Metro Jacksonville

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/22/29528809_9e58cdb6eb.jpg)

Here's an idea to gather information. How many businesses would be positively impacted by moving, and thus building a new Convention Center, and bringing Amtrak back downtown. For the purpose of this information gathering, we need to guesstimate every related industry in some detail, and assume that the new train station is equipped to be a full service terminal for all carriers.

I can start this off with just the service ware on a single dining car:

96 Individual Bakers
20 Casserole Dishes
20 Casserole Covers
12 Celery Troughs
12 Comports
75 Bouillon Cups
84 Coffee Cups
24 Egg Cups
45 Oatmeal Bowls
15 12-oz. Pitchers
24 Round Pie Dishes
30 Individual Berry Pie Dishes
12 A-la-carte Berry Pie Dishes
120 Bread & Butter Plates
72 Dinner Plates
18 Soup Plates
96 Tea Plates
12 Medium Platters
60 Small Platters
6 Chocolate Pots
36 Tea Pots
96 Coffee Saucers
24 Gravy Boats
96 Sauce Dishes
9 Shirred Egg Dishes

OCKLAWAHA

Reverting the Prime Osborne back to a train station IMO is a good idea, but using tax dollars to build a Convention Center is a bad idea for 2 reasons.  1) The convention business is very competitive and not very profitable.  2) The property most likely to be the site of a new convention center (the current City Hall Annex and County Courthouse) needs to go back on the tax rolls.  I doubt that COJ can operate a CC without huge losses.  If no one will build and run a CC privately, we'd be better off without one.  Maybe someone could partner with the Hyatt to make it happen.

Convention centers are like roads, mass transit, public libraries and schools.  They may be money losers on their own, but the help spur development and feed the growth of a community.  The indirect monetary income providing these things makes investing in them worthwhile.

In the past, both Sleiman (Landing) and the Hyatt have expressed an interest in building a new convention center on or near the Bay Street courthouse site.  I think a public/private partnership is something worth exploring in the future to get the convention center out of the terminal. 

The time for that exploration is now... the new courthouse construction will begin soon.  Sure would be nice to have something figured out before everyone is moved out of the old building so work can commence on the site.

I agree.  The time to explore should have already occurred, but now is just as good a time as any.

It could possibly save Peytons legacy regarding the courthouse debacle to provide some creative leadership regarding the disposal and future plans of the old courthouse site.  I mean... a person could almost get behind the new courthouse if everyone could get excited about the prospects of the old site...

Sigh... dream on bt... :)

(http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakonline/abrJacksonville_Station.jpg)

If Jacksonville develops its Jacksonville Transportation Center, with the Convention Center right in the middle of the complex, it is going to be a disaster.

(http://www.micdot.com/popup/miami_central_station.jpg)
Where's Miami's Convention Center in this photo?

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IleclKMZ1Mg/SZUWhR4J3mI/AAAAAAAABhE/zKdUDc68Z-U/s400/AtlTerminal-Layout.png)

Go back to sleep Jacksonville, Atlanta or Miami will do it while we think about it.


For you flyboys it would be like building a convention center at the junction of runways 4L22R and 9L27R at Chicago O'Hare. It REALLY is that big of a deal breaker.

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/49/148508315_5e4ff1dedf.jpg)
Span Bay Street? Oh yeah, Dallas does it.

Moving it to the Waterfront as a public/private partnership perhaps with 2 more highrise hotels as anchors and a remake of the Landing and incorporation of the Hyatt and we'd have a WORLD CLASS center on the riverwalk. Shouldn't we be shooting for 200,000+ sq ft? If Jason is still around I love to see his models of the Convention center on the riverfront. I really wish it would span Bay Street and take out the whole Criminal Justice Complex.

(http://z.about.com/d/hotels/1/0/H/T/2/atrium_monorail.jpg)

Two large hotels Hyatt and ?? would bracket the center on either side, on the west of the Main Street Bridge the rebuilt landing would anchor another hotel at it's west end next to the Times Union Center. Visitors would have the option of walking the Riverwalk or walking through mall like passageway from roughly the current Jail and Berkman all the way to the TU CENTER and Omni. Streetcar and antique buses would complete the scene, and the Skyway could punch through on the East end of Bay where it flies over the road.

(http://www.urbanrail.net/am/dall/convention-center1.jpg)
A train coming through the middle of the house? Dallas Convention Center LRT station.

Until then I'm all about a temporary JAXPORT PASSENGER type terminal and immediate reconstruction of the Park/Lee Street Viaduct and 4 new tracks with 3 platforms. This temp-Terminal would serve the downtown until we get the convention center moved and can go to work on a REAL station of all stations SOUTHEAST.  

OCKLAWAHA

Charlotte's LRT line goes through it's Convention Center as well.

Interesting. Hasn't been must rail and mass transit talk since gas prices went down. Good to see people are still at it.

Quote from: Coolyfett on March 29, 2009, 06:08:05 PM
Interesting. Hasn't been must rail and mass transit talk since gas prices went down. Good to see people are still at it.

Haven't seen you on here in a while... You been on a train or something? Good to see you back!!

OCKLAWAHA

ock...Miami's hub (the MIC) is out at the airport which may or may not be the best place....the Convention Center is downtown....but check Philly out....one of its major transportation hubs is Market East....and guess what they built right next door....yep, a Convention Center!

Thanks TUFSU, it's not the "next door" that worrys me, it's the RIGHT SMACK IN THE MIDDLE that I don't think is functional. Frankly if they followed the MJ plan to compact the terminal on the current Prime Osbourne site, then if they must, they could build the C-center to the North in LaVilla.

In other words next door would be fine here too, but I'm not really a big fan of LaVilla being the home of a Convention Center as it's too removed from the walkable core.

OCKLAWAHA

Correct, next door isn't the issue, although not being near complementing uses certainly is on the convention center side of things.   The problem with the current situation is that it stretches something that should be compact (for efficient transferring between different modes) into a linear monster potentially making transferring a nightmare while wasting potential infill TOD land in the process.  Its quite unfortunate that we continue to plan major projects like this without proper coordination in the 21st century. 

In this case, I don't blame the transit side.  Its the city that refuses to address the convention center issue.  At very least, we need to decide whether the convention center is going to stay or move.  The worst thing that could happen is, the JTC being built as proposed and then the city finally deciding the convention center is better off somewhere else.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 29, 2009, 10:35:35 PM
In this case, I don't blame the transit side.  Its the city that refuses to address the convention center issue.  At very least, we need to decide whether the convention center is going to stay or move.  The worst thing that could happen is, the JTC being built as proposed and then the city finally deciding the convention center is better off somewhere else.

Well Oracle, looks like we now KNOW what will probably happen!

OUCH!

OCKLAWAHA

well, if the City would commit to moving the CC then I bet JTA would love to develop the JRTC on one parcel around the Jacksonville Terminal.....still have the Skyway on Bay St, but that can be worked around.

No doubt.  It would be in everyone's best interest.

 :D You have to be dreaming if you think ATL will drink the Kool-aid and expand their rail services. The old Southern station on Peachtree is fine for their needs, with a train on the way to and from New Orleans and DC. Why would they shell out BILLIONS when Marta is also cutting back service, due to budget issues? Old Union Station is gone, as the Fed leveled it years ago, let it go....

I think the Salvation Army is close to our existing Convention Center, so the BUMS would mimic downtown Atlanta and have a nice place to beg people for money. Should be a very nice scene, ripe with lots of papers and TV the day a BUM gets arrested for begging for money from people who were too cheap to fly, who took the train, essentially, in the US, one step up from BUS travel.

Quotewell, if the City would commit to moving the CC then I bet JTA would love to develop the JRTC on one parcel around the Jacksonville Terminal.....still have the Skyway on Bay St, but that can be worked around.

The only way the JTA can grow is through future sales taxes. Are you willing to pay another cent sales tax for something that will attract marginal people and pay on it for 50 years? Some people would say taxes are too high, but its OK to give JTA money that maybe a few people will use, with no one with concrete studies that people will actually use the system?

Anyone seen empty buses? When the buses are filled, demand is there for rail, till then, keep dreaming the dream!

^I'd prefer JTA to use the current $100 million in BJP money they are sitting on to improve their system before we start talking about raising taxes.  We should also be looking at ways to take advantage of federal stimulus dollars for mass transit (including Amtrak), if it can be used to enhance our local offerings.

QuoteThe only way the JTA can grow is through future sales taxes.

No. Actually, all that has to happen is that the funds being stockpiled to build yet another 'outer beltway' that will be totally negative in it's impact, instead be spent on alternative infrastructure (rail) that will counteract sprawl rather than create more of it.   

See Salt Lake City, Charlotte, Phoenix, New Mexico etc. for examples.

Finding capital funds isnt really the problem....the true and harder question is finding a stream of revenue to cover all the operating and maintenance costs of any transit system.

Some people you will never be able to convince for the need of transit, they refuse to see how fixed guideway transit (rail) has dramatic impacts on landuse and the good it does. It is true we can't convince everybody to ride transit (rail or bus) but people should at least have an option. In Jacksonville those options are severely limited.

Ock, here you go!



An idea of what a convention center could look like sitting atop the Landing and Hyatt parking area...

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/HyattConventionCenter-2-1.jpg)

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/HyattConventionCenter-1-1.jpg)

The other idea is to replace the old courthouse with a new center.  More room and a direct beneficial expansion to the Bay Street entertainment district.  Throw in an anchor hotel on the site of the existing Annex and the strip is complete.


(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ConventionCenter-2.jpg)

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ConventionCenter-1.jpg)



View looking down Bay Street.

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/ConventionCenter-3.jpg)

Quote from: fsujax on April 01, 2009, 09:26:01 AM
Finding capital funds isnt really the problem....the true and harder question is finding a stream of revenue to cover all the operating and maintenance costs of any transit system.

Some people you will never be able to convince for the need of transit, they refuse to see how fixed guideway transit (rail) has dramatic impacts on landuse and the good it does. It is true we can't convince everybody to ride transit (rail or bus) but people should at least have an option. In Jacksonville those options are severely limited.

Annual operating budget of selected streetcar systems:

$4.9 million (FY 2008) - Portland Streetcar (4 mile system) - 12-15 minute headways*

$3.9 million (FY 2005) - Memphis Streetcar (7 mile system) - 5-10 minute headways

$2.0 million (FY 2008) - Seattle South Lake Union Streetcar (1.3 mile system) - 15 minute headways*

$2.5 million (FY 2008) - Tacoma Link Streetcar (1.6 mile system) - 10 minute headways*

$2.5 million (FY 2006) - Tampa TECO Streetcar (3 mile system) - 15 minute headways

$650,000 (FY 2007) - Little Rock River Rail Streetcar (3.4 mile system) - 25 minute headways

$335,000 (FY 2008) - Kenosha Streetcar (1.9 mile system) - 15-17 minute headways

*- Modern streetcar systems have higher annual O&M costs.


Annual O&M costs per mile:

$1.23 million (FY 2008) - Portland Streetcar

$557,143 (FY 2005) - Memphis Streetcar**

$1.54 million (FY 2008) - Seattle South Lake Union Streetcar

$1.65 million (FY 2008) - Tacoma Link Streetcar

$833,333 (FY 2006) - Tampa TECO Streetcar**

$191,176 (FY 2007) - Little Rock River Rail Streetcar**

$176,316 (FY 2008) - Kenosha Streetcar**

**-Heritage Streetcar system annual O&M costs tend to be significantly cheaper per mile.

link to data: http://www.fortworthgov.com/uploadedFiles/Planning_and_Development/Miscellaneous_(template)/Peer%20City%20Handout%20for%20distribution.pdf


Message to Jacksonville

There's nothing new under the Sun.  Set a budget and attempt to stick to it by developing an initial "no-frills" segment that can operate in a similar fashion to existing systems with low O&M cost.

Let's assume we spend $50 of the $100 million to construct a 4-mile initial heritage rail corridor between DT and Riverside. Let's also assume we offer a Little Rock style service with a goal to cut our annual O&M costs down to $200k/mile or an overall cost of $1 million per year.  If we set aside another $15 million of the BJP funds for O&M costs, we could potentially run a system, with no fare charge for 15 years before another funding source would have to be discovered.

Charge a fare, offer sponsorships, special event rental and advertising opportunities, then combine that profit with the $15 million set aside and you could stretch the dollar more.  With a little creative thinking, we could easily pay for two decades worth of a decent streetcar system with a portion of money we already have in hand.  This will give the community a chance to see the benefits of rail, plus this investment could be potentially be leveraged to pull in federal dollars needed to continue building out our long term integrated transit plan.

^If money is still a concern, take a page for Dallas and go with volunteer labor.

http://www.napta.net/actioncenter/resources/publications/streetcars/07.asp#dallastx

In the end, if we really want to get rail started here, we can do it with money we already have in hand.

Wow Jason... Looks great! :o  Talk about economic stimulas.  New Courthouse, tear down old and replace with convention center and hotel, Convert Prime Osborne back to an Amtrak station, move bus depot to same area creating the transit hub, add a streetcar.

Just dreamin here... How about moving the police and jailhouse?  Perhaps they could go next to the new courthouse? :o

Lakelander, I am sure JTA is looking at those options as well. Running a major rail system is not cheap no matter how its being paid for. Just thinking realistically.

Can JTA use BJP money to cover operating costs? Sounds like a legal question.

We'll never know if we don't try.  If Peyton can get council to take all of that money and throw it into port and courthouse improvements, I'd say anything is possible at this point.  However, it will have to be packaged and sold to council and the community as part of a plan to implement an integrated regional transit system.  In any event, its definitely better than spending it all on ROW only. 

Quote from: fsujax on April 01, 2009, 10:35:20 AM
Lakelander, I am sure JTA is looking at those options as well. Running a major rail system is not cheap no matter how its being paid for. Just thinking realistically.

The underlying factor is, we have to start somewhere and build up from there.  We'll never reach the point that we'll find the answer to paying for +90 miles of rail without getting our feet wet first.

Atlanta is pretty far along in the finance of the new MultiModal Amtrak Station in downtown.
A simple Google search will turn up images, photos, etc.
Try it.

Within 3 years of the station comes JAX-ATL Amtrak.

OCKLAWAHA

BT, I'd also build the new courthouse on the site of the Greyhound station (which moved to the Transit Hub).  It's still adjacent the new garage and will provide a built-in ridership for the skyway because of the connection between Central Station and Hemming Plaza.  Not to mention the fact that a new building on that lot would most definitely add to the skyline!

Quote from: fsujax on April 01, 2009, 10:35:20 AM
Lakelander, I am sure JTA is looking at those options as well. Running a major rail system is not cheap no matter how its being paid for. Just thinking realistically.

Long term LRT or Streetcar O&M costs are lower then the same route miles of BRT or Bus transit.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Jason on April 01, 2009, 10:44:47 AM
BT, I'd also build the new courthouse on the site of the Greyhound station (which moved to the Transit Hub).  It's still adjacent the new garage and will provide a built-in ridership for the skyway because of the connection between Central Station and Hemming Plaza.  Not to mention the fact that a new building on that lot would most definitely add to the skyline!

I don't know Jason, that Greyhound building is one of the few Art Deco pieces we have in downtown. Rebuilt with the chroms, steel and glass industrial arts of the 1930's I'm sure we could find a recycle use for it that would rock the town. I'd hate to knock down another historic gem. In fact the neon sign out front has been photographed and used across the film industry as much as any other sign in the country.  

OCKLAWAHA

Maybe move it?  Maybe build the courthouse around it and keep the fascade?

Is there anything historically significant on the interior worth saving?  If not, you could preserve the facade as a part of an entry courtyard and construct a new building behind it.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/459276235_6GSP2-M.jpg)

At street level, you can't tell the difference.

Streetcar/ trolley maintenance facility?

Inside has been rebuilt several times over the years, the restaurant is gone "THE POST HOUSE" and the entire passenger area enlarged. The office or South end of building and upstairs are more likely the better parts on the inside. Wonder whats above the stupid false ceiling? But otherwise, I tend to agree, I would make a great recycle building keeping the historic outside, even the neon dog sign, sort of like Portlands "GO BY STREETCAR" sign.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 01, 2009, 10:59:46 AM
Streetcar/ trolley maintenance facility?

That could work.  That would also be a good centralized location for the trolley museum that Ock keeps preaching about.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 01, 2009, 10:59:46 AM
Streetcar/ trolley maintenance facility?

Add the MUSEUM word and you might have a REAL WINNER!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on April 01, 2009, 11:01:54 AM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 01, 2009, 10:59:46 AM
Streetcar/ trolley maintenance facility?

That could work. That would also be a good centralized location for the trolley museum that Ock keeps preaching about.

Just as "STEAM PUNK" is becoming very popular, the public is fascinated by the technology of the 1800-1940 period. It's really not enough just to ride the old streetcars, but the men in the crowd tend to want to see what makes them tick. Add a gift shop and a public viewing area to the shop complex, and you have instant museum, and an extra revenue stream.

Little Robert plays with his toy trolley more then any other, it was his first "train" ride and he's hooked. So lets sell them all a motor mans hat, a toy trolley or coffee mug!  

OCKLAWAHA

Well, that just doesn't work with my "ruler of the world" plans.  :)

Dear Fearless Leader:

We could always lift the whole block to the top of your new 400 story World Leader Building in downtown Jason!

But for the streetcars that's going to be a hell of a climb.

OCKLAWAHA

I'll grant you the first three levels and multiple sub levels for all of the railroading and streetcar stuff you can fit.  :)

Wow, if only the public would get behind an idea like this. That and the funding the city would need. Here's a thought though. Downtown needs more... well just more. Businesses, residential, parks, malls, whatever. Otherwise the hotels would be empty most of the year. How about a mall consortium buys one of the historic high rises downtown and converts the interior into a mall? I bet that would pull some people.

Quote from: vicupstate on April 01, 2009, 09:17:57 AM

QuoteThe only way the JTA can grow is through future sales taxes.

No. Actually, all that has to happen is that the funds being stockpiled to build yet another 'outer beltway' that will be totally negative in it's impact, instead be spent on alternative infrastructure (rail) that will counteract sprawl rather than create more of it.   

See Salt Lake City, Charlotte, Phoenix, New Mexico etc. for examples.

From what I've heard at their public meetings, with the exception of "a few million" for environmental and engineering studies, there is no money "stockpiled to build yet another outer beltway".  If that road is built, it will be built by a private company that will charge tolls to get their money back.

But I like the idea of using BJP funds for a starter streetcar system as described above.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 01, 2009, 11:37:56 PM

Quote from: vicupstate on April 01, 2009, 09:17:57 AM

QuoteThe only way the JTA can grow is through future sales taxes.

No. Actually, all that has to happen is that the funds being stockpiled to build yet another 'outer beltway' that will be totally negative in it's impact, instead be spent on alternative infrastructure (rail) that will counteract sprawl rather than create more of it.   

See Salt Lake City, Charlotte, Phoenix, New Mexico etc. for examples.

From what I've heard at their public meetings, with the exception of "a few million" for environmental and engineering studies, there is no money "stockpiled to build yet another outer beltway".  If that road is built, it will be built by a private company that will charge tolls to get their money back.

But I like the idea of using BJP funds for a starter streetcar system as described above.

Anyone that thinks a 'private company' is going to build a tollway is a crack addict.  I don't doubt that there isn't a pile of cash in a bank for that project, but I bet it will get funding in the future long before any rail project. 

Quote from: vicupstate on April 02, 2009, 07:26:38 AM
Anyone that thinks a 'private company' is going to build a tollway is a crack addict.  I don't doubt that there isn't a pile of cash in a bank for that project, but I bet it will get funding in the future long before any rail project. 

wrong....there are several international finance firms that do build toll roads...Macquarie (Australia) is one and there are several with HQ in Spain....

In the case of our Outer Beltway, the RFP from last year asked for firms interested in designing, constructing, and operating the road....they got responses from several of these international firms which formed consortiums with local companies.

The process hit a snag when it was realized that if FDOT provided the land, than the selected firm would be responsible for property taxes....whcih would make the total long-term cost outrageous and not feasible....the Legislature is attempting to fix the problem in this year's session

You are so right TUFSU1, there are several in South Florida either in construction, finished or on the drawing boards right now. The old BEE LINE turnpike from Orlando to the Cape was originally "MARTIN-ANDERSON (as in Aero Space) BEE LINE", then became the Martin-Marietta BEE LINE, now called the "BEACH LINE". Are you telling me THEY didn't have a hand in this?????

BTW, I hate the new name almost as bad as I hate the rest of Orlando and the surrounding area. The new name sold out one of the best known highway logos in the history of the state. A series of signs with a bright yellow BEE on it - looking like he just flew out of the BEE MOVIE! Idiots, now what are we going to get a surf board? Duh? Oh how original.  

OCKLAWAHA

I liked the "Bee Line" name as well.  Although, I have grown fond of the city of Orlando.  Its the remainder of the sprawling metro that I don't care for.