Interesting...
Just looked out my window and the roof of the Riverplace Skyway station is on fire. Fire trucks everywhere.
No clue what happened. I assume it was electrical.
Ok, everyone can go back to bed.
The Great Jacksonville Fire of 2009 is OUT.
I was on a midnight bike ride and noticed a bunch of fire trucks blasting through San Marco. How bad is the damage?
It's pretty bad guys. From what I hear, the entire red line out to the sports complex has been completely destroyed, and the green line extension into brooklyn is shut down indefinitely. Also, this could mean delays for the next few weeks while they repair the blue line that runs down to san marco.
oh wait. i wish.
Quote from: David on March 12, 2009, 12:57:02 AM
I was on a midnight bike ride and noticed a bunch of fire trucks blasting through San Marco. How bad is the damage?
Well, the 12 people that normally use the Riverplace Skyway station will have to walk an extra 2 blocks down to the San Marco station.
Seriously, it just looks like the Riverplace and Kings Avenue stations are closed. The trains come to the San Marco station and then go back downtown. I have not walked over, but it looks like roof damage and not much else. I bet the lights caught on fire.
Quote from: Southbanker on March 12, 2009, 07:47:30 AM
Well, the 12 people that normally use the Riverplace Skyway station will have to walk an extra 2 blocks down to the San Marco station.
Hilarious. I was thinking the same thing.
Damn. My Metrocard is useless now!
These photos were sent to Metro Jacksonville:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/489910736_JuTXE-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/489910712_CXHNS-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/489910714_QoagT-L.jpg)
QuoteSkyway fire halts service
The charred and gutted awning atop the JTA Skyway Express station at 1400 Riverplace Blvd. was visible Thursday morning after a fire broke out at the Southbank station around 11 p.m. the day before.
The station and the nearby Kings Road stop have been closed until an investigation and repairs are done, but shuttle bus service will be provided.
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/crime/2009-03-12/story/skyway_fire_halts_service
Since it was only property damage, I don't feel bad saying that those are pretty nice photos.
I can see the damage from my office at work.(Which i didn't think of until after reading this) Looks pretty burnt up!
It had to have been an electrical fire.....
Nice photos for sure!
I took the photos from my balcony.
The fire was almost out by the time I realized something was going on. It is amazing how you ignore things like sirens when you live in a urban environment.
Definitely. I think anyone who's lived downtown can attest to that. You don't think twice about sirens blaring at any given time of day or night.
Interesting fire. I thought those awnings were all metal and glass.
Obviously the skylights were plastic!! Yikes.
Great photos southbanker.
Wow, that looks like it spread pretty fast. Hard to believe there is no better protection of the building via design or sprinklers.
Hate to see the likely self-insured JTA waste more money fixing this. Maybe they should just close the station. It probably won't be missed. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the least used of all $ky-high-way stations.
Is the fire a metaphor for something?
That is a great station, for us northbankers to access the Southern Grill, it is a nice ride over the river and less than a block walk. It also provides easy access to Mortons and the Sushi place at San Marco Place condo.
I hear it was probably an electrical fire....and I think someone posted on here the other day about a Skyway train shooting off sparks as it approached a southbank station...wonder if there's any connection?
Quote from: fsujax on March 12, 2009, 01:00:49 PM
That is a great station, for us northbankers to access the Southern Grill, it is a nice ride over the river and less than a block walk. It also provides easy access to Mortons and the Sushi place at San Marco Place condo.
Yep it's a great station for southbankers too. It drops you off right in Hemming Plaza which gives you more options for your lunch hour... that is if you can get a tram running straight there without making you transfer at Central.
The convention center station should've been the one to burn! Riverplace was so young....
Why do those photos solicit laughter?
Talk about irony.
I'm honestly surprised it didn't burn to the ground. Apparently the only time people realize the skyway is there is when its on fire.
Maybe they should do that more often then.
Quote from: DetroitInJAX on March 12, 2009, 04:44:03 PM
I'm honestly surprised it didn't burn to the ground. Apparently the only time people realize the skyway is there is when its on fire.
Maybe they should do that more often then.
Fire and Detroit - now there are two words that go together! ;D
Yeah I’m surprised no one's torched that city to the ground yet.
Detriot.
In other news, there are no underutilized public transportation facilities on fire tonight. All is quiet on the Southbank.
The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire,
We don't need no water, let the mother-f burn,
Burn mother-f burn.
FYI - I heard a JTA person on the news last night say that 400+ people a day use that Skyway station. That was a little higher than my original estimate of 12.
Seriously, I think as development on the Southbank continues ridership has and will increase. But I know several people in my bldg that work downtown and still drive over instead of taking the Skyway.
Jax is such a car city! Even the people who live in the core just don't want to walk a few blocks. ::)
Cars are just too convenient here. Parking isn't really that bad, traffic's fairly light for a medium sized downtown and we all know the deal with public transportation. Work's 1 mile from my place currently, I do try to bike at least 2-3 days a week but when the temps hit 90...forget about it. a/c car ride the whole 2 mile roundtrip son!
It's hard to do the professional office worker thing when you're soaking with sweat in your business casual attire.
But back on point: cities that have thriving public transportation systems do so by being more appealing than taking your car. We just don't have that yet.
Southbanker, Remember when it first opened riders were so scarce JTA employees were spotted riding back and forth... LOL.
Quote from: Ernest Street on March 13, 2009, 04:05:35 PM
Southbanker, Remember when it first opened riders were so scarce JTA employees were spotted riding back and forth... LOL.
For those unfamiliar, this actually happened when ABC News came here to unmask the $ky-high-way as the pork barrel project it was and still is. JTA, being aware of the visit since their officials were asked to try and explain the fiasco, had employees pose as riders to make the cars look full for the film footage accompanying the story. As I recall, ABC wasn't fooled and just edited all or most of those scenes out. Your tax dollars hard at work?!
Here is the 2002 transcript of one of several ABC stories. Per the transcript, it followed similar stories in 1993 and 1994. I like Arrington's comment that it was built for the next 20 to 30 years. Times a tickin'. Only 10 more years and it will be time to replace it based on this schedule!!Quote$200 Million Ride to Nowhere
Almost No One Is Riding $200 Million Skyway
By Charles Herman
J A C K S O N V I L L E, Fla., July 29, 2002
The 2.5-mile Jacksonville Automated Skyway Express is a model of efficiency. Completely automated and controlled from a central operation center, the Skyway makes eight stops throughout the northeastern Florida city that is split in two by the St. John's River.
The only problem: hardly anyone rides it.
"It's strictly a waste of money from beginning to end," decried longtime Jacksonville critic Marvin Edwards. He blames the builder and supporter of the Skyway, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA).
"They lied about ridership projections," explained Edwards. "They said 56,000 a day at first, then dropped that to 30,000, then last it was 18,000 to 19,000."
Currently, the Skyway sees 3,000 riders per day who pay 35 cents a trip. In fiscal 2001, the Skyway brought in $513,694 in revenue but its expenses were $3.5 million.
Fights for Funding
The Skyway was first proposed back in 1971. It took more than a decade before the funding federal, state and local could be secured to start construction. At the time, the goal was mainly for development so the Skyway to connect the downtown core with parking facilities away from downtown.
The Jacksonville Skyway was part of three demonstration projects to see if "people-mover" systems could stimulate business expansion in downtown centers. Detroit and Miami received federal funds for similar projects.
Some officials within the Department of Transportation's Federal Transit Authority questioned the ridership projections for the Jacksonville Skyway.
In an interview with ABCNEWS' John Martin in 1994, Federal Transit Administration official Gordon Linton said, "We and this department, this administration and previous administrations, have not supported it."
Nevertheless, Congress eventually provided more than half the funds for the $182 million Skyway.
In 1987 construction began on the first 0.7-mile portion of the system.
"It was mainly for political reasons, not transportation reasons," explained former Rep. Bob Carr, who chaired the committee that approved funding for transportation projects in the early 1990s. "Like so many projects, they get a camel's nose under the tent and then it gets very very difficult to stop them."
Few Riders From the Start
In 1989 the first section was completed and opened to the public. Jacksonville's transit leaders projected more than 10,000 people would ride the Skyway a day on this 0.7-mile starter section.
Instead, only 1,200 rode the Skyway.
In 1993 Transit Authority member Miles Francis defended the system to ABCNEWS. "Until this thing is finished, there's no way to measure its performance or its potential."
Now it's finished and the Jacksonville Transit Authority is still waiting for the riders to come.
Open for Business
In November 2000, the complete Skyway opened to the public. Nearly two years later, with ridership at an average of 3,000 a day, the Skyway has not met even the projections for the starter section.
"No one will argue with the fact that ridership is not where we would like it to be," admitted Steve Arrington, director of engineering with the Jacksonville Transit Authority. He says the lack of riders is attributed to economic recessions in downtown Jacksonville in the early 1990s that led to a decrease in development in the area.
"Any number of things predicted to occur that didn't occur development-wise has an effect," he added. "Fuel prices, parking prices."
Arrington still believes in the Skyway and expects to reach its ridership goals. "You don't build a system like this or a roadway for the next four years," said Arrington. "You try to built it for the next 20 to 30 years."
Riding an empty car from one station to another, critic Edwards disagreed. "This really is a public rip-off and a total waste of money that could have gone for something not quite as fancy, but a lot more practical."
ABCNEWS' Jeffrey Kofman contributed to this story.
In the 12+ years I've lived here I've only used the Skyway during my downtown worker days. Even then it was only to go from the Convention Center(where I parked) to Hemming Plaza(where I worked).
I grew up in Annapolis and I remember riding on a light rail to Washington DC. We need a reason for people to ride the skyway. The way it's set up now there isn't any reason for a normal person to ride it for leisure and it doesn't go far enough into half of downtown to make it work for workers.
there is no light rail to DC...do you mean light rail to Baltimore or Metrorail to DC?
I don't remember I was 6, I'll remember to fact check my memories from childhood going forward.
my dad's work is right in front of the station. good thing the glasses on their building didn't melt.... looks like a scene from die hard ;D
Finally, they have started removing the burned out old roof of the skyway station. Wonder how long before they open it back up? Has any timeline been published?
I have talked to frustrated users... the shuttle system seems to be the drivers personal van...
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 12, 2009, 02:00:13 PM
I hear it was probably an electrical fire....and I think someone posted on here the other day about a Skyway train shooting off sparks as it approached a southbank station...wonder if there's any connection?
The Skyway does have an ongoing issue with the wiper arms loosening the 3RD rail. On a heavy rail system the 3RD rail is a real railroad rail, on the Skyway, it's a small strap of jointed steel. This could be made easier if they would come in at night and replace the jointed power rail with a continuous welded rail. Any 3RD rail train can and will spark at the wiper, but there should be no reason to suspect this as the core problem, frankly on the running rails there is nothing flamable.
My three choices for cause:
The elevator and the electrical system that operates the lifts and or escalators. Escalators have been deadly in the past, in fact one of the infamous tragic mass death incidents happened due to an overheated escalators.
The Skyway like other monorails, PRT, or DPM transit, is automated. Thus each station has a room full of high tech switching gear. In fact having seen it, I can tell you it's impressive as Epcot. These massive rooms of wires and switches power all of the station functions, and give the operators back at the Skyway base, full control over the trains. Imagine a computer and switching gear the size of a nice walk in closet and you can see where there might be a fire.
Lastly it could be foul play, and that would be the worst of all causes. Frankly one could be prosecuted on FEDERAL RAILROAD CRIMES, terrorism, and a host of other things that would have the effect of destroying someones life.
As for sprinklers, they might be a good idea for the roof, and station platform area, but a dry chemical agent would make a lot more sense in the electrical control rooms. These agents remove the oxygen from the room and kill the fire. Putting water on an electric fire is like throwing gasoline on a flame.
Also lest anyone fear that my beloved streetcars and light rail systems are the same thing, relax. Yes they are electrical, but it's a much, much, simpler system. Generally, a transformer every 4-5 miles converts 13,000 volts AC into about 600 volts DC. The distance between transformers is governed by current drop in the DC lines. DC does NOT travel well over long distances, so the transformers give the line a boost to keep a constant charge. Other then that where the Skyway has a room full of gear at every stop, a streetcar will have one single wire, hung from catenary. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 04, 2009, 07:20:13 PM
I have talked to frustrated users... the shuttle system seems to be the drivers personal van...
LOL. This is probably better than the $ky-high-way and a lot cheaper too! I suggest eliminating the $ky-high-way altogether, save the $4 million in losses a year, and pay a couple of van drivers a few thousand instead. :D
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 12, 2009, 05:14:31 AM
It's pretty bad guys. From what I hear, the entire red line out to the sports complex has been completely destroyed, and the green line extension into brooklyn is shut down indefinitely. Also, this could mean delays for the next few weeks while they repair the blue line that runs down to san marco.
Haha my thoughts exactly. Oh how it would have been nice to take the Skyway to the RAM today.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/Acosta.jpg)
FROM THE PHOTO ABOVE TO THE PHOTO BELOW IN ONE EASY LEAP!
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/2_TTS-Monorail-Las-Vegas_Ext04.jpg)
Y'all might like to know that the SKYWAY "COMPLETED" is now back on the city's radar. The new consulting company that is working on the master plan for downtown took one look at it and said, "WTF? It's not finished?" Thus lines are once again being drawn on a map to Shand's, Blue Cross, San Marco and maybe the Stadium. With that would come new cars, longer 4-6 car trains and if we strike while the iron is hot, Uncle Sam will finance it.
Under the new rules the grants are going to be much easier to get, and the old "Try the BRT first" crap that kept coming out of Washington during the Republican reign is GONE! Now fixed guideway gets priority, add to that we have the US Congress Transportation Committee stacked in our favor. NOW IS THE TIME, GET 'R DONE!
OCKLAWAHA
Ock:
QuoteY'all might like to know that the SKYWAY "COMPLETED" is now back on the city's radar.
Sorry, Ock. I agree with all your other comments on rail but I disagree with you on this one. For two reasons: (1) It's a rat hole to put more money down it and (2) do this, and you can count on losing the FRAGILE community support for fixed mass transit projects such as street cars, light rail, and suburban rail because this will give it all an even bigger BLACK EYE (not everyone has your passion for rail, ya' know).
The $ky-high-way IS a COMPLETE SYSTEM. See below. New comers to Jax are being sold a bill of goods not knowing we have been down this path before. Extending the $ky-high-way is not the HIGHEST and BEST use of our LIMITED MASS TRANSIT dollars or worthy of growing our multi-million dollar annual subsidy by LOCAL taxpayers. When everything else is done, you can come back and play with this toy some more ;). P.S. Any politician pushing this is committing political career suicide.Quote
ABC NEWS
$200 Million Ride to Nowhere
Almost No One Is Riding $200 Million Skyway
By Charles Herman
J A C K S O N V I L L E, Fla., July 29, 2002
The 2.5-mile Jacksonville Automated Skyway Express is a model of efficiency. Completely automated and controlled from a central operation center, the Skyway makes eight stops throughout the northeastern Florida city that is split in two by the St. John's River.
The only problem: hardly anyone rides it.
"It's strictly a waste of money from beginning to end," decried longtime Jacksonville critic Marvin Edwards. He blames the builder and supporter of the Skyway, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA).
"They lied about ridership projections," explained Edwards. "They said 56,000 a day at first, then dropped that to 30,000, then last it was 18,000 to 19,000."
Currently, the Skyway sees 3,000 riders per day who pay 35 cents a trip. In fiscal 2001, the Skyway brought in $513,694 in revenue but its expenses were $3.5 million.
Fights for Funding
The Skyway was first proposed back in 1971. It took more than a decade before the funding federal, state and local could be secured to start construction. At the time, the goal was mainly for development so the Skyway to connect the downtown core with parking facilities away from downtown.
The Jacksonville Skyway was part of three demonstration projects to see if "people-mover" systems could stimulate business expansion in downtown centers. Detroit and Miami received federal funds for similar projects.
Some officials within the Department of Transportation's Federal Transit Authority questioned the ridership projections for the Jacksonville Skyway.
In an interview with ABCNEWS' John Martin in 1994, Federal Transit Administration official Gordon Linton said, "We and this department, this administration and previous administrations, have not supported it."
Nevertheless, Congress eventually provided more than half the funds for the $182 million Skyway.
In 1987 construction began on the first 0.7-mile portion of the system.
"It was mainly for political reasons, not transportation reasons," explained former Rep. Bob Carr, who chaired the committee that approved funding for transportation projects in the early 1990s. "Like so many projects, they get a camel's nose under the tent and then it gets very very difficult to stop them."
Few Riders From the Start
In 1989 the first section was completed and opened to the public. Jacksonville's transit leaders projected more than 10,000 people would ride the Skyway a day on this 0.7-mile starter section.
Instead, only 1,200 rode the Skyway.
In 1993 Transit Authority member Miles Francis defended the system to ABCNEWS. "Until this thing is finished, there's no way to measure its performance or its potential."
Now it's finished and the Jacksonville Transit Authority is still waiting for the riders to come.
Open for Business
In November 2000, the complete Skyway opened to the public. Nearly two years later, with ridership at an average of 3,000 a day, the Skyway has not met even the projections for the starter section.
"No one will argue with the fact that ridership is not where we would like it to be," admitted Steve Arrington, director of engineering with the Jacksonville Transit Authority. He says the lack of riders is attributed to economic recessions in downtown Jacksonville in the early 1990s that led to a decrease in development in the area.
"Any number of things predicted to occur that didn't occur development-wise has an effect," he added. "Fuel prices, parking prices."
Arrington still believes in the Skyway and expects to reach its ridership goals. "You don't build a system like this or a roadway for the next four years," said Arrington. "You try to built it for the next 20 to 30 years."
Riding an empty car from one station to another, critic Edwards disagreed. "This really is a public rip-off and a total waste of money that could have gone for something not quite as fancy, but a lot more practical."
ABCNEWS' Jeffrey Kofman contributed to this story.
I dunno, it sounds like what Ock mentioned may actually be coming to fruition. I would honestly hope so, this has too much potential to leave as is.
Quote from: reednavy on April 06, 2009, 12:31:25 AM
I dunno, it sounds like what Ock mentioned may actually be coming to fruition. I would honestly hope so, this has too much potential to leave as is.
What you appear to be saying is akin to the gambler who, having lost a tidy sum, says let's go for "double or nothing". Why don't we just take the taxpayers money to the dog track and bet it. At least we have a "chance" of winning. The $ky-high-way has proven to have no chance at all. ???
Let's leave the skyway alone for inner city travel. It is already proved itself as a failed system and should be left as an elevated system. I think north/south and east/west rail corridors need to be established in addition to the skyway and these systems will tie into the neighborhoods. EAST-WEST would link the beach to the westside or at least downtown. The NORTH-SOUTH line would link the airport through downtown to the southside. These would be in addition to the commuter rail lines and the buses could feed off of these lines for local stops.
The skyway is not my first choice I like streetcar. But this statement is false.
QuoteIt is already proved itself as a failed system
The skyway isn't built. It is an elevator that only goes to the 2nd floor of a 10 floor building. We do not have to finish it but it may have worked had it actually been built.
That's an interesting perspective. While I believe expanding the skyway should not come ahead of streetcars, commuter rail and Amtrak, what exists right now is a far cry from the original concept.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7664-skyway_alternative_route_map.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7661-skyway_church_street.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7663-skyway_downtown_aerial.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/skyway/original-route-map.jpg)
Connecting Shands, Springfield and Sugar Hill with DT and the county courthouse. This plan would have attracted more riders than today's.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/skyway/original-actual-map.jpg)
The current route overlayed over the original implementation plan.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/skyway/skyway-future.jpg)
The Downtown Master Plan transit plan shows potential future extensions to JMS and along Riverside Avenue.
QuoteIt is already proved itself as a failed system
The skyway isn't built. It is an elevator that only goes to the 2nd floor of a 10 floor building. We do not have to finish it but it may have worked had it actually been built.
It really goes nowhere now and still gets 3000 riders per day. I believe a line to Riverside alone would triple that. The Southbank has to have the most riders now because it convenient to many residents. Expand it to where the people are, create stops to attractions like the Stadium / Bay St. and watch it grow in popularity.
Totally agree - one of the major failure in the route in my opinion is the failure to hit any residents, or destinations (other than the convention center). The original line would have hit the springfield residents and the stadium. So if this line was extended down riverside avenue and over the railroad tracks east of San Marco Square, imagine what you would get.
Ditto what Steve and Schwaz said. We can't expect and incomplete system to meet advertised ridership numbers. IMO, get a commuter system up and running (Amtrak or other) and then finish the skyway (line to Stadium, San Marco, Shands, and Sports Complex) then watch the thing flourish as it was intended. It won't be a money pit if we finish the system and tie in the regional bloodline. PCT trollys can then fill the gaps in the short term and then REAL trollys and even light rail can be built afterwards.
BTW, the Riverplace Station reconstruction is well underway. The damaged roof has been removed and it looked like most of the other damaged portions are being demo'd now (as of Sunday).
Quote"They lied about ridership projections," explained Edwards. "They said 56,000 a day at first, then dropped that to 30,000, then last it was 18,000 to 19,000."
Currently, the Skyway sees 3,000 riders per day who pay 35 cents a trip. In fiscal 2001, the Skyway brought in $513,694 in revenue but its expenses were $3.5 million....
...In 1993 Transit Authority member Miles Francis defended the system to ABCNEWS. "Until this thing is finished, there's no way to measure its performance or its potential."
Now it's finished and the Jacksonville Transit Authority is still waiting for the riders to come.
Guys, I think those rose tinted glasses you are wearing are obscuring your view of reality. Or, maybe you are subscribing to the practice that if you mistate the facts long enough, you will convince people to believe in the misstatements.
FACT: The $ky-high-way gets only a fraction of the projected riders for what is a COMPLETED (as admitted by JTA) system, decades after it was supposed to have achieved the original projections WHICH ONLY APPLIED TO WHAT EXISTS NOW AND WERE NOT DEPENDENT ON MORE ADDITIONS. Please stop attempting to rewrite history at the peril of the taxpayers with all these "new" ways to meet revised projections and acting like an expansion was always planned with the intention to make the existing legs meet their original projections. It is not so and to state otherwise is to misrepresent the facts.
As to all those diagrams, these projects are always visualized in conception with multiple academic possibilities but only the plan deemed most feasible is supposedly recommended by those high powered consultants. It doesn't mean much to show all those charts drawn in fantasy land as they were just concepts. In the end, what was built is what the process recommended and projected to be a fully adequate and supportable system based on "expert" advice. It is disingenuous to now say that the $ky-high-way isn't functional because it is "incomplete". The $ky-high-way is a failure at any level because it is a defective method for achieving its goal.
Be careful what you ask for. We need to move on and focus on the much better suggestions for rail mass transit described elsewhere on MJ. Folks, take off those blinders and look at this project from the 30,000 foot level. To do otherwise, is to risk of your own stated priorities for rail mass transit.
All who champion mass transit acknowledge that other projects are more worthy of scarce dollars at this time. All they are saying is that if tied properly to other forms of mass transit the skyway will become what it was intended and therefore worthy of expansion at some time in the future.
QuoteYep it's a great station for southbankers too. It drops you off right in Hemming Plaza which gives you more options for your lunch hour... that is if you can get a tram running straight there without making you transfer at Central.
The convention center station should've been the one to burn! Riverplace was so young....
Riverplace Station is the only station on the line that people actually live near.
I disagree Rosa Parks Station is the one that should have been torched!!!
Quote from: Coolyfett on April 06, 2009, 07:38:12 PM
Riverplace Station is the only station on the line that people actually live near.
I disagree Rosa Parks Station is the one that should have been torched!!!
You just had to go all racial didn't you, wink.
QuoteI dunno, it sounds like what Ock mentioned may actually be coming to fruition. I would honestly hope so, this has too much potential to leave as is.
I agree Red Navy. I
really agree with this thought.
Do you, or are you trying to troll me? 8)
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 06, 2009, 07:34:32 PM
All who champion mass transit acknowledge that other projects are more worthy of scarce dollars at this time. All they are saying is that if tied properly to other forms of mass transit the skyway will become what it was intended and therefore worthy of expansion at some time in the future.
"what it was intended" = "It was mainly for political reasons, not transportation reasons," explained former Rep. Bob Carr, who chaired the committee that approved funding for transportation projects in the early 1990s. "Like so many projects, they get a camel's nose under the tent and then it gets very very difficult to stop them."
Pork barrel, plain and simple. Intentions and more fulfilled galore!
everyone listen to stjr...he clearly is the only one who is non-biased here
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 06, 2009, 08:27:16 PM
everyone listen to stjr...he clearly is the only one who is non-biased here
"You are either with us or against us. Let's not let the facts get in the way!"
Is George W. Bush, Jr., lurking here? ;)
Those ridership projections made back in the mid 1970s assumed a much more robust downtown. Southpoint was just so much cow pasture at the time. Should the folks making the projections have foreseen the growth of the JTB corridor - when JTB hadn't even been built?
If the downtown of 2009 were what was projected in 1975, this Board would have a completely different focus.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 06, 2009, 09:09:46 PM
Those ridership projections made back in the mid 1970s assumed a much more robust downtown. Southpoint was just so much cow pasture at the time. Should the folks making the projections have foreseen the growth of the JTB corridor - when JTB hadn't even been built?
If the downtown of 2009 were what was projected in 1975, this Board would have a completely different focus.
So if the projections were made in the early 70's and construction wasn't even started until the mid 1980's, then was it really too much to ask that someone get their calculator out and make up some new projections before deciding to waste all that money? ???
QuoteSo if this line was extended down riverside avenue and over the railroad tracks east of San Marco Square, imagine what you would get.
You would get more of the same. Wasted dollars on a system that does not go to the people. How many live downtown again on a FULL TIME BASIS?
QuoteSo if this line was extended down riverside avenue and over the railroad tracks east of San Marco Square, imagine what you would get.
You would get more of the same. Wasted dollars on a system that does not go to the people. How many live downtown again on a FULL TIME BASIS?
That's the point. Extending into Riverside and deeper into San Marco would bring the skyway to the people WHERE THEY LIVE and take them into downtown to work & play. Also downtown IS growing in residency... people are moving there and living DT full time.
I honestly don't care if the skyway was originally built for political reasons. What I do care about is that it that it's not far off of being actually useful.
QuoteThe 2.5-mile Jacksonville Automated Skyway Express is a model of efficiency. Completely automated and controlled from a central operation center
The train / system IS great! Get it to go somewhere and it would be looked up to by other cities. It was said we can have less costly and "we don't need flashy"... with that logic we might as well build a bunch of HUD houses and see if that brings people in from the burbs. A flashy effecient way to get to all the places I want to go... who needs that right?
StJr, I don't think many here would argue that fact that the Skyway was illconceived and poorly planned from the beginning no matter what the influences were (political or other). What many of us are saying is that it would be insane to abandon what could easily be a successful system for moving people in and around the downtown area. Some of the members here make up a few of the 3,000 daily riders and I'm sure they would be upset if the system was canned or left as-is.
Although the proposed anchor projects originally planned to work with the system have been lost, there has still been residential development that is reaping the benefits of the system and its limited reach (note the three new residential towers on the southbank). DT Jacksonville has not grown as fast as projected 10 years ago when the system was "finished", but it HAS still grown somewhat.
Think of Brooklyn Park. It was/is to be another HUGE boon to the DT core and the skyway's usefulness. Those residents would have enjoyed the added mobility from the system. Also, the still proposed Jackson Square and Bay Street Station. Both of which mention utilizing the skyway as an added ammenity of the development. In fact, Bay Street Station is supposed to engulf the Jefferson station completely and integrate it into the development and Jackson Square mentions expanding the line into San Marco.
The largest missing link the lacking connection of the rest of the metro area. Once a commuter system is up and running that will feed riders into the existing skyway, the possibilities are endless.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 06, 2009, 09:33:06 PM
So if the projections were made in the early 70's and construction wasn't even started until the mid 1980's, then was it really too much to ask that someone get their calculator out and make up some new projections before deciding to waste all that money? ???
once again...the skyway was funded through a Federal demonstration project...if Jax. didn't the money, some other City would have...kind of like Charlotte gettig Orlando's light rail $
Quote from: reednavy on April 06, 2009, 07:59:46 PM
Do you, or are you trying to troll me? 8)
Troll You?
Id like to see Jacksonville create a lifestyle for people who do not support the auto industry. Not sure if that is trolling you, it is just where I stand on the topic. Sorry for the confusion.
Quote from: Shwaz on April 07, 2009, 09:33:55 AM
QuoteSo if this line was extended down riverside avenue and over the railroad tracks east of San Marco Square, imagine what you would get.
You would get more of the same. Wasted dollars on a system that does not go to the people. How many live downtown again on a FULL TIME BASIS?
That's the point. Extending into Riverside and deeper into San Marco would bring the skyway to the people WHERE THEY LIVE and take them into downtown to work & play. Also downtown IS growing in residency... people are moving there and living DT full time.
I honestly don't care if the skyway was originally built for political reasons. What I do care about is that it that it's not far off of being actually useful.
I
really agree with this post by Shwaz. People actually do live in Riverside, Springfield and San Marco, some of the younger Gen X and older Gen Y lives in these areas of Jacksonville. Waiting to build the train to yulee or orange park is crazy and I never understand why people mention it. Its ok to say it is a waste of money if you love driving and live near 17 and 295, but you have people in Riverside who work in San Marco, play in Springfield and this same person has to pay for JTB to be widened or repaved. How much did JTB cost? How much did 295 cost? I mean there are many in Jax that do not use these concrete slabes, but are still forced to pay for that option of transportation. I remember when the gas prices were going crazy and some posters on here were screaming that the sky was falling!!!! Luckily for the SUV owner the gas prices dropped, but who is say what happened will not happen again and be worse then what it was. People say supply this and demand that but peoples driving habits have not changed a bit. Cars were everywhere then and they are everywhere now. Jacksonville should at least create the option for those that no longer want to deal with the pain and hassle of the auto industry.
^This is why I fully endorse the creation of a starter rail line, even if its under five miles in length. Its taken over 40 years to complete the 295/9A loop. It will probably take just as long to build a regional rail system that stretches into the boonies. However, we can immediately move forward by reconnecting our urban core communities (the actual real city with decent density), giving residents a real choice of how and where they choose to live and commute.
Quote from: Shwaz on April 07, 2009, 09:33:55 AM
That's the point. Extending into Riverside and deeper into San Marco would bring the skyway to the people WHERE THEY LIVE and take them into downtown to work & play. Also downtown IS growing in residency... people are moving there and living DT full time.
I honestly don't care if the skyway was originally built for political reasons. What I do care about is that it that it's not far off of being actually useful.
QuoteThe 2.5-mile Jacksonville Automated Skyway Express is a model of efficiency. Completely automated and controlled from a central operation center
The train / system IS great! Get it to go somewhere and it would be looked up to by other cities. It was said we can have less costly and "we don't need flashy"... with that logic we might as well build a bunch of HUD houses and see if that brings people in from the burbs. A flashy effecient way to get to all the places I want to go... who needs that right?
BRAVO MI AMIGO! BRAVO! Excellent post. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 11, 2009, 07:35:14 PM
Quote from: Shwaz on April 07, 2009, 09:33:55 AM
That's the point. Extending into Riverside and deeper into San Marco would bring the skyway to the people WHERE THEY LIVE and take them into downtown to work & play. Also downtown IS growing in residency... people are moving there and living DT full time.
I honestly don't care if the skyway was originally built for political reasons. What I do care about is that it that it's not far off of being actually useful.
QuoteThe 2.5-mile Jacksonville Automated Skyway Express is a model of efficiency. Completely automated and controlled from a central operation center
The train / system IS great! Get it to go somewhere and it would be looked up to by other cities. It was said we can have less costly and "we don't need flashy"... with that logic we might as well build a bunch of HUD houses and see if that brings people in from the burbs. A flashy effecient way to get to all the places I want to go... who needs that right?
BRAVO MI AMIGO! BRAVO! Excellent post.
OCKLAWAHA
Please explain. Ock, you already agreed that the $ky-high-way would not be a good candidate to go into the existing residential or historic town center areas of San Marco and Riverside. So how is Shwaz going to fulfill the dream you proclaim as "excellent"? He wants the expansion to "where they live". I don't think you two are singing the same song.
As to his comment about people living downtown, they are, but as the numbers show, while downtown residency has climbed the ridership has dropped by over 40%. So what is the correlation to "excellence" here?
This looks more like "lipstick on the pig" cheerleading. I'm still looking for common sense on this subject. This discussion just shows how much is missing.
QuoteI'm still looking for common sense on this subject. This discussion just shows how much is missing.
There has been alot of common sense discussion on this subject. You simply refuse to be a part of it. Your mind is made up. This is clear by you constant reference to the $ky-high-way. From what I can see common sense discussion on this subject should revolve around demolition of the entire project. This is not a common sense solution but a "throw the baby out with the bath water" solution.
Lake, Ock and most others favor have
repeatedly stated that other modes of mass transit should be expanded linking them to the skyway before adding to it.
THAT my friend
IS common sense.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/2866119790_6610098b3e.jpg)
Central Station and not a sheltered link to a single passenger producing building.
Quote from: stjr on April 12, 2009, 12:05:49 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 11, 2009, 07:35:14 PM
Quote from: Shwaz on April 07, 2009, 09:33:55 AM
That's the point. Extending into Riverside and deeper into San Marco would bring the skyway to the people WHERE THEY LIVE and take them into downtown to work & play. Also downtown IS growing in residency... people are moving there and living DT full time.
I honestly don't care if the skyway was originally built for political reasons. What I do care about is that it that it's not far off of being actually useful.
QuoteThe 2.5-mile Jacksonville Automated Skyway Express is a model of efficiency. Completely automated and controlled from a central operation center
The train / system IS great! Get it to go somewhere and it would be looked up to by other cities. It was said we can have less costly and "we don't need flashy"... with that logic we might as well build a bunch of HUD houses and see if that brings people in from the burbs. A flashy efficient way to get to all the places I want to go... who needs that right?
BRAVO MI AMIGO! BRAVO! Excellent post.
OCKLAWAHA
Please explain. Ock, you already agreed that the $ky-high-way would not be a good candidate to go into the existing residential or historic town center areas of San Marco and Riverside. So how is Shwaz going to fulfill the dream you proclaim as "excellent"? He wants the expansion to "where they live". I don't think you two are singing the same song.
As to his comment about people living downtown, they are, but as the numbers show, while downtown residency has climbed the ridership has dropped by over 40%. So what is the correlation to "excellence" here?
This looks more like "lipstick on the pig" cheerleading. I'm still looking for common sense on this subject. This discussion just shows how much is missing.
Same Tune stjr, all transit must have producer stations (IE: Large employment towers, hospitals etc.) During a single lunch hour a couple of large office towers should be able to produce a couple thousand riders. You also must have attractor stations (IE: Destinations, homes, condos, specialty locations etc). Places people want to go, but ususally in small groups or batches. Shwaz, and Bridge Troll get it. You must have stations that produce ridership and stations that attract those riders.
In the case of the Skyway we have no producer stations and managed to miss the attractors.
So what is the correlation to "excellence" here? The correlation is to the statement Shwaz made, "What I do care about is that it that it's not far off of being actually useful." fact is 11E, The Carlton, Metropolitan Lofts, Churchwell Lofts are all downtown and not close to the Skyway. Even The Strand and the collection of towers around it are cut off from the Skyway and have no direct access. By the time one walks around "Cape Horn" to get to Riverplace they are more likely just to drive from curbside.
You said, "I'm still looking for common sense on this subject. This discussion just shows how much is missing." The only thing missing is your refusal to read what we have all posted. The Skyway is NOT the end all and be all of mass transit. In fact it is more of a horizontal elevator then a transit "system". But it's an elevator that only goes to 3 out of a dozen or more floors. What is missing is about 3 miles of line and stations. Without infringing on the historic districts the Skyway could still string together: Baptist Hospital, San Marco (using the railroad alignment), North Riverside - Blue Cross, FCCJ, Brooklyn, BOA, Hyatt, Berkman, Churchwell, Police Station/Jail, Baseball Grounds, Metropolitan Park, Arena, Metropolitan Stadium. Perhaps even someday a new Convention Center and Courthouse.
That's not lipstick on a pig, more like setting a couple of broken bones on Playboys Miss April... Even the surgery might be exciting.OCKLAWAHA
Riverplace Station remains closed, but service has been restored to the Kings Avenue Station.
QuoteWhile the cause of the fire has not yet been determined, JTA spokesperson Mike Miller said it was most likely an electrical malfunction.
Eventually the station will be returned to service and will be designed to match the previous station, but that may be a while.
“It’s not even out for bid yet, so we don’t have a date when Riverplace will reopen,†said Miller.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=52191 (http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=52191)
At least Kings Avenue is open for buisness again.
Has this gone out for bids yet?
I have a feeling that I will be looking at that burned out roof for several more months (maybe years ???).
Yea i found this out the hard way...was trying to get to the Peninsula via SkyWay last week. Had to walk from Kings.. i was wondering what happened.
It'll happen soon enough, it's all being done the old fashioned way - INSURANCE CLAIM!
OCKLAWAHA
It seems like an awful long time to do a repair that really should not be that difficult. It seems to me that the damage was pretty limited to the roof.
Good thing there are not many people that depend on it. Even if it opens again I will use it less than before simply because they cut the hours. No more taking it over to Central or Hemming for dinner at Chew. It shuts down at 9. And I think it shuts down at 7 on Saturdays.
:(