Posted on Thursday, 03.19.09
This train has too much baggage
OUR OPINION: Florida should invest in commuter rail, but not SunRail project
Commuter trains can be a great way to move a lot of people from one place to another, especially when the trains are run efficiently and intersect with dense population areas. This is why the idea of a central Florida commuter line between DeLand and Poinciana, which would pass through busy Orlando, is so appealing. However, the appeal of the proposed 61-mile SunRail project under consideration in the Legislature loses much of its luster because of its high sticker price and its overly generous indemnity provisions.
Floridians, pay attention
Florida would buy the tracks from CSX railroad for $150 million and pay $496 million more to upgrade CSX facilities, including tracks for freight trains near the proposed commuter line. At roughly $10.5 million per mile, the $646 million price tag ranks among the highest prices ever paid for rail in the United States, according to state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, who favors commuter rail but opposes this proposal.
There is more. The cost of building the commuter line would add an additional $615 million to the overall price of the project. The costs would be divided among the federal government, which would pay half, the state, which picks up 25 percent, and five local governments, which will pay for the remaining 25 percent. In other words, all Florida taxpayers, including those in South Florida, have a stake in the project.
The legislation (SB1212 and H7009) deals primarily with providing insurance protection for the train operators, both CSX and the state -- and the terms of the deal will be extended to Tri-Rail. The problem is that the legislation assigns greater responsibility to the state for any accidents that occur and shields CSX from some of its own mistakes.
The bills require the Florida Department of Transportation to purchase $200 million in insurance protection for CSX in the event of accidents. CSX would be responsible for the costs of injury and damage in accidents that only involve its trains and personnel. But FDOT would be responsible for damages involving its trains and CSX trains, when passengers or anyone else connected to the commuter operation is injured. The protection would extend to CSX even if it is found to have been negligent or irresponsible.
Amend the deal
In an analysis of the bill, the Department of Financial Services concluded: 'This broad assumption of liability would cover liability `whatever nature or degree of fault' or 'misconduct,' '' including ``gross negligence and intentional acts.''
Florida needs a commuter-rail system, and the SunRail project would be a good place to show it can be done. However, the extraordinary costs and liability exposure in this measure are too great. The deal should be amended or scrapped altogether.
http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/story/957198.html
I must say, as a taxpayer I'd rather my money go towards Sunrail than the HSR plan between Tampa and Orlando. When you break these systems down for by their cost and what they do for Florida as a whole, even at the current price tag, Sunrail wins.
Quote from: FayeforCure on March 20, 2009, 10:01:54 PM
Posted on Thursday, 03.19.09
This train has too much baggage
OUR OPINION: Florida should invest in commuter rail, but not SunRail project
Florida would buy the tracks from CSX railroad for $150 million and pay $496 million more to upgrade CSX facilities, including tracks for freight trains near the proposed commuter line. At roughly $10.5 million per mile, the $646 million price tag ranks among the highest prices ever paid for rail in the United States, according to state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, who favors commuter rail but opposes this proposal.
There is more. The cost of building the commuter line would add an additional $615 million to the overall price of the project. The costs would be divided among the federal government, which would pay half, the state, which picks up 25 percent, and five local governments, which will pay for the remaining 25 percent. In other words, all Florida taxpayers, including those in South Florida, have a stake in the project.
The legislation (SB1212 and H7009) deals primarily with providing insurance protection for the train operators, both CSX and the state -- and the terms of the deal will be extended to Tri-Rail. The problem is that the legislation assigns greater responsibility to the state for any accidents that occur and shields CSX from some of its own mistakes.
The bills require the Florida Department of Transportation to purchase $200 million in insurance protection for CSX in the event of accidents. CSX would be responsible for the costs of injury and damage in accidents that only involve its trains and personnel. But FDOT would be responsible for damages involving its trains and CSX trains, when passengers or anyone else connected to the commuter operation is injured. The protection would extend to CSX even if it is found to have been negligent or irresponsible.
http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/story/957198.html
NOT MY OPINION... "But of course darling..."
Yes Florida PAY ATTENTION:
The SunRail deal requires the rail corridor's current owner, CSX Transportation, to sell the corridor to the state. CSX then would lease the corridor for some freight traffic, while also shifting additional freight (Aprox 9 daily trains) to a separate line that runs through Ocala and Lakeland. The state would buy $200 million in insurance for the SunRail line and shield CSX from most financial liability for accidents.
But to get the powerful trial lawyers lobby on board, lawmakers plan to eliminate language extending state sovereign immunity protection to companies hired to operate and maintain the line.
UNDERSTAND that the STATE (that's us folks) have Sovereign Immunity from getting the hell sued out of us in the event of a unfortunate accident. The operators (under some contract) which could even be CSX, or Amtrak, or more likely one of many private commuter rail companies, will NOT have immunity.
In effect we are giving CSX a "no fault" insurance policy for operations at Tri-Rail, and Sun-Rail. Doesn't matter who caused the accident, you pay for yours and our operator will pay for ours.
The Agreement in Principle between the Florida Department of Transportation and CSXT, announced Aug. 2, 2006 provides for the state purchase of 61.5 miles of CSXT tracks from DeLand to the Poinciana area. The agreement also gives FDOT full control over dispatch and maintenance operations along that stretch of track, to ensure the reliability of SunRail service in Central Florida. As part of final contract negotiations with CSXT, the freight hauler also will pay the state a per-car charge and annual fee for freight operations necessary to service local businesses in the Central Florida area.
The fact that this paragraph describes something a bit different then a track lease back (remember "CSX will then lease the corridor for some freight"). This describes a complete takeover of the privately held multibillion dollar railroad properties. A "per-car" (known as a wheel charge) or a "per-deim" fee is what one railroad charges another when off line cars pass over their tracks...
SAY WHAT OCK?
"You mean for every CSX car I see that crosses the St. Johns River Bridge downtown, the FEC must pay a fee?"
YEP! Perhaps now you understand the logic behind racing those trains North from South Florida, busting them up and sending 10 - 40 - 100 cars over that bridge night and day. The game is take em south, get em empty, and get them the hell off our tracks...FAST!
What the State is now describing is going far beyond a simple lease back of track. This is without a doubt a complete sellout by CSX of these lines.
Does that mean they won't operate trains through Orlando anymore?
Frankly they COULD just walk away from it and let the shortline FLORIDA CENTRAL take over all the local Orlando traffic. If CSX does this the result will be a disaster in Jacksonville as it would mean the end of through traffic between Jacksonville and Orlando, via the direct "A" line through Orange Park, Palatka, Deland, Sanford, etc... That could be an excuse to take down the drawbridge South of Palatka and routing all freight through Ocala. If they cut the line, we lose our Orlando - Tampa Amtrak route.
What will probably happen, if the guys at FDOT are awake, is CSX will prefer the Ocala line, but continue to use the "A" line for some services, and for capacity expansion. There would also be an AMTRAK factor that could play into this, with Amtrak perhaps owning the whole thing from JAX to Auburndale and working around the SunRail part.
So this could be a dangerous game for all of us unless we keep our eyes and ears open. I'd hate Orlando to win this system at the cost of through passenger train or freight service. We need a line to guarantee the CSX will not downgrade or seek abandonment of any part of the remaining "A" line.
THE FLORIDA C OF C IS CORRECT:
One significant transit solution Florida should build upon is the expansion of commuter rail. While commuter rail systems are being planned in several regions, the Central Florida region's proposed SunRail system provides the most immediate opportunity for construction activity that could leverage federal funding and quickly create thousands of jobs.
Not only will this project have an economic benefit for the whole stateâ€"by directly reinvesting private money in roadways, railroads and other transportation facilities throughout Floridaâ€"but it will also lay the foundation for passenger rail systems in other Florida regions desperate for multi-modal transportation solutions, including the JACKSONVILLE and Tampa Bay area.
BTW the phase I of the project is still under $700 Million dollars, less the income from moving freight cars.
So in the best scenario CSX gets cash to expand and build up front, the State goes on the limb for a Billion or so, and the freight pays it off so that the deal is free. Better Railroads, New Passenger Trains, Commuter Rail throughout and THEY PAY US, one carload at a time.
JAXPORT? Did you guys read that last line? Uh, "S" line? Springfield to Yulee? Blount Island? Neutral access? Commuter Rail income generator - FOREVER? HELLO! OCKLAWAHA
^In addition, the Sunrail project will be constructed by a Jacksonville company. Also, a portion of the money CSX makes off this deal will be invested locally to enhance rail service at JaxPort and open the door for commuter rail in Jacksonville.
Hey Lake, maybe we ought to team up, join our friends at the Transportation Authority as a "Rail Task Force," and as a group.... KICK SOME BUTT! MAKE SOME WAVES! and watch JAX TAKE THE LEAD!
Whadda Ya Think?
OCKLAWAHA
Lake - Sunpass can be used on toll roads, airport parking, and a number of other means, perhaps even parking meters. All at costs far less than HSR. There is not enough need for HSR at the moment.
Use Sunpass as an example of using taxpayer dollars to pay for roads and infrastructure. No rail project in Florida has ever proven itself capable of paying for itself. The Skyway is a perfect example of a Loss Leader, LOL!
Quote from: thelakelander on March 20, 2009, 11:02:40 PM
I must say, as a taxpayer I'd rather my money go towards Sunrail than the HSR plan between Tampa and Orlando. When you break these systems down for by their cost and what they do for Florida as a whole, even at the current price tag, Sunrail wins.
Lakelander, I tend to agree with much of what you are saying, but to tolerate a higher price tag than than necessary for any project is irresponsible use of tax payer monies. Regardless of how irresponsible we might have been in the past ( tri-rail sovereign immunity), and regardless of how much we really want the project.
I'm looking for an analogy,.......maybe it's like deciding to add a bathroom to your house even though the quote you got for that project is over-priced, rather than moving because that would be even more expensive and benefit you less. Wouldn't you seriously want to rework your bathroom remodeling project, or are you going to be just fine with over-paying for that project because you want it so much?
It is ludicrous to put the tax payers on the hook for $200 million for gross negligence and intentional acts of a private company.
Let's not keep going on the path of socializing losses and privatizing profits for the benefit of private industry.
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 21, 2009, 01:14:27 AM
Lake - Sunpass can be used on toll roads, airport parking, and a number of other means, perhaps even parking meters. All at costs far less than HSR. There is not enough need for HSR at the moment.
Use Sunpass as an example of using taxpayer dollars to pay for roads and infrastructure. No rail project in Florida has ever proven itself capable of paying for itself. The Skyway is a perfect example of a Loss Leader, LOL!
Unfortunately, Sunpass and roads don't spur infill, transit oriented or sustainable development in areas where developed infrastructure already exists. Whether its an over reliance on roads or rail, there is no end all solution to transportation. The most livable places have a good mix of several transportation options.
However, I do agree that there is not a need to spend billions implementing HSR, as currently drawn up in Florida. There are cheaper options that will work better for our communities that can be implemented.
Btw, I don't know if I would classify the skyway as rail. Its a horizontal elevator. However, then again, I don't know why think public infrastructure projects should directly pay for themselves. For example, Tampa's streetcar does not directly pay for itself, but it has spurred over a billion in transit oriented development along its path. Construction aside, that's a couple thousand residents, retailers, hotels and restaurants adding millions to the tax rolls on an annual basis. I'd say that's a decent return on a 7 year old, $32 million system.
Quote from: FayeforCure on March 21, 2009, 09:07:35 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 20, 2009, 11:02:40 PM
I must say, as a taxpayer I'd rather my money go towards Sunrail than the HSR plan between Tampa and Orlando. When you break these systems down for by their cost and what they do for Florida as a whole, even at the current price tag, Sunrail wins.
Lakelander, I tend to agree with much of what you are saying, but to tolerate a higher price tag than than necessary for any project is irresponsible use of tax payer monies. Regardless of how irresponsible we might have been in the past ( tri-rail sovereign immunity), and regardless of how much we really want the project.
What should the price be? Is there a similar example of a State buying a first class quality rail line from a private business for a cheaper price in the last couple of years? At this point, its hard to say something is bad, unless there are other similar examples out there on the table to prove that its true.
QuoteI'm looking for an analogy,.......maybe it's like deciding to add a bathroom to your house even though the quote you got for that project is over-priced, rather than moving because that would be even more expensive and benefit you less. Wouldn't you seriously want to rework your bathroom remodeling project, or are you going to be just fine with over-paying for that project because you want it so much?
To determine if your quote is overpriced, you have to have a few other quotes or examples showing that it can be done cheaper. I'm not saying that the Orlando deal is not expensive. I'm just saying before we can deem it as overly expensive, there should be some existing examples on the table proving that it can be done for less.
QuoteIt is ludicrous to put the tax payers on the hook for $200 million for gross negligence and intentional acts of a private company.
Isn't this the same deal that private railroads require for other systems? Or is this Florida deal different. Do you have any examples that we can throw out in the open and discuss?
QuoteLet's not keep going on the path of socializing losses and privatizing profits for the benefit of private industry.
Definitely, not advocating that. Unfortunately, we don't have a publicly owned state rail line providing freight service to our major ports and industries throughout the state. After growing up in Central Florida, I think the freight and overpass improvements to the "S" line may be more important to the health of Florida's future than Orlando's passenger rail service.
QuoteFlorida would buy the tracks from CSX railroad for $150 million and pay $496 million more to upgrade CSX facilities, including tracks for freight trains near the proposed commuter line. At roughly $10.5 million per mile, the $646 million price tag ranks among the highest prices ever paid for rail in the United States, according to state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, who favors commuter rail but opposes this proposal.
The above paragraph caught my eye and the one sentence in particular. Is the statement true? Are there comparisons available? If true why is this so expensive?
^That's the problem. When you see a quote like that, it should be followed up with some data proving that its correct. Without the factual data, it can be passed off as a number thrown out there by someone who may be against the project for undisclosed reasons that really have nothing to do with the costs.
Inagine CSX wants 60+ miles of I-95. They would have the full power of the State to take it. Don't worry we could all just use I-75. Does anyone see the mess this would make of our highways? If so, then why does everyone want them to just walk away from their MAIN LINE?
PS: The Florida HSR plan stinks to high heavens and I WON'T support it in it's current form.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote^That's the problem. When you see a quote like that, it should be followed up with some data proving that its correct. Without the factual data, it can be passed off as a number thrown out there by someone who may be against the project for undisclosed reasons that really have nothing to do with the costs.
No doubt Lake and I agree. In order to refute statements like that we must be able to show facts to the contrary and hold the senator accountable.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 21, 2009, 09:54:15 AM
QuoteFlorida would buy the tracks from CSX railroad for $150 million and pay $496 million more to upgrade CSX facilities, including tracks for freight trains near the proposed commuter line. At roughly $10.5 million per mile, the $646 million price tag ranks among the highest prices ever paid for rail in the United States, according to state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, who favors commuter rail but opposes this proposal.
The above paragraph caught my eye and the one sentence in particular. Is the statement true? Are there comparisons available? If true why is this so expensive?
It's true, and I'll get you the pdf list of all rail project costs in the US, as soon as I find it again.
Meanwhile the one piece that is easy to fix is to have CSX be responsible for its own gross negligence and intentional acts.
QuoteCommuter rail rolls on . . . to failure?
By PAMELA HASTEROK
Dec. 22, 2008
The life or death of the rail line hinges on who's responsible for accidents. The state is buying the tracks for the passenger line from the freight giant CSX.
CSX plans to keep running freight trains on the tracks, too. If an accident occurs, CSX is demanding that neither it nor its contractors be held liable.
State transportation officials agreed. Lawmakers didn't.
They weren't pleased, either, that officials negotiated the deal in secret without the knowledge of most legislators. Unless a compromise emerges over who pays for accidents and their legal fallout, commuter rail will die next year, too.
Forget the happy talk you'll hear from local lawmakers and council members who say everything will work out.
Powerful representatives can probably pass the project through the House on sheer force of will. That won't work in the Senate.
Enough senators have enough doubts to say no, as they did before, to saddling the state with bills for an accident that is the fault of a private company.
"I don't want the state to be in a situation where it has to take care of every accident and every lawsuit when we're talking about a company that makes a lot of money," said Sen. Jim King, who represents part of Volusia County.
http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Columnists/Fresh/colFRESH122208.htm (http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Columnists/Fresh/colFRESH122208.htm)
Quote from: FayeforCure on March 20, 2009, 10:01:54 PM
Posted on Thursday, 03.19.09
This train has too much baggage
OUR OPINION: Florida should invest in commuter rail, but not SunRail project
Commuter trains can be a great way to move a lot of people from one place to another, especially when the trains are run efficiently and intersect with dense population areas. This is why the idea of a central Florida commuter line between DeLand and Poinciana, which would pass through busy Orlando, is so appealing. However, the appeal of the proposed 61-mile SunRail project under consideration in the Legislature loses much of its luster because of its high sticker price and its overly generous indemnity provisions.
Floridians, pay attention
Florida would buy the tracks from CSX railroad for $150 million and pay $496 million more to upgrade CSX facilities, including tracks for freight trains near the proposed commuter line. At roughly $10.5 million per mile, the $646 million price tag ranks among the highest prices ever paid for rail in the United States, according to state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, who favors commuter rail but opposes this proposal......
http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/story/957198.html
Here is the pdf that substantiates "the highest price ever paid for rail in the United States," .....I knew I had seen it somewhere ;)
http://www.wrongtrack4florida.com/documents/Rail_Sales_Comparison_2008-1976.pdf (http://www.wrongtrack4florida.com/documents/Rail_Sales_Comparison_2008-1976.pdf)
Quote from: stephendare on March 21, 2009, 10:52:24 AM
wrongtrackflorida.com is the source?
hmm.
stephen, I'm surprised you would be so dismissive,.......107 rail projects since 1976 are compared by HWWR, Powder Springs, GA 30127.
If you have any problems with it, the document indicates you can contact rgrandish@hwwr.com.
Don't just dismiss it off-hand.........
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 20, 2009, 11:50:33 PM
Posted on Thursday, 03.19.09
NOT MY OPINION... "But of course darling..."
Yes Florida PAY ATTENTION:
The SunRail deal requires the rail corridor's current owner, CSX Transportation, to sell the corridor to the state. CSX then would lease the corridor for some freight traffic, while also shifting additional freight (Aprox 9 daily trains) to a separate line that runs through Ocala and Lakeland. The state would buy $200 million in insurance for the SunRail line and shield CSX from most financial liability for accidents.
...
The Agreement in Principle between the Florida Department of Transportation and CSXT, announced Aug. 2, 2006 provides for the state purchase of 61.5 miles of CSXT tracks from DeLand to the Poinciana area. The agreement also gives FDOT full control over dispatch and maintenance operations along that stretch of track, to ensure the reliability of SunRail service in Central Florida. As part of final contract negotiations with CSXT, the freight hauler also will pay the state a per-car charge and annual fee for freight operations necessary to service local businesses in the Central Florida area.
OCKLAWAHA
I am confused, the linked PDF states (in red) that the Central Florida CSX deal does not include freight traffic or revenues. Yet, Ock's post says there will be lease-back for freight traffic. In the part I cut (for brevity), he expresses concerns that CSX might abandon that route entirely, resulting in no lease-back revenues along the SunRail line. Did the folks at wrongtrackflorida take that into account? It is hard to say, because their report is just the same table, sorted two ways. No explanatory text.
What sort of liability arrangements do other commuter rail operations around the country have? What is the current arrangement for Tri-Rail in south Florida? I heard a presentation by a SunRail (it wasn't called that, yet representative saying their proposed liability deal is the same as TriRail's and other CR arrangements. As said above, without comparison, it is easy to say something is bad. If it is the standard operating procedure, then we need to suck it up and proceed. If, indeed, this is something out of the ordinary, we need to go back to the negotiating table and get something reasonable.
Ock, in your scenario where CSX completely abandons the "A" line (US 17), do they have no clients along this corridor? What about the power plants in Palatka and Sanford?
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3176/2663361820_8e10111b7f.jpg)
Is my red light on? WATCH OUT FOR THIS...Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 21, 2009, 12:18:34 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 20, 2009, 11:50:33 PM
Posted on Thursday, 03.19.09
NOT MY OPINION... "But of course darling..."
Yes Florida PAY ATTENTION:
The SunRail deal requires the rail corridor's current owner, CSX Transportation, to sell the corridor to the state. CSX then would lease the corridor for some freight traffic, while also shifting additional freight (Aprox 9 daily trains) to a separate line that runs through Ocala and Lakeland. The state would buy $200 million in insurance for the SunRail line and shield CSX from most financial liability for accidents.
...
The Agreement in Principle between the Florida Department of Transportation and CSXT, announced Aug. 2, 2006 provides for the state purchase of 61.5 miles of CSXT tracks from DeLand to the Poinciana area. The agreement also gives FDOT full control over dispatch and maintenance operations along that stretch of track, to ensure the reliability of SunRail service in Central Florida. As part of final contract negotiations with CSXT, the freight hauler also will pay the state a per-car charge and annual fee for freight operations necessary to service local businesses in the Central Florida area.
OCKLAWAHA
I am confused, the linked PDF states (in red) that the Central Florida CSX deal does not include freight traffic or revenues. Yet, Ock's post says there will be leaseback for freight traffic. In the part I cut (for brevity), he expresses concerns that CSX might abandon that route entirely, resulting in no leaseback revenues along the SunRail line. Did the folks at wrongtrackflorida take that into account? It is hard to say, because their report is just the same table, sorted two ways. No explanatory text.
What sort of liability arrangements do other commuter rail operations around the country have? What is the current arrangement for Tri-Rail in south Florida? I heard a presentation by a SunRail (it wasn't called that, yet representative saying their proposed liability deal is the same as TriRail's and other CR arrangements. As said above, without comparison, it is easy to say something is bad. If it is the standard operating procedure, then we need to suck it up and proceed. If, indeed, this is something out of the ordinary, we need to go back to the negotiating table and get something reasonable.
Ock, in your scenario where CSX completely abandons the "A" line (US 17), do they have no clients along this corridor? What about the power plants in Palatka and Sanford?
Charles, sorry for the confusion... It took me a long while to sort through the legalize and try and boil it down.
The ORIGINAL PLAN said there would be a lease back. As the Sunrail deal has been revised, it now calls for a wheel charge or per Diem.
What I'm warning about is...
Wheel charge or per Diem is a typical railroad interchange between two distinct carriers. In this case it mentions Sunrail and it's operator(S).
My guess is this means Florida Central will take charge of everything from Deland to perhaps Taft Yard or even Auburndale.
CSX might or might not guarantee to keep the entire "A" line after we take complete charge of that critical 61 miles section. They might not operate it at all, or the best solution is they continue to send some freight through that route. Look what they did to the Former Seaboard main to Savannah, which now ends in pine trees at Richland, GA.. Another butcher job and the number one mistake the state has made by not getting involved was the former Wildwood (Coleman Jct) - Auburndale, route that carried half of Amtraks Miami trains.
We are NOT AMUNE to total abandonment between Deland and Palatka, and the Amtrak Route doesn't mean a damn thing to CSX... In fact they see it as the less "Amtrak Interference" the better.
KILL AMTRAK? Oh buddy they would if they could.
There are no customers between the Palatka Mills and Pecan Yard and Deland.
Draw bridges are expensive to operate and maintain, more so if they're old.
Putting it all together with a very suspect eye, I see the rails coming up between Palatka and Deland.
Amtrak rerouted to the Ocala Line and the FEC.
Some sort of cut-off (STATE OWNED AND FUNDED) between OUC - ORLANDO and Titusville/Melbourne area.
A new roundabout Amtrak route down the FEC and onto the cut-off through Orlando to Tampa.
(http://railga.com/salaband2.jpg)
The mainline south of Palatka will resemble the old Seaboard Mainline (JAX - YULEE - RICHLAND - SAVANNAH) in Georgia.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Images/FloridaCentralRailroad.jpg)
Guess who's coming to dinner? If you think I'm nuts, this photo is the Florida Central pulling freight on CSX at the ORLANDO Amtrak station. BTW, FC is now doing most of the drill work around O - Town.
I'm not saying this will happen, however the day might come when the locomotives pulling 20 car freights along Roosevelt in West Jax. might be painted red with "FLORIDA NORTHERN" on their sides... If this happens - it's over. OCKLAWAHA
The other way of looking at this is, if CSX decides they won't need the track between Auburndale and Palatka, it sets up perfectly for the state to purchase the entire "A" line between Polk and Duval Counties. After all, why pay to abandon and pull up track, if you can sell it to someone else for a profit. Imo, that would be a perfect scenerio for intercity service between Central Florida and the First Coast, as well as commuter service between Jax and Green Cove Springs.
Quote from: FayeforCure on March 21, 2009, 10:46:55 AM
Here is the pdf that substantiates "the highest price ever paid for rail in the United States," .....I knew I had seen it somewhere ;)
http://www.wrongtrack4florida.com/documents/Rail_Sales_Comparison_2008-1976.pdf (http://www.wrongtrack4florida.com/documents/Rail_Sales_Comparison_2008-1976.pdf)
Good list, although the website's purpose gives me concern that more in depth study of how they arranged their numbers may be needed. The number one thing that stands out is how we get to the $649 million number. That's a cooked up number that does not tell the whole story.
1. $203 million of that is for five FDOT railroad overpasses that were proposed before the Sunrail deal even came up. Imo, these FDOT projects should be excluded because its not CSX's responsibility to build overpasses for state highways over rail. That, alone drops the cost down to $491 million or $8.1 million per mile.
2. The actual track purchase deal is $150 million for 61 miles or $2.5 million per mile. It would be one thing if CSX were selling this line and getting out of the business, but the State wants them to remove a ton of the existing freight traffic to another corridor that does not have the track capacity in place. Since CSX is not in the business of hurting or altering their business for free, it should be expected that the state pay for capacity improvements (the remaining $296 million) necessary for the state's plans to come true.
QuoteCSX Deal Shaky As Price Tag Rises 32 Percent
By LINDSAY PETERSON of The Tampa Tribune
Published: March 26, 2008
TAMPA - The cost of the state's commuter rail deal with CSX has risen by a nearly a third, from $491 million to $649 million, according to the latest Florida Department of Transportation estimates.
"The project seems to be growing in costs every time we turn around and ask more questions," said state Sen. Mike Fasano, R-New Port Richey. He's one of several state lawmakers who are questioning whether Florida should spend so much money on railroads in a year when needed highway projects are being cut from the state budget.
The state DOT is proposing to buy 61 miles of CSX tracks in the Orlando area for commuter rail and to help CSX expand its freight operations statewide. CSX would get $150 million for the Orlando tracks. The rest of the money in the deal would be used to help CSX improve its freight rail corridors and run more trains into a massive hub the company plans to build in Polk County.
At the time the state announced the multimillion-dollar deal, in August 2006, the freight improvements included five highway overpasses that the state said would cost $59 million. That cost has gone up to $203 million, according to a November 2007 report on the project.
The report also adds $14 million in closing costs for the Orlando-area track purchase.
The increased overpass costs and the closing costs boost the $491 million total to $649 million.
The overpass costs increased when the state DOT "further defined those projects [and] the cost to construct," said Kevin Thibault of the state Department of Transportation.
full article: http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/mar/26/csx-deal-shaky-price-tag-rises-32-percent/news-metro/
Knowing this information, I wonder which of the acquisition examples listed in the PDF link were actually the same scenario and if all of their numbers (ex. adding state highway overpasses as a part of CSX's profit, etc.) have been accurately added in? Adding $203 million in already proposed state road improvements has me highly skeptical already.
With that said, I do believe costs can be cut. However, I think the area to look is the capital costs for getting the line up and running.
1. All 61 miles will be double tracked. Is that needed right a way?
2. Expensive rail cars will be purchased. Can we reduce costs by purchasing used cars?
3. Many stations have Tri-Rail style elevated platforms over the track. This means, platform aside, we're paying for two elevators (these things aren't cheap) at each station. So do we absolutely have to have elevated track crossings at stations?
If we revisit some of these issues, the cost of this system will drop dramatically.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 21, 2009, 03:28:15 PM
"The project seems to be growing in costs every time we turn around and ask more questions," said state Sen. Mike Fasano, R-New Port Richey. He's one of several state lawmakers who are questioning whether Florida should spend so much money on railroads in a year when needed highway projects are being cut from the state budget.
Who else would we expect to speak out against this? I imagine the boys in Chipley are none too happy either. New Port Richey won't benefit from this in any way until the Tampa Regional Transportation Authority cranks up regional Commuter Rail Around the Bay. That's got to be some distance away at this stage of the game. On the other hand if Senator Fasano would get on board, he could push for reconstruction of the track from Brooksville to Inverness and a rehab of the track from Tampa (Sulphur Springs Jct) to Brooksville, as well as Inverness - Dunnellon - Alachua - Starke - (and hence on the main into Jacksonville). This would reopen a complete new route to through passenger trains.
As you stated Lake, it could be to our benefit to allow or encourage CSX to bow out of the A line between JAX and AUBURNDALE alltogether. Another operator, shortline, FEC, etc... would still be turning over the traffic at either end. The only hitch in this idea is NS could be seen as an encroachment threat. They sued before the ICC long after the Seaboard - Atlantic Coast Line = Seaboard Coast Line, merger, to force open a line to Tampa for "balanced competition". It WAS fun to watch the giants take swings at each other. Quote from: thelakelander on March 21, 2009, 03:28:15 PMThe actual track purchase deal is $150 million for 61 miles or $2.5 million per mile. It would be one thing if CSX were selling this line and getting out of the business, but the State wants them to remove a ton of the existing freight traffic to another corridor that does not have the track capacity in place. Since CSX is not in the business of hurting or altering their business for free, it should be expected that the state pay for capacity improvements (the remaining $296 million) necessary for the state's plans to come true.
Forcing this issue as the State can only do is something people just don't get. This is why I said it would be "AS IF" CSX could just decide it wants I-95 between JIA and Jessup, Georgia. They'll take complete control of traffic, maintenance, etc... But don't worry, we'll just have to move all the traffic over to I-75. But the people don't want CSX to provide for capacity expansion on I-75! Too costly! Perhaps this will help some see where this Sunrail deal puts CSX. I can tell you frankly, had this happened in the late 1960's or 70's, the railroads would send Tallahassee a simple message - "F**K Y*U !"Quote from: thelakelander on March 21, 2009, 03:28:15 PM
With that said, I do believe costs can be cut. However, I think the area to look is the capital costs for getting the line up and running.
1. All 61 miles will be double tracked. Is that needed right a way?
2. Expensive rail cars will be purchased. Can we reduce costs by purchasing used cars?
3. Many stations have Tri-Rail style elevated platforms over the track. This means, platform aside, we're paying for two elevators (these things aren't cheap) at each station. So do we absolutely have to have elevated track crossings at stations?
If we revisit some of these issues, the cost of this system will drop dramatically.
Item 1. - I'd tend to agree with FDOT and Tri-County on this one. It could be done with single track and passing sidings, but commuter rail needs to be more fluid then even Skyways or Streetcars. When you have 321 passengers on board trying to beat the time clock in O-Town, and they get "HELD OUT" of some station in Longwood, because another train is running late, or the Florida Central Switcher is blocking the main... ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE. Tri-Rail tried this and it took many years of nail biting and poor performance to get Tallahassee to ante up and fix it.
This is also a density issue. In Miami - West Palm where commuting is bidirectional single track will NEVER work. In Orlando, though it's more condensed, it's job market is scattered from Disney to Daytona Beach so it too will be bidirectional but probably to a slightly lesser degree. In Jacksonville where we have two five large centers of employment. IE: Downtown, Town Center, Port, NAS, Cecil/West Side, The Jacksonville routes can all be covered with upgraded single track. Miami and Orlando will have Lineal systems, with one or two parallel trunk lines, and Jacksonville will have a hub and spokes type system with Downtown at it's core.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/2715575483_8348715ea7.jpg)
Push-Pull cab car on Tri-Rail
(http://www.trainweather.com/092304Trip-5.jpg)
Dallas RDC car on Trinity Rail Express
2. Some of the Orlando equipment is already in the State. We do not have any dedicated push-pull trains for Sunrail yet but they are available off the shelf. An interesting twist might be the Dallas RDC fleet which rumor has it, might end up here or in "O-Town", or both, due to a federally mandated "pass along" clause in most transit grants. Personally, if I a crew member, I'll take an RDC ANY DAY over the push end of a push-pull locomotive hauled train. Many transit agency's have used cars too, in fact the whole former Chicago Gallery car (stainless steel - two floors) fleet is now for sale.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2289/2151804549_102e87ea67.jpg)
Tri-Rail station with overpass.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/2315204558_530fe89b85.jpg)
At a glance, if your running to the track, which train is running backwards? Can you cross safely? After it passes? (*Answer below)
3. Elevated track pedestrian overpasses strike me as the single area where we could see a huge savings. Anywhere except the core of downtown, these are unneeded. Pompano Beach gets along fine with a huge park and ride lot and a fence down the center between the tracks. If one wants to cross you simply go to the signaled crossings at either end.
As time passes, the overheads could be an add on, or perhaps targeted for stimulus money. The reason they exist in the first place is without fail, you'll always have 5 - 10 dashing commuters running to catch the train that is already in the station. With dwell times of maybe 30 seconds, these people run across the (hopefully) empty track, whip around the train, and dive for the doors just as their about to Highball out. I observed this in Boyton Beach, pompano, Boca Raton etc... over and over again. There were many times that two trains were coming in, one from each direction and the people STILL did this, darting right in front of train after train. But strict enforcement might be cheaper then walks and elevators for starters. OCKLAWAHA
*(ANSWER) - Your dead! Sorry Charley! These trains are both coming at you, so you wait for them to pass... Notice that green signal? The train out of the photo to your right is going to scream right between these two and turn you into Hamburger.
It's ironic that the original article posted to this thread comes from Miami, where they are currently operating Tri Rail under the exact agreement they are opposing for Orlando. I wonder if they even realize this?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 21, 2009, 02:46:31 PM
The other way of looking at this is, if CSX decides they won't need the track between Auburndale and Palatka, it sets up perfectly for the state to purchase the entire "A" line between Polk and Duval Counties. After all, why pay to abandon and pull up track, if you can sell it to someone else for a profit. Imo, that would be a perfect scenerio for intercity service between Central Florida and the First Coast, as well as commuter service between Jax and Green Cove Springs.
This is how I understand it to be. One of the ideas behind the Central Florida Commuter rail project was to get freight trains and the resulting truck traffic, out of historic Winter Park.
Of course CSX should be "helped" to move over to the other rail for their freight,......no question about that, but are the "capacity improvements" at $296 overpriced? I honestly don't know.
As far as the $203 million for "five FDOT railroad overpasses that were proposed before the Sunrail deal even came up" per thelekalander,.........is that even true? It was my understanding that the 5 overpasses are directly related to moving freight traffic out of Winter Park, to the Lakeland route. So this cost definitely needs to be included. After all it was supposed to save us money to use existing track, rather than build new track,...........that being said, there are costs associated with procuring the use of existing track. To not include all associated costs would be deceitful.
Which is exactly why the costs keep growing,..........many of the associated costs were "intentionally" withheld, to sell people on this project. So that's why what started out to be a $150 million purchase price, ended up being a $640 cost to the state. It's a budgeting trick I'm very familiar with, as I budgeted for Medical equipment that required associated remodeling of facilities, a cost that would be "included" or not depending on our audience.
Meantime we've got some more increases coming our way:
QuoteBids for SunRail exceed maximum set by state
Dan Tracy | Sentinel Staff Writer
February 24, 2009
DeLAND - The cost of the planned commuter-rail train through Central Florida appears to have gone up by close to $7 million.
The Florida Department of Transportation on Monday opened three bids for the project known as SunRail and discovered that the lowest proposed price was about $165 million to prepare the proposed 61.5-mile line to begin operations in mid-2011.
Florida DOT, overseeing the startup of SunRail, previously had set a maximum bid of $158 million for what is known as the "design/build" phase of the venture.
All three bidders told the state three weeks ago that they could not do the work for that price, prompting FDOT to seek new proposals, but only after dropping some tasks.
FDOT spokesman Steve Olson would not speculate on whether his agency would accept the apparent low bid.
It was submitted by Archer Western Contractors/Rail Works of Jacksonville, a partnership of the Parsons Transportation Group and TransSystems.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/volusia/orl-newbids2409feb24,0,1083313.story (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/volusia/orl-newbids2409feb24,0,1083313.story)
BTW, thelakelander, you make some excellent points on ways to save. I just added another possibility above.
What I don't think is the right approach is to have a for-profit have free reign to "dictate" cost estimates they are comfortable with at the expense of the Florida taxpayer. It should be fair and equitable, and I have no way of knowing if that is the case. It might be, but given all the complaints,.......and people calling it a CSX sweetheart deal, it does raise some question.
I'm absolutely shocked and suspicious when I hear a key person use this comment: "If you pee on CSX’s parade in Central Florida, do you think they’re going to cooperate with other entities?"
Why don't we just absolutely make sure, that we are not over-paying. Remember, it's also the way we can get more people on board to actually support this commuter rail project. As it is many are calling it a boondoggle.
The only way to know if you're overpaying is to take a realistic unbiased view at what we have before us and evaluate this deal with similar deals made in other regions. At this point, it does not appear that the opposition has done this.
QuoteAs far as the $203 million for "five FDOT railroad overpasses that were proposed before the Sunrail deal even came up" per thelekalander,.........is that even true? It was my understanding that the 5 overpasses are directly related to moving freight traffic out of Winter Park, to the Lakeland route. So this cost definitely needs to be included. After all it was supposed to save us money to use existing track, rather than build new track,...........that being said, there are costs associated with procuring the use of existing track. To not include all associated costs would be deceitful.
Ocala (one of the cities where they will be constructed) has been asking for rail overpasses for years, since the S-Line splits their city in half. This deal just gives the state the opportunity to go ahead and get these long needed road improvements funded and completed. However, make no mistake about it, regardless of whether commuter rail happens or not, its not the railroad's responsibility to construct FDOT road overpasses.
QuoteAlthough the Florida Department of Transportation says the $25 million overpass was always in its plans, Marion County transportation officials say requests for such a bridge went unheeded - and unfunded - until FDOT and CSX Transportation started discussing a commuter rail line from DeLand through Orlando and on to Poinciana, just southwest of Kissimmee.
full article: http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=24892
Also, this article had a little information on project's components:
QuoteThe proposed $1.2 billion, taxpayer-funded deal that critics assail as too complicated and murky is drawing greater scrutiny as state lawmakers try to plug a budget gap approaching $2.5 billion.
As it stands, in addition to the $150 million purchase of A-line tracks, the state also would dole out another $491 million broken down as follows: $23 million to relocate the Taft Rail Yard in Orlando to Winter Haven, where the CSX Intermodal Logistics Center is being built; $9 million for an access road to the ILC; $198 million for freight capacity improvements on the S-line; $209 million for five overpasses, including Southwest 17th Street, along the S-line; and $52 million for other freight-line improvements around the state.
But another $615 million is also associated with the project.
That amount includes laying extra track alongside the existing A-line to accommodate commuter-train traffic, 17 stations, rail cars and other rail improvements. The state will pay 25 percent of those costs; local governments within the four counties that directly benefit from the new commuter line - Orange, Osceola, Seminole and Volusia - will pay 25 percent; and the federal government will pick up the rest.
Yet those figures do not include other associated costs such as operations, insurance and maintenance, critics say.
a few notes....
1. Of the 5 overpasses, one was already constructed by last year and another one will be under construction this year....regardless of the CSX/Sunrail deal....so I agree with Lake...these should not be listed in the cost
2. TriRail finished double tracking in 2007...which allowed for more trains and better on-time rates...the net result, combined with the rise in gas prices, was an increase in ridership of over 25%.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 21, 2009, 07:55:09 PM
Ocala (one of the cities where they will be constructed) has been asking for rail overpasses for years, since the S-Line splits their city in half. This deal just gives the state the opportunity to go ahead and get these long needed road improvements funded and completed. However, make no mistake about it, regardless of whether commuter rail happens or not, its not the railroad's responsibility to construct FDOT road overpasses.
QuoteAlthough the Florida Department of Transportation says the $25 million overpass was always in its plans, Marion County transportation officials say requests for such a bridge went unheeded - and unfunded - until FDOT and CSX Transportation started discussing a commuter rail line from DeLand through Orlando and on to Poinciana, just southwest of Kissimmee.
full article: http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=24892
I think you misunderstood what I said. I never said it was the railroad's responsibility to build overpasses. But clearly nobody was going to get overpasses from FDOT until the commuter rail forced freight traffic increases through Lakeland, thereby making the overpasses "associated" costs for removing freight traffic from Winter Park. If the freight traffic had not been moved, those overpasses would not have been built or even been deemed as urgent or necessary. That's what's meant by associated costs. They are associated to the commuter rail project being able to use "existing rail."
Based on the fact that they are associated costs, they should be included in the costs to the state of using existing rail for the commuter rail project.
QuoteAs far as the $203 million for "five FDOT railroad overpasses that were proposed before the Sunrail deal even came up" per thelekalander,.........is that even true?
Believe me when I tell you that EVERY crossing in the USA would be closed tomorrow if the railroads had that power. In 99% of the cases the railroads were in place long before a State or Federal road network started encroaching on their private property. Then you have the safety, suit issues, and some idiot that thinks going around a gate is Mas Macho!
In the Southwest USA "Uncle Pete" aka: Union Pacific, is closing crossings and giving big bucks to small towns willing to close 3 out of 4 crossings and consolidate them into one grand, GATED crossing, pending an overpass. I know this because I was an OK City Councilman, when little Kingfisher got $$ that rebuilt a golf course, mini-train, ball fields, and an aquatic center.
Nationally the railroads and most state DOT's as well as much of the highway industry have banded together to kill all crossings. Locally the FEC has been on a war path to overpass, Race Track Road, and Sunbeam. Hendrix and San Marco have been on the States "Things to do list" since 1920... When South Jacksonville changed it's name from "OKLAHOMA!"
But what do we expect, this is JACKSONVILLE. Just as an aside, did you know the Spanish Government surveyed the Intercoastal waterway canal between the San Pablo River and Tolomato River in 1729? Well, like I said this is Jacksonville, so when the USA took charge and finally finished the canal and channel down the entire eastern seaboard of the USA guess what part was dead LAST to be dug? YUP! In 1912 the San Pablo - Tolomato gap was cut and the waterway declaired open. QuoteIt was my understanding that the 5 overpasses are directly related to moving freight traffic out of Winter Park, to the Lakeland route. So this cost definitely needs to be included. After all it was supposed to save us money to use existing track, rather than build new track,...........that being said, there are costs associated with procuring the use of existing track. To not include all associated costs would be deceitful.
Faye, I think these articles have everyone confused. There will be NO NEW RAILROAD BUILT. NONE. At least for 5 years (a grace period given Lakeland to get the freight trains out of town) before we hopefully see a rebuild of the former Seaboard Wildwood (Coleman Jct) - Auburndale line. This will allow trains from the north to once again pass through JAX - Ocala - Wildwood - Auburndale - Winter Haven - West Palm - Miami.
Here is where it gets really sticky and the public doesn't have a clue.
Did you know when CSX abandoned that section of mainline in Central Florida our State DOT had every opportunity to take it and put it in a railbank status, holding it for future use. It was even in the State rail plan, which until now has been a paper tiger on all fronts.
It must have been another back slapping Tallahassee morning when the news came that the rails and ties were being removed and Amtraks Miami trains would be sent on a long detour from Wildwood, through Lakeland, and then East to Auburndale, in order to get back south to Miami. I can just imagine!
"Hey Louie, ya knows dat railroad ober in Jacksonville is boosting the tracks down in Wildwood"
"What are you talking, Yeah Vinnie, I seen dat one comin'."
"Dees slow old Southern railroads don't like da taxes; now the Penn Central! Now there was a RAILROAD!"
...and so it goes. We simply taxed the hell out of anything on the ground, and taxed the ground under it too! Much of the Railroad abandonments in Florida could be landed right on the steps of Tallahassee.
Bottom line Faye, there is NO WAY to Lakeland from Winter Park except over the current CSX "A" line, so while we'll see capacity increases, we won't see any "new railroads". My biggest fear is we'll see more track miles and less route miles.
Somebody needs to stick a plunger up FDOTS ass and pull their collective heads out. As a STATE DOT, they should be after "Obama Money" right now for the following Short List:
First of course is the line described above, the huge hole in the former mainline between Auburndale and Wildwood.
Reconstruction of the entire branchline (PHASE ONE) From: Starke - Alachua - Dunnellon - Inverness - Brooksville - Sulfur Springs Jct. - Tampa/St. Pete. There is currently a gap between Dunnellon and Brooksville. If any of you want to look up the history, this was once the TAMPA NORTHERN on the South end and SEABOARD AIR LINE on the North.
It would give us a whole new West coast route for freight or passengers and a shortcut to St. Pete/Clearwater.
(PHASE TWO) reconstruct the former ACL mainline from MAXVILLE (just west of Baldwin) South to Alachua.
Another hole in the system we are going to start feeling is the almost new gap between Tavares and Wildwood. The Florida Central operates this former Seaboard line from Tavares - Apopka - Orlando. There is no reason why this shouldn't be in the SunRail system too. It would also offer Amtrak an alternate route into Orlando via Ocala and Gainesville (Waldo).
One last thought. Don't discount the wheel charges or Per Diem on freight cars. Railroads are very cash intensive with operating ratios that would send bankers out the upper floor windows. It's not at all unusual for a railroad pulling in 10 Billion dollars a year, to show a profit of a few million! OUCH! In fact there are even some in the industry that want the government to take over all trackage and create open access for freight companies like CSX, FEC etc... Something I'd fight tooth and nail... Anyone want to see what this will get us? I'll send in some photos of "my" railroad in COLOMBIA! OCKLAWAHA
Keep in mind DOCKERY who fights SunRail has a husband that wants to fund Central Florida HSR! Conflict of interest anyone?
Quote from: FayeforCure on March 21, 2009, 10:17:47 PMI think you misunderstood what I said. I never said it was the railroad's responsibility to build overpasses. But clearly nobody was going to get overpasses from FDOT until the commuter rail forced freight traffic increases through Lakeland, thereby making the overpasses "associated" costs for removing freight traffic from Winter Park. If the freight traffic had not been moved, those overpasses would not have been built or even been deemed as urgent or necessary. That's what's meant by associated costs. They are associated to the commuter rail project being able to use "existing rail."
Based on the fact that they are associated costs, they should be included in the costs to the state of using existing rail for the commuter rail project.
I'm sure, the residents of Ocala deemed them as urgent and necessary, considering the tracks slice through that community's heart. Nevertheless, regardless of how its spinned (yes, the rail deal helped speed up their funding, for good reason of course), they were still already planned road projects. Its disingenuous to add +$200 million in FDOT road projects to the commuter rail deal and then claim that its the most expensive rail deal in history.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 21, 2009, 04:57:55 PM
Item 1. - I'd tend to agree with FDOT and Tri-County on this one. It could be done with single track and passing sidings, but commuter rail needs to be more fluid then even Skyways or Streetcars. When you have 321 passengers on board trying to beat the time clock in O-Town, and they get "HELD OUT" of some station in Longwood, because another train is running late, or the Florida Central Switcher is blocking the main... ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE. Tri-Rail tried this and it took many years of nail biting and poor performance to get Tallahassee to ante up and fix it.
This is also a density issue. In Miami - West Palm where commuting is bidirectional single track will NEVER work. In Orlando, though it's more condensed, it's job market is scattered from Disney to Daytona Beach so it too will be bidirectional but probably to a slightly lesser degree. In Jacksonville where we have two five large centers of employment. IE: Downtown, Town Center, Port, NAS, Cecil/West Side, The Jacksonville routes can all be covered with upgraded single track. Miami and Orlando will have Lineal systems, with one or two parallel trunk lines, and Jacksonville will have a hub and spokes type system with Downtown at it's core.
I have a few questions. Maybe I'm off base, but isn't Tri-Rail's situation somewhat different from Orlando's?
a. The Tri-Rail track is still a mainline for CSX to access customers in South Florida (a metro 4 times larger than Jax and twice as large as Orlando). A good portion of CSX's through traffic will be shifted from the A, to the S line. South Florida did not have this option.
b. Didn't CSX trains still have priority over Tri-Rail trains? On the other hand, doesn't the Orlando deal give commuter rail trains priority over freight during the day?
c. Sunrail is proposed to run every 30 minutes during peak hours and every two hours off peak. They don't expect frequencies to increase until after the first 20 years of operation. Doesn't Tri-Rail have more frequent service?
d. The A line is already double tracked from Winter Park to just north of Holden Avenue.
e. Sunrail's first phase is 31 miles from Debary to Orlando (Sand Lake Road).
Given this information, wouldn't they be able to get away without complete double tracking initially, if the expense became an issue that could kill the entire deal? If this were the case, would service be negatively impacted in the same fashion that Tri-Rail's was initially?
QuoteI have a few questions. Maybe I'm off base, but isn't Tri-Rail's situation somewhat different from Orlando's?
Off base or out of the box? Nothing wrong with that Lakelander.Quotea. The Tri-Rail track is still a mainline for CSX to access customers in South Florida (a metro 4 times larger than Jax and twice as large as Orlando). A good portion of CSX's through traffic will be shifted from the A, to the S line. South Florida did not have this option
.
First Tri-Rail like Metro-Link in Los Angeles are not designed as Commuter Operations, rather they are Mitigation Measures that "became" Commuter Railroads. This makes their make-up, funding and operation rather unique.
Tri-Rail was formed in the mid 1980's when the state purchased Right-of-Way from CSX for I-95 construction mitigation.
But as we have so often pointed out on MJ, even with all the new expressways, the gridlock on the highways only got worse - MUCH WORSE.
In the 1990's Tri-Rail applied for a full funding grant from the FTA, at that time they were operating 28 trains daily, on a very unpredicitable schedule. The grant was awarded in 2000, and Tri-Rail added:
43.5 miles of new Double Track
New upgraded Signaling
11 new bridges
rebuilt 13 bridges
modified 10 stations
bought 5 diesel locomotives
2 new cab cars
grade crossing improvements
In March 2006, most projects were completed and the schedule went to 40 daily trains. In 2007 the agency finished the New River bridge replacement, and was able to expand to 50 trains. When gas prices spiked ridership soared to 4 million passengers in 2008, up 22% from 2007.
The South Florida Regional Transportation Authority now has control, but no dedicated funding source. The 4 counties each pay $4 Million a year for the services, and fully expect more service on weekends and nights. Trouble is the new budget has 3 of 4 of them saying they'll go back to pre SFRTA funding levels of $1.5 Million.
Lobby as they will, Florida has turned a deaf ear to every idea advanced.
The Orlando "buy-out" deal could be just the thing Tri-Rail needs to survive and thrive. South Florida cannot add more roads and even if they could they couldn't afford the land they'd sit on.
Without dedicated funding Tri-Rail couldn't even qualify for that grant it got, under todays rules. The Orlando deal must pass to start unscrambling the grid lock in the "heads" of Tallahassee. Quoteb. Didn't CSX trains still have priority over Tri-Rail trains? On the other hand, doesn't the Orlando deal give commuter rail trains priority over freight during the day?
When Tri-Rail started they had priority, but as the agency matured the custom of Amtrak and passengers as 1st class trains and freight as 2nd has taken hold. More freight has been shifted to the night and that's pretty much the same deal as Orlando is shooting for. We will not be so lucky, as we have MANY times more freight trains then the Orlando and Miami areas combined. So working out operating schedules and where we need double track for a lighter density line then either of the other cities, is going to be a tough sell.
Quotec. Sunrail is proposed to run every 30 minutes during peak hours and every two hours off peak. They don't expect frequencies to increase until after the first 20 years of operation. Doesn't Tri-Rail have more frequent service?
That's pretty close to Tri-Rail, last trip when I went to Pompano, they were running about every 25 minutes peak. They'll be wrong about the increase, it's coming like it or not! Quoted. The A line is already double tracked from Winter Park to just north of Holden Avenue.
The REAL bottleneck will be Sanford - Longwood, and Altamonte - Maitland, this is where I see no escape. If your ever in Maitland, grab a photo of the line at the Maitland Avenue crossing, WHERE do you put a second track? Quotee. Sunrail's first phase is 31 miles from Debary to Orlando (Sand Lake Road).
Given this information, wouldn't they be able to get away without complete double tracking initially, if the expense became an issue that could kill the entire deal? If this were the case, would service be negatively impacted in the same fashion that Tri-Rail's was initially?
Yes, Tri-Rail has a complete second mainline option with the Florida East Coast Route. As we post this all parties are in talks to put some of Tri-Rail on the FEC (closer to the Beach and central cities) which will tend to free up some space on the CSX line. It could also turn out that the whole of Tri-Rail's trackage ends up in complete state control like the Orlando deal proposes.
As for the double tracking, with this kind of density, and more so, the bi-directional commutes. it's almost a must. Certainly if it becomes a deal breaker, part of something is better then nothing at all.
Think of any Bi-Directional traffic in Jacksonville's rail corridors?
Maybe some JTB - Downtown, or Downtown - NAS/Yukon... anyone else have some? OCKLAWAHA
Downtown - St. Augustine?
Maybe, so but I really don't think any of our Bi-directional area's actually backs up traffic in two directions. I've seen Miami completely stopped, ditto for LA. BTW, did y'all know Miami Metro - South Florida, is 3Rd most dense city in the USA behind NYC, and LA.
OCKLAWAHA
Besides your first two, Ock, along I-95, it is pretty bidirectional* between I-295 and Butler.
* don't tell certain groups we have bidirectionality going on out on the highways! :o
There are times when I-95 backs up in both areas, between DT and JTB, during afternoon rush hour. However, we should not compare it to what Miami faces. Because of the size difference and landscape, South Florida is a completely different animal. Our true peers (size wise) are second tier cities like Nashville, Louisville, Memphis, Charlotte, Providence, etc.
QuoteBTW, did y'all know Miami Metro - South Florida, is 3Rd most dense city in the USA behind NYC, and LA.
Close, but not exactly.
San Francisco, New Orleans (before Katrina numbers), San Jose, Las Vegas, Honolulu are other urban areas that have higher density levels than South Florida.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas
Wonder which is correct? My density data came from the Feb 2009 issue of Progressive Railroading Magazine.
I by no means would suggest we are like Miami (thank God), just wanted everyone to understand where double track is going to be critical, when running passenger on passenger train, as opposed to mixed traffic.
With the right deal, Freight can always "Go in the Hole" and let a passenger train slide past. Properly planned and executed like the Florida East Coast operates, long passing tracks should fix Jacksonville's needs for many years to come.
Only the thick bi-directional area's: JTB - DT, and maybe DT - NAS/YUKON - OP are the only places where we need double track.
FEC already has it. The "S" line North or West of town won't need it, and the CSX "A" line on the Southwest side was double tracked from DT to South of Yukon until about 1965. There would be no need to buy new Right-of-way on the CSX "A" line, if we needed double track.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 22, 2009, 04:36:03 PM
* don't tell certain groups we have bidirectionality going on out on the highways! :o
Oh the humanity, nasty highways!
LOLA...by THE KINKS
I met her in a club down in old soho
Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like cherry-cola [lp version:
Coca-cola]
C-o-l-a cola
She walked up to me and she asked me to dance
I asked her her name and in a dark brown voice she said lola
L-o-l-a lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola
Well Im not the worlds most physical guy
But when she squeezed me tight she nearly broke my spine
Oh my lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola
Well Im not dumb but I cant understand
Why she walked like a woman and talked like a man
Oh my lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola
Well we drank champagne and danced all night
Under electric candlelight
She picked me up and sat me on her knee
And said dear boy wont you come home with me
Well Im not the worlds most passionate guy
But when I looked in her eyes well I almost fell for my lola
Lo-lo-lo-lo lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola
Lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola lo-lo-lo-lo lola OCKLAWAHA HEE HEE HEE!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 22, 2009, 05:21:29 PM
Wonder which is correct? My density data came from the Feb 2009 issue of Progressive Railroading Magazine.
The US Census Bureau.
Here is a list of the densest urban areas in the US and Canada:
1. 7,068.3 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana
2. 6,835.2 Toronto, ON3. 6,130.4 San Francisco-Oakland
4. 5,914.1 San Jose
5. 5,309.3 New York-Newark
6. 5,101.6 New Orleans
7. 4,786.1 Montreal, QC8. 4,659.8 Honolulu
9. 4,597.1 Las Vegas
10. 4,459.7 Oxnard, CA
11. 4,407.4 Miami
93. 2,149.2 Jacksonville
http://www.demographia.com/db-uauscan.htm
QuoteI by no means would suggest we are like Miami (thank God), just wanted everyone to understand where double track is going to be critical, when running passenger on passenger train, as opposed to mixed traffic.
In terms of density and landscape, which is what I was referring to, I would not mind Jax being like them. At this point, they have no choice but to embrace infill development and mass transit. We're still in the fight of our lives to teach our elected leaders that sprawl is bad.
It's pretty weird that a magazine with such respect would be so far off, I wonder if they are accounting for this in some other way? Oh well, it is what it is.
OXNARD! Oh cripes, the Garden Spot of the World!
... and I too wish we were more like San Francisco, Portland or Seattle, sadly though, we are more like Mobile and POST KATRINA New Orleans. In fact it's once again wearing on me quite a bit, might have to bug out to better climes if we don't see some positive signs soon. Damn, Oklahoma City has left Jacksonville in it's dust!
Bring on Commuter Rail, BRT, Streetcars and Finish the Damned Skyway, and we might see a solid influx of new faces and investments.
...Oh did I say POST KATRINA New Orleans? Sorry about that Jacksonville, but at least the Big Easy has excellent transit, and the organist on the Natchez plays "Free Bird" on the Steam Colipee. So yeah, New Orleans is ahead of us too.
OCKLAWAHA
Question: In commuter train systems that carry the majority passengers one direction during a morning or evening rush hour, what happens to the train when it reaches its destination? Does it just turn around and run back to the the beginning of the line empty or with a couple passengers?
I guess that is a scenario where bi-directional commutes benefit the system.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1099/3269601225_5ba9c3667c.jpg)
Jason, this is one of the beauty's of RAIL over any other mode. Think about this, "THE ABILITY TO EN-TRAIN"
That said, what would my crystal ball say?
Let's start and say we have a 22 car fleet of RDC cars, each is self propelled and can operate as an independent train. If they are coupled into trains of 2 or more cars, they still save money because the engines on all but the lead car are running at 50% or less of their capacity.
Now in this "vision" we have active commuter rail lines from St. Augustine, Green Cove Springs, Macclenny and Fernandina Beach.
As you pull into your park and ride lot in St. Augustine, you see 5 RDC cars spotted south of the station. There is maybe a 100' gap between each. One by one, every 30 minutes an RDC "Train" heads to Jacksonville.
Within an hour and a half you end up with 3 cars sitting at the Jacksonville Terminal. The same thing is going on on each of the legs of the Commuter Rail line. The Terminal which has "my" 9 track yard has no problem taking in the RDC's and shutting them down. Needless to say within a couple of hours you have 20 RDC cars downtown at the Terminal. In the afternoon the parades simply reverse direction and head back out...
This is overly simplistic and would not be the optimum operating scenario. Why? Because some passengers need to get OUT of downtown or the close in neighborhoods and go towards St. Augustine, Nocatee, Avenues, etc... At this point we would get some bidirectional traffic, including those that leave downtown on each of the 4 routes 20 minutes or so after arrival.
(http://www.bcoolidge.com/Amtrak_71-75_Pix/Black-Hawk_RDCs-Leaving-Union-Station_4_74_w.jpg)
Now we have 16 RDC's shut down in the yard and 4 RDC's running a longer headway, daytime service. Every 1.5 hours the little cluster pulls into the station from 4 directions, waits 20 minutes, then right back out again.
The schedule is planned so by 4 PM all 20 units are in downtown. For the next 3 hours they depart for St. Augustine and the other 3 end point cities, every 30 minutes. Doing the math, it's obvious that even during this rush, there will be at least some cars doing the back and forth a couple of times.
Any time that demand warrants, Say a Jaguar Game... We simply run them in trains of 2 or 3 cars. If one end of the line has a need for more seats, we can add or subtract cars at will. It's not at all usual to see 3 Metro-Link trains all coupled together. Engine + 5 coaches, another engine + 4 coaches, another engine + 4 coaches...etc. all running in one train. Only the first 5 are "LIVE" the others are called "Deadheads" and the movement is called a "Deadhead Movement." It can be used any time trains stack up where you don't want them. For example a couple of months ago I saw a train on the CSX by Evergreen Cemetery on North Main Street of 30 engines!
Try this with 5 buses and ONE DRIVER!
In transportation the rule of thumb is Labor is 75% of the costs and the farebox will cover 25% of the operation expenses. For those that want to scream "Damn Ocklawaha and his Socialist Passenger Trains..." I have a message for you... How much of the expansion or maintenance expenses did the "farebox" on JTB recover last year?
OCKLAWAHA
Great info Ock!! You are a wealth of railroading knowledge.
Are the RDC's the most cost effective form of commuter service or would DMU's run a bit cheaper on the same system?
Nice looking BUDD cars!
Will state's deal with CSX be a train wreck?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z276/fayeforcure/CSXtrainwreck.jpg)
DOUG ENGLE/STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER A National Transportation Safety Board inspector makes his way over a fallen tree near one of the Amtrak passenger cars at the site of a derailment near Crescent City on April 19, 2002.
By Bill Thompson
Staff writer
Published: Monday, March 30, 2009 at 6:30 a.m.
Last Modified: Sunday, March 29, 2009 at 10:32 p.m.
Seven years ago, a speeding northbound Amtrak passenger train derailed in Putnam County, killing four people and injuring more than 140 of the nearly 500 riders on board.
Investigators determined the April 2002 accident was caused by shoddy maintenance and improper stabilization of a section of the tracks, owned by CSX Transportation.
As a result, Amtrak paid $12 million in damages related to that crash near Crescent City, according to an October 2004 article by The New York Times. The article noted that some claims were still outstanding two and a half years later.
The Times also reported that CSX did not pay one dime, even though the multibillion-dollar company was responsible.
Instead Amtrak, which received more than $1 billion in government subsidies, bore the full financial burden for the mishap because Amtrak had agreed to shield CSX from liability in exchange for the right to use the freight hauler's tracks, a policy known as indemnification.
In fact, The Times found, Amtrak had doled out more than $186 million in accident claims over 20 years because of its indemnification agreements with CSX and other freight-train companies around the country - even though those accidents were not Amtrak's fault.
The state of Florida is poised to do the same thing.
A bill now being considered in Tallahassee would make the state "solely responsible" for compensating victims of almost all accidents along 61 miles of track that the state wants to use for the Deland-to-Orlando commuter rail known as SunRail.
That bill would also assemble the framework for future deals the FDOT might make with freight operators to introduce commuter rail to other metropolitan areas such as Tampa and Jacksonville. It has passed two state Senate committees and will receive further consideration from state senators this week.
Although SunRail's opponents tout scenarios such as the Crescent City tragedy as consequences that taxpayers can ill afford, the measure's proponents suggest such fears are overblown.
The state's plan, commuter rail advocates say, is little more than the "no-fault" insurance carried by every motorist in Florida.
In addition, they say, Central Florida is just conforming to terms found in other parts of the country. In South Florida, for example, the FDOT has likewise immunized the freight company in case of certain accidents on the TriRail commuter line.
Rather than worrying about letting CSX off the hook for an accident, proponents argue, the public should worry about letting CSX walk away from the commuter rail deal.
The liability protection is necessary, advocates maintain, because the state cannot afford to build its own commuter tracks.
And defeating this provision will prove costly in other ways: thousands of jobs eliminated, millions of dollars of infrastructure improvements and federal aid scuttled, and the prospect of relieving congestion along Interstate 4 forever killed.
Under the agreement CSX will shift many of its freight trains along the proposed commuter line between DeLand and Poinciana, near Kissimmee, to tracks running through communities in the heart of the state, including Ocala and Gainesville.
CSX, however, may continue to operate its freight trains on the commuter tracks during those trains' off-hours.
One clear scenario where taxpayers would not be held liable in an accident is when only one train - a privately owned freight train - is involved.
Similarly, the FDOT will assume responsibility for accidents and damages that involve just a commuter-rail train.
If a commuter train and a freight train are involved in a mishap, taxpayers would pay for the damages for everyone except the freight hauler and its employees, even if they are to blame.
Under the bill, any freight train operator, including CSX, that travels on SunRail's tracks is protected "against any liability, cost and expense" related to accidents, "regardless of circumstances or cause." The freight train company would only be responsible for its people and equipment in such an instance.
And while the bill says the freight company and the state would split the cost of damages outside the rail corridor, opponents contend the corridor is so broadly defined in the measure that the language is meaningless.
Alexis Yarbrough, the FDOT's general counsel, defended the provisions as being the same as those the state drew up for TriRail, which has served the Miami area since 1989.
She also pointed out that CSX and other freight companies and the state will share responsibility for damages from accidents outside commuter rail corridors.
Moreover, CSX seeks this indemnification to create a "level playing field," Yarbrough said, because FDOT is utilizing the tracks for people who wouldn't otherwise be on them.
And in case of an accident the language of the bill helps speed up legal wrangling that could be drawn out by determining who is responsible for paying what, Yarbrough said.
Still, the Crescent City tragedy echoes one of a number of what-if incidents developed by state Sen. Paula Dockery, the most outspoken critic of the CSX agreement in the Legislature.
Dockery, R-Lakeland, created that list to highlight the state's vulnerability - an issue she utilized last year to sink the commuter rail plan.
This year, however, she lost a key ally because commuter-rail proponents dropped a key provision.
The state's trial lawyers had supported Dockery a year ago because the FDOT, which seeks to hire a contractor to run the commuter rail, wanted to put those workers under the state's sovereign-immunity umbrella.
Sovereign immunity is an age-old legal principle that says the government cannot be sued for its acts. Florida does allow that in some cases, but under state law victims can only recoup $100,000 per person and $200,000 for each incident.
The Florida Justice Association, the lobbying arm of the trial lawyers, is officially neutral on the SunRail legislation this year because sovereign immunity was stripped, said Paul Jess, the group's general counsel.
Jess said the group eased off once lawmakers understood their concerns that employees of a private, for-profit company should not be afforded the same protection for negligence as state employees.
The bill does contain a provision for the state to carry a $200-million insurance policy to protect against accidents. It will cost taxpayers an estimated $2 million a year.
In the Florida House, which is expected to easily pass the commuter-rail bill, Speaker Larry Cretul, R-Ocala, recently said since the removal of the sovereign immunity provision seemed to mollify the trial lawyers, the bill seems better than last year's.
Sen. Lee Constantine, an Altamonte Springs Republican who co-sponsored the bill, expressed frustration with the warnings over the liability language.
Calling it the "latest, greatest" excuse offered by opponents to reject the FDOT-CSX deal, Constantine maintained that he had successfully addressed other concerns - such as the sovereign immunity plank and concerns by Lakeland residents about increased freight train traffic through their community - and still had not gained any votes toward passage of his bill.
And, he noted of the liability clause, "If I solve that issue, I still wouldn't gain one vote."
Constantine said killing the bill would threaten a "tremendous" economic development and employment opportunity, while jeopardizing a cost-effective alternative to adding more lanes to I-4.
"We've had TriRail for 20 years under the same conditions and it hasn't caused a problem down there," he said. "We have to do this indemnity, or they will walk. I don't see what's the big hoopla."
Others do.
State Chief Financial Officer Alex Sink remains troubled by the liability provision and the state's exposure in a mishap. She told reporters at a recent appearance in Lakeland that she is concerned that CSX would be excused from all risk and that the state would not be able to find an insurer willing to underwrite a $200-million policy.
Beyond those points, Dockery argues that the state is agreeing to forever indemnify CSX, and any company that might buy their tracks later, with no guarantee commuter rail will ever exist.
"It goes to who is injured, and who is injured is on us, for whatever reason - unless they are on the freight train," Dockery said. "We're going to absolve all the liability from CSX."
http://www.ocala.com/article/20090330/ARTICLES/903301006/1402/NEWS?Title=Will-state-s-deal-with-CSX-be-a-train-wreck-
Seems to me that if an accident is caused by neglect of CSX rail maintenance, CSX should not be shielded from the financial consequences. That's simply too much risk to bear for the tax-payer, if a for-profit company tries to maximize its profit by skimpimg on rail maintenance.
Just wondering. Who will be in charge of dispatching trains for Sunrail or maintaining the line? The largest difference I see between the Amtrak example and Sunrail, is that the State of Florida will own the line, not CSX.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 09, 2009, 05:39:45 PM
Just wondering. Who will be in charge of dispatching trains for Sunrail or maintaining the line? The largest difference I see between the Amtrak example and Sunrail, is that the State of Florida will own the line, not CSX.
This is true, Florida will own AND control the line. Amtrak must be dispatched over member roads by the track owners themselves. It would be next to impossible to have an Amtrak dispatcher trying to send a fast train down the FEC while an FEC dispatcher was doing the same thing with 3 freight trains.
My understanding is this is an outright takeover. SUNRAIL will control, dispatch etc... I'm willing to bet the MJ DOLLAR that within two years of the start up, Florida Central is handling all Freight on the line and CSX leases out the "A" north to near Jacksonville, or seeks an outright abandonment South of Palatka. OCKLAWAHA
The North Florida TPO passed a resolution of support yesterday, supporting in principal the central Florida commuter rail deal. The most interesting thing was to see Commissioner Conkey from Clay County speaking up on the issue. Clay County really wants the mass transit! and they need it.
Its encouraging to see one of our suburban communities supporting alternative transportation options. With the longest daily commutes in the State, I can see why they want mass transit.
I believe Clay County has already purchased land for a commuter rail station near on 220 near Flemming Island in hopes of the future.
I saw a few conceptual renderings of this at a meeting I attended last year. Kudos to the Clay County government for planning ahead.
QuoteIts encouraging to see one of our suburban communities supporting alternative transportation options. With the longest daily commutes in the State, I can see why they want mass transit.
Yes - Great one - This works in Orlando, long commute times. Get people out of their cars on I-4, especially if they are headed to South of town or Lake Mary or any one of 5 main exits off of I-4 north of downtown. Rail is perfect for this need.
But we do not have the density problems yet here in Jax. If we added tolls just inside of the I-295 loop, we would have fewer people inside the beltway - and people who use 295 would love all those folks from Canada and New York, sharing the Buckman with them, but it would be a good idea, to me. I'd pay for a toll road that had fewer people on it and was quicker from A to B. After all, that is what the Florida Turnpike is all about.
Question: Longest commute in the state?
Answer: Clay County
There are no congestion issues locally. This has to be a mirage.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/westside_tour/DCP_9297.jpg)
Quote from: fsujax on April 10, 2009, 08:05:36 AM
The North Florida TPO passed a resolution of support yesterday, supporting in principal the central Florida commuter rail deal. The most interesting thing was to see Commissioner Conkey from Clay County speaking up on the issue. Clay County really wants the mass transit! and they need it.
Everyone supports the central Florida Commuter Rail in principle. I don't think that ever was an issue.
What HAS been an issue is that there hasn't been a careful assessment of costs to protect the taxpayer, to make sure we have financial and public support for future rail projects in Florida. Imagine if we can have more rail projects, by keeping costs down. The public would buy into such a set up, rather than what they perceive to be tax-payer money give-aways.
Here is just one example:
QuoteGAO Report Questions Rail Agreements
By LINDSAY PETERSON | The Tampa Tribune
Published: March 30, 2009
A U.S. General Accounting Office report raises questions about the type of liability agreement the state wants to sign with CSX Transportation in the Central Florida commuter rail project.
U.S. Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minn. and head of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, sought the report last year, when U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa, started asking questions about the state's proposal.
The Florida Department of Transportation wants to give CSX Transportation more than $450 million to buy 61 miles of its tracks in Central Florida. It would be used to create a commuter system, called SunRail.
As a condition, CSX wants the state to take liability for damage to commuter trains or passengers in the case of an accident, even one caused by a CSX train using the line.
CSX and the DOT have said the agreement is typical of most across the country. Castor questioned that, and she and Oberstar asked the GAO to study rail agreements in other places where commuter and freight trains use the same tracks.
In the February report, the GAO found a variety of arrangements. Some were specific about what would and would not be protected. One agreement, for instance, specifically excluded "conduct that is taken with conscious disregard for or indifference to the property or safety or welfare of others."
Many agreements protected freight companies from all liability in commuter accidents. The GAO noted that several courts of law and the Surface Transportation Board have said that practice goes against the public interest.
Oberstar said he planned to have his committee study the issue to try and find a fair way to decide who should be responsible in commuter-freight train accidents.
"Some of these agreements make no exception for cases of gross negligence or willful misconduct," he said. "This is an unacceptable practice."
Reporter Lindsay Peterson can be reached at (813) 259-7834.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/mar/30/gao-report-queations-rail-agreements/news-breaking/
Lets work out some of the kinks and get the show on the road.
The GAO is one of the most non-partisan investigative entities in government,..........thank goodness there still are some non-partisan government entities around!
QuoteAs a condition, CSX wants the state to take liability for damage to commuter trains or passengers in the case of an accident, even one caused by a CSX train using the line.
Since the State will own the line, who will dispatch the trains? Also, will CSX trains be allowed to use the Sunrail line during Sunrail operating hours?
Well, if these kinks aren't worked out soon, the State will lose federal funding for this project and that money will be sent to other areas of the country who have their act together. The FTA already looks down on Florida as far as transit goes, so this delaying does not help us at all. Central Florida has already lost out in the past with these types of delays. Just ask our friends in Charlotte what it is like to recieve money from the feds that was to go to Florida to build a light rail project.
Yeah, Charlotte is hoping Florida screws this one up too. They have a couple of more rail lines they would like to build.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2009, 10:54:14 AM
QuoteAs a condition, CSX wants the state to take liability for damage to commuter trains or passengers in the case of an accident, even one caused by a CSX train using the line.
Since the State will own the line, who will dispatch the trains? Also, will CSX trains be allowed to use the Sunrail line during Sunrail operating hours?
Anyway, I found the answer I was looking for, in this article:
QuoteCentral Florida commuter rail: Who pays if somebody gets hurt?
Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen
...In essence, the bill says CSX, which would sell its tracks for $150 million to SunRail and then pay to use them, would be responsible only for its equipment and employees if there is an accident.
Just about everything else would be the responsibility of SunRail, regardless of which company is at fault. That means SunRail would pay for its train and employees, plus passengers or even anyone injured while waiting for a train.
Yarbrough said SunRail would be responsible for passengers and bystanders -- even if CSX were to blame for the accident -- because of what’s known as the “but for†argument: “But for†SunRail, they most likely would not have been in the rail corridor.
The exception would be “third-party†claims, which would be split by CSX and SunRail. A third party might be a motorist hurt at a crossing.
As it stands, SunRail would have exclusive use of the tracks for 12 hours a day, from 5 to 10 a.m. and 3 to 10 p.m. CSX would have the tracks solely from midnight to 5 a.m. Other times, the tracks would be shared, with SunRail in charge of dispatching.
In Massachusetts, the arrangement being considered by the Florida Legislature would have resulted in MBTA, or the state, being responsible for all injured commuters. Drew Lanier, a University of Central Florida political-science professor, said CSX can demand such a pact because it owns the tracks and SunRail can’t operate without them.
full article: http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=25328
So if Sunrail is in charge of dispatching a CSX freight train that runs into commuter rail train, also dispatched by Sunrail, who should be responsible?
Quote from: fsujax on April 14, 2009, 10:55:12 AM
Well, if these kinks aren't worked out soon, the State will lose federal funding for this project and that money will be sent to other areas of the country who have their act together. The FTA already looks down on Florida as far as transit goes, so this delaying does not help us at all. Central Florida has already lost out in the past with these types of delays. Just ask our friends in Charlotte what it is like to recieve money from the feds that was to go to Florida to build a light rail project.
Speaking of which,...........I read in a comment that ridership on the proposed Orlando light rail system was estimated far higher than the higher cost central Florida Rail line that's now being considered.
Here is the comment:
QuoteFact Concerning the Capital Cost:
Currently, FDOT claims the total cost of this project is $641 million dollars.
As a point of comparison, the Light Rail Transit System in the I-4 corridor had a cost of $600 million and was voted DOWN by Orange County voters. It a ridership in excess of 24,000 per day.
Give the voters a choice between light rail (I-4 corridor) with 24,000 trips a day and commuter rail (on CSX tracks) with 3500 trips a day.
Given the facts, it makes one wonder how we ever arrived at this point.
http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2009/04/sunrail-friends-foes-turn-up-the-volume-.html
Does anyone know if these ridership numbers are valid?
If so, the light rail system would have taken roughly 8 times more traffic off the road as the Central Florida commuter rail.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2009, 11:03:17 AM
So if Sunrail is in charge of dispatching a CSX freight train that runs into commuter rail train, also dispatched by Sunrail, who should be responsible?
So you don't think a CSX train operator could make a mistake?
QuoteMonday, September 15, 2008
SIMI VALLEY, Calif. â€" Albert "Jay" Cox could not believe his eyes when he saw a freight train hurtling toward the commuter train he was riding.
"Because the brakes of our train were not being thrown on, I thought I was seeing it wrong," he said.
But there was nothing wrong with his vision. In an instant, he was hurled over the row of seats in front of him and smashed face-first into a table.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,422523,00.html
Ideally, they should have both, since the systems would serve different demographics. The light rail line will be shorter, with more stops and a high frequency of service. It will directly connect DT with the International Drive area. Sunrail is set up to bring riders in from the surrounding counties with less service frequency. It will connect DT with city centers in Volusia and Osceola Counties. For Orlando, it also reduces the amount of daily freight traffic that cuts a city with limited grade separated crossings and major congestion issues in half.
The light rail plan is also more expensive. The 22-mile line is estimated to cost $1.3 billion to build. Sunrail is a 61-mile system that will bring commuter rail to Orlando and improve freight service throughout Central Florida with the state investing to upgrade the CSX S Line. A better freight corridor will enhance Florida's ports, industrial and distribution markets, which will spur thousands of jobs in the future.
So, I don't know if it makes much sense to argue them as competing against each other, when they are planning them to complement each other.
Here is a link to information about Orlando's North/South light rail plans: http://www.sunrail.com/nslightrail.asp
Quote from: FayeforCure on April 14, 2009, 11:19:21 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2009, 11:03:17 AM
So if Sunrail is in charge of dispatching a CSX freight train that runs into commuter rail train, also dispatched by Sunrail, who should be responsible?
So you don't think a CSX train operator could make a mistake?
I invite Ock's family to come over to cook a Colombian meal in my kitchen and his wife burns my condo building down in the process, who's responsible? It's the skillet operater's fault, but the financial impact will hit my bank account. In any situation, mistakes can happen.
However, I think the main opposition to the Sunrail deal strictly revolves around politics. If the liability argument were the issue, then we should consider not allowing Sunrail to dispatch freight trains during passenger train operating hours. However, its not. This is a typical commuter rail provision. In fact, its the same one in place with South Florida's Tri-Rail and others across the country. From what I've seen from Dockery's arguments, this is about throwing enough rocks and hoping that one will eventually land.
Lakelander, your analogy doesn't fly.
Rather think of yourself as a car driver on the road.
While a cop is directing traffic, you still can make a mistake and hit the car in front of you.
You better be insured for liability as the car operator!
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2009, 11:30:18 AM
Ideally, they should have both, since the systems would serve different demographics. The light rail line will be shorter, with more stops and a high frequency of service. It will directly connect DT with the International Drive area. Sunrail is set up to bring riders in from the surrounding counties with less service frequency. It will connect DT with city centers in Volusia and Osceola Counties. For Orlando, it also reduces the amount of daily freight traffic that cuts a city with limited grade separated crossings and major congestion issues in half.
So, I don't know if it makes much sense to argue them as competing against each other, when they are planning them to complement each other.
Here is a link to information about Orlando's North/South light rail plans: http://www.sunrail.com/nslightrail.asp
Looks like the environmental impact study has been completed for the light rail system, so is it shovel ready for federal stimulus monies?
http://www.sunrail.com/documents/44.pdf
I don't think anyone is arguing that they are competing against each other, though the word out there is that nothing will be considered until the central florida cmmuter rail has been pushed through.
It would behoove Florida to have more pokers in the fire, rather than putting all our eggs in one basket.
Quote from: FayeforCure on April 14, 2009, 01:33:02 PM
Lakelander, your analogy doesn't fly.
Rather think of yourself as a car driver on the road.
While a cop is directing traffic, you still can make a mistake and hit the car in front of you.
You better be insured for liability as the car operator!
Do you know of any similar commuter rail deals not under the same liability provision? Something, we could use as a proper example to follow?
Quote from: FayeforCure on April 14, 2009, 01:47:58 PM
Looks like the environmental impact study has been completed for the light rail system, so is it shovel ready for federal stimulus monies?
http://www.sunrail.com/documents/44.pdf
I don't think so, but I'm not sure. Also, at this point, I'm not sure of what Orlando asked for or was granted from the federal stimulus.
QuoteI don't think anyone is arguing that they are competing against each other, though the word out there is that nothing will be considered until the central florida cmmuter rail has been pushed through.
There's nothing stopping locally funded projects from moving forward. However, if the Sunrail deal dies because the state can't agree with a common commuter rail provision, don't expect to see new federal/state funding for commuter rail systems come on line anytime soon.
QuoteIt would behoove Florida to have more pokers in the fire, rather than putting all our eggs in one basket.
I agree. Regardless of what happens with Sunrail, we should be attempting to move forward with Amtrak and other mass transit improvements in Florida. However, if Sunrail dies, it makes the fight for additional commuter rail across Florida, twice as difficult as it already is today. If delay causes us to not have proper plans in place by the time Obama leaves office, this may go down as another massive missed opportunity for federal funding to improve rail in Florida. However, it will build something nice in another state.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2009, 02:07:04 PM
I agree. Regardless of what happens with Sunrail, we should be attempting to move forward with Amtrak and other mass transit improvements in Florida. However, if Sunrail dies, it makes the fight for additional commuter rail across Florida, twice as difficult as it already is today. If delay causes us to not have proper plans in place by the time Obama leaves office, this may go down as another massive missed opportunity for federal funding to improve rail in Florida. However, it will build something nice in another state.
The delay is caused by lack of political will to work out legitimate concerns.
The GAO report was done precisely to look at commuter rail liability arrangements all over the nation. You can check their report for comparisons in the public interest.
Another item of concern is expressed here:
QuoteWhile we respect and commend their goal of
bringing commuter rail to Greater Orlando, we oppose this transaction and future transactions
authorized by SB 1212 that will deprive thousands of our members of their railroad jobs and
benefits.
A review of the transaction documents and responses to public records requests reveals that CSX
and FDOT specifically structured this transaction so as to abolish CSX’s legal obligation to employ
federal railroad workers protected by the collective bargaining, pension and workers compensation
rights afforded them by the federal Railway Labor Act, the federal Employers Liability Act, the
federal Rail Road Retirement Act of 1974 and the federal Interstate Commerce Commission
Termination Act of 1995.
See attached “Memorandum re Secretary’s Meeting with CSXT â€" Key
Points,†c. 2006. By transferring legal title to the State of Florida, but retaining a permanent freight
rail easement, CSX has crafted this transaction to avoid its legal obligations to employ federal
railroad workers to do critical railroad operations work including, but not limited to, signal
construction and maintenance operations and maintenance-of-way operations.
Numerous negotiation efforts to restructure the railroad labor components of this transaction to
emulate the precedence set by the Tri-Rail transaction have been repeatedly rejected by FDOT
and CSX. FDOT and CSX have made it clear that railroad worker union busting is not just a side
impact of this deal: it is a primary goal.
The Florida AFL-CIO supports mass transit projects and commuter rail that makes sense for
Florida. But the proposal before the legislature is nothing more than a sweetheart deal for a record profitable
freight rail company that includes ridding itself of labor operating costs. It is a deal
neither Florida nor the working families adversely impacted by its terms can afford.
The Florida AFL-CIO stands strongly in opposition to Senate Bill 1212 and will continue to fight for
the impacted railroad workers. We will fight for their jobs, their benefits, their rights and their
dignity.
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2009/04/aflcio-reiterates-opposition-to-sunrail.html
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2009, 01:56:08 PM
Do you know of any similar commuter rail deals not under the same liability provision? Something, we could use as a proper example to follow?
Here is "How They Do It Up North"
Quote"Think of it this way: A tractor-trailer truck speeding out of control on Route 128, its driver drunk and barely conscious after logging 36 straight hours on the road, slams into a school bus. Who is at fault? Who pays for the damages? Under CSX's view of the world, the truck driver (assuming he lives) and the trucking company would walk away scot-free, with all the damages paid by the state Highway Department."
It is, they added, "an absurd scenario." But it is also "what CSX is asking for with no-fault liability, even in cases of gross negligence or willful misconduct.
"No-fault is bad public policy," they wrote.
McGovern said that, in Massachusetts (as is the case in Florida), CSX "has asserted that this no-fault provision is the industry standard, but that turns out to be incorrect."'NO INDUSTRY STANDARD'A report released two weeks ago by the Government Accountability Office, the independent investigating arm of Congress, "dispels the notion that no-fault liability, even in cases of gross negligence or willful misconduct, is the industry standard. In fact, there is no industry standard."
Furthermore, the report noted that a U.S. Court of Appeals ruled that "it was against public policy to indemnify for gross negligence and willful misconduct because this could undermine rail safety."
Back up North, two of the state's top elected officials see things differently: "Our efforts in Massachusetts should be guided by the simple notion that people and companies are responsible for their own actions."
It is, they said, "just common sense."
If that's the way they do it up North, send a trainload of it to the Southland.
http://www.theledger.com/article/20090405/NEWS/904055008/1398?Title=CSX-Rail-Responsibility-How-They-Do-It-Up-North
So in Massachusetts, commuter rail trains run on CSX lines without the liability agreement proposed for Sunrail?
QuoteCSX/Sun Rail Commuter Train Approval Looks Possible
By Joe Follick
LEDGER TALLAHASSEE BUREAU
An amendment to allow county commissioners to approve a $2 per day car rental surcharge may push the CSX/Sun Rail commuter train in greater Orlando to narrow approval in a key showdown vote on Wednesday.
Sen. Chris Smith, R-Fort Lauderdale, said last week that he needed that amendment, which would dedicate the car rental revenue to local commuter train efforts, before he would vote for the plan. He said South Florida’s SunRail needs the guaranteed revenue to maintain operations. But the governor’s office and others said they would only support the plan if it were subject to voter approval.
In a classic Tallahassee compromise, the amendment tomorrow would allow county commissioners to approve the surcharge with a voter referendum to follow in the next general election.
Smith said today that it appeared the change would be enough to earn his support at a seven-member committee on Wednesday. He was widely viewed as the deciding vote.
The Senate Transportation and Economic Development Committee will consider SB 1212 Wednesday morning. The bill provides the change in law that would create a “no fault†insurance agreement between CSX and the state, leaving each party solely responsible for damages incurred on their equipment, employees and passengers regardless who was at fault.
http://www.theledger.com/article/20090414/NEWS/904149962
QuoteSome major points of contention on SunRail
By Dan Tracy and Aaron Deslatte | Sentinel Staff Writers
April 15, 2009
CLAIM: Opponents say the $308 million the federal government is supposed to provide isn't guaranteed.
FACT: There is no federal guarantee for SunRail. But U.S. Rep. John Mica, R- Winter Park, said the only thing standing between SunRail and the federal money is state approval.
"I just need 21 votes in the Senate," Mica said. He and U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Jacksonville, who chairs the House transportation subcommittee, both promise to obtain the money quickly.
Mica said the money will come in two allotments: $178 million to pay for SunRail's first phase, between DeBary in Volusia County and Sand Lake Road in south Orange County, to open in 2011.
Then he will seek $129 million for the second stage, from DeBary to DeLand to the north and Sand Lake Road to Poinciana in Osceola County in the south. That's scheduled to be running by 2013.
CLAIM: Foes say if the federal money doesn't come, local governments will have to make it up.
FACT: Constantine has inserted language into the bill (SB 1212) saying no state or local money can be spent until the federal funds arrive.
CLAIM: Some foes, such as Sen. Gary Siplin, D-Orlando, say this money could be spent on schools.
FACT: That can't happen. All the money â€" which comes from gasoline taxes and other dedicated sources â€" can be spent only on transportation. Most of it won't even be collected for a few years; it's simply being allocated now.
For example, DOT officials said the $432 million payment to CSX to buy the SunRail tracks, improve other CSX tracks and move a rail yard to Winter Haven will come from basically two sources: $173 million in bonds that are not yet sold, and $259 million from gas and real-estate taxes that will be collected through 2016.
In a two-page finance sheet, DOT says it has only about $34 million in its current budget for the project. DOT will also spend $173 million (down from $214 million) to build bridges over five rail overpasses; two are done, and two are under construction. DOT says it would have to build these projects with or without the CSX deal. All are funded out of the agency's tax collections.
"I don't have that in cash yet," DOT Assistant Secretary Kevin Thibault said.
CLAIM: Supporters say the money being paid to CSX has been allocated to Central Florida's transportation district and can't be diverted to road projects elsewhere.
"Most of it is coming from District 5," Constantine told Senate Democrats on Tuesday.
FACT: Only a sliver of the funding â€" just $51 million of the $432 million being paid to CSX Corp. â€" is coming from District 5 dollars. An additional $380 million is from what the department calls its "strategic intermodal system" funding, comprising fuel taxes and documentary-stamp-tax revenues from real-estate sales. Those dollars could go anywhere in the state.
CLAIM: Opponents say that after lawmakers in 2005 allocated more than $1 billion to be used for "growth management" projects â€" either transit or road construction â€" DOT squirreled away that money and is using it to finance the CSX deal.
Dockery said she plans to show at today's hearing what DOT has done with that money.
FACT: Those growth-management dollars have been committed to transportation projects across the state, including SunRail; a $1.8 billion-and-growing Port of Miami Tunnel project; and a widening of Interstate 595 in Broward County. SunRail is the single largest beneficiary, but DOT couldn't say how much of that money was being devoted to SunRail.
"I'm paying for projects with it," Thibault said. "I have every dollar programmed [committed to projects]."
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-sunrail-problems-041509,0,7474724.story
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2009, 10:11:05 PM
So in Massachusetts, commuter rail trains run on CSX lines without the liability agreement proposed for Sunrail?
lakelander, yes, that is what the article seems to indicate.
This is what the GAO found:
QuoteIn the February report, the GAO found a variety of arrangements. Some were specific about what would and would not be protected. One agreement, for instance, specifically excluded "conduct that is taken with conscious disregard for or indifference to the property or safety or welfare of others."
Many agreements protected freight companies from all liability in commuter accidents. The GAO noted that several courts of law and the Surface Transportation Board have said that practice goes against the public interest.
Oberstar said he planned to have his committee study the issue to try and find a fair way to decide who should be responsible in commuter-freight train accidents.
"Some of these agreements make no exception for cases of gross negligence or willful misconduct," he said. "This is an unacceptable practice."
Reporter Lindsay Peterson can be reached at (813) 259-7834.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/mar/30/gao-report-queations-rail-agreements/news-breaking/
Why should we burden the tax-payer with the negligence of for-profit industry? It's that kind of wasteful, expensive set up, favoring for-profit industry at public expense that makes a project suspect.
Quote
April 15, 2009
SunRail stalls in Senate committee
"But questions have raged in Tallahassee about whether the state should commit to the costs at a time when it faces serious budget problems and whether it should agree to controversial legal liability language that’s required for the sale of the rail corridor by CSX Transportation to happen.
Those questions continued to dominate today, as Senate opponents introduced multiple amendments met to address what they consider to be a badly flawed deal.......
Under the proposal, SunRail would be responsible for any commuter damages inside the rail corridor, regardless of who caused the accident that led to the damages.
SunRail’s responsibility for shielding CSX would be limited to $200 million, and the state would buy that amount of liability insurance.
The liability agreement has proved to be a major stumbling block for SunRail."
"You completely remove the incentive for avoiding negative behavior," said Sen. Ronda Storms, a Republican from Valrico who opposed the bill.
http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/breakingnews/sunrail041509.htm
Quote from: FayeforCure on April 15, 2009, 03:44:38 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2009, 10:11:05 PM
So in Massachusetts, commuter rail trains run on CSX lines without the liability agreement proposed for Sunrail?
lakelander, yes, that is what the article seems to indicate.
This is what the GAO found:
QuoteIn the February report, the GAO found a variety of arrangements. Some were specific about what would and would not be protected. One agreement, for instance, specifically excluded "conduct that is taken with conscious disregard for or indifference to the property or safety or welfare of others."
This does not confirm if CSX has a different arrangement with Mass. or any other state. It just suggests that there are arrangements out there, which I'm sure there are, depending on a variety of factors that could be different from the Florida deal. Is there an easy way to further detail the variety of arrangements found by the GAO? For example, identifying the freight company, state and commuter rail system name.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2009, 04:51:19 PM
This does not confirm if CSX has a different arrangement with Mass. or any other state. It just suggests that there are arrangements out there, which I'm sure there are, depending on a variety of factors that could be different from the Florida deal. Is there an easy way to further detail the variety of arrangements found by the GAO? For example, identifying the freight company, state and commuter rail system name.
Whether or not CSX has a different arrangement with Mass. or not is irrelevant, except that their assertion that their preferred indemnity arrangement is a "standard" industry arrangement is patently false. Besides,..... putting the tax payer on the hook for mistakes a private company makes is contrary to being good public stewards of public resources ie tax-payer revenues.
QuoteCSX and the DOT have said the agreement is typical of most across the country. Castor questioned that, and she and Oberstar asked the GAO to study rail agreements in other places where commuter and freight trains use the same tracks.
In the February report, the GAO found a variety of arrangements. Some were specific about what would and would not be protected. One agreement, for instance, specifically excluded "conduct that is taken with conscious disregard for or indifference to the property or safety or welfare of others."
and
QuoteFurthermore, the report noted that a U.S. Court of Appeals ruled that "it was against public policy to indemnify for gross negligence and willful misconduct because this could undermine rail safety."
I know you are not trying to justify bad public policy,........even if it may have occurred in the past
Quote from: FayeforCure on April 15, 2009, 07:41:11 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2009, 04:51:19 PM
This does not confirm if CSX has a different arrangement with Mass. or any other state. It just suggests that there are arrangements out there, which I'm sure there are, depending on a variety of factors that could be different from the Florida deal. Is there an easy way to further detail the variety of arrangements found by the GAO? For example, identifying the freight company, state and commuter rail system name.
Whether or not CSX has a different arrangement with Mass. or not is irrelevant, except that their assertion that their preferred indemnity arrangement is a "standard" industry arrangement is patently false. Besides,..... putting the tax payer on the hook for mistakes a private company makes is contrary to being good public stewards of public resources ie tax-payer revenues.
After viewing the GAO report list, it does appear to be pretty common. In fact, its better off than several systems, such as Virginia's VRE, New Mexico's Rail Runner Express, Baltimore's MARC and MBTA's Worcester line, where commuter rail covers all liabilities.
QuoteI know you are not trying to justify bad public policy,........even if it may have occurred in the past.
I'm not justifying bad public policy. I'm just looking at the entire picture from a holistic viewpoint. When all of the dominoes are evaluated, killing the entire deal, which also damages other commuter rail plans across the state, over a standard provision when freight is in the driver's seat, just isn't worth it to me. Especially, with Sunrail in charge of dispatching and day freight traffic being limited.
Quote from: FayeforCure on April 15, 2009, 03:44:38 PM
April 15, 2009
SunRail stalls in Senate committee
"But questions have raged in Tallahassee about whether the state should commit to the costs at a time when it faces serious budget problems and whether it should agree to controversial legal liability language that’s required for the sale of the rail corridor by CSX Transportation to happen.
Those questions continued to dominate today, as Senate opponents introduced multiple amendments met to address what they consider to be a badly flawed deal.......
Under the proposal, SunRail would be responsible for any commuter damages inside the rail corridor, regardless of who caused the accident that led to the damages.
SunRail’s responsibility for shielding CSX would be limited to $200 million, and the state would buy that amount of liability insurance.
The liability agreement has proved to be a major stumbling block for SunRail."
"You completely remove the incentive for avoiding negative behavior," said Sen. Ronda Storms, a Republican from Valrico who opposed the bill.
http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/breakingnews/sunrail041509.htm
Its funny how the media reports the same event.
QuoteSunRail pushed off track -- temporarily
Wednesday, April 15, 2009
TALLAHASSEE (News 13) -- The big vote scheduled for Wednesday in a critical Senate committee on the state's $1.2 billion commuter rail project in Central Florida is being delayed.
But SunRail supporters appear to have made the deal to get the rail through to the Senate floor.
The Senate Transportation and Economic Development Appropriations Committee spent Wednesday morning listening to a slew of amendments to the bill.
Opponents of SunRail, led by Lakeland Sen. Paula Dockery, tried to kill the commuter rail with amendments and substitute language, but in the end, lost their bid with a number of 4 to 3 votes by the committee.
The swing vote came from Sen. Chris Smith of West Palm Beach. Smith wanted a dedicated funding source for South Florida's Tri-Rail, and he got it with the addition of a $2 a day rental car surcharge.
Each county would have to approve that tax by a super-majority vote of the county commission, and then a referendum of voters.
Smith sided with SunRail backers on all the critical votes Wednesday.
But time ran out for the Transportation Appropriations Committee meeting, and chairman Sen. Mike Fasano, R-New Port Richey, said some 73 people had signed up to speak to the committee and they would get their chance.
The committee is expected to meet again Monday, but Fasano said the Senate calendar may be changed and they may meet again on Saturday.
This story is from our Bright House Networks partner, Central Florida News 13.
http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2009/4/15/460881.html?title=SunRail+pushed+off+track+--+temporarily+
Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2009, 09:15:42 PM
I'm not justifying bad public policy. I'm just looking at the entire picture from a holistic viewpoint. When all of the dominoes are evaluated, killing the entire deal, which also damages other commuter rail plans across the state, over a standard provision when freight is in the driver's seat, just isn't worth it to me. Especially, with Sunrail in charge of dispatching and day freight traffic being limited.
You know, it's too bad the GAO report had to prove that indeed the indemnity arrangement is bad public policy and not standard practice.
There aren't just two options: killing it or passing it.
All along there has been the adjustment option, to make it more public friendly. Admittedly it's a little late in the game, but the issues with the set-up aren't new,...........they've just become more critical in an economy that cannot afford the luxury of give-aways at tax payer expense.
I think it would actually have set a better precedent if the central florida rail deal had been more protective of the taxpayer, thus making other state commuter deals less suspect as well.
QuoteAngelica Palank also did not have the chance to speak to lawmakers on Wednesday. Her husband was killed in a 1991 Amtrak crash in South Carolina attributed to CSX's failure to maintain the track. The resulting $63.8 million settlement was paid by taxpayer-funded Amtrak because of a liability agreement.
"I am distraught," she said as the committee room emptied on Wednesday. She said CSX's history of "wantonly and intentionally removing" personnel responsible for safety are "things that our policy makers ought to hear instead of arguing with FDOT, who obviously wants this more than they want their dinner tonight … To not be hearing some of these truths, I think, allows lawmakers to vote from their ivory towers."
http://www.theledger.com/article/20090415/NEWS/904155034/1410?Title=Senators-Delay-Vote-On-Commuter-Rail
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/A.jpg)
OCK, in the GAO report I see 20 freight rail no-fault deals like sunrail, and 11 better deals.
Page 47: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09282.pdf
Quotethe report also points out that the liablity insurance costs can consume quite a bit of a commuter rail agency's budget, which would seem to be an incentive to get a better deal.
http://county.theledger.com/default.asp?item=2359754
There was plenty of time to hammer this out earlier.........Now we are faced with this:
Rail plan still a bad dealPublished Tuesday, April 14, 2009
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The commuter rail proposal for metro Orlando goes before another Florida Senate committee today with the same flaws that have made the deal indefensible from the start. The state would pay CSX too much for the tracks and provide the company too much immunity from liability in the case of accidents â€" even those caused by CSX's own negligence. The Senate needs to change these provisions or kill the deal.
The issue has never been whether commuter rail for the Orlando area makes sense. It is time to start building a transportation alternative in Central Florida before its growing suburbs require more massive spending for new roads and interstate lanes. But the deal for the 61-mile rail line is too costly in up-front costs and long-term exposure.
Under the plan, the state would convert an existing freight line from DeLand south through Sanford and Orlando to Poinciana. The state would pay CSX $150 million for the tracks and make an additional $496 million in upgrades to CSX facilities and to a CSX freight line west of the commuter system. Beyond the up-front payout of $646 million, multiple governments would spend another $615 million to create the commuter rail and its amenities. That money would double-track the line to accommodate both freight and commuter traffic. The federal government would pay half the capital costs, the state would pay one-quarter and the five local funding partners â€" Orange, Seminole, Osceola and Volusia counties and the city of Orlando â€" would pay one-quarter.
It would be irresponsible in the best of economic times for the state to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on rail work for CSX that has nothing to do with commuter service. At the very least, the transaction should include a clear price for the tracks. The roughly $10-million per-mile price tag under the current proposal would make the CSX deal one of the costliest rail purchases in history. Given the modest ridership projections, and the choices lawmakers must make in this recession, it is not clear the price is anywhere close to fair.
The deal also makes taxpayers responsible even if CSX were to cause an accident. In single-train accidents, the state and CSX would be responsible for losses their trains would cause. But the state would pay for any damages to passengers or anyone at the station or along the rail corridor regardless of whether its train, or CSX's, was involved in a single-train crash. In crashes involving multiple trains, the state would still be responsible for travelers and others hurt along the rail line. The state would protect CSX from liability even if it caused an accident out of negligence or misconduct.
The public policy of Florida, in other words, would be to create a disincentive for a for-profit freight carrier to put safety first. The state would purchase $200 million in liability coverage to protect against any damages by CSX, and it would charge, among others, rail vendors for the price of the insurance policy. The vendors selling magazines at the station, for example, would be taxed to cover CSX's liability. Charging the little guy to protect the big rail company is fundamentally unfair.
Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, Central Florida legislators and other rail supporters are lobbying hard for the project, but they are overselling their case. This is not about a stimulus for the economy. Federal funds are not guaranteed. The success of the Orlando project has no real bearing on rail proposals in the Tampa Bay area. They are throwing out these arguments because the CSX deal cannot stand on its merits. Senators need to pare back the costs and the liability protections when the proposal comes up today in the Senate's transportation appropriations committee. Or they should move on and try again next year.
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/article992271.ece
Quote from: FayeforCure on April 16, 2009, 01:22:56 AM
OCK, in the GAO report I see 20 freight rail no-fault deals like sunrail, and 11 better deals.
Page 47: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09282.pdf
This thing is much more complex than this, when you start to factor in line background information heading into negotiations (ex. ownership, amount of freight being shipped on them and who's in the driver's seat, etc.). In situations similar to Sunrail, the provision being debated is common place and in many cases, commuter rail carries all liabilities.
At this point, I'm still searching for a system based off a similar situation that differs. To be specific, I'm looking for a case where the public agency wants to take over a private company's main line and reroute that company's freight traffic around a major metro (in this case one with +2 million residents).
For example, when factoring in freight need, traffic, line ownership, etc. TRE's (Dallas/Fort Worth) provision is really an apples and oranges comparison with Sunrail. I guess no one is interested in looking at the examples with too much detail, but background information like this, further validates my view about picking and choosing our fights wisely from a holistic point of view.
Imo, if the provision agreement is really the main issue (which I don't believe it is), then don't have Sunrail dispatch limited freight traffic during the day. That would resolve the issue.
From article:QuoteOrlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, Central Florida legislators and other rail supporters are lobbying hard for the project, but they are overselling their case. This is not about a stimulus for the economy. Federal funds are not guaranteed.
Correct. Without the state investing their half, there is no need for federal funding. That's standard procedure. By the same token, there is no Sunrail without federal funding. The state will not be buying the corridor and upgrading CSX's S line without federal funding being officially committed.
QuoteThe success of the Orlando project has no real bearing on rail proposals in the Tampa Bay area. They are throwing out these arguments because the CSX deal cannot stand on its merits.
CSX owns the rail corridors in Tampa. The same provision issue will pop back up if any of Tampa's plans involve CSX ROW. Screwing the Orlando deal will also be a big hit to Florida for funding at the federal level. Opportunity is once again knocking and time is of essence right now with a rail friendly administration in Washington.
QuoteSenators need to pare back the costs and the liability protections when the proposal comes up today in the Senate's transportation appropriations committee. Or they should move on and try again next year.
I wonder, what would be an acceptable cost, given the situation? This is "next year." Miss the boat this time and the federal money will be on its way to Charlotte, DC or another progressive community and things in Florida will remain the same.
If Jax was posed with the question, "Would you self-insure a rail system with 200 million of your own tax dollars, if the feds gave you $X for us, CSX to move our main line and allow commuter rail on it?" Would the citizens jump up and down and demand it? Some people who live at the beach NEVER see a train and could care less.
Many people out here need to realize Jacksonville is bigger than just Mandarin, San Jose, or Downtown, its Atlantic, Neptune, Jax Beach, Sandalwood, Kernan, and places that never see a train. What do they stand to gain with rail over existing rail lines? That is a harder sell than the BJP!
Kind of a funny take on the Central Florida Commuter Rail:
QuoteTracking the CSX Rail Journey
Published: Sunday, April 19, 2009 at 12:01 a.m.
Last Modified: Saturday, April 18, 2009 at 11:34 p.m.
The Coffee Guzzlers Club members were waiting for our waitress, S. Lois Molasses, to clear the table. Meanwhile, Nevermore, the club's pet raven and mascot, had been going through the archives and had found a CGC column from a year ago this month.
It was about the ongoing battle in the Legislature to win approval for a $1.2 billion commuter-rail project that would bring a SunRail system to the greater Orlando area while paying hundreds of millions of dollars for CSX Corp. railroad tracks.
In addition, the state would have to agree to be financially responsible for any accident involving CSX equipment - whether the railroad caused the accident or not.
That April 2008 column cited a quote from Mike Thomas, a columnist for The Orlando Sentinel. He wrote … oh, wait, Nevermore wants to recite it.
Quoth the Raven: According to Thomas, "It's not surprising that the leading foe of our commuter rail is state Sen. Paula Dockery from Lakeland. Normally that wouldn't be a problem, because our Sen. Dan Webster can beat up their Sen. Paula Dockery."
At the end of the session, I summed up the outcome of the railroad deal this way: "When anyone last looked, Webster had ended his 28-year legislative career flat on his back, with little birdies twittering above his head. Isn't that 'our' Sen. Dockery, in the red trunks, looming over 'their' Sen. Webster?"
At least Thomas was fair enough in another column last week to admit the CSX supporters had come up against a formidable opponent who had some perfectly valid objections to the deal.
As it turned out, this is not a boxing match. It is tag-team wrestling - at least for the CSX team. The railroad simply pulled Webster from the ring and brought in U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park. "The project is alive and well," he said.
It has, however, began to look a little sickly recently. Oh, it has managed to get by some committee hearings - but those have been stacked with the project's supporters.
The upcoming budget has a $5.5 billion hole in it, programs are being slashed around the state, and the House version is handing education a 20 percent cut in many programs. So the CSX deal creates a pretty big blip on anybody's radar screen.
Moreover, Dockery has done some fact-checking on claims made by CSX supporters. And the answers she obtained from the Federal Transit Administration have been at variance with those statements.
And in just the last 10 days, something really strange happened. The Lakeland Chamber of Commerce came out in support of the CSX/SunRail commuter project.
Say what? It's backing a plan that will greatly increase the number - and substantially increase the length - of freight trains coming through town?
Yep. "In an e-mail sent Wednesday [April 8]," The Ledger reported, "Lakeland Area Chamber of Commerce's Katie Daughtrey asked members to pressure lawmakers for passage of the bill."
Daughtrey said she was "asking/begging everyone to contact the members of the Transportation and Economic Development Appropriations Committee and voice your support of SB 1212."
That bill was heard by committee on Wednesday where it stalled. "Members, I don't have to tell you that from a local standpoint this is important," the sponsor, Sen. Lee Constantine, R-Altamonte Springs told the committee. "But from a statewide perspective it's incalculable how important this is … "
Now that's funny: The entire deal was negotiated in secret. Executive directors of planning agencies in Polk County and other areas of the state had no idea that the commuter-rail system was being proposed until it was announced. Now it is supposedly part of some sort of statewide grand plan?
Chamber President Kathleen Munson said that the promise of money in the budget to study and plan alternate freight routes around Lakeland and the promise of commuter rail through Lakeland made it advantageous to support the bill.
Surely the chamber folks must have nodded off when CSX officials said they weren't interested in looking at a new railroad path from their standpoint. And they added that even if such a thing would be paid for by state and federal dollars, getting it permitted and rights-of-way acquired could take much more than a decade.
Did chamber officials miss out on the fact that CSX is demanding the taxpayers of Florida take financial responsibility for ANY accident caused on the tracks, even if CSX employees were negligent? Do they know state officials in Massachusetts have refused to approve such an agreement with CSX because they don't want their taxpayers on the hook for such an expense?
Billy Townsend, a former Ledger editor who now writes opinion pieces for the Lakeland Local (www.lakelandlocal.com) Web site, had this take on the chamber speaking up at the last minute and literally begging for the bill's passage:
"Well, you know what that means: Break out the champagne, my fellow deal opponents. If you've lived here for a while, you know that every Lakeland political imbroglio has its chamber stage, the point at which the chamber rushes in on the losing side."
They sure can pick 'em.
[ Lonnie Brown, The Ledger's associate editor, is interlocutor of the Coffee Guzzlers Club. The club motto this week is: "Sen. Dockery may just be The Little Engine that Could." ]
http://www.theledger.com/article/20090419/COLUMNISTS/904195007?Title=Tracking-the-CSX-Rail-Journey