Metro Jacksonville

QuoteBy Bill Rufty
Ledger POLITICAL EDITOR

Published: Monday, April 6, 2009 at 12:01 a.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 at 1:27 a.m.

LAKELAND | C.C. "Doc" Dockery, the godfather of the most recent attempt to create high-speed rail across Florida, has resigned from the Florida High Speed Rail Authority.

The Lakeland businessman's resignation letter to HSRA chairman Lee Chira of Orlando exhibited frustration over Gov. Charlie Crist's failure to publicly endorse Florida's application for part of the $8 billion in federal high-speed rail construction money.

Two states - Florida and California - are far enough along with high-speed rail plans to apply for the money, Chira said.

The Florida Department of Transportation said it will look at applying, but Crist has not responded to pleas from Chira and other members of the authority to reappoint members whose terms have expired and to publicly support application for the billions of dollars in federal construction money.

Although their terms are expired, authority members continue to serve until new appointments are made.

Crist's predecessor, Jeb Bush, fought high-speed rail and tried to get the authority to dissolve, but authority members refused. When he took office in 1999, Bush canceled plans for high speed rail.

In 2000, Dockery spent $3 million of his own money to get a constitutional amendment on the state ballot that required the state to build a high-speed rail system. Voters approved the amendment.

The Florida Legislature created the High Speed Rail Authority and Dockery was appointed as one of nine members. The authority selected a route for the first phase and completed an environmental report.

But Bush got the issue back on the ballot and voters removed the obligation to build.

Until the recent availability of federal high-speed rail money, the authority had not met for three years.

Dockery noted in his resignation letter that even with the DOT looking at the federal rail money, Crist has not endorsed the plan.

"Some at our meeting last Thursday saw a small glimmer of hope in the April 1 letter addressed to you from (DOT) Secretary Kopelousos (supporting the high-speed rail grant). The glimmer of optimism was snuffed out for me when Debbie Hunt, representing the secretary, went out of her way to emphasize that the letter represented the secretary's views and not the governor's views."

Chira said it would be a shame to lose Dockery from the authority.

"I asked him to reconsider," Chira said. "He is the father of high-speed rail in Florida. He is a real visionary and you know what happens to visionaries; they aren't recognized as such until years later."

Crist spokesman Sterling Ivey said the governor's appointments office had not made appointments because the authority had not met for three years. It is now looking into it.

"The governor also does support alternative forms of transportation to relieve the traffic on our roadways," he said. "In terms of federal stimulus packages, we have to look at local requirements for such grants."

http://www.theledger.com/article/20090406/NEWS/904065037

Quote from: thelakelander on April 07, 2009, 09:14:51 AM

QuoteBy Bill Rufty
Ledger POLITICAL EDITOR

Published: Monday, April 6, 2009 at 12:01 a.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 at 1:27 a.m.



"Two states - Florida and California - are far enough along with high-speed rail plans to apply for the money," Chira said.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20090406/NEWS/904065037

Interesting to see that Florida and CA are the states that are far along with their high-speed rail plans,........and therefor presumably have priority for the $8 billion stimulus money......think jobs.

From reading the papers of other communities, Chicago would say different.  However, I wonder why the state continues to be silent on rail, both HSR and Amtrak.  It looks like they are content to let this money flow into other states.

I wonder what Crist is thinking since that money will certainly go to other states more interested and competitive.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 08, 2009, 09:10:16 PM
From reading the papers of other communities, Chicago would say different.  However, I wonder why the state continues to be silent on rail, both HSR and Amtrak.  It looks like they are content to let this money flow into other states.

Looks like everything is being held hostage pending the Central Florida commuter rail project, as in "if that commuter rail project doesn't get through, we won't let anything else get through."

To heck with Florida jobs.

What happened to multi-tasking? Our leadership seems incapable of doing that!

Then we should approve it and move on.  Its already a year overdue.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 09, 2009, 05:43:08 PM
Then we should approve it and move on.  Its already a year overdue.

Do you think it's ok to pass up on $2 billion of stimulus money to spite those who are having legitimate reservations on the set-up of sun rail? Political game playing to the max.

Being responsive to concerns is what could have fast-tracked the central florida commuter rail.

There's only $8 billion for HSR corridors.  My guess is that Florida will not take 1/4 of the money that 11 corridors across the country are competing for.  Nevertheless, no its not okay to pass up on money.  I know this topic is about HSR, but it can also be used for improving existing intercity rail corridors (ie. Amtrak).  Anyway, its clear that Crist must not be interested in the HSR plan between Tampa and Orlando.  If so, public support would have been given by now.

With HIGH SPEED RAIL, Think financial disaster... An economic off ramp for all future transportation dollars and projects about 100 miles short of Jacksonville.

Think disfunctional thinking at DOT, and Dockery's office, a State that has never supported Amtrak Passenger Rail, has allowed a one time 12 train Amtrak System, dwindle down to 2 trains daily. Along with the errosion of service has come a nearly complete abandonment of the once strong ridership base. Not to worry says Tallahassee, we'll build super trains for all those Floridaians who are forced to commute from Orlando Internaitonal Airport to Tampa International Airport.

Got new's for you Crist, the only thing these Billion dollar trains are going to carry is MOUSE CRACK.

I'd suggest that before we jump off the cliff with the Lemmings of Central Florida we try something novel like building on what we already have. Like expanding Amtrak-Florida into a series of linked corridors at 80-90 MPH.

The we repair the damage done by allowing  abandonments of track segments that now effect our passenger train mobility every day. Most notably:

MATTOX - LAKE BUTLER - ALACHUA
GAINESVILLE - ROCHELLE - OCALA
DUNNELLON - INVERNESS - BROOKSVILLE
(Wildwood) COLEMAN JCT - AUBURNDALE (Winter Haven)
WILDWOOD - LEESBURG - TAVARES
JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL (rebuild at least 10) of 32 Tracks
JACKSONVILLE "S" LINE

Just what we need in Florida, a "Statewide" high speed Skyway, that will never be completed to Jacksonville. This will be a very Skyway like experience, like buying a new Accura without wheels.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2009, 08:14:08 PM
There's only $8 billion for HSR corridors.  My guess is that Florida will not take 1/4 of the money that 11 corridors across the country are competing for.  Nevertheless, no its not okay to pass up on money.  I know this topic is about HSR, but it can also be used for improving existing intercity rail corridors (ie. Amtrak).  Anyway, its clear that Crist must not be interested in the HSR plan between Tampa and Orlando.  If so, public support would have been given by now.

Interesting that you won't answer the question whether it is ok to hold up $2 billion ( for HSR or to upgrade intercity) in order to "not distract from sunrail."

Stimulus funds are job projects. Keeping in mind that CA and FL have been hardest hit by the foreclosure crisis and the job losses, both are first in line for jobs programs.

CA will take $4 billion, the least FL can do is take $2 billion!

QuoteNevertheless, no its not okay to pass up on money.

I thought I mentioned that it was not okay to not go after available money?  Btw, I find it hard to believe that Florida will take more of that money than Obama's Chicago and the Midwest.  I guess time will tell.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2009, 08:14:08 PM
There's only $8 billion for HSR corridors.  My guess is that Florida will not take 1/4 of the money that 11 corridors across the country are competing for.  Nevertheless, no its not okay to pass up on money.  I know this topic is about HSR, but it can also be used for improving existing intercity rail corridors (ie. Amtrak).   Anyway, its clear that Crist must not be interested in the HSR plan between Tampa and Orlando.  If so, public support would have been given by now.

Btw, I find it hard to believe that Florida will take more of that money than Obama's Chicago and the Midwest.  I guess time will tell.

The way it stands is that Florida is going to wave the $2 billion goodbye, since the word is to kill everything pending sunrail.

While I was searching for the original monies budgeted for the Orlando lightrail system before it went to Charlotte, I actually came across an interesting quote from an unexpected source that focuses on intercity( since you and I want Amtrak to increase its passenger service in FL):

QuoteAt the agency's request, I submitted a proposal for a public-education campaign that defined success as getting the state to reject the flawed CSX deal and focus instead on intercity passenger-rail needs.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20090410/COLUMNISTS/904105010/1072/YOURTOWN15?Title=Internet-Site-Gives-Lakeland-Plenty

Personally, I think we should tackle passenger rail from all available angles, provided we ensure cost-efficiency in contracting. After all, tax payer monies are scarce.

Where are you coming up with the $2 billion number?  The $8 billion has not been budgeted to any specific system at this point.  Anyway, I agree, if there's money out there, we should attempt to go after it.

Quote from: FayeforCure on April 17, 2009, 10:17:41 PM

QuoteAt the agency's request, I submitted a proposal for a public-education campaign that defined success as getting the state to reject the flawed CSX deal and focus instead on intercity passenger-rail needs.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20090410/COLUMNISTS/904105010/1072/YOURTOWN15?Title=Internet-Site-Gives-Lakeland-Plenty

The good ole, LDDA?  I spent a few years working in Downtown Lakeland before coming to Jax and had plenty of interaction with them.  Trust me, when I say, those guys have no idea of what they are talking about, when it comes to rail.  We don't need to kill one system to focus on another.  That's Mtraininjax talk.  We're pass due.  We needed both years ago.  As you said, there's no reason we can't push for multiple things at once.

Btw, they (the LDDA) ended up wasting about $40k on that website, that could have been used for further improving the downtown core.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2009, 10:27:52 PM
Where are you coming up with the $2 billion number?  The $8 billion has not been budgeted to any specific system at this point.  Anyway, I agree, if there's money out there, we should attempt to go after it.

QuoteThursday, April 16, 2009, 6:09pm EDT
Florida high-speed rail gets new lifeOrlando Business Journal - by Bill Orben Staff Writer

Map of proposed rail corridors
A move to allocate $8 billion for high-speed rail systems in the U.S. could breathe new life into a 90-mile $2 billion project that would link Orlando and Tampa.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2009/04/13/daily41.html?t=printable

QuoteCould Stimulus Plan Bring High-Speed Rail To Tampa?
ADVERTISEMENT



By RICH SHOPES | The Tampa Tribune

Published: February 19, 2009

TAMPA - High-speed rail looked dead four years ago, but backers of the proposal say it's being resuscitated now thanks to the recently approved federal stimulus package.

"This is unbelievable," said Lee Chira, chairman of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority.

The group hadn't met since voters in November 2004 opposed granting state taxes to the project â€" the first leg of which would have connected Orlando and Tampa for $2 billion.

Now the authority is hopeful it could get some of the $8 billion recently set aside for high-speed rail projects nationwide.

"We're 90 percent sure we'll get it because the president said he is looking for communities and authorities that have shovel-ready projects," Chira said. "We're farther along than anybody."

The authority sent a letter to the Federal Transit Administration on Jan. 27 expressing interest in the funds and has scheduled a meeting Feb. 26 in Orlando to discuss what to do next.

By mid-September, the authority must have its formal application submitted to the FTA.

The project's first leg from Orlando International Airport to Tampa was expected to cost $2 billion and include stops at downtown Orlando, Disney World and Lakeland.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/feb/19/could-stimulus-plan-bring-high-speed-rail-tampa/news-breaking/

So who gets the short end of the stick?  There will be 10 corridors competing for $8 billion.  So far we know California wants $4 billion, Florida wants $2 billion and the Midwest wants $3.4 billion.  We're already at $9.4 billion with seven more corridors out there.  At this point, we do know the others are lobbying hard, but Crist remains silent.

(http://www.freep.com/uploads/images/2009/04/0417_rail.jpg)

the biggest problem here in FL is that SunRail is being pitted against HSR....Sen. Paula Dockery is making an issue out of the CSX deal because her husband, C.C. Dockery wants HSR....then he throws a fit and resigns from the committee because the Governor won't come out in favor of HSR.

Unfortunately, the Feds may see our "lack of support" for coimmuter rail as a sign about our potential support for HSR...or vice versa.   

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 17, 2009, 11:05:52 PM
the biggest problem here in FL is that SunRail is being pitted against HSR....Sen. Paula Dockery is making an issue out of the CSX deal because her husband, C.C. Dockery wants HSR....then he throws a fit and resigns from the committee because the Governor won't come out in favor of HSR.

Unfortunately, the Feds may see our "lack of support" for coimmuter rail as a sign about our potential support for HSR...or vice versa.   

Yes, the biggest problem here in FL is that Sunrail is being pitted against HSR.

Here are the possibilities:

1. We can do both
2. We can do either one
3. We can do just Sunrail

Clearly the powers that be in Florida have decided to only consider 3.

That is limiting our options, and certainly not in the public interest. In the interest of jobs in Florida, we must pursue all options!

The beauty of the $2 stimulus monies is that it doesn't require state matching funds,............besides,..........who would favor getting $300 million from the federal government over the possibility of getting $2 billion????????

For those of us who care about Florida jobs it certainly is enraging to let the possibility of getting $2 billion slip through our hands, for no other reason than political grandstanding on sunrail.

Already we've missed out on $2.2 billion federal funds for education ( states that have been gutting their state education funding since 2006, like Florida, did not qualify to use federal education stimulus funds,..... as these funds were not meant to replace state funding, rather they were supposed to supplement state funding, in order to be a true stimulus).

It looks like Crist is on board...

QuoteStimulus money may resurrect state's high-speed rail line

By Janet Zink, Times Staff Writer
In Print: Saturday, April 18, 2009

TAMPA â€" Florida high-speed rail supporters are dusting off plans for trains connecting Tampa to Orlando and Miami with hopes that federal stimulus money will resurrect the project.

The corridor is one of 10 nationwide eligible to tap into $8 billion earmarked for high-speed rail through President Barack Obama's economic stimulus package. Obama's 2010 budget also commits $1 billion annually for the next five years to high-speed rail.

"This is an exciting thing," Gov. Charlie Crist said Friday after meeting with Florida Department of Transportation Secretary Stephanie Kopelousos. "We're obviously going to apply for the money."

Crist said he won't know until mid June, when federal officials release funding details, what type of financial commitment will be required from the state to get the federal money.

But the cash could go a long way toward relieving highway congestion in the state, he said.

"We're a state of almost 20 million people and an awful lot of vehicles," he said.

The first round of federal stimulus funding will be for projects that already have preliminary engineering and environmental work completed.

"Florida is closer to being shovel ready than any other corridor in the nation," said C.C. "Doc" Dockery, a Lakeland businessman and former member of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority.

The first phase would be a $2.5 billion connection between Tampa and Orlando in the Interstate 4 median. The second phase would reach Miami parallel to Interstate 95.

The authority was created after Florida voters approved a constitutional amendment in 2000 mandating high-speed rail lines to link the state's major metropolitan areas.

But foes of rail, with then-Gov. Jeb Bush's support, got a repeal measure on the 2004 ballot and voters passed it.

Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio and Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer said one of Bush's complaints about high-speed rail â€" that passengers would have no way to get around once they got off the train â€" has less weight now that plans for commuter rail are being developed in both areas.

"What we're doing now would certainly facilitate the success of a high-speed rail corridor from Tampa to Orlando and Orlando to Miami," Dyer said.

Crist said he has no qualms about supporting high speed rail even after voters nixed the constitutional amendment in 2004.

"The rationale there was that it was going to put a hole in the state budget. That's not an illegitimate concern," he said. "Thank goodness for the stimulus money."

Staff writer Bill Varian contributed to this report. Janet Zink can be reached at jzink@sptimes.com or (813) 226-3401.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/article993169.ece

Thank you, Transportation Secretary Stephanie Kopelousos!!!

She had been supportive when the stimulus monies were first announced in February!

Quote"The rationale there was that it (HSR) was going to put a hole in the state budget. That's not an illegitimate concern," he (Crist) said. "Thank goodness for the stimulus money."

I would be remiss, not to mention that every one of the 15 GOP Congressmen representing Florida voted AGAINST the stimulus monies coming to Florida.

Well, it should be interesting to see how this race for $13 billion, over the next five years, plays out.  You can't help but notice the quick change in the view of rail, all across the country, in a short period of time.  It shows the impact of leadership at the top.  Hopefully, it will rub off on local leadership here.

Keep in mind that Crist may not run for re-election, but instead run for Senate.  Something to keep in mind when considering who to support for an open Governor's seat.

Just think how much further FL would be down the path if Jeb hadn't pushed for the High Speed amendment reversal. 

Is our electorate so myopic that they fail to see other communities preparing to fight for as much funding as possible?  That failure to capitalize on these opportunities allows others to prosper? 

What are the real reasons Florida fails to view rail as viable and a value-added public service?

Quote from: JaxNole on April 18, 2009, 01:19:31 PM
Is our electorate so myopic that they fail to see other communities preparing to fight for as much funding as possible?  That failure to capitalize on these opportunities allows others to prosper? 

What are the real reasons Florida fails to view rail as viable and a value-added public service?

The answer is simple: Our electorate has been rail-roaded by the "cut my taxes, keep government small" Republicans who don't believe in public investments, yet they love to get their own pay-check from the government.

And when the distributed stimulus amounts (ex: $400 per individual, annualized) show an increase in paycheck amounts, are those people going to send that extra back to all the derogatory names for President Obama?

[Comment to make it relevant to thread]
Interesting how Jacksonville's inclusion on the route map identifies it as a southeast location, rather than being part of Florida.

Quote from: JaxNole on April 18, 2009, 01:45:01 PM
And when the distributed stimulus amounts (ex: $400 per individual, annualized) show an increase in paycheck amounts, are those people going to send that extra back to all the derogatory names for President Obama?

[Comment to make it relevant to thread]
Interesting how Jacksonville's inclusion on the route map identifies it as a southeast location, rather than being part of Florida.

hey we watched cnn last week !

Here is a route map of the proposed $2.5 billion Tampa-Orlando alignment.

(http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/images/2c_routes.gif)
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/2c_phases.html

@Civil
Did you?  That's wonderful.  I gain more information from different sources.

I actually read print versions of The NYT (courtesy of a gift subscription), WSJ (courtesy of work) and documents produced online by the Obama administration and the IRS.

Then I form my own conclusions.

Do you do the same with CNN?

http://www.youtube.com/v/UXquwh9t4EY&color1
Amtrak could run the "AMTRAK FLORIDA" service if we obtain money to make it happen, but Amtrak runs trains where the private railroads launched land cruises. Notice a difference in the last RIO GRANDE ZEPHYR (yeah, the movie guy couldn't spell it) in 1983 and the first Amtrak Zephyr the following day, BOTH in Denver.

Quote from: FayeforCure on April 18, 2009, 11:52:16 AM
Thank you, Transportation Secretary Stephanie Kopelousos!!!

She had been supportive when the stimulus monies were first announced in February!

Quote"The rationale there was that it (HSR) was going to put a hole in the state budget. That's not an illegitimate concern," he (Crist) said. "Thank goodness for the stimulus money."

I would be remiss, not to mention that every one of the 15 GOP Congressmen representing Florida voted AGAINST the stimulus monies coming to Florida.

It's not that clear cut Faye, I wish it were. That the Republicans voted as a block is no surprise, the HSR deal that has been cooked up by "WHO-EVER", is a complete disaster. It assumes way too much, and is apparently planned and drawn by someone who doesn't know the difference between a locomotive and track. The FOX plan is ridiculous:

Goes from Airport to Airport, not from City to City.
Bypasses City Center track and stations
Based on a state that has spent 100 years + promoting roads over rail.
Assumes that we can skip the Amtrak - higher density - higher speeds steps and go right into full trains on untried routes.
Leaves Jacksonville and the panhandle out of the system in our life times.
Doesn't recognize that frequent and multiple rail stops and high speeds do not go together.
Follows Interstate Highways which misses the core of every town on the routes.
Involves all new track and right-of-way construction when we already have a under utilized track system.
Ignores the fact that current Amtrak Equipment could easily go 120 MPH with track adjustments and overpasses.

... well you get the point, it just completely misses the mark and will cost us 10X what we SHOULD spend, and if we go this route, we STILL Won't have decent intercity service.  

Quote from: JaxNole on April 18, 2009, 01:19:31 PM
Is our electorate so myopic that they fail to see other communities preparing to fight for as much funding as possible?  That failure to capitalize on these opportunities allows others to prosper? 

What are the real reasons Florida fails to view rail as viable and a value-added public service?

The state has been riding high since the real estate boom of the 1920's, developers plus roads equal more land opened and begets more development and roads. Cut deals, clear cut the land, and build the cookie cutter cracker boxes. Get more funding and extend MORE roads, and build even MORE cracker boxes. Stimulus? grab it for amenity's, shrubs, community water parks, ponds and pools, retail strips and condos. Don't design the new burbs for buses or transit because we don't want "those people" in our gated communities. Riffraff brings down the price. Use 100% of the stimulus for attractors, so we can quickly build out the neighborhoods and max out the profit. Getting road funding is essential to our future and helps build obscene profits. Mass Transit doesn't make a profit so we shouldn't have to pay for it... Freeways really are "FREE!"

TRUST ME, their logic starts making more sense after 4/5THS of a bottle of Southern Comfort.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ock...I know you don't like HSR much, but please don't use the same arguments that anti-rail folks do agaisnt AMTRAK and commuter rail.

The fact is that HSR would connect to local transit in both Orlando and Tampa....the planned Orlando light rail system goes to the airport....and the planned Tampa system would be re-routed/extended to meet HSR in downtown.

And of course, assuming those light rail lines don't happen, there would still b connecting bus service, rental car facilities, and kiss & ride facilities.

Quote

Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 19, 2009, 12:04:55 AM
That the Republicans voted as a block is no surprise, the HSR deal that has been cooked up by "WHO-EVER", is a complete disaster. It assumes way too much, and is apparently planned and drawn by someone who doesn't know the difference between a locomotive and track. The FOX plan is ridiculous:

Goes from Airport to Airport, not from City to City.
Bypasses City Center track and stations
Based on a state that has spent 100 years + promoting roads over rail.
Assumes that we can skip the Amtrak - higher density - higher speeds steps and go right into full trains on untried routes.
Leaves Jacksonville and the panhandle out of the system in our life times.
Doesn't recognize that frequent and multiple rail stops and high speeds do not go together.
Follows Interstate Highways which misses the core of every town on the routes.
Involves all new track and right-of-way construction when we already have a under utilized track system.
Ignores the fact that current Amtrak Equipment could easily go 120 MPH with track adjustments and overpasses.

... well you get the point, it just completely misses the mark and will cost us 10X what we SHOULD spend, and if we go this route, we STILL Won't have decent intercity service.

Sorry man, which argument do you see as the same as the anti-Amtrak groups? I realize that I have something of a respected opinion here, I could almost hear the blind passenger train advocates jumping off the Matthews Bridge last night after my post.

Let me explain...

I LOVE HIGH SPEED RAIL, the passion is about the same as my love for shortlines, narrow gauge, streetcars, interurban's, LRT, Trolley Bus, Cable Cars, Trams, Buses, Intercity Motor Coaches, Amtrak, Passenger Trains, etc...

In a perfect world, I'd love to see us step up and reclaim our rightful position as the rail passenger hub of the Southeast. Just in train service, crew base, baggage, fuel, food, flowers, linen, etc. For example ONE DINING CAR on ONE JAX-NEW ORLEANS TRAIN will carry 65,000 cups of coffee. So the economic boom would be knocking down the door once our business community saw the impact.

The beef with FOX - Central Florida High Speed Rail is the planning (or lack of planning). It seems to have been done by visionary futurist without a clue about the inner workings, strengths and weaknesses of rail. The planners on this project seems to have accentuated the negatives and negated the positives.

They have approached this more as a shiny new toy then logical, well planned, mass transportation system. Rail that ignores city centers. Rail that focuses on highway right-of-ways. Rail that has no room for Amtrak through service. The list of oversights is endless. Every indicator is that they just didn't even lay out a topo map, demographics or the text book, "The Railroad, What it Is and What it Does, 101." (I've got a copy if you'd like to check it out sometime).

Perhaps Ennis and I could do a revised plan for FOX, one we both would support. A map and a few station layouts and put Jacksonville at the throttle rather then in the caboose. Right now HSR Florida is a vacuum and we could steal the show, crazy thing is the show belongs to us anyway.  

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/CSX_A_and_S_lines.png/180px-CSX_A_and_S_lines.png)
Another new map shows the eastern lines of the SouthEast High Speed Rail, I expect the more Eastern line along US-17 to become HSR Passenger. The "S" will be rebuilt, and commuter shuttles will be sharing some of the stops.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 19, 2009, 09:22:46 AM
Ock...I know you don't like HSR much, but please don't use the same arguments that anti-rail folks do agaisnt AMTRAK and commuter rail.

The fact is that HSR would connect to local transit in both Orlando and Tampa....the planned Orlando light rail system goes to the airport....and the planned Tampa system would be re-routed/extended to meet HSR in downtown.

And of course, assuming those light rail lines don't happen, there would still b connecting bus service, rental car facilities, and kiss & ride facilities.

Thank you tufsu1. Maybe Ock's siding with his buddy Mica, who doesn't like HSR for Florida, but is a huge supporter for HSR everywhere else in the country. Even light rail for Orlando was derailed by Mica when others were trying to revive it.

When the commuter rail project kicked off in 2002, a re-study of light rail was already in the works. Then central florida was sold a "demonstration" project at about $50 million by Congressman Mica. The light rail study at the time estimated the cost to be $1 billion. And central florida said, "oh my god that is too much money we should go with the cheaper one".
Commuter rail is now $1.2 billion and climbing. Also the light rail line down the I-4 corridor would have carried 30,000 people a day on a 20-mile line, 10 times what is planned for on opening day of commuter rail,......seems the "commuter" train is not so much for commuters or tourists, but for development.....

QuoteIt's alive! Light rail heads for I-Drive.(Public transportation in Orlando)(Brief Article)

Source: Orlando Business Journal

Publication Date: 18-MAY-01


New study outlines a path even previous opponents like.

ORLANDO -- It's back.

And it's heading for International Drive.

A light-rail system linked to the tourism corridor now is formally under consideration, less than two years after a similar proposal died a political death at the hands of Orange County commissioners.

An even bigger surprise: Despite light rail's past record, I-Drive business owners appear willing to reach consensus on a route.

"The recommendation to sit down with business leaders before the route is laid out is a very favorable direction," says Alan Villaverde, president of the Efficient Transportation Committee on International Drive and a critic of the first light-rail proposal.

Discussion of a southern leg to the rail system is unexpected. The most recent...

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/comsite5/bin/aml_landing_tt.pl?purchase_type=ITM&item_id=0286-10626220&action=print&page=aml_article_print

Instead, teaming up with Colorado railcar that went belly-up in Nov 2008, Mica pushed for Florida's use of this questionable company from 2002 through 2006.

QuoteMica says rail link to Jacksonville possible
St. Augustine Record - Jan 29, 2006
John Mica, R-Winter Park, said a demonstration of the Ultra Dome luxury railcar ... Developed by Tom Rader, founder of Colorado Railcar, the Ultra Dome is ... Related web pages



Commuter train boosters praise test run
$2.95 - Daytona Beach News-Journal - NewsBank - Oct 26, 2002
By the time she arrived for a look at a commuter rail car that could link DeLand ... "I think John Mica had us drive through I-4 traffic by design," France ... Orlando, Fla.-Area Leaders Test Ride New Commuter... - Orlando Sentinel - AccessMyLibrary.com (Free with registration)
All 3 related - Related web pages



Virtual Train for Central Florida Might Put Commuter Rail on Track.
Free with registration - Orlando Sentinel - AccessMyLibrary.com - Aug 11, 2003
Planners can make the virtual Colorado Railcar train speed up, slow down, stop, ... John Mica, R-Winter Park -- are trying to find money and prepare for ... All 2 related - Related web pages



Mica pushes DeLand-Orlando rail link
$2.95 - Daytona Beach News-Journal - NewsBank - Feb 1, 2002
John Mica is pitching a plan he hopes will break the bureaucratic gridlock. ... A prototype locomotive is being built by Colorado Railcar Manufacturing. ... All 3 related - Related web pages

Is it safe to assume you won't be inviting John Mica over for dinner?

lakelander, you don't have a response to Mica promoting Colorado Railcar to the exclusion of other rail options? Colorado Railcar was a questionable company from the start.

No.  However I am interested in what they will use instead of the Colorado Railcar?  Do you know?

Quote from: FayeforCure on April 19, 2009, 10:16:29 PM
lakelander, you don't have a response to Mica promoting Colorado Railcar to the exclusion of other rail options? Colorado Railcar was a questionable company from the start.

You'd do well to check your facts here Faye, Mica, Brown, and everyone else was behind CRC because it was THE ONLY American builder of a rail compliant, self propelled, diesel multiple unit. The only other choices are the non-compliant Sprinter, or the European made Flexliner (with modifications for US rail). The hope of every state rail agency in our country was on CRC, but the company was never financed well enough to be able to survive the brutal US passenger rail market. I took one of the CRC's along Tri-Rail at 80 MPH and was NOT impressed, I posted on the old Met Jax site that I saw big trouble ahead for the company because the car was more "airline plastic" then "railroad stainless steel".  The thing sounded like it was flying apart. But THEY were the only game in town. Ask anyone here what I said more then two years ago. "We better plan on going with a remanufactured Budd RDC car..." 

Faye, my distaste for Central Florida HSR has nothing to do with my friendship with John Mica. Nor does it have anything to do with the fact that I'm the one that convinced him Commuter Rail/Regional Rail was the way to go in Central Florida before there ever was a plan. I just don't support HSR with stupid planning, that ignores the strengths of railroads. Even if the planning was flawless, I'd still have doubts about success with or without Mica. REASON? Because John and everyone else for the last nearly 40 years has tried to zap the funding for Amtrak at every curve in the track. A lot of people reading this don't realize that Florida has gone backward with Amtrak since day one, while the rest of the nation has moved forward. Since the Amtrak rescue of 1971, we have lost:

The Floridian....MIA/TPA - Jax - B'HAM - N'VILLE - CHICAGO
The Champion...premier train, TPA - JAX - CHARLESTON - DC - NYC
The Miamian... Winter Season, MIA - JAX - CHARLESTON - DC - NYC
The Florida Special...Winter Season Premier "Champagne Train" - MIA - JAX - CHARLESTON - DC - NYC
The Sunset Limited... MIA/TPA - JAX - NEW ORLEANS - HOUSTON - PHOENIX - LOS ANGELES
The Palmetto I .... daylight coach train, JAX - CHARLESTON - DC - NYC
The Palmetto II... Extended version of above,  TPA - JAX - CHARLESTON - DC - NYC
The Silver Palm... TPA - WNTR HAVEN - SEBRING - WEST PALM - MIAMI
(There were actually several versions of the Silver Palm too but the one above is the SOLE example of a Florida DOT sponsored Amtrak Train).

By driving backwards through the crowds of cities and states making use of Amtrak services, we have less and less population, tourism or business that is rail savvy. People have left Florida's rails in droves because this state will not support rail. Plain and simple. Now they think spending a cool couple Billion on a "(HALF of a ) statewide" network, will cause these same missing passengers to materialize out of the ozone. They are not "TRAINED" to ride.

There is a way to do this, but it's to develop corridors of service with Amtrak. Fund the corridors so that each year XX dollars of improvements in track, signals, crossing elimination, speed, stations, etc... takes place. Once ridership and speed is on the cusp of HSR, THEN make the shift to full electric, dedicated lines alongside current tried and true rail routes.  


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 19, 2009, 11:53:23 PM

By driving backwards through the crowds of cities and states making use of Amtrak services, we have less and less population, tourism or business that is rail savvy. People have left Florida's rails in droves because this state will not support rail. Plain and simple. Now they think spending a cool couple Billion on a "(HALF of a ) statewide" network, will cause these same missing passengers to materialize out of the ozone. They are not "TRAINED" to ride.

There is a way to do this, but it's to develop corridors of service with Amtrak. Fund the corridors so that each year XX dollars of improvements in track, signals, crossing elimination, speed, stations, etc... takes place. Once ridership and speed is on the cusp of HSR, THEN make the shift to full electric, dedicated lines alongside current tried and true rail routes. [/color] [/b]

Ock, I will address only this paragraph, as I AM completely aware of the history of CRC (ie, I HAD done my research, and DID indeed see you being less than impressed on the demo ride).

There are many reasons to want HSR NOW in Florida:
1. Jobs for Florida
2. Federal monies available without the usual matching state fund requirement
3. Tourism traffic rather than commuter traffic is a major draw for HSR
4.. Rail is not just planned to capture existing ridership ie Sunrail will have very little ridership when coming on-line, rather sometimes investments are made in anticipation of the capacity to grow ridership and/or to encourage compact economic development along the rail-line.

Because of 3, there is a rationale for HSR lines to go from airport to airport.

Sharing commuter rail with freight lines is always difficult because of safety requirements. In fact the CRC were specifically designed to withstand some of the impact of collisions.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 19, 2009, 11:53:23 PMFaye, my distaste for Central Florida HSR has nothing to do with my friendship with John Mica. Nor does it have anything to do with the fact that I'm the one that convinced him Commuter Rail/Regional Rail was the way to go in Central Florida before there ever was a plan.

Why?
I have seen communities putting in light rail before they put in commuter rail.

I know your preference is for using existing rail over putting in new rail. But there is no substitute for an effective light rail system,.........they are going to have to use new track regardless. Plus the commuter rail was sold as significantly cheaper than light rail.

QuotePOTENTIAL PROJECT RIVAL ENDORSES VOLUSIA COMMUTER RAIL SYSTEM
$2.95 - Daytona Beach News-Journal - NewsBank - Jun 13, 2000
Mica has urged the area to support a 53-mile commuter rail service along CSX tracks. The project would cost about $50 million, compared with the $600 light rail cost... 

PS, I can understand the importance of removing freight traffic out of Winter Park. I used to attend concerts in the park, and it is a very pretty community.

Even if more track is necessary for commuter/LRT to run with freight it is still much less expensive to use the existing ROW where available versus completely new lines.

(http://www.soundtransit.org/Images/vehicles/Sounder_Vehicle_02.jpg)
Sounder Commuter Rail Train Specifications
Every weekday, Sounder commuter trains connect Seattle to Everett in the north and Seattle to Tacoma in the south. Sounder passengers enjoy a number of new stations up and down the line. In addition, in partnership with the Burlington Northern Santa Fe (BNSF) Railway, Sound Transit is investing about a billion dollars to improve signals, tracks, stations and grade crossings throughout the Sounder corridor. Now that the track and signal improvements are complete, the overall capacity in the corridor will also increase for freight and Amtrak passenger service.

Quote from: FayeforCure on April 20, 2009, 10:20:17 AM

Ock, I will address only this paragraph, as I AM completely aware of the history of CRC (ie, I HAD done my research, and DID indeed see you being less than impressed on the demo ride).

QuoteThere are many reasons to want HSR NOW in Florida:
1. Jobs for Florida
2. Federal monies available without the usual matching state fund requirement
3. Tourism traffic rather than commuter traffic is a major draw for HSR
4.. Rail is not just planned to capture existing ridership ie Sunrail will have very little ridership when coming on-line, rather sometimes investments are made in anticipation of the capacity to grow ridership and/or to encourage compact economic development along the rail-line.

Because of 3, there is a rationale for HSR lines to go from airport to airport.

Point by point:
1. I agree completely.
2. I agree completely.
3. Tourism traffic is a major draw, but will not, in and of itself, support our HSR.
4. Agree with the concept, but Sunrail will serve population density along the old rail lines, HSR will follow and promote sprawl as it is currently planned, something I will not support. [/quote]

QuoteSharing commuter rail with freight lines is always difficult because of safety requirements. In fact the CRC were specifically designed to withstand some of the impact of collisions.

Virtually all Commuter Rail in the nation, even world wide shares track with freight or other passenger operations. The only real difficulty is the initial start up years, when freight schedules must be adjusted, signals changed, speeds altered etc... Once the new wears off, it's really no different then adding a new "Auto Plant" or "Coal Mine" along a freight railroad, either case calls for a sudden huge increase in traffic. The difference being that the Auto Plant, or Coal Mine, will require the freight carrier to handle the traffic by themselves, while Commuter Rail is a public/private ballet.

QuoteFaye:

Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 19, 2009, 11:53:23 PMFaye, my distaste for Central Florida HSR has nothing to do with my friendship with John Mica. Nor does it have anything to do with the fact that I'm the one that convinced him Commuter Rail/Regional Rail was the way to go in Central Florida before there ever was a plan.

Why?

I have seen communities putting in light rail before they put in commuter rail.

I know your preference is for using existing rail over putting in new rail. But there is no substitute for an effective light rail system,.........they are going to have to use new track regardless. Plus the commuter rail was sold as significantly cheaper than light rail.

Why? Because in the case of The Ormond Beach-Daytona Beach-New Smyrna Beach area, and in the case of Deland-Orange City-Sanford-Lake Mary-Longwood-Altamonte Springs-Maitland-Winter Park-Orlando-Taft-Kissimmee-Poncianna, we have long lineal metro areas built up along a single trunk line railroad. Either one is turn key for Commuter Rail. For example Orlando by virtue of the CSX mainline and the metros directional development can accomplish in 60 miles of Commuter Rail what it will take Jacksonville 120+ miles of Commuter Rail AND another 30 or so of Light Rail to accomplish.

The choice to go with Commuter Rail or Light Rail comes down to regional planning preferences and available funding. Both systems can be considered types of Commuter Rail, but the cost can vary greatly on a project by project basis. For example Jacksonville urbanized core area is more suited to heritage Streetcar and Skyway then to Light Rail, Freeways, Subways or Elevated Heavy Rail. Where ever we move in Jacksonville we need to build not just new track, but a new system. In Orlando, addition of an extra track in limited places (parts are already double tracked) on an existing core to core mainline makes Commuter Rail an easy build. Light Rail can't mix on a mainline with Freight Rail, during the same hours, so to build Light Rail in Orlando, they would have to blow entire new right-of-ways down Colonial, Orange, Mills, Orlando, OBT, where ever.  

QuotePOTENTIAL PROJECT RIVAL ENDORSES VOLUSIA COMMUTER RAIL SYSTEM
$2.95 - Daytona Beach News-Journal - NewsBank - Jun 13, 2000
Mica has urged the area to support a 53-mile commuter rail service along CSX tracks. The project would cost about $50 million, compared with the $600 light rail cost... 


PS, I can understand the importance of removing freight traffic out of Winter Park. I used to attend concerts in the park, and it is a very pretty community.

Commuter Rail might cut this traffic back to more nocturnal hours, and shift some of it to the west on the "S" line. There is simply no way for Amtrak - CSX or Central Florida Commuter Rail to avoid Winter park. The great sounding plan to build a railroad by pass around Orlando, back in the 1980's was pie-in-the-sky dreaming. Imagine you have a billion dollar corporation that runs 20 freight trains daily through St. Louis, suddenly you learn of a plan that Kirkwood doesn't like hearing or seeing the trains anymore, so if you please, they want to build a new line around the city for you via Alton! Ain't gonna happen.

We have got to meet on the HSR project, jump in with both Jacksonville feet and take charge. We have more railroad know how in any 2 city blocks then Central and South Florida have combined. Make it logical, add North Florida and connect the Southeastern HSR with Florida HSR at the Jacksonville Terminal. We'll drag Tallahassee kicking and screaming to the train.

This is really funny because while I know trains, this is the third time I've composed this answer, the other two are out in cyber space! Duh?

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteSunRail passes committee with 4 to 3 vote

TALLAHASSEE -- The controversial plan to build a 61-mile commuter rail line through the heart of Central Florida just scored a major win.

In a 4-3 vote Monday, the state Senate's Transportation Committee gave the SunRail plan a green light.

However, at the same time, it's encountered a new hurdle.

SunRail is finally back on track. But its final destination is still a long way off.

Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, is out to kill the plan.

full article: http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2009/4/20/462686.html?title=SunRail+passes+committee+with+4+to+3+vote

Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 20, 2009, 11:47:40 PM

The choice to go with Commuter Rail or Light Rail comes down to regional planning preferences and available funding. Both systems can be considered types of Commuter Rail, but the cost can vary greatly on a project by project basis.

Thanks for your detailed response. Clearly Mica was pushing for commuter rail and Colorado Railcar claiming it would be less expensive than light rail and then the costs kept ballooning until they were higher than the projected light rail costs.

QuoteOrange County, Fla., Rail Transit Issue Remains Divisive.
Free with registration - Orlando Sentinel - AccessMyLibrary.com - Oct 14, 2002
But starting commuter rail won't be easy. CSX has been noncommittal about leasing its ... Today, light-rail backers such as Orlando Mayor Glenda Hood, ...

Orange County, Fla., Official Unveils Blueprint with Light Rail,...
Free with registration - Orlando Sentinel - AccessMyLibrary.com - Sep 13, 2002
The other plan suggests running commuter rail -- bigger, heavier trains that make fewer stops -- between Volusia County and downtown Orlando. ...

Proposed Central Florida Commuter Rail System Costs Rise.


Publication: The Orlando Sentinel (Orlando, Florida) (via Knight-Ridder/Tribune Business News)

Publication Date: 02-OCT-01  
COPYRIGHT 2001 The Orlando Sentinel

Byline: Jim Stratton

Oct. 2--The commuter-rail project championed by U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, may turn out to be far more expensive than anyone imagined -- perhaps three times the original estimate.

Instead of costing $2 million a mile, as supporters had suggested, a new study says the system linking DeLand, Orlando and Kissimmee will cost between $5.5 million and $6 million a mile to get up and running.

The total cost of the project, consultants say, will be at least $225 million, and that would buy only a bare-bones system with a few trains running at 45-minute intervals. More trains or more frequent service would push the price to...


COPYRIGHT 2002 The Orlando Sentinel
Byline: Jim Stratton

Aug. 5--The company that could make or break Central Florida's plans for commuter rail wants the region to buy a $500 million insurance policy to protect it from lawsuits -- a demand that could account for half the yearly cost of running the system.... say such a policy could cost anywhere from $2 million to $5 million annually, ... Officials with the Virginia Rail Express commuter system said the CSX ...

Insurance pushes up cost of trains

Article 1 of 1 found
  Derek Catron
Staff Writer
March 26, 2002; Page 01C
Article ID: 0203260197

How much is too much?

That's a question supporters of commuter rail are asking in the face of rising cost estimates for the project to take commuters out of Interstate 4 gridlock and put them into trains.

A report issued Monday at a meeting of the Volusia County Metropolitan Planning Organization's Rails Committee shows operating a commuter rail line between Orlando and Southwest Volusia could cost much more than originally thought.

Orange County, Fla., Taxpayer-Funded Rail Transit Plan Undetermined.
Free with registration - Orlando Sentinel - AccessMyLibrary.com - Sep 19, 2003
It might cost $600 million to $700 million. The third major proposal, a pet project of US Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, features a commuter-rail train ...

Here is a very good overview of what happened:

QuoteDOT Should Review Other Options To Build Commuter Rail In Orlando
Published: August 3, 2008

The Tampa Tribune

Someone in state government needs to step up and address the standoff over the proposed commuter-rail project in Orlando.

The obvious choice would be Stephanie Kopelousis, secretary of the Department of Transportation.

But so far, Kopelousis has been little more than a cheerleader for the off-strategy project she inherited. It's time she demonstrated leadership on behalf of all Floridians, not just Orlando's politically powerful lawmakers.

In May the Florida Legislature rejected the deal her agency struck with CSX Railroad to buy 61 miles of track in Central Florida. But since the purchase agreement doesn't expire until next year, supporters are preparing for a second legislative battle next spring.

DOT cannot afford to sit on its hands and hope for a different outcome, especially since the opposition shows no sign of budging. This state has a $30-billion deficit in public transportation projects, and DOT needs to get moving.

To find common ground, Kopelousis, with strong public support from Gov. Charlie Crist, should develop a process like that designed for the Tampa Bay Rays in the governor's hometown. After failing to win public support for a waterfront ballpark in downtown St. Petersburg, the team agreed to let a group of committed citizens take a second, broader look. So, too, might fresh eyes find a better way to meet Orlando's need for commuter rail.

Not The Best Route

Consider that the 61-mile route hardly touches the heart of Central Florida's congestion. The line runs from Deland to Poinciana, nowhere near the airport, the University of Central Florida or Walt Disney World.

Yes, it's a start. But at a cost of $1.2 billion and growing, the public isn't convinced it's the best place to start. A poll of Orlando citizens found 55 percent disapproved of the deal once its details were known. Even the mayor of Winter Park, whose community is bisected by the track, stands opposed. "I do not think the Central Florida commuter-rail project is in the best interest of our citizens financially," says Mayor David Strong.

Seemingly logical alternatives exist. Just five years ago, Orlando talked about running a high-speed rail line alongside a toll road between Disney and the airport. The Interstate-4 median remains open and designated for rail.

The CSX deal didn't come about because it was the best option. It came about because CSX approached the state with an offer to sell a portion of its A-line, one of the two major rail lines between Jacksonville and Central Florida. The railroad wants to shift freight trains out of Orlando and send them through downtown Lakeland and Plant City to a proposed 318-acre hub in Winter Haven.

CSX's strategy is to improve its freight-rail lines and get taxpayers to foot the bill. Other states have rejected such subsidies, but former Gov. Jeb Bush, without any public debate, committed the Sunshine State to major investments in freight lines despite the significant backlog of public transportation needs.

Initially Bush committed $491 million to the CSX deal - $150 million for the tracks and $341 million for the hub and track improvements through the state's back woods. The estimate has since jumped to $641 million because of needed rail overpasses.

The dollars add up like Monopoly money. Now consider that Tampa Bay's fledgling commuter-rail effort this year had to plead to preserve $2 million in state start-up funds.

Restore Statewide Vision

If railroaded through, the CSX purchase would gum up a state strategy drafted in 2000 to provide faster and more reliable passenger-rail service between Florida's urban centers. Bush changed the inter-city strategy after striking the deal with the freight railroad, a for-profit company.

The earlier vision better served citizens. It called for a partnership with Amtrak, which by federal law is allowed to use freight lines with appropriate modifications and accommodations. State Sen. Paula Dockery and Rep. Dennis Ross, both of Lakeland, want Florida to return to this fiscally conservative strategy, rather than buy and operate a new railroad.

It should be noted that early in the negotiations, DOT wanted to lease - not buy - the tracks. But after CSX insisted, Kopelousis says a decision was made that Florida "needs to own our destiny." If that's so, why does she want to sell highways like Alligator Alley?

While Amtrak cannot legally provide commuter rail, it can provide inter-city rail. With creative and strategic thinking, DOT could create a passenger-rail system that would not only benefit the traveling public between Deland and Poinciana, it would improve passenger-rail service from Jacksonville to Tampa to Miami.

There's some question of whether Kopelousis is up to the task. Many consider her boxed in a corner, unable to think outside the box. She's shown no discernable leadership since the deal's defeat. Her heels appear dug in.

That's why the governor, who inherited this backroom deal, should charge his DOT secretary with convening a credible - and visible - process to develop a Central Florida commuter-rail system that earns the public's trust and support.

Kopelousis and DOT need a paradigm shift.

Rather than help a for-profit railroad achieve its strategic goals, DOT should focus on creating the best public transportation solutions for Florida taxpayers.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/aug/03/bz-dot-should-review-other-options-to-build-commut/

Jason, you are right,.......the light rail was going to use existing ROW to reduce expenses:

QuoteInterstate Route Best for Orlando, Fla.-Area Light Rail, Officials...
Free with registration - Orlando Sentinel - AccessMyLibrary.com - Jun 14, 2001
14--If light rail ever gets built north of Orlando, the route will closely ... to run the system next to existing rail tracks owned by CSX Transportation. ...  

For those who may not know, a major impetus for the SunRail line is the planned I-4 reconstruction....this project will basically have I-4 being a mess (yes, worse than it is now) through the urban core area of Orlando for 6+ years....and the project is scheduled to start in 2012, so they need to get SunRail up and running so there is an alternative.

So while SunRail may not touch congested areas like the airport and UCF, it paraelells I-4 for a reason...and, btw...that's also how TriRail got started.

That light rail line was also not going to serve areas like the airport and UCF.  Furthermore, if we want to lump the S-Line upgrades, road overpasses and the Winter Haven yard in with the price of commuter rail, its still cheaper than the light rail plan from a few years ago.  The light rail plan was less than 25 miles in length and never went outside of Orange County.  The commuter rail plan is 61 miles and serves Orange, Osceola, Seminole and Volusia Counties.

Some more info on the latest vote:

Quoteorlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-asecsunrail21042109apr21,0,3974804.story

OrlandoSentinel.com
SunRail plan survives close vote, chugs on
By Dan Tracy

Sentinel Staff Writer

April 21, 2009

TALLAHASSEE


The proposed SunRail commuter train rolled out of a Senate hearing Monday â€" barely â€" but its next stop remains uncertain.

The $1.2 billion project may need to go before another committee, or it could end up on the Senate floor for a vote that would determine its fate. With nine days left before the session's scheduled adjournment May 1, supporters want to go to the floor soon, though it is not certain they have the 21 votes necessary to win in the 40-member chamber.

The would-be train eked out a 4-3 vote in the Transportation and Economic Development Appropriations Committee, but the swing vote â€" cast by Sen. Chris Smith, D- Fort Lauderdale â€" was less than enthusiastic.

"This is still a very ugly bill, a bill that needs a lot of work. ...  But I don't think it needs to be killed dead," Smith said.

Smith's vote came only after sponsors allowed him to attach a local-option rental-car surcharge, a $2-a-day levy that would require approval by a county commission supermajority and a county's voters in a referendum. South Florida legislators are hoping the tax could raise as much as $40 million to support their Tri-Rail commuter system.

Smith and other South Florida Democrats oppose requiring a referendum. But Gov. Charlie Crist and anti-tax Republicans have made clear that's the only way they'll support it â€" and they could still turn against it on the Senate floor.

SunRail also faces stiff opposition from Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, who has assembled a coalition of unions, Democrats and anti-tax Republicans. She was responsible for scuttling SunRail in last year's Legislature.

"I don't even know why this is a close call," Dockery complained after Monday's vote went against her.

Dockery contends the entire deal â€" which would pay CSX $650 million for rail improvements and a new freight yard and buy an umbrella $200 million policy to pay victims of accidents caused by either a freight or a commuter train â€" is a "giveaway" to the giant railroad company. She also fears that extra freight traffic could be rerouted to Lakeland because of SunRail.

Adding to SunRail's woes was a decision by the House in the budget it passed last week to sweep $400 million from state Department of Transportation trust funds to help balance the 2009-10 budget. If that decision holds up, SunRail and numerous road projects across the state would be delayed for years, DOT officials said.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-asecsunrail21042109apr21,0,3974804.story

"a local-option rental-car surcharge, a $2-a-day levy ( to save Tri-Rail) that would require approval by a county commission supermajority and a county's voters in a referendum."

This will be difficult, but I think it's important we help Tri-Rail survive (there needs to be dedicated funding to operate Tri-Rail).

"But Gov. Charlie Crist and anti-tax Republicans have made clear that's the only way they'll support it â€" and they could still turn against it on the Senate floor."

That would be shameful. Starving Tri-rail while promoting Sunrail. It's not like this rental surcharge is taxing Floridians....

It seems like we have shortsighted politicians who want to kill both.

QuoteSunrail caught in budget stalemate

TALLAHASSEE -- Nothing has been easy this session for SunRail, the $1.2 billion commuter rail program that’s struggling to win legislative approval. And on Tuesday, the train’s path to the Senate floor â€" where it will live or die â€" got harder.

Senate budget chief J.D. Alexander, R-Lake Wales, said the chamber won’t take up the train bill as long as the House persists in taking $420 million in road/transit money and using it to fund other programs, an action the House approved last week.

Unless and until the House abandons that position, Alexander said, there’s no point in bringing SunRail to the floor, where it’s likely to produce a drawn-out debate and uncertain outcome.

“There no reason to take a divisive vote on the floor … it could go either way, but why do that if you’re going to sweep the trust fund and take away the very funding that you would be arguing about,” Alexander said.

If lawmakers vote to drain that much cash from the state's $560 million transportation trust fund, “you’re going to turn the Department of Transportation into the Department of Pothole Repair,” imperiling both SunRail and the Port of Miami tunnel project, he added.

Sen. Paula Dockery, the Lakeland Republican fighting the SunRail deal, has said she has the votes to kill the insurance bill on the floor, and its sponsor, Sen. Lee Constantine, R-Altamonte Springs, wasn't willing to disagree Tuesday -- adding Senate President Jeff Atwater probably wouldn't let it hit the floor if he didn't think it had the votes to pass.

But Alexander said it might not even get that far in the decision-making process.

“If that’s the House’s position, then why go through a torturous debate that may or may not turn out that way, when essentially the issue’s been resolved by the budget decisions of the House?" he said.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2009/04/sunrail-caught-in-budget-stalemate.html