Metro Jacksonville

Interesting story....

QuoteA blogger critical of First Baptist Church Pastor Mac Brunson wants to know why his Web site was investigated by a police detective who is also a member of the minister’s security detail.

Thomas A. Rich also wants the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office to explain what suspected crimes led Detective Robert Hinson to open the probe into his once-anonymous Web site.

Rich also wants to know why Hinson revealed his name to the church despite finding no wrongdoing. Hinson obtained a subpoena from the State Attorney’s Office requiring Google Inc. to reveal the author of the blog.

Rich’s unmasking led to an eventual trespass warning banning the longtime member and his wife from First Baptist, despite the fact that Brunson and a top church administrator conceded the blog never threatened violence.

Rich said he mailed a complaint against Hinson to the Sheriff’s Office on Tuesday. It had not been received as of Wednesday afternoon.

The intelligence detective  opened the criminal investigation Sept. 29  into the identity and “possible criminal overtones” of the blog, www.fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com (http://www.fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com).

The Sheriff’s Office and church officials defended the complaint and investigation into Rich’s blog, which Hinson concluded Nov. 13.

Undersheriff Frank Mackesy said Hinson’s role posed no conflict of interest because his duties include handling possible threats against the city’s large religious institutions.

Rich said he was never contacted by Hinson. He learned of the investigation well after the church notified him Nov. 28 he had been identified as the blog’s author.

Two additional bloggers investigated by Hinson said they were also not contacted. They learned of the probe in middle or late March. Their blogs do not focus on First Baptist.

full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-04-08/story/unmasked_blogger_blames_first_baptist_sheriffs_office

"The blog has included criticisms of Brunson’s $300,000 salary, his plan to open a church school, his construction of a “lavish” office suite, accepting a $307,000 land gift from church members for his home and putting his wife on the payroll."

well what do ya know...

The distinction between church and state is blurry in Jacksonville.

I thought that JSO was a division of FBC anyway.

I guess the baptists need someone to explain the first amendment to them.  They want the ability to freely exercise their beliefs, and by that I mean screw up traffic downtown how many nights and mornings a week with their stupid orange cones, which really allows them to quickly get in and out of their tax free parking garages without having to pause for a traffic light or homeless person...and yet despite freedom of speech being a part of the same amendment, that is not allowed.  This type of "good ol boy" crap pisses me off.  These mega-churches are about as corrupt as the city government.

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I suppose by revealing my distaste for FBC, I should now worry about subpoenas exposing who I really am on MetroJax.  Midway and FSU, you better watch your backs too.   ;)

That church is a major player in the reason why this city isn't more forward thinking in general. That almost cult just needs to go as much as John Peyton out of office.

Some of my best friends are good church members.  And churches do many good things for the community which I respect.  But, there should be a clear separation of church and state.  Many people and churches appreciate this because they are more concerned with the state regulating their church than the other way around and realize the danger of blurring the line.

Unfortunately, in this community, many don't see this line clearly.  I always ask church activists if they would accord a mosque or Muslim the same rights and privileges they ask for their church and religion.  I haven't found one that wanted to do that.  So, I ask, why should a person outside their faith want to give those rights and privileges to their religion and church?  The only answer, if any, I get is that majority rules.  So, I then ask, what if Muslims became the majority and you were the minority?  If I am fortunate, I see the light bulb finally go off. Alternatively, I get no response.

Based on this article, this appears to be, at best, a dangerous blurring of the church/state line and a possible abuse of the JSO officer's position.  I would hope that any church would be thick skinned enough to take some criticism and set an example for their parishioners in how to be bigger than the next person.  Clergy are public figures to many.  I am not a Biblical scholar, but I would guess that somewhere in the Bible is a verse that would suggest the right example for handling this problem is other than what transpired.

While this article was eye opening, I was really shocked by posts I read when checking out Mr. Rich's blog. Many of the preaching rants from the FBC faithful were truly frightening. I am non practicing now but was raised in a progressive Lutheran Church where members were kind, intelligent, non judgemental and accepting of others. I am so thankful I wasn't exposed to the craziness and hatred that is being taught as the word of God. Talk about wolves in sheeps clothing.

This is so sad to hear.  I do not know much about First Baptist Church, but I never hear anything about how they support the development of downtown.  I would think they would want to act as catalysts to increase downtown living and the vitality of the surrounding urban fabric.  From what I hear on here it sounds like they are only out for themselves and all others will be ignored.  Very opportunist sounding...Not JESUS like at all

I read this in todays paper... Wow... just plain Wow.  Where does Rutherford stand on this?  Peyton?  Thank you must also go out to Google for complete and utter failure to protect anonymity.  Clearly First baptist is out of control... >:(

QuoteIt is no secret that Mac Brunson and the FBC Jax administration wanted very much to know my identity. Deacons have said so, that for over a year the church was working to find out my identity - Mac has even told deacons that the blogger was a disgruntled homosexual. Mac himself, just ONE WEEK before the Deacons 2009-1 Resolution was passed, preached on "Kingdom Killjoys", which he said were people in his church that take insignificant problems at the church, who blow them up into something big, and then talk about it to someone else to try to "rob their joy". His instructions to his church leaders, should they encounter such troublemakers was that they should be "SHUT DOWN", followed by a pregnant pause for effect. Watch it for yourself at the link below. Is this an example of a humble, patient, loving pastor teaching his people to love others, even those who might ask questions that he doesn't like? It looks and sounds to me to be a pastor who wishes to shut down people in an unloving, harsh manner, and has the audacity to instruct from the pulpit his leaders in the church to shut down people who are asking questions he doesn't like.

http://images.multiply.com/multiply/multv.swf?first_video_id=fbcjaxwatchdog:video:34&base_uri=multiply.com&is_owned=1&security=7AsOc0xKp0h5rny3wPBpJw

Quote from: reednavy on April 08, 2009, 11:04:53 PM
That church is a major player in the reason why this city isn't more forward thinking in general.

They might even be the main reason. Remember when Jerry Vines was trying to stop the city from allowing alcohol consumption outside during Super Bowl week?

It appears that First Baptist Church has successfully amplified the message of http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com to every media outlet in the city.

Quote from: brainstormer on April 08, 2009, 10:50:10 PM
I suppose by revealing my distaste for FBC, I should now worry about subpoenas exposing who I really am on MetroJax.  Midway and FSU, you better watch your backs too.   ;)

What the hell, being Catholic and Gay I already have 2 strikes against me in the minds of FBC anyway. Might as well go for the trifecta. The hypocrisy of this church is so blatant. By the way, the only amendment that they care about is the one that kept me from getting married. Hail Mary, full of grace, oops! My Bad! It is truly amazing how much influence this church still has over this city.

I want to thank Thomas A. Rich and http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com for shedding light on this group.  This is a clear attempt at intimidation and I hope Mr Rich has the strength to continue.  This may also be an abuse of power by JSO.  We have lawyers who read this... Any opinions?

Quote from: copperfiend on April 09, 2009, 08:40:25 AM

Quote from: reednavy on April 08, 2009, 11:04:53 PM
That church is a major player in the reason why this city isn't more forward thinking in general.

They might even be the main reason. Remember when Jerry Vines was trying to stop the city from allowing alcohol consumption outside during Super Bowl week?

Yes. Yes I DO remember that. And the whole idea of no-alcohol zones that pretty much extended through the entire zip code. I am by no means a heavy drinker, but I think every normal football fan expects there will be beer available at a big game. They're sponsors, after all.

Just because they probably have an underground tunnel to city hall doesn't mean they get to run the city. I think that's what they planned all along.  But this is mere speculation on my part. For all I know they may just have a secret ID to bypass security and take the secret elevator in the back entrance to the 4th floor. ;)

Horrible story. I can't imagine how hard this is on his family. Ousted by the church they served, wrongly investigated by JSO and slandered by a powerful preacher.

Sometimes I think Jacksonville is unfairly criticized and actually heading in the right direction... then an article like this surfaces  :-\

I read these things about FBC and I think to myself, 'I'm more of a Christian than they are and I'm not even a Christian'. What happened to humility and temperance?

I personally think that the influence of FBC is waning in Jacksonville. I realize they still have some prominent figures in the city in their pockets and in their flocks but I believe the times they are changing...

QuoteI personally think that the influence of FBC is waning in Jacksonville. I realize they still have some prominent figures in the city in their pockets and in their flocks but I believe the times they are changing...

Apparently not when they (FBC) can control the Sheriff's office to stand behind this gross misconduct and abuse of power. The only thing that's going to bring down the church is a bolt of lightening... which may not be too far off.

I have a feeling this story is not likely to go away quickly.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 09, 2009, 01:57:58 PM
I have a feeling this story is not likely to go away quickly.

Good! I hope it doesn't. If we want any real progress in this city, the FBC has to be knocked down a few notches. I, for one, hope that this rolls on up to federal level and an independent investigator is appointed.

Church members have gone so far as to post the blogger's address and phone number on the T.U. article. T.U. had the good sense to pull it down quickly.

QuoteChurch members have gone so far as to post the blogger's address and phone number on the T.U. article. T.U. had the good sense to pull it down quickly.

I saw that and flagged one of them... of course someone else posted Brunsons coj address and property appraisal.  Nice 1 mill house he lives in... :)

Indeed... the though of a free 1 mil house in Deerwood makes me want to go start a cul... err.. church!

Quotebut am thankful for a church that has helped keep downtown alive by not moving out years ago

Keeping downtown alive by chasing out any form of night-life busniess they do not agree with nor understand.

QuoteOn Wednesday, February 25, 2009 at the FBC Jax regularly scheduled business meeting, Judge A.C. Soud, President of the FBC Jax Board of Trustees brought a motion to the church that included charges against the accused blogger, and also a statement of the church's intent to "confront aggressively" what would be deemed "...unjust criticism and ridicule of the ministry, staff, leadership, pastor, and people expressed to the general public at large in any form and by any means by any member of the church...". The motion was overwhelmingly approved by asking those in attendance to show their approval by standing to their feet.

Who is Judge A.C. Soud?  This is beginning to sound even more ominous...

Well now we know how they were so easily able to get a subpoena for Googles records... OMG... are these people more powerful than GOOGLE??? :o :o

All may be lost...

These tactics are no different from what the Church of Scientology does.

Quote from: stephendare on April 09, 2009, 04:33:04 PM
Ha!  The more I am finding out about the background of this story, the madder its making me.

I have gotten three accounts that I was one of the list of original suspects in the hunt for the blog author....

Hmph!  I wish!  The blog author has a brilliant news story that looks like its going to go national.

National?  UPI sent it out over its wires today:

QuoteJACKSONVILLE, Fla., April 9 (UPI) -- A Florida man whose blog criticizes his church and minister wants to know how a police detective who also provided church security was able to unmask him.

Thomas Rich told the Jacksonville (Fla.) Times-Union that he has lodged a complaint with the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office about the behavior of Robert Hinson.

Rich and his wife have been warned that they could be charged with trespassing if they enter the First Baptist Church. Mac Brunson, the pastor, barred the couple even though he acknowledged that Rich's blog made no threats.

Hinson obtained a search warrant in September for the blog fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com, forcing Google to give him Rich's identity.

While Hinson found no evidence of a crime in a two-month investigation, he turned over his findings to the church. Rich said he only learned of the investigation when he heard from the church.

Undersheriff Frank Mackesy said that Hinson, an intelligence officer, has responsibilities that include investigating threats against religious institutions. He said that Hinson's own relationship with First Baptist was not a conflict of interest.

These are some names mentioned in the "Next Mayor" thread.  How many are connected to FBC?

QuoteJim Bailey, Jacksonville Native and Longtime businessman.  Owner of the Daily Record and a longtime booster of the downtown area.  Committed to historic preservation and a very civil kind of guy.  In many committee meetings with Jim, Ive always found him to be pleasant, positive and rock steady.

Dan Davis, City Council President, Northeast Florida Builder's Association.  Sincere, dynamic, goodlooking.  The few times Ive met with him, ive found him to be intelligent, quick to learn and recognizeably southern.

Ronnie Fussel.  City Council President. Smart and resourceful.  Been around a good long while and has a pretty keen insight into all the bullshit that keeps stuff from happening.

Mike Hogan.  City Council President, Tax Collector and I think another elected office.  Rock solid Baptist.  Very very nice man.  Clearcut conservative somewhere to the right of Milton Friedman.

Glorious Johnson.  A bit of a wild card, very colorful and fun.  Incredibly openminded and unpredictable.  City Councilmember, former republican now a Democrat.

Audrey Moran.  One of the more interesting, committed and intelligent citizens of the city.  Former cheif of Staff for Delaney, Head of the Children's Commission and was transition director for Sulzbacher.  Also part of a pretty powerful judicial family, she herself is a JD.  I have never sat down with Audrey that I didn't leave thinking that I was lucky to have taken some of her time, and I have never met anyone who didnt feel the same way about her. Very open minded, very positive and clearcut about goal achievement.

Jerry Holland.  Rock Solid Baptist.   Pretty nice guy with bigger ambitions.  Little League Coach and President of the City Council.  Supervisor of Elections.

Jim Overton, Duval County Property Appraiser.

Does anyone know if WJXT covered this story?  Can't find it on their website and wondering why not.

Right. The two first coast news stations have mentioned it and it is on their web. Nothing from WJXT, Ch. 4 at this point.

This is perfect for FARK... :)

This is so great. I'm sorry for Rich, it's got to be a pain but for his troubles, he'll get front row seats for watching FBC go down in flames. Okay, probably not but I'm hoping it at least goes sorta like how I'm imagining it in my head. I worked there for a few years and while there are some genuinely nice people there, the people calling the shots are rotten to the core. I thought things might've been different with Brunson- he came in with a mighty administrative shakeup and got rid of Pigg, the former administrator who was a two faced bastard but nothing ever changes, I suppose.

As America is slowly growing more progressive and less tolerant of this kind of BS, I'm hoping this completely blows up in FBC's face. For every evil blogger they out, 20 more will take his place.

Also, anyone know if they went ahead with that class/group for "sexually dysfunctional adults"? I remember reading about it a while back. I guess it was FBC's way to fix those dirty gays and those of us who watch r-rated movies.

Evergreen Terrace (Jacksonville's hardcore specialists) had a track on their Wolfbiker album titled - "To The First Baptist Church of Jacksonville" - probably not my style, but fitting parting shot by those guys..........

Quote from: stephendare on April 09, 2009, 03:22:18 PM
He is the powerful husband of former council president Ginger Soud.  His two boys are both attorneys as well.

yes attorneys and one of them just won an election in November and is a brand new thirtysomething circuit court judge, aint this a great town.

Quote from: stjr on April 09, 2009, 06:57:06 PM
These are some names mentioned in the "Next Mayor" thread.  How many are connected to FBC?

QuoteJim Bailey, Jacksonville Native and Longtime businessman.  Owner of the Daily Record and a longtime booster of the downtown area.  Committed to historic preservation and a very civil kind of guy.  In many committee meetings with Jim, Ive always found him to be pleasant, positive and rock steady.

Dan Davis, City Council President, Northeast Florida Builder's Association.  Sincere, dynamic, goodlooking.  The few times Ive met with him, ive found him to be intelligent, quick to learn and recognizeably southern.

Ronnie Fussel.  City Council President. Smart and resourceful.  Been around a good long while and has a pretty keen insight into all the bullshit that keeps stuff from happening.

Mike Hogan.  City Council President, Tax Collector and I think another elected office.  Rock solid Baptist.  Very very nice man.  Clearcut conservative somewhere to the right of Milton Friedman.

Glorious Johnson.  A bit of a wild card, very colorful and fun.  Incredibly openminded and unpredictable.  City Councilmember, former republican now a Democrat.

Audrey Moran.  One of the more interesting, committed and intelligent citizens of the city.  Former cheif of Staff for Delaney, Head of the Children's Commission and was transition director for Sulzbacher.  Also part of a pretty powerful judicial family, she herself is a JD.  I have never sat down with Audrey that I didn't leave thinking that I was lucky to have taken some of her time, and I have never met anyone who didnt feel the same way about her. Very open minded, very positive and clearcut about goal achievement.

Jerry Holland.  Rock Solid Baptist.   Pretty nice guy with bigger ambitions.  Little League Coach and President of the City Council.  Supervisor of Elections.

Jim Overton, Duval County Property Appraiser.

Quote from: stephendare on April 09, 2009, 07:01:18 PM
Jerry Holland

Add Mike Hogan:     "First Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Deacon, Department Director" at:  http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:egZjdKvtODcJ:www.myfloridahouse.gov/SEctions/Representatives/details.aspx%3FMemberId%3D4193%26SessionId%3D36+mike+hogan+baptist+jacksonville&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Although not listed, Matt Shirk, our recently elected Public Defender also is a member of FBC: "In 2004, Matt married Michelle Burney, step-daughter of John Gordon, former Undersheriff for Duval County. Matt and Michelle have a young son Pierce and are active members of the First Baptist Church." http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:h31IG6sXnjkJ:myclaysun.com/node/4921+audrey+moran+baptist+jacksonville&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

From Wikipedia at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Baptist_Church_of_Jacksonville

QuoteIn 1940, Dr. Homer Lindsey, Sr. was called to be the new senior pastor of First Baptist Church and completely revitalized the church. By the end of 1943, the church became debt free and continues to be debt free to this day. In 1948, the church built its first educational building debt free. During this time, membership grew as well as contributions which was the main factor in the revitalization process. In 1969, Dr. Lindsey's son Homer Lindsey, Jr. came to First Baptist as Co-pastor. The two Lindseys would lead the church together until Dr' Lindsey, Sr.'s retirement in 1975. The membership of First Baptist grew so much that a new sanctuary was completed in 1976. This sanctuary, the Ruth Lindsey Auditorium, was also State of the Art and could seat 3,500 people. The Miracle of Downtown Jacksonville, as First Baptist has become known as, continued in 1982 when Dr. Jerry Vines became Co-pastor with Dr. Lindsey, Jr. Up until 1988, the church had expanded to nine buildings and membership went from 2,385 to 14,172. In the 1980s, the church created the Pastor's Conference which is a 5 day conference for pastors from across the United States. In 1993, First Baptist had grown so much that a new State of the Art sanctuary was completed that could seat nearly 10,000 people. Dr. Lindsey, Jr. passed away in 2000 and Dr. Vines continued leading the church forward. In 2002, the Children's Building and Welcome Center was completed which allowed First Baptist to encompass 11 square blocks of Downtown Jacksonville. Dr. Vines retired on February 7, 2006 after serving First Baptist for 23 years. On February 19, 2006 Dr. Mac Brunson was called to be the new pastor. Today, First Baptist Church has a membership of over 29,000 people and an annual budget of $14 million dollars.

In July 2006, ChurchReport.com ranked First Baptist Church of Jacksonville 19th of the 50 Most Influential Churches in the United States. [3]

"Today, First Baptist Church has a membership of over 29,000 people and an annual budget of $14 million dollars."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNy6ziOyxoA             :D :D :D


keep tithing yo.

And how much of that 14 million dollar budget goes to help the homeless and drug addicts sleeping right outside of their door?

Un-frickin-believable.  I was just discussing this whole story with my partner and he went to the jacksonville.com website to read the story and guess what?!? It's been pulled!!!!!  I thought the TU finally had grown a pair, but I guess I was wrong.  You can only get to the story now by searching for it.  As of earlier this afternoon it had over five pages of comments.  I'm pissed!  This city is ridiculous.  I'm about ready to make some signs and walk my ass down there Sunday morning in silent protest.  Really make some noise on what I'm sure is their biggest profit weekend of the year!  Down with FBC!  They have no right to run this city.  

Quote from: brainstormer on April 09, 2009, 11:31:52 PM
Un-frickin-believable.  I was just discussing this whole story with my partner and he went to the jacksonville.com website to read the story and guess what?!? It's been pulled!!!!!  I thought the TU finally had grown a pair, but I guess I was wrong.  You can only get to the story now by searching for it.  As of earlier this afternoon it had over five pages of comments.  I'm pissed!  This city is ridiculous.  I'm about ready to make some signs and walk my ass down there Sunday morning in silent protest.  Really make some noise on what I'm sure is their biggest profit weekend of the year!  Down with FBC!  They have no right to run this city.  

brainstormer, in fairness to the T-U, after about 24 hours, they rotate the articles off the web site's "front page".  Lake posted the article last night at 9:30 +/-.  It is still prominently listed under "News"-"Local", if you click there.  I would suppose by day break it will move to archives only after that or you can click on the link in this thread.  At its present 4,200 + reads and 5 pages of comments, it blows away every other article for the day including one about JEA rates that appears to be its only competition at 3,800 (the others are 100 to 300 reads).  Here it is again:  http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-04-08/story/unmasked_blogger_blames_first_baptist_sheriffs_office

If you want to see first hand what all the fuss is about, read the blog that started it all at:  http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/  Regardless of your opinions, this is entertaining reading!  Based on numbers of comments to his blogs, he has a very large following.

Quote from: jandar on April 09, 2009, 11:27:22 PM
And how much of that 14 million dollar budget goes to help the homeless and drug addicts sleeping right outside of their door?

None as far as I know. The security keeps them from hanging around. When I was younger and a member there I asked about why there wasn't more charitable work done and was basically told that if you give an inch, they want a mile. That's one thing that never bothered me. They used to and probably still do a lot of stuff for elderly and home-bound members but it's organized at the department level, there isn't some big church office of charity. There was one older lady that wasn't able to attend and I remember our study groups taking her groceries and supplies on a fairly regular basis and we even had a christmas dinner at her place one year. The last thing downtown needs is some other place offering handouts, if they want to start that at their new satellite churches, have at it.

Disappointingly... this seems to have not attracted any national attention. :( ???

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/columnists/mark_woods/2009-04-10/story/churchs_use_of_power_is_troubling

QuoteChurch's use of power is troubling

By Mark Woods Story updated at 6:29 AM on Friday, Apr. 10, 2009

Unmasked blogger blames First Baptist, Sheriff's Office
I remember sitting around the dinner table as a kid, hearing my dad talking about the daily soap operas at his "office" - the church.

Mr. Johnson didn't like part of last week's sermon. Mrs. Jones was all worked up about the changes in the potluck protocol. Others were grumbling and whispering about this or that. There always was something.

So as a preacher's kid, I certainly can understand why First Baptist Church Pastor Mac Brunson would get frustrated by having a parishioner setting up an anonymous blog to criticize him, his preaching style and his $300,000 salary. (The latter which, trust me, this preacher's kid didn't grow up with.)

Beyond that, as someone who puts his name and face behind his opinions, I'm not a big fan of the nameless, faceless criticism that is everywhere these days. From "Rants & Raves" to message boards, it seems way too easy to fire shots under the cover of anonymity.

Still, what happened in the case of a previously anonymous blogger is a troubling use of power.

In case you missed it: After the church filed a complaint about a blog, a police detective - who also is a member of the pastor's security detail - opened an investigation. Detective Robert Hinson got a subpoena from the State Attorney's Office requiring Google Inc. to provide information about whoever was behind the site. Names, addresses, etc.

It's important to note that the blog never threatened violence. Was it harshly critical? Sarcastic? Unfair? That's a matter of opinion. But it never threatened violence. And the detective closed the investigation, finding no criminal wrongdoing.

He also provided the church, his church, the identity of the blogger.

The church then issued a trespass warning against Thomas A. Rich and his wife.

Most chilling about all of this: Those in power - from the police to the church leaders - not only defend this chain of events, they say it's how things should work.

The Sheriff's Office says there wasn't a conflict of interest and that the detective did the right thing by passing along the blogger's identity to the church.

The State Attorney's Office says there wasn't anything unusual about the subpoena, which made it possible to figure out who was tapping away at a computer keyboard. Happens all the time. Not just with blogs. With e-mails, text messages, etc.

And I'm not sure what to make of one detail of the saga, other than perhaps the irony of it, but one form of communication that wasn't part of this investigation - face-to-face talking with the blogger.

This isn't necessarily unusual, police say, especially considering that no criminal wrongdoing was found. But what if, as the blogger believes, the ultimate goal of this process wasn't to find wrongdoing but to find him?

As someone who has been on the receiving end of anonymous criticism, part of me is tempted to celebrate something that might give pause to nameless, faceless critics. But a bigger part of me is troubled by a slippery slope where Big Brother meets Big Church.

Good to see Mark Woods writing about it but I doubt this goes anywhere.

Another day and still no WJXT mention of the story on "The Local Station". Has anyone seen this story covered on their newscasts? This was front page in T-U.  Is there some reason that Chan. 4 is unable to mention it? Are they beholding to FBC too?

I see that Fox 30 bumped it to the USA Today online edition. MAYBE it'll get noticed by network news?

Quote from: Cliffs_Daughter on April 10, 2009, 10:57:38 AM
I see that Fox 30 bumped it to the USA Today online edition. MAYBE it'll get noticed by network news?

Very cool. I have made sure to make this a topic of conversation with quite a few people this week.

Ok, so last night I was pretty worked up and overreacted a bit not thinking about the TU turning over stories every 24 hours, but still I would think that with this story being such a hot topic in the community, it has to be good business for their site to keep it up and easy to find.

Has anyone else looked at the subpoenas link on the bloggers site?  They have NOT SUBJECT TO PUBLIC DISCLOSURE stamped right on them.  To a regular guy, this sounds like it means any information gained should not be given out.  So didn't the detective break the subpoena guidelines by giving the name to FBC?  Can any law people help me out with what this means?

Are we all being issued trespassing warrents as we speak?

I will be waiting all weekend for two well dressed young men with vacant stares to hand me an envelope without saying a word... :)

Well here is Sheriff Rutherfords explanation...

http://www.fox30online.com/content/topstories/story/Sheriff-Rutherford-Responds-To-Church/S8ubOEk8UE2iIx3rBbwGbQ.cspx

QuoteI would like to clarify some information that has been reported about a recent Intelligence investigation conducted by the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office, regarding perceived threats against a local religious congregation.

Our agency is responsible for investigating any perceived threats and possible criminal activity that is reported to us by a citizen. We routinely share what they learn in the course of the investigation with the victim or complainant.
Suspects would not be made aware of this information, if it is gathered in an effort to determine if a threshold of criminality exists and none is found. In this case, the case was closed 11/13/08 with no further action by JSO warranted when no criminal conduct or significant threat to the church was determined to exist.
In this case, the information about suspicious behavior directed at Pastor Mac Brunson and his home and family was provided to a detective whose normal duty assignment with the JSO is to investigate possible threats against Jacksonville’s religious institutions. He is a member of our Intelligence Unit. He would have investigated this situation had the complaint come from those affiliated with a Mosque, a Synagogue, or any religious organization. This is Detective Hinson’s job as the intelligence point person for the religious community, and other designated critical infrastructure sites in Jacksonville.
All our religious institutions are a major part of Jacksonville’s critical infrastructure and we remain vigilant in investigating all perceived threats and security issues associated with those institutions. In light of recent violent incidents that have occurred in churches around the country, I think our vigilance is necessary and most appropriate to ensure public safety.
Had another officer received a similar threat or tip or raised a similar concern, Detective Hinson would have ultimately been the officer assigned to investigate. I have no issue with his investigation and there is no conflict of interest because he is affiliated with that particular congregation.
The fact that the medium used to communicate the messages being investigated was the internet is irrelevant. Investigations are conducted into the sources of anonymous letters, phone calls, and in this day and age websites and emails, any time it is deemed appropriate for public safety. We then look at the contents and sources of internet information regularly, as part of our investigations.
I hope this information helps clarify for citizens that this was not about “outing” a blogger, but instead was about public safety.



John H. Rutherford, Sheriff

Yeah, because my safety was in jeopardy when someone posted a blog about an already controversial church shedding light to some very unusual practices, and in no way that I could find made a threat to them or the public at large.  ::)

So I guess this means that if they wanted to label me as suspicious because I do not attend any church, they could find reason to?

It's amazing that in a county of 850,000 there is only one JSO officer that could have investigated this.  An obvious conflict of interest existed, which should have resulted in someone else being assigned this investigation. 

The fact that an investigation took place is not disturbing given that a compliant was made.  The fact that a suspena was issued when no criminal wrongdoing was found is disturbing.

And yet no explanation as to why the information on the blogger was handed over to FBCJ. What about that Sheriff? Explain why that information was handed over if it, at that point, was internal police business.

It's still fishy, and still illegal. I hope something is done.

"Conflict of interests can be defined as any situation in which an individual or corporation (either private or governmental) is in a position to exploit a professional or official capacity in some way for their personal or corporate benefit." -Wiki

Can someone explain the above to me. Apparently being a member of the church your investigating  a "crime" against doesn't fall into it.

Mayberry RFD

I was a member under Homer Lindsey Jr. back in 1980. Homer was always very careful to see that every cent possible went into ministry to the city, the poor, the needy etc... I remember once when he explained the 1st large auditorium he said, "look at the walls, do you know what we used? Just plain plywood with a nice stain, why? Because we should be good stewards of our money.

When we left the area we became Lutherans. As we found a Bible teaching, and loving church.

When I came back to town a couple of years ago, we visited FBC and there was something we felt wrong about. The congregation had shrunk? the spirit seemed low? and judgemental? I don't know what it was but it just didn't feel like home.

It's sad to see such a powerful church, which really could be the catalyst for a new downtown, and perhaps even a new way of life, fall prey to this sort of moneyism. BTW, the church DOES PAY property taxes on all buildings used for commercial purposes - as far as I know that is the Garages. They also pay for the traffic patrol when service traffic comes in or out. Traffic control is something even smaller churches are using more and more.

I could see a Homer Lindsey school for the unemployed, a place where jobs and the poor come together. Feeding programs, dorms, rehab, all sorts of things. I know the church DOES do some of this, but with a budget that big, they could account for every homeless body and every hooker in town. Something just didn't feel right...Thank you Jesus.

OCKLAWAHA

Did the FBC break out the high beams on the lighthouse again?

The T-U is running a follow up article today for those that missed it.  These were some quotes that grabbed my attention:

Quote...Corey defended Hinson's notification of the church.

"Sometimes you need to know who has access to you, who has been watching you, who has been talking very negatively about you," Corey said.

Quote....Hinson followed department policy. It forbids officers from investigating matters involving their own families but permits looking into issues for friends, neighbors and churches, she said.

"Officers are called upon all the time by people they know ... to look into things they have concerns about," Smith said. "That's part of the JSO's relationship with the community."

Similar policies are commonplace among law enforcement agencies, said Roy Hudson, director of law enforcement services for the Tallahassee-based Florida Sheriff's Association.

Sounds right out of George Orwell's "1984" to me.

Full article:

QuoteFBC blogger feels privacy was violated
Law enforcement says his privacy rights weren't violated, but there are concerns about the investigation.

A formerly anonymous blogger says his First Amendment and privacy rights may have been violated when authorities revealed his identity to First Baptist Church in Jacksonville.

Police, the State Attorney's Office and a state law enforcement expert disagree.

But experts on criminal investigations, electronic privacy rights and constitutional law say the First Baptist case at the very least raises valid free speech and privacy questions.

Also disputed is whether the detective who identified and outed the blogger acted unethically because he belongs to the downtown megachurch and the security detail of its pastor, the Rev. Mac Brunson.

Since August 2007 Thomas Rich has blogged critically about Brunson's preaching and administrative style. Then a member of the church, Rich blasted everything from what he saw as the minister's extravagant salary and housing accommodations to what he described as a bullying preaching style and coercive fundraising tactics.

Rich said he plans to consult an attorney to determine if his free speech rights and privacy rights were violated when detective Robert Hinson of the Sheriff's Office sought and obtained this past fall the subpoenas that led to his unmasking. Banned from the church since December, Rich filed a complaint against the detective last week with the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office.

Some local and state law enforcement officials said Hinson acted ethically in investigating a case involving his own church. He also was correct to reveal Rich's name to church leaders even after determining no crimes were committed, they said. Current and past prosecutors said the subpoenas issued to Google were properly obtained.

"If it happened again we would handle it the same way," Undersheriff Frank Mackesy said.

Standards for subpoenas

The investigation began Sept. 29 after the church's top administrator, the Rev. John Blount, called Hinson directly, asking him to determine if stolen mail and surreptitious photos of Brunson's wife were related to heightened "vitriol" on Rich's blog, fbcjaxwatch dog.blogspot.com.

As a member of the Sheriff's Office intelligent unit, one of Hinson's responsibilities includes investigating threats against the city's major religious institutions, Mackesy said.

But a subsequent police report omitted any mention of stolen mail or suspicious photographs. It reported only Blount's concern about "an ongoing internet incident with possible criminal overtones."

Mackesy said it's not unusual for some information to be left off of reports to avoid tipping off suspects.

Both State Attorney Angela Corey and her predecessor, Harry Shorstein, said the "Internet incident" issue by itself was enough to justify the subpoenas Hinson sought for Rich's blog. Hinson also subpoenaed two additional blogs that don't focus on First Baptist.

"It may be nothing more than the police officer saying 'this person may be threatening' and we would issue the subpoena," said Shorstein, who was in office at the time of Hinson's investigation.

He added that a much higher burden of proof and a judge's approval are needed to obtain wire taps and search warrants.

First Amendment issues

But Shorstein said he is disturbed that Hinson gave the church Rich's name despite finding no wrongdoing and closed the case Nov. 13. This raises free speech issues, Shorstein said.

"I think it would be inappropriate to use the subpoena power to aid a church or any entity ... to stop someone from using their First Amendment privileges," Shorstein said.

It also could be a violation of a federal privacy act, said John Verdi, staff counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington. The organization seeks to draw public attention to digital privacy and civil rights issues.

The 1986 Electronic Communications Privacy Act requires law enforcement to have legitimate criminal concerns or accusations before seeking the identities of users of any electronic media, including blogs, e-mail, text messages and telephones, Verdi said.

According to the act, "investigations are intended to determine whether a crime has been committed ... and aren't typically undertaken to provide information to private individuals or entities, businesses churches or anything like that," Verdi said.

But Corey defended Hinson's notification of the church.

"Sometimes you need to know who has access to you, who has been watching you, who has been talking very negatively about you," Corey said.

In an age when church shootings and other incidents are commonplace, ministers and law enforcement must be sensitive to every possible threat, she said.

Besides, Corey said, imagine what would happen if the officer didn't reveal the name in a similar situation.

"If a shooting occurred, then the media would be asking why [law enforcement] didn't warn the pastor."

Conflict of interest?

Rich also has complained that the Sheriff's Office allowed Hinson to investigate a matter involving his own church.

Criminologist Concetta Culliver said it's a valid objection.

An officer should never investigate a crime in which he or she "is bound to have a vested interested" in the outcome, said Culliver, who teaches criminal investigation and ethics at Coppin State University in Baltimore.

Efforts should be made to prevent even the perception of a conflict of interest, she said.

"It's his own church and pastor," Culliver said. "That certainly is a big conflict of interest and, in my opinion, unethical."

Sheriff's Office spokeswoman Lauri-Ellen Smith said Hinson followed department policy. It forbids officers from investigating matters involving their own families but permits looking into issues for friends, neighbors and churches, she said.

"Officers are called upon all the time by people they know ... to look into things they have concerns about," Smith said. "That's part of the JSO's relationship with the community."

Similar policies are commonplace among law enforcement agencies, said Roy Hudson, director of law enforcement services for the Tallahassee-based Florida Sheriff's Association.

Investigating a case involving an officer's own church doesn't carry the ethical concerns investigations involving family do, he said.

"Yes church is like a family, but it's not a blood relation," he said. If churches are off limits to church-member officers, then banks, schools and other institutions the investigator has connections with should be, too, Hudson said.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-04-12/story/fbc_blogger_feels_privacy_was_violated

And that's why I didn't vote for Corey.

So, will this be swept under the rug?

It has...and if I was FBC... I would not hesitate in the least to do something like it again.  The blogger has said he is looking at his legal options.  He is the only one who can keep this issue alive.

Worth repeating!

Quote from: stjr on April 12, 2009, 02:37:50 AM

Quote...Corey defended Hinson's notification of the church.

"Sometimes you need to know who has access to you, who has been watching you, who has been talking very negatively about you," Corey said.

Quote....Hinson followed department policy. It forbids officers from investigating matters involving their own families but permits looking into issues for friends, neighbors and churches, she said.

"Officers are called upon all the time by people they know ... to look into things they have concerns about," Smith said. "That's part of the JSO's relationship with the community."

Similar policies are commonplace among law enforcement agencies, said Roy Hudson, director of law enforcement services for the Tallahassee-based Florida Sheriff's Association.

Sounds right out of George Orwell's "1984" to me. 

Bridge, unlike the $ky-high-way, this we can agree on! 8):

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 14, 2009, 12:36:09 PM
It has...and if I was FBC... I would not hesitate in the least to do something like it again.  The blogger has said he is looking at his legal options.  He is the only one who can keep this issue alive.

Ok, Corey is officialy a stupid b***h.

Yeah I said it, so what, she sucks at her job anyways and basically is a puppet to Peyton and his administration. I can not wait to get my first chance to vote for a new mayor here. When is the election?!

Quote from: stjr on April 14, 2009, 08:08:33 PM
Worth repeating!

Quote from: stjr on April 12, 2009, 02:37:50 AM

Quote...Corey defended Hinson's notification of the church.

"Sometimes you need to know who has access to you, who has been watching you, who has been talking very negatively about you," Corey said.

Quote....Hinson followed department policy. It forbids officers from investigating matters involving their own families but permits looking into issues for friends, neighbors and churches, she said.

"Officers are called upon all the time by people they know ... to look into things they have concerns about," Smith said. "That's part of the JSO's relationship with the community."

Similar policies are commonplace among law enforcement agencies, said Roy Hudson, director of law enforcement services for the Tallahassee-based Florida Sheriff's Association.

Sounds right out of George Orwell's "1984" to me. 

Bridge, unlike the $ky-high-way, this we can agree on! 8):

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 14, 2009, 12:36:09 PM
It has...and if I was FBC... I would not hesitate in the least to do something like it again.  The blogger has said he is looking at his legal options.  He is the only one who can keep this issue alive.

Agree, this whole situation is outrageous.   The idea that the state can do this is legally is mind boggling.   Has anyone, there has to be some lawyers on here, Chris, Chris?  Is this truly legal, can someone gain a soupena on just this type of information?  Is this in fact standard practice?

...Corey defended Hinson's notification of the church.

"Sometimes you need to know who has access to you, who has been watching you, who has been talking very negatively about you," Corey said.

Bloggers website...

http://www.fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/

Here is another followup article from the Associated Baptist Press covering this incident with JSO: http://www.abpnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4001&Itemid=53

The excerpt below shows a connection between FBC's Vines, Gilyard, AND one of the other blogs that JSO investigated.  Apparently, it was "hounding" Gilyard and dragged Vines into the picture.  The third site just happened to share a similar critical purpose regarding another church and the server with Rich.

Quote
After the news broke in local media, Brunson released a statement just before Easter: "This week the entire Christian world is celebrating God's greatest gift to mankind ... Jesus Christ. We pray and deeply desire that these unmerited distractions will be preempted by the majesty of his sacrificial death and life giving resurrection."

Brunson didn't mention the controversy directly in his Easter sermon, but confessed he is not "inerrant" or "infallible" but yet has a God-given responsibility to "guard the flock of God."

"As long as I am pastor, with every ounce of energy I have, I will guard this congregation to the best of my ability," he said.

The subpoena issued to find Rich's identity also sought the same information for two other blogs.

An anonymous blogger that writes about similar matters related to Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, Tenn., said he or she has no connection with the Jacksonville website, but has agreed to share some server space with Rich.

Tiffany Croft, who has never blogged anonymously, writes about Darrell Gilyard, another prominent Baptist minister who has repeatedly been accused of sexual misconduct. Although she has on occasion criticized the former First Baptist pastor, Vines, for supporting Gilyard, she said it was an invasion of privacy for detectives to investigate her.

Here is a national column on Google's role in all this at WebProNews ( http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/04/13/google-helps-out-anonymous-blogger):

Quote
Google Helps Identify Anonymous Blogger
By Jason Lee Miller - Mon, 04/13/2009 - 12:25

A subpoena is a subpoena is a subpoena

Free speech has always been an irritant to those who become the target of it; freedom in general is a frightening concept to some because of the broad blanket it throws over the righteous and the sinful alike. And as always it seems many people support the freedom concept so long as it supplies protections for the liberties they themselves choose to enjoyâ€"enjoy the wrong set of liberties and you’ll suddenly find far fewer true believers in the founding principles of the American experiment.

Google makes no such philosophical judgments anymore when dealing with subpoenas. The search engine made its (eventually failed) grand stand against the Department of Justice’s demand for search records a couple of years ago. Since then, any document coming from a law enforcement agency has been treated as sacrosanct.

The most recent incident involves handing over information to the Jacksonville, Fla. Sheriff’s Dept. to help identify an anonymous blogger critical of the pastor of a local Baptist megachurch. In September of last year, the pastor, John Blount, filed a police report regarding “possible criminal overtones” on the blog FBCJaxWatchdog, hosted on Google’s Blogspot service.

Once Robert Hinson, the detective assigned to the case, received a subpoena requiring Google “to provide all information, including names, screen names and address, of the anonymous writer,” Google blindly complied. Though Hinson closed the investigation because he found no criminal activity, the church issued a trespass warning to Thomas Rich and his wife, apparently now excommunicated from First Baptist Church. Hanson has investigated two other bloggers as well.

What’s very important to note here is that, despite the Sheriff’s office saying the detective was just doing his job, law enforcement was able to force Google to reveal the identities of a law abiding citizens exercising their right to anonymous free speech based on accusations of possible criminal overtones in written communication, not based on any actual evidence of wrongdoing. In effect, Blount and Hinson, and Google by default, presumed Rich guilty until proven innocent.

The power structure’s desire to strip anonymity from the digital landscape is reaching disturbing levels. It has grown beyond the “three times makes a trend” rule in journalism and becomes a full-blown epidemicâ€"it’s happening all over the country and world. A Kentucky legislator was famously shouted down for introducing a bill that would outlaw anonymous commentary. An Alaskan politician recently outed an anonymous critic for no reason other than he didn’t like anonymous bloggers. German police raided a Wikileaks volunteer because of the anonymous leak and posting of a secret Australian website blacklist.

A bill recently introduced in the US Congress and passed by the House of the Representatives at the end of March is intended to prevent the federal government from compelling a journalist from revealing his or her sources. However, it still contains language defining who is considered a journalist, and by default, who is not. According to the bill’s language, an unpaid, unprofitable blogger would enjoy no such protections.

Quite obviously no branch of the government (apparently anywhere) cares about the First Amendment rights anonymous bloggers or nonprofit, gadfly bloggers. And, as per usual, where the government actively seeks to deny the rights of citizens in the digital realm, the citizens will find no refuge in terms of service agreements of large corporations, nor in surface-level digital democracies.

Like your privacy, your right to anonymity is an illusion.

QuoteLike your privacy, your right to anonymity is an illusion.

So much for screen names and avatars... :o

There are plenty of ways to blog anonymously. FBCJ Watchdog just didn't think it was necessary to take any precautions. Now we know it is.

http://www.jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2009-04-16/story/jso_and_first_baptist_troubling_issues

JSO and First Baptist: Troubling issues
Story updated at 1:24 AM on Thursday, Apr. 16, 2009

The case, now closed, involving a police investigation of a blogger and First Baptist Church raises serious issues.

First, there is a perception that one of Jacksonville's most influential institutions used its influence with the Sheriff's Office against a man who had been criticizing it. This raises free speech issues.

Second, the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office has ethics rules that allows an investigator who works on the security detail of the church he attends to conduct the investigation.

Sheriff John Rutherford has stated that his department acted appropriately in every respect. See his statement on this page.

The fact that an investigation was conducted and that information was shared with the complainant is routine practice, he said.

The investigator who conducted the work was only doing his regular job, the same actions he would take if any other faith group issued a complaint, Rutherford said.

But there are several factors that raise troubling concerns:

Weak link to criminal activity: The church was concerned about stolen mail and photos taken of the pastor's wife. But linking them to a critical blogger seemed a stretch. While the blogger's posts were critical, they did not appear to justify a police investigation.

As Rutherford wrote in his statement, the investigation was shut down because "no criminal conduct or significant threat to the church was determined to exist."

Beef up JSO's ethics code: The code forbids officers from investigating matters involving their families, JSO spokeswoman Lauri-Ellen Smith told the Times-Union, but permits probes involving friends, neighbors and churches.

Conflicts could arise in any area in which officers have close personal involvement. That could include businesses, schools, outside activities, and, especially, their places of worship. In this case, the investigating officer had both a religious and business relationship.

The Sheriff's Office should reexamine its ethics code, perhaps in concert with the city's ethics office, to prevent similar situations from happening.

The goal should be to avoid perceptions of favoritism. This case certainly fostered that perception.

And, as expected, the lawsuit sequel.  This should be fun to watch!  ;)

Quote
Jacksonville blogger files suit over his identity being outed
He says the sheriff named him, violating the First Amendment.

    * By Jeff Brumley
    * Story updated at 12:15 AM on Tuesday, Apr. 28, 2009


A Jacksonville blogger filed a lawsuit Monday claiming police and state prosecutors violated his constitutional rights to anonymity and free speech in a 2008 criminal case "fabricated" solely to uncover his identity for First Baptist Church.

The lawsuit also claims the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office and State Attorney's Office violated the First Amendment's establishment clause by disclosing the blogger's name to the downtown megachurch. Doing so amounted to taking sides in a religious dispute between the blogger, Thomas Rich, and the church, according the suit.

The suit does not name First Baptist as a defendant because only government agencies can be held accountable for the violation of citizens' free speech rights, said Rich's attorney, Michael Roberts.

The suit seeks damages of at least $15,000 - the minimum required to file a case in Duval County - for what it describes as the ongoing "emotional anguish, emotional distress and loss of enjoyment of life" as a result of Rich and his wife being barred from the church they had attended for 20 years. The couple joined another Southern Baptist church as a result.

Rich launched his blog in August 2007. In it, Rich chastised Pastor Mac Brunson and other First Baptist Church leaders on everything from salary and housing to fundraising priorities and ministry objectives.

Rich said Monday he wanted to remain anonymous partly to keep the focus on the issues and he feared retribution.

The lawsuit rejects police's assertion the investigation was meant to protect the congregation's safety.

"The criminal investigation was fabricated to create the illusion of legitimacy but was, in fact, a mere pretext for the disclosure" of Rich's identity to the church, the lawsuit says.

Church officials could not be reached Monday. But the top administrator, the Rev. John Blount, has told the Times-Union he called Detective Robert Hinson last fall to report increasing vitriol on FBCJaxWatchdog. blogspot.com, Rich's then-anonymous blog.

Blount said he also told Hinson, a church member, that mail had been stolen from Brunson's home and that a stalker had taken photos of Brunson's wife. Although police reports were never filed on those incidents, the church wanted to know if the blog, letters and photographs were connected, Blount said.

The investigation, which lasted from Sept. 29 to Nov. 13, ended with no criminal findings.

Sheriff's spokeswoman Lauri-Ellen Smith had no comment on the lawsuit.

Assistant State Attorney Stephen Siegel is named as a defendant because he approved Hinson's requests for subpoenas to Google and Comcast for all information related to the blogger.

State Attorney Angela Corey, who was not in office at the time of the investigation, said she hadn't seen the lawsuit but added she thinks proper procedures were followed in issuing the subpoenas. She said she plans to look into the matter.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-04-28/story/jacksonville_blogger_files_suit_over_his_identity_being_outed

Give em hell Mr. Rich!

Don't allow this to get swept under the rug. I wish him the best.

That mail and stalker piece is such a crock of shyt. I hope this detective loses his job and pension, save us some money. The SA should get slapped with at least a reprimand or more.

Here comes the civil suit!

http://www.news4jax.com/news/20161425/detail.html (http://www.news4jax.com/news/20161425/detail.html)

QuoteJACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- The controversy started on a blog called fbcjaxwatchdog and now the man behind the blog has filed a defamation lawsuit against his former church.

Thomas Rich was unhappy with things going on in the church when Mac Brunson took over as the new pastor. Rich is suing his former church and Brunson for reasons that include defamation and fraud.

“Mr. Rich feels that it's his civic duty and religious duty,” said attorney Michael Roberts. “He's had to leave the church because of what they've done.”

Roberts said his client was airing out grievances on his blog when they claim First Baptist asked a church-goer, who happens to be a member of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office, to find out who was responsible for the then anonymous blog. Rich was essentially "outed" as the blogger.

In a statement from Rich he writes, "then they found out my identity, they never once contacted me according to scripture and their church teachings, but had trespass warnings delivered to me and my wife.”

“It's created other problems at his new church,” Roberts said. “We believe First Baptist has contacted his new church asking that church to somehow sanction Mr. Rich.”

The suit cites an article from the Florida Times Union where it said Pastor Brunson described Rich as "(1) obsessive compulsive (2) unstable and (3) a sociopath."

“Tom Rich is not a sociopath,” Roberts said. “I invite anyone to go to this blog.”

The church released the following statement:

“Despite numerous efforts by the church to facilitate resolution privately and in accordance with Holy Scripture, Mr. Rich has been unwilling to participate. Having made every effort to settle this matter biblically, the Church stands ready to have the matter addressed according to law, though this is not, and never has been our desire.”

“Their side of the story will be able to be told, but we believe the facts will show that they made mistakes, serious mistakes,” said Roberts. “And they weren't honest mistakes, they were intended to hurt Mr. Rich.”

I'm more concerned with what the Sheriff's Office did than the church.

Quote from: copperfiend on July 24, 2009, 01:17:55 PM
I'm more concerned with what the Sheriff's Office did than the church.

I think: "The suit cites an article from the Florida Times Union where it said Pastor Brunson described Rich as "(1) obsessive compulsive (2) unstable and (3) a sociopath." - raises concern that FBC one of the most powerful entities in Jax is capable of such slander.

Don't get me wrong. I am disgusted by both. I hope he gets everything he can from FBC. I think it is very inappropriate for a church pastor to refer to someone as a "sociopath".

I have a question about another church's activities.  Again, I've tried to find this "thread" but have had no luck.
 
I tried searching for a headline: "Islam is of the devil," but I can't find it on Metro Jacksonville.  It's shown up elsewhere.  I believe it is wrong for a church to post a sign (they may have taken it down by now) which says "Islam is of the devil."

I think it is wrong to say such a thing about a religion, a people or a way of life.  My opinion is that in posting such a sign, that church may well be doing the work of Satan unaware since one of his principles, or so I've read, is to create discord among others so that his works won't be noticed as well.

Quote from: macbeth25 on July 24, 2009, 02:15:33 PM
I have a question about another church's activities.  Again, I've tried to find this "thread" but have had no luck.
 
I tried searching for a headline: "Islam is of the devil," but I can't find it on Metro Jacksonville.  It's shown up elsewhere.  I believe it is wrong for a church to post a sign (they may have taken it down by now) which says "Islam is of the devil."

I think it is wrong to say such a thing about a religion, a people or a way of life.  My opinion is that in posting such a sign, that church may well be doing the work of Satan unaware since one of his principles, or so I've read, is to create discord among others so that his works won't be noticed as well.

Wth does this have to do with this FBC lawsuit?

In addition to FBC, I'd consider filing suit against the JSO officer as well, because what he did was totally out of line and an abuse of power.

Quote from: reednavy on July 24, 2009, 02:41:18 PM

Quote from: macbeth25 on July 24, 2009, 02:15:33 PM
I have a question about another church's activities.  Again, I've tried to find this "thread" but have had no luck.
 
I tried searching for a headline: "Islam is of the devil," but I can't find it on Metro Jacksonville.  It's shown up elsewhere.  I believe it is wrong for a church to post a sign (they may have taken it down by now) which says "Islam is of the devil."

I think it is wrong to say such a thing about a religion, a people or a way of life.  My opinion is that in posting such a sign, that church may well be doing the work of Satan unaware since one of his principles, or so I've read, is to create discord among others so that his works won't be noticed as well.

Wth does this have to do with this FBC lawsuit?

In addition to FBC, I'd consider filing suit against the JSO officer as well, because what he did was totally out of line and an abuse of power.

That ship has sailed. JSO has stood behind the officers actions and found them with in the law. However a civil suit vs FBC should be an easy win.

Nothing, really.  Have you seen the comment elsewhere on Metro Jacksonville?  Perhaps I can start a new thread.  I think it would be worth discussing, though probably not here.

Quote from: macbeth25 on July 24, 2009, 03:08:00 PM
Nothing, really.  Have you seen the comment elsewhere on Metro Jacksonville?  Perhaps I can start a new thread.  I think it would be worth discussing, though probably not here.

I was gunna say this site probably isn't the best to discuss a religious quote like the one you're trying to find.

Quote from: Shwaz on July 24, 2009, 03:06:39 PM
That ship has sailed. JSO has stood behind the officers actions and found them with in the law. However a civil suit vs FBC should be an easy win.

Pfft, of course they'd stand behind him. IMO, he was abusing his power, but what can we say.

Anyways, anyone else hear about the Westboro nuts protesting last weekend outside FBC? I thought it was kinda funny actually, only when referring to the FBC, not the other stuff they love to slander.

I didn't see much news coverage of the Westboro Cult, which is awesome because that is what they feed on.  I'm hoping their lack of news coverage and personal engagement here will make them discouraged and they will go elsewhere.  When I lived in WI, they spent a good part of a year protesting military funerals all over the state until a law was passed making it illegal to protest at a funeral.  That sent them packing.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-09-17/story/jacksonvilles_first_baptist_church_seeks_to_dismiss_blogger%E2%80%99s_suit

God I hope FBC gets the book thrown at them.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 09, 2009, 09:12:57 AM
I want to thank Thomas A. Rich and http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com for shedding light on this group.  This is a clear attempt at intimidation and I hope Mr Rich has the strength to continue.  This may also be an abuse of power by JSO.  We have lawyers who read this... Any opinions?

You mean to tell me if we are not Baptist, that we are entitled to an opinion?  :)

Not to offend anyone that is a member of FBC, but growing in Jacksonville there has been alot of questionable things about how they are ran. ESPECIALLY when it comes to money. So something like this doesnt shock me. There have been rumors of people being sent to collections because they did not pay their tithes, etc etc. Like I said, not being offensive, just stating my opinion. I have visited there before and felt VERY uncomfortable.

They apparently have plenty of money.... as they own a good deal of land,and buildings downtown.

I have never been there..and I never would go. 

Just saw this update on the blogger case. Looks like the original subpoenas and information about the investigation on the identity of the blogger were inadvertantly destroyed during an office move.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/422234/paul-pinkham/2010-07-07/angela-corey-doesnt-have-testify-about-destroyed

I can see that... ::)

Completely unrelated, but I was in a car accident once (a long time ago, I was probably 14 at the time) with a driver who was a member of FBC.  This driver was completely in the wrong, by accidentally running a red light and hitting a car who had the right of way.  A third car that was behind the car that had the right of way stopped as a witness.  This witness recognized the driver in the wrong, walked over and said, "you look familiar, do you attend the First Baptist Church?”  Of course, even though he did no recognize to witness, was the reply.  When the police arrived the witness also recognized the officer as a member of FBC.  They both had a sidebar chat which resulted in the officer ticketing the innocent party, who was hit.  They tried to argue it, but failed to sway the officer.  That was the first time I witnessed the cult of FBC and was astonished.  To this day I have never truly trusted its members.

When you have Jesus on your side, you can do no wrong. ;)

I once had a warranty issue with a contractor.  His service manager had all the records when I called.  Later, when I requested copies, he said the file was "lost".  Hmmm..... I wonder what the State Attorney's office would make out of a target of their prosecution if that target lost records they thought were critical to their case.  Obstruction of justice?...

You can bet every defense attorney in town will file this story for use on a rainy day.

Quote from: stephendare on April 09, 2009, 03:00:27 PM

Quote from: Lunican on April 09, 2009, 08:23:37 AM

QuoteIt is no secret that Mac Brunson and the FBC Jax administration wanted very much to know my identity. Deacons have said so, that for over a year the church was working to find out my identity - Mac has even told deacons that the blogger was a disgruntled homosexual. Mac himself, just ONE WEEK before the Deacons 2009-1 Resolution was passed, preached on "Kingdom Killjoys", which he said were people in his church that take insignificant problems at the church, who blow them up into something big, and then talk about it to someone else to try to "rob their joy". His instructions to his church leaders, should they encounter such troublemakers was that they should be "SHUT DOWN", followed by a pregnant pause for effect. Watch it for yourself at the link below. Is this an example of a humble, patient, loving pastor teaching his people to love others, even those who might ask questions that he doesn't like? It looks and sounds to me to be a pastor who wishes to shut down people in an unloving, harsh manner, and has the audacity to instruct from the pulpit his leaders in the church to shut down people who are asking questions he doesn't like.

disgruntled homosexual?

  Whom is this supposed to be referring to ?  I am a little confused about this part.

Let us not confuse the Baptists, especially FBC, with other churches :) I am a proud Episcopalian, and we are quite the opposite.  We teach love/acceptance/forgiveness, not hate, and for various reasons, we get no love from certain city leaders (or from people in general) and we do not seek it even though we are probably (and the Catholic diocese of St. Augustine) the most giving dioceses/churches in the region.  Our members are the wealthiest in the city, but our priests' salaries just may be the lowest, because that is not a priority of the church to pay the priest $300K a year (which is like a top 50 salary in this city, heh).  The Episcopal church basically financed the Parks at the Cathedral, let us not forget that :)

By the way, for future reference, literally 90% of the top lawyers in town are either Episcopalian, Catholic, Presbyterian, or Methodist.  The lawyers I know are not members/fans of FBC.  None of the business leaders are FBC, and Peyton is not even FBC.  How the hek does FBC even hold so much weight, though it is a similar story in other cities.  Atlanta has about 5 Baptist churches that are even bigger than FBC (and being African American churches in a town politically controlled by African Americans, the churches hold a good bit of sway as well).  Also Dallas is pretty heavily influenced by its big central baptist church, so I have heard.

I don't think other churches are as interested in being showy (via television and huge congregations) and I know that most other churches have no interest in politics and will pray for whoever is in office.  Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it), other religions in this country (outside of Judaism in some areas) don't even have the option to flex power.

If FBC and Mel Gibson could stop publicly claiming to be Christian it would be a lot less embarrassing to we actual Christians.  I want them to pursue Christianity just in a more private fashion.

My Grandfather was a Minister at Riverside Avenue Christian Church , prior to his passing in 1961, so I never met him... but I did learn of a saying he had , that I belive to be true. He said "Going to Church does not make one a Christian anymore than standing in a Garage makes one an Automobile" ... I like that, and I believe it to be true.   Lord knows I am far from perfect, so I try not to be too critical of others ...meaning individuals.. I have heard some "Christians" who , to me at least , feel they have the right to be Judge, Jury and executioner.  I was raised in a Baptist Church... Not FBC  Jacksonville... but even back then I was taught that only one being gets to judge..   :)  Not preaching to any particular person (s)...  It is not my right.

in the same vain as a tree falling in the forest, if you have no faith, are you judged in the end?

Quote from: iluvolives on July 07, 2010, 04:52:47 PM
Just saw this update on the blogger case. Looks like the original subpoenas and information about the investigation on the identity of the blogger were inadvertantly destroyed during an office move.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/422234/paul-pinkham/2010-07-07/angela-corey-doesnt-have-testify-about-destroyed

What a joke. The FBC mafia.

stjr?

Quote from: JaxNative68 on July 08, 2010, 03:34:06 PM
in the same vain as a tree falling in the forest, if you have no faith, are you judged in the end?

I personally do not believe one has to attend A N Y church to have faith. I could be wrong,,, I have been many times :)

Quote from: brainstormer on July 07, 2010, 06:38:23 PM
When you have Jesus on your side, you can do no wrong. ;)

That sounds like the thinking that lead about the mass salughter brought on from the holy crusades. Who claimed to have Jesus on their side. I belive that was wrong, so clearly this statement is false.

As long as you are human it doesnt matter what religion if any you have you can do wrong.







Unless you belong to the faith of the Flying Spaghetti Monster which teaches righteousness and forbids evil.

Well-put Sport Motor

I think it was Mark Twain who said, "Evil people do evil things, but to get good people to do evil things takes religion."

Quote from: Dog Walker on July 10, 2010, 02:56:53 PM
I think it was Mark Twain who said, "Evil people do evil things, but to get good people to do evil things takes religion."

The best Mark Twain story about that subject: The Mysterious Stranger

Good for the blogger.  A happy resolve.  I find it funny that the Sheriff's office even has to provide training to cops of the basic first amendment rights.

Officers receive regular training in Constitutional rights, State and local law and arrest procedure.   But it IS fun to be lectured at by bloggers.  ;)

City attorney's do it all the time.  "Settling out of court" is a common tactic.  As usual, you count on a short article written by someone you don't know for all of your facts.  I realize that is all that is available to you, yet there is no effort to investigate, no effort to find or verify facts, just...no effort.  It is much easier to sit in the coffee shop and make "pronouncements".   If the Police acted in such a way THEN you might have a story.  Enjoy your Constitutional right of free speech.  Everyone has it, most should prepare themselves much more before employing that right. 

As you have stated many times here, StephenDare!, not everything in print is true or accurate.

;););)

Is the city paying or FBC? It looked like it was FBC, but the article seemed poorly written. In any case I am glad, they should of taken this opportunity to remove FBC's relgious standing and got them shut down once and for all!

City and State paid the settlement.

Taxpayer dollars out the door again................FBC should have had to pay out also since someone in their organization contacted JSO in this matter! FBC got off lucky, unless the blogger is lining them up in his sights now!

Does anyone know about the history of FBC and the homeless shelters around town?  It's just weird.    

Every time I drive around that part of down town, I'm kind of amazed at the contrast between the old about to fall apart homeless facilities which are right next to the shining clean brand new buildings of FBC.  For some reason, I see the homeless are willing to congregate around the homeless facilities but it looks like none of them dare to step foot anywhere on the FBC campus.  

There is a forcefield of sanctimonious BS that keeps the "less-than"s away from FBCJ.  Maybe the solution for DT is to let FBCJ buy up enormous swaths of property and turn it into one big Christian Mecca.  Oh wait...

I was thinking about FBCJ this evening while tottering along on the Skyway. With 9 city blocks (of which 3 or 4 are the loathsome parking garages), they have done nothing to actually improve downtown except as it relates to their area (which is only marginally populated during the week and only really gets hopping when it's time to pass the hat on Sundays).  There's no room to put in a street-level coffee-shop or other transit related amenities on State or Union 'cause FSCJ takes up one side and FBCJ takes up the other.  Hmmm.  Can we get the folks over at the City Rescue Mission to open up a little something?  Maybe kick the sad BoA branch out and give us coffee!  That'll get the white folk on transit.  Coffee and giant muffins within walking distance.

Too bad FBC did not have to pony up, the article said the detective was an FBC member, and this all started with them.

Quote from: NotNow on October 20, 2010, 05:13:45 PM
StephenDare!, not everything in print is true or accurate.

Having read a lot of police reports, trust me we know that!

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 21, 2010, 02:16:00 PM

Quote from: NotNow on October 20, 2010, 05:13:45 PM
StephenDare!, not everything in print is true or accurate.

Having read a lot of police reports, trust me we know that!

Amen.

Spoken like a true barrister.  We all know of the legal professions total dedication to truth!  ;););)

 ;)+1

Or Steven Silkowski!

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2010-06-25/story/jacksonville-lawyer-sentenced-stealing-82-year-old-client

Quote from: NotNow on October 21, 2010, 06:01:15 PM
Or Steven Silkowski!

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2010-06-25/story/jacksonville-lawyer-sentenced-stealing-82-year-old-client

Well you know, lawyers (and the rest of the taxpaying public) don't get the benefit of having the cops covering up for them whenever they do something wrong. Like this typical situation, where this wonderful JSO officer smashed into the back of a dump truck while speeding home from the bar, then ranted drunkenly for an hour and a half and pissed all over the floor of the squad car they put him in. Naturally, after all of this, the investigating officer STILL cut him a break and decided not to conduct a DUI arrest;

http://www.news4jax.com/news/24357677/detail.html

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2010-07-22/story/fhp-reviews-its-actions-jacksonville-police-dui-case

I'm sure the average citizen would have received the same treatment, right?

It's probably a bit easier to stay out of trouble when you know that you can never be busted for anything.

Garza was turned in and investigated by JSO Officers, doing what they are supposed to do. 

Boyer was released by an FHP Trooper, and the JSO supervisor promptly detained him, transported him for a breath test, and called IA, just as he is supposed to do.

As for "getting away with it":




Eight Attorneys Disbarred In Florida
Posted on Monday, 2 of August , 2010 at 11:40 am
TALLAHASSEE, FLAâ€"The Florida Supreme Court in recent court orders has disciplined 27 attorneys, disbarring eight and suspending 17. Some attorneys received more than one form of discipline. Two attorneys were publicly reprimanded and three were placed on probation. Three were ordered to pay restitution.

As an official agency of the Florida Supreme Court, The Florida Bar and its Department of Lawyer Regulation are charged with administering a statewide disciplinary system to enforce Supreme Court rules of professional conduct for the 88,000-plus lawyers admitted to practice law in Florida.

Since Aug. 1, 2007, case files have been posted to attorneys’ individual Florida Bar profiles and may be reviewed at and/or downloaded from The Florida Bar’s website, www.floridabar.org.

Court orders are not final until time expires to file a rehearing motion and, if filed, determined. The filing of such a motion does not alter the effective date of the discipline. Disbarred lawyers may not re-apply for admission for five years. They are required to go through an extensive process that rejects many who apply. It includes a rigorous background check and retaking the bar exam. Historically, fewer than 5 percent of disbarred lawyers seek readmission.

The following lawyers are disciplined:

Charles Behm, P.O. Box 10 , Pomona Park, permanently disbarred following a July 1 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1999) Behm failed to file income tax returns from 1999 to the present. He declared in court that he has no intention of filing federal income tax returns in the future. He also failed to prepare and maintain certain trust account records.

Joseph Edward Broadus, 641 1st St. S., Saint Petersburg, placed on probation for an additional 18 months, effective immediately, following a June 17 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1986) Broadus was held in contempt of the Court for failing to comply with the terms of his probation by failing to follow through with the requirements of a Florida Lawyers Assistance, Inc. contract, and failing to pay the monthly monitoring fee. In September 2007, he was placed on 18 months probation.

Steven M. Busch, P.O. Box 4305, Fort Lauderdale, suspended for three years effective immediately, following a June 3 court order. Busch is currently suspended, so the suspension shall run concurrently with the one imposed in February 2008. (Admitted to practice: 1974) Further, Busch shall pay restitution of $1,500 to one client. Busch acted in contempt of the Supreme Court of Florida by holding himself out as an attorney in good standing and practicing law after the effective date of his suspension. Busch failed to notify clients, opposing counsel and the courts that he was suspended.

Rudolph C. Campbell, P.O. Box 546, Lutz, disbarred effective 30 days from a June 3 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1998) Further, Campbell shall pay restitution of $1,500 to one client. Campbell used his law firm as a loan modification and foreclosure assistance business. He charged up-front fees to homeowners, in violation of the Foreclosure Rescue Fraud Prevention Act, Florida Statute, 501.1377; he used deceptive advertising and he failed to respond in writing to an inquiry from The Florida Bar.

John Everette Evans III, P.O. Box 1653, Fort Myers, suspended until further order, following a June 15 court order. (Admitted to practice: 2005) According to a petition for emergency suspension, Evans appeared to be causing great public harm by engaging in a repeated pattern of neglect and abandonment of his clients.

Harvey Jay Goldstein, P.O. Box 240037, Milwaukee, Wis., suspended until further order, following a June 3 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1987) According to a petition for emergency suspension, Goldstein appeared to be causing great public harm by converting nearly $70,000 from three probate estates while acting as an administrator and using the funds to pay personal and business expenses and to finance real estate deals. Those incidents resulted in his suspension in Wisconsin.

Gary W Gramer, 181 Southbay Drive, Suite 2, Naples, disbarred retroactive to Jan. 13, following a June 3 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1973) Gramer was found guilty of grand larceny in the third degree in Suffolk County Court, N.Y.

Carolyn Marie Holt, 2202 N. West Shore Blvd., Suite 200, Tampa, suspended for 91 days, effective 30 days from a June 4 court order. Further, upon reinstatement, Holt is placed on probation for one year. (Admitted to practice: 1997) During the course of representing a client in a civil matter, Holt intentionally misled the court and opposing counsel by making false statements to a judge. She later made false statements to The Florida Bar and the grievance committee.

Christine Marie Horn, 3469 W. Boynton Beach Blvd., Suite 15, Boynton Beach, disbarred effective immediately, following a June 17 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1980) Horn was suspended on an emergency basis in November 2009. A Bar audit revealed trust account shortages ranging from more than $3,000 in September 2006 to nearly $314,000 in October 2008.

Thomas Lemuel Hurst, 822 N.E. 96th St., Miami, disbarred effective immediately, following a June 3 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1972) Hurst, who previously had been suspended three times from practicing law, failed to respond to inquiries from The Florida Bar regarding a case alleging he misappropriated a client’s funds; and he failed to appear at a court-mandated final hearing.

Tolly Albert Kennon III, P.O. Box 34006, Charlotte, N.C., suspended for three years, retroactive to April 3, following a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1998) This is a reciprocal discipline case. In September 2009, Kennon was suspended from practicing law in North Carolina for three years. Kennon represented two criminal defendants in two separate cases in North Carolina. In both instances, Kennon advised witnesses for the prosecution as to the way they should handle subpoenas they received. Kennon did not advise either to seek independent counsel.

John Joseph Liu, P.O. Box 277, Safety Harbor, suspended for 91 days, retroactive to July 17, 2009, following a June 17 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1993) Liu failed to respond in writing to inquiries from The Florida Bar regarding the status of his trust account, which had been overdrawn. Nor did he appear for a hearing, despite being served a notice at his official Bar address.

Michael H. Lubin, 16831 N.E. 15th Ave., North Miami Beach, disbarred effective 30 days from a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1981) Lubin misappropriated a portion of the funds he received from a client to hold in trust.

Miguel Angel Montalvo, Apartado Postal 2, Salvatierra, Guanajuato, Mexico, to be publicly reprimanded following a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1994) During the course of representing a client, Montalvo discontinued his law practice in Immokalee and relocated to Mexico. He failed to inform the client that he’d withdrawn from the representation and he failed to respond to inquiries by the Bar regarding the complaint failed by the client.

Dominyka Mindaougas Netchiounas, 2203 N. Lois Ave., Suite 953, Tampa, suspended until further order, effective 30 days from a June 23 court order. (Admitted to practice: 2002) Netchiounas willfully failed to respond to official Bar and grievance committee inquiries regarding a complaint.

Gary Stephen Ostrow, 3000 N.E. 30th Place, Suite 301, Fort Lauderdale, suspended for 30 days, effective Aug. 1, following a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1982) Ostrow was arrested in May 2008 and charged with cocaine possession. In December 2009, Ostrow successfully completed a drug court program and the charge was dismissed.

Matthew Glenn Palentchar, 16 Caton Ave., Colonia, N.J., suspended until further order, effective 30 days from a June 1 court order. (Admitted to practice: 2004) Palentchar failed to comply with a subpoena requesting that he produce trust account records on or before Jan. 15.

Robert Joseph Ratiner, 3225 Aviation Ave., Suite 600, Miami, suspended for 60 days, publicly reprimanded and placed on probation for two years, following a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1990) During a deposition, Ratiner’s behavior was disruptive and intimidating to the witness, opposing counsel and other persons present. While on probation, Ratiner is required to undergo mental health counseling and prepare and mail letters of apology to those who were present during the deposition at issue. Further, Ratiner shall be accompanied by co-counsel approved by the Bar during depositions and other legal proceedings or he shall ensure that such appearances or proceedings are video-recorded.

J. Christopher Rich, 124 E. Rich Ave., Deland, suspended for 91 days, effective 30 days from a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1998) Between April 2007 and November 2009, Rich failed to provide diligent representation and adequate communication to several clients. He was reprimanded by a bankruptcy court judge and placed on one year probation for engaging in a pattern of misconduct that frequently led to the dismissal of his clients’ cases.

Jeffrey Stephen Rosenberg, 20201 E. Country Club Drive, Apt. 2104, Aventura, disbarred effective immediately, following a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1979) Rosenberg failed to explain the whereabouts of $27,750 placed in escrow with his title company for a client. During the course of a Bar investigation, Rosenberg agreed to disbarment.

David Philip Ryan III, 250 Catalonia Ave., Suite 804, Coral Gables, permanently disbarred effective immediately, following a June 17 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1997) Ryan misappropriated client trust funds for his personal use and he continued to practice law despite his suspension in March 2009. Also, Ryan produced some, but not all subpoenaed records requested by The Florida Bar, including bank statements, canceled checks, cash disbursements and client ledgers.

William Sumner Scott, 3109 Grand Avenue #183, Miami, suspended for three years, following a June 10 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1992) Scott was charged with having conflict of interest in representing clients and with making a false statement of material fact or law to a third party.

Kenneth Paul Sirkin, 2500 Quantum Lakes Drive, Suite 203, Boynton Beach, suspended for three years, effective immediately, following a June 17 court order. (Admitted to practice: 2002) Sirkin failed to respond to official inquiries in 11 separate Bar complaints.

Mark David Swanson, 1521 Alton Road 684, Miami Beach, suspended for 50 days, effective thirty days from a May 20 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1984) Swanson shall pay restitution totaling $9,300 to two clients in separate cases. In both instances, after being retained, Swanson failed to adequately communicate with the clients. He also failed to respond to inquiries from The Florida Bar and the grievance committee.

Harry Mark Vieth, 1500 San Remo Ave., Suite 145, Miami, suspended for one year, effective 30 days from a June 3 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1984) In one instance Vieth misled clients into believing that their case was progressing normally, when in fact, he had taken little action on their behalf. In another case, Vieth was retained to assist a military veteran in increasing his disability benefits and filing a retroactive claim. After obtaining a $1.5 million judgment, Vieth failed to file for payment and the client never received his money. As a result, the client was forced to retain new counsel. Despite numerous requests by the client to secure his medical records for a new lawsuit, Vieth failed to communicate with him

R. Scott Whitehead, 4507 Furling Lane, Suite 209, Destin, suspended until further order, following a June 9 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1998) According to a petition for emergency suspension, Whitehead engaged in a systematic scheme to deprive his clients of their money in the form of fees and costs, while not performing the legal services for which he was retained. Additionally, he was arrested four times for alcohol-related problems since May 2009.

Marvin Deon Wilson Sr., 14321 S.W. 286th St., Homestead, suspended for three years, effective retroactive to Dec. 1, 2008 following a May 27 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1998) A Bar audit found that Wilson used client funds for his own purposes. Wilson was subsequently charged with three felony counts: organized scheme to defraud, grand theft and money laundering. In another instance, Wilson failed to keep a client informed as to the status of her case. He also failed to timely respond to an inquiry about the case from The Florida Bar.  8-2-10

We can do this all night if you just want to keep everyone off of the thread.  I'm through with the juvenile insults.  Have a good evening.

Quote from: NotNow on October 21, 2010, 07:24:08 PM
Garza was turned in and investigated by JSO Officers, doing what they are supposed to do.  

Boyer was released by an FHP Trooper, and the JSO supervisor promptly detained him, transported him for a breath test, and called IA, just as he is supposed to do.

As for "getting away with it":




Eight Attorneys Disbarred In Florida
Posted on Monday, 2 of August , 2010 at 11:40 am
TALLAHASSEE, FLAâ€"The Florida Supreme Court in recent court orders has disciplined 27 attorneys, disbarring eight and suspending 17. Some attorneys received more than one form of discipline. Two attorneys were publicly reprimanded and three were placed on probation. Three were ordered to pay restitution.

As an official agency of the Florida Supreme Court, The Florida Bar and its Department of Lawyer Regulation are charged with administering a statewide disciplinary system to enforce Supreme Court rules of professional conduct for the 88,000-plus lawyers admitted to practice law in Florida.

Since Aug. 1, 2007, case files have been posted to attorneys’ individual Florida Bar profiles and may be reviewed at and/or downloaded from The Florida Bar’s website, www.floridabar.org.

Court orders are not final until time expires to file a rehearing motion and, if filed, determined. The filing of such a motion does not alter the effective date of the discipline. Disbarred lawyers may not re-apply for admission for five years. They are required to go through an extensive process that rejects many who apply. It includes a rigorous background check and retaking the bar exam. Historically, fewer than 5 percent of disbarred lawyers seek readmission.

The following lawyers are disciplined:

Charles Behm, P.O. Box 10 , Pomona Park, permanently disbarred following a July 1 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1999) Behm failed to file income tax returns from 1999 to the present. He declared in court that he has no intention of filing federal income tax returns in the future. He also failed to prepare and maintain certain trust account records.

Joseph Edward Broadus, 641 1st St. S., Saint Petersburg, placed on probation for an additional 18 months, effective immediately, following a June 17 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1986) Broadus was held in contempt of the Court for failing to comply with the terms of his probation by failing to follow through with the requirements of a Florida Lawyers Assistance, Inc. contract, and failing to pay the monthly monitoring fee. In September 2007, he was placed on 18 months probation.

Steven M. Busch, P.O. Box 4305, Fort Lauderdale, suspended for three years effective immediately, following a June 3 court order. Busch is currently suspended, so the suspension shall run concurrently with the one imposed in February 2008. (Admitted to practice: 1974) Further, Busch shall pay restitution of $1,500 to one client. Busch acted in contempt of the Supreme Court of Florida by holding himself out as an attorney in good standing and practicing law after the effective date of his suspension. Busch failed to notify clients, opposing counsel and the courts that he was suspended.

Rudolph C. Campbell, P.O. Box 546, Lutz, disbarred effective 30 days from a June 3 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1998) Further, Campbell shall pay restitution of $1,500 to one client. Campbell used his law firm as a loan modification and foreclosure assistance business. He charged up-front fees to homeowners, in violation of the Foreclosure Rescue Fraud Prevention Act, Florida Statute, 501.1377; he used deceptive advertising and he failed to respond in writing to an inquiry from The Florida Bar.

John Everette Evans III, P.O. Box 1653, Fort Myers, suspended until further order, following a June 15 court order. (Admitted to practice: 2005) According to a petition for emergency suspension, Evans appeared to be causing great public harm by engaging in a repeated pattern of neglect and abandonment of his clients.

Harvey Jay Goldstein, P.O. Box 240037, Milwaukee, Wis., suspended until further order, following a June 3 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1987) According to a petition for emergency suspension, Goldstein appeared to be causing great public harm by converting nearly $70,000 from three probate estates while acting as an administrator and using the funds to pay personal and business expenses and to finance real estate deals. Those incidents resulted in his suspension in Wisconsin.

Gary W Gramer, 181 Southbay Drive, Suite 2, Naples, disbarred retroactive to Jan. 13, following a June 3 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1973) Gramer was found guilty of grand larceny in the third degree in Suffolk County Court, N.Y.

Carolyn Marie Holt, 2202 N. West Shore Blvd., Suite 200, Tampa, suspended for 91 days, effective 30 days from a June 4 court order. Further, upon reinstatement, Holt is placed on probation for one year. (Admitted to practice: 1997) During the course of representing a client in a civil matter, Holt intentionally misled the court and opposing counsel by making false statements to a judge. She later made false statements to The Florida Bar and the grievance committee.

Christine Marie Horn, 3469 W. Boynton Beach Blvd., Suite 15, Boynton Beach, disbarred effective immediately, following a June 17 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1980) Horn was suspended on an emergency basis in November 2009. A Bar audit revealed trust account shortages ranging from more than $3,000 in September 2006 to nearly $314,000 in October 2008.

Thomas Lemuel Hurst, 822 N.E. 96th St., Miami, disbarred effective immediately, following a June 3 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1972) Hurst, who previously had been suspended three times from practicing law, failed to respond to inquiries from The Florida Bar regarding a case alleging he misappropriated a client’s funds; and he failed to appear at a court-mandated final hearing.

Tolly Albert Kennon III, P.O. Box 34006, Charlotte, N.C., suspended for three years, retroactive to April 3, following a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1998) This is a reciprocal discipline case. In September 2009, Kennon was suspended from practicing law in North Carolina for three years. Kennon represented two criminal defendants in two separate cases in North Carolina. In both instances, Kennon advised witnesses for the prosecution as to the way they should handle subpoenas they received. Kennon did not advise either to seek independent counsel.

John Joseph Liu, P.O. Box 277, Safety Harbor, suspended for 91 days, retroactive to July 17, 2009, following a June 17 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1993) Liu failed to respond in writing to inquiries from The Florida Bar regarding the status of his trust account, which had been overdrawn. Nor did he appear for a hearing, despite being served a notice at his official Bar address.

Michael H. Lubin, 16831 N.E. 15th Ave., North Miami Beach, disbarred effective 30 days from a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1981) Lubin misappropriated a portion of the funds he received from a client to hold in trust.

Miguel Angel Montalvo, Apartado Postal 2, Salvatierra, Guanajuato, Mexico, to be publicly reprimanded following a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1994) During the course of representing a client, Montalvo discontinued his law practice in Immokalee and relocated to Mexico. He failed to inform the client that he’d withdrawn from the representation and he failed to respond to inquiries by the Bar regarding the complaint failed by the client.

Dominyka Mindaougas Netchiounas, 2203 N. Lois Ave., Suite 953, Tampa, suspended until further order, effective 30 days from a June 23 court order. (Admitted to practice: 2002) Netchiounas willfully failed to respond to official Bar and grievance committee inquiries regarding a complaint.

Gary Stephen Ostrow, 3000 N.E. 30th Place, Suite 301, Fort Lauderdale, suspended for 30 days, effective Aug. 1, following a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1982) Ostrow was arrested in May 2008 and charged with cocaine possession. In December 2009, Ostrow successfully completed a drug court program and the charge was dismissed.

Matthew Glenn Palentchar, 16 Caton Ave., Colonia, N.J., suspended until further order, effective 30 days from a June 1 court order. (Admitted to practice: 2004) Palentchar failed to comply with a subpoena requesting that he produce trust account records on or before Jan. 15.

Robert Joseph Ratiner, 3225 Aviation Ave., Suite 600, Miami, suspended for 60 days, publicly reprimanded and placed on probation for two years, following a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1990) During a deposition, Ratiner’s behavior was disruptive and intimidating to the witness, opposing counsel and other persons present. While on probation, Ratiner is required to undergo mental health counseling and prepare and mail letters of apology to those who were present during the deposition at issue. Further, Ratiner shall be accompanied by co-counsel approved by the Bar during depositions and other legal proceedings or he shall ensure that such appearances or proceedings are video-recorded.

J. Christopher Rich, 124 E. Rich Ave., Deland, suspended for 91 days, effective 30 days from a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1998) Between April 2007 and November 2009, Rich failed to provide diligent representation and adequate communication to several clients. He was reprimanded by a bankruptcy court judge and placed on one year probation for engaging in a pattern of misconduct that frequently led to the dismissal of his clients’ cases.

Jeffrey Stephen Rosenberg, 20201 E. Country Club Drive, Apt. 2104, Aventura, disbarred effective immediately, following a June 24 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1979) Rosenberg failed to explain the whereabouts of $27,750 placed in escrow with his title company for a client. During the course of a Bar investigation, Rosenberg agreed to disbarment.

David Philip Ryan III, 250 Catalonia Ave., Suite 804, Coral Gables, permanently disbarred effective immediately, following a June 17 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1997) Ryan misappropriated client trust funds for his personal use and he continued to practice law despite his suspension in March 2009. Also, Ryan produced some, but not all subpoenaed records requested by The Florida Bar, including bank statements, canceled checks, cash disbursements and client ledgers.

William Sumner Scott, 3109 Grand Avenue #183, Miami, suspended for three years, following a June 10 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1992) Scott was charged with having conflict of interest in representing clients and with making a false statement of material fact or law to a third party.

Kenneth Paul Sirkin, 2500 Quantum Lakes Drive, Suite 203, Boynton Beach, suspended for three years, effective immediately, following a June 17 court order. (Admitted to practice: 2002) Sirkin failed to respond to official inquiries in 11 separate Bar complaints.

Mark David Swanson, 1521 Alton Road 684, Miami Beach, suspended for 50 days, effective thirty days from a May 20 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1984) Swanson shall pay restitution totaling $9,300 to two clients in separate cases. In both instances, after being retained, Swanson failed to adequately communicate with the clients. He also failed to respond to inquiries from The Florida Bar and the grievance committee.

Harry Mark Vieth, 1500 San Remo Ave., Suite 145, Miami, suspended for one year, effective 30 days from a June 3 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1984) In one instance Vieth misled clients into believing that their case was progressing normally, when in fact, he had taken little action on their behalf. In another case, Vieth was retained to assist a military veteran in increasing his disability benefits and filing a retroactive claim. After obtaining a $1.5 million judgment, Vieth failed to file for payment and the client never received his money. As a result, the client was forced to retain new counsel. Despite numerous requests by the client to secure his medical records for a new lawsuit, Vieth failed to communicate with him

R. Scott Whitehead, 4507 Furling Lane, Suite 209, Destin, suspended until further order, following a June 9 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1998) According to a petition for emergency suspension, Whitehead engaged in a systematic scheme to deprive his clients of their money in the form of fees and costs, while not performing the legal services for which he was retained. Additionally, he was arrested four times for alcohol-related problems since May 2009.

Marvin Deon Wilson Sr., 14321 S.W. 286th St., Homestead, suspended for three years, effective retroactive to Dec. 1, 2008 following a May 27 court order. (Admitted to practice: 1998) A Bar audit found that Wilson used client funds for his own purposes. Wilson was subsequently charged with three felony counts: organized scheme to defraud, grand theft and money laundering. In another instance, Wilson failed to keep a client informed as to the status of her case. He also failed to timely respond to an inquiry about the case from The Florida Bar.  8-2-10

Wow so they disbarred 8 of the 90,000 lawyers in Florida, which is about how many JSO officers got fired in a single sexual misconduct inquiry for sexually abusing female recruits at their own police academy;

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-06-10/story/six_jacksonville_police_recruits_fired_in_sexual_misconduct_case

How many JSO officers are there in total? Not a good ratio for JSO there...

The bottom line in this finger pointing is that for the large part these entities "police" themselves.  Police departments in this country will arrest and prosecute their own and lawyers do the same.

He should have also apologized for using his power to obtain a bogus search warrant that outed the blogger in first place.  But I guess something is better than nothing. 

Hope he had to cut a nice check to Mr. Rich.

Beautiful outcome.  Power corrupts, and promotes subtle abuse against those not deserving it.  There is of course an aura of power in a large church.  Thank goodness there are methods to insure that the various church powers do not overcome our community.