Peyton Struggles: The Truth about the Courthouse
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/485953992_aMxeB-M.jpg)
On March 5th, 89.9 WJCT hosted a call in show with Mayor Peyton. In this conversation regarding the design of the Duval County Courthouse, Mayor Peyton gives an answer that leaves a lot to be desired.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/1035
Isn't the fed courthouse 14 stories? How is 8 stories almost as tall?
I'm 5'10", so its about the same as me being almost as tall as Shaq or Yao Ming.
I work off Broad so I drive by this twice a day every day...I cannot believe this still hasn't started. No balls on Peyton's part. I honestly believe he wants the next mayor to deal with it.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 16, 2009, 09:17:24 AM
I'm 5'10", so its about the same as me being almost as tall as Shaq or Yao Ming.
But you see Lake, you got a design that I think does minimize your footprint and maximize your efficiency. So really, your an efficient 5'10", which is almost the same as an inefficient Shaq or Yao Ming.
Thanks, MetroJax for keeping the spotlight on this unmitigated Downtown disaster we will be forced to live with for at least the next 50 years (Peyton's Folly?). FYI, here is the original thread I started on this very same broadcast: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4543.0.html
From my post on this prior thread, here is the comparison with the TWENTY (20) story Federal Courthouse:QuoteThen he added that the County courthouse would be close (using his exaggerated claim of it being 8 stories - its actually 7 stories per the City's own documents*) to the same height (he was counting the pediment on top to get to 188 feet* vs. the 278 foot 20 story federal courthouse with only 60% of the County's square feet) -totally skirting the point that this is not a high rise style structure for its 800,000 s.f.!! Still not confronting the situation head-on which speaks volumes of why this project is a disaster.
Peyton is lame. Can't wait for the next regime.
Any predictions on who the next mayor will, or should be?
Quote from: billy on March 16, 2009, 01:33:57 PM
Any predictions on who the next mayor will, or should be?
Been saying it for about 2 years now and still think if we want stuff done and done right. Tony Allegretti is the man.
Quote from: Bike Jax on March 16, 2009, 01:48:44 PM
Quote from: billy on March 16, 2009, 01:33:57 PM
Any predictions on who the next mayor will, or should be?
Been saying it for about 2 years now and still think if we want stuff done and done right. Tony Allegretti is the man.
AMEN to that !!!
at the very LEAST, put him on city council.
Quote from: billy on March 16, 2009, 01:33:57 PM
Any predictions on who the next mayor will, or should be?
Davis?
As in E. Davis? He has my vote.
Quote from: Doctor_K on March 16, 2009, 03:44:57 PM
As in E. Davis? He has my vote.
Make that two. Now that Brad Thorburn is out we need a new planning director as well. Mayor Allegretti and Planner Davis - let's bring some progress to this town!
There has been some speculation on George Bush moving (at least part time) to Jacksonville. He stated it would be good to be in a city where he got such warm support. I was just thinking, there would be NOTHING to stop him for running for mayor in a couple of years.... Even GW would be an improvement over PEYTON.
PS: I think Peytons building would make a swell streetcar barn!
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 16, 2009, 07:45:20 PM
There has been some speculation on George Bush moving (at least part time) to Jacksonville. He stated it would be good to be in a city where he got such warm support. I was just thinking, there would be NOTHING to stop him for running for mayor in a couple of years.... Even GW would be an improvement over PEYTON.
Does George have any experience building courthouses? Maybe he will bring the Federal way of doing things with him and build vert-i-cal-ly! How about Dick Cheney as the new Sam Mousa?;D
I don't see the point in bringing in a curved road. It looks awkward to drive through and it goes right in front of the lower steps. If they install a road they need to continue the grid pattern. (which is impossible with with this design) They need to just keep the flawed building design, get rid of the curved road, and hire an intelligent landscape architect to transform the green space in front of the court house. Then maybe we can get on with our lives and build up the building fabric around there building. There is still hope! :)
It is laughable, :D, to know that the State and City spend $$$$ to make Monroe a viable exit off of I-95, only to close it off to through traffic. Send everything down Forsyth and Union, is like blocking Beach and telling everyone at the beach to evacuate on Atlantic and JTB.
When is the last time a business made such a bad decision?
Wow.. good point mtraininjax....
The state builds a great offramp from 95 to Monroe and what does the city do? add a curve to the road.
So who else thinks that the city will end up closing Monroe off for "Security reasons", totally negating that great exit from 95?
If they close Monroe there at the courthouse, they will make the horses, who have a nice expensive stable and housing at 95 and Monroe, to have to walk around the Taj Majal. Do we really need the expense of mounted horse patrols?????
Could they not live out at the Equestrian Center?
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the western side of this project Broad Street? This is one way north, currently. As such, traffic could not turn right into the curve based on the graphic in the rendering. Traffic in the curve would have to originate from Pearl Street which is one way south. This would force traffic on Monroe in front of the courthouse in the OPPOSITE direction from traffic emanating from I-95. How foolish would this be?!! The alternative is to allow no access whatsoever to the curve from Pearl to preserve the current Monroe eastward flow or to reverse the traffic on Broad and Pearl to allow access from those streets into the curve. What a mess!
What has also not been answered is what will become of the green spaces outside "the curve"? Will they be retention ponds? A park? Grassy fields? Future development? "Protest parks"? More space for the homeless to collect? If they are used for public gatherings and events, will this interfere with the courthouse function? This area will be close to 1 and 1/2 city blocks rivaling Hemming Plaza in area.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/485954140_bsxDV-M.jpg)
Great points Stjr.
My guess is that the stretch of Monroe will become a "drop off" lane for visitors and/or taxis, and would be closed to through traffic if not closed off completely.
The green space between Adams and Monroe is kinda growing on me though. Assuming the surrounding properties are developed in a manner that addresses the new greenspace and the street, it could become a nice amenity.
I'm still puzzled about the location of the proposed building. Absolutely no concern was given to the nearby skyway and the potential to either locate the building in line with an existing station or to strategically extend the skyway to the new building.
Now there will be a continuous 4 block stretch consumed by buildings that close down at 5:00.
I would have put it on the Greyhound site. That would allow the Hemming area quick access to the new courthouse via the skyway only one stop down the line to Central Station. And The Greyhound would then be moved to a consolidated transportation center replacing the Prime Osborne. A new convention center would then replace the old courthouse and all is well for a future extension of the skyway to the sports complex via Bay Street.
Despite the fact that this thing sucks up seven blocks, the space in front of the courthouse could be nice if a little thought is put into it (ex. opposite of Main Street Pocket Park). Unfortunately, for some reason, I would be suprised if it continues to be ignored.
Quote from: Jason on March 17, 2009, 02:09:41 PM
My guess is that the stretch of Monroe will become a "drop off" lane for visitors and/or taxis, and would be closed to through traffic if not closed off completely.
Monroe is already a "drop off" lane in its own right from Julia to Main anyway, or at least it is from 7 a.m. onward. I'm kinda used to it now. But since the Forsyth exit a b**** to get across lanes to, I really don't want to take Union.
I'd rather just drive up through Riverside if that's what it came to.
I love that a link to this article was on the TU home page.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/485953992_aMxeB-M.jpg)
I have been meaning to ask, what is that "blue block" sandwiched between the Historic Federal Courthouse and the Ed Ball Building destined for? This is considered by the City to be part of the Courthouse project but I haven't seen how? There are actually 6 Blue Blocks PLUS the Historic Federal Courthouse (total of 7 blocks) PLUS the space in the Ed Ball Building!
This graphic shows what an albatross this project really is to Downtown and why it will be long remembered as Peyton's Folly. Maybe, if we mailed this to every citizen in Jax, the populace would realize why it's a shipwreck BEFORE they build it, rather than after.
And, still wondering what the explanation is for the traffic fiasco in the making:
Quote from: stjr on March 17, 2009, 01:58:51 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the western side of this project Broad Street? This is one way north, currently. As such, traffic could not turn right into the curve based on the graphic in the rendering. Traffic in the curve would have to originate from Pearl Street which is one way south. This would force traffic on Monroe in front of the courthouse in the OPPOSITE direction from traffic emanating from I-95. How foolish would this be?!! The alternative is to allow no access whatsoever to the curve from Pearl to preserve the current Monroe eastward flow or to reverse the traffic on Broad and Pearl to allow access from those streets into the curve. What a mess!
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/485954140_bsxDV-M.jpg)
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Quote from: stjr on March 18, 2009, 01:40:36 AM
I have been meaning to ask, what is that "blue block" sandwiched between the Historic Federal Courthouse and the Ed Ball Building destined for? This is considered by the City to be part of the Courthouse project but I haven't seen how?
At this point, it looks like the city will hold on to it for future courthouse expansion. In the decades in between, it will probably be additional greenspace (like the carved up blocks next to it) or surface parking.
Quote
And, still wondering what the explanation is for the traffic fiasco in the making:
Quote from: stjr on March 17, 2009, 01:58:51 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the western side of this project Broad Street? This is one way north, currently.
Yes, the west boundary is Broad Street.
QuoteAs such, traffic could not turn right into the curve based on the graphic in the rendering. Traffic in the curve would have to originate from Pearl Street which is one way south. This would force traffic on Monroe in front of the courthouse in the OPPOSITE direction from traffic emanating from I-95. How foolish would this be?!!
At this point, I believe Monroe will still be a one-way Eastbound Street. Broad Street traffic should be able to still turn right, assuming the turning radius is larger than what is being shown in the renderings.
QuoteThe alternative is to allow no access whatsoever to the curve from Pearl to preserve the current Monroe eastward flow or to reverse the traffic on Broad and Pearl to allow access from those streets into the curve. What a mess!
Yes, its a mess. I would not be surprised if the curving portion of Monroe ends up being closed off to regular traffic, due to security concerns.
it's amazing how a great sight like this is always overlooked. if the powers that be ask then they'd get a better planning committee from people on metrojax.... i just don't think anyone in the mayor's office is open to suggestions....
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 16, 2009, 07:45:20 PM
There has been some speculation on George Bush moving (at least part time) to Jacksonville. He stated it would be good to be in a city where he got such warm support. I was just thinking, there would be NOTHING to stop him for running for mayor in a couple of years.... Even GW would be an improvement over PEYTON.
You have got to be kidding. Looks like you just can't imagine anything else but failed Republican rule.
Sorry, but I have to comment to the 20 percenters who still are blindly loyal to their party, despite the devastation caused under Republican rule.
In case anyone wonders, I too was once a registered Republican and certainly admit to many Democrats having contributed to the failed Republican "no-bid" money wasting practices, by either being active enablers or being too timid to stand up for us, the people.
That's why I urge everyone to look beyond party lines and look for the common good for the people. Chose your leaders wisely. Thankfully Duval county residents have come to their senses and mostly rejected "politics as usual" or "same old same old" during the last Presidential election.
I vote for Government FOR the PEOPLE, BY the PEOPLE, and hope that voters keep that in mind when they vote. After all, that IS what America stands for.
Faye, I think his comment was "tongue-in-cheek" and meant to be a little sarcastic. ;)
Correct me if I'm wrong Ock.
here is the best solution.
The City buys the old Barnett Bank building and renovates that for a new courthouse.
We then save lots of money we can use to fund the school system next year, the judges get a beautiful edifice worthy of their lofty stature, it is next to plentiful parking garages, and is convenient to restaurants and shops. It takes a great building out of disrepair and puts it to good use. With the land the city has purchased for the new court house the city sells that to developers for housing, and downtown urban living space, the proceeds of which we can use to prop up the city retirement fund and other short falls.
The Barnett Building is way to small to accomodate their needs. I would not be suprised if its smaller or around the same size as the Bay Street courthouse.
I love the idea, however, the Barnett building is not close to being large enough. The current building is larger.
BTW, welcome to MetroJacksonville!
Don Moran and the judges will demand new. Yeah it blows, but they figure they have lived in a building that has more band-aids than the old City Hall, so they need a newer structure. The City should take over the Barnett building and use it for City offices that were outsourced around town, bring them all back downtown, where City services should be managed from.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 07, 2009, 02:04:37 AM
Don Moran and the judges will demand new. Yeah it blows, but they figure they have lived in a building that has more band-aids than the old City Hall, so they need a newer structure. The City should take over the Barnett building and use it for City offices that were outsourced around town, bring them all back downtown, where City services should be managed from.
You know they're just guna knock it down...
I think the City should give the building to Vestcor and let them do the same as they did with 11E and the Carling.
At this point, it seems as though Peyton's plan to walk through the courthouse before he leaves office is an impossibility.
I guess the landfill deal really will be his legacy project.
Oh my God! Peyton's folly to break ground. It's hard to believe this mutant building is actually going to be allowed to come to life. I wonder if Peyton has figured out that it's not vertical yet. ???
Quote
New Duval courthouse could break ground soon, cost $224 million
The controversial $350 million project would open in 2012.
* By David Hunt
* Story updated at 12:45 AM on Tuesday, Apr. 28, 2009
Construction of the Duval County Courthouse could start next month as city officials review a $224.2 million construction plan.
That price, developed last week, is in the ballpark of a $223.6 million estimate reported earlier.
Combined with more than $60 million that's already been spent, as well as projected costs to relocate the state attorneys and public defenders, the project is expected to come within the $350 million cost ceiling the City Council set last year.
Mayor John Peyton's spokeswoman, Misty Skipper, said the $224.2 million would construct an 800,000-square-foot building in LaVilla. If the city gets a crew working next month, Skipper said, the building would be built by the time Peyton leaves office in 2011 and open for business by May 2012.
The city expects to pay $15 million to furnish the building and roughly $23 million to renovate the Old Federal Courthouse and Ed Ball Building to relocate state attorney and public defender staffs.
The $224.2 million plan goes before the city's contract proposals committee on Thursday, Skipper said.
The project has been one of the more controversial for the city in recent memory. Earlier this year, a grand jury scolded the city for wasting time and money but found nothing criminal.
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-04-28/story/new_duval_courthouse_could_break_ground_soon_cost_224_million
Key word is could start next month!!!
I wonder how much will rerouting Monroe Street and improving the moonscape around the building add to the project's costs?
We all know how the Mayor loves his "estimates". Bottom line is the taxpayers will get screwed with this boon-doggle.
sorry, but its hard to believe that taxpayers would be in better shape pouring money into the existing building for years to come.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 29, 2009, 09:52:33 PM
sorry, but its hard to believe that taxpayers would be in better shape pouring money into the existing building for years to come.
I don't see many, if any, posts advocating for keeping the current courthouse. What people object to is the poor design, expense, and project management for a new one.
What we are getting is an ugly, bloated, city space hogging, piggishly priced project wallowing in the mud! :-\ Oink, oink.
You mean this isn't state of the art?
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/images/development/duval_county_courthouse_renderings_dec_2008/dec_08_ddrb_agenda_for_web_page_35.jpg)
That precast concrete corner will look monumental for traffic coming off of I-95, via Monroe Street. ;D Serious though, hopefully it will spur development in the surrounding area. That section of DT is worse than London during 28 Days Later.
(http://londonparticulars.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/28_days_later_01.jpg)
The courthouse comedy continues... :D
Here is a suggestion: On opening day, the first trial held in the building should be over the fiasco of this building. We need to find all the guilty parties!
The building looks like it is trying way too hard to impress. Nothing subtle about it at all. Those ledges will make great homes for the pigeons. ;DQuoteDesign still being debated for new Duval courthouse complex
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-08-11/story/design-still-being-debated-new-duval-courthouse-complex-0
By Matt Galnor
The days of arguing over a dome on the new Duval County Courthouse are gone.
But bridges and columns?
They are still on the table â€" and points of contention â€" despite the visible progress on the $350 million court complex.
All of the original plans included the entrance and a facade on the renovated old federal courthouse to face the new building. The old building, home mostly to the State Attorney’s Office, would have columns that would tie into the new building.
But the city wants to scrap those plans because the main entrance of the new courthouse has been moved to Monroe Street.
Chief Circuit Judge Donald Moran, though, says not keeping the main entrance on the side and building a facade cheapens the building and is short-sighted.
The city would save $250,000 by making the entrance to the old building on Monroe Street, where there’s already a door from when it was a federal courthouse and Post Office.
A committee comprised mostly of city officials that oversees architecture on the project will meet on Friday to discuss the issue.
Also on the agenda is the $700,000 walkway State Attorney Angela Corey had been pushing for to connect the two buildings at the third floor.
The state Division of Historical Resources wants changes in the bridge design, saying right now it looks too much like the new building and doesn’t meet preservation standards, according to a letter sent to the city. The state suggests changing the windows and the shade of the concrete on the bridge to tie it more into the old courthouse.
Corey’s office has stressed the importance of the bridge for safety of prosecutors. Moran was opposed to it but has since relented. Of course, if money is the issue on the facade and building entrance, Moran suggests they could take the bridge back out.
“Put a rope swing up there,†he quipped, “and they can build a facade.â€
Moran said he’s looking at the two-building complex long-term.
“Why would you all of a sudden make it look like crap for $250,000?†he said.
The area where Moran wants the entrance is now a loading dock. The judge said Corey is against making it an entrance “so she can park some cars there.â€
Without the facade, the State Attorney’s Office would have 25 to 30 parking spots. With it, that would be cut to about 10, said Marty Terry, an investigator who also works on special projects for the office.
Although the parking spots are a benefit, they have never been a reason Corey opposes the facade, Chief Assistant State Attorney Dan McCarthy said. The judges have parking under the courthouse and prosecutors also need that security, McCarthy said.
Investigators and others also go to and from the building several times a day, and walking a block or two to a parking garage isn’t efficient, McCarthy said.
There is such a small corridor between the two buildings that the columns on the side would be a waste of money, he said. “It’d be like making the side of your house fancy when all you use is the front and the back.â€
City spokeswoman Misty Skipper said the city’s decision is strictly a money issue.
“If it were cheaper to build it in the current loading dock, we would build it in the current loading dock,†she said.
The budget for the renovation is about $20 million. The $250,000 savings would come off of the total cost and would not be used to cover any overruns in other phases of the project, Skipper said.
City Council President Jack Webb, who is on the architecture committee, said the facade cost may not be a high percentage of the overall project but this issue is perception.
Duval County voters approved a $190 million courthouse in 2000, part of the $2.2 billion Better Jacksonville Plan funded by a half-cent sales tax increase. The original design, which included a dome that could be seen from Interstate 95, proved to be too expensive.
The project has stopped and started on various budget issues, and now has a total price tag of $350 million.
It is scheduled to be finished in summer 2012 â€" more than six years late.
stjr, you forgot to highlight the part where they argue about parking spaces. I guess no one wants to park in the garage! They will all be towed in with the parking brake on. LOL
Scrap those silly columns and a new entrance on a side street. The entrance on Monroe has been fine for nearly 80 years and it will be fine for another 80. Take the money saved and spend it on improving the green space in front of the courthouse. Besides, the entrance on Monroe would pull more pedestrian traffic towards DTs retail spaces along Hogan, Julia and Adams Streets. Sticking it on Pearl isolates the courthouse foot traffic from the rest of DT.