Metro Jacksonville

There probably isn't a person in Jacksonville that's better suited to help get the Riverside Arts Market off the ground.  With his connections throughout the city, this should really help bring top-notch talent to the market.

Excellent choice!

Good choice!  It is opening this month right?  Pass the word... :)

Official opening is April 4th. They've also just secured a $10,000 donation to establish a Children's Art tent, so there will lots of market activities for the little ones, too. I got a peek at some of the vendor applications and there's some seriously great stuff.  Not just the art, but food, too.  One guy sent drool-worthy photos of his homemade pies, including one that features steak and Guinness. Yum!

Sounds about right. Good pick.

This should be a great Market.

I've met with Tony a couple of times since the announcement and he's impressive. He recapped the market sponsorships to date: $25,000 from Winn Dixie (included in this is a commitment to fund a "new baker" program for women from Hubbard House; $25K in-kind from WJCT, and something like $30K in-kind from the Times Union. If you add that to the $10K cash from a local couple for the Children's Creativity Corner at the market, that's a pretty impressive commitment to the Arts from little 'ole JAX. Oh, and someone has offered to underwrite the vendor costs for organic farmers for the first six months.  Boo yah!

Sure would be great if JTA could find funding available to run the Riverside Trolley to the Art Market! I know that there is supposed to be about 1,000 parking spaces in nearby lots, but what a crowded mess that will all be, especially with the construction going on Riverside . I think that there would be lots of interest in having the trolley--especially bring folks from the downtown area to the market, and back again. I believe that JTA would actually break even or even make a profit.

The market has secured Water Taxi service, which will land at Fidelity's dock, so that should alleviate some congestion. Biking and the River Walk are other good options!

It really is only a half hour walk from the landing.

Definitely good choice.

Prop's to Tony!

Any chance of it being open on Fridays in the future?   I'd love to visit during my lunch hour(s) since I work downtown.

I can't wait!

I think, long-term, they'd like to expand to Sundays, but I don't think Fridays are in the plan.

Doesn't look like that will work... It is fully used as a parking lot Monday thru Friday

I walked through the grounds this morning and it looks like their was some unexpected problems. Quite a bit of the amphitheater has been dug up which was previously covered with mulch. I hope this doesn't cause any delays.

Maybe friday evenings, but yeah, they cant do it at lunchtime on Fridays. It is a corporate parking lot.

I'm really excited for this Saturday.

I'm looking forward to it, as well.  We'll definitely have our Metro Jacksonville cameras out there.

I will be there in the afternoon... :)

Just wondering who from the mj boards were thinking about going to this?

I know I'll be there.  I just haven't decided whether I'm going to drive or take a bicycle.

QuoteThe quotes are a little breathless.  One wonders how the city will be revolutionized or made more New York Like, for example, or how the whole concept of urban living will be transformed, but the spirit of the thing is right.

Agreed. I think it's great for the neighborhood and even surrounding neighborhoods but not a total transformation of the city. Before my new position where I work I handled accounts mostly in Portland OR.
I asked people out there about their Saturday Market and a lot of them didn't know what I was talking about.
Others who were familliar with the Market said it was really great. I think Jacksonville will be simmilar.

personally I've been excited about this since it was posted here long ago. It would be nice to meet others from the MJ board. I hope to be there around noon.

I just wanted to get an idea of how many people where thinking of going from the boards.

I've been excited by this place too since I heard the news. I donno I guess I want to make sure I tell as many people about it.

I'm going to be there in the morning until about noon, helping direct people to where they need to be.  Make sure you come by the RAP table and enter the "Paint My House" contest!

Should be quite a scene.  There will be a ton of great music and a number of street performers, too.  I've got a very cool British Grocer's bike, which I plan on bringing home from the market loaded with goodies.

I'm will be there.... Bicycle from the Springy

MetroJacksonville needs a booth... 8)

I am going to check it out....riding the streetcar....ooops nevermind. :-)

The water taxi will drop you off there...

QuoteThe water taxi will drop you off there...

Is the river taxi running this weekend to the Art Market?

Yes... that is my understanding.

Here are some of the features you will enjoy at RAM:

RESTROOMS
INFORMATION BOOTH
ATM MACHINE
WATER FOUNTAINS
THE RIVER STAGE
BIKE RACKS
WATER TAXI TO THE LANDING
THE RIVERWALK

I plan on riding my bike there. I hope this brings out a lot of people and the vendors do well.

While talking about art there are two gallery receptions tonight as well. The Jean Gray gallery and Flux both have receptions 6-9 I believe.

Actually, the water taxi is off for now (the ferry folks wanted $1000 every Saturday to run the service and it was thought that kind of $ was better spent elsewhere); hopefully, the company will see all the potential traffic, recognize the business potential and lower their asking price.  However, if you go by bike, there will be a bike valet who'll watch over your bike and put air in your tires . . .

Thanks grimss... a friendly suggestion to update RAM website.  I am sure I was not the only person looking forward to a boatride to the event... :'(

South-banker's can still take the water taxi to the Landing and then it just a nice stroll up the north-bank riverwalk. I can see how that may be a death march in July... but tomorrow should be pretty nice.

Just got back from RAM. Not what I thought it was going to be. I liked it and it was a nice outing. Here's my thoughts.

It was more of a craft fair than I thought it would be. I saw a lot of women's jewelery and art(paintings and photography) but not much in terms of market. A few of local foods. Native Son had a booth as did Winn-Dixie along with some other small produce stands. My husband and I got meat pies from a British Pie Booth. We also got strawberry jam. My mother got some greens and a necklace. We both got cakes.

It seem to be more of a once a month type of thing than a every week thing. To clarify, I can buy produce every week but a wall painting every so often. There wasn't a lot of things that made me want to come back week after week (produce, breads, flowers, etc)

My parents who live out in Fleming Island had never been that close to downtown and thought the river views were nice. Lots of people were eating out side and I saw a large number of people using the River walk. It was nice and shady with it being under the bridge.

Plenty of families, and pet owners too.

The drumming circle was nice but were loud enough that made it hard to talk to anyone.

I had no problem finding a place to park since I got there early and knew of the different lots available. My parents (with my mother being handcapt and not really able to walk long distances) had a harder time finding a place to park.

Crossing the street was troublesome. You pretty much had to run at your own risk. There was a JSO car but no one really helping you cross the street which can be a problem if you parked more towards the First Guaranty Bank area.

Overall I think it was fun. I may not go back every week like planned but it will be a nice fun thing to do every month or so.

I rode by on my morning ride and I agree with CrysG. It did seem to be a bit heavy on the craft fair side. I saw a few actual artists with actual art. But I didn't see a whole lot of produce. I'd like to see more independent dealers and I hope this doesn't turn into a weekly Riverside art festival (with lots of ocean paintings and sculptures made of driftwood.) It seems like it'll be a logistical nightmare to pull this off every weekend. I'm sure they have bugs to work out and I'm sure Tony will take all the good and bad into consideration.

All in all though, everyone seemed positive. It has a lot of promise and I hope it works out on a regular basis. But you know how people in Jax are. They get bored with things very quickly. Even though I didn't valet my bike (I just stopped and talked to people) the bike valet is a wonderful idea and looked like it worked out just fine. I just wish getting into the area was more bike friendly. The changes they made to Riverside Ave were about as chaotic as I thought they'd be.

There were several harrowing moments in the area, the worst of which was a man in an SUV not paying attention to the light and almost bowling me and several others over. It would be nice to see someone working the crosswalks. But I understand that leads to additional cost.

I'd give it a 6/10 so far. I'm sure they'll work out the bugs.

I spent about an hour down there.  The turnout was pretty good and it was refreshing seeing people walking the sidewalks along Riverside Avenue and the riverwalk.  My wife mentioned it was the first time she had seen that many people (on foot), in Jax, in years.  I hope in the future some deal can be worked out with the water taxi.  I think a stronger connection with DT and the hotels could lead to additional business opportunities.

This morning, I rode over (bicycles) with several neighbors...and the place was already packed. I agree that what there was in vendors was more along the lines of crafts. I would hope that they expand more on the fresh veggies and food vendors, as it was quite limited. It was nice and quite lively, but overall....not something that I'd visit very often. Still, I was glad to see such a turn out.

Here are a few images taken around noon.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/505195747_nDhPJ-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/505194482_kfPAt-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/505196659_SUJDm-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/505194936_iHfL5-M.jpg)

Wandered around a bit, it's definitely nice to have this event in the neighborhood.

However, I agree with the others who said it was pretty much just a craft fair. I was hoping for some turnout from some of the same painters and sculptors who participate Art Walk, and instead from what I could see, it just wound up being a bunch of ladies selling meat pies, jewelry, and birdhouses. I guess that's fine if you're into that, but for whatever reason I was expecting more 'art' and less 'crafts'...

That said, you couldn't possibly ask for a better day, it was gorgeous! This was also the first time I'd ever been under the bridge so that was definitely neat as well. But I just didn't see a single thing I wanted to buy. The only thing I could have justified buying was produce, but then who wants to walk around the rest of the day carrying it, especially when your car is blocks away?

I will definitely go back, but I think the ART Market needs some more ART if you catch my drift...

My wife and I went to RAM around 12:30.  I parked right next to the old firehouse and we walked the riverwalk to RAM.  It was great to see all the people on the riverwalk and I am sure a great many of them have never had the pleasure.  Opening day was a great success judging by the number of people... especially with Springing the blues, clay county fair and some other things going on in town.

I am sure the crowds will thin some and the vendors will change as spring turns to summer.

What a beautiful day to be out though!

Quote from: Springfielder on April 04, 2009, 03:18:49 PM
This morning, I rode over (bicycles) with several neighbors...and the place was already packed. I agree that what there was in vendors was more along the lines of crafts. I would hope that they expand more on the fresh veggies and food vendors, as it was quite limited. It was nice and quite lively, but overall....not something that I'd visit very often. Still, I was glad to see such a turn out.

Quote from: RiversideLoki on April 04, 2009, 02:29:57 PM
I rode by on my morning ride and I agree with CrysG. It did seem to be a bit heavy on the craft fair side. I saw a few actual artists with actual art. But I didn't see a whole lot of produce....

I think the RAM is great and hope it thrives.  It sounds like lots of planning, thought, effort and community support has been put into it.

But, I do think its organizers need to stick to what will work best for the concept and not try to be all things to all people.   IMHO, being a once-a-week, seasonal activity, RAM should focus on attracting visitors that will make spontaneous or impulsive decisions to visit - tourists, locals looking to take out of town relatives somewhere different, being a novel family outing, appealing to young people on a date, old people looking for adventure, or exercisers desiring a fun way to burn calories, etc.

Generating ongoing and repeat traffic is going to take continuous creativity and novelty to keep things fresh, exciting, and interesting.  RAM will need to regularly rotate a portion of their exhibitiors, entertainers, and food options, or at least their offerings, and look for the really outlandish and unusual.  People won't necessarily return for the same exact art or food, but they will come back to see changing entertainment, new displays, new or exotic art or food concepts.  No one, commented, but do they have street performers (prevalent at Jackson Square in New Orleans, Mallory Square in Key West, etc.)? Also, they probably should look at some interactive exhibits, activities, and shows that require audience participation and/or have changing themes (like jazz, sport, music, history, Navy, railroad, 4th of July, or Georgia/Florida week?!).  And, how about exploiting the river access with a boat show/parade, fireworks, sunset/sunrise viewings, boat rides, bringing in shrimp boats from Mayport to sell fish, a Cypress Gardens-style water skiing show, etc.

With food/produce, they should not bother trying to attract someone shopping their weekly food/produce needs.   They can't match the convenience, selection, and set up of a grocery store and that plus drive up parking at the Beaver Street Farmers Market (which, interestingly, is only 5 or 10 minutes away via Stockton Street).  Because food of almost any amount weighs a lot more than most people are willing to carry for any length time or distance, who is going to lug it around for an hour or more through an art market, street festival, or flea market and then walk a few hundred or thousand feet back to a car?  And, people aren't going to schedule their basic food needs around the RAM schedule when stores or the Farmers Market are open every day of the year, all day long.  What food should do great at RAM is impulse purchases like ready-to-eat, hand held/take out style foods, that are consumed on the spot - lunch, dinner, beverages, deserts, snacks - maybe, a Peterbrooke Chocalate booth.

I figured today would be their biggest crowd with it being a "grand opening" so I shied away.  But, I hope to go soon and see for myself what's up.  I like the tie in with the Riverwalk from downtown and look forward to maybe making my approach that way. Tie-ins to the Cummer Gallery and some restuarants within walking distance might also be a boost.  Maybe a portion of Riverside Avenue should be closed to cars (detour to Park?) while RAM is open.

I hope they refine the concept over time and it becomes as famous (or more so) as Mallory or Jackson Square. It wouldn't hurt if they not only promoted the event but the location by giving it an attractive name such as Riverside Square or Plaza.  That sounds a lot better than "under the I-95 Bridge" which, as I have noted elsewhere on MJ, is no site to behold! (see http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4347.0.html )

^They did have street performers today, as well as a continuous flow of musical acts.

Thanks for all the great feedback! I will definitely share with the RAMROD folks.

I was there almost the entire day, working the information booth and various other spots.  The crowds were amazing; someone who knows how to do this estimated, around 2pm, that about 20,000 people had passed through the market. WOW.

Personally, I loved the mix of products; there were funky embroidered items for babies (think colorful peace sign on a onesie), great jewelry, some impressive art (Kathy Stark's booth was fabulous), amazing brittle (the gal running the booth completely sold out), and some unusual produce. (I bought Taro and now have to figure out how to cook it).  I think the market's success will depend on an interesting--and ever-changing--mix of items.  The produce area was a huge hit; many of the farmers admitted they had underestimated what they'd sell.  Native Sun (who was there filling in until the market can attract enough local organic farmers) had to make three trips back to their warehouse for more produce.  The guy selling honey said he's going to have to get his bees into overdrive.  I think most vendors were extremely happy with their sales.

Since this is a brand new thing for JAX, a lot of stuff still needs to be worked out. I loved the drummers, but they were much too loud and overshadowed the main stage performers when they played.  The street performers (which I thought might be cheesy) were incredible, especially the escape artist who shackled himself in a straight jacket and hung upside down from a chain.  There were way too many people to make this an enjoyable weekly trip--once the crowds settle down, I can see myself biking up to the market for kale and more of the awesome Steak-and-Guinness pies we're enjoying for dinner this evening. (Those guys made out like bandits--they sold every single pie they had.)

The music was great, and the river venue is beautiful. The food vendor options were quite good, but the lines were WAY long, as were the bathroom lines. I got out of the market mid-day, and could tell that every single parking space ANYWHERE was taken. Again, it's a work in progress, and I'd really appreciate honest assessments from all of you so that I can pass them on, and the market can be improved.

All in all, though, I think it was a huge success. I was talking to Councilman Corrigan and we were both marveling at the numbers of people streaming down the Riverwalk to the market. THAT made the whole day for me.

Over 40,000 estimated.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-04-04/story/bridge_over_thousands_riverside_arts_market_a_splash (http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-04-04/story/bridge_over_thousands_riverside_arts_market_a_splash)

I agree with just about everything that's been said so far.  I was shocked at how many people were out.  I got to the market just before noon and it was almost hard to walk there were so many people.  I think that above all the fact that so many people came out bodes well for the future of the market.

I agree, I was expecting more 'art' and 'market' things than were there.  I was hoping to see more produce and food items (fresh baked bread, pastries, etc) than were there.  Personally, I don't mind lugging produce around but I've seen multiple people comment here that they don't so I guess I'm in the minority there.  I've always been underwhelmed by the Beaver St Farmers Market so I was hoping RAM would be an improvement.  

I think the space is perfect.  The bridge deck is far enough above to keep the traffic noise from being very loud and I think it fits an art market very well.

It's probably not something I would visit every week, but I'll probably go once a month and I hope with time it will become a great arts market.  I really hope that people will be exposed to parts of the city they might not otherwise see, like the Riverwalk, and this becomes something really positive.  Is there any chance JTA would be willing to run one of the trolleys or a bus to help with parking?  I'm sure future crowds will dictate whether or not it's needed and I'm not sure where it would run to/from, but I think it's a great opportunity to show the public the benefits of public transportation.

Imagine if JTA moved forward with a streetcar line in the vicinity?  A successful market would help generate decent ridership numbers on the weekends.

Absolutely, not to mention all the development that would start up within a few blocks of the streetcar line.  I could be expecting too much from the RAM, but I think it's a great opportunity to get public support for things the city needs like transportation and bring more life to downtown.

9a--the Mayor was there today and absolutely became a convert. He was talking to Doug Coleman, the Guru RAM chair, and discussed how valuable adding a river-dockage component to the market would be. The roaring success of the Bike Valet was another example of how alternative transportation should be a key component of the market.

Thanks for the info grimss.  While I know the Mayor is a politician, I hope is conversion is genuine.  I'm hoping the market can be the thing that gets our city moving forward.  There's no reason we don't have a great transportation system and there's no reason Jacksonville isn't the premier city in Florida and the Southeast.  It's just a matter of realizing our potential and taking advantage of what we have.  The space under the Fuller-Warren has been there for years, but now that it's being used by the RAM, it's contributing something to the community.

Not to be contrary to some of the posts but I like buying local produce and even brought 4 tote bags to carry things around. That's part of fun of going to those types of markets. As for the Farmers Market on Beaver, I make this point, in all the years growing up I've never once been to it, but I was buying strawberry jam on opening day for RAM. My point is not everyone wants to drive to Beaver St. Why can't some of the vendors on Beaver street come to RAM?

If I was a vendor I'd rather cater towards the weekly person coming every week spending $10-20 each trip than a out of town visitor that only comes once but spends $50.

What's the status on beer & wine?  I really expected to see Bold City represented there..........

I hope Beer & Wine never become part of the "scene" - it's unecessary and, in my opinion would compromise the quality of the Market.  Walking the streets in Jacksonville with an open container seems to have become such an ubiquitous lowest common denominator part of the "culture", to our own detriment.  You'd NEVER imagine seeing anyone in Portland's Saturday Market walking around with a beer or wine.  There's a time and place for everything, and this isn't it re: beer/wine.

Let's let this evolve to a great community event, focused on substance, and welcoming for kids/families, rather than turning it into another form of a "street party".  You've got the first Wednesday evening of every month downtown for that - as well as the various monster truck events and football games.

Quote from: CrysG on April 04, 2009, 11:44:02 PM
As for the Farmers Market on Beaver, I make this point, in all the years growing up I've never once been to it, but I was buying strawberry jam on opening day for RAM. My point is not everyone wants to drive to Beaver St. Why can't some of the vendors on Beaver street come to RAM?

The market on Beaver is geared to different clientele.  For example, many local restaurants purchase their fresh vegetables and fruits wholesale, from the market, seven days a week.  That's something RAM's location and facilities can't provide.

I thought it was a great event. I was amazed at how many people attended.  I even saw people there that live down in Jullington Creek.........

More food and produce would be great.

I also think beer and wine would be a nice addition.  I stayed for probably an hour and a half but would have stayed longer with a cold beer in my hand.........

Lake,

That was my point entirely. I know all about the Farmers Market. My parents go to the Farmers Market. I have no desire to go to the Farmers Market. With there being different clientele it would be a smart move to have some of the people at the Farmers Market come to RAM.

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 12:12:25 AM
I hope Beer & Wine never become part of the "scene" - it's unecessary and, in my opinion would compromise the quality of the Market.  Walking the streets in Jacksonville with an open container seems to have become such an ubiquitous lowest common denominator part of the "culture", to our own detriment.  You'd NEVER imagine seeing anyone in Portland's Saturday Market walking around with a beer or wine.  There's a time and place for everything, and this isn't it re: beer/wine.

Let's let this evolve to a great community event, focused on substance, and welcoming for kids/families, rather than turning it into another form of a "street party".  You've got the first Wednesday evening of every month downtown for that - as well as the various monster truck events and football games.

A: Wouldn't you rather be able to compare Jacksonville to Seattle, rather than Portland?

Wouldn't that be nice, to be a real tier-1 city?

and

B: What's with all this silly ideology where you have to protect people from themselves? WTF? If you don't like beer, then don't buy any. It's that simple. But if other people do, then why the heck would it bother you? And why would you want to prevent multiple other people from getting what they want, just because it bothers you? I don't really get that logic.

If people want beer and wine, then give it to them. It would be good for the festival, and I bet for every silly conservative hell-bent on keeping this place in the stone-age that might not come out because *gasp* there's a wine booth (oh NO...the CHILDREN!!!), there would be ten regular people who would come to have a beer or a glass of wine and walk around and potentially buy stuff.

As it sits, a wine booth would give me a reason to spend some money there. No offense, but so far there's nothing much worth buying. It was a bunch of women's jewelry and overpriced homebuilt crafts. I ate before I went, so the food booths weren't really an option. And if I wanted to buy produce, I'd be at Publix where I wouldn't have to lug it a mile to my car. I was a little disappointed with it, because I really was expecting "Art" since that's the name of the event, right?

So look, better yet, why doesn't it just split it into two sections? One part of it can be art and a wine booth, and the other side of it can be crafts and produce? That would satisfy both "contingents" (though I bet I know which one will be busier). And FWIW, Portland's crafts fair is just that...a CRAFTS fair, and I wouldn't go to that either.

Quote from: CrysG on April 05, 2009, 09:13:09 AM
Lake,

That was my point entirely. I know all about the Farmers Market. My parents go to the Farmers Market. I have no desire to go to the Farmers Market. With there being different clientele it would be a smart move to have some of the people at the Farmers Market come to RAM.

Or visa versa.  Over time, we'll probably see a few, selling select products (ex. I can't imagine someone selling live chickens at RAM), take advantage of both.

I don't know that the Farmers Market vendors would fit what RAM is looking for.  It seems like RAM is trying to highlight organic/natural produce that's local.  I don't know how much of the stuff at the Farmers Market is local, but it seems like a good deal of it isn't (there are lots of pineapples, bananas, etc.).  I know there are some items such as strawberries, peaches and watermelon that are local during their respective seasons, but I don't know how many of the vendors the RAM would approve.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 05, 2009, 09:58:52 AM

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 12:12:25 AM
I hope Beer & Wine never become part of the "scene" - it's unecessary and, in my opinion would compromise the quality of the Market.  Walking the streets in Jacksonville with an open container seems to have become such an ubiquitous lowest common denominator part of the "culture", to our own detriment.  You'd NEVER imagine seeing anyone in Portland's Saturday Market walking around with a beer or wine.  There's a time and place for everything, and this isn't it re: beer/wine.

Let's let this evolve to a great community event, focused on substance, and welcoming for kids/families, rather than turning it into another form of a "street party".  You've got the first Wednesday evening of every month downtown for that - as well as the various monster truck events and football games.

A: Wouldn't you rather be able to compare Jacksonville to Seattle, rather than Portland?

Wouldn't that be nice, to be a real tier-1 city?

and

B: What's with all this silly ideology where you have to protect people from themselves? WTF? If you don't like beer, then don't buy any. It's that simple. But if other people do, then why the heck would it bother you? And why would you want to prevent multiple other people from getting what they want, just because it bothers you? I don't really get that logic.

If people want beer and wine, then give it to them. It would be good for the festival, and I bet for every silly conservative hell-bent on keeping this place in the stone-age that might not come out because *gasp* there's a wine booth (oh NO...the CHILDREN!!!), there would be ten regular people who would come to have a beer or a glass of wine and walk around and potentially buy stuff.

As it sits, a wine booth would give me a reason to spend some money there. No offense, but so far there's nothing much worth buying. It was a bunch of women's jewelry and overpriced homebuilt crafts. I ate before I went, so the food booths weren't really an option. And if I wanted to buy produce, I'd be at Publix where I wouldn't have to lug it a mile to my car. I was a little disappointed with it, because I really was expecting "Art" since that's the name of the event, right?

So look, better yet, why doesn't it just split it into two sections? One part of it can be art and a wine booth, and the other side of it can be crafts and produce? That would satisfy both "contingents" (though I bet I know which one will be busier). And FWIW, Portland's crafts fair is just that...a CRAFTS fair, and I wouldn't go to that either.

Seems you've taken my comments in a different direction than the point I was trying to make, and think I'm making a judgement from a conservative, fundamental, anti-drinking posture, which is not my position.

The Portland Saturday Market has been in consistent operation weekly from March through December for over 35 years.  It was founded as a place for Artisans to sell their work to the community, and it has since evolved into a great local/regional draw.  Seattle's Pike Place Market has functioned in a similar capacity for around a century, initially started as a direct-source vegetable market as a reaction against high retail pricing markup.  I hope the RAM realizes the same community support as a Cultural Experience, not a Beer & Wine venue.  Whether you like "craft" or "art" fairs, or markets, both are successful based upon their purpose and and haven't needed to "pander" to attract a wider audience by having beer & wine. 

Many festivals and events in Jacksonville, based upon experience, have become diminished because beer & wine IS the event.  Everything from the Downtown Art Walk (which has become less about Art), the beaches festivals, etc.  I'd hate to see this great (and important) addition to Jacksonville's Cultural Experience become similarly diminished.

By the way, if you've been to Portland's Saturday Market, and wouldn't go back because it's "just a Craft Fair", then perhaps the Riverside Arts Market isn't for you.  I suspect you can find plenty of what you're looking for along with the longneck budweiser and cutoff jeans crowd at the Beaches Festivals, Monster Truck Rallies, and the Suns' Thursday Night Throwdowns.

what would be local other than potatoes?  My father an I ran a truck farm out of the norhtide (oceanway) for a few years, just don't see the possibilitly running an organic farmers market in this city.  Was there a lot of people there GREAT, what you want is heads downtwn

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 01:06:30 PM
Seems you've taken my comments in a different direction than the point I was trying to make, and think I'm making a judgement from a conservative, fundamental, anti-drinking posture, which is not my position.

The Portland Saturday Market has been in consistent operation weekly from March through December for over 35 years.  It was founded as a place for Artisans to sell their work to the community, and it has since evolved into a great local/regional draw.  Seattle's Pike Place Market has functioned in a similar capacity for around a century, initially started as a direct-source vegetable market as a reaction against high retail pricing markup.  I hope the RAM realizes the same community support as a Cultural Experience, not a Beer & Wine venue.  Whether you like "craft" or "art" fairs, or markets, both are successful based upon their purpose and and haven't needed to "pander" to attract a wider audience by having beer & wine. 

Many festivals and events in Jacksonville, based upon experience, have become diminished because beer & wine IS the event.  Everything from the Downtown Art Walk (which has become less about Art), the beaches festivals, etc.  I'd hate to see this great (and important) addition to Jacksonville's Cultural Experience become similarly diminished.

By the way, if you've been to Portland's Saturday Market, and wouldn't go back because it's "just a Craft Fair", then perhaps the Riverside Arts Market isn't for you.  I suspect you can find plenty of what you're looking for along with the longneck budweiser and cutoff jeans crowd at the Beaches Festivals, Monster Truck Rallies, and the Suns' Thursday Night Throwdowns.

Personally, I've never been to a monster truck rally or a 'throwdown', whatever that is. What I was looking for was an art show/sale/event in the park, which is what this thing was ADVERTISED to be. It is called the "Riverside Arts Market". Note the deliberate use of the word "Art" and not "Crafts".

So I went, and felt the focus of the event was not what I expected. I'm sorry if we have different views, but I don't consider a bunch of booths selling women's jewelry, meat pies, homemade blankets, and vegetables/produce, to be "Art". Again, this is an "ART" market. Where's the "ART"?

If you like homebuilt birdhouses and produce stands, then fine, more power to you. But then don't call it 'Art'.

And I still don't get your objection to beer and wine sales. How is Art Walk in any way "diminished" because I can grab a glass of wine on my way from one place to the next? If anything it's the OPPOSITE, since personally I find it easier to justify buying things I like if I've had a glass of wine. It certainly doesn't hurt for greasing the proverbial wheels of commerce.

Plus, I gotta tell you, if I added up everybody I know, I have a lot of friends who buy a lot of art, and every single one of them certainly enjoys a glass of wine or *gasp* even a beer, at events. Name me a gallery that doesn't serve wine at a minimum, during shows? And we're not talking folks who drive around in pickup trucks blasting lynard skynard, so quit trying to imply that allowing beer and wine sales would somehow turn this into  just one more monster truck rally. I'm really dying to hear your logic as to how the event would be "diminished"...

And I know we don't know each other, so you're just going to have to take my word on this one, but I'm really not some redneck who was expecting a kegger with a monster truck show mixed in. Quite the reverse, if anything I think I was expecting a lot more actual culture and artistic expression, and instead I wound up with meat pies and produce stands. Like I said before, at least if there was a wine booth, I would have spent $6 instead of $0...

I really liked the look & feel of the bridge canopy overhead - it was sort of funny that most of the vendors were set up in tent booths - I suspect that will change as certain ones become "resident".  I still say bring on the likes of Bold City & San Sebastian Winery.  Seems like it could be a civil affair considering that it's over @ 4pm.  Beer & wine does NOT always = drunkfest.

Quote from: blizz01 on April 05, 2009, 04:16:30 PM
I really liked the look & feel of the bridge canopy overhead - it was sort of funny that most of the vendors were set up in tent booths - I suspect that will change as certain ones become "resident".  I still say bring on the likes of Bold City & San Sebastian Winery.  Seems like it could be a civil affair considering that it's over @ 4pm.  Beer & wine does NOT always = drunkfest.

That's a good idea about San Sebastian and B.C. It would keep the 'local' thing going.

Chris,

I also enjoy a drink at a gallery event, and at Art Walk.  In fact, I think Art Walk is so light on substance now that the drink and social interaction is basically the reason I go when I do.  And, I think that's too bad for the substance of the event as compared with other downtown weekly/monthly/seasonal Art Walk's around the country.  After living in this city for several years now, I can't figure out why every public community event needs to be accompanied by beer & wine.  Jacksonville is known as the city where "you can walk down the street drinking a beer", in a non-flattering way.  You mentioned a comparison to Seattle as a first tier city, which has a VERY strict policy of law and enforcement re: open containers in public places (including & especially as part of "community" events such as 4th of July, football games, etc.).  And, it has a downtown, civic, and cultural environment Jacksonville should admire and aspire to.

Perhaps there's a social/cultural norm in Jacksonville that I'm not tuned into, and that's ok too.  I didn't mean to begrudge you, and I don't judge your opinion, other than to disagree that I didn't need a drink to "enhance the experience" at the Riverside Arts Market yesterday.  I have no doubt that if you'd have enjoyed a microbrew yesterday, we'd all be none the worse for it.

Back to the topic of this discussion, let me say this.

I thought the Opening Day for the Riverside Arts Market was an overwhelming and unqualified success.  For the first day ever for this event, I thought the whole concept and execution was excellent, together with whatever challenges came about from the larger-than-expected crowds.  As this event matures, the vendors and public will figure out works for them, and it will take on it's own persona.  We should be so fortunate to have this event someday evolve into one of "Jacksonville's" signature events, rather than an imitation of another city's market.

The organizers of the event, and those who helped make it happen should be commended.  The great work over the past year or more was obvious.

In time, issues of Art, Craft, Produce, Food, etc. will become worked out naturally.  It's the beauty of a Local Market embodying local characteristics, led by local community leaders - rather than political groups or agencies.

Congratulations to all.

If I'm not mistaken isn't the Art Walk at night? Does the Art Walk have face panting for kids? One thing has nothing to do with the other. I understand liking to have a beer or wine or even something stronger, but selling alcohol at 10 am on a Saturday at a family friendly art market?

There is a time and place for everything.

Quote from: CrysG on April 05, 2009, 05:12:06 PM
If I'm not mistaken isn't the Art Walk at night? Does the Art Walk have face panting for kids? One thing has nothing to do with the other. I understand liking to have a beer or wine or even something stronger, but selling alcohol at 10 am on a Saturday at a family friendly art market?

There is a time and place for everything.

Entirely agree.  I think that's what surprised me about the mention in the first place.

If Art Walk had a policy of no drinks while walking down the street, do you suppose attendance would remain the same?  If not, is it a viable "Art Walk"?

Quote from: CrysG on April 05, 2009, 05:12:06 PM
If I'm not mistaken isn't the Art Walk at night? Does the Art Walk have face panting for kids? One thing has nothing to do with the other. I understand liking to have a beer or wine or even something stronger, but selling alcohol at 10 am on a Saturday at a family friendly art market?

There is a time and place for everything.

We went in the afternoon, not at 10am, and there were still lots of (presumably thirsty) people there. Honestly, I wasn't there earlier to compare, but I bet it probably picked up more people as the day wore on, since not everybody wants to jump out of bed at the crack of dawn on a Saturday.

Would it really hurt to have beer & wine sales from, say, 12pm to 4pm? Or 11:30pm-4pm? Nobody is advocating that people jump out of bed in the morning and head straight off to get loaded, and that was never the point.

But by the time afternoon rolls around, I just plain don't see what the problem is?

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 04:47:06 PM
Chris,

I also enjoy a drink at a gallery event, and at Art Walk.  In fact, I think Art Walk is so light on substance now that the drink and social interaction is basically the reason I go when I do.  And, I think that's too bad for the substance of the event as compared with other downtown weekly/monthly/seasonal Art Walk's around the country.  After living in this city for several years now, I can't figure out why every public community event needs to be accompanied by beer & wine.  Jacksonville is known as the city where "you can walk down the street drinking a beer", in a non-flattering way.  You mentioned a comparison to Seattle as a first tier city, which has a VERY strict policy of law and enforcement re: open containers in public places (including & especially as part of "community" events such as 4th of July, football games, etc.).  And, it has a downtown, civic, and cultural environment Jacksonville should admire and aspire to.

Perhaps there's a social/cultural norm in Jacksonville that I'm not tuned into, and that's ok too.  I didn't mean to begrudge you, and I don't judge your opinion, other than to disagree that I didn't need a drink to "enhance the experience" at the Riverside Arts Market yesterday.  I have no doubt that if you'd have enjoyed a microbrew yesterday, we'd all be none the worse for it.

Back to the topic of this discussion, let me say this.

I thought the Opening Day for the Riverside Arts Market was an overwhelming and unqualified success.  For the first day ever for this event, I thought the whole concept and execution was excellent, together with whatever challenges came about from the larger-than-expected crowds.  As this event matures, the vendors and public will figure out works for them, and it will take on it's own persona.  We should be so fortunate to have this event someday evolve into one of "Jacksonville's" signature events, rather than an imitation of another city's market.

The organizers of the event, and those who helped make it happen should be commended.  The great work over the past year or more was obvious.

In time, issues of Art, Craft, Produce, Food, etc. will become worked out naturally.  It's the beauty of a Local Market embodying local characteristics, led by local community leaders - rather than political groups or agencies.

Congratulations to all.

I don't see why the mere side-note of serving beer & wine would necessarily come to define the entire event? I don't think beer & wine sales have anything to do with affecting what Art Walk is, or any other event for that matter. The event is what it is, whether you can get a glass of wine has got nothing whatsoever to do with it. But it definitely DOES bring more people out.

I'm envisioning a wine & beer component to the "Arts" here, with B.C. selling their home-made brews, and maybe San Sebastian like another poster mentioned, offering their home-grown grapes. It would be really neat, and have an artistic component to it. I'm not just saying we should slap a miller lite in everyone's hand as they walk in, the beer and wine can actually be parts of the "Arts" and have a local flavor...

And that's actually relevant to the stated purpose of the event, unlike people hawking produce and vegetables and every other random thing...

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 05, 2009, 05:54:02 PM

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 04:47:06 PM
Chris,

I also enjoy a drink at a gallery event, and at Art Walk.  In fact, I think Art Walk is so light on substance now that the drink and social interaction is basically the reason I go when I do.  And, I think that's too bad for the substance of the event as compared with other downtown weekly/monthly/seasonal Art Walk's around the country.  After living in this city for several years now, I can't figure out why every public community event needs to be accompanied by beer & wine.  Jacksonville is known as the city where "you can walk down the street drinking a beer", in a non-flattering way.  You mentioned a comparison to Seattle as a first tier city, which has a VERY strict policy of law and enforcement re: open containers in public places (including & especially as part of "community" events such as 4th of July, football games, etc.).  And, it has a downtown, civic, and cultural environment Jacksonville should admire and aspire to.

Perhaps there's a social/cultural norm in Jacksonville that I'm not tuned into, and that's ok too.  I didn't mean to begrudge you, and I don't judge your opinion, other than to disagree that I didn't need a drink to "enhance the experience" at the Riverside Arts Market yesterday.  I have no doubt that if you'd have enjoyed a microbrew yesterday, we'd all be none the worse for it.

Back to the topic of this discussion, let me say this.

I thought the Opening Day for the Riverside Arts Market was an overwhelming and unqualified success.  For the first day ever for this event, I thought the whole concept and execution was excellent, together with whatever challenges came about from the larger-than-expected crowds.  As this event matures, the vendors and public will figure out works for them, and it will take on it's own persona.  We should be so fortunate to have this event someday evolve into one of "Jacksonville's" signature events, rather than an imitation of another city's market.

The organizers of the event, and those who helped make it happen should be commended.  The great work over the past year or more was obvious.

In time, issues of Art, Craft, Produce, Food, etc. will become worked out naturally.  It's the beauty of a Local Market embodying local characteristics, led by local community leaders - rather than political groups or agencies.

Congratulations to all.

I don't see why the mere side-note of serving beer & wine would necessarily come to define the entire event? I don't think beer & wine sales have anything to do with affecting what Art Walk is, or any other event for that matter. The event is what it is, whether you can get a glass of wine has got nothing whatsoever to do with it. But it definitely DOES bring more people out.

I'm envisioning a wine & beer component to the "Arts" here, with B.C. selling their home-made brews, and maybe San Sebastian like another poster mentioned, offering their home-grown grapes. It would be really neat, and have an artistic component to it. I'm not just saying we should slap a miller lite in everyone's hand as they walk in, the beer and wine can actually be parts of the "Arts" and have a local flavor...

And that's actually relevant to the stated purpose of the event, unlike people hawking produce and vegetables and every other random thing...

If, as you say, having Wine and Beer WOULD bring more people out, then it WOULD affect the event, because that's evidently what would bring them out - according to you.  How can you say it has nothing to do with it, if they wouldn't be there if drinks weren't a part of the event.  You've contradicted yourself in one sentence.

Your definition of "Art" vs. "Crafts" seem to be at issue.  In Portland (since their Market has been mentioned as the inspiration), you can buy duct tape wallets, handmade iPod covers, tie-die hemp socks, and all sorts of pet supplies, birdhouses, jams & jellies, handcrafted jewelry, and all sorts of other things (some good some bad).  It's a great environment, and has something for everyone - both Art and Craft alike. 

The Portland Saturday Market draws 750,000 people to it's downtown every year, and is entering it's 36th or 37th year - and does so without offering patrons wine/beer while strolling.  And - Oregon wine and northwest microbrews would be a draw there.  San Sebastian Wine is no comparison to Oregon Willamette Valley wine!

We can agree to disagree.  Meanwhile, I wish the Riverside Arts Market every success and will support it at every occasion I can, and I hope everyone will as well, drink or no drink.

Not having wine and beer at RAM might be an enlightening experience for some residents. Guess what,  in order to have a cultural event be interesting or even cultural in the first place it doesn't need to have drinking as a major or even minor component of entertainment. Yes, that is right, there's a culture out there in other places that extends beyond the drinking culture. I realize that abstaining for so long, all the way up until 4:00, is a hardship for a lot of Jax -what the hell do you do with your hands if they don't have a smoke or a beer in them? So psychologically uncomfortable. Please advise!- but you can down a few bloody marys before the event and then bolt to a bar and at the same time support those local business after. Excruciating, but possible.

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 06:37:26 PM
If, as you say, having Wine and Beer WOULD bring more people out, then it WOULD affect the event, because that's evidently what would bring them out - according to you.  How can you say it has nothing to do with it, if they wouldn't be there if drinks weren't a part of the event.  You've contradicted yourself in one sentence.

I certainly didn't contradict myself one bit!

Though I do have to give you props for giving it the ole' college try and dragging out what has got to be the most fallaciously 'challenged' logic I've seen in awhile...

I said that simply serving beer & wine should not come to 'define' the entire event. Specifically, this is what I said:

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 05, 2009, 05:54:02 PM
I don't see why the mere side-note of serving beer & wine would necessarily come to define the entire event

I then said:

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 05, 2009, 05:54:02 PM
The event is what it is, whether you can get a glass of wine has got nothing whatsoever to do with it. But it definitely DOES bring more people out.

I never said that having more people wouldn't "affect" the event, in fact, I didn't even use that word at all, you did...and are now trying (unsuccessfully) to put your own words my mouth.

So why don't you re-read what I actually wrote. If you truly believe those statements are somehow contradictory, then I'm guessing you've got other issues.

Quote from: obie1 on April 05, 2009, 06:53:52 PM
Not having wine and beer at RAM might be an enlightening experience for some residents.

Shouldn't that be THEIR decision to make, and not YOURS?

Quote from: obie1 on April 05, 2009, 06:53:52 PM
Not having wine and beer at RAM might be an enlightening experience for some residents. Guess what,  in order to have a cultural event be interesting or even cultural in the first place it doesn't need to have drinking as a major or even minor component of entertainment. Yes, that is right, there's a culture out there in other places that extends beyond the drinking culture. I realize that abstaining for so long, all the way up until 4:00, is a hardship for a lot of Jax -what the hell do you do with your hands if they don't have a smoke or a beer in them? So psychologically uncomfortable. Please advise!- but you can down a few bloody marys before the event and then bolt to a bar and at the same time support those local business after. Excruciating, but possible.

Great observation.  In fact, that's what other "first tier" cities do without complaint or resistance.

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:18:16 PM
Great observation.  In fact, that's what other "first tier" cities do without complaint or resistance.

I hate to enlighten you, but Portland is hardly a "Tier 1" city by most folks' definition...

And as to the true "cities", like Chicago, NYC, San Francisco, Boston, etc., I've rarely found myself confronting this "preachy" routine that you and obie1 are engaging in, while judgmentally determining what will and won't be 'enlightening' to others.

It's evidently yourselves that need enlightening, as to the value of having tolerance for the preferences and individual choices of others...

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 05, 2009, 07:15:38 PM

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 06:37:26 PM
If, as you say, having Wine and Beer WOULD bring more people out, then it WOULD affect the event, because that's evidently what would bring them out - according to you.  How can you say it has nothing to do with it, if they wouldn't be there if drinks weren't a part of the event.  You've contradicted yourself in one sentence.

I certainly didn't contradict myself one bit!

Though I do have to give you props for giving it the ole' college try and dragging out what has got to be the most fallaciously 'challenged' logic I've seen in awhile...

I said that simply serving beer & wine should not come to 'define' the entire event. Specifically, this is what I said:

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 05, 2009, 05:54:02 PM
I don't see why the mere side-note of serving beer & wine would necessarily come to define the entire event

I then said:

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 05, 2009, 05:54:02 PM
The event is what it is, whether you can get a glass of wine has got nothing whatsoever to do with it. But it definitely DOES bring more people out.

I never said that having more people wouldn't "affect" the event, in fact, I didn't even use that word at all, you did...and are now trying (unsuccessfully) to put your own words my mouth.

So why don't you re-read what I actually wrote. If you truly believe those statements are somehow contradictory, then I'm guessing you've got other issues.

Chris:

Let's make this simple.  Short questions, one word answers.  You said, quoting:

"The event is what it is, whether you can get a glass of wine has got nothing whatsoever to do with it. But it definitely DOES bring more people out."

You said a drink definately DOES bring more people out.  I presume that's because they can get a drink there? 

If there's a group, and you add people to the group, those added people have something to do with how the group is, right?  Isn't it a fundamental law of social dynamics?

If there was a "no open container law" in public, would you agree there would be differences in the following events?:
- Art Walk
- Beaches Festivals
- Jaguar Football games
- Florida/Georgia
- 4th of July Celebration
- Christmas in Avondale
- Dancing in the Streets (Atlantic/Neptune Beach)

No challenged logic, just simple questions based in your comment.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 05, 2009, 07:22:41 PM

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:18:16 PM
Great observation.  In fact, that's what other "first tier" cities do without complaint or resistance.

I hate to enlighten you, but Portland is hardly a "Tier 1" city by most folks' definition...

And as to the true "cities", like Chicago, NYC, San Francisco, Boston, etc., I've rarely found myself confronting this "preachy" routine that you and obie1 are engaging in, while judgmentally determining what will and won't be 'enlightening' to others.

It's evidently yourselves that need enlightening, as to the value of having tolerance for the preferences and individual choices of others...

No one is being "preachy" here, especially not me.  Believe me, I have no place to preach to anyone.

Have you been to Portland?  If so, when, and how many times? 

Portland may be the quintessential case study for enlightened urban development. It's probably one of the LEAST preachy cities I've ever seen, as freedom of open speech and liberal thought is celebrated openly there. 

You mentioned Seattle as a "first tier" city, and that's what I was referring to with my reference.  Have you been to Seattle?  If so, when, for how long, and how many times?  Seattle has major festivals and events including Seafair, Bite of Seattle, multiple major 4th of July fireworks, Seahawks games, etc. - and in no occasion is strolling with an open container allowed in any case.  At most, it's oriented around contained "Beer Garden" environments.  Seattle is another of the least preachy cities and most liberal in terms of freedom of speech and action.

You also mentioned San Francisco.  At the Blues Festival in Golden Gate Park two years ago you'd NEVER be allowed to walk around between stages with a beer (I tried), and in fact, I saw an officer nearly arrest a woman who resisted putting out her cigarette while in the park (with no one near her), because it violates the smoking in a public place law.  Yet, try to walk out the concourse from a Jaguars game - you're going through a gauntlet of smokers.  Would you consider San Francisco a "preachy" city?

There will be many Saturdays to come and many more opinions that RAM will have to sift through.  I do not think a wine tasting booth or a small "Bold City" booth open from noon to four would detract from the event but I would not be surprised if we never see it there.  I myself would not care one way or the other.  I did speak to more than a few who asked if there was a wine or beer vendor.

Someone brought "culture and cultural events" into the argument... Virtually all events from plays to the symphony serve alcohol in the lobby.  Nothing monster trucky or thirsty thursdayish about those cultural events.  There are many reasons to not have alcohol at RAM... culture is not one of them.

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:30:50 PM
You said a drink definately DOES bring more people out.  I presume that's because they can get a drink there?  

No, it's not necessarily that directly related.

I think, overall, some folks would have a more enjoyable experience if they could have a glass of wine or a beer, and this will probably yield more repeat visits by a decently large percentage of people.

Plus, bear in mind, what I'm suggesting is exploring the aspect of winemaking and beermaking as "Art", as part of the event, and bringing in community members who are engaged in these creative enterprises locally. This is at least as relevant as selling t-shirts and vegetables at an "Art" market, wouldn't you say?

And if this were accomplished, it would bring out people whose primary purpose would probably be to taste the multiple varieties of wine and beer produced by the local vendors, and who may go on to buy other things for sale while they're there.

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:30:50 PM
If there's a group, and you add people to the group, those added people have something to do with how the group is, right?  Isn't it a fundamental law of social dynamics?

Nope.

Simply adding more people has nothing to do with changing the focus of the event, or redefining it. This is where your logic is ridiculous. If I bring 1,000 extra people to a LSO concert, it's not going to go *poof* and turn into an Elton John concert. LOL. Seriously, WTF?

The event is what it is. You're really scraping the bottom of the argument barrel here...

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:30:50 PM
If there was a "no open container law" in public, would you agree there would be differences in the following events?:
- Art Walk
- Beaches Festivals
- Jaguar Football games
- Florida/Georgia
- 4th of July Celebration
- Christmas in Avondale
- Dancing in the Streets (Atlantic/Neptune Beach)

No, I don't there'd be any difference at all. The Jaguars will still play football, regardless of whether beer is sold. The Florida/Georgia game will still be played, regardless of whether I can get a glass of wine in the stadium. Christmas will still happen, regardless of whether people can have eggnog or not...

Honestly, WTF, you've got to be kidding me with this?

You can't sit there and tell me with a straight face that allowing people to have a glass of wine is really going to change the whole character of an event. That's ludicrous.

And as to any potential side-effects (because I know when I want to get plastered and cause a scene, the first thing that would cross my mind is going to the Arts Market!), it in all likelihood will make no difference whatsoever. The people who act like idiots will act like idiots, regardless. And the people who enjoy the event will continue to do so, regardless. And the events ARE STILL WHAT THEY ARE, regardless.

I think in this case, you have the opportunity to bring out more people, for the reasons I listed above. But no, this isn't going to "change" or redefine the event. It will just make it better for everyone, since there will be more folks spending money there...

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:30:50 PM
No challenged logic, just simple questions based in your comment.

Sorry, but your logic was challenged when you asserted I'm contradicting myself by suggesting that you can serve wine and not redefine or ruin the event...

I feel like I'm testifying at the Wickersham Commission.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 05, 2009, 07:54:33 PM
There will be many Saturdays to come and many more opinions that RAM will have to sift through.  I do not think a wine tasting booth or a small "Bold City" booth open from noon to four would detract from the event but I would not be surprised if we never see it there.  I myself would not care one way or the other.  I did speak to more than a few who asked if there was a wine or beer vendor.

Someone brought "culture and cultural events" into the argument... Virtually all events from plays to the symphony serve alcohol in the lobby.  Nothing monster trucky or thirsty thursdayish about those cultural events.  There are many reasons to not have alcohol at RAM... culture is not one of them.

No problem for ticketed public events in venues such as theaters, etc.  I'm only talking about public/community events in open public places.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 05, 2009, 07:57:20 PM
If I bring 1,000 extra people to a LSO concert, it's not going to go *poof* and turn into an Elton John concert.

Props for the LSO reference!!

QuoteHave you been to Portland?  If so, when, and how many times?  

Who cares?

QuoteHave you been to Seattle?  If so, when, for how long, and how many times?  

Who cares?

OK - so I WAS in San Francisco recently (no need qualify it by having to reflect on when & how many times) & we visited the Ferry Plaza Farmer's Market on a Saturday morning - to me, THIS is what made it intriguing:

In preparation for a trip to Golden Gate Park, we purchased the following:  artisan bread(s), artisan cheese, olive oil, fresh cold cuts, fresh vegetables, a bar of chocolate, a hand-made blanket, & lastly, a hand-made basket in which to tote everything in - Oops, almost forgot, A BOTTLE OF WINE TOO!  The experience at Ferry Plaza was quite similar to that of RAM, with the exception of permanent businesses occupying the inner building.  There weren't hammered hooligans or shooter girls in sight - not even the slightest vibe or hint of "monster truck" culture as you so subtly put it.  Everything was local for the most part, & I even enjoyed an Anchor Steam.  Maybe the beer & wine was to accommodate people like me that can't seem to abstain - who knows(?).......There IS indeed a time & place for EVERYTHING.....

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:40:06 PM
No one is being "preachy" here, especially not me. 

Yes you are.

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:40:06 PM
Have you been to Portland?  If so, when, and how many times? 

Once, in 2002. I wasn't that impressed.

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:40:06 PM
You mentioned Seattle as a "first tier" city, and that's what I was referring to with my reference.  Have you been to Seattle?  If so, when, for how long, and how many times? 

First visited in 1994 with my parents, and have been back every year or two since. Visits ranged from one day while waiting to board a cruise ship, up to a week or 10 days. I very well may move there when I graduate law school this fall.

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:40:06 PM
Seattle has major festivals and events including Seafair, Bite of Seattle, multiple major 4th of July fireworks, Seahawks games, etc.

Wow, you can use google too!

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:40:06 PM
and in no occasion is strolling with an open container allowed in any case.  At most, it's oriented around contained "Beer Garden" environments.

Now you're REALLY doing some fancy footwork to dance around the issue...

Answer me this: Is beer and wine served these events? I think we both know the answer...

You're just trying to re-phrase it so it comes off as though your incorrect statements are correct.

To wit: http://www.biteofseattle.com/ent/piano/

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:40:06 PM
Seattle is another of the least preachy cities and most liberal in terms of freedom of speech and action.

I know, that was my original point when I brought it up...

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 07:40:06 PM
You also mentioned San Francisco.  At the Blues Festival in Golden Gate Park two years ago you'd NEVER be allowed to walk around between stages with a beer (I tried), and in fact, I saw an officer nearly arrest a woman who resisted putting out her cigarette while in the park (with no one near her), because it violates the smoking in a public place law.  Yet, try to walk out the concourse from a Jaguars game - you're going through a gauntlet of smokers.  Would you consider San Francisco a "preachy" city?

BWAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

This is the funniest thing I've read in quite some time.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Ok...I think I got it out of my system now. Deep breaths...deep breaths. LOL.

I'm not going to touch this one with a 10ft pole, but suffice it to say San Fran is not what you're making it out to be. They are VERY liberal about drinking alcohol (and doing LOTS AND LOTS of other things too) in public. You haven't been there much, have you?

As an example, go during Folsom sometime...you wouldn't be making this argument. Not that I'm advocating it (and not that I participate in that), but still...you clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 08:08:38 PM
No problem for ticketed public events in venues such as theaters, etc. 

Oh, how nice of you to acknowledge that we can have alcohol on PRIVATE PROPERTY...LOL

duh

Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on April 05, 2009, 08:08:38 PM
I'm only talking about public/community events in open public places.

Again, exactly WHO are YOU to set the standards for the rest of the community?

Quote from: 9a is my backyard on April 05, 2009, 12:43:18 PM
I don't know that the Farmers Market vendors would fit what RAM is looking for.  It seems like RAM is trying to highlight organic/natural produce that's local.  I don't know how much of the stuff at the Farmers Market is local, but it seems like a good deal of it isn't (there are lots of pineapples, bananas, etc.).  I know there are some items such as strawberries, peaches and watermelon that are local during their respective seasons, but I don't know how many of the vendors the RAM would approve.

I wish to clear up this mis-perception about a lack of "local" (see my definition in the quote below) produce at the Beaver Street Farmers Market.  Failure to do so will only harm those who really do want "local" produce.

Why is the Farmers Market so easily misunderstood?  Because the Farmers Market is so varied.  Compared with anywhere else in Jax, you won't find more "local" produce or any other produce than at the Jacksonville Farmers Market.  When, in season, they are loaded with TRUCKLOAD upon TRUCKLOAD of honeydew, cantaloupe, watermelons, peaches, Vidalia onions, pecans, strawberries, citrus, all kinds of greens (cut and uncut), beans, tomatoes, pumpkins, sugar cane, honey (the Tupelo is to die for), potatoes, etc., etc. often at up to 75% or more off grocery store prices.  [For some products, "local" may mean as far away as Virginia because products like apples, etc. don't grow any closer to here.]  That doesn't mean you won't have other produce as well.  People want a wide variety of items year 'round as well as specialty and ethnic products found nowhere else in North Florida and you have to have it all to attract some of these people.

Also, if the vendors sold exclusively "local" only, you might not have any vendors selling anything. They have to have enough product to make a living year 'round.  As it is, no matter what they sell, its half the price of the grocery store.  And, the wholesalers at the Farmers Market are frequently the source for all that "local" product you are finding at the roadside stand by the highway, the suburban produce store, at the better restaurants in Jax, or at RAM, other street and arts festivals, and the flea markets.  You can chose to by direct or second hand, whatever suits you, but folks, the produce available is not better represented anywhere in North Florida, than at the Farmers Market.  It is a fact that "local" produce isn't in the mix as much as it used to be due to 2/3 less farms (see quote below) and the growth of global and national trade over the decades but what "local" is available is at the Farmers Market in quantity and selection, first and foremost, over any other source in the region.

To see how much money you save at the Farmers Market go to this news story First Coast News ran last year comparing it to the grocery stores (in both transcript and video form) at:  http://www.firstcoastnews.com/money/onyourside/news-article.aspx?storyid=109749&catid=9

Below are my previous comments on this same subject at the MJ photo tour of the Jacksonville Farmers Market on Beaver Street at: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4133.15.html

QuoteMany vendors are seasonal farmers and many of the regular vendors are supplied by farmers who don't wish to hang around and sell their production.  A lot of the farmers sell out early in the day and you have to be there earlier to catch them.  Remember, too, there is a significant wholesale operation in the early morning and farmers like to sell out quickly and get back to the farm.

With fewer and fewer farmers in the region (see below data from last week's Florida Times Union article showing that in Duval County acreage has shrunk some 73% over the last 52 years) it is not as easy to find very close-by suppliers. I would consider any farmer from Florida, Georgia, or the Carolinas "local" by today's standards.  Yes, there are some vendors that mix in or carry other produce because it is nearly impossible to have enough variety and supply year round depending only on "local" production.  And some of the ethnic or specialty produce may not be grown locally.  You should ask questions if this is important to you and buy accordingly.  But it is not right to whitewash equally all the vendors and/or the produce sold as there is way too much variety and seasonality.[/b]

By the way, if someone wants something special in the market, some existing vendors may be able to bring it in.  Or, maybe you could find a new vendor to set up shop there if you see a niche not being covered.  It is, after all, the ultimate in entrepreneurial settings.  Cool
----------------------------------------------------
Per the Florida T-U:
SHRINKING FARMLAND
The number of farms and farmland in Duval County has been dwindling over the years, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture's census:
1950
975
farms
112,543
acres

2002
382
farms
31,241
acres
Note: The 2002 figures are the most recent available; they will be updated in February.

I just want to point something out we've had RAM compared to everything from an Art Gallery to symphony but I think your missing a very important fact. None of those events that serve alcohol actively seek families.  I wouldn't take my child to the Art Walk, art gallery or the symphony but I would take my child to get their face painted or see a magician(like the one that put on the show).

Just because people drink doesn't mean they should be able buy a drink at every public event that the city has. If you need a drink that bad walk over to the restaurants in 5 points or downtown have a lunch and come back.

And in another note there seems to be a lot of people saying that having produce and other groceries isn't what the ART market is for. If I'm not mistaken but produce is on the front page(of the website) same as art. They are equal.

Quote from: CrysG on April 05, 2009, 09:44:58 PM
I just want to point something out we've had RAM compared to everything from an Art Gallery to symphony but I think your missing a very important fact. None of those events that serve alcohol actively seek families.  I wouldn't take my child to the Art Walk, art gallery or the symphony but I would take my child to get their face painted or see a magician(like the one that put on the show).

Just because people drink doesn't mean they should be able buy a drink at every public event that the city has. If you need a drink that bad walk over to the restaurants in 5 points or downtown have a lunch and come back.

And in another note there seems to be a lot of people saying that having produce and other groceries isn't what the ART market is for. If I'm not mistaken but produce is on the front page(of the website) same as art. They are equal.

I'm sure if your 5 year old tries to buy a beer, they'll card him.

So, again, what's the problem?

The point is that people complain that people bring small children to things that are "adult" but some adults insist on bringing beer to everything.

Not to be mean but if you're a grown adult and you can't see yourself walking around for a couple of hours without a drink in your hand then you might want to spend those hours in AA. If you want a drink stay home, go to a restaurant or try the Art Walk. There are places that drinking is okay and there are places that drinking isn't.

I have a suggestion for all the beer/wine lovers and haters to try and keep peace in the MJ family.  How about, RAM, being that is on a Saturday, staying open to like 10 PM or so.  During the day, to 4 PM, its alcohol free.  After 4 PM, it's later, and it changes up the entertainment and a few vendors so its more adult oriented, and beer and wine are served to the "Saturday night" types who can come downtown, to Riverside, or to RAM for dinner, art, and a romantic stroll along the river.

Can we do this and declare a truce?  Or, I can throw another log on the fire  ;D  Does Disney serve drinks in its theme parks? (You know they do at Sea World, it is, after all, owned by Anheuser Busch!)

^My wife used to work for Disney.  According to her, they don't in the Magic Kingdom.  However, they do at EPCOT.  She wasn't for sure about Animal Kingdom and MGM.

I believe you can get beer or wine at the "sit down" restaurants inside the various Disney parks (per thelakelander, except Magic Kingdom, but I wonder about that fancy place in the castle) - especially the "countries" at Epcot.  But I don't think the quick serve counters have beer.

I would think that would be fine. After 4pm seems alot better than in the middle of the day.

And just a fyi not all of the Walt Disney World parks have alcohol. Magic Kingdom(the one most geared towards children) doesn't allow alcohol for public guest, only private corporate clubs and none of the parks allow for drinking in public.

This whole thread went nutty some time ago.  All that was ever proposed was the notion of 1 or 2 booths dedicated to a local brewer and/or winery - with an emphasis on the craft.  I wouldn't even care if it were confined to those booths.  That hardly makes the venue "adult" in nature.  Next time I blow through Target with my little girl, it'll be really tough to not cover her eyes as we are forced to walk past the wine aisle to get to the toys at the rear....... :-\.

Hopefully, the point is moot as Globatron did an interview with Tony Allegretti yesterday & the prospect of a Beer Garden is already on the radar:

http://www.globatron.org/contemporary-culture/first-ever-riverside-arts-market

I'm all for a truce, and will be happy to agree to disagree. 

My preference that the RAM be a public environment without beer/wine wasn't directed toward preaching, or criticizing anyone's personal preference.  I enjoy a glass or two during Art Walk, before Jaguar games, and on other occasions.  It just seemed out of place to me at the Arts Market, based on my experience in public places where I have lived or visited around the country.

Let's agree the Riverside Arts Market is great, support it, and embrace it in whatever way it evolves...

Quotenone of the parks allow for drinking in public.

That's completely incorrect.  Consider that Epcot hosts the International Food & Wine Festival annually for like 2 months. It's an outside affair & a roving party in the evenings as you move from country to country.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 05, 2009, 10:51:26 PM
^My wife used to work for Disney.  According to her, they don't in the Magic Kingdom.  However, they do at EPCOT.  She wasn't for sure about Animal Kingdom and MGM.

Disney isn't "public space" in the way of a park or community event.  No matter the park, it's a private, ticketed venue - and not comparable to a real public park.  

I enjoyed the debate.

As for the reality: http://www.globatron.org/contemporary-culture/first-ever-riverside-arts-market

at around 3:50 of the video, Tony Allegretti mentions plans for a beer garden, currently working through the "logistics" and "legal" aspects.

Thanks to Byron, aka globatron. (I dont actually know him...im not trying to portray it as such)

Quote from: CrysG on April 05, 2009, 10:35:23 PM
The point is that people complain that people bring small children to things that are "adult" but some adults insist on bringing beer to everything.

Nobody is bringing their own beer to the event. I'm talking about having a local microbrewery and a local winery vend their product...which as I've said before is clearly a lot more relevant to an "Arts" fair than the t-shirts and vegetables you apparently adore. Because lemme tell you...produce stands, women's jewelry, and meat pies are NOT going to maintain the numbers sufficient to keep this thing alive on a long-term basis.

And the event isn't an adult-only activity merely because they serve beer & wine. That's utterly ludicrous...

I guess you never take your kids to a restaurant then? *Gasp* they serve beer & wine...

Quote from: CrysG on April 05, 2009, 10:35:23 PM
Not to be mean but if you're a grown adult and you can't see yourself walking around for a couple of hours without a drink in your hand then you might want to spend those hours in AA.

That's just asinine and irrelevant. The only person implying that we want alcohol there because none of us can make it through the day without getting loaded is YOU.

In reality, I'm suggesting it because I think it will make the event better, and give two prominent local vendors the opportunity to attract more local fans. Will it attract a bunch of drunks? NO.

Quote from: CrysG on April 05, 2009, 10:35:23 PM
If you want a drink stay home, go to a restaurant or try the Art Walk. There are places that drinking is okay and there are places that drinking isn't.

Here's the problem: It's not up to YOU to tell other people what is and isn't "Okay".

And in this situation, a wine booth would be MORE than "okay". Using YOUR OWN logic, then if you don't like it, then your option is: Don't come, right? Your option isn't to preach and pontificate to others about what they are and aren't "allowed" to do, according to your personal preferences.

I bet there will be several additional people spending money there for every preachy one who won't take their kids to an outdoor event with an artisanal wine booth (LMFAO).

And like I said, then I guess you NEVER take your kids to a restaurant then? A baseball game? A full-service hotel (*GASP* they have a BAR)? A concert? The list goes on and on...

Your logic is ridiculous.

Quote from: stjr on April 05, 2009, 10:46:07 PM
I have a suggestion for all the beer/wine lovers and haters to try and keep peace in the MJ family.  How about, RAM, being that is on a Saturday, staying open to like 10 PM or so.  During the day, to 4 PM, its alcohol free.  After 4 PM, it's later, and it changes up the entertainment and a few vendors so its more adult oriented, and beer and wine are served to the "Saturday night" types who can come downtown, to Riverside, or to RAM for dinner, art, and a romantic stroll along the river.

Can we do this and declare a truce?  Or, I can throw another log on the fire  ;D  Does Disney serve drinks in its theme parks? (You know they do at Sea World, it is, after all, owned by Anheuser Busch!)

Oh ya, good point!

CrysG, the list of places you can take your kids is now shrinking RAPIDLY...

Scratch Epcot and Sea World off the list...

Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 05, 2009, 10:54:41 PM
I believe you can get beer or wine at the "sit down" restaurants inside the various Disney parks (per thelakelander, except Magic Kingdom, but I wonder about that fancy place in the castle) - especially the "countries" at Epcot.  But I don't think the quick serve counters have beer.

Yeah they do. Several, especially in the France and Italy portions of the park, are just wine/champagne booths.

Additionally, every "sit down" type restaurant in all the parks, including the Magic Kingdom, serve beer and wine, and several have full bars. Then they have a gigantic wine festival every year, and I see tons of kids...

So yeah, CrysG, this just sucks! I guess your kids are going to miss out on Disney's Magic Kingdom now too! Damn...those are going to be some deprived children...

I was hoping to see a nice review this morning of the RAM and how great it was and all  I see is whining because there was no beer or wine......geez! who cares, get over it.

Quote from: CrysG on April 05, 2009, 10:57:01 PM
I would think that would be fine. After 4pm seems alot better than in the middle of the day.

Sadly (for you), we've heard straight from the horse's mouth that they will serving beer at future events, so it appears the debate is now moot.

Quote from: CrysG on April 05, 2009, 10:57:01 PM
And just a fyi not all of the Walt Disney World parks have alcohol.

Yeah they do. Every Disney property has some nicer restaurants, where they serve at a minimum beer and wine, and some have full bars.

Quote from: CrysG on April 05, 2009, 10:57:01 PM
Magic Kingdom(the one most geared towards children) doesn't allow alcohol for public guest, only private corporate clubs

This is almost as good as the poster who was trying to preach about how morally strict San Francisco is.

A: You gotta be kidding me. I've been to freaking CIRCUIT PARTYS at the Magic Kingdom, where Disney sets up so many bars there's one every 15 feet. It's not some preachy 'sanctuary'.

B: You can get a drink at any of the "sit-down" type restaurants in the Magic Kingdom, any time.

Quote from: CrysG on April 05, 2009, 10:57:01 PM
none of the parks allow for drinking in public

That's incorrect. You can walk around carrying whatever you bought at a wine or beer stand. And there are whole weeks devoted to beers and wine. Go to the Food & Wine festival sometime, besides proving my point, the truth is you'd actually enjoy it.

Quote from: fsujax on April 06, 2009, 09:22:55 AM
I was hoping to see a nice review this morning of the RAM and how great it was and all  I see is whining because there was no beer or wine......geez! who cares, get over it.

Nobody's 'whining'.

There were several suggestions about having Bold City and San Sebastian at the event, and in response a couple posters popped up and started preaching with the same B.S. "Cowford" lines about "Oh no...we have to protect the CHILDREN!!!", even though these same people no doubt go to baseball games, restaurants, hotels, etc., with their kids and don't say a word.

And if you want me to whine about something, it would be how the "Art" Market wound up being just produce stands, meat pies, and women's jewelry. Like I said before, if they'd had a beer or wine vendor, at least me (and the other 90% of people who walked through without spending a dime) would have had SOME reason to spend some money.

This thing has to support itself you know....

"it would be how the "Art" Market wound up being just produce stands, meat pies, and women's jewelry"

It's too bad Moon River didn't have a booth set up, then your tunnel vision could have been focused directly on them.

What a perfect day for the RAM opening. I was surprised (like everyone else) to see such a turn out.
The atmosphere was as good as it gets.

I agree the degree of Art left a lot to be desired... maybe it was just the actual "art" there wasn't my taste.

The food however was a major bright spot for me. I saw dishes and things I had never seen before.

The performers were enjoyable and the small amphitheater set-up was a great place to relax and enjoy the sounds.

I felt there could have been much more produce available. The few booths there did offer some great looking organic fruits & veggies and it all looked much better than anything available at the Beaver St. market.

I'm going to try to stay out of the beer / wine debates but I will say this; I would love to see Bold City offering their delicious beers and attracting new customers every Saturday. It would be nice to sit down after an hour or so of strolling up & down the aisles, grab a B.C. pint and just sit and enjoy the music / river views.
I believe it will happen and won’t ruin anyone else’s experience.

I got a chance to go Sat afternoon and loved it!

quick review on my blog ... http://reviewjax.blogspot.com/2009/04/riverside-arts-market-opening-day.html (http://reviewjax.blogspot.com/2009/04/riverside-arts-market-opening-day.html)

I'm gonna say this. All of you AA members need to stop comparing RAM to a restaurant, Art Walk, hotel bar, baseball game, Jags game or anyplace else places that serve beer/wine. They are not RAM. They are not outside at 10am on a Saturday. They are not family friendly. They do not have things geared 100% towards kids.


I stand by my claim and I' keep defending it until blue in the face. If you as an adult can not see yourself walking around for a couple of hours without a beer or wine then you have a problem.

And btw put down your beers, sober up and read. I never said I had any children.

That's just asinine and irrelevant. The only person implying that we want alcohol there because none of us can make it through the day without getting loaded is YOU.

In reality, I'm suggesting it because I think it will make the event better, and give two prominent local vendors the opportunity to attract more local fans. Will it attract a bunch of drunks? NO.



So what would be the point of having them there? So everyone can stand there and look at the pretty bottles?

I will admit that some people, not myself, seemed surprised there was no alcohol... I don't really see why. It's a day event and family friendly... why throw alcohol into the mix... so what? there is 562 clear plastic cups to pick up?  ;D

<--- this coming from a huge fan of beer and wine  ::)

Quote from: fsujax on April 06, 2009, 09:22:55 AM
I was hoping to see a nice review this morning of the RAM and how great it was and all  I see is whining because there was no beer or wine......geez! who cares, get over it.

We do have a photo tour of the RAM coming up.  Stay tuned!

Isn't there another RAM thread?

I'm going to find it and maybe we can change this to the "To drink or not too drink... @ RAM" thread.

As those of you who are saying Magic Kingdom at Disney serves alcohol might want to double check. According to the Disney website they do not. It was Walt's wishes never to serve alcohol there.

I drank a beer at every country in EPCOT my last trip there in Feb.
By the time I hit Mexico I was hammered, there were kids everywhere and I kept screaming where’s the monster truck show. The next thing I knew my khaki pants turned into jean shorts and that made me mad so I started screaming obscenities at the children.

Ironically, EPCOT is the park with the most culture.

QuoteI'm going to try to stay out of the beer / wine debates

couldn't resist

My wife and I got there at about 10:20 - we missed the bike valet, and just locked our bikes up by the restrooms.  I thought it was a great event - the challenge will be to keep it up every week.

As far as the beer and wine, honestly I hadn't thought about it until I read this thread.  Personally I'm indifferent to it.  What do other arts markets do?  I don't know.  However, I think that it's not really an issue, and will  have nothing to do with whether or not the market succeeds.  For this to succeed in my opinion, it needs to draw people to the core that will stay in core to do other things (restaraunts, shops, etc), and vice versa.  It will be a challenge with the lack of connectivity at the location, but this is where JTA can come in with the streetcar.

What's the status on the River Taxi(s)?

Quote from: Steve on April 06, 2009, 11:19:21 AM
For this to succeed in my opinion, it needs to draw people to the core that will stay in core to do other things (restaraunts, shops, etc), and vice versa.  It will be a challenge with the lack of connectivity at the location, but this is where JTA can come in with the streetcar.

It is only 6 or 7 blocks to walk to the 5 pts area... not too far in my opinion....

Its not the distance from Five Points, its whats along the distance that can embrace or severe connectivity.  Long term, we'll have to find ways to bridge the unwalkable and unpleasant gaps.  Perhaps a streetcar system that encourages infill development is the answer.

Quote from: CrysG on April 06, 2009, 10:24:43 AM
I'm gonna say this. All of you AA members need to stop comparing RAM to a restaurant, Art Walk, hotel bar, baseball game, Jags game or anyplace else places that serve beer/wine. They are not RAM. They are not outside at 10am on a Saturday. They are not family friendly. They do not have things geared 100% towards kids.

I beg to differ that (some) restaurants, art walk, baseball games, and Jag games don't "have things geared 100% towards kids." Whether they are legitimately family friendly or not is subjective, but they do offer activities/products specifically for kids.

I'm personally ambivalent about the prospects of serving the beer and wine. I think it is a terrific idea to give local breweries and wineries some exposure at a festival like this. It would fit in very nicely in an environment like this. I'm only even talking about sampling beer/wine for purchase to take home. I wouldn't necessarily even expect to consume it on the premises. But I do also realize it COULD get out of hand. Just allowing alcohol somewhere opens the possibility of drunkenness and disorderly conduct. And it wouldn't make sense to sell without offering samples...and that could then lead to a slippery slope.

Anyway, I see some merits to both sides (although I really feel both parties have presented some arguments that are built on faulty reasoning) and I am hopeful that the beer garden idea, with its apparent implication of alcohol being confined to a specific location, will appease the most visitors.

I rode my bike up there with some friends and I want to give a big thanks to BikeJax for the bike valet, really cool idea. Even with the bike valet I saw tons of bikes locked up in various spots and I was glad to see so many people decide to bike and walk rather then drive.

I arrived around 2pm and hung out for a little over an hour and it was packed. If I had to describe it to someone I would have called it a “craft fare” in all honestly.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it was pretty much what I expected, hand made jewelry, ceramics, and a few paintings thrown in.  In addition there was a variety of live entertainment, some tramps playing music for tips, a magician, and some live music by the water I didn’t get a good look at. Another thing I noticed was the amount of dogs people brought with them.

If the number of visitors stays consistent I think the city needs to run the trolley (decorated bus) to reduce some of the traffic.

QuoteIf the number of visitors stays consistent I think the city needs to run the trolley (decorated bus) to reduce some of the traffic.

Agreed - even if those day one numbers (40k +) were to level off to 1/3rd.

Quote from: stjr on April 05, 2009, 10:46:07 PM
I have a suggestion for all the beer/wine lovers and haters to try and keep peace in the MJ family.  How about, RAM, being that is on a Saturday, staying open to like 10 PM or so.  During the day, to 4 PM, its alcohol free.  After 4 PM, it's later, and it changes up the entertainment and a few vendors so its more adult oriented, and beer and wine are served to the "Saturday night" types who can come downtown, to Riverside, or to RAM for dinner, art, and a romantic stroll along the river.

Can we do this and declare a truce?  Or, I can throw another log on the fire  ;D  Does Disney serve drinks in its theme parks? (You know they do at Sea World, it is, after all, owned by Anheuser Busch!)

Geeesh!  I thought we had a truce on this subject with the compromise I suggested!  How did I know I could kick start it all over again with the Disney question.  I did a Google search on "Disney and Alcohol" and had two million hits so I doubt anyone could say more here that hasn't been said somewhere else.  We could have shortened this discussion a lot sooner.  LOL.  Below is one site that seems to cover the question decently out of many.  Why don't we call a new truce on this subject and move on.  Otherwise, this could be come the new "Moon River" board.  :D

From LoveToKnow Themeparks at :  http://themeparks.lovetoknow.com/Alcohol_in_Amusement_Parks

QuoteAlcohol in Amusement Parks
If you’re wondering whether they sell alcohol in amusement parks, the answer depends on which amusement park you plan to attend . Some amusement parks do not serve any alcohol at all, while others do. The decision depends on the specific individual preferences of the theme park. There is no universal regulation regarding alcohol and amusement parks. That being said, the vast majority of theme parks do allow alcohol.

Most amusement parks sell alcohol.

Reasons Amusement Parks Sell Alcohol
Money is the main reason theme parks decide to sell alcohol. Alcohol is widely accepted in contemporary society, and the profits, especially at theme parks, can be enormous. For example, a six dollar bottle of wine can be divided into six glasses, sold for six dollars each. With soaring gas prices affecting overall attendance, theme parks are looking for new ways to increase revenue and margins. Alcohol is an easy way for theme parks to make a lot of money.

A survey of 165 tourist attractions in the United Sates was conducted between 2000 and 2005 by International Theme Park Services. The results showed the growing trend of alcohol being permitted in amusement parks. Forty-five percent of the attractions either began serving alcohol during this time, or expanded the number of places in the park where alcohol is permitted.

Parks that Serve Alcohol
Florida Aquarium in Tampa
Busch Gardens
Discovery Cove
Canada’s Wonderland
MGM Studios
Animal Kingdom
Epcot Center
California Adventure
Sea World Aquatica
Sea World San Diego
Universal Studios
Six Flags

Parks that Do Not Serve Alcohol
Walt Disney made it clear that he did not want his parks to serve alcohol. He felt that alcohol was not needed for families to enjoy themselves. Walt Disney World’s Magic Kingdom and Disney World have honored Walt Disney’s wishes by not offering alcohol. However, there are some other Disney theme parks which do allow alcohol.

Arguments for Banning Alcohol in Amusement Parks
Many people believe that alcohol should not be offered at family attractions. Watchdog groups believe that alcohol can interfere with family interactions. These groups argue that children who are exposed to alcohol are more likely to have a drinking problem when they grow older. Drunk driving is also a concern. Many parks such as Six Flags claim that inebriated individuals will be removed from the park. Yet enforcement of this regulation is very difficult. The fact that alcoholic beverages are so exorbitantly expensive in most parks does help to eliminate the number of inebriated individuals.

Bring Your Own Beer
Guests are not allowed to bring in any outside alcoholic beverages. Most parks also forbid admission to people who appear to be inebriated. Parks reserve the right to refuse service or admission to anyone. Outside nonalcoholic drinks and food are also usually not permitted into the park.

Summary
Alcohol is found in the vast majority of theme parks. If you are looking for a park that does not serve any alcohol, try Disneyland in California, or Walt Disney World in Orlando. There are usually designated areas where you will be able to find alcohol in theme parks. Even though alcohol is permitted in the park, often times it is only served in certain venues, so if you want to stay away from alcohol you can refrain from entering these venues. Other amusement parks have more liberal liquor laws and allow guests to walk around the park holding a beverage. Finding alcohol in amusement parks is easier than being able to select a park without alcohol. Though Disney stands by the wishes of Walt Disney, they lose millions and millions of dollars by banning alcohol. Though Disney is willing to take such a large hit in revenue, most other theme parks are not. In fact, without alcohol sales, many amusement parks might not be able to stay in business. Alcohol sales is big business, and theme parks will continue to provide the drinks that customers desire for the enormous profit they provide to the park.

Don't want to throw any more fuel on the beer and wine debate, but on Saturday I noticed a lot of plastic water bottles thrown out in the trash cans with the regular trash, which kind of sucks for a venue billing itself as a green market and wonder if selling beer and wine would just add to the volume of trash heading to a landfill.  Come on Jacksonvillians, is recycling that difficult?  I did notice one or two cans labeled for recyclables only scattered here and there, but I'd have liked to have seen some type of brightly colored receptacle (blue or green?) right next to each and every trash can throughout RAM for plastic and glass recyclables.

THAT said, I personally would have liked to try a new Bold City brew or maybe some local hobbyist brewer's basement concoction.  A separate beer garden area sounds like a good idea to me, as long as it's micro-brew or local stuff--no Natty Lite, Pabst Blue Ribbon or other corporate beer swill! 

Liked sampling the wares from the artisanal goat cheese vendor from GA, and picked up some cheese, locally grown veggies, and really great olive tapenade; didn't see a baker or bread seller there which would have been nice.  (There's a niche that Riverside/Avondale needs to fill--I know there's Edgewood bakery and Einstein bagels nearby, but a little place that sells just quality fresh baked loaves of bread would be much appreciated in the neighborhood!)

My wife and I rode our bikes and locked them up on one of the many bike stands; I was heartened to see so many people chose to ride instead of drive; thought the bike valet was a great idea and will definitely try it next time.  Car traffic was kind of hellish for a Saturday though--riding home in the afternoon, we were almost run down by a regulation a-hole in a PT Cruiser: he beeped at us a couple times, I waved him around, and as he passed he yelled "Get out of the damn road!".  Before I could stop myself, I flicked him off as did my wife, which was kind of stupid since he was obviously ignorant and could possibly have been mentally unstable and/or armed.  Of course, he didn't stop to rumble.

Nice to see a bunch of dogs and their owners out enjoying themselves too.

I thought it was great start to RAM and look forward to seeing it evolve and grow.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 06, 2009, 11:43:30 AM
Its not the distance from Five Points, its whats along the distance that can embrace or severe connectivity.  Long term, we'll have to find ways to bridge the unwalkable and unpleasant gaps.  Perhaps a streetcar system that encourages infill development is the answer.

i'm not trying to be a wise guy.. what unpleasant spots are along the way? i rode my back from 5 points.. seemed pleasantly walkable to me... a lot more pleasant than all the bums you pass in broad daylight in say manhattan and seattle

Perhaps he meant for those who are not lucky enough to live within comfortable biking distance like 5 points and riverside...

oh yea... unless you are in the immediate area you pretty much have to drive... you could bike from san marco and downtown...

I drove, parked far away and then biked...

See... thats what he meant! :)

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 06, 2009, 11:53:58 AM

Quote from: CrysG on April 06, 2009, 10:24:43 AM
I'm gonna say this. All of you AA members need to stop comparing RAM to a restaurant, Art Walk, hotel bar, baseball game, Jags game or anyplace else places that serve beer/wine. They are not RAM. They are not outside at 10am on a Saturday. They are not family friendly. They do not have things geared 100% towards kids.

I beg to differ that (some) restaurants, art walk, baseball games, and Jag games don't "have things geared 100% towards kids." Whether they are legitimately family friendly or not is subjective, but they do offer activities/products specifically for kids.

I'm personally ambivalent about the prospects of serving the beer and wine. I think it is a terrific idea to give local breweries and wineries some exposure at a festival like this. It would fit in very nicely in an environment like this. I'm only even talking about sampling beer/wine for purchase to take home. I wouldn't necessarily even expect to consume it on the premises. But I do also realize it COULD get out of hand. Just allowing alcohol somewhere opens the possibility of drunkenness and disorderly conduct. And it wouldn't make sense to sell without offering samples...and that could then lead to a slippery slope.

Anyway, I see some merits to both sides (although I really feel both parties have presented some arguments that are built on faulty reasoning) and I am hopeful that the beer garden idea, with its apparent implication of alcohol being confined to a specific location, will appease the most visitors.

I agree.  This is an ideal scenario.

Quote from: stephElf on April 06, 2009, 01:37:23 PM
i'm not trying to be a wise guy.. what unpleasant spots are along the way? i rode my back from 5 points.. seemed pleasantly walkable to me... a lot more pleasant than all the bums you pass in broad daylight in say manhattan and seattle

After you get under the bridge, you have a collection of office buildings that poorly address the street that are all completely dark on Saturday. 

People are much more willing to walk when the environment is vibrant.  I would hardly call the environment between the Fuller Warren and 5 Points Vibrant, save for the Cummer.

The walk to Downtown is much worse along Riverside Avenue, however you have the riverwalk which helps in that regard.  With that said, would it have been that awful to put a normal railroad crossing across FEC versus the giant hill that we decided to build?

Quote from: stephElf on April 06, 2009, 01:37:23 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on April 06, 2009, 11:43:30 AM
Its not the distance from Five Points, its whats along the distance that can embrace or severe connectivity.  Long term, we'll have to find ways to bridge the unwalkable and unpleasant gaps.  Perhaps a streetcar system that encourages infill development is the answer.

i'm not trying to be a wise guy.. what unpleasant spots are along the way? i rode my back from 5 points.. seemed pleasantly walkable to me... a lot more pleasant than all the bums you pass in broad daylight in say manhattan and seattle

Bums don't really bother you when they blend into a vibrant urban landscape.  However, they do stand out more in environments designed for the movement and storage of cars.

Destination aside, what environment would you prefer to walk through while going from point A to point B?

Option A

One where a diverse amount of activity is not present at the pedestrian level.  Instead of buildings along sidewalks, the scene is dominated by vacant lots, surface parking lots, parking garages and buildings that turn their back to the street.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453365348_QuTFX-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453365411_w4WVu-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/455067594_BSCJJ-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453319076_2zR8A-M.jpg)


Option B

An area where the sidewalk becomes an interactive social scene.  Whether the use is commercial or residential, they embrace and welcome the pedestrian instead of the automobile or manicured lawns.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7344-p1120416.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6441-p1130193.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1315-p1010694.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1297-p1010558.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1303-p1010324.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/san_antonio/Riverwalk-SidewalkCafe.jpg)


This is not an indictment against RAM and it really has nothing to do with the market.  This is an observation of what we must find a way to overcome if we want the core to become a place with a 24/7 environment.  This is why the suggestion of a streetcar system was made.  They are known to have the power to encourage compact infill development on the small underutilized parcels of land that plague urban Jacksonville. 

QuotePeople are much more willing to walk when the environment is vibrant.  I would hardly call the environment between the Fuller Warren and 5 Points Vibrant, save for the Cummer.

The walk from the RAM to 5 points (via Riverside Ave.) is as vibrant as it gets. The Cummer, Womens Club, Garden Club, The Rowe House and Memorial Park are all landscaped beautifully and Riverside Ave. is canopied by oak trees.  ::)

Quote from: Shwaz on April 06, 2009, 03:13:36 PM

QuotePeople are much more willing to walk when the environment is vibrant.  I would hardly call the environment between the Fuller Warren and 5 Points Vibrant, save for the Cummer.

The walk from the RAM to 5 points (via Riverside Ave.) is as vibrant as it gets. The Cummer, Womens Club, Garden Club, The Rowe House and Memorial Park are all landscaped beautifully and Riverside Ave. is canopied by oak trees.  ::)

exactly... that's where I'm at... it may not be savannah or greenville, SC - but I think the walk is pretty freaking nice.

maybe I am biased from living off Emerson & Phillips for 4+ years ... but I'll take it.

A street car might help with san marco and DT people... but people from other areas such as Mandarin (like myself) still have to drive somewhere... and the current walking set-up I highly doubt will deter a single riverside-er.

Of course it has some great anchors, but it could be better.  For every anchor on the stretch between the Memorial Park and the Fuller Warren, there's a parking lot.  Plus, Post between Riverside Ave. and Park is outright horrible.  On top of that, I'm sure no one wants to debate the vibrancy of Riverside, north of the Fuller Warren.  If we can fill in those surface parking areas, under utilized lots and get people on the sidewalks on a regular consistent basis, it will then be as vibrant as it can get.

Well Mandarin and even Phillips & Emerson are both really suburbs.  Neither was a part of the original pre consolidated city.  Anyway, my suggestion would be while the area is better than true suburban hellholes, don't settle.  Its got great bones.  Hopefully, things like RAM and Cummer's expansion, along with something like a streetcar system, will take the area (and the urban core) to the next level.

QuoteA street car might help with san marco and DT people... but people from other areas such as Mandarin (like myself) still have to drive somewhere... and the current walking set-up I highly doubt will deter a single riverside-er.

Btw, this is where an integrated transit system comes into play.  With commuter rail, you could hop on a train in Mandarin or Philips & Emerson, to downtown and transfer to a streetcar to access Five Points.  This way, you can leave your car in the garage.  In the meantime, the fixed transit investment in Five Points, serves as the catalyst to turn what you describe as vibrant, into vibrancy on steroids.

Man, I couldn't help but look south down the river from the market & wish for a Riverwalk extension to Memorial Park - any idea if & when?

I thought that was supposed to happen, but Im not sure when.

I second that.  Unfortunately, it will probably have to wait for the next Mayor.  The current administration is still struggling with the courthouse situation.

It certainly could be much worse, and Riverside in the other direction is MUCH worse, but pretty landscaping doesn't make something vibrant, exhibit A being the Main Street Pocket Park.  It looks really nice, however the pictures lake posted above is an example of what I think of when I think of vibrancy.

Also, keep in mind if I was walking to 5 points, I would walk the most direct way, so the Row and Memorial Park (which in my opinion are two of the three highlights of that part of Riverside Avenue) don't really count as "on the way" to 5 Points.

Imagine this:

The Cummer (who now owns the Women's Club), and the Garden Club might look "pretty", however they don't really interact with their surroundings.  Imagine if the Cummer had a cafe on one of the outside walls, with ourdoor seating (the weather on Saturday was beautiful).  That would truly make it interactive with its surroundings.

You also have those thingsa that you mentioned, surrounded by 50's and 60's era Office Buildings that have setbacks and no interaction with the street.  Connectivity is not about a couple of diamonds in the rough, it's about a continuous strip of activity.  Imagine if the 1000 Riverside building had a nice sidewalk cafe that was open even 6 days a week.  That would add to the urban atmoswhere.

Another example where we have succeeded is Margaret St.  We took an area that looked "ok" at best, and with the Riverside Market Square deveopment and 1661 Riverside, we transformed the street to an area of shops and restaraunts.

Quote from: The Compound on April 06, 2009, 03:27:08 PM
I thought that was supposed to happen, but Im not sure when.

Yes, it is drawn up.  The residents at one of the towers opposed it, but everyone else supported it.  However, then the city realized that it wouldn't be free, so they shelved it.

There is no denying there is room for improvement and public transportation that functions better than our current bus-system and people-mover/monorail would be great... I just mean what we have in place now is pretty decent and 5 points and riverside has come a long way in the last several years.

QuoteIt certainly could be much worse, and Riverside in the other direction is MUCH worse, but pretty landscaping doesn't make something vibrant, exhibit A being the Main Street Pocket Park.  It looks really nice, however the pictures lake posted above is an example of what I think of when I think of vibrancy.

Also, keep in mind if I was walking to 5 points, I would walk the most direct way, so the Row and Memorial Park (which in my opinion are two of the three highlights of that part of Riverside Avenue) don't really count as "on the way" to 5 Points.

I consider parking on Margaret/ Herschel / Publix in the discussion of parking "at 5 points". 5 Points doesn't actually have a large amount of spots and is normally busy early Saturday.

Also complaining about the "vibrancy" of a 3 block walk is kinda ridiculous. Transportation, street cars, vendor quality and even alchohol sales are much more important than "I had to walk by an ugly building on a cruddy side walk". If you want a nice walk take Margaret to Riverside Ave. but I really think most don't care.

Quotebut I really think most don't care.

I agree, most probably don't care because they are driving. ;D

QuoteI agree, most probably don't care because they are driving.

Driving to where? There wasn't 40,000 parking spots in the immediate area.

If there were 40k visitors, most did not come from Riverside, since the neighborhood does not have 40k residents.  According to the estimates, there were only 10k people there at a time.  Considering there would be a good amount of turnover throughout the day, 40k spaces would not be needed.  Also, several people in the 40k number biked or came from the downtown area, via the Riverwalk.  Nevertheless, its probably a safe assumption to assume that most drove into the surrounding area, judging by the number of cars on the street and people on the sidewalks.

The parking lots at Fidelity were packed. Oh but of course it's 5 story car garage was locked up.

Brilliant!

QuoteNevertheless, its probably a safe assumption to assume that most drove into the surrounding area, judging by the number of cars on the street and people on the sidewalks.

I agree... and I'm saying a lot of people parked in the area of 5 points and walked over. I know that first hand as I walked back to 5 points amongst many many people who were returning to their cars.

My entire point was 2 fold
1. The walk back to 5 points via Riverside Ave/ Margaret is very nice.
2. The more direct less appealing route doesn't bother most people.

Could it be better / nicer? Sure. But that's not what most important for RAM.

Wow, what an active discussion. I can't answer everyone's concerns, but I have forwarded a link to this board to the RAM folks, who will be meeting Tuesday to discuss how things went.  Please keep in mind this was just the market's first day (albeit after thousands of hours of planning).  The mix of vendors and products at the market will be constantly changing, and the farmers market component will continue to grow.  

Many of you have noted that we want to find a way to encourage market goers to fan off into the rest of the area to continue their Saturday experience.  One idea that we're playing with is to have  an MP3 walking tour available either for iPod download from the RAP site, or directly at the RAP Market booth, that would use words and vintage photographs to sketch the history of the area.  We've already got an hour-long tour script complete for the St. Johns Quarter that takes you from Memorial Park, down to River Boulevard, and then through that area connecting eventually to Margaret and Oak.  We'll just add historical material for the stretch between RAM and Memorial Park, which is the starting point for the present tour. What do you think?? Would people be interested in this?

You wouldn't believe what used to be there along the strip that some of you think is now so bleak.  In fact, under the shell of that hideous office building on Riverside (the white stucco one that has a central glass line featuring . . . the stairwell), lies a fabulous old mansion that was "remade" by (not-so-good) architect Brooks Haas. Look at the massive stone corner foundation walls for a hint of what hides underneath . . .

I agree.. I really don't think people cared about the scenery walking to the art market. Publix was packed, 5 points was packed, off-street by riverside park was packed. All of the little streets around the area's offstreets were packed. So people didn't seem to have a problem walking.

QuoteMany of you have noted that we want to find a way to encourage market goers to fan off into the rest of the area to continue their Saturday experience.  One idea that we're playing with is to have  an MP3 walking tour available either for iPod download from the RAP site, or directly at the RAP Market booth, that would use words and vintage photographs to sketch the history of the area.  We've already got an hour-long tour script complete for the St. Johns Quarter that takes you from Memorial Park, down to River Boulevard, and then through that area connecting eventually to Margaret and Oak.  We'll just add historical material for the stretch between RAM and Memorial Park, which is the starting point for the present tour. What do you think?? Would people be interested in this?

Grimss, great idea.  I know this is something I would be interested in.  Its also a great way to pull people further into the historic district.

Quote from: Shwaz on April 06, 2009, 04:28:22 PM

QuoteNevertheless, its probably a safe assumption to assume that most drove into the surrounding area, judging by the number of cars on the street and people on the sidewalks.

I agree... and I'm saying a lot of people parked in the area of 5 points and walked over. I know that first hand as I walked back to 5 points amongst many many people who were returning to their cars.

My entire point was 2 fold
1. The walk back to 5 points via Riverside Ave/ Margaret is very nice.
2. The more direct less appealing route doesn't bother most people.

Could it be better / nicer? Sure. But that's not what most important for RAM.

Yes, in my post regarding the surrounding area's walkability (the one with the images), I said it had nothing to do with the market itself.  What I was taking about was something on a larger everyday type of vibrancy level.  If what I was taking about was in play, those sidewalks would stay busy on the six days RAM is not operational.  So I don't think neither of us is off in our assessments.  We're just talking about two totally different subtopics.

Quote from: JoeMerchant on April 06, 2009, 09:47:22 AM


"it would be how the "Art" Market wound up being just produce stands, meat pies, and women's jewelry"

It's too bad Moon River didn't have a booth set up, then your tunnel vision could have been focused directly on them.

Moon River serves Beer & Wine...

Quote from: CrysG on April 06, 2009, 10:35:39 AM
As those of you who are saying Magic Kingdom at Disney serves alcohol might want to double check. According to the Disney website they do not. It was Walt's wishes never to serve alcohol there.

I've personally had alcoholic beverages inside the Magic Kingdom.

Again, I'm not making this up. I've been to Circuit Parties inside there before.

Dont forget the parking available further up riverside.  I parked next to the old fire house and that lot was full.  The lot next to the YMCA was full... I heard many folks walked from Times Union lots.  I saw thousands of people discovering the riverwalk for the first time... entire groups of people stopping and pointing at the sites before them.  The Tillie Fowler Sculputure was discovered by hundreds of people who would have never seen it.

The number of people who would have never used riverwalk except for this event is a win, win, win for everybody!

It's interesting that you should point this out BT. When they first announced this event I somehow got the idea that the tents and everything would be set up all along the actual riverwalk. Having it under the Fuller Warren is a good idea in case of bad weather but could you imagine how it would look like if it were the other way? Hundreds of people all along the north bank instead of hidden beneath a major highway.

If they could get away with that, it might draw even more people. It would be much more visible to anyone that hasn’t heard about it yet and just happens to be driving across the bridges, probably wondering what all the commotion is.

No doubt... a possible expansion opportunity... provided this thing has staying power!

Quote from: Bewler on April 07, 2009, 11:18:18 AM
It's interesting that you should point this out BT. When they first announced this event I somehow got the idea that the tents and everything would be set up all along the actual riverwalk. Having it under the Fuller Warren is a good idea in case of bad weather but could you imagine how it would look like if it were the other way? Hundreds of people all along the north bank instead of hidden beneath a major highway.
If they could get away with that, it might draw even more people. It would be much more visible to anyone that hasn’t heard about it yet and just happens to be driving across the bridges, probably wondering what all the commotion is.

The Riverwalk is too curvey around that area to be much good, plus it would create bottlenecks. I think the plan is to expand it toward Riverside Park and 5 points. They should shut down car traffic to Riverside avenue on these days and bring it out into the street. This would be safer for pedestrians. ANother idea is car valet. Some valet company would make a killing offering curbside valet somewhere near the entrance.

You're probably right, the tents and foot traffic would have to spill into property owned by Fidelity and other companies who probably wouldn't go for that. Still, it would be a cool sight from the road.

Edit: Yeah looking at it there would really only be room for like a few tents here and there. Maybe a smaller extension would work.