QuotePro and Con: Florida commuter rail
(The following editorial appeared on the Florida Times-Union website on March 9, 2009.)
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. â€"
Pro: Communter rail deal offers many benefits
Florida stands on the threshold of doing something every other state wants to do: give its citizens a green option to driving on congested highways.
It's called SunRail, a visionary effort in the Orlando area that deserves our support.
It's important to Jacksonville because it includes funding for needed rail infrastructure for Jacksonville's port and it keeps Florida high on the priority list for federal funding of other commuter rail initiatives.
But more than that, final approval from the Florida Legislature for SunRail would help jump start Florida's economy and ease highway congestion.
And it will improve the environment by shifting freight to rail, which can move a ton of freight more than 423 miles on a gallon of fuel.
As part of the SunRail agreement, Jacksonville-based CSX would sell 61 miles of its mainline track through Central Florida.
Think of it as a rail version of Interstate 95 to the state for use in creating the new commuter rail service.
SunRail would serve the City of Orlando and Orange, Osceola, Seminole and Volusia counties.
These communities have pledged to match $150 million in state funds to help deliver over $300 million in added federal funding support.
That means jobs and economic stimulus - all documented in an economic impact report from the Florida Department of Transportation.
This innovative agreement is much less expensive than trying to carve a new commuter track through the heart of downtown Orlando.
At the same time, it maintains CSX's ability to deliver freight by fuel-efficient and environmentally friendly rail, something policymakers all over the country believe is the transportation wave of the future.
We're working with the state to designate proceeds from the sale to expand capacity on an alternate freight line, and to minimize with highway overpasses, side tracks and state-of-the-art signaling any impacts on communities that will see additional freight trains.
As they have been for more than 100 years, railroads are the circulatory system of Florida's economy.
They help get goods cost-effectively to Florida consumers, and make Florida goods more competitive around the globe.
In addition to the proposed JaxPort Connector, CSX will build a state-of-the-art freight terminal in Winter Haven on a site formerly occupied by the city's wastewater treatment facility.
That project alone will create nearly 700 construction jobs.
U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Jacksonville, and Gov. Charlie Crist and other state officials have joined city and county leaders in Orlando and Tampa who say this is the right option, right now.
The opponents have dwindled to a few who maintain that one of Florida's largest shovel-ready projects needs more study, more meetings and more delay.
CSX and its predecessor railroads have served Florida since 1837. Today, CSX employs more than 6,000 Floridians.
We're proud to call Florida home, and proud to be part of this innovative solution to solving transportation challenges.
We want to be part of helping restart our economy and getting Florida moving again.
Louis Renjel
* * *
Con: High costs cannot be justified today
During the 2008 legislative session, a group of lawmakers and lobbyists tried unsuccessfully to pass legislation that would have given CSX Transportation hundreds of millions in taxpayer dollars for upkeep and improvements on its freight rail lines.
They tried to sell the proposal to my colleagues as an opportunity for commuter rail in Central Florida.
However, the facts didn't add up then and they still don't today.
Many of the same players are back this year.
This is a freight deal, in which the state commits to help finance CSX's long-term business plan for Florida by upgrading tracks and rerouting trains. This deal carries untold millions in risk and a price tag that escalates by the day.
The cost of the CSX project is at least $2.6 billion. This accounts for $795 million in state money, $764 million in local government funding and uncommitted federal funding.
The winner in the proposed legislation is CSX. The state will pay CSX $432 million to buy Sunrail's 61-mile Orlando-area rail corridor and to improve CSX freight tracks in other parts of the state. In addition, the state is paying $214 million for new overpasses to accommodate the CSX deal.
However you define the purchase price, which was calculated at the height of Florida's land value bubble, the CSX transaction is the most expensive per mile rail acquisition in the history of the United States.
The state faces a fiscal crisis of unprecedented magnitude and legislation is advancing in Tallahassee that carries a $2.6 billion price tag.
More Floridians are saying clearly that they want their leaders to be responsible stewards of taxpayer dollars. Yet, groups in Tallahassee continue to press forward with a project of unprecedented expense and a huge private corporate welfare component without regard to the growing challenges our families face.
Just as amazing is the fact that according to the Florida Department of Transportation, the proposed commuter rail project will in 17 years and at full operation have projected ridership of 13,700.
The immediate ridership models are roughly 3,500 passengers a day. This means the Legislature would be spending $2.6 billion for a maximum of 13,700 passengers to use this line each day.
At the same time, CSX's state-funded freight realignment plans will bring more industrial freight rail traffic and disruptions into a number of west Central Florida communities, none of which were consulted about this deal.
We can better use these hundreds of millions of dollars sitting in our trust funds to fund our public education system, health care for our children and seniors, and local area transportation projects and economic development programs that will create lasting jobs for our citizens.
The people of Florida are on the losing end of this deal. Floridians will continue to see critical services cut while handing over their tax money as a profit cushion for CSX while also assuming liability for the company's misconduct and negligence.
I wholeheartedly support commuter rail. We should not allow state officials to use the legitimate pursuit of a commuter rail plan to disguise a multi-hundred-million dollar handout to a very profitable corporation.
The deal, while very sweet for CSX, is the wrong deal for Florida right now and one that will not deliver quality and sustainable commuter rail.
Paula Dockery
http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=25458
This is a tough issue because both points of view are essentially correct.
On one hand, the PRO argument is absolutely right. This commuter rail is a fantastic development not only for Orlando, but Jacksonville as well.
On the other hand, the main CON argument makes a great point too. The project is too damn expensive. One of the biggest advantages of commuter rail is its extremely low cost. It boggles the mind how much the price tag has been needlessly inflated. It's turned into typical government waste that shows how bankrupt our bureaucrats have become.
I want to see commuter rail very badly ... but the people who are managing to spend over 2 billion dollars need to be fired.
If the money was invested in Amtrak, a corridor service could be created for all of Florida. This is something that Amtrak wants to do but does not have a commitment from the state.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/467547083_Tkz8B-M.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/1004
QuoteAmtrak California is a Caltrans and Amtrak partnership
In many states, intercity passenger train service is provided solely by Amtrak without assistance from state or local governments. This level of service is generally limited to a few long distance trains and a small number of short distance trains operating within the state.
However, since 1976, the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) has been promoting intercity passenger rail service in California by augmenting Amtrak's basic system of interstate trains. Through Caltrans, the State of California provides capital grants and support for station and track improvements, signaling, locomotives and cars, connecting Amtrak Thruway bus service, and operating assistance for the Pacific Surfliner®, San Joaquin® and Capitol Corridor®.
These trains, collectively referred to as Amtrak California, operate in addition to Amtrak's own interstate trains -- the Coast Starlight, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, and Sunset Limited - connecting California with the rest of the country.
Dockery is inflating numbers big time to push the cost up over $2 billion. Its pretty hypocritical since its her husband who's pushing the Big Dig like high speed rail plan. The commuter rail numbers are a drop in the bucket compared to that thing. Her $2.6 billion figure includes decades of annual O&M costs but leaves out ticket revenue, the $10 million a year CSX will pay to the state to use the tracks in the Orlando area and the savings of not having to add additional lanes to I-4 in Orlando. She is also lumping in highway overpasses that were already planned by the State. Regardless, if commuter rail happens or not, those overpasses would be built over the tracks in cities like Ocala anyway.
I also agree that the Orlando plan is expensive, but her argument would be stronger if she would not distort the facts. As for the Orlando plan, the capital costs can be reduced if they went with a "no-frills" implementation plan instead of going "balls-to-the-walls" right out the box. Right now they have a system proposed that includes a 61 mile double tracked line and Tri-Rail like stations with elevated platforms over the tracks. They could also save money by purchasing used rolling stock from other transit authorities. I guess this type of overbuilding is what happens when public entities call the shots.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2009, 08:27:04 AM
QuotePro and Con: Florida commuter rail
(The following editorial appeared on the Florida Times-Union website on March 9, 2009.)
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. â€"
Con: High costs cannot be justified today
Just as amazing is the fact that according to the Florida Department of Transportation, the proposed commuter rail project will in 17 years and at full operation have projected ridership of 13,700.
The immediate ridership models are roughly 3,500 passengers a day. This means the Legislature would be spending $2.6 billion for a maximum of 13,700 passengers to use this line each day.
At the same time, CSX's state-funded freight realignment plans will bring more industrial freight rail traffic and disruptions into a number of west Central Florida communities, none of which were consulted about this deal.
We can better use these hundreds of millions of dollars sitting in our trust funds to fund our public education system, health care for our children and seniors, and local area transportation projects and economic development programs that will create lasting jobs for our citizens.
Paula Dockery
http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=25458
How odd that Paula thinks we'll only get 13,700 passengers on the Commuter Rail from city center to city center, 17 years from now. All of this on a system she blasts for costing as much as $2 Billion dollars. But Paula wants high speed rail, and she is prepaired to dump the budget on this pie-in-the-sky idea, an idea she is sure will carry 1,000,000 passengers a year, or 2,739 daily at a cost of $43,000,000,000 BILLION dollars. Way to go Paula, responsibility and stewardship are traits to be admired.
In other words your bullet train (with only 8 Orlando-Tampa trips per day) will cost $43 Billion dollars and carry 10,860 passengers LESS then the Sunrail train that will cost $2.6 Billion.
The communities were not consulted on the new "industrial freight rail traffic and disruptions." Really Paula? Will the railroads just haul cars down there and move them around because they can, or, could it be there is new industry that requires the new trains and alignments. New Industry, I bet the Industrial Development Commission of each respective town, city and county didn't know a thing about it.
BTW Paula, if option 1A or 1B is the preferred alignment, we'll even gain back our Amtrak connections between West Palm - Miami and Ocala - Gainesville. GAIN Paula, as in "to add to..."
It's okay, I understand how unfair CSX and the evil politicians in Tallahassee have been to Central Florida. The endless delays, hearings, and demands are all because we didn't seek the opinion of one single town. Is that what you think we really believe?
"We can better use these hundreds of millions of dollars sitting in our trust funds to fund our public education system," why Paula? We finally agree on something. Maybe they'll offer a class in railroad 101 and you can be the first student? Perhaps then you will understand what the hell your talking about.
Oh and Paula, just two more things, "local area transportation projects and economic development programs that will create lasting jobs for our citizens," Somebody quick tell those boys and girls down at CSX, FEC and NS that they don't have any economic opportunities because they don't have lasting jobs. Paula? Please explain to me why one speed of train creates jobs in your imagination and another speed of train doesn't?
Lastly, you left out everybodys favorite argument. Commuter Rail won't cover it's operating costs!
Oh my god, neither will High Speed Rail, The Matthews Bridge, Lane Avenue or JTB. Guess we shouldn't have built them. Ocklawaha
Amtrak might have some problems with CSX in serving the Lakeland-Tampa area...that's part of the reason there has been such limited passenger rail service on that line....and instead, it is served by bus
Tampa and Lakeland are served Amtrak's Silver Star (New York - Miami).
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 10, 2009, 04:41:10 PM
Amtrak might have some problems with CSX in serving the Lakeland-Tampa area...that's part of the reason there has been such limited passenger rail service on that line....and instead, it is served by bus
I believe you are thinking of the Tampa - Clearwater - St. Pete line which was given over to bus mostly because there was no local passenger business to speak of. Still an error, as it forced long distance travelers (who could have cared less about the 40 miles around the bay) to end their journeys in Tampa and transfer to bus.
The state and Amtrak are looking at the 5 train plan for Tampa too, which would mean 10 each way daily between Tampa and Lakeland, 5 headed for Orlando - Jax, and 5 headed for Miami.
The Option 1A and 1B is between Wildwood and Auburndale, and will bypass Lakeland. It's the old Seaboard passenger main that the Great State of Florida let CSX rip out a few years ago... OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Lunican on March 10, 2009, 02:04:34 PM
If the money was invested in Amtrak, a corridor service could be created for all of Florida. This is something that Amtrak wants to do but does not have a commitment from the state.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/467547083_Tkz8B-M.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/1004
QuoteAmtrak California is a Caltrans and Amtrak partnership
In many states, intercity passenger train service is provided solely by Amtrak without assistance from state or local governments. This level of service is generally limited to a few long distance trains and a small number of short distance trains operating within the state.
However, since 1976, the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) has been promoting intercity passenger rail service in California by augmenting Amtrak's basic system of interstate trains. Through Caltrans, the State of California provides capital grants and support for station and track improvements, signaling, locomotives and cars, connecting Amtrak Thruway bus service, and operating assistance for the Pacific Surfliner®, San Joaquin® and Capitol Corridor®.
These trains, collectively referred to as Amtrak California, operate in addition to Amtrak's own interstate trains -- the Coast Starlight, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, and Sunset Limited - connecting California with the rest of the country.
Thank you Lunican, this is exactly what I will be fighting for.
The interesting thing is that the federal
stimulus money would fund such a project 100% rather than the usual 80/20 or worse split, where we'd need state funding as well. So we do NOT need commitment from the State for this!!!!!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 10, 2009, 04:02:19 PM
How odd that Paula thinks we'll only get 13,700 passengers on the Commuter Rail from city center to city center, 17 years from now. All of this on a system she blasts for costing as much as $2 Billion dollars. But Paula wants high speed rail, and she is prepaired to dump the budget on this pie-in-the-sky idea, an idea she is sure will carry 1,000,000 passengers a year, or 2,739 daily at a cost of $43,000,000,000 BILLION dollars. Way to go Paula, responsibility and stewardship are traits to be admired.
In other words your bullet train (with only 8 Orlando-Tampa trips per day) will cost $43 Billion dollars and carry 10,860 passengers LESS then the Sunrail train that will cost $2.6 Billion.
The communities were not consulted on the new "industrial freight rail traffic and disruptions." Really Paula? Will the railroads just haul cars down there and move them around because they can, or, could it be there is new industry that requires the new trains and alignments. New Industry, I bet the Industrial Development Commission of each respective town, city and county didn't know a thing about it.
Ocklawaha, can you give me the source for the cost and ridership for highspeed rail?
I also happen to support highspeed rail, especially since the stimulus money will provide 100% funding for its construction.
Quote"For short to medium-distance trips of 100 to 500 miles, enhanced passenger rail service can offer travel-time advantages over air and highway transportation, the (National Surface Transportation Policy and Revenue Study) commission said."
http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/32433324.html
But even without travel-time advantages citizens may want to ride the train anyway, because of the convenience in terms of no parking needs and also for environmental reasons:
"Amtrak intercity passenger rail uses 17% less energy per passenger mile than airlines and 21% less than cars."
Faye, where do you find that stimulus money will fund high speed rail 100%? From everything I've read to date, the money set aside won't fund one true high speed rail line anywhere in the US. It will only help increase travel times on existing rail corridors.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2009, 10:03:56 PM
Faye, where do you find that stimulus money will fund high speed rail 100%? From everything I've read to date, the money set aside won't fund one true high speed rail line anywhere in the US. It will only help increase travel times on existing rail corridors.
thelakelander, I will look for the article that expressed concern about transportation project selection, and that the normal vetting would be lacking, since no matching state money was needed for the use of stimulus money,......which could lead to waste etc.
I can't find that article, but here is one where the 100% federal funding of projects is mentioned. BTW it makes sense not to require matching state funds since states are cash strapped and besides the point was to put the money to use quickly without another layer of discussions to come up with trying to get those matching state funds.
So here is one place where they mention the 100% stimulus funding for transportation projects:
QuoteAll stimulus funds (except enhancement funds used for non-highway projects such as bike lanes) will be provided at 100 percent funding ratio; no local matches will be required.
http://www.news-gazette.com/news/state_regional/2009/02/26/million_earmarked_from_stimulus_package (http://www.news-gazette.com/news/state_regional/2009/02/26/million_earmarked_from_stimulus_package)
But you might be right on the 8 billion for high-speed only being enough to upgrade existing rail,.........it seems I've read that somewhere too.
Anyway, I think it is foolish for Florida not to go after free fedearl monies that can provide jobs for Florida:
QuoteHigh-speed rail depends on Crist, board says
Dan Tracy | Sentinel Staff Writer
February 27, 2009
Gov. Charlie Crist is the only person who stands between a hungry group of high-speed-train enthusiasts and a shot at as much as $2 billion in federal tax dollars.
Crist's backing is key to the hopes of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority, which met for the first time in more than four years Thursday and wants to apply for some of the nearly $800 billion Congress is making available to reinvigorate the failing economy.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-loc-high-speed-rail-crist-022709,0,4815309.story (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-loc-high-speed-rail-crist-022709,0,4815309.story)
I'm sorry I haven't made it to the Tuesday meetings, but I'm still very much involved.
Also, my son and I were covered by the Orlando Sentinel today on the front page!!!
I live in StJohns in Fruit Cove, so is there anyway I can share that article here on metrojacksonville?
Sure. What was the subject of the article? That will determine the best forum board to post the article in.
QuoteAnyway, I think it is foolish for Florida not to go after free fedearl monies that can provide jobs for Florida:
I agree, I just hope its put to a project that actually makes sense (ex. establishing a corridor service vs. HSR in the median of I-4). We'll get more out of the dollar if we apply it to a realistic solution.
QuoteAll stimulus funds (except enhancement funds used for non-highway projects such as bike lanes) will be provided at 100 percent funding ratio; no local matches will be required.
I wonder about this one. So far it does not appear the stimulus package contains enough money to fund major rail transit projects 100%.
The article was about stem cell research. How do I get it posted? Do I send it to one of you?
It will probably be best if you start a new thread "News" section under the community board (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/board,11.0.html).
All you have to do is click on the "new topic" button in that board, then cut and paste the article along with a link, the way you quoted the high speed rail article in the post you made earlier.
Quote from: FayeforCure on March 10, 2009, 09:37:06 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 10, 2009, 04:02:19 PM
How odd that Paula thinks we'll only get 13,700 passengers daily, on the Commuter Rail, from city center to city center, 17 years from now. All of this on a system she blasts for costing as much as $2 Billion dollars. But Paula wants high speed rail, and she is prepaired to dump the budget on this pie-in-the-sky idea, an idea she is sure will carry 1,000,000 passengers a year, or 2,739 daily at a cost of $43,000,000,000 BILLION dollars. Way to go Paula, responsibility and stewardship are traits to be admired.
Ocklawaha, can you give me the source for the cost and ridership for highspeed rail?
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FlyingElephantsLaurelandHardyanimat.gif)
Sure Faye, it's at: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/uploaddocuments/p25/Exec%20Summary%20FINAL1.pdf
Most of it in item 8 and 9, but some scattered throughout the report.
I'm not against High Speed Rail as a concept if its restricted to a few dense corridors of 300-500 miles. (I'm not against flying elephants either, but they'll have a better chance for success in Florida then flying trains). More then this and the airplane rules, less then this and Amtrak would do better. In the case of Florida, I can't see a single thing in the FOX HSR plan that would cause me to think it might work. IT WON'T, at least not the way they have it laid out. "DUM R UUS!"
FDOT doesn't have railroaders making these plans, so we get brilliant schemes like building down the center of an interstate highway when an 80-90 MPH rail line is just 1,000 yards away. Missing Jacksonville, in fact ALL of North Florida even though they plan to send the Northeast Corridor SOUTH to Jacksonville. Guess those people will walk or go Greyhound between Jax and Orlando. Worse still they plan to build a Northern route from Orlando to LAKE CITY! Idiots! These Florida planners seem to be setting the stage for train runways, passenger cabooses, and chugging electrics. ONLY IN FLORIDA! (http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/lightningandTRACTION-1-1.jpg)