Littlepage makes good points, but he should already know what should be done with the Prime Osborn. It needs to go back to it's original use.
QuoteIt's a good time to dream.
A saying currently in vogue, on both sides of the partisan divide, goes like this: "A good crisis shouldn't go to waste."
Well, the current financial crisis can't last forever, fingers crossed, so why not begin planning now for the better times that are ahead?
A good place to start is the riverfront site of the current county courthouse.
Like it or not, the new county courthouse is going to be built at a cost almost double of what was promised in the Better Jacksonville Plan.
The word around City Hall is that the guaranteed maximum price for the courthouse will meet the $350 million ceiling the City Council has approved and construction could begin next month.
With that in mind, planning should begin now on what will happen with the current courthouse site.
First - as I said, let's dream - a good portion of what is now the courthouse parking lot should be converted into a landscaped public space that ties into and adds another destination point to the Northbank Riverwalk.
As for the rest of the property, a long discussed and hotly debated idea should be revisited - a new convention center.
Clearly, the Prime Osborn isn't working as a convention center.
Even with the economy in the doldrums and little money available to be spent, Mayor John Peyton should spend the final two years of his administration developing a plan.
He should determine if a new convention center is the way to go, if the old courthouse and old City Hall sites, both complemented by the Hyatt Regency, would work best as a convention center site, what the economic impact would be and how a convention center would be financed.
Peyton could tie the package up in a bow and hand it off to the new mayor, who hopefully will have a better economy to deal with.
In fact, whether to build a new convention center and what to do with the Prime Osborn could become part of the mayoral campaign.
The downtown riverfront, on both sides of the St. Johns, is developing into the city's centerpiece. A convention center could add even more activity to the area.
Peyton should also look across the river to the Southbank and solidify plans to improve the decrepit riverwalk there, including the area around Friendship Fountain.
And, if some federal stimulus money can be snagged, that work could be done before Peyton leaves office in 2011.
Two of the priorities Peyton has set for the rest of his term involve creating jobs and focusing on the river, not only its health but improving public access to it.
Both of these ideas would fit the bill.
Don't waste a crisis. Dream a little.
Dreams can become reality with planning and work.
http://www.jacksonville.com/opinion/columnists/ron_littlepage/2009-04-09/story/a_riverfront_convention_center_can_become_reality
I dont always agree with the guy and he only addresses half of the problem but every little bit helps...
QuoteWith that in mind, planning should begin now on what will happen with the current courthouse site.
This should have already begun...
I do agree with Littlepage on this one. The City should be planning right now, what to do with the old Courthouse site and how to integrate that whole area along Bay St, the Hyatt, Landing and Shipyards! now is the time to plan.
I don't think we need any more greens space, but if there was a convention center there along with a mixed use retail/ housing area as well, it would be a nice Riverwalk stopping point. Come on city managemant. What will it take to put a Convention center here? Can we raise bed taxes to finance it? Let us know a plan.
Agree Ron, we need to GET THAT CONVENTION CENTER OUT OF THE JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL! Then cut down the size of the newer Convention Center Building and convert it to Bus, Motor Coach and Rail use. Certainly the "Bold" 3 track station will assure that Orlando - NOT JACKSONVILLE will be the rail hub of the South. Incredible because we have it in our hands and inaction is seen as no interest at Amtrak and Washington DC. We can build the 10 track terminal or Orlando can... We have the building already in place and rebuilt, all we need is track and platforms + service facilities. Orlando will have to reinvent the wheel, pick a site, and build a massive terminal from the ground up.
Right now, NOW, NOW, NOW, For once we are far ahead of ANY other Southern City as far as a terminal station is concerned. NOW, we either act or get off the stage.
OCKLAWAHA
Can the current courthouse and old city hall annex buildings be gutted and reused? Can the property go on the tax rolls like the Hayden Burns library?
"Peyton leaves office in 2011" I like the sound of that. Perhaps we can get a mayor with a vision!
Littlepage lives in the same fantasyland that his employer does "FTU". They are smoking and drinking the same stuff. Instead of dreaming, the ought to be doing, and he needs to get his but down to CIty hall and make sure that the Courthouse is done right, before blowing smoke over new projects that are dead last to completion. The courthouse will put 10x the workers to work, over renovating the Prime.
Quote from: fsujax on April 09, 2009, 01:17:11 PM
I do agree with Littlepage on this one. The City should be planning right now, what to do with the old Courthouse site and how to integrate that whole area along Bay St, the Hyatt, Landing and Shipyards! now is the time to plan.
Yeah, it should have already been done, but what is or has been done is done and over...so let's move on and start planning for the new Convention Center now, along with what to do with the Prime Osborne Train Depot once the Convention Center moves. Also, if the plan is not for a new Convention Center on the old Court House plot on the Riverfront, then let's look at some other type of development that will spur growth/development in that area...i.e., don't let that space go to waste!
So Mayor Petyon, in all due respect get off your a** and get to work!
Heights Unknown
I agree Ocklawaha with your post; Jax has and is always portraying itself as the "Big City that can't;" we need to get off of that Bandwagon but we won't until we get a leader that can lead, that has vision, and that is willing to lead with an even bigger vision than what his Administration or the Citizens can even fathom. The current head of the Jacksonville City Government is not that man. Can't wait until 2011 (if the world holds up).
We are supposedly a major city in this nation but we sure don't look it or act like it.
Heights Unknown
(http://www.herecomestheguide.com/images/location/LosAngelesUnionStation/LosAngelesUnionStation1.jpg)
One of the many fine shops and restaurants in the Los Angeles Union Station complex. Get it Jacksonville?
QuoteRon Littlepage
Clearly, the Prime Osborn isn't working as a convention center.
Even with the economy in the doldrums and little money available to be spent, Mayor John Peyton should spend the final two years of his administration developing a plan.
He should determine if a new convention center is the way to go, if the old courthouse and old City Hall sites, both complemented by the Hyatt Regency, would work best as a convention center site, what the economic impact would be and how a convention center would be financed.
Peyton could tie the package up in a bow and hand it off to the new mayor, who hopefully will have a better economy to deal with.
In fact, whether to build a new convention center and what to do with the Prime Osborn could become part of the mayoral campaign.
Ron EVERYONE knows what to do with the... the.... uh....(Damn I can't say those P.O. words)... the JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL. First and foremost, it's a railroad station, par exsalonce. Last of it's kind in the Southeast. Get those platforms back in tomorrow. Get Amtrak out of the Okefenokee and back downtown.
A real terminal has many services all of which involve employment and money generation.
For Example in Los Angeles:
Los Angeles
800 N. Alameda St.
Los Angeles, CA 90012
Location: Union Station
Phone: 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245)
Route: Coast Starlight, Pacific Surfliner, Souhwest Chief, Sunsel LImited Trains, and San Joaquin Motorcoach Rtes 1, 4
View Map
STAFFED HOURS
24 hours a day, 7 days a week Restrooms, pay phones, Quik-Trak ticket machines, and baggage service are available at the Los Angeles station.
PARKING
Long term: $10 per day
Short term: hourly rates
Additional Parking at MTA Building next door.
RAIL SERVICES
Amtrak 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245) or http://tickets.amtrak.com
Coast Starlight (to Santa Barbara, San Francisco/Oakland, Portland and Seattle
Pacific Surfliner (San Diego to San Luis Obispo)
San Joaquin (via Thruway to Bakersfield and San Joaquin Valley points including Stockton, Sacramento and the Bay Area)
Southwest Chief (to Albuquerque, Kansas City and Chicago)
Sunset Limited (to El Paso, New Orleans and Jacksonville, FL) Service east of New Orleans temporarily discontinued due to Hurricane Katrina damage.
Metrolink 1-800-371-LINK (5465) or www.metrolinktrains.com
Commuter service to Ventura, Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside and San Bernardino Counties) Speech and Hearing Impaired 1-800-698-4TDD (4833)
LOCAL PUBLIC TRANSIT
Los Angeles Metro www.metro.net
Red Line (subway) to North Hollywood via Wilshire/Western, connection to Blue Line to Long Beach.
Gold Line to Pasadena
1-800-COMMUTE (266-6883) (within Los Angeles Area)
1-213-626-4455 (Outside Los Angeles Area)
Speech and Hearing Impaired 1-800-252-9040
Buses
LADOT Transit (213, 310, 323, 818) 808-2273
Commuter Express (West Los Angeles, Santa Monica, San Fernando Valley, Simi Valley, South Beach, San Pedro and other surrounding communities)
DASH 1-213-808-2273 (Downtown Los Angeles and surrounding areas)
City Hall Shuttle, San Pedro Electric Trolley and Bunker
Hill Trolley (Provide various employee sponsored shuttles in the downtown LA)
Antelope Valley Transit Authority 1-661-945-9445 ext.200 (LA/Palmdale/Lancaster)
Foothill Transit 1-800-RIDE-INFO (743-3463) (San Gabriel/Pomona Valleys)
Metro Buses 1-800-COMMUTE (266-6883) (L.A. area)
1-213-626-4455 (Outside Los Angeles area)
Orange County Transportation Authority 1-714-636-RIDE (7433)
(San Clemente, San Juan Capistrano, Irvine, Santa Ana, Anaheim, Fullerton, Costa Mesa, Laguna Beach)
Santa Clarita Transit 1-661-294-1287 (Santa Clarita)
Santa Monica Transit (Big Blue Bus) 1-310-451-5444 (Santa Monica Freeway Express)
Torrance Transit 1-310-618-6266 (Long Beach)
Airport Shuttle Buses
New FlyAway fares become effective January 1, 2009, and include a new lower rate for seniors 65 years and older. Children under age 2 ride for free.
For FlyAway fares and schedules click here.
Metropolitan Express 1-800-266-6883 (1-800-COMMUTE)
Primetime Shuttle 1-800-733-8267 $14.00/person*
Super Shuttle 1-310-782-6600 $13.75/person*
*Above fares are approximate from Union Station to LAX. These shuttles also serve other regional airports and destinations.
Taxi Service
(Located at the north side of Union Station)
Independent Taxi 1-323-666-0050
United Independent Taxi 1-213-483-7660
Yellow Cab (310 or 213) 808-1000
Or call 1-800-TAXICAB (829-4222)
Car Rentals
Hertz Car Rental 1-800-654-3131
7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. Mon - Fri
8:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Sat - Sun
Budget Rent A Car 1-800-527-0700
7:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Mon - Fri
8:00 a.m to 12:00 p.m. Sat - Sun
(Located in the Union Station terminal)
NEARBY HOTELS
Days Inn Downtown (directly across from Union Station) 1-213-680-0200
Best Western Dragon Gate Inn (0.5 miles) 1-213-617-3077
New Otani (0.5 miles) 1-213-629-1200
LA Marriott Downtown (1 mile) 1-800-805-8210 or 1-805-482-8210
CHECK OUT THE BROCHURE FOR CHICAGO UNION STATION SO YOU CAN GET A FEEL FOR WHAT WE ARE SLEEPING ON:
http://www.chicagounionstation.com/graphics/UnionStaChi_brochure.pdfOCKLAWAHA
I would work this backwards. What are some elements that would make a convention center successful?
It needs to be a certain size, and expandable if the City and/or its needs grow. I don't know what's a good size to start with, but every 43,000 square feet or so is an acre just for the building. I would think about 4 acres would be a minimum size building footprint ultimately.
The building needs to host a rail mass transit station (not necessarily the $ky-high-way) of some sort in the long term. It will also need to accommodate lots of tour and local buses for events.
It will need delivery bays and parking for large trucks to handle various needs for trade shows and events.
It will need a parking garage to handle well over 1,000 cars because they aren't going away anytime soon.
It will need hotels, restaurants, entertainment, some stores, etc. within a reasonable distance, preferably walking.
It would be nice if took advantage of something distinctive about Jax like the riverfront.
So where do we have land that might fit this best and would be available for public acquisition?
To me the best answers, which I have pushed before as public event places, would be the Shipyards property or the former JEA power plant property. Both should have enough land for the building, parking, access, etc. Excess land could be developed by the City with hotels and other commercially related facilities as a way to earn some $$$ back to pay for the facility itself.
The Shipyards would be my first choice due to its location to Downtown and the Stadium and the ability to connect the two. Events held there could have tie ins with the Arena and Stadium. Likewise, hotels there would be able to service all the venues in the area. The Arena/Stadium parking lots could provide overflow parking for really large events. Access is good from all the bridges. Infrastructure is likely already present. And, its on the waterfront with the ability to handle a marina for boat shows, boat access, small cruise ships, tour boats for visitors, etc.
If you visit Orlando, you will see just how much land these facilities and their accompaniments can swallow up if they are to be a success. The property by the Hyatt is just to small to me to make it work as a first class operation. That location would just recreate a bigger inadequate version of what we already have.
The courthouse site can work. An urban convention center should have the ability to go up, not out. The courthouse and city hall annex sites are more than enough for a vertical (two or three floors of convention use) convention center. Plus we would already have the Hyatt as a convention center hotel on site and Bay Street as support entertainment and dining. Move the thing anywhere else and we're going to have to give millions in incentives to build another hotel (because this market can't support two CC size hotels) that will have to compete head to head with what's already in place.
Here is an example of what should be considered here:
Washington State Convention & Trade Center - Seattle, WAlevel 1 - street level restaurants, shops and parking access
level 2 - meeting rooms
level 3 - meeting rooms
level 4 - exhibition space (205,700 sf of continuous exhibition space on single floor)
level 5 - show offices
level 6 - ballrooms and meeting rooms
link to floor plans: http://www.wsctc.com/our_space/Floor_Plans.aspx
While this center is larger than what Jacksonville needs (I doubt we would need anything over 2 or 3 stories), it does show that you can go up, instead of out. Also, don't forgot about the possibility of selling air rights.
QuoteThe WSCTC expansion establishes a new benchmark for the integration of codevelopment into a convention center project by including a hotel, an office building, parking, street-front retail, and a new museum, all located above and below the expansion of the WSCTC.
Located in the air-rights above the convention center expansion on Pine Street, between Seventh and Eighth avenues is the new 450-room Elliott hotel. The hotel’s restaurant, ballrooms, and related meeting facilities, along with a 960-stall parking garage will occupy the space below the northwest exhibit hall. The hotel’s separate entry and drop-off will be located on Pine Street. Retail is accommodated on the Seventh Avenue and Pike Street frontages around the hotel block.
On the corner of Seventh and Pike, above the Convention Center’s new entry, meeting rooms and prefunction space is Trammell Crow’s new 16-story office building. Beneath the Convention Center’s spaces is a 256-stall parking garage.
On the corner of Eighth and Pike, in the surplus space beneath northeast exhibit hall, the Convention Center is constructing the shell of space that will subsequently be completed by the Museum of History and Industry (MOHAI) as its new exhibit, educational and administrative facilities.
link: http://www.djc.com/news/const/11122626.html
An example of the courthouse site accommodating a mixed use vertical convention center layout
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tu_proposal/ConventionCenter-aerial3.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tu_proposal/new_convention_center.jpg)
The Washington State Trade & Convention Center - Seattle, WA. This site is roughly equal in size to the waterfront courthouse property.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tu_proposal/WashingtonTradeCenter-2.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tu_proposal/WashingtonTradeCenter-1.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tu_proposal/WashingtonTradeCenter-3.jpg)
Quotelevel 4 - exhibition space (205,700 sf of continuous exhibition space on single floor)
Ock, the exhibit space you just cited dictates a floor plate of well over 5 acres when you count foyers, reception space, and support space to go with the exhibition space. I don't see all this fitting on your suggested city blocks. How many acres do you think you are working with?
According to the property appraiser's site, 8.4 acres. This excludes Courthouse Drive ROW, which could be built over and the Hyatt's convention facilities.
Present County Courthouse site - 5.988 acres
City Hall Annex block - 2.391 acres
Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2009, 12:43:58 AM
According to the property appraiser's site, 8.4 acres. This excludes Courthouse Drive ROW, which could be built over and the Hyatt's convention facilities.
Present County Courthouse site - 5.988 acres
City Hall Annex block - 2.391 acres
I don't know Lake. You show the annex for the parking garage. That leaves only about 6 acres for the convention center and hotel/offices. It looks too tight to me and would likely need someone to put pencil to paper to be sure. The garage you show looks a bit smallish also.
As to the City Hall annex, I heard it might not even be available because supposedly the Hyatt property includes an option for the property owner to buy the Annex from the City. If this is true, the City may lose control of it.
That's just a quick sketch to give viewers an idea of how a mixed-use convention center could be set up. Its definitely not Bible. Remember, think vertical. A parking garage could easily be designed within the same structure that would house convention facilities. With good design, there's a million ways to skin this cat. Btw, the Hyatt wants the convention center at this site. If the Hyatt has an option on the property, I would expect they would use this in an attempt to land the convention center next door. If anything, this tells me the city should explore the possibility of a public/private partnership with the Hyatt to develop a convention center on the courthouse property.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2009, 01:15:51 AM
That's just a quick sketch to give viewers an idea of how a mixed-use convention center could be set up. Its definitely not Bible. Remember, think vertical. A parking garage could easily be designed within the same structure that would house convention facilities. With good design, there's a million ways to skin this cat. Btw, the Hyatt wants the convention center at this site. If the Hyatt has an option on the property, I would expect they would use this in an attempt to land the convention center next door. If anything, this tells me the city should explore the possibility of a public/private partnership with the Hyatt to develop a convention center on the courthouse property.
Lake, two comments to this. The minimum floor size of the facility will be dictated by the size of the exhibition space and all that goes with it. Second, putting a parking garage today under a convention hall would probably not sit well with security experts after the incidents in Oklahoma City and the early 90's parking garage bombing of the WTC in NY.
I believe the Seattle convention center, which was expanded in 2001, includes parking integrated with the convention facility. So there is precedence. Nevertheless, there are a million ways to skin this cat. The important thing is the critical elements are in place.
1. Convention center hotel already in place.
2. Support entertainment (Bay Street) and retail (Landing) uses are already in place.
3. There is more than enough land to accommodate a state-of-the art convention center. Combining the city hall annex, courthouse and courthouse drive parcels adds up to roughly 10 acres.
4. Last time I checked, the desired exhibition sf needed is 200k sf. The courthouse land alone can accommodate a +260,000sf continuous box. Integrate it with the city hall annex site and that number increases.
Both the Landing and Hyatt have expressed an interest in the past to move the convention center to the site. Considering this city is broke, is this a potential public/private financing opportunity we may be overlooking?
You might be able to gain even more "footprint" by closing Market Street, or building over it, fully integrating the Hyatt into the CC facility.
Good point.
the Pennsylvania Convention Center in Philly is a good (albeit much larger) example...the center takes up four blocks and includes the main exhibit space bridging 12th Sreet....creating a tunnel effect...and they used the nold Reading Terminal as a grand ballroom, with a direct connection into the Marriott hotel.
http://www.paconvention.com/home2/ (http://www.paconvention.com/home2/)
What, no rail to the new CC downtown at the Hyatt? Did we miss that?
If the City doesn't do rail or doesn't get it built in time, then a skyway extension can take care of that. I say the old courthouse plot is perfect for a convention center (everything is in place), and we might have to go vertical (if needed, two stories maybe), but I don't think we need that large of a convention center; it should be much larger than the size of the "Prime," at least between 150,000 and 175,000 feet of space.
We are definitely not Seattle, Philly, or even Tampa by any stretch of the means.
Heights Unknown
I like a site and concept that would allow a building to be expanded if desired. A successful project should have a life span of 35 years plus in my opinion. That's a long time to project accurately the City's growth and needs. If we build something adequate for today, we should be able to grow it if desired in the future without having to start over again like we are now due to inadequate foresight and/or doing things on the cheap.
If today's CC should be 150,000 to 200,000 sf +/-, what would we do if we wanted to eventually add another 50 to 100% or more to it later?
An urban center designed for a little future vertical expansion could accommodate that need. Unfortunately, the way we're going, it may be another 35 years before we get to 200,000 sf.
(http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/662/avance26cl.jpg)
Libby is watching some stupid movie susposed to be in Colombia, the city has to look like poorest Mexico, and you GOT to have lots of pigs running around... LOTS OF PIGS! This By the Way is our Condo in Medellin, Piso 11, a 4 level pool with waterfall between each level, alongside a mountain rapids called "Volcano Creek" (for good reason). Our parking is UNDER the building. Ask me where I feel safer? JAX or MEDELLIN? Next trip I've just got to find those pigs... We gotta have pigs.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2009, 01:45:26 AM
I believe the Seattle convention center, which was expanded in 2001, includes parking integrated with the convention facility. So there is precedence.
Lake, every major building, mall , condo and office in Medellin, Colombia, is built ABOVE the parking levels. I realize of course that this is America, land of the brave... ur....the smart... well? Cool that Seattle was able to pull this off, I wish our cities were as nice, clean and SAFE as the metro's in Colombia. How do they handle the terror threats? Each building pays for a shift of police, which are provided with a micro-station, office, restrooms etc. As one enters any under the tower parking every XXX cars or so, they do a complete random search - Voluntary. One in X? Cars, or sometimes a string of 5 to 20 cars, get the walk around with a dog and a pot lid mirror on a metal pole.
Never had a problem, never saw a violent moment, even showing up one day without my national ID, licence etc... got me no more then a KIND warning to "Be careful Doctor, someone could take advantage of you..." UnFrickin Real to anyone who grew up with American TV fiction. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 17, 2009, 11:17:15 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2009, 01:45:26 AM
I believe the Seattle convention center, which was expanded in 2001, includes parking integrated with the convention facility. So there is precedence.
Lake, every major building, mall , condo and office in Medellin, Colombia, is built ABOVE the parking levels. I realize of course that this is America, land of the brave... ur....the smart... well? Cool that Seattle was able to pull this off, I wish our cities were as nice, clean and SAFE as the metro's in Colombia. How do they handle the terror threats? Each building pays for a shift of police, which are provided with a micro-station, office, restrooms etc. As one enters any under the tower parking every XXX cars or so, they do a complete random search - Voluntary. One in X? Cars, or sometimes a string of 5 to 20 cars, get the walk around with a dog and a pot lid mirror on a metal pole.
Never had a problem, never saw a violent moment, even showing up one day without my national ID, licence etc... got me no more then a KIND warning to "Be careful Doctor, someone could take advantage of you..." UnFrickin Real to anyone who grew up with American TV fiction.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, I am NOT an expert on Colombia. But, if I recall correctly, violence from drug cartels and rebels is a bit more a part of their lives than we in America would find acceptable. I believe Americans are looking for zero tolerance in this area. Heck, a business gets sued if one light bulb is out in the parking lot and someone gets accosted under that light. Is that the legal system in Colombia? If not, they can afford to take more risks.
As to security, I suppose that paying for those security guards to do those checks and having people wait in line is a bit more affordable due to likely far lower labor costs. No disrespect intended, but you would have to pay significant hourly wages to actually get a security guard in this country to do something that proactive and professional on his/her shift. Most do not have the "mojo" or professionalism to deal with this and be acceptable under our legal American standards. And, could you imagine the lawsuits if "your" security DID let someone get through and an incident occurred? "What do you mean, you don't check every car? - That's got to be negligence!"
Yes, it would be great sometimes if we were that laid back. But, it isn't going to happen here. So, back to the question. What will be accepted regarding a garage under a major building like this?
So, back to the question. What, if anything, will be accepted regarding a garage under a major building like this?
Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2009, 10:42:24 PM
An urban center designed for a little future vertical expansion could accommodate that need. Unfortunately, the way we're going, it may be another 35 years before we get to 200,000 sf.
If you want to expand an exhibit hall, Lake, how would you do that vertically? I believe most want it as one big room with very high ceilings.
Pick a site, give me your square footage requirements and I'll explain.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2009, 11:56:22 PM
Pick a site, give me your square footage requirements and I'll explain.
Not sure I get your drift here, Lake. But, I'll try and play along. At your preferred site, the old courthouse, if it maxes out at a 200,000 sf room with attendant spaces, how does it go to a single 300,000 or 400,000 sf room, not a two level affair with 200,000 sf per floor?
Quote from: stjr on April 18, 2009, 12:24:38 AM
Not sure I get your drift here, Lake. But, I'll try and play along.
No tricks, I just wanted to see what site dimensions we were working with.
Unless I'm totally off, the Bay Street site should be able to accommodate a little more than 400,000sf on one floor, excluding the Hyatt's facility, assuming you use the City Hall annex block also. So in a vertical format, you put support facilities, street level retail, dining and smaller meeting rooms on the first floor. Then you would use the entire second (bridging over Market Street) as an exhibition hall. If we want to phase, we could leave the City Hall Annex standing for a while (lease it out for office space in the interim) and build the initial convention center on courthouse site.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/bayconventioncentersite.jpg)
Lake, I am just playing along here. How many CC's have an "L" shaped floor like you suggest vs. a square or rectangle? What happened to my parking garage? ???
Quotehttp://How many CC's have an "L" shaped floor like you suggest vs. a square or rectangle?
There are variations, depending on local site conditions all across the US. For example:
The Pennsylvania Convention Center in Philly is shaped as an L. It also has two levels of exhibition halls.
http://www.paconvention.com/home2/planners/floorplans/
The Orange County Convention Center in Orlando has two exhibition halls with International Drive splitting them.
http://www.occc.net/Planner/OverviewFloorPlans.asp
The Washington State Convention & Trade Center in Seattle has an exhibition level shaped like an "H".
http://www.wsctc.com/pdfs/floor_plans/Level4ExhibitHalls.pdf
Quotehttp://What happened to my parking garage?
Its integrated with the building the way it is in cities like Seattle (WSCTC) and Detroit (Cobo Hall). If we have to have a suburban design, then a parking garage would have to be built on a nearby lot, like the JEA parcel at Ocean & Bay.
most Convention Centers have several differenet exhibit hall spaces....and very few have as much as 400,000 in on room....remember that they are often used by several groups at once....and the groups often need meeting rooms, exhibit space, and ballrooms....so th shape of the building is not much of an issue.
And if you're concerned about having an exhibit hall on the 2nd floor, not that the PA Convention Center has the same thing...it just requires a ramp up to a loading dock.