Downtown nightclub empire builder Mark Hemphill is considering joining Jonathan Insetta and Biscotti's in the small club of business owners with multiple locations in the urban core.
With the successes of Mark's and The Dive Bar on Bay Street the universally well regarded Mr. Hemphill is considering a possible third venue in Five Points.
A Mark's style club in Five Points might be enough to fully revive the entertainment district.
Especially since the final death throes of Fuel have thrashed out on Park Street.
The neighborhood has been through a few radical changes over the past year as Paleoclub owner Neil Levitsky sold the fairly legendary Starlight after the tragic and untimely death of another Riverside icon, Linda Adcock.
Interestingly he sold the venue to the same ownership group which has opened the incredibly hip Steamworks pub, giving them a stake in two seperate venues in the district.
Jim Webb, having settled into more comfortable digs in Ragland's, has finally given up the ghost at Fuel.
With the departure of a live music venue and the conversion of the Five Points Theater into a movie venue, late night has been a little sparce in the area.
Although Alvah is opening up the old Heartworks gallery space as a coffeehouse and a retail space for Blue Buddha spices, herbs and products. He plans on being open late night again.
A Hemphill nightclub might be the very cure.
I think a bar /club like Mark's or Dive Bar would fit the new transformation of 5 points well especially in the soon to be former Fuel location. What will have to the live shows the Imperial puts on there?
QuoteNeil Levitsky sold the fairly legendary Starlight
Do you know of any renovation plans for Starlite? It did well as a divebar (true definition not comparison to the "Dive-bar" on Bay St.) but I still thought it was a waste of a good venue/ location. The layout to the facilities were pretty bad. The patio is fairly nice, with an upgraded interior tomatch that place could be awesome.
I'd hope a new club in 5 points would at least try to mimmick some of the area's local flavor. I'd think something with the same format as Marks or Dive would stand out a bit. Then again I'm basised as i'm holding on to the grungy memories from my earlier years.
5 points really insn't that "grundgy" anymore... epecially if Starlite gets a makeover.
I have a soft spot for the old days too - of concerts at Club 5, finding new music at Now Hear This and buying crazy hair dyes at Edge City but those days are over.
The Fans N Stoves building at the corne is also for sale, though it will contiue to do business until it finds a buyer. It's been up for sale for about a year. The asking price is a little over 1 million, I think.
It's being sold by Grant-Dooley, who sold the 5 Points Theater/Office building to Shad.
The Fans N Stoves building has a lot of sq footage, and it's on the corner. It could also be a good location for a bar/club.
I would love a full scale bar/club to be in Five Points. I usually go to Starlite or O'Brothers once a week and to have another option to drink at would be great.
Quote from: Shwaz on March 17, 2009, 04:44:07 PM
5 points really insn't that "grundgy" anymore... epecially if Starlite gets a makeover.
I have a soft spot for the old days too - of concerts at Club 5, finding new music at Now Hear This and buying crazy hair dyes at Edge City but those days are over.
Yeah but it's still a far cry from San Marco. Sure, now It's got more to do, more to offer and some and the patrons of the local establishments aren't all 16 anymore, but you can still feel the pull of its counterculture roots. If it does become like San Marco or all the venues become like Bay street, it'll take away from the area's charm. It would definitely cause me to make the jump to Springfield if Park st becomes infested with dbags.
I know people who felt the same way when club 5 closed its doors. And judging by the "yuppies go home" tag that's still spray painted on the welcome to 5 points sign, I know I’m not the only one who feels that way!
Toldja I was biased
But hey, if it pulls a crowd and gives the area another option, that's great.
QuoteYeah but it's still a far cry from San Marco. Sure, now It's got more to do, more to offer and some and the patrons of the local establishments aren't all 16 anymore, but you can still feel the pull of its counterculture roots. If it does become like San Marco or all the venues become like Bay street, it'll take away from the area's charm. It would definitely cause me to make the jump to Springfield if Park st becomes infested with dbags.
I know people who felt the same way when club 5 closed its doors. And judging by the "yuppies go home" tag that's still spray painted on the welcome to 5 points sign, I know I’m not the only one who feels that way!
Toldja I was biased
I believe it feels that way to you because you were there in the counter-culture hayday. The transformation isn't just "happening" it's almost complete. Club 5 is now a movie theater and owned by a car dealer, the clothing stores are all expensive name brands / local brands and are more "high fashion" than ever before - even the thrift store is over priced. Fans & Stoves is on the market and I could see it becoming the "Twisted Martini" of Riverside. Expensive lofts / condos have replaced dilapidated old buildings and even the streets / landscaping has been made over.
The patrons of 5 points will always be a little more edgy than most parts of town but the business’s and state of 5 points itself will evolve to a newer nicer strip… it has to.
yikes. i would hate to see something like mark's in 5 points.
As long as they have a respectable beer selection and I don't have to pay cover or adhere to a strict dress code, I'm game for whatever Mark may bring to 5 Points. Like David, I'm a fan of the "casual" lifestyle that Riverside is known for and I would prefer to see any new night spots cater to the local crowd than the yuppies, but either way, I'd rather have another watering hole option than another vacant space left to fall into disrepair.
I don't think a carbon copy of Mark's would work so well in 5 Points (however I do like Mark's, even though I kind of like Ivy's Saturday Night Better).
With that said, this guy has two successful places going, so he must have some clue as to what it takes to run a place.
Steven, thanks for the mention.
Although I did inquire about the Fuel space, for the record I do not see a club with me involved happening in Five Points right now. Build out costs are expensive and most of those older buildings would require a lot of work. If one of the landlords wanted to do the build out and bring them up to code for a tenant that might be tempting.
Regards, Mark H.
:)
QuoteFans & Stoves is on the market and I could see it becoming the "Twisted Martini" of Riverside.
Good luck getting RAP to approve converting a retail store into a nightclub with all that is already on the strip. Frankly, its not needed either. Take Fuel out back shoot the dead horse and revitalize the old Peterson's store with something that has a chance. Do a full renovation of the area and turn it into something that can last, and people will come to it.
Mark's does well because it is upscale, and caters to an upscale crowd. People from the hotels and berkman. Ivy caters to UNF students, mainly because of the owners, (4 UNF grads and 1 silent partner). Both have room for growth, but what would a Mark's in 5 Points cater to? What is 5 points best known for? Eclectic, bring back the Fuel vibe and it will do well. Pull from Springfield and Riverside. Try to get to fancy, listen to the crickets.
5 Points still has reputation for being more of a "fringe" area where the people are more artistic in nature. Trying to convert it to a more sterile environment would be bad. Other than people getting their eyes gouged out because they talked to someone's girlfriend, or getting mugged in parking lot behind Wall St., it really has a positive vibe.
Eye gouging was apparently drug-related. Muggings happen everywhere.
Is your avatar a picture of Jesse Camp? Oh man...
QuoteEye gouging was apparently drug-related. Muggings happen everywhere
I believe it was a specific attack for personal reasons... over a girlfriend or something.
They caught the guy that did that, and it was realted to an incident over a woman that started at Starlight. The guy whose eyes were gouged out was found at the foot of my drive way. The cops were knocking at our door at three in the morning to try and get any information, but we had none.
Lucasjj, we must be neighbors. I too was woken at 3am by an officer knocking on our door. We were told it was a hit & run but found out the next day from a reporter friend what the real story was. There was a history behind the eye gouging-personal & drugs. In other words, it was not random. Besides no one would randomly gouge someone's eyes.
On a better note, thanks for the thread. I had heard that someone subleased the Fuel building and was going to take advantage of the space as a live music venue. I know Jack Rabbits has been in its current location forever, but the place is not well suited for live music. The former Fuel building would be great for Jack Rabbits. I'm not saying that's the case, but I would be there all the time if they did. I do agree with others, anything to take up the vacant space would be great- as long as its not another sushi place.
5 points needs a live music venue. A place where national bands can be booked and draws crowds from all over the region. Kings of Leon should be playing downtown, not in St.Augustine.
KOL brings way to large of a crowd to play the Fuel venue. Met Park would be a good spot for the show but for some reason hardly anything is held there.
Quote from: Shwaz on April 30, 2009, 04:45:46 PM
KOL brings way to large of a crowd to play the Fuel venue. Met Park would be a good spot for the show but for some reason hardly anything is held there.
uh...Met Park has been booked for the last few weekends....and is booked for the next few.
Jacksonville needs a decent live music venue period, i.e. indie, alternative. KOL could pack them in. I think Black Kids or Bloc Party could do the same.
Quoteuh...Met Park has been booked for the last few weekends....and is booked for the next few.
What the boat show?
Met Park has 5 events (9 days total) of events planned through August. All weekend events.
Should I tally up the St. Augustine Amphitheater for those months? Should we compare the big name act's?
Agreed on downtown or surrounding area needing another live music venue...Black Kids are from Riverside, yet they're playing at Freebirds at Jax Beach soon. That place isn't all that big, I was just there to see Dinosaur Jr. I miss Milk Bar (the original and it's 618 location), the Voodoo Lounge, Moto Lounge, Thee Imperial, The Pit (the REAL one), etc. etc. Eclipse is starting to have shows, so that might turn into something good too. If I knew anything about running a venue, I'd be all over it myself.
so there's 3 days of World of Nations, FunkFest, JSO concert, Memorial Day, July 4th....not too bad for a publicly-owned and operated facility....so full that the Jazz Festival had to be moved (which may turn out to be a good move).
Keep in mind that the St. Augustine Ampitheater has no direct competition....Met Park has the Florida Theatre, TU Center, and maybe even the Landing Copurtyard...plus Freebird....how many events do those facilities have?
QuoteGood luck getting RAP to approve converting a retail store into a nightclub with all that is already on the strip. Frankly, its not needed either. Take Fuel out back shoot the dead horse and revitalize the old Peterson's store with something that has a chance. Do a full renovation of the area and turn it into something that can last, and people will come to it.
Mark's does well because it is upscale, and caters to an upscale crowd. People from the hotels and berkman. Ivy caters to UNF students, mainly because of the owners, (4 UNF grads and 1 silent partner). Both have room for growth, but what would a Mark's in 5 Points cater to? What is 5 points best known for? Eclectic, bring back the Fuel vibe and it will do well. Pull from Springfield and Riverside. Try to get to fancy, listen to the crickets.
Five points in Jacksonville's bohemian area. I hope it stays that way. But it does need more venues, not the Marks/Dive Bar type of venues, that is better for San Marco. Only thing to keep yuppies from taking over is owners understanding their place in that community.
Quoteso there's 3 days of World of Nations, FunkFest, JSO concert, Memorial Day, July 4th....not too bad for a publicly-owned and operated facility....so full that the Jazz Festival had to be moved (which may turn out to be a good move).
Keep in mind that the St. Augustine Ampitheater has no direct competition....Met Park has the Florida Theatre, TU Center, and maybe even the Landing Copurtyard...plus Freebird....how many events do those facilities have?
You can't be serious... 9 days over the next 120 days this venue is active and that's "not too bad".
Leanne Rimes is the biggest act (of the 5 total) and that
because there wasn't a county fair in Texas that weekend.The St. Augustine amphitheater competes with all the places you listed Jacksonville and they have everyone from James Taylor to Judas Priest booked for the month of May.
QuoteThe St. Augustine amphitheater competes with all the places you listed Jacksonville and they have everyone from James Taylor to Judas Priest booked for the month of May.
I think the reason the St. Aug Amp. is so successful is because 1. the person who runs it really knows what they are doing and 2. it is a great venue to see an outdoor show. Much better venue than MetPark in my opinon.
Quote from: Shwaz on May 01, 2009, 09:35:17 AM
Quoteso there's 3 days of World of Nations, FunkFest, JSO concert, Memorial Day, July 4th....not too bad for a publicly-owned and operated facility....so full that the Jazz Festival had to be moved (which may turn out to be a good move).
Keep in mind that the St. Augustine Ampitheater has no direct competition....Met Park has the Florida Theatre, TU Center, and maybe even the Landing Copurtyard...plus Freebird....how many events do those facilities have?
You can't be serious... 9 days over the next 120 days this venue is active and that's "not too bad".
please answer the question about the # of events scheduled at other nearby venues in Jax....and I forgot to include the arena on my original list
Then keep in mind that any gains made by Met Park are likely offset by losses at those venues.
So how do the venues in downtown Jax stack up against St. Augustine Ampitheather?
You can add up all the events from St Augustine to Fernandina it doesn't change the fact that MET PARK IS UNDER UTILIZED.
The St. Augustine Amphitheater competes with the Jax Arena, Times Union Center, Free Bird etc. and has more big name act's booked over the next month than all of Jax combined. Check pollstar.
Here's your downtown schedule (May) via PollstarTaylor Wift - Arena
Christopher Guest - FL Theater
Leanne Rimes - Met Park
Cirque du Soleil - Arena
Jazz Festival - -Landing?
QuoteSo how do the venues in downtown Jax stack up against St. Augustine Ampitheather?
KOL will be my first concert at the amphitheater so I couldn't compare venues.
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 01, 2009, 10:52:56 AM
So how do the venues in downtown Jax stack up against St. Augustine Ampitheather?
The St Aug Amphitheater has seating for 3,400-4,000 people depending on the setup.
The Florida Theatre has roughly 1,900 seats and the Moran Theatre at the Times Union Center has about 3,400 seats. Of course, you can't drink warm $7 Buds in your seats in either of these places, but you can at any of the 15,000 or so seats at the the Jacksonville Veteran's Memorial Arena or 76,000 or so seats at the Municipal Stadium :)
how come wine is served at the TU center but not beer?
They sell liquor, beer and wine in the lobby only.
look...the fact is that all of these places hold events....for example, the TU Center has a 3-week run of Wicked that's drawing 2,000+ for each performance....last night I was at the Center for the JSO Queen Concert....and with both events at the same time, there were probably close to 4,000 people in the building.
I don't necessarily disagree that Met Park is underutilized....although thousands were there this weekend for the World of Nations festival....And again, a gain for the park would be at the expense of places like the Florida Theater and the TU Center....how would that be a good thing for downtown?
TUFSU if you're content with 9 days (total) of events at one of Jacksonville
's best outdoor venues then we'll have to agree to disagree.
Quotelook...the fact is that all of these places hold events....for example, the TU Center has a 3-week run of Wicked that's drawing 2,000+ for each performance....last night I was at the Center for the JSO Queen Concert....and with both events at the same time, there were probably close to 4,000 people in the building.
I would compare this to the sexual activity/ frequency of a married couple. The sex is great and at one time very frequent. Recently though they've become busy with other things and don't make time for it. Sure the other things are good but that doesn't mean they aren't deprived.
It's like Met-Park is the deprived wife, sitting at home waiting for her husband (
the city) to return from a late night at the office. She’s wearing some silky lingerie and still looks great for her age. Young men (me) fawn over her daily and ponder what it would be like to spend some hot summer nights in her company. Her husband though couldn’t be more preoccupied, he ignores the delightful possibilities and leaves her waiting night after night… when the candles have burn down to the wick that’s when she knows it’s time to give it up and go to bed… alone.
That's some creative writing there Mr. Shwaz!
Shwaz... :D You are such a romantic. Am I hearing a seasoned MILF seducer?? :D
cigarette anyone?
QuoteAm I hearing a seasoned MILF seducer??
A mother lover?
http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/digital-short-motherlover/1099491/ (http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/digital-short-motherlover/1099491/)
That was the only possible follow up to dick-in-a-box, which still remains my favorite.
Back to the point at hand, 5-points could definitely use some sort of additional night time entertainment.
Well, they stripped Fuel to an empty husk. Getting it ready for new business? Anyone got a scoop on that?
QuoteMET PARK IS UNDER UTILIZED.
Agreed and noted, but about 10 years ago, Delaney tried to get something passed to have more concerts there at the park, and the wussies in St. Nicholas complained and said it would make too much noise on a school night, so it was shot down.
I was not happy, but apparently the windows rattle and shake when even Tony Bennett sings in Met Park, according to the folks in St. Nicholas, across the river.
COJ Special Events is about as worthless as SMG, no one there has the gonads to make the place more special, I sware most of the city employees follow Peyton as if they are zombies.
This sounds like a great idea, especially with a great team like Jon & Mark. I DJ at Mark's on Tuesdays and Mark runs a great establishment. The days of 5points being labeled as Dirty & hippie-ish are long gone. The "alternative" demographic has evolved, becoming much more polished, and chic...not just in Jacksonville but internationally. Both Jon Insetta & Mark Hemphill's establishments are a great mix of Urban cool and sophistication. 5 points needs a serious facelift, and this may do the trick.
I'm going to Mark's tonight, so I look forward to seeing you DJ Omarvelous
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 20, 2009, 07:39:38 PM
QuoteMET PARK IS UNDER UTILIZED.
Agreed and noted, but about 10 years ago, Delaney tried to get something passed to have more concerts there at the park, and the wussies in St. Nicholas complained and said it would make too much noise on a school night, so it was shot down.
I was not happy, but apparently the windows rattle and shake when even Tony Bennett sings in Met Park, according to the folks in St. Nicholas, across the river.
COJ Special Events is about as worthless as SMG, no one there has the gonads to make the place more special, I sware most of the city employees follow Peyton as if they are zombies.
Then someone needs to get some Pella windows.
definitely agree that met park is a sham why bother if its not going to be used more then a few times a month. people is st.nick can well i will keep it civil, but yes they need to definitely kick things up a few notches, the jazz festival was a start, but lit seems the only thing the city can promote are jazz or country concerts. no wonder the we are stuck in the woods.
Quotewussies in St. Nicholas complained and said it would make too much noise on a school night, so it was shot down.
TS. It's all the way across the River and it's close to an urban area. Normally I support the rights of the little guy, but the city should have told them to f off on that one.
Quote from: Omarvelous09 on June 09, 2009, 03:08:55 PM
This sounds like a great idea, especially with a great team like Jon & Mark. I DJ at Mark's on Tuesdays and Mark runs a great establishment. The days of 5points being labeled as Dirty & hippie-ish are long gone. The "alternative" demographic has evolved, becoming much more polished, and chic...not just in Jacksonville but internationally. Both Jon Insetta & Mark Hemphill's establishments are a great mix of Urban cool and sophistication. 5 points needs a serious facelift, and this may do the trick.
Exactly. It's funny how many folks don't want to see 5 Points change because it would tarnish the memories of their youth... even though they've all grown up and don't frequent the "grundge" bar's anymore.
Quote from: Shwaz on June 10, 2009, 09:59:47 AM
Exactly. It's funny how many folks don't want to see 5 Points change because it would tarnish the memories of their youth... even though they've all grown up and don't frequent the "grundge" bar's anymore.
I think that you're partly right with that statement. But then there are those of us who don't want to remember that part of our youth (*cough* club 5) and just don't want 5 points turning into some horrible big retail strip mall crap-heap like the town center or some fru-fru snob-stop like San Marco/Avondale strip. 5 Points definitely has a different flavor. The reason most of us say the things we do is because we don't want to lose the atmosphere (well, the good parts of the atmosphere).
Quote from: RiversideLoki on June 10, 2009, 10:42:47 AM
Quote from: Shwaz on June 10, 2009, 09:59:47 AM
Exactly. It's funny how many folks don't want to see 5 Points change because it would tarnish the memories of their youth... even though they've all grown up and don't frequent the "grundge" bar's anymore.
I think that you're partly right with that statement. But then there are those of us who don't want to remember that part of our youth (*cough* club 5) and just don't want 5 points turning into some horrible big retail strip mall crap-heap like the town center or some fru-fru snob-stop like San Marco/Avondale strip. 5 Points definitely has a different flavor. The reason most of us say the things we do is because we don't want to lose the atmosphere (well, the good parts of the atmosphere).
I'll second that!
"Agreed and noted, but about 10 years ago, Delaney tried to get something passed to have more concerts there at the park, and the wussies in St. Nicholas complained and said it would make too much noise on a school night, so it was shot down."
Get your facts straight if you are going to post! Delaney had made a deal with an outside promoter to tear down Metro park and build a new outdoor amphitheater. He concealed the fact that there was a deal in place and made a big show of "considering" the idea.
They had planned on having thirty to fifty events per year (dreamers!!) and the private company was going to take most of the profits.
When a rock concert was held in the stadium, I personally measured 92 decibels in front yards across the river. It had nothing to do with "noise on a school night." You could not carry on a conversation without shouting.
I was one of "weenies" who helped hire a lawyer to stop the outdoor amphitheater. He was stonewalled on public records requests until a source inside city hall told him about the letter the Rick Mullaney, now the General Council, had written to the amphitheater developer to make a deal before anything had been approved by the City Council. Delaney agreed to drop the whole idea if we would not bring a sunshine law, public records violation lawsuit against the City. He quietly announced that the idea was dead during the middle of the horrible fire season we had at the time when everyone was paying attention to that.
This sort of backdoor dealing is just what a city official, Mosley, got in trouble for recently over the Trail Ridge Landfill deal. He hasn't been fired either and maybe he will be our next General Council too.
Now instead of a cheezy, outdoor white elephant, we have the Veterans Memorial Arena. Whether it is utilized enough is another issue.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on June 10, 2009, 10:42:47 AM
Quote from: Shwaz on June 10, 2009, 09:59:47 AM
Exactly. It's funny how many folks don't want to see 5 Points change because it would tarnish the memories of their youth... even though they've all grown up and don't frequent the "grundge" bar's anymore.
I think that you're partly right with that statement. But then there are those of us who don't want to remember that part of our youth (*cough* club 5) and just don't want 5 points turning into some horrible big retail strip mall crap-heap like the town center or some fru-fru snob-stop like San Marco/Avondale strip. 5 Points definitely has a different flavor. The reason most of us say the things we do is because we don't want to lose the atmosphere (well, the good parts of the atmosphere).
How would a bar / club like Mark's turn 5 points into a "crap heap strip mall"? Does Bay St. resemble the SJTC?
Another question, if grundge is the best fit for 5 points why is there only 1 place left?
92 decibels is a little excessive and i question how any rock promoter was able to get sound to project across the river at that volume. Did you call the police and file a noise complaint?
I thought there supposed to come out and measure the sound?
The police didn't enforce the noise ordinance then (I'm not sure about now.) and the environmental protection folks who were to enforce it worked 8 to 5. There was no one to report it to on a Saturday night.
EXCEPT! Delaney had said that no one had ever complained about noise from the stadium or Metro Park concerts. I don't think Cityline was available in those days and if a department was closed, no one answered the phone. Unfortunately for him, someone posted his home telephone number and the night of the loud concert (U-2, I've been reminded.) he got dozens of angry citizens calling him and holding up their phones so that he could here the concert noise. Some of the calls came from as far away as San Marco. He finally took his phone off the hook and later changed his number.
Our house was a block off of the river almost on the corner with Atlantic Blvd and a Pat Bennitar concert actually made our windows buzz in their frames. (OK! It was an old house, but everyone deserves a quiet night's sleep!)
In fairness, the conditions the night of the U-2 concert were perfect for the propagation of noise over a long distance. There was a strong breeze from the west, carrying the sound to the east. There was a low layer of thick clouds which also bounce sound and, of course, sound travels easily over water. I think we on the east bank of the river could actually distinguish the lyrics of the song better than anyone in the stadium.
In those days, concerts in Metro Park actually had stacks of speakers pointing out over the river so that people on anchored boats could hear the music.
If the concerts had ended at 10PM it would not have been so much of a problem, but many of them went on until well after midnight.
"How would a bar / club like Mark's turn 5 points into a "crap heap strip mall"? Does Bay St. resemble the SJTC?
Another question, if grundge is the best fit for 5 points why is there only 1 place left? "
I live closer to 5 Points than any of you and grundge is only one of the flavors of the humanity here. Here in Near Riverside we have a wonderful mixture of everybody and 5 Points serves us all. You want to see diversity? Just go into the Derby House on any morning! Nobody "owns" 5 Points!
From Rainbow and 8 Days to Owens Pharmacy and Presbyterian Towers, we get along. Always funky, never trashy! Always tolerant, always polite is the ethos. Hulking dudes in full sleeves help oldsters with walkers across the street. Misbehave and one of us will let you know about it and it will only be about your behavior, NOT anything else.
The stores and clubs come and go, but the spirit was set by Tom & Gunelle of Edge City many years ago and they are still going strong. Come and try a new store concept, this is the place. Boger's has been putting shoes on old people's feet for thirty or forty years and is still here. Others have tried and faded away as styles have changed.
Every city needs a creative center and 5 Points is it for Jacksonville.
QuoteI live closer to 5 Points than any of you
Care to bet on that? ;)
QuoteBut what about Mark taking over Craig Van Horn's old space at 9th and Main, in Springfield?
Oh, yeah - is that happening?
Hey Stephen, I grew up in the 5 Points Deli in the 80's and early, mid 90's, ever remember a rascal running around there? Any update with Fuel by the way?