Seven railroad museums in Florida, 263 in North America with at least one in nearly every state, and none in Jacksonville, the capital of Florida railroad history and HQ to all its railroads?
How about making this a major Jax project/tourist attraction? Where are all the RR buffs? How about support from CSX, FEC, and Rail America?
I think, if we relocate the convention center, that Union Station and the parking lot behind it could be restored into one of the greatest rail museums in the US. How about it?
http://www.railmuseums.com/namerica/FLORIDA/
http://www.railmuseums.com/namerica/index.html
Why not this in Jacksonville? See how they did it at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania (I visited a few years ago when travelling through Pennsylvania Dutch country. An amazing place.): http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/index.shtml
With all the railroaders in Jax and a little assistance from the community, City, and State, we should be able to pull this one off (a lot easier than dealing with a retired aircraft carrier? ;D)
(http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/rostershow/p7ssm_img_1/fullsize/PRR_5901_DSC_1026_fs.jpg)
QuoteThe original core of our collection, since greatly expanded, is a fantastic assortment of vintage locomotives and rolling stock that the Pennsylvania Railroad assembled for the 1939-1940 New York World's Fair. The "Pennsy" had been preparing for the fair for a number of years by gathering together and refurbishing historic equipment and relics from the earlier decades of railroading.....
....The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania resolved in 1963 to build a State Railroad Museum and in 1965 selected a site adjacent to the Strasburg Railroad (the oldest continuously operated short-line railroad in the United States), and broke ground for the Museum facility in 1972.
Meanwhile, in 1968, the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central merged to form the Penn Central Corporation in a joint effort to stay in business.
Penn Central had other plans for the bulk of the artifacts and by September of 1969 it appeared that a significant part of the PRR collection was earmarked for inclusion into the collection of the National Museum of Transportation in St. Louis, Missouri. Organizations and individuals opposed the breakup of the unique collection and lobbied successfully against the move.
The PRR collection was moved piecemeal with the first locomotives arriving in October of 1969 and the other pieces arriving in various stages through 1975 when the first section of the museum exhibit hall was completed.
The historic locomotives and rolling-stock from the Penn Central were, at first, leased to the Railroad Museum but the continuing financial struggles of the huge railroad corporation prompted the Commonwealth to purchase the collection because of the uncertain future of the locomotives and cars. This was accomplished in December of 1979 in a last-minute frantic deal between the Commonwealth and Penn Central Corporation.
In the years preceding the acquisition of this historic collection by the Railroad Museum, a few pieces of the collection were, sadly, lost in the shuffle. The I1 decapod (2-10-0) was eventually acquired by a New York railfan group and two other early Pennsylvania Railroad Company subsidiaries' locomotives were sent to other museums.
The original Museum exhibit hall's interior resembled an early train shed of circa 1860 and measured some 320 by 150 feet. In June of 1995, as one of the event highlights commemorating the 150th anniversary of the founding of the Pennsylvania Railroad, the museum opened a new addition which doubled the length of the exhibit hall to 640 feet. The new award-winning addition is modeled after a glass-roofed train shed of the early 20th century. It features some 46 pieces of locomotives and rolling stock on 5 different tracks.
Exhibits celebrating the early history of railroading in Pennsylvania fill the side aisles and platforms, with displays featuring railroad employees in other areas of the main exhibit hall.
Outside, a number of additional locomotives and rolling stock occupy a five and a half acre yard, centered around an operational 1928 Reading Railroad turntable.
While the Museum is known as the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, it is not the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum. It celebrates all railroads and railroad-related industries that contributed to the history of the Commonwealth. The collection has grown impressively and includes locomotives and rolling stock from at least 18 different Pennsylvania railroads and 22 different builders overall.
In addition to the locomotives and rolling stock, the Museum displays an extensive collection of railroad objects including lanterns, china, tools and accessories, clocks, watches and minutia that accumulates around railroads and rail yards.
The Railroad Museum is always seeking to acquire more historic material and welcomes donations. All acquisitions must be consistent with Museum needs and requirements.
(http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/rostershow/p7ssm_img_1/fullsize/3750lg_fs.jpg)
(http://www.urhs.org/pictures/museum_model.jpg)
Railroad Museum of PA., it would take a lot more room then we have! Remember sooner or later the Convention Center goes away and the whole property reverts to the purposes as GOD intended.
While I agree that we should be the Railroad Center of the South, with a museum that reflects that. A museum who's numbers would rank somewhere above Wet and Wild in annual visitors. A FUNDED museum with covered acreage for indoor displays...
BUT...
It's near impossible today to get at the stuff that has any history in this area, let alone anything else historic.
By the late 1970's most excess passenger cars were in private hands, older freight cars, made illegal to interchange, were burned by the thousands and the remaining metal sold for scrap.
Gone are the chances to save the Alco DL109's that pulled the Ponce De Leon into our station.
Gone are the Seaboard Air Line Extended Vision cabooses
Gone are the Purple, Silver and Gold E Units that hustled the Atlantic Coast Line Trains.
Gone are the unique BL-2's and side door cabooses of the FEC.
Gone is the USN 44 ton "navy train" switcher from the NAS Railroad.
Gone are the smaller center cabs on the Municipal Docks and Terminal RY.
Steam locomotives, diesels and passenger cars can be had from brokers, but the days of the railroads donating historic equipment are over. With rare exception, there just ISN'T ANYMORE. Without a ton of money to BUY a collection, it would be like trying to open a museum of ancient Egypt, then trying to buy a pyramid. Good luck.
This would have to be studied by the City and the local NRHS and R&LHS Members, as well as the railroads. As I said it could be done, but it wouldn't be easy. Further you would run into a real danger, one that TRAIN, (Tourist Railroad Association) calls the "Mickey D - Museums". Go out and grab a box car, any car, any railroad, get a caboose or two, and a this and a that and POOF! INSTANT MUSEUM. Except that it lacks any connection to anything important to the community.
I don't want to discourage this idea, just a warning to go slow with it.
OCKLAWAHA
How about a local transportation museum? From my trips around town, it seems like we have a lot of things we could pull together to make a decent attraction. We could start by taking the steam locomotive and passenger cars rusting away in the Prime Osborn's parking lot.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453072644_HqqdC-M.jpg)
A long dead steam locomotive would be about as much of an attraction indoors as it is outdoors. However, if someone like ... um.... CSX would haul it to the shops, pull off the boiler, tear out the flues and then rebuild the whole thing, a live steam locomotive would be HUGE.
A lot of "other" steam engines around the country are sitting in parks or roadside rest stops, many have outlived their purpose and in danger of falling apart. In several cases these type engines HAVE been given to a museum for cosmetic restoration. I know there was a beautiful one off one of the US highways somewhere in the Ocala - Dunnellon - Brooksville area.
Rare diesels? The concrete plant down by Bowden Yard has a genuine Alco switcher... She is the "PET" of the plant and it's staff, but sooner or later $$ and repairs will retire her. When that happens a local museum should be on the list to grab her. Ditto the Conrad Yelvington Alco's in Orlando, they even have road switchers (big freight engines), they also have a yard full of Alco diesel engine blocks and whole assemblies sitting in the maintenance yard for repairs. There is a company in PA that operates shortlines with BALDWIN diesels, a bit of cash and some begging might return a couple to Jacksonville. (ACL, SOU and SAL all had Baldwin and Alco Diesels). JPA is also reported to have a Baldwin VO switcher sitting somewhere on Blount island, probably out of service. GM E and F units as well as early GP-7 and 9's are available for a price on the open market, but often the price isn't any more then the cost of a new compact automobile.
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteA long dead steam locomotive would be about as much of an attraction indoors as it is outdoors. However, if someone like ... um.... CSX would haul it to the shops, pull off the boiler, tear out the flues and then rebuild the whole thing, a live steam locomotive would be HUGE.
I think the attraction would not be in the steam locomotive alone, but the exhibits (both still and interactive), stories of local historic events and their impact on today's city, in conjuction with elements (ex. things like the locomotive) from Jacksonville's past.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 27, 2009, 07:32:38 PM
Ditto the Conrad Yelvington Alco's in Orlando, they even have road switchers (big freight engines), they also have a yard full of Alco diesel engine blocks and whole assemblies sitting in the maintenance yard for repairs.
The last time I delivered mail to CY off Dennis St., they had an Alco and a Geep for switching their tracks. Is the Alco still there or is it one of those now in Orlando?
Don't know, but I'll sure find out! This will be some fun - For you non-railroad types, just consider it a BIG GAME HUNT. Big, HUGE!
If your wondering why the railroaders are all a gah-gah over ALCO's, here are a few facts that make the game more fun:
ALCO ceased locomotive production in 1969, closed its Schenectady locomotive plant.
ALCO'S were considered honorary steam locomotives because when in a hard pull or standing start the cooling fans would overload and the engines would belch black smoke.
ALCO'S were labor intensive for mechanics, but they had their loyal following.
ALCO'S of x horsepower were said to be able to pull the socks off a GM, GE engine of the same x horsepower.
ALCO'S were once common to all Jacksonville roads except FEC.
ALCO'S had one other advantage besides raw pulling power, they were sure footed and could tred on the WORST TRACK in the world and manage to somehow hug the rails. The only other things close were the steam logging engines.
ALCO'S had the most distinct music (sound) of any diesel ever made
Check out these videos and bounce them off the CSX, NS, or FEC trains you see and hear today.
http://www.youtube.com/v/SQNepkn4Qyk&hl
http://www.youtube.com/v/G0ck6RvjMWg&hl
OCKLAWAHA
Transportation museum, are you guys still dreaming? This city does not even have the money for a building for all of the Historical Archives, and the Merrill House at the ballpark is merely just for show, the Historical society has 2 rooms in the back of the St. Andrews Church, and it needs the support before a transportation museum.
Ock - CSX cares as much about Steam as a fart in the wind. They pulled the plug on all steam in the early 90s when they told ALL excursion roads that they needed to have 200 million in insurance BEFORE they would be considered to run on their lines. CSX and Ward care only about freight, not about what got them where they are with the C&O, B&O and Family Lines. They are as usefull as a tick on a dog.
If you want any help, ask for help from NS, they had their steam program until Goode passed on, and it was running as late as the late 90s. They still had shops to fix the 611 and others in Birmingham and Atlanta. Not sure anymore. They may be as bad as CSX.
CSX did move the 1504 from in front of its building to the convention center, to help cut down on maintenance, now its the City's repsonsibility. Go figure, the City would rather it sit and rust.
Perhaps when the city shows it cares about what it has, the 1504, the Seaboard car in front of the old Union Station, we may have something we can discuss, till then, no one cares down at 117 West Duval. Better to go beat a dead horse.
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 28, 2009, 01:19:06 AM
Transportation museum, are you guys still dreaming? This city does not even have the money for a building for all of the Historical Archives, and the Merrill House at the ballpark is merely just for show, the Historical society has 2 rooms in the back of the St. Andrews Church, and it needs the support before a transportation museum.
Ock - CSX cares as much about Steam as a fart in the wind. They pulled the plug on all steam in the early 90s when they told ALL excursion roads that they needed to have 200 million in insurance BEFORE they would be considered to run on their lines. CSX and Ward care only about freight, not about what got them where they are with the C&O, B&O and Family Lines. They are as usefull as a tick on a dog.
MTRAIN, Don't be so fast to judge here, this wasn't my suggestion. Read the thread and you'll see I'm not to keen on the chance for a "major" success. I couldn't agree more that the railroads would be about the last people on earth to desire a bunch of foamer's crawling over old equipment - much less operating it, ANYWHERE close to their lines. The main reason I said to look long before leaping into this isn't the city, state or national interest, it's the fact that most of the really interesting pieces are simply gone. Unless you want a museum full of "End of train devices", there just isn't much human aspect to today's stuff.
That said, I think a museum could work here, but it would have to be a private/public collection and loans from private collections, gathered in a building or space owned by the City or State. A foundation would have to be formed just like every other museum on earth, and donations accepted as well as special project donations. The NRHS has some old equipment stored in Green Cove Springs, and there are a couple more pieces scattered around the City and North, and North Central Florida.
BTW, UP still has active steam shops. Other then that Steamtown National Park, might be able to do a contract job. If the city rebuilds the "S" line for port access or commuter rail it would offer a ready made stretch for occasional trips up the old Seaboard. The scenery along that line is much improved over what most of us old timers remember. OCKLAWAHA
Ock - The Jacksonville Train Museum lives in my garage on my O-Guage layout.
Look at the number of visitors to the Maritime Museum Downtown, and then look at the number of people who travel to the Historic Society. Jax does a poor job at preserving and promoting history as part of the tourist appeal. Why would a transportation museum be any different?
Maybe we need a Jacksonville HISTORY Museum.
One that covers all aspects of Jax: Cowford, the Timucuans, Ft. Caroline, the Civil War, the Great Fire, the Railroads, the Port and Shipyards, the Navy, our architecture (since little can actually be viewed in person anymore :-[ , the paper and timber industries, insurance, finance, and banking, famous and accomplished residents, our history as the original Hollywood, sports, our culture, politics, general history, archives, etc.
If all this together couldn't fill a good size museum and attract a wide range and volume of visitors, what could? With all the interests represented, we could likely round up lots of support from the community![/color]
^Its the Currents of Time permanent exhibit at MOSH.
Lake, I am aware of what you speak. I have no criticism of this but I was thinking of something on a much grander scale and that had more universal appeal. More historical, more artifacts, connected to ongoing research and archives, etc.
A great location would be on the campus of one of our academic institutions such as UNF, JU, FCCJ (or is that Florida State, Jr.? :D).... or, as a branch of such a campus downtown (with the spinoff effect of tourists). This connection could help the musuem get grants, academic support, state funding, etc. and bolster departments in history, archeology, sociology, the humanities, etc. not to mention raising the profile of the institution.
It time to think out of the box!
If something were to be done, it would definitely make sense to locate it in close proximity to existing cultural establishments. We have to start clustering development to build vibrancy. If we continue to spread things out all over the community, we limit their impact.
I think that the a Railroad Museum would be fantastic in Jacksonville. I would take the Union Station and make that the Museum. If it wasn't for Henry Flagler and his railroad Florida would not be the Florida we have today.
These are just a few of the Railroads located in the state or railroads that have used Jacksonville Terminal in the past to bring passengers, tourist, business, and money to the State of Florida.
Alabama and Gulf Coast Railway
AN Railway
Atlantic Coast Line
Bay Line Railroad
CSX Transportation
First Coast Railroad
Florida Central Railroad
Florida East Coast Railway
Florida Midland Railroad
Florida Northern Railroad
The Florida Railroad Company
Florida West Coast Railroad
Georgia and Florida Railway
Norfolk Southern Railway
Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac
Seaboard System Railroad
Seaboard Airline
Seaboard Coastline
Seminole Gulf Railway
South Central Florida Express
Southern Railroad
Talleyrand Terminal Railroad
We need to show people (natives and visitors) that Jacksonville was once and still is the Gateway to Florida and always will be.
Quote from: jbovinette on April 01, 2009, 11:55:24 AM
These are just a few of the Railroads located in the state or railroads that have used Jacksonville Terminal in the past to bring passengers, tourist, business, and money to the State of Florida.
Alabama and Gulf Coast Railway
AN Railway
Atlantic Coast Line
Bay Line Railroad
CSX Transportation
First Coast Railroad
Florida Central Railroad
Florida East Coast Railway
Florida Midland Railroad
Florida Northern Railroad
The Florida Railroad Company
Florida West Coast Railroad
Georgia and Florida Railway
Norfolk Southern Railway
Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac
Seaboard System Railroad
Seaboard Airline
Seaboard Coastline
Seminole Gulf Railway
South Central Florida Express
Southern Railroad
Talleyrand Terminal Railroad
We need to show people (natives and visitors) that Jacksonville was once and still is the Gateway to Florida and always will be.
An impressive list. Would the "Jacksonville Terminal Company" qualify for this list? The Waymark article below on the subject also list some other railroads not mentioned. And, here is a link to another history of Jacksonville railroading that list more lines still: http://www.cowart.info/Florida%20History/trains/railroad.his.htm
QuoteThe Jacksonville Terminal Company owned Union Station in Jacksonville, Florida, USA, and the trackage surrounding it. It was partly owned by each railroad feeding into it.
The first Union Station in Jacksonville was built by the Savannah, Florida and Western Railway (later part of the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad) in 1883. The Jacksonville, Tampa and Key West Railway (also later part of the ACL) began to use it in 1884. Other terminals served the Florida Central and Peninsular Railroad (later part of the Seaboard Air Line Railway), the Florida East Coast Railway, and the Georgia Southern and Florida Railway.
The company was incorporated in 1894 by Henry Flagler, who owned the Florida East Coast Railway. Its first Union Depot opened on February 4, 1895, and was completed on January 15, 1897. It came to be known as the Flagler Depot.
The second Union Station (pictured in this waymark) opened in 1919 on the site of the original one, and was last used on January 3, 1974 (Amtrak now stops several miles north). In 1982, a public-private partnership was started, led by former CSX chairman Prime F. Osborn III. The station, now the Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center, opened at the site on October 17, 1986.
Link: http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM2VKW
JTC used to use 0-6-0 engines to move pullmans around the yards, then switched to diesel NW2s later, before the end.