I guess things could be worse than they are locally. Detroit's leaders are considering using federal stimulus dollars to demolish the long vacant, yet historic Michigan Central Station.
QuoteDetroit Council votes to demolish Michigan Central Depot, charge owner
(http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C3&Date=20080408&Category=BIZ&ArtNo=804080348&Ref=AR)
Detroit -- City Council today passed a resolution calling for the emergency demolition of the Michigan Central Depot and then going after billionaire owner Manny Maroun to recoup the costs.
Mayor Kenneth Cockrel Jr. has already put the demolition in his request for federal economic stimulus funds and vowed to go after the building's owner to be reimbursed
However, council members want to expedite the process.
"We can't wait any longer," said Councilwoman Barbara-Rose Collins, who sponsored the resolution. "It's been an eyesore for too long."
Cockrel had asked for $3.6 million for the demolition. Collins said that money could be used for the neighborhoods.
Chimed in Council President Monica Conyers: "He has billions."
The City Council passed the resolution by a voice vote, and there was no opposition. Only Councilwoman Brenda Jones, who is hospitalized with a pulmonary embolism, was absent.
The law department will present a report on how the resolution can be enforced when the City Council returns from its spring recess on April 28.
Dan Stamper, a spokesman for Maroun and his companies, did not immediately return a call for comment.
Cockrel's press secretary, Daniel Cherrin, said the mayor is still moving forward with his plan. He is not sure of a timetable to raze the train station, but said any stimulus project must be shovel-ready in 120 days and completed within 18 months.
"This would happen very soon," he said.
The building has been vacant since Jan. 6, 1988, when Amtrak discontinued using it for rail service. It was purchased by Controlled Terminal Inc., owned by Maroun, for back taxes.
At times, Maroun has touted it be used as a casino, a replacement for Cobo Center and at one point former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick said he had selected the fenced-off compound as the city's new criminal justice facility.
David Josar / The Detroit News
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Q-PuSGjFHvY/SL5kJXd6-hI/AAAAAAAAB1s/jQ-ie47qp9k/s640/2806658055_8c1d0390ac_o.jpg)
http://apatheticlemming.blogspot.com/2009/03/abandoned-train-station-michigan.html
MCS in 1921
(http://michpics.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/michigan-central-station-1921.jpg)
MCS today
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/509265730_hj3tj-L.jpg)
Wow. that is crazy. I guess things could be worse here!
This is a crime against history. What reason would I have to go to Detroit if I couldn't do some rail history touring? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN DETROIT. Wonder if we could do a quickie poll and share this with their mayor?
BTW, another threatened station is Oklahoma City Union Station, while the building is fairly secure, the entire concourse area is to be blown down for a new freeway alignment. This is OKC's most logical station as the state joins California with a "Rail Oklahoma" train plan. They are having themselves a WAR!
Expect to see the same from Buffalo, the grand old NYC station was built into the suburbs and the City never grew enough to bring it within downtown. Today it stands like an empty fortress in the desert of sprawl.
OCKLAWAHA
This is a huge mistake for Detroit.
Buffalo has a beautiful building, but the isolated location kills it. Nevertheless, a non-profit purchased it in 1997 for a dollar to save it from demolition. I've heard they have spent the last decade shoring it up to at least have special events in it.
Buffalo Central Station
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Buffalo_Central_Terminal_1.jpg/744px-Buffalo_Central_Terminal_1.jpg)
An event inside of the BCS
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/509410814_A4LC6-L.jpg)
Such a waste to tear that beauty down.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/60/205371500_1a35179e63.jpg)
(http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/FIP/OK-00051-C~Union-Station-Oklahoma-City-Oklahoma-Posters.jpg)
Oklahoma City Union Station is in danger too. From the back door will be 15 feet of Right-of-Way for a single track, and the rest of the 10 track yard will become I-40. Sadly this station makes more sense then the current Amtrak station near Bricktown, as the state explores Amtrak Oklahoma. All other railroads served Union Station, and the tracks, tunnels and platforms are still in place.
OCKLAWAHA
We already know Detroit had a corrupt mayor. The managment of the Big 3 have been incompetent for decades and now its finally hitting home. This just shows that Detroit is one of the most completely mis-managed areas of the country - both in the public and private sectors. Jax is far from perfect, but we live by the addage that there is always someone else with bigger problems than ours!
The only other city in America that is as mismanged as Detroit, historically, is New Orleans. And, do you know what Detroit and New Orleans have in common back to their founding? Both were organized by the French! Maybe that's Jax's (Fort Caroline) problem too. :D
QuoteIn the 1600's, France began establishing forts at strategic locations in North America, in order to try to keep the British from moving west out of New England and to establish a monopoly on trade. Antoine de la Mothe Cadillac felt that the area that had become known as le detroit, or the straits, was an obvious location for a major post. The river was narrow enough that a cannon could be fired from one side to the other, but substantial enough to provide a defense. The surrounding Great Lakes and waterways meant easy travel from most major points. The court in France agreed, and Cadillac was allowed to establish a settlement at the Detroit River in 1701.
Fort Ponchartrain, the settlement built by Cadillac, was not likely the first settlement in the area, though little is known about any previous inhabitants. Some early explorers reported evidence of Jesuits and coureurs de bois in the area; others reported evidence of Native American settlements. Previous to that, a people known as the Mound Builders lived in the area.
From: http://www.historydetroit.com/part_1.asp
Where was all this sense of pride and wanting to save something when the Beaver Street Switch station was bulldozed to make way for the widened US90/Beaver Street back in the 90s?
Is anyone left in Detroit? Tear it down if no one will use it. Mark my words, the Laura Trio will face the same demise, unless someone comes and rescues them over the next real estate cycle. They have sat empty for too long and will also face the wrecking ball, for a parking lot, if we are not careful. No charitable group has the money to save them either, and the City does not have the money to keep funding John Keene's pet projects at the Pension either.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 11, 2009, 01:00:27 AM
Where was all this sense of pride and wanting to save something when the Beaver Street Switch station was bulldozed to make way for the widened US90/Beaver Street back in the 90s?
Mtrain, that historic Beaver Street switch station (probably over 100 years old) you refer to disappeared without any notice or fanfare that I know of. I suspect CSX and FDOT conspired for their mutual convenience to demolish it in the dark of night. "Here today, gone tomorrow."
Someone (Ock, Lake?) should see if proper demolition permits and approvals were obtained for it. By the way, I believe the demolition was around 1999 or 2000.
If I recall, the building is featured in Wayne Wood's Architectural Heritage book as well. Ock or Lake could probably add a bit more.Below is a great shot of the old railroad yards. The Jacksonville Farmers Market original buildings are in the bottom foreground and the switch building you refer to is along side the overpass between the tracks. McCoys Creek is seen clearly to the right. This is all before I-95 or I-10 so I would date it late 40's to early 50's.(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/rfisher/RF00060.jpg)
In the picture below, it is more easily seen in the very bottom left corner. By the way, you can see the Railway Express facilities where JTA's headquarters are now.(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/rfisher/RF00012.jpg)
Imagine demolishing the Prime F. Osborne Convention Center with no good reason...you can see my point. This is crazy and it's a beautiful building. I am sure they can find some good use for it but I guess stimulus funds or "money in someone's eyes" with no immediate planned use for it over rules that.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 10, 2009, 10:17:54 AM
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/60/205371500_1a35179e63.jpg)
(http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/FIP/OK-00051-C~Union-Station-Oklahoma-City-Oklahoma-Posters.jpg)
Oklahoma City Union Station is in danger too. From the back door will be 15 feet of Right-of-Way for a single track, and the rest of the 10 track yard will become I-40. Sadly this station makes more sense then the current Amtrak station near Bricktown, as the state explores Amtrak Oklahoma. All other railroads served Union Station, and the tracks, tunnels and platforms are still in place.
OCKLAWAHA
Another lovely, historic building going the way of the bulldozer.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: thelakelander on April 10, 2009, 12:43:19 AM
I guess things could be worse than they are locally. Detroit's leaders are considering using federal stimulus dollars to demolish the long vacant, yet historic Michigan Central Station.
QuoteDetroit Council votes to demolish Michigan Central Depot, charge owner
(http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C3&Date=20080408&Category=BIZ&ArtNo=804080348&Ref=AR)
Detroit -- City Council today passed a resolution calling for the emergency demolition of the Michigan Central Depot and then going after billionaire owner Manny Maroun to recoup the costs.
Mayor Kenneth Cockrel Jr. has already put the demolition in his request for federal economic stimulus funds and vowed to go after the building's owner to be reimbursed
However, council members want to expedite the process.
"We can't wait any longer," said Councilwoman Barbara-Rose Collins, who sponsored the resolution. "It's been an eyesore for too long."
Cockrel had asked for $3.6 million for the demolition. Collins said that money could be used for the neighborhoods.
Chimed in Council President Monica Conyers: "He has billions."
The City Council passed the resolution by a voice vote, and there was no opposition. Only Councilwoman Brenda Jones, who is hospitalized with a pulmonary embolism, was absent.
The law department will present a report on how the resolution can be enforced when the City Council returns from its spring recess on April 28.
Dan Stamper, a spokesman for Maroun and his companies, did not immediately return a call for comment.
Cockrel's press secretary, Daniel Cherrin, said the mayor is still moving forward with his plan. He is not sure of a timetable to raze the train station, but said any stimulus project must be shovel-ready in 120 days and completed within 18 months.
"This would happen very soon," he said.
The building has been vacant since Jan. 6, 1988, when Amtrak discontinued using it for rail service. It was purchased by Controlled Terminal Inc., owned by Maroun, for back taxes.
At times, Maroun has touted it be used as a casino, a replacement for Cobo Center and at one point former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick said he had selected the fenced-off compound as the city's new criminal justice facility.
David Josar / The Detroit News
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Q-PuSGjFHvY/SL5kJXd6-hI/AAAAAAAAB1s/jQ-ie47qp9k/s640/2806658055_8c1d0390ac_o.jpg)
http://apatheticlemming.blogspot.com/2009/03/abandoned-train-station-michigan.html
The sideview of this building reminds me of 11 East (11E) (old AHL Building).
Heights Unknown
It is a crying shame that a building like that can just be removed without fanfare or thought to a future use. There are any number of possibilities that a building like that could be used for and for some reason the land appears to be more valuable than a building that was designed to last. They do not make them like that anymore since we have gone to a disposable economy!
Detroit is a special case. Without seeing the city in person, its hard to see why many of their old grand buildings won't make it. They have 135 square miles of buildings just like this and larger, that have been abandoned and left open to the elements for decades. With nearly 1 million less people than what they had in 1950, they will unfortunately lose a lot more.
Your correct lake! Less will mean even less in the future.............Jacksonville will be going in that direction if the current Administration continues on the path they have chosen......no vision and no plan equals a downturn which we may not be able to recover from!
I notice that all of those old stations had office towers connected to them above the concourses. Where they hotels or just rental offices for people who wanted to be close to the transportation hubs? Was there enough railroad business to need such big buildings?
(http://www.zimride.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/abandoned-train-station.jpg)
Buffalo, NY Central Station
(http://sitemaker.umich.edu/stephen.mahler/files/train_station2.jpg)
Detroit, Michigan Central Station
Lake a smashing new rumor is circulating all through the passenger rail industry. While I'll believe it when I see it, it IS very interesting.
New York City tore down the great headhouse of Penn Station and replaced the upper structure with Madison Square Gardens. The depot, if you can call it that, is just the 4 levels BELOW the old station (yes, there were four floors of boarding tracks, though not all 4 were ever used). There has been mounting outcry from the citizens to replace the gardens with a REAL station once again. At least we know the public outcry part is true!
This is where it gets either funny or weird, depending on your point of view... The talk is, certain New York investors have looked at the Michigan Central Station in Detroit, and plan to remove it block by block. Supposedly it will be reconstructed (like the London Bridge was) over the tracks at Penn Station. Yeah, it's too fantastic to really believe, but it has been done before.
Frankly, if I were in New York City, and this had a shred of truth to it, I'd be looking at Buffalo's abandoned giant, it's much closer. I'm also certain that the MTA in New York has both the locomotives (diesel) and flat cars to pull this off using dedicated equipment. Chances are, unless Trump or some similar high rollers are involved, we'll probably never hear anymore about this subject... But the "what if" is a killer!
(http://www.jacksonvilleterminal.com/Moncrief%20Tower.jpg)
On a side note, the loss of Beaver Street Tower and the Myrtle Ave Interlocking tower, is inexcusable. This photo shows the early day inside workings of the towers. In later years it was done with push buttons. Photo: Mine.
OCKALWAHA
Ock, did those big levers control the switches directly with cables or something or were they electric switches of some sort. It they worked with cable across the whole yard that dude was STRONG!
Funny about moving an old station into New York. When I looked at the Detroit station my first thought was how it would make a great courthouse for Jax. Doubt if it could be relocated for $350 million though. Too bad, it is a much better looking building than what we are going to have.
(http://www.geocities.com/findinglincolnillinois/railroadpageimages/icpassengerdepotcoloredpc500.jpg)
Tower in Illinois, note the swith rods along side the track. (http://www.jlcenterprises.net/images/bk_lg.jpg)
Yes, it's a model, but it WORKS. This is a carbon copy of what a typical control board looked like, note that all of this is tied into the signals. In the case of yard or station trackage, those signals were on a bridge, or were dwarfs.
(http://www.geocities.com/mcivory2000/dwarf3.jpg)
Jacksonville Terminal style dwarf signal, in congested area's these won't swipe your man off the side of a rail car! Our Skyway, which has manual controls under the locked panel in the dash, has a system of Dwarfs. (http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/magazine/102/signal-bridge-2461.jpg)
Okay, this is my club! Another model, but the signal bridge just ahead of the train, is fully functionalQuote from: Dog Walker on October 11, 2009, 12:00:43 PM
Ock, did those big levers control the switches directly with cables or something or were they electric switches of some sort. It they worked with cable across the whole yard that dude was STRONG!
100% manual, but it wasn't done with wire (the levers must push or pull, so wire is out of the question). Long "switch rods" tied the levers to the tower operators. At ground level sometimes a dozen or more rods would run side by side, before ducking under to the next track switch. Generally the rods were covered under sheet metal housings, and the Maintenance boys kept everything soaked in grease. The average old independent switch stand usually had/has a handle on it that weighs in at 60-90 pounds, imagine that, added to 1/4 mile of heavy steel rods. Strong men might even be putting it mildly. After push buttons for electric switch motors replaced the old lever system, it was just a matter of time until the Central Traffic Control took command in the digital age. Today the track can be lined for CSX from a remote office complex. Meanwhile over on the FEC or Norfolk Southern, those same type of tracks are done with digital remote switching, from corporate operations in Norfolk, or New Smyrna Beach. Cities all over the globe have saved their old towers, but the lack of brain activity in love starved Jacksonville, has cost America's 5Th largest Rail Center, and the historic hub of all of Florida, any chance to preserve our transportation past. Frankly, the maritime museum in the phone booth across the river in downtown, is suffering the same fate.... Our museum of the BLUE ANGELS, the one we don't have, is another dropped ball. OCKLAWAHA
It is truly a shame. Someday, with the mentality that has long run this city, we may see our own terminal come down. We as a nation put little regard to our historic buildings, compared to other Countries/Cities. A portion of this building (the Detroit Terminal) has an amazing similarity to our own...that being the lower level part. What a shame. O well, I better keep my mouth shut or I ll be slammed again for being a historic building hugger :)Seems if they have 3.5 Million, that money should be used towards saving, not tearing it down. We do not build buildings with this type of durability any longer. This is part of the throw-away world we live in ,that I personally despise. I know Detroit is suffering... But to raze something as beautiful as that forever should be criminal.
Quote from: Dog Walker on October 11, 2009, 12:02:59 PM
Funny about moving an old station into New York. When I looked at the Detroit station my first thought was how it would make a great courthouse for Jax. Doubt if it could be relocated for $350 million though. Too bad, it is a much better looking building than what we are going to have.
EXACTLY, DW! Id far rather see this building revived, than what is being assembled as we speak downtown. Did we REALLY need that Courthouse?
Yeah, we kinda did need a new courthouse. The current one is over 50 years old and is costing a lot of money to keep up.
Ok....let me put it another way... Did we need a new Courthouse that was this sprawling and expensive to build? Are we going to turn into another Detroit? or have we already?
Quote from: Timkin on July 06, 2010, 09:36:50 PM
Ok....let me put it another way... Did we need a new Courthouse that was this sprawling and expensive to build? Are we going to turn into another Detroit? or have we already?
Ok, how does a courthouse tie into a Detroit comparison?
Maybe it does not.. but a reduction in working population in the Downtown area, and many of the buildings razed for surface/ground parking. Sorry.. no offense intended.. I just wondered if spending the money on that massive Courthouse was wise at this juncture?(thinking outloud mainly) Sorry.
Timkin..........I'm with you on this one! I still have not quite figured out just how John Boy is preparing to pay the additional money beyond the voter approved $190 Million? What is the cost projected to this point $350 Million Dollars? City of Jacksonville is $58 Million Dollars in the hole next budget cycle last I heard and no matter what set of books John Boy uses, we are going to be short plain and simple! If that little bugger had to pay for things out of his pocket, I would bet he would be a lot more frugal, efficient and cost conscience!
QuoteOn a side note, the loss of Beaver Street Tower and the Myrtle Ave Interlocking tower, is inexcusable.
Ock, you should investigate this. I believe the Beaver Street Tower "disappeared" in the dead of night somewhere around 2000 to 2001 when FDOT replaced the Beaver Street Viaduct. I don't think it was in the way but I heard CSX was able to rearrange some of its trackage in conjunction with FDOT engineering the bridge. Maybe they covered for each other.
Would this building have been covered by Jax's Historic Building rules? LOL, I wonder what building is after seeing how many get torn down anyway. One would hope someone within CSX would have a little sentimentality for its industry's past and spoken up to save some of these buildings. Railroads sure don't mind letting oil, creosote, and other waste along the tracks sit there forever.
My bet is it was not a named Landmark and accordingly they could dismantle it without permission. That is what happened to the majority of beautiful old buildings of this city. Torn down. no regard whatsoever for their elegance, or design or durability... Just replaced by glass and concrete structures that do not have any beauty at all, or replaced by a void to park cars on, or Parking garages.
Quote from: CS Foltz on July 06, 2010, 10:59:15 PM
Timkin..........I'm with you on this one! I still have not quite figured out just how John Boy is preparing to pay the additional money beyond the voter approved $190 Million? What is the cost projected to this point $350 Million Dollars? City of Jacksonville is $58 Million Dollars in the hole next budget cycle last I heard and no matter what set of books John Boy uses, we are going to be short plain and simple! If that little bugger had to pay for things out of his pocket, I would bet he would be a lot more frugal, efficient and cost conscience!
People like that have no regard for the taxpayer. They are rich and getting richer. THEY DO NOT CARE about the Average or poor. or how long decisions like this affect them... They are unaffected by it, and so they could care less.
Yes...........that is about it in a nutshell! This is what is refered to as the disconnect between elected officials and the public that put them into office! John Boy is a lame duck and he acts just like it!
A very wealthy lame duck.. You know, if he really wanted to redeem himself, he would donate some of his millions into restoration projects or some realistic plan that would actually benefit the masses, and not just the rich.