I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/511602805_XsmPQ-600x10000.jpg)
Many Jacksonvillians still believe that Jacksonville is too small and not dense enough for rail. Here is a list of American cities and their rail systems that will put this inaccurate argument to rest.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/1060
The same arguments we have seen used in Jacksonville over and over, have been and were used in all of these cities that now have rail. The only way to overcome this opposition is leadership from the top and a professional ad campaign to convince the populace it is a worth while investment in infrastructure....
Do we have a breakdown of which city council members support rail or has no one weighed in on this?
When you talk to so many people they think only New York and Chicago have or can support transit.
^Imo, that's because people don't travel as much to these lower tier cities or when they do, they tend to not pay attention to things like this. In places like New York and Chicago, the physical environment makes using transit the easier option, even for hardcore suburbanites. Nevertheless, just because many of these places (ex. Salt Lake City, Charlotte, etc.) don't have rail options as extensive as the big boys (ex. NYC, Chicago, San Francisco, etc.), does not mean they aren't successful in what they do have. With proper planning and integration, success can happen in Jacksonville as well.
Quote from: Deuce on April 14, 2009, 09:12:27 AM
Do we have a breakdown of which city council members support rail or has no one weighed in on this?
There are a few that standout. Councilman Bishop and Councilwoman Johnson immediately come to mind. There are others as well. I believe the majority can be bought on board if a real plan with an affordable phasing strategy, touting the economic benefits, were presented. I also believe, that if JTA can come on board, the council would approve changing the BJP transit $100 million to be used for more than ROW acquisition.
I was in New Orleans last week, and either rode the streetcar, or walked the entire visit.
(Taxi to and from airport).
We spent less than a third of what it would have been for a rental car.
I'm a total streetcar believer now.
what will people do on here once we do have rail?
seems like everyother day a new report or thread is made about it.
just saying.
Then it will be how terrible it is, it goes no where, costs too much and no one rides!!! haha
The vision is that it will become a integral part of the solution in changing Jacksonville's sprawl growth patterns, preserving our environmentally sensitive areas and creating a better community that takes our region to the next level of economic prosperity.
By doing this, we've helped expose the S-Line ROW as a mass transit corridor, fuel JTA commuter rail and streetcar studies and have already saved taxpayers hundreds of millions by altering a plan that called for building dedicated busways all over town and through the heart of downtown's most vibrant streets.
We have the ability to tackle long standing, misguided arguments that have held this community back for decades. Also, very few media outlets cover this important infrastructure subject on regular basis, despite the fact that this is the time to move forward, considering the Washington's new view on the subject.
Opportunity is knocking. We're just trying to do whatever we can to force Jax to open the door.
Quote from: fsujax on April 14, 2009, 12:09:44 PM
Then it will be how terrible it is, it goes no where, costs too much and no one rides!!! haha
Which is why we continue to hit JTA over the head with route/design selection and affordable funding solutions on topics like the streetcar, commuter rail and Amtrak. To make sure the argument mentioned in the quote does not take place, its important that the initial selected rail corridors are virtually guaranteed to be a success. Both in terms of ridership and fiscal responsibility.
Quote from: fsu813 on April 14, 2009, 11:56:20 AM
what will people do on here once we do have rail?
seems like everyother day a new report or thread is made about it.
just saying.
We'll argue about what soft drinks should be called then. No it's soda, no it's sprite! No it's pop!
MetroJax has been adamant about pushing light rail/alternative transportation since...for as long as I can remember. It's good to see someone taking interest in it, even if it's just at a grass roots level right now. I don’t know enough on the subject so I usually just read about the alt transit articles without commenting, but it does seem apparent that the city has no interest in this for the near future.....unless someone can show proof they are otherwise.
I think the city is being forced to deal with it. Five years ago, there was no talk about commuter rail and streetcars. We were ignorantly setting ourselves up to spend a billion on dedicated busways. While the Mayor's office may be more interested in a landfill becoming their legacy project, we have grown to the point of where JTA is working rail into their plans. There's even talk about supporting enhanced Amtrak service.
When we started this site a few years back, JTA was fighting our rail argument every chance they got. Comments ranged from the S-Line being too "curvy" for rail, Jax not dense enough and rail is too expensive to we'll build BRT first, then convert it into light rail. One by one, we crushed those wobbly curve balls right out the park by showing real examples that proved otherwise. At the very least, that silliness has ceased from our transit agency.
Now we just have to continue to hit the Mayor's office over the head until they embrace the message.
and when it comes to commuter rail, getting the other counties on-board is a must....many folks in Nassau, Clay, and St. Johns have projects like the outer beltway (north and south) and 9B as their top prioirities!
Quote from: fsujax on April 14, 2009, 12:09:44 PM
Then it will be how terrible it is, it goes no where, costs too much and no one rides!!! haha
Really, who would do that? ;D
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 14, 2009, 06:11:10 PM
and when it comes to commuter rail, getting the other counties on-board is a must....many folks in Nassau, Clay, and St. Johns have projects like the outer beltway (north and south) and 9B as their top prioirities!
Clay is on board they have said it publicly, set aside land for a commuter rail station and even had conceptual plans made.
St. Johns has similar conceptual plans as well. There were some renderings posted a while back for a multimodal station across form the St. Augustine airport with a pedestrian walkway connecting the two.
Jacksonville HAS to lead the march on this one. The surrounding counties will line up to cash in.
that doesn't mean they understand the best way to get rail to work is to increase density....and not build new suburbs surrounding the outer beltway!
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 15, 2009, 10:37:51 PM
that doesn't mean they understand the best way to get rail to work is to increase density....and not build new suburbs surrounding the outer beltway!
Agreed. The Outer Beltway will ruin life in St. Johns and Clay Counties by creating urban sprawl, more uncontrolled growth, lots of people without a lot of jobs, and a bunch of noisy truck traffic in a rush to get from I-10 to I-95 or vice versa. What's the point? It will just elevate the endless cycle of building catch-up infrastructure pursuing growth. No one will be happy, except all us I-295ers seeing all the trucks et. al. move to the outer beltway.
There are many other projects that would be superior to this road subsidy to speculative land owners and developers.
Are they planning to force trucks to use this tollway? If not, why would truck traffic use the Outer Beltway? There is no significant industry in Clay & St. Johns, the road will be toll and its a longer trip, than using 295 to access 10 and 95.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2009, 11:34:22 PM
Are they planning to force trucks to use this tollway? If not, why would truck traffic use the Outer Beltway? There is no significant industry in Clay & St. Johns, the road will be toll and its a longer trip, than using 295 to access 10 and 95.
Lake, distance isn't the only criteria for selecting a route. Congestion is also a consideration. Why would a trucker get any closer to the higher density Jax core than necessary if its just a bit longer to avoid it?
And your point about no industry in Clay and St. Johns for the "bypass" trucker will help assure less traffic and corresponding congestion on the outer beltway vs. I-295 which runs by lots of higher density residential and big Jax office parks and developments. That is, at least until growth overwhelms it. But then, Jax growth will have a corresponding boost to I-295 traffic. At any given point in time, I will assume the Outer Beltway will always lag I-295 in traffic count/congestion.
Time is money. How much? will be determined by any tolls set.
P.S. How much longer will it be to take the outer beltway from say, its origination at I-10 to its end point at I-95 versus connecting those same points by going through Jax via either I-10 to I-95 or via I-10 to I-295 to I-95 to that point at the far end?
I don't think congestion on 295 is enough for someone to justify paying toll for a longer/more time consuming trip. If people want to continue to make the argument that there is no congestion in Jax to justify rail, then there is definitely not enough congestion to justify a +$2 billion, 30 mile loop highway. I'd rather project backers just admit, this thing's main purpose is to open virgin land up for development purposes.
agreed...especially when we're talking about a $10 - $12 toll for cars that go all the way from I-10 to I-95....and usually trucks are at least three times more than the car price.
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I'd rather...
If we MUST spend $2 to $3 BILLION on completely new roadways this is what I'd do:
Arlington Expressway - widen to 6 lanes + 2 transit lanes + 4 access lanes, Regency to I-95
MLK/20TH Expy. - widen to 6 lanes Edgewood - Hart Bridge + new interchange Haines & 20Th +
From this interchange, a 4 lane spur to Talleyrand and another to Buffalo
Emerson Expy - From the South End of the Emerson Connector, straighten it out and skirt the park
reaching I-95 between current Emerson St Exit and University.
From Emerson Connector at Comadore Point Expy, full interchange, continue North
OVER wetlands to University Alignment and Interchange with Arlington Expy.
Comadore Point Expy - Extend along Hogans Road-Southward to Southside at/near Gate Pkwy.
From Gate Pkwy/Southside jct to JTB, make SS a limited access Expy.
JAXPORT EXPY- Use former I-95/Zoo connectors to Hecksher Drive, Improve Hecksher to 6 lane
Limited Access + access Lanes + 2 track Rail Right-of-way to Atlantic Marine.
I-22 - - Lobby hard and work with Georgia/Alabama to reconnect the Jacksonville/JAXPORT
leg of I-22 (JAX-VALD-COL-BIRMHM-MEMPHS-SPRNGFLD-KCY) With the Birmingham
Jacksonville leg containing HSR in median. Work with GADOT to immediately start
a 4 lane, pre-limited access highway from JAX - VALDOSTA. (GADOT is already
working on VALDOSTA-COLUMBUS)
OCKLAWAHA
Some of you guys have nothing better than to invent new reasons for rail. Forget the education system, forget crime, forget the fact that Mayor wants to sell the City down the river for 30 years, we must have rail now........
Great!
Fort Smith, Arkansas - Great find!
QuoteA trolley bus operates in the downtown area, providing transportation between the Belle Grove Historic District and the Fort Smith National Historic Site.
A trolley BUS, not rail, a BUS.
And their NEW transportation HUB of $775,000 was/is entirely paid for in construction AND design with Federal dollars. It is no larger than a station along the JTA people mover system.
Use the buses here to prove we have the need for rail. Otherwise shoot this animal, put it out of its misery.
QuoteIf people want to continue to make the argument that there is no congestion in Jax to justify rail, then there is definitely not enough congestion to justify a +$2 billion, 30 mile loop highway.
That 9A/295 was planned long before you were born, so hands off.
If you want to complain about the outer loop from 1-10 to somewhere south....it will surely be a toll road, no one has funds for that kind of road system outlay.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 17, 2009, 02:24:39 AM
Fort Smith, Arkansas - Great find! QuoteA trolley bus operates in the downtown area, providing transportation between the Belle Grove Historic District and the Fort Smith National Historic Site.
A trolley BUS, not rail, a BUS.
And their NEW transportation HUB of $775,000 was/is entirely paid for in construction AND design with Federal dollars. It is no larger than a station along the JTA people mover system.
Someone did not do their homework. :D Here's an image of the "bus" the article referred to. This "bus" on steel wheels is small line operated and maintained by the Fort Smith Trolley Museum. I'll be happy when we can add a "bus" like this to Jacksonville's landscape.
(http://www.fstm.org/sm224postcard.jpg)
http://www.fstm.org/
The trolley bus is not my first choice, but yeah, I'd definitely take that in our downtown, both figuratively and literally.
QuoteSomeone did not do their homework. Here's an image of the "bus" the article referred to. This "bus" on steel wheels is small line operated and maintained by the Fort Smith Trolley Museum.
QuoteThe Fort Smith Trolley Museum is a railroad museum in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Located at 100 South 4th Street, the museum collection includes four streetcars which operated in municipal service in Fort Smith, an open streetcar, as well as a Frisco steam locomotive. The museum also operates a heritage railroad and runs excursions in the Fort Smith National Historic Site using a Birney streetcar.
Shades of gray, I did the homework alright, you just decided your version of a "trolley". Oh, and there are 4 trolleys, not 2 trolleys which are NOT considered public transportation, rather a museum ride. Who knows, if you want, you can even lobby to ring the trolley bell, provided you are over 18 years of age.
That trolley is maintained by a Museum, with people buying museum passes. It is not a dependable form of public transportation. Perhaps the dinner train ride coming up on May 2nd could pass as the commuter rail you speak of between Van Buren, Arkansas and Winslow, but you would have to pay for the gourmet meal, lively entertainment with the beautiful Arkansas countryside as your only free token.
You forgot the Frisco locomotive, are we going to use that for high speed rail one day as well?
^Is it not something running on rails? There was never a prerequisite of whether a line had to be dependable public transit 24/7. This was simply a list of places smaller than Jax, with some form of passenger rail in place. This may be over your head, but with Jax, the list offers several examples of how to potentially get something up and running. If you were able to view this topic with an open mind, you would find that a few other rail-based systems in our peer cities, had similar origins.
Dallas - M-Line TrolleyA small volunteer streetcar line that opened in 1989. Since then, Dallas has added light rail, commuter rail (both opened in 1996) and extended the volunteer streetcar line to become a critical component of that city's urban core mass transit offerings.
Charlotte - Charlotte Trolley Charlotte's Trolley opened as a small 1.8 mile demonstration project in 1996. At that point, the trolley only operated on the weekends. What began as a six month trial project now includes the trolley and the successful 9.6 mile LYNX light rail starter line most are impressed with today.
Tucson - Old Pueblo TrolleyThe Old Pueblo Trolley opened in 1993 and runs through downtown's streets during weekends only. What began as a tourist train has now been incorporated into a transit plan that calls for upgrading the line to become a part of a larger modern streetcar network. At this time, the line is currently in the process of being expanded.
Fort Smith - pop. 80,268QuoteIn 1984, a dilapidated Kansas City Birney car, #1545, had become available and was acquired for the wheels, motors and controls. Thanks to local corporate support, private gifts from over 500 people in 20 states, knowledge and encouragement from rail museums across the country, and thousands of volunteer hours, car #224 started and ran under its own power on Christmas Day of 1990, using the museum's power supply.
After completion of the necessary overhead wire system to carry the 600 volt DC current, car #224 officially began operating on May 19,1991. The route ran 1,200 feet from the Fort Smith Trolley Museum to the Old Fort Museum (now called the Fort Smith Museum of History) and back again on abandoned Frisco Freight Systems spur track.
More track was added in 1993, running from the museum to the entrance of Fort Smith National Cemetery. In 1997, the track was extended about a block in the other direction, from the Museum of History to a new stop on Garrison Avenue next to the Varsity Sports Grill. Since then, with the help of the City of Fort Smith, it has grown even further, reaching down Garrison Avenue to the front of Ross Pendergraft Park, which is northeast of the Fort Smith National Historic Site at the base of the Garrison Avenue Bridge.
The Fort Smith Trolley Museum now has 4 of the original 58 Fort Smith streetcars.
http://www.fstm.org/about.html
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/GarrisonFSM.jpg/800px-GarrisonFSM.jpg)
An image of Downtown Fort Smith's main commercial street with one of the trolley museum's extended lines running parallel. Just because its operated by the trolley museum, don't assume its operates behind a gate like the Jax Zoo Railroad.So what is the point?The point is there are examples out there how to get rail started. While I believe there are better examples out there to follow, than Fort Smith (we're sitting on $100 million after all), it is a city that is smaller than Jacksonville that has a streetcar line in place. Which was the exact topic of the article.