A Lesson for Jacksonville: The St. Louis Metrolink
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MetroLink is a light rail transit system in the Greater St. Louis area. The entire system currently consists of two lines (Red Line and Blue Line) connecting Lambert-St. Louis International Airport and Shrewsbury, MO with Scott Air Force Base near Shiloh, IL through downtown St. Louis. The system features 37 stations and carries an average of 61,573 people each weekday.A second line, the Cross-County Extension, now known as the Blue Line, opened to the public August 26, 2006. This 8-mile, 9-station line connects Washington University, Clayton, the popular Saint Louis Galleria shopping center and Shrewsbury to the system.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/1048
Are we the only ones who just don't get it? The French stormed the Bastille, we should storm city hall.
I rode this system sometime in the '90's. It was spotlessly clean and on schedule. It made seeing the city MUCH easier. I did rent a car while I was there, but if I had known, I could have saved that expense. It was easier and less stressful when I was riding the train instead of driving. The next time I go back, I will get a hotel on the line and not even bother with a car rental.
St. Louis is a great city. Forest Park and the DT/gateway area are very nicely done.
Several of the stations are very basic. That is no doubt helpful in keeping costs down.
It is a great system, but they are having major shortfalls and are cutting service like crazy, as well as laying off staff.
Great article about fsujaxs contention. Despite huge increases in ridership the system faces budget cutbacks and shortfalls...
http://www.stlcommercemagazine.com/archives/october2008/m.html
Its a sign of the times, as many public agencies are facing tough budget issues. Like public libraries and parks, transit isn't a money maker. If the sales tax vote does not pass, they'll either have to get creative to bridge funding gaps or cut service down. If it were me, I would probably do a mix of both. The good thing for them is that voters have had 15 years to witness the benefit of fixed mass transit. As witnessed in other cities, an efficient local example can have a powerful impact on how residents view transit, which influences the outcome of a vote. If we pushed forward with some sort of sales tax increase for transit, based on what we offer now, I have no doubt that it fail with flying colors (aka. Cincinnati, Louisville, Austin, etc.). So start small, but logical with money already in hand (ex. Houston, Charlotte,etc.) and work our way up.
My in laws live in the north area of St. Louis metro and that area voted against the metrolink coming into their county. The people there have now seen its success in the other parts of town and are begging for it come now. The main smear campaign at the time they voted was that it passed though too many undesirable areas to risk it coming to the suburbs now downtown isn't so undesirable and the suburbs(everywhere) are suffering and need this transit. I have ridden the metrolink several times it is great, easy and goes where you want to go in St. Louis. The St. Louis downtown is fun, bars, clubs, NFL, MLB, Zoo, Museums, Restaurants, young, vibrant, historic and very bright lights at night.
Considering Jax is about a decade behind most of our peers, those same tired smear campaigns will be used here. The best way to kill naysayers is to provide a local example that is efficient, generates decent ridership and is affordable in cost. If it has worked in Houston, it can work here.
This is great stuff, but "What if JTB had never been built..." HEE HEE
OCKLAWAHA
The main problem getting anyone behind light rail seems to be the fact that we're not that dense and not that large yet. Now would be a great time to start planning for it, but the fact that the city sees no immediate need for it is what holds us back.
An interesting article would be one that compares us to other cities of similar density and size that have light rail/alt transit… if that hasn't been written already.
Dave you now have Ock and Lake racing to site the many examples they have given us on similar cities and transit. It won't be a short list.
David, check out the article series, "I'm smaller than Jax and I have rail..." in the transit section.
Quote from: David on April 09, 2009, 12:33:56 PM
The main problem getting anyone behind light rail seems to be the fact that we're not that dense and not that large yet. Now would be a great time to start planning for it, but the fact that the city sees no immediate need for it is what holds us back.
I guess it may be time for us to start reposting some of our old rail articles. Here are a few worth checking out. When you get done going through the examples, hopefully we will have one more believer that Jax is more than large enough for rail to succeed.
FrontRunner: Salt Lake City gets more Rail
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http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/781/116/
I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Salt Lake City
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http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/530/116/
I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Little Rock
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http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/544/116/
I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Charlotte
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3011-flickr-704slacker-3.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/564/116/
I'm smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Albuquerque
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2420-572674582_60994027e2_b.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/604/116/
Rail on a Budget: Nashville's Music City Star
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2288-mcs-irs-4u.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/588/116/
I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tacoma
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2183-tacomadome3.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/section/11/116/10/70/
I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Memphis
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http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/553/116/
Other than having their own rail systems, all of these cities meet one or more of the descriptions mentioned below.
1. The city's urban area is smaller than Jacksonville's urban area in population.
2. The city's urban area has a lower population density than Jacksonville's.
3. The city's metropolitan area population is lower than Jacksonville's.
In short, the thought that Jacksonville is too small or not dense enough for rail is inaccurate.
QuoteAn interesting article would be one that compares us to other cities of similar density and size that have light rail/alt transit… if that hasn't been written already.
We've run them in the past, but I guess its time to drill home the message again. I'll add this to the list of future articles to run.
I agree with Lake that Jax. needs to get started sooner rather than later....but it is important to not that many of the systems shown above are commuter rail with limited (often peak hours only) service.....or streetcar/trolley lines that are very short (less thsn 3 miles)....not exactly systems serving an entire metro area.
^That's the key. We can't build Rome overnight. Start small (less than 10 miles) and work your way up, giving residents an immediate choice in the process. In this respect, Salt Lake City is a great example. 15 years ago, they had nothing. Now they have +19 miles of light rail, 44 miles of commuter rail and aggressive plans in place for more.
QuoteStart small (less than 10 miles)
All due respect oh great one, start with 2 miles in congested areas, and see if the trolley is sustainable. Then grow to rail and expand. No sense throwing more money at the people mover, without results first.
I'm all for an affordable demonstration project. Even two miles can be a success if it efficiently serves the area its set up in. Houston, Charlotte and Buffalo all have relatively short rapid transit lines that attract over 20,000 riders a day. Even BRT Capitol Ottawa, has a 5 mile demonstration rail project averaging nearly 10,000 riders a day.
QuoteHouston, Charlotte and Buffalo all have relatively short rapid transit lines that attract over 20,000 riders a day.
Oh great one, Houston is one of the top 5 most populous cities. San Antonio is next behind Houston in size in Texas, and they are building more roadways, instead of rail. Not sure on Charlotte or Buffalo pop, so sticking to what I know. Houston is not the best argument here. We don't have 20,000 people going ANYWHERE within a 2 mile distance, so far in Jax.
Well, I never did say that a two mile line would attract 20,000 riders. All I said was that I would be in favor of a short affordable demonstration project. Then I gave you a few examples of cities with short lines averaging decent ridership.
As for the examples, Houston works. There's no need talking about it being one of the 5 most populous cities, since the rail line only serves a small portion of the inner city. Like Jacksonville, its a sprawling hellhole. Yet, the 7 mile starter line constructed a few years ago attracts roughly 40,000 riders a day. Not because the city is dense, but because it connects the city's major employment districts (DT & TMC) with decent reliable service. As for Charlotte, our urban area is larger and more compact. Like Jax, naysayers said it would not work there but its been exceeding ridership estimates since day one. If it can work there, it can work here. Imo, what keeps us 10 years behind our peers is a lack of vision, negativity and a huge inferiority complex.
Btw, there are plans for a commuter rail system between San Antonio and Austin. So they are considering more than roads. Here is a link to the site: http://asarail.org/
QuoteBtw, there are plans for a commuter rail system between San Antonio and Austin.
With all due respect, oh great one, there are plans for a new county courthouse in downtown Jacksonville, but not much has been done yet...and this is the same city you want to look at rail transit.... :'(
Thanks for the reverence, I'll sleep better tonight knowing you believe I'm the great one. :o
Unfortunately, your Jax courthouse is an apples and oranges comparison. Nevertheless, sooner or later Jax has to grow up. It might as well be sooner. Even if we have to pull a few kicking and screaming.
QuoteIt might as well be sooner.
The school system would probably be in line for the funding for a rail system. At the end of the day, what is more important, 10 extra minutes on the road, or 10 more kids who can read, write, and contribute to society?
Tough questions indeed. :-\
Actually, its pretty simple since the funding sources are different. If we pass rail by, the money will just flow to another city. Orlando is still kicking themselves today for bypassing rail money earmarked to them in the late 1990s (it was sent to Charlotte). Now with Orlando's funds, Charlotte is enjoying the type of economic development Central and North Florida can only dream about.
Also, at the end of the day, community development and schools are both important and should be improved at the same time. Its no secret that communities with good mass transit options have a tendency to attract better paying companies and the educated workforce that goes with them. Students with educated parents tend to fare better off than those without them. We can throw all the money we can at the school board, but if we don't invest in changing the neighborhoods, community and homes feeding them, its useless.
QuoteNow Charlotte is enjoying the type of economic development Central and North Florida can only dream about.
That is a bit of a stretch, in a state where Charlotte is by far the largest city. In Florida, Jacksonville struggles to compete for dollars behind bigger brothers in Miami, Tampa/St. Pete, and Orlando areas. When you look at dollars though, Florida gets a larger proportion due to the fact that it is the 3rd largest state in the Union, with a GNP that rivals most nations on the globe. I don't see us missing out on anything we don't need in the North Florida region.
We could stand to use the Sun Pass cards on new roadways and at the airport, but that would require planning and brain "thingies" by the current leaders....The former head of the Rebublican Party told me that all new major roads in Florida would have to be paid for by tolls (Sun Pass), and rightly so, pay to use it. We should have that along I-95 when you enter and leave jax. JTA would reap the money, use it on the rail.
I have no problem using rail, I just have a problem sacrificing needs today, for something not proven for tomorrow. There is no rail study that can prove we need to spend the same 180 million that the schools need NOW, for a rail system.
The best way to prove that rail can survive is the extend the JTA bus trolleys into the neighborhoods, that could use the rail now. Downtown to San Marco, Up and down 3rd street at the beach, Riverside/Avondale to downtown. Springfield to downtown. Have the residents prove that the rail system would be used. Good ness knows we could use the money for the school systems now.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 11, 2009, 01:41:10 AM
QuoteNow Charlotte is enjoying the type of economic development Central and North Florida can only dream about.
That is a bit of a stretch, in a state where Charlotte is by far the largest city. In Florida, Jacksonville struggles to compete for dollars behind bigger brothers in Miami, Tampa/St. Pete, and Orlando areas. When you look at dollars though, Florida gets a larger proportion due to the fact that it is the 3rd largest state in the Union, with a GNP that rivals most nations on the globe. I don't see us missing out on anything we don't need in the North Florida region.
The size of the community is irrelevant in this situation. Its a well known fact that the money Orlando passed, ended up constructing Charlotte's light rail line. Its also a well known fact that the city is enjoying hundreds of millions of investment along that line, despite today's economic conditions. If the Sunrail deal goes through, expect to see the same happen in Orlando, despite it being the third largest MSA in Florida.
QuoteWe could stand to use the Sun Pass cards on new roadways and at the airport, but that would require planning and brain "thingies" by the current leaders....The former head of the Rebublican Party told me that all new major roads in Florida would have to be paid for by tolls (Sun Pass), and rightly so, pay to use it. We should have that along I-95 when you enter and leave jax. JTA would reap the money, use it on the rail.
If it goes to rail or not, I'm one of the few around here who would have no problem seeing tolls return in Jax. Its about the only way to generate additional funds for massive road infrastructure and maintenance projects.
QuoteI have no problem using rail, I just have a problem sacrificing needs today, for something not proven for tomorrow. There is no rail study that can prove we need to spend the same 180 million that the schools need NOW, for a rail system.
I understand your view, but money for schools and transit come from two totally different funding pots. So, unfortunately for your position, until the federal government changes their funding strategies, it will never become a fund transit or schools only situation.
QuoteThe best way to prove that rail can survive is the extend the JTA bus trolleys into the neighborhoods, that could use the rail now. Downtown to San Marco, Up and down 3rd street at the beach, Riverside/Avondale to downtown. Springfield to downtown. Have the residents prove that the rail system would be used. Good ness knows we could use the money for the school systems now.
Unfortunately, buses can't dictate potential rail ridership. Rail has the ability effectively draw choice riders. I'll let one of the transit guys fill you in on the details and provide links to case studies.
QuoteI understand your view, but money for schools and transit come from two totally different funding pots.
The fact that they do today, does not mean they have to in the future. You want leaders to think outside the box? You have to give them the crayons to get them to pencil to pen. If the taxpayers want to use funds from the gas tax for something other than roads, it should be up to the citizens to decide. After all, it was not up to the citizens to let AIU payout bonuses, or was it?
Quotebuses can't dictate potential rail ridership.
Buses dictate public use of transportation. Forget rail, you and the others here have to prove that rail is needed over buses, that density is great enough to afford spending millions per mile, and then having a system that sustains itself, rather than sucking quality of life resources from citizens.
Roads are paid for by gas taxes, so buses are already funded. It is a great, low cost solution, where you only need to pay for the bus expenses. Try the buses out, see if you can convince people to give up their cars, it is the same principle (bus or rail) you are asking people to give up the freedom of a car for purposes of transportation.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 11, 2009, 02:00:55 AM
QuoteI understand your view, but money for schools and transit come from two totally different funding pots.
The fact that they do today, does not mean they have to in the future. You want leaders to think outside the box? You have to give them the crayons to get them to pencil to pen. If the taxpayers want to use funds from the gas tax for something other than roads, it should be up to the citizens to decide. After all, it was not up to the citizens to let AIU payout bonuses, or was it?
I don't see thinking out of the box as ignoring one portion of community development to focus on another segment. I believe they all go hand-in-hand. My hope would be that we can find a way to multi-task and fund improvement to schools, transit, parks and a host of other things.
QuoteQuotebuses can't dictate potential rail ridership.
Buses dictate public use of transportation. Forget rail, you and the others here have to prove that rail is needed over buses, that density is great enough to afford spending millions per mile, and then having a system that sustains itself, rather than sucking quality of life resources from citizens.
My push for rail revolves around economic development. Rail has the ability to change regional growth patterns and promote development that will not happen with buses. Its also an environmental friendly solution that is more afforable than constructing busways and expanding roads along congested corridors like Blanding and Roosevelt. Regardless of how you may feel about rail, you can't deny the results well planned systems are bringing to places like Portland, Denver, Salt Lake City, Charlotte, Austin, St. Louis, Houston and Phoenix. Its also difficult to make an argument that its not a cost effective transportation solution, considering its cheaper than building roads. At this point, I fail to see why Jax should not do what's necessary to take advantage of these benefits as well.
QuoteRoads are paid for by gas taxes, so buses are already funded. It is a great, low cost solution, where you only need to pay for the bus expenses. Try the buses out, see if you can convince people to give up their cars, it is the same principle (bus or rail) you are asking people to give up the freedom of a car for purposes of transportation.
Rail O&M costs are generally lower than buses. This is also well proven.
QuoteRegardless of how you may feel about rail, you can't deny the results well planned systems are bringing to places like Portland, Denver, Salt Lake City, Charlotte, Austin, St. Louis, Houston and Phoenix. Its also difficult to make an argument that its not a cost effective transportation solution, considering its cheaper than building roads.
You need to win over 2 sets of the population. The leaders who have to re-write the taxes to fund rail, and the people who need to give up their cars. Go ahead and plan for the next 10, 20, 30 years, until you win the minds of the leaders, and the hearts of the users, this will always be a plan.
Once you add trains to tracks, it is cheaper, less maintenance, but right now, today, the roads are built, the buses are purchased, and public transportation has YET to prove that it can successfully be used (successfully) in Jacksonville (minus Jags games of course). I would hope you would throw me that crumb, oh great one.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 11, 2009, 02:15:54 AM
I would hope you would throw me that crumb, oh great one.
you're really annoying. Lake has never spoken in a condescending manner, why do you treat him like that?
^It doesn't bother me. When people start acting in that manner, it typically means you're getting the best of them in a debate. In this case, its clear that mtraininjax has no idea of what he is talking about. There's too much factual information out there on this subject he continues to downplay or ignore to think otherwise.
Our schools need to be funded consistently from a dedicated funding source. Taking short term funds from other projects is no way to budget for the long term success of our schools.
Keep in mind that in the 1920's, most cities of any size at all HAD STREETCAR RAIL !!!!!!!!!!!
WE HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE, when we were a much less prosperous nation.
BTW, the development springing from the Charlotte LRT is in the billions now. They are looking everywhere they can to find money to expand it.
Am I the only one who can't see the article?
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 16, 2016, 03:25:51 PM
Am I the only one who can't see the article?
Try this:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-apr-a-lesson-for-jacksonville-the-st-louis-metrolink
Strange. Anyway, the links should work now.