Touring the Westside: Commuter Rail Photo Tour
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/westside_tour/DCP_9266.jpg)
CSX Transportation recently announced an agreement in principal to sell 61 miles of the A-Line, from DeLand to Poinciana, to the State of Florida for a proposed Central Florida Commuter Rail operation. This deal includes diverting most freight traffic away from Orlando and onto the parallel S-Line, which runs from Central Florida to Baldwin, meaning a significant portion of freight rail traffic currently paralleling Roosevelt Blvd will be shifted to a different line in the near future. To put it in layman's terms, the side effect of this deal is that commuter rail in Jacksonville could be much more feasible than originally thought. With that in mind, it only makes sense for Metro Jacksonville to provide you with a tour of what could be...
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http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/371
nice tour. I like the idea.
The tracks through Riverside and on down to NAS are almost perfectly located. Express busses could easily shuttle people into the nearby stations. The OP area would benefit by shifting development to US17 and away from Blanding.
I think it's a step in the right direction and about 20 years behind schedule. I'm extremely pleased to see a real solution to the transit problems of Jacksonville finally being implemented. Using Metro DC as a case study would go a long way to doing some serious good. Jacksonville covers about the same land area as Metro DC and could serve about the same number of people, allowing Jacksonville to grow and become more connected while still allowing for the McMansion developments springing up all over the place. And, if I'm not mistaken, the entire Metro DC line was constructed in under 30 years. We've got systems in place, there is no reason that Jacksonville couldn't have a functioning mass transit rail up in as little as 5 years. "If you build it, they will come". My two cents anyway.
Ciao.
I grew up in Alexandria, VA and can attest to the growth spurred by the metro stops. The nicest areas in VA, DC, and MD are now located near those very stops. Building an effective rail system would do wonders for our city. The bus system has been done without the success. By looking at the successes and failures of "older" cities, Jacksonville could be a gem. We just can't stick our heads in the sand and make the same mistakes others have made.
I'm rendered sputtering and speechless at this idea. It's perfect! It works toward solving so many problems - OP overcrowding and sprawl; daily horrific traffic congestion that will only increase as the areas inevitably grow; cost considerations (as opposed to the outrageous BRT); potential environmental impact; essential urban revitalization, etc. I could go on and on. It's almost like a test: if we as a community do not seize this opportunity and get this done, we are doomed to extinction as fatally flawed and defective, and deservedly so.
A question: am I being totally out of line by even considering the possibility that the reason the current Mayor is more interested in the bloated and ridiculous BRT system is because it is diesel powered, and the gasoline to run it in perpetuity has to come from somewhere near and dear to his heart? Or is that just too calloused?
I like the photos and the trains, I personally love the trains and I think they can have a great impact on the growth of Jacksonville. However, this is not the right time. Clay county has had the mess of Blanding Blvd for almost 30 years, what have they done to fix it? Nothing. Backward thinking will kill any original planning in Clay County. Why should people in Duval pay for something that benefits Clay County?
Don't destroy Avondale/Murray Hill charm just because you think, that is right, think that people will want to abandon their cars and take the train to downtown Jax. If you drop people off at the Prime, they still need a bus to go to most of downtown, so why not just let the JTA (whole other subject) handle this part and make the people who use this service, pay for it? I doubt many people are willing to give up their cars who work downtown. Traffic is not bad enough to warrant people giving up the cars.
When Jacksonville's air is so bad to breathe in the Summer due to SMOG, then we will have politicians who realize the problem. Till then, Clay County, build your new schools and sanitation before you tackle any new roads!
I'm kind of confused where your coming from, but I'll try to respond
logically.
When's the right time? I'd say in Blanding and Clay's case it's well
overdue. To plan and discuss this issue today doesn't mean its going to be
up and running tomorrow morning. These things take time, but if we continue
to stick our heads in the sand, we'll only end up paying dearly for it 10 to
20 years from now. Also, why should Jax have to pay for Clay's mess? If
anything the idea of commuter rail should be jointly funded by all places
that benefit from it, not just the core city. That's how it works in most
other metros.
Also, if you want to preserve the character of Avondale and Murray Hill,
rail is definately the way to go. Your other option is seeing a busway
(think skyway concept with buses substituted for trains) ripping down
buildings in Murray Hill and everything along it's path. Saving the
historic buildings in that area by implementing transit on existing rail, is
definately more neighborhood friendly. You'll be hard pressed to prove an
argument stating otherwise.
Also rail isn't about abandoning cars. Its about providing an affordable
alternative solution to get around town, instead of one that will cost John
Q. Taxpayer hundreds of millions more. It's a quality of life benefit, not
a lifestyle change for suburbanites. As for downtown, a stop at the Prime
Osborn would give you direct access to the skyway express and free JTA
downtown trolleys. A combination of those systems will take you anywhere
you want to go, if downtown is your destination.
I think Jack is implying that we should not even think about these issues until it is a complete crisis. I'm not really sure why most people advocate this line of thinking. It leaves us with no plan, and no vision, and more problems that are more difficult and more expensive to solve.
There, you said it, how many people from Clay and bedroom communities WANT to travel downtown? Your rhetoric speaks as if there are thousands of people who work downtown and WANT to travel downtown on a daily basis. How many new skyscrapers have been built downtown over the last 5 years? None, and the market doesn't warrant new ones, so again, who WANTS to come downtown on the commute?
Rail is not needed, plain and simple. It would be nice to see commuter used when it is needed, but to build it to HAVE when we need it is a simple waste of tax payer dollars. Much like the JTA wasted resources in building the Skyway. If the Skyway were a tremendous success, the city would have no problem lobbying for more money to take it other places. The fact is that the "plan", the "vision" from the early 80s was flawed. And by the way Dan, it was incredibly expensive. Can the City afford such future plans and vision, with NO demand?
Clay county has had commuter problems for almost 30 years, yet they have done absolutely nothing to fix these problems and allowed for the sprawl to continue. If you live in Clay and are a proponent for Rail, then you pay for it or move closer to downtown. Rail is something that is pay as you go, those who use it should pay for it, because otherwise its no better than the Skyway, a system we all pay for but few use it.
Right now the City has bigger issues other than the rail lines of existing FEC and CSX tracks. There are no tracks down Atlantic, Beach or JTB. Those main areas are going to come to a standstill in a few short years and the land is getting more and more expensive. Tolls are a good way to pay for the transportation mess. If you use it, pay for it. Or shall we have a 20 cent sales tax to help pay for all of these "pie in the sky" ideas?
How do you plan to pay for rail? Its a heckuva an idea, but when you start talking about dollars and where they come from, most people get real quiet. The stations cost money, rent on the stations cost money, the equipment, the labor, the management, and no one has proved that rail can work or succeed. When is the last time you saw a full AMTRAK from Jax to Palatka? or the other way around?
again, I agree with Jack.
Wow Jack you couldn't be further off base. First and foremost, none of this is about getting people only downtown. Its about taking advantage of our existing infrastructure in setting up an affordable alternative solution for mass transit in the First Coast. Those using Blanding and congested streets in the Westside or Orange Park, may not be interested in heading downtown, but St. Augustine, Fernandina Beach, the Avenues Mall, FCCJ Kent, Southpoint and the airport may be alternative destinations. What you don't realize or fail to accept is there is something already planned and is in the process of being forced down our throats by JTA. It's a network of busways that will cost us over ten times as much as commuter rail would. If anything, what's being floated around here is a tax reliever instead of the potential boondoggles that busways, additional Outer beltways and many of the
BJP overpasses would be.
You're also off base about the skyway and the comparison with the concept of commuter rail is apples and oranges. The federal government, not JTA or Jacksonville paid for 80% of of the skyway and it was a federal demonstration project. However, it was over engineered (for some reason we tend to spend more than we have to on simple things locally), causing the costs to rise and never completed. It's essentially I-95, without the Fuller Warren Bridge. If you really want it to work, you have to complete the regional mass transit system that was originally a part of the plan to feed riders into it. So if you have to put a grade next to it, it would be... inconclusive or incomplete.
Also the two major differences between rail and roads is the technology and the fact that road building costs a lot more. Face it, we can't build ourselves out of congestion and you can't come up with any major American city that have successfully done this. A trip to Atlanta, Houston or Orlando easily proves all the road building and tolls in the world won't solve traffic congestion or the negative environmental side effects that come with building 12 lane highways. Coming up with affordable alternative solutions of mass transit only makes financial sense. If you disagree, please feel free to bring up and discuss the successes of another city our size, or larger, looking only at additional road construction in the foreseable future for its transit problems.
As for addressing areas where rail doesn't run, I'd suggest taking a look at several of the previous transit oriented articles in Metro Jacksonville's archives. More than once, it's been mentioned that by taking advantage of existing rail and right-of-way in places where it's already located, would only free up
millions to address other areas with improved bus service in the form of express routes.
Finally when it comes down to costs, there's several ways to pay for it. The $100 million JTA plans to use to purchase right-of-way for the BRT system could probably fund most of a Duval County system (with no help from the feds), based off similar type commuter rail deals across the US. Or those funds could be matched with federal dollars just like you would have to do with more expensive road, rail and
bus projects. It could also consist of public/private financing deals, related with the development of TODs (Transit Oriented Developments). There's several possibilities for funding something so cheap, compared to the alternative, which is funding more roads or building skyway style bus lanes that are poorly integrated with the neighborhoods they are supposed to serve. However, we first have to take our heads out of the sand and look at these things in a proactive manner, instead of outright assuming they won't work or Jax is too small for anything other than roads. That kind of close minded thinking will have us with horrible traffic conditions, like Houston, sooner than you know it.
We could do this and we could do that, you sound like a politician. You should plunk down your 13 grand next time we have a 4 year dance and take a stab at running. We could get 100 million, we could get Federal money, we could get elephants that fly. The fact that the City does not have the resources for this pie in the sky application is apparent.
I can think of many things that this city needs more than BRT NOW and we can spend that 100 million much wiser than with a BRT system, that "could" alleviate traffic congestion, if people used it. There is absolutely no proof, put forth by any credible organization, that a BRT system would be embraced and used by anyone in Jacksonville, other than the people who use the existing JTA.
The feds did contribute a large money to the skyway, but, since the inception, who do you think has been paying for the maintenance and use of it? The feds surely have not. You bring up good points, I don't think roads can solve all of the issues, but the belief that rail can bring people in and be used is not worth pursuing, since there is not enough of a demand for rail right now. Plan on it in 10 or 20 years when you have enough people to ride. Go look at bus service sometime, do the people here justice, take pictures of a FULL BUS. I don't think they exist, other than a Jaguar game. Why should we as taxpayers spend more money on a system that isn't being utilized fully, RIGHT NOW?!
Jack, have you seen the BRT plan that JTA is currently moving forward with? It is more pie in the sky than anything proposed on this website. It sounds like you are a little confused on what is being advocated here.
If you think that Jacksonville will need rail in 10 to 20 years, when do you think JTA should start planning for it?
That's a very good question, that I'd love to see Jack's answer on. Most of today's road projects under construction were originally planned over a decade ago. Even I-295/9A has been in the works for over 30 years and its still not complete.
It was mentioned earlier on that, what's being discussed concerning commuter rail today, won't be operational tomorrow. Its also pretty evident that our local population base continues to grow rapidly.
So Jack, when is a good time to start talking and planning ahead on how to relieve congestion and fund alternative transportation solutions? We already have nearly 1.3 million in the metro now. Should we wait till we're in Phoenix's congested condition to sit down at the table and discuss solutions or should we be proactive and progressive by attempting to plan ahead?
Please elaborate!