Metro Jacksonville

Walkable Streets: A Lesson for the JEDC

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/480586157_QRq9q-M.jpg)

Walkable communities have a healthy respect for people of all abilities, and has appropriate ramps, medians, refuges, crossings of driveways, sidewalks on all streets where needed, benches, shade and other basic amenities to make walking feasible and enjoyable for everyone.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/1023

Don't forget the T in Boston. When I did a summer program at the SMFA, that middle part of the road along the streetcar lane was a godsend.

Question: Is there something we can do about the glass in bike lanes? I mean, taking a day to go about and clean it up myself is something I would definitely do, but it's hard to put out the message that a bike is a method of transportation and not just a recreation when I can only ride on the sidewalks out of concern for my tires.

I don't know. Maybe this summer I'll spend Sundays cleaning up around my neighborhood, getting the mess from weekend partiers cleaned up. The city probably won't send someone out, the way the times are.

It's late February so they will probably send out the leaf vacuums if they haven't already.  When that happens your glass needs to be where it will get swept up. I always timed the racking up of my leaves to when those big sweepers come out about this time of the year. ;)

There is virtually no data supporting the notion that installing  a raised median (vs. a middle turn lane) leads to an increase in speed....believe me, I've looked.

Also, it should be noted that the medians in the Arlington Road example do not meet FDOT's preferred minimum of 16' (the Green Book does allow for much smaller medians)...this might explain why there are no bike lanes.

I busted my bike in the warm days of December. I haven't been in Jax since late January, so I can't say anything about the roads now. But I'd still like to have the roads as safe as possible for bike traffic, and waiting for the city to do it just ain't my style.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 27, 2009, 08:39:12 AM
There is virtually no data supporting the notion that installing a raised median (vs. a middle turn lane) leads to an increase in speed....believe me, I've looked.

This would be oriented towards local streets (ex. San Marco Blvd, just south of I-95), but how about a raised median vs. not having a middle turn lane (or median) at all?  Perhaps increased speed is a result of limiting pedestrian movement through a combination of inaccessible medians, no crosswalks and no pedestrian crossing siding? 

QuoteAlso, it should be noted that the medians in the Arlington Road example do not meet FDOT's preferred minimum of 16' (the Green Book does allow for much smaller medians)...this might explain why there are no bike lanes.

I'm confused?  Since this stretch of Arlington Road is not maintained by FDOT, bike lanes could not be added?

Quote from: thelakelander on February 27, 2009, 09:52:50 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 27, 2009, 08:39:12 AM
There is virtually no data supporting the notion that installing a raised median (vs. a middle turn lane) leads to an increase in speed....believe me, I've looked.

This would be oriented towards local streets (ex. San Marco Blvd, just south of I-95), but how about a raised median vs. not having a middle turn lane (or median) at all?  Perhaps increased speed is a result of limiting pedestrian movement through a combination of inaccessible medians, no crosswalks and no pedestrian crossing siding? 

QuoteAlso, it should be noted that the medians in the Arlington Road example do not meet FDOT's preferred minimum of 16' (the Green Book does allow for much smaller medians)...this might explain why there are no bike lanes.

I'm confused?  Since this stretch of Arlington Road is not maintained by FDOT, bike lanes could not be added?

The Green Book generaly recommends medians no less than 10' wide (incluing the curbs)....and bike lanes would be a minimum of 4 feet (5' is preferred) on each side....looking at the pic, I don't think there is room for both.

Nice pix.  Very inspirational.  It tells me Jax is way, way, behind almost every other community in the world of any note.  Big and small, in and out of the U.S., it looks like nearly everyone has a rail system of some sort.  And we are no where close to getting it done based on the present agendas.

We just have the laughingstock of the transit world, the riderless $ky-high-way.  As Charlie Brown would say... "sighhhh!"

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/466446360_bPsJe-M.jpg)

Judging from the 7' wide proposed for Bay Street, it appears that the city is not following the Green Book's recommendations.  Nevertheless, I guess if a corridor is not wide enough for a median, parallel parking, bike lanes, etc., and if the goal is walkability & promoting alternative transit options, the median should probably be the one to go.

Lake, if an 11 foot lane is acceptable when a double lane, then maybe the single lane each way option could be 11.75 feet rather than 13. 5 feet.  This would give 2 x 1.75, or 3.5 feet to the median making it 10.5 feet.

How's that?

Stjr, for me, the width really doesn't matter as long as they are designed to promote walkability or other forms of sustainable transit use without becoming a barrier.

In Bay Street's case, if JTA really wants a streetcar line down that corridor, then that particular median should be wide enough to accomodate track.  If its being done for beautification purposes, just make sure its designed to accomodate pedestrian use.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 27, 2009, 12:41:21 PM

Judging from the 7' wide proposed for Bay Street, it appears that the city is not following the Green Book's recommendations.  Nevertheless, I guess if a corridor is not wide enough for a median, parallel parking, bike lanes, etc., and if the goal is walkability & promoting alternative transit options, the median should probably be the one to go.

they probably are still ok...the Green Book allows (just discourages) medians less than 10'....we have proposed a 4' "traffic separator" on SW 13th Street in Gainesville next to the new Shands Hospital....could have probably done a regular median, but FDOT shrank the lane widths down a few years ago to add bike lanes....all in all a good thing!

The Green Book generally recommends medians no less than 10' wide (including the curbs)....and bike lanes would be a minimum of 4 feet (5' is preferred) on each side....looking at the pic, I don't think there is room for both.

The minimum requirement for bike lanes is 4-ft. and Arlington Road has 4 12-travel lanes and a 12-ft. median.  The oak trees also required this width so there will eventually be a canopy on this stretch of the road.  If bike lanes were put it, then the city would have had to rip up the curb, adjust the drainage, and remove a sidewalk on one side of the street.  I wish there could be bike lanes on every road, but I guess we have to live within our limitations.

Unlike most of Jax, Arlington has a pretty good grid network of streets.  Its too late now, but we could have just went without a median or gone from 4 to 2 travel lanes along that stretch.  After all, traffic is not heavy along that stretch of Arlington Road.

Don't know exactly where this should be posted, but here's some interesting news for pedestrians: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/26/times-square-to-be-turned_n_170232.html

Yep, the future is car-less urban cores travelled only by public, human-powered, and/or delivery/service vehicle transits.  I believe this is even further along in some international cities.  New York is finally at a point where you simply can not functionally squeeze any more people and vehicles, together, in one small space.

Too bad we have to wait to reach these physical limits before we make changes like this.

Quotehere's some interesting news for pedestrians: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/26/times-square-to-be-turned_n_170232.html

I made several suggestions re: pedestrian "mall" space in downtown beginning in 2005. In 2006, I was even so bold as to make the suggestion to the JEDC's Retail Development Task Force. I think others on metrojacksonville.com have made the pedestrian mall suggestion about Laura St. Every time the suggestion has been made, the politicians, anyone involved in local commercial real estate development/brokerage, and even some of the planners, have been opposed. "The presence of cars adds to urban vibrancy!!!" has been the refrain. Sure, but so does the presence of people!

Jacksonville, and those that have the influence to make these types of decisions, still don't get it. Maybe now that the ultimate "big boy" is doing it, someone in Jacksonville will be bold enough to give it a try.

There is a time and place for everything.  What good is a pedestrian mall if there are no pedestrians? What works in an area with the density of Manhattan will not necessarily work in a surface parking lot filled sprawlburg like Jax.

Its well known that many cities tried the downtown pedestrian mall thing in the 1970s and early 80s.  In most cases, the concept quickly killed the rest of those downtown's retail presence.  The success stories were cities that had decent density and a pedestrian presence in downtown already. 

In this case, there is no need to go down this path, at this point.  We went there once and it failed big time.  Lets get some vibrant density first before we revisit that idea.

I'd like to make the case for some ordinary actions that anyone can take to make an area with sidewalks more pedestrian friendly. When walking, take note of the surroundings:

• Is there a light pole, switching box or other utility in the way of pedestrian flow?
• Is there time for a slow moving person to cross the street or are lights changing too fast?
• Is the sidewalk protected from the noise and buffeting of fast moving traffic by landscaping, parking lanes or bike lanes
• Does the sidewalk have a destination, can you reach the destination without having to leave the sidewalk?
• Is there trash, broken glass or other hazards on the sidewalk?
• Could a person in a wheel chair or using a walker make it down the sidewalk or is there too much broken pavement or other obstacles?

And then COMPLAIN TO THE CITY! Give them a location list and keep at them until it is fixed. Jacksonville has a very poor rating for pedestrian safety. Sidewalks, where they exist, should be friendly to use for everyone. 

Quote from: stephendare on March 01, 2009, 08:34:18 AM
Zoo.  The City did try it in a pretty big way.

In 1982-84, Hemming Park was turned into Hemming Plaza, all the sidewalks down Laura and Hogan were widened, and the idea was to eliminate traffic in the interior and get all the parking on the exterior.

The Downtown went from 5 million sq ft of retail to less than on million in 2 years and the retail environment closed down almost utterly.

Hemming Park went from being one of the busiest areas of the city to an abandoned Sartre' scene by 1991.  It was awful.

QuoteThere is a time and place for everything.  What good is a pedestrian mall if there are no pedestrians? What works in an area with the density of Manhattan will not necessarily work in a surface parking lot filled sprawlburg like Jax.

Its well known that many cities tried the downtown pedestrian mall thing in the 1970s and early 80s.  In most cases, the concept quickly killed the rest of those downtown's retail presence.  The success stories were cities that had decent density and a pedestrian presence in downtown already.

In this case, there is no need to go down this path, at this point.  We went there once and it failed big time.  Lets get some vibrant density first before we revisit that idea.

The Hemming Plaza went way over on construction completion.  The extended torn up area did wonders to hurt area retailers.  Then, they built the Skyway and the same process was repeated.  More retailers died.  Eliminating hordes of street parking, rising garage rates, no downtown housing, business abandoning the core, no assistance from the City, etc. sealed the fate of downtown retail.

St. George Street in St. Augustine thrives.  There are no high rises, low density, etc.  It works because a creative, historic, charming, pedestrian friendly environment that is somewhat well marketed is present.  In fact, in some ways, St. Johns Town Center is a semi-pedestrian mall concept.  I would say most people would call that a huge success.  Another model might be Pier 39 in San Francisco.  As a pier, you can't create more obstacles to this success than surrounding it on three sides with water.  Yet, it thrives.

Once again, we are thinking in a straight-jacket.  What we have now is an abysmal failure.  There isn't much out there that could be any worse and likely, only better.

A pedestrian mall with vibrant retail, eating, and entertainment destinations would likely thrive provided there is affordable nearby parking and good public transit access along with good marketing and festival-style events.

We are once again, being wimps.

St. Augustine is visited by millions of destination tourists every year, Jacksonville is not.   That is comparing apples to oranges. What tourist come to Jax are either here for a football game or just passing through.    For every successful pedestrian mall, there have been ten failures.  A successful pedestrian mall is a rare commodity.     

Here are a few articles that discuss the success and failure of pedestrian malls in the United States.  Imo, the closet thing to having one in town that would work, would be opening the Landing's courtyard up to Laura Street.

QuoteIn the 1960s and early 1970s many mid-sized cities in the United States experimented with installing pedestrian malls in their downtown areas, as a response to the commercial success of self-contained edge-of-town shopping malls. Downtown retailers wanted to preserve their businesses; the cities wanted to defend their tax base. In 1959, Kalamazoo, Michigan became the first American city to adopt a pedestrian mall for their downtown area, closing two blocks of Burdick Street to automobile traffic. Ironically, they were working from a plan by Victor Gruen Associates, the same firm responsible for the first modern shopping mall in the country, Northland Shopping Mall in suburban Detroit.

In 1997 there were about 30 pedestrian malls in the U.S. Some notable examples are the Church Street Marketplace in Burlington, Vermont; the Downtown Mall in Charlottesville, Virginia; Ann Arbor, Michigan; Oak Park, Illinois; the Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica, California; the Buffalo Place Main Street Pedestrian Mall in Buffalo, New York; Ithaca Commons in Ithaca, New York; the Pearl Street Mall in Boulder, Colorado; St. Charles, Missouri; Salem, Massachusetts; Ped Mall in Iowa City, Iowa; Lincoln Road in Miami Beach, Florida; the Fulton Mall in Fresno, California; the 16th Street Mall in Denver, Colorado; State Street in Madison, Wisconsin; Nicollet Mall in Minneapolis, Minnesota; The Grove in Los Angeles, California; Fort Street Mall in Honolulu, Hawaii; City Center in Oakland, California; Downtown Crossing and Faneuil Hall/Quincy Market in Boston; Washington Street Mall in Cape May, New Jersey; and many others. Typically these downtown pedestrian malls were three or four linear blocks simply blocked off to private street traffic, with fountains, benches, sittable planters, bollards, playgrounds, interfaces to public transit and other amenities installed to attract shoppers.

Most of these experiments were failures in the respect that they cut off automobile traffic from retailers. Most were re-converted to accommodate automobile traffic within twenty years (originally 200 were founded of which around 30 remain). However, some of these areas are still popular attractions today. The Pearl Street Mall in Boulder continues to thrive with its college crowd atmosphere and the Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica thrives on tourist traffic. The Downtown Mall in Charlottesville, Virginia, now a vital business, entertainment, and retail area, spent roughly twenty years as a somewhat depressed stretch until an ice skating rink and multiplex opened on it in the mid-1990s. Broadway St. in Eugene, Oregon, is finally being developed with a hotel, movie theater, and retail after decades of limited economic activity following its experiment with a pedestrian mall. The Federal Plaza in Downtown Youngstown, Ohio is a similar case. Since the unsuccessful Federal Plaza has been ripped up and redesigned in 2004, the city of Youngstown has seen the development of a new entertainment district erupt. A new arena, two new courthouses, federal buildings, bistros and other new night-spots have placed themselves in Youngstown's core. Burlington, Vermont's Church Street Marketplace has been expanded from the original three blocks to four, encompassing the entirety of the city's commercial "main street," and remains a thriving cultural center with shops, restaurants, vendor carts, sidewalk performers and special events which does not appear to be affected by the development of big box store farms in neighboring Williston, Vermont. Poughkeepsie, New York, on the other hand, has reverted its Main Mall to vehicular traffic, having failed at maintaining a place pedestrians wanted to be (it was, at least in part, the initial success of the Main Mall which convinced Burlington to proceed with the Marketplace project).

Fire Island in Suffolk County, New York is car free east of the Fire Island Lighthouse and west of Smith Point County Park (with the exception of emergency vehicles)

The San Antonio River Walk is a special-case pedestrian street, one level down from the automobile street. The River Walk winds and loops under bridges as two parallel sidewalks lined with restaurants and shops, connecting the major tourist draws from Alamo Plaza to Rivercenter, to HemisFair Plaza, to the Transit Tower. Most downtown buildings have street entrances and separate river entrances one level below. This separates the automotive service grid (delivery and ambulance/police vehicles) from pedestrian traffic below, provides bridges, walkways, and staircases, and attempts to balance retail, commercial, office, greenspace and cultural uses.

In the last decades of the 20th century many urbanists have listed and explained what they see as the virtues of pedestrian streets. Urban renewal activists have often pushed for the creation of auto-free zones in parts or in all of the sectors of a metropolitan area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car-free_zone

QuoteMore pedestrian malls fail than succeed, observers say
By Matt Branaugh, Camera Business Writer

When Madison, Wis., officials started hashing out the future of the city's most recognized street, several citizens attending public forums pointed to Boulder's Pearl Street Mall as the model for success.

Mary Lang Sollinger, who chairs a downtown Madison committee, decided talking wasn't nearly as good as walking: She rounded up several city planners in March and ventured here so they could see it themselves.

The three-day visit made a strong impression, encouraging some proposed changes to the 25-year-old State Street Mall, a six-block stretch in Madison mixing buses and pedestrians much like Denver's 16th Street Mall does.

"Because of Pearl Street, we're looking into building one of the blocks completely into pedestrian," Sollinger said.

But as Pearl Street embarks on its 25th anniversary, and often makes believers of other cities nationwide, observers say the landmark's success is a rarity.

Many cities have tried pedestrian malls. Most have failed.

The city of Greeley opted earlier this year to spend $2.6 million to scrap its downtown pedestrian mall â€" a project that cost more than $4 million to build 20 years ago. And Eugene, Ore., is spending $2.4 million to reconnect streets through its troubled outdoor mall.

"Most of the pedestrian malls in the country have not succeeded," said Kennedy Smith with the National Trust for Historic Preservation's National Main Street Center, a Washington, D.C.-based group focused on downtown areas. "It's really a credit to Boulder that it has succeeded."

Of the 200 or so pedestrian malls built during the past 40 years, Smith estimates only 30 remain today.

So what makes Pearl Street work?

"An enclosed shopping mall is an enclosed shopping mall. You could take a mall like Crossroads when it was healthy, or FlatIron Crossing, and you could pick up the whole thing and plunk it down in Boulder, Idaho, or Boulder, Ohio, or Boulder, Colo., and it would be the same thing," said Art Mart's General Manager Lou Patterson, whose family also ran The Printed Page on Pearl Street for more than 80 years. "This place is different."

No doubt the district boasts several characteristics that few â€" if any â€" can replicate. The four blocks are buttressed by historic, two-story brick buildings separated by an expanse of red brick walkway that's dissected by mature trees, shrubs, grassy spots and flowers.

Heading east, shoppers eventually work themselves out from under the dense tree cover, where recent renovations opened up the 1300 block for group events and a water fountain.

And heading west leads people to views of the Flatirons.

"The mall has maintained its quaint, small-town feeling," said Jean Gorton, manager of the Maclaren Markowitz Gallery on the west end of Pearl Street. "It's a unique setting with the beautiful views and with the mall leading to the mountains."

But for all of the things that make Pearl Street distinct, a look at the other successful pedestrian malls reveals each share some common traits, too.

Like many other successful malls, Pearl Street receives specially earmarked funding for maintenance and management each year. The money keeps the streets clean and organizes the many monthly events needed to draw people into the shopping districts.

At Burlington, Vermont's Church Street Marketplace, a 20-year-old center, a management group handles a $500,000 annual budget for maintenance, a jazz festival, a marathon and a Mardi Gras parade, among other events.

In Boulder, a $2 million budget comes from the city, Downtown Boulder Inc. and the city's Business Improvement District â€" a broad area of businesses including Pearl Street that tax themselves for services. The revenue helps maintain the area's aesthetics and pays for annual events ranging from an art fair to "Bands on the Bricks," Fourth of July activities to August sidewalk sales.

"The successful downtowns are the ones where property owners and merchants have stepped up to help fund ongoing programming, maintenance and marketing," said Ron Redmond, executive director for Church Street.

But money is only a starting point. Observers say a mall works best in a community that loves walking, and has a multitude of walkers nearby.

Boulder's fondness for biking and walking combines with its proximity to the University of Colorado and its roughly 17,000 Boulder students. The University of Vermont and about 9,000 students call Burlington home. And Ithaca, N.Y., home to the successful Commons pedestrian plaza, boasts two institutions of higher education: Ithaca College and Cornell University.

All three offer varying degrees of office space, adding downtown employees to the area.

Still, colleges alone can't carry pedestrian plazas. Eugene houses the University of Oregon, but that was not enough to keep its pedestrian mall viable. The right mix of retailers, and the right access to those merchants, are also vital, observers say.

Ithaca, Burlington and Boulder each emphasize locally owned businesses, although Ithaca offers more national chains â€" one official calls them a godsend â€" than the latter two do. Restaurants often use outdoor seating in each, helping create ambiance and intimacy along walkways.

"Our retail mix is a positive as well as the mix of employees. Our customers are built-in markets," said Jane Jenkins, executive director of Downtown Boulder. "We have a good market for this kind of facility."

And creating traffic flow to those places is also essential. Eugene officials often blame the mall's demise on a lack of street access to merchants.

In Boulder, one of the city's main arteries, Broadway, as well as 11th, 13th, 14th and 15th streets, slice through Pearl Street.

Despite the failures of pedestrian malls nationwide, Sollinger said she sees opportunity for the pedestrian concept at Madison's State Street.

The University of Wisconsin bookends one end of State Street while the state capitol neighbors the other end. Several streets intersect State Street. Local shops line the district.

State Street merchants want more city funding, she said, and communication between both sides must improve. Boulder has done a worthy job on those fronts, she said.

Sollinger also recognizes State Street must use its uniqueness, just as Boulder did.

"Unfortunately, we can't move those mountains over here," she said.

http://web.dailycamera.com/pearl/19xwor.html

Since this article was published, Franklin Street has been reopened to cars and new businesses have opened up along the old pedestrian mall stretch.

QuoteRoad to nowhere

(http://www.sptimes.com/News/041900/photos/bz-franklin1.jpg)

By KYLE PARKS
St. Petersburg Times, published April 19, 2000

TAMPA -- Almost 30 years after the city turned downtown Franklin Street into a pedestrian mall, it may be about to bring back the cars.

In 1973, Tampa leaders closed a five-block stretch of Franklin Street to traffic, hoping a pedestrian mall with brick-street ambience would keep shoppers from fleeing to suburban malls.

By the 1980s, the move had proven to be a disaster. As Tampa's downtown decayed, retailers left in droves. Now, even though the south end of downtown is filled with gleaming office towers crammed with workers, Franklin Street Mall could be described as sleepy at best.

Most stores on the north end of the mall are boarded up, while the south end is a ghost town after the lunch hour.

To try to turn it around, the Tampa Downtown Partnership and developer Jack Wilson are leading a drive to open Franklin Street to traffic, at least after lunch hour. Though their effort is still in the planning stages, they hope the city will include as much as $400,000 in the fiscal 2001 budget for street lights, landscaping and new sidewalks.

The idea: People driving by would discover the shops and restaurants, and car headlights would make pedestrians feel safer at night.

"This is happening all over the country because downtown pedestrian malls just aren't working," said Jim Cloar, president of the downtown partnership. Similar moves are in the works in Chicago; Philadelphia; Eugene, Ore.; Kalamazoo, Mich., and other cities, he said.

full article: http://www.sptimes.com/News/041900/Business/Road_to_nowhere.shtml

Here are a few images of Franklin today.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tampa/DCP_4175.jpg)
taken a few years ago, right after the reopening of the street

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8309-p1170853.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8283-p1170855.JPG)


The City of Raleigh also recently opened their failed pedestrian mall back to automobile traffic.


(http://wwwcache2.wral.com/asset/news/local/2005/01/18/115096/2770587-220x165.jpg) (http://www.jeeptick.com/cities/raleigh/P8040020.jpg)

QuoteFayetteville Street Mall.  This is the Fayetteville Street Mall, one of Raleigh's biggest architectural blunders.  Let's take the main street coming from the south and close it to traffic.  While it is fairly interesting looking, most of the businesses there have relocated.  The plan now is to dig it up and open it to traffic and parking again.

http://www.jeeptick.com/cities/raleigh/

Fayetteville Street today.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-606-dsc01831.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-618-raleighskyline_com_19.jpg)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4815-p1020119.jpg)

Quote from: thelakelander on March 01, 2009, 06:40:03 PM
Here are a few articles that discuss the success and failure of pedestrian malls in the United States.  Imo, the closet thing to having one in town that would work, would be opening the Landing's courtyard up to Laura Street.

QuoteIn the 1960s and early 1970s many mid-sized cities in the United States experimented with installing pedestrian malls in their downtown areas, as a response to the commercial success of self-contained edge-of-town shopping malls. Downtown retailers wanted to preserve their businesses; the cities wanted to defend their tax base. In 1959, Kalamazoo, Michigan became the first American city to adopt a pedestrian mall for their downtown area, closing two blocks of Burdick Street to automobile traffic. Ironically, they were working from a plan by Victor Gruen Associates, the same firm responsible for the first modern shopping mall in the country, Northland Shopping Mall in suburban Detroit.

In 1997 there were about 30 pedestrian malls in the U.S. Some notable examples are the Church Street Marketplace in Burlington, Vermont; the Downtown Mall in Charlottesville, Virginia; Ann Arbor, Michigan; Oak Park, Illinois; the Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica, California; the Buffalo Place Main Street Pedestrian Mall in Buffalo, New York; Ithaca Commons in Ithaca, New York; the Pearl Street Mall in Boulder, Colorado; St. Charles, Missouri; Salem, Massachusetts; Ped Mall in Iowa City, Iowa; Lincoln Road in Miami Beach, Florida; the Fulton Mall in Fresno, California; the 16th Street Mall in Denver, Colorado; State Street in Madison, Wisconsin; Nicollet Mall in Minneapolis, Minnesota; The Grove in Los Angeles, California; Fort Street Mall in Honolulu, Hawaii; City Center in Oakland, California; Downtown Crossing and Faneuil Hall/Quincy Market in Boston; Washington Street Mall in Cape May, New Jersey; and many others. Typically these downtown pedestrian malls were three or four linear blocks simply blocked off to private street traffic, with fountains, benches, sittable planters, bollards, playgrounds, interfaces to public transit and other amenities installed to attract shoppers.

Most of these experiments were failures in the respect that they cut off automobile traffic from retailers. Most were re-converted to accommodate automobile traffic within twenty years (originally 200 were founded of which around 30 remain). However, some of these areas are still popular attractions today. The Pearl Street Mall in Boulder continues to thrive with its college crowd atmosphere and the Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica thrives on tourist traffic. The Downtown Mall in Charlottesville, Virginia, now a vital business, entertainment, and retail area, spent roughly twenty years as a somewhat depressed stretch until an ice skating rink and multiplex opened on it in the mid-1990s. Broadway St. in Eugene, Oregon, is finally being developed with a hotel, movie theater, and retail after decades of limited economic activity following its experiment with a pedestrian mall. The Federal Plaza in Downtown Youngstown, Ohio is a similar case. Since the unsuccessful Federal Plaza has been ripped up and redesigned in 2004, the city of Youngstown has seen the development of a new entertainment district erupt. A new arena, two new courthouses, federal buildings, bistros and other new night-spots have placed themselves in Youngstown's core. Burlington, Vermont's Church Street Marketplace has been expanded from the original three blocks to four, encompassing the entirety of the city's commercial "main street," and remains a thriving cultural center with shops, restaurants, vendor carts, sidewalk performers and special events which does not appear to be affected by the development of big box store farms in neighboring Williston, Vermont. Poughkeepsie, New York, on the other hand, has reverted its Main Mall to vehicular traffic, having failed at maintaining a place pedestrians wanted to be (it was, at least in part, the initial success of the Main Mall which convinced Burlington to proceed with the Marketplace project).

Fire Island in Suffolk County, New York is car free east of the Fire Island Lighthouse and west of Smith Point County Park (with the exception of emergency vehicles)

The San Antonio River Walk is a special-case pedestrian street, one level down from the automobile street. The River Walk winds and loops under bridges as two parallel sidewalks lined with restaurants and shops, connecting the major tourist draws from Alamo Plaza to Rivercenter, to HemisFair Plaza, to the Transit Tower. Most downtown buildings have street entrances and separate river entrances one level below. This separates the automotive service grid (delivery and ambulance/police vehicles) from pedestrian traffic below, provides bridges, walkways, and staircases, and attempts to balance retail, commercial, office, greenspace and cultural uses.

In the last decades of the 20th century many urbanists have listed and explained what they see as the virtues of pedestrian streets. Urban renewal activists have often pushed for the creation of auto-free zones in parts or in all of the sectors of a metropolitan area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car-free_zone

QuoteMore pedestrian malls fail than succeed, observers say
By Matt Branaugh, Camera Business Writer

When Madison, Wis., officials started hashing out the future of the city's most recognized street, several citizens attending public forums pointed to Boulder's Pearl Street Mall as the model for success.

Mary Lang Sollinger, who chairs a downtown Madison committee, decided talking wasn't nearly as good as walking: She rounded up several city planners in March and ventured here so they could see it themselves.

The three-day visit made a strong impression, encouraging some proposed changes to the 25-year-old State Street Mall, a six-block stretch in Madison mixing buses and pedestrians much like Denver's 16th Street Mall does.

"Because of Pearl Street, we're looking into building one of the blocks completely into pedestrian," Sollinger said.

But as Pearl Street embarks on its 25th anniversary, and often makes believers of other cities nationwide, observers say the landmark's success is a rarity.

Many cities have tried pedestrian malls. Most have failed.

The city of Greeley opted earlier this year to spend $2.6 million to scrap its downtown pedestrian mall â€" a project that cost more than $4 million to build 20 years ago. And Eugene, Ore., is spending $2.4 million to reconnect streets through its troubled outdoor mall.

"Most of the pedestrian malls in the country have not succeeded," said Kennedy Smith with the National Trust for Historic Preservation's National Main Street Center, a Washington, D.C.-based group focused on downtown areas. "It's really a credit to Boulder that it has succeeded."

Of the 200 or so pedestrian malls built during the past 40 years, Smith estimates only 30 remain today.

So what makes Pearl Street work?

"An enclosed shopping mall is an enclosed shopping mall. You could take a mall like Crossroads when it was healthy, or FlatIron Crossing, and you could pick up the whole thing and plunk it down in Boulder, Idaho, or Boulder, Ohio, or Boulder, Colo., and it would be the same thing," said Art Mart's General Manager Lou Patterson, whose family also ran The Printed Page on Pearl Street for more than 80 years. "This place is different."

No doubt the district boasts several characteristics that few â€" if any â€" can replicate. The four blocks are buttressed by historic, two-story brick buildings separated by an expanse of red brick walkway that's dissected by mature trees, shrubs, grassy spots and flowers.

Heading east, shoppers eventually work themselves out from under the dense tree cover, where recent renovations opened up the 1300 block for group events and a water fountain.

And heading west leads people to views of the Flatirons.

"The mall has maintained its quaint, small-town feeling," said Jean Gorton, manager of the Maclaren Markowitz Gallery on the west end of Pearl Street. "It's a unique setting with the beautiful views and with the mall leading to the mountains."

But for all of the things that make Pearl Street distinct, a look at the other successful pedestrian malls reveals each share some common traits, too.

Like many other successful malls, Pearl Street receives specially earmarked funding for maintenance and management each year. The money keeps the streets clean and organizes the many monthly events needed to draw people into the shopping districts.

At Burlington, Vermont's Church Street Marketplace, a 20-year-old center, a management group handles a $500,000 annual budget for maintenance, a jazz festival, a marathon and a Mardi Gras parade, among other events.

In Boulder, a $2 million budget comes from the city, Downtown Boulder Inc. and the city's Business Improvement District â€" a broad area of businesses including Pearl Street that tax themselves for services. The revenue helps maintain the area's aesthetics and pays for annual events ranging from an art fair to "Bands on the Bricks," Fourth of July activities to August sidewalk sales.

"The successful downtowns are the ones where property owners and merchants have stepped up to help fund ongoing programming, maintenance and marketing," said Ron Redmond, executive director for Church Street.

But money is only a starting point. Observers say a mall works best in a community that loves walking, and has a multitude of walkers nearby.

Boulder's fondness for biking and walking combines with its proximity to the University of Colorado and its roughly 17,000 Boulder students. The University of Vermont and about 9,000 students call Burlington home. And Ithaca, N.Y., home to the successful Commons pedestrian plaza, boasts two institutions of higher education: Ithaca College and Cornell University.

All three offer varying degrees of office space, adding downtown employees to the area.

Still, colleges alone can't carry pedestrian plazas. Eugene houses the University of Oregon, but that was not enough to keep its pedestrian mall viable. The right mix of retailers, and the right access to those merchants, are also vital, observers say.

Ithaca, Burlington and Boulder each emphasize locally owned businesses, although Ithaca offers more national chains â€" one official calls them a godsend â€" than the latter two do. Restaurants often use outdoor seating in each, helping create ambiance and intimacy along walkways.

"Our retail mix is a positive as well as the mix of employees. Our customers are built-in markets," said Jane Jenkins, executive director of Downtown Boulder. "We have a good market for this kind of facility."

And creating traffic flow to those places is also essential. Eugene officials often blame the mall's demise on a lack of street access to merchants.

In Boulder, one of the city's main arteries, Broadway, as well as 11th, 13th, 14th and 15th streets, slice through Pearl Street.

Despite the failures of pedestrian malls nationwide, Sollinger said she sees opportunity for the pedestrian concept at Madison's State Street.

The University of Wisconsin bookends one end of State Street while the state capitol neighbors the other end. Several streets intersect State Street. Local shops line the district.

State Street merchants want more city funding, she said, and communication between both sides must improve. Boulder has done a worthy job on those fronts, she said.

Sollinger also recognizes State Street must use its uniqueness, just as Boulder did.

"Unfortunately, we can't move those mountains over here," she said.

http://web.dailycamera.com/pearl/19xwor.html

Cities "using the term loosely" I grew up with in north alabama, Boaz and Albertville, both tried the urban mall and destroyed themselves.  What was a fairly active downtown, with small shops, hardware stores, barber shops turned into a ghost town.  Both cities have since destroyed the urban malls and have been trying to reestablish themselves.

Quote from: vicupstate on March 01, 2009, 06:22:33 PM
St. Augustine is visited by millions of destination tourists every year, Jacksonville is not.   That is comparing apples to oranges. What tourist come to Jax are either here for a football game or just passing through.    For every successful pedestrian mall, there have been ten failures.  A successful pedestrian mall is a rare commodity.     

The St. George Street pedestrian mall working in a tourist area was intended as but one both successful and nearby example of the concept.  (There is no reason tourists couldn't visit our pedestrian mall if done right, creating a new and vital element to invigorating downtown.  Tying it to museums, event sites such as a convention center and/or the civic auditorium/Florida Theater, and other currently non-existent tourist attractions may be other ideas.  And, I see plenty of Jax residents on St. George St. when I visit.  These people could also be shopping in downtown Jax.)  Clearly, no two malls are the same.  In the end, it goes back to the mantra I often refer to, EXECUTION.

As alluded to in my previous post, the right amenities, mix of stores, promotion, and access to parking and public transit all play into what degree of success can be attained.  Landscaping, cleanliness, event promotion, and marketing are important, too.

Lake posts several interesting articles.  Searching Google I found a few more sites focusing on the successful pedestrian or, as they are called in some places, car-free zones.  The full exclusion of cars appears to vary, mainly due to whether cross streets are left open.   Maybe a hybrid, in which cars are replaced with a trolley or light rail, could work.  Allowing bikes may also be a factor.

While we should learn from both the failures and the successes, it is the successes that should inspire us to consider the idea.  And, remember, in our case, we already have virtually no activity in the area, even with the presence of auto traffic.

Like it or not, major world cities will be forced to adopt car-free thoroughfares at some point, like New York, as there is always going to be a physical limit to what can fit in a given area and still function (aside from how much exhaust the air can absorb).  As these experiences build, I expect you will see a template develop that will help further enhance the possibilities of success.

Stjr, pick a corridor that you would propose for a pedestrian mall and lets discuss the pros and cons to making it successful.  Btw, I don't think anyone here does not like the concept.  Its more about if the concept will work in our toxic setting.

Lake, one good possibility already in play, is Laura Street (or Laura Landing?).  I would look at taking it from a REBUILT and opened up Jax Landing (also already proposed) to Hemming Plaza.

An in-person street survey would be necessary to confirm my recollections, but I don't believe there are any parking garage entries facing this street with the exception to the Modis Building.  Perhaps a narrow "driveway" from Bay could be preserved to access this. 

Events could take place on both ends, at the Landing and Hemming Plaza. You have a natural attraction (in addition to the Landing itself), passing through the Landing, to both the riverfront and the Riverwalk (where there is also a river taxi stop for visitors crossing from/to the Southbank).  At Hemming Plaza you have anchors in City Hall and the Federal Courthouse and (bite my tongue) a $ky-high-way station.  You have additional attractions with the new library and the MOCA (who, it appears could greatly benefit from additional foot traffic).  Along this street are two of Jax's largest office towers, Modis and Bank of America, both loaded with better paid professional firms' employees eligible for shopping and eating out.  Laura Street is also roughly at the epicenter, geographically and activity-wise of downtown.

Within about 3 or 4 blocks either way, you likely have covered many of downtown's most desired locations including the Times Union Center and the Florida Theater.  Also, the main travel axis, excluding Main Street and Broad/Jefferson Streets which feed the bridges, is more east/west, than north/south, so taking out this north/south street should have less traffic consequences.

An allowance could be maintained for single or double trolley/light rail tracks at some point down the middle.

I would also consider closing the one way west section of Water Street from Hogan to Ocean and the awkward side ramp from the Landing on to the Main Street Bridge (As I recall, this ramp is not even original to the bridge). The westbound traffic on Water Street could be redirected down Hogan to then continue west on Forsyth.  This would create an additional gathering area/plaza in front of the Landing for more activities such as art festivals, music, Landing event overflows, etc. and provide pedestrian access from the east side of Main Street and any Bay Street eateries or bars without having to cross Main Street.

The City will need to do a better job of marketing public parking spaces downtown including much needed directional signage.  And, maybe it will finally build along Hogan the much promised "Landing" parking garage which could provide nearly 1000 additional spaces in proximity to the action. Good lighting, traffic control, security, and cleanliness will have to be maintained to comfort visitors (don't forget some public bathrooms).  Perhaps the sign ordinance could be liberalized to provide some "Times Square" type or other creative signage on buildings.

Imagine an evening with several restaurants to chose from, a concert at the Landing, another group playing at Hemming Plaza, MOCA and the library open late with cultural events, and a variety of small, local shops at street level open late to take in some extra business.  Up and down Laura would be a perpetual street fair with street performers and vendors, various arts and crafts stands and food carts, souvenir tables, special and/or seasonal exhibits, etc.  See Duval Street in Key West for some ideas.  There, they have massages, palm readings, exotic animals, and even bars open right along the edge of the street to capture business and add excitement.   Love birds could top off the evening with a romantic stroll along the riverfront.  If you are a tourist, you could walk a block to the Omni or amble along the Riverwalk back to the Hyatt.  We could even add our own version of TKTS in Times Square by having a kiosk to for people to buy last minute unsold tickets to downtown theater and cultural events.

And guess what - we have a proven demonstration of all this already:  The week of the Superbowl when most of Water Street and the Main Street bridge, along with Bay Street, were completely closed as tens of thousands of people enjoyed a multi-mile street fair!

Just think how many more people would visit downtown during Florida/Georgia, Jaguars, and Gator Bowl games along with other events like the Jax Film Festival, the Jazz Festival (maybe part of this would take place on Laura Street and/or in Hemming Plaza), July 4th, New Years Eve, major concerts, arena sporting events, and the TPC.  New events could be created like a Spring and Fall Festival, a food and/or wine festival, etc.  Laura Street could also be designed to perhaps be incorporated into city parade routes.  We could maybe have our own version of Disney's Electrical Light Parade designed by our own Sally Industries followed by fireworks along the river.

One day, if hugely successful, the pedestrian strip could be extended to FCCJ's campus where perhaps some student housing might one day be built providing another audience.  The JTA bus terminal would now also be within a block.

With our favorable year round weather, a decent employment core downtown, increasing downtown residential options, and the waterfront, I think we could make this work.  Again, it's all about EXECUTION.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/03/01/would_car_traffic_bring_back_the_crowds/

an article today about downtown crossing in boston.

A pedestrian Mall along Laura tied with all the other walkable areas downtown might work if the convention center was moved to the old courthouse site.  Convention attendees would have a short walk (or trolley) along the riverwalk to the landing area to the pedestrian mall on Laura

Quote from: stjr on March 02, 2009, 01:26:09 AM
Lake, one good possibility already in play, is Laura Street (or Laura Landing?).  I would look at taking it from a REBUILT and opened up Jax Landing (also already proposed) to Hemming Plaza.

While it sounds good on the surface, when all things are considered it would most likely fail.  I'll explain below.

QuoteAn in-person street survey would be necessary to confirm my recollections, but I don't believe there are any parking garage entries facing this street with the exception to the Modis Building.  Perhaps a narrow "driveway" from Bay could be preserved to access this.

You are right.  Other than a surface lot entrance at Forsyth & Laura, the only garage entrance along this stretch is Modis.  However, there are also no back alleys in this area.  Totally eliminating automobile traffic from the street would make it more difficult for mid block businesses (ex. LaCena, Chamblins , etc.) receive goods.  Pass-by visibility and accessibility would also be reduced for these businesses.  However, other than the service situation, these other issues could be overcome if there were decent anchors at both end points, limited landscaping and a revised signage code to allow larger business signage to hang off the buildings.

QuoteEvents could take place on both ends, at the Landing and Hemming Plaza. You have a natural attraction (in addition to the Landing itself), passing through the Landing, to both the riverfront and the Riverwalk (where there is also a river taxi stop for visitors crossing from/to the Southbank).  At Hemming Plaza you have anchors in City Hall and the Federal Courthouse and (bite my tongue) a $ky-high-way station.  You have additional attractions with the new library and the MOCA (who, it appears could greatly benefit from additional foot traffic).  Along this street are two of Jax's largest office towers, Modis and Bank of America, both loaded with better paid professional firms' employees eligible for shopping and eating out.  Laura Street is also roughly at the epicenter, geographically and activity-wise of downtown.

While Laura may be the geographic epicenter in downtown, its not for traffic.  Over the years, traffic flow has changed to the point where most drive by downtown without even realizing there is a Laura Street.  So an effort would have to be made to get people to agree to pay to park and walk to an area with limited retail possibilities.

I'll agree that the Landing is a viable anchor.  However, the middle and north ends are anchored by establishments that empty out at 6pm on weekdays and remain closed on weekends.  Until these uses change or mixed-use density is increased, this stretch would go dark most nights (temporary events are nice, but you can't throw them 24/7)

QuoteWithin about 3 or 4 blocks either way, you likely have covered many of downtown's most desired locations including the Times Union Center and the Florida Theater.  Also, the main travel axis, excluding Main Street and Broad/Jefferson Streets which feed the bridges, is more east/west, than north/south, so taking out this north/south street should have less traffic consequences.

Outside of State & Union, east/west traffic dies when the offices empty out.  The main travel axis is north/south via Main/Ocean and Broad/Jefferson.  Unfortunately, for Laura Street, both bypass the corridor.

QuoteAn allowance could be maintained for single or double trolley/light rail tracks at some point down the middle.

Other than the fact that JTA may be afraid to commit to building a streetcar line anytime soon, a rail line down Laura would parallel the skyway.  Money spent on putting rail in that area would be better used to stretch a streetcar system into Springfield, the stadium area or Riverside.

QuoteThe City will need to do a better job of marketing public parking spaces downtown including much needed directional signage.  And, maybe it will finally build along Hogan the much promised "Landing" parking garage which could provide nearly 1000 additional spaces in proximity to the action. Good lighting, traffic control, security, and cleanliness will have to be maintained to comfort visitors (don't forget some public bathrooms).  Perhaps the sign ordinance could be liberalized to provide some "Times Square" type or other creative signage on buildings.

All these are great ideas that should be implemented regardless of making Laura a pedestrian mall or not.  We've been fighting this fight for years and we still can't get DVI and the city to make a real move on these things.

QuoteImagine an evening with several restaurants to chose from, a concert at the Landing, another group playing at Hemming Plaza, MOCA and the library open late with cultural events, and a variety of small, local shops at street level open late to take in some extra business.  Up and down Laura would be a perpetual street fair with street performers and vendors, various arts and crafts stands and food carts, souvenir tables, special and/or seasonal exhibits, etc.

In the long run, this may be feasible, but until many of the things mentioned above (directional parking signage, wayfaring signage, revising the sign ordinance, altering vehicle traffic flow, better anchors on the north end, MOCAJax/library open at night, more mixed-use density, etc.) are taken care of, it will struggle.

QuoteSee Duval Street in Key West for some ideas.  There, they have massages, palm readings, exotic animals, and even bars open right along the edge of the street to capture business and add excitement.   Love birds could top off the evening with a romantic stroll along the riverfront.  If you are a tourist, you could walk a block to the Omni or amble along the Riverwalk back to the Hyatt.  We could even add our own version of TKTS in Times Square by having a kiosk to for people to buy last minute unsold tickets to downtown theater and cultural events.

What works in a long time tourist district like Duval Street won't immediately work in a sprawler not known for tourism.  It will take time to build something of this magnitude up to actually work.

QuoteAnd guess what - we have a proven demonstration of all this already:  The week of the Superbowl when most of Water Street and the Main Street bridge, along with Bay Street, were completely closed as tens of thousands of people enjoyed a multi-mile street fair!

That was a circus.  After the game, everything packed up, left and reality set in.  For a pedestrian mall to remain viable long term, it will need built-in density, a residential/tourist population base, true retail anchors and a mass revision of zoning codes to be in place.

QuoteJust think how many more people would visit downtown during Florida/Georgia, Jaguars, and Gator Bowl games along with other events like the Jax Film Festival, the Jazz Festival (maybe part of this would take place on Laura Street and/or in Hemming Plaza), July 4th, New Years Eve, major concerts, arena sporting events, and the TPC.  New events could be created like a Spring and Fall Festival, a food and/or wine festival, etc.  Laura Street could also be designed to perhaps be incorporated into city parade routes.  We could maybe have our own version of Disney's Electrical Light Parade designed by our own Sally Industries followed by fireworks along the river.

One day, if hugely successful, the pedestrian strip could be extended to FCCJ's campus where perhaps some student housing might one day be built providing another audience.  The JTA bus terminal would now also be within a block.

With our favorable year round weather, a decent employment core downtown, increasing downtown residential options, and the waterfront, I think we could make this work.  Again, it's all about EXECUTION.

The same environment can happen with the street still open to cars.  However, it will fail if auto traffic is cut off before the negatives (better anchors, parking/signage situation) mentioned above are addressed.

If you think about it, we already have a three block "car free" zone at the Landing.  However, other than the central courtyard area, its always struggled.  I think the best chance we have at implementing an open air pedestrian mall would be to open the Landing courtyard up to Laura Street and Independent Drive.  Anything north of Independent Drive, before DTs problems are addressed, would be overkill.

Lake, thanks for the detailed response.  What I think we have here is a chicken and egg situation.   I think we can both agree that status quo is going nowhere soon.  So how do we change the paradigm?  I am suggesting it will need to be more than by piecemeal.

You concede that Laura is already bypassed by most even with auto accessibility.  To me, this is an important factor in making it a prime pedestrian mall candidate. A conversion can't generate any less traffic than presently and shouldn't cause an upheaval in downtown traffic.  If most or all cross streets are left open, auto and delivery traffic is never more than a half block away.  A pedestrian mall could even be designed to allow service vehicles in off hours, such as late nights/early mornings, and for emergency vehicles.

People here keep saying we don't have tourists.  Well, we never will until we give them something to see and do.  This would be intended to double as a tourist magnet.

By the way, another advantage to Laura Street would be that it will pull people into the non-waterfront center of the City which currently has little attraction to pedestrian traffic.   With more circulation further inward, perhaps there would be more retail and entertainment vitality on the many cross streets.

Given what we waste on other projects in the community, I think this could provide a huge bang for the buck.  We both also seem to agree that EXECUTION is critical.  You don't seem to think we are up to it.  I say we SHOULD be and NEED to be.  Accepting second or third class will get us nowhere.  Let's make this a priority and incorporate it into our master plan.  Maybe we can get some stimulus money for it and do it sooner than later.

Quote from: stjr on March 02, 2009, 12:11:45 PMYou concede that Laura is already bypassed by most even with auto accessibility.  To me, this is an important factor in making it a prime pedestrian mall candidate. A conversion can't generate any less traffic than presently and shouldn't cause an upheaval in downtown traffic.  If most or all cross streets are left open, auto and delivery traffic is never more than a half block away.  A pedestrian mall could even be designed to allow service vehicles in off hours, such as late nights/early mornings, and for emergency vehicles.

Ever notice what happens to an enclosed mall when one of the anchors shut down?  Unless, its replaced with something, all the small shops on that wing tend to die out.  We can close streets, but the lack of a decent anchor on the north end to generate traffic at nights and on weekends would still be needed.  Even with MOCA Jax and the library staying open late in the evening, they don't have to pull to fill in small retail shops over a four block stretch.

QuotePeople here keep saying we don't have tourists.  Well, we never will until we give them something to see and do.  This would be intended to double as a tourist magnet.

I didn't say we don't have tourist.  I said we don't have anything on the level of what visits Key West.  History has proven that tourist don't visit because of pedestrian malls.  If attracting tourism is the goal, the city should be focusing more on beefing up its cultural attractions and promoting its history.

QuoteBy the way, another advantage to Laura Street would be that it will pull people into the non-waterfront center of the City which currently has little attraction to pedestrian traffic.   With more circulation further inward, perhaps there would be more retail and entertainment vitality on the many cross streets.

Sidewalks and plants won't pull people off the waterfront.  You need a viable destination anchor to do this.  Spaces that shut down at 6pm and a multi block church don't qualify as viable main anchors.

QuoteGiven what we waste on other projects in the community, I think this could provide a huge bang for the buck.  We both also seem to agree that EXECUTION is critical.  You don't seem to think we are up to it.  I say we SHOULD be and NEED to be.  Accepting second or third class will get us nowhere.  Let's make this a priority and incorporate it into our master plan.  Maybe we can get some stimulus money for it and do it sooner than later.

I'm not sold a pedestrian mall is first class.  While I would not advocate putting in a full blown highway, a well balanced corridor featuring transit, limited vehicular access and sidewalks can't be first class.

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Automobile accessibility/visibility is just as important as pedestrian accessibility/visibility to retailers.  Instead of completely eliminating one from the mix, the better option would be to attempt strike a balance.  With that said, I think what the JEDC currently has planned for Laura Street is on the right path, for the most part.  After all, if you want to have a festival, you can always temporarily shut the entire street down.

Current Laura Street plans
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http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/790/119/

How about a little "COLOMBIA" on Laura?

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Has any thought been given to doing Hogan AND Laura? IF we kept them one way, with a single lane, then with a 30 foot roadway we could have an 18' long (regular) angle parking on one side and a 12' traffic lane behind that. More or less what San Marco or Five Points have, but limited to one side. The buildings all seem to be 60 feet apart with a slight + / -  meaning we'd get 30' to play with, plant, decorate etc...

My dream? The Hogan - Monroe - Laura - Water Street shuttle bus... "Want to ride?"
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BTW, I think cashing in the stupid sign rule makes sense for business owners, perhaps we should theme it with "NEON" and old bulb type theater "CHASER LIGHTS" . Would that be cool or what?

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Hey! Where is OUR purple bridge?  

OCKLAWAHA

I love the bike lanes.  Considering it directly links DT with Springfield, Laura would be a great corridor for them. 

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Thanks Lake, in Colombia they all have different colors depending on the route. The bike lanes NEVER look like the sidewalk or the street colors. Also they seem to have a sort of rubberized? surface that looks something like a cross between a non-skid strip and swimming pool cool deck, I think we use it in Tennis Courts. Very nice, but it's a shame that Bogota has more miles of "cyclovias" or "Caril de bicicleta" then the whole state of Florida. But then Bogota isn't a small town either!

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OCKLAWAHA
Forever in the jungles of Colombia...

QuoteEver notice what happens to an enclosed mall when one of the anchors shut down?  Unless, its replaced with something, all the small shops on that wing tend to die out.  We can close streets, but the lack of a decent anchor on the north end to generate traffic at nights and on weekends would still be needed.  Even with MOCA Jax and the library staying open late in the evening, they don't have to pull to fill in small retail shops over a four block stretch.

Lake, what kind of anchor would you suggest we need?  Event oriented?  Retail?  Entertainment?  Food court?  Isn't the Snyder church on that end near Hemming?  Where else could you go unless you take City Hall and transform it again into something else?  I was thinking Hemming Plaza itself and the surrounding activity already there would be a source of interest and pedestrians.  Maybe a collaboration of activities could form the anchor equivalent.  Let's get some imaginative input!

QuoteI didn't say we don't have tourist.  I said we don't have anything on the level of what visits Key West.  History has proven that tourist don't visit because of pedestrian malls.  If attracting tourism is the goal, the city should be focusing more on beefing up its cultural attractions and promoting its history.

I am saying attracting tourists is just one more benefit in the mix, not necessarily the main one - that should be getting locals to patronize downtown regularly and in volume.  Your statement is a contradiction of earlier statements made pointing to tourists as the reason for the success of St. George Street when I cited it as a successful pedestrian mall example.  If the tourists aren't on St, George for the mall and its environs, then why are they there at all? To see the exteriors of a few historic buildings turned into little shops?  By the way, what is the anchor on St. George?  One end is a park/plaza, not unlike Hemming.  The other is a merger into A1A in front of the fort.  Nothing notably big on either end.  Which comes first, the mall or the tourists?  Why not seek the maximum audience, tourists AND locals?  It seems no matter which side I propel here, I am losing.

QuoteSidewalks and plants won't pull people off the waterfront.  You need a viable destination anchor to do this.  Spaces that shut down at 6pm and a multi block church don't qualify as viable main anchors.

I never left it at this.  I offered multiple enhancements to make the entire walk active.  You are relying on what is there presently, not what could be.  This is admitting defeat before even starting.  A master plan (now that's a new idea!) would insure that the necessary ingredients are present before moving forward.  The mall is the strategic goal.  Tactical decisions are endless and could be pursued in many ways.  I am not building it but, if asked, for a mutlimillon dollar consulting fee, I will be happy to assist. 8)

QuoteI'm not sold a pedestrian mall is first class.  While I would not advocate putting in a full blown highway, a well balanced corridor featuring transit, limited vehicular access and sidewalks can't be first class.

First class is in the eye of the beholder and is subject to the quality of EXECUTION.  What we have presently is certainly not first class to most even given wide latitude. Why are we being so pessimistic about the possibilities here?  Where is the creative thinking driven by achieving the goal?

QuoteAutomobile accessibility/visibility is just as important as pedestrian accessibility/visibility to retailers.  Instead of completely eliminating one from the mix, the better option would be to attempt strike a balance.  With that said, I think what the JEDC currently has planned for Laura Street is on the right path, for the most part.  After all, if you want to have a festival, you can always temporarily shut the entire street down.

Well, we have auto access now and where has that gotten things? Nowhere.

Lake, I think we should both be encouraging something within the range of yours and my concepts on Laura Street and drill into the details once it's in the City's sites.

Quote from: stjr on March 03, 2009, 12:27:18 AM
Lake, what kind of anchor would you suggest we need?  Event oriented?  Retail?  Entertainment?  Food court?  Isn't the Snyder church on that end near Hemming?  Where else could you go unless you take City Hall and transform it again into something else?  I was thinking Hemming Plaza itself and the surrounding activity already there would be a source of interest and pedestrians.  Maybe a collaboration of activities could form the anchor equivalent.  Let's get some imaginative input!

While the current office uses surrounding the park pull people in during weekdays, they all shut down at night and on weekends, which turn three sides of the park into dead zones outside of office hours.  If it were up to me, I'd attempt to cram the park's borders with a mix of cultural oriented uses.  Museums, concert halls, entertainment venues, etc. to compliment MOCA Jax and the library.  Hemming would then become a front door and central gathering spot for all of these venues.  Unfortunately, outside of the Snyder, there's only so much you can do with all of the office uses taking up the ground floor of most of the buildings.

Quote

QuoteI didn't say we don't have tourist.  I said we don't have anything on the level of what visits Key West.  History has proven that tourist don't visit because of pedestrian malls.  If attracting tourism is the goal, the city should be focusing more on beefing up its cultural attractions and promoting its history.

I am saying attracting tourists is just one more benefit in the mix, not necessarily the main one - that should be getting locals to patronize downtown regularly and in volume.  Your statement is a contradiction of earlier statements made pointing to tourists as the reason for the success of St. George Street when I cited it as a successful pedestrian mall example.  If the tourists aren't on St, George for the mall and its environs, then why are they there at all? To see the exteriors of a few historic buildings turned into little shops?

My statement was not a contradiction.  St. George Street does not work because its a pedestrian mall.  It works because there has always been a huge tourist element and density in the area.  The immediate lack of these two major factors are things that a pedestrian mall in downtown Jax would have to overcome.

The majority of tourist visit St. Augustine for the same reason they visit Charleston and Savannah.  Its the oldest city in the country and large number of historic buildings have been preserved.  People flock to this area to see history for themselves, not a pedestrian mall.

QuoteBy the way, what is the anchor on St. George?  One end is a park/plaza, not unlike Hemming.  The other is a merger into A1A in front of the fort.  Nothing notably big on either end.  Which comes first, the mall or the tourists?  Why not seek the maximum audience, tourists AND locals?  It seems no matter which side I propel here, I am losing.

In St. Augustine's case, the preservation and promotion of its history pull in the tourist, not the pedestrian mall.  Because its in the middle of a major tourist destination (over 2 million visitors a year), the main anchor is the tourist district itself.  To the north, there is the main visitor's center/garage, Uptown, Ripley's and the fort.  There are also historic attractions scattered in that area like the oldest schoolhouse and drugstore in America along with a large number of small hotels and motels.   On the south end, you have the Casa Monica hotel, Flagler College, the core of downtown in general and the Lightner Museum. 

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QuoteSidewalks and plants won't pull people off the waterfront.  You need a viable destination anchor to do this.  Spaces that shut down at 6pm and a multi block church don't qualify as viable main anchors.

I never left it at this.  I offered multiple enhancements to make the entire walk active.  You are relying on what is there presently, not what could be.  This is admitting defeat before even starting.  A master plan (now that's a new idea!) would insure that the necessary ingredients are present before moving forward.  The mall is the strategic goal.  Tactical decisions are endless and could be pursued in many ways.  I am not building it but, if asked, for a mutlimillon dollar consulting fee, I will be happy to assist. 8)

I'm not admitting defeat, I just don't think pedestrian malls are that great if forced in the wrong setting.

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QuoteI'm not sold a pedestrian mall is first class.  While I would not advocate putting in a full blown highway, a well balanced corridor featuring transit, limited vehicular access and sidewalks can't be first class.

First class is in the eye of the beholder and is subject to the quality of EXECUTION.  What we have presently is certainly not first class to most even given wide latitude. Why are we being so pessimistic about the possibilities here?  Where is the creative thinking driven by achieving the goal?

First class would be determined by the success of businesses operating in the area and the attraction of the area to customers and residents.  The creation of a pedestrian mall is no more creative than an nice outdoor atmosphere that finds a way to accommodate all modes of transit. 

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QuoteAutomobile accessibility/visibility is just as important as pedestrian accessibility/visibility to retailers.  Instead of completely eliminating one from the mix, the better option would be to attempt strike a balance.  With that said, I think what the JEDC currently has planned for Laura Street is on the right path, for the most part.  After all, if you want to have a festival, you can always temporarily shut the entire street down.

Well, we have auto access now and where has that gotten things? Nowhere.

We had pedestrian only access and it help put the final nail in the coffin for most major retail in downtown.  It also helped kill off retail in most cities across the country that tried it in the 70s/80s. Of course.   Anyway, I think we can agree that a toxic cloud currently exists over downtown.  Until the things that create that toxic cloud are removed, nothing will work long term.

QuoteLake, I think we should both be encouraging something within the range of yours and my concepts on Laura Street and drill into the details once it's in the City's sites.

Although, I not a fan of everything in the current Laura Street streetscape plan, it does include a lot of things we publicly pushed for back in 2006.  The city reads this site.  Keep suggesting things and eventually something will get picked up.

QuoteSt. George Street does not work because its a pedestrian mall.  It works because there has always been a huge tourist element and density in the area....The majority of tourist visit St. Augustine for the same reason they visit Charleston and Savannah.  Its the oldest city in the country and large number of historic buildings have been preserved.  People flock to this area to see history for themselves, not a pedestrian mall.

Lake, I remember St. George Street before it was a pedestrian mall.  The tourists and the history are constants and were always there, but visitors did not flock to St. George Street - until it was converted.  Compare the area today to what it was pre-mall and tell me the mall, being the only significant change, didn't turn the area into something far greater than it was.  St. George gave tourists a friendlier shopping environment encouraging tourists to stay longer and spend more money greatly enhancing the St. Augustine economy.  Ask anyone in St. Augustine today if they would tear up St. George and convert it back to an auto-accessible street with parallel parking.  The fort, Ripleys, the Fountain of Youth, Old Jail, Flagler, the Lightner - all have been there forever and St. George didn't benefit from these attractions like it did when it was converted.  I would further assert most, if not all of those attractions, are far enough away from St. George to have little or no direct impact on it from a pedestrian standpoint.  I would hardly call the Old School House or Drugstore major tourist attractions.  They are 10 second walkbys.

QuoteFirst class would be determined by the success of businesses operating in the area and the attraction of the area to customers and residents.  The creation of a pedestrian mall is no more creative than an nice outdoor atmosphere that finds a way to accommodate all modes of transit.

Using your definition of first class, we can't answer the question until the mall is established.  Creation of a pedestrian mall can be a creative process and probably needs to be, to be successful.  Creativity and imagination are major ingredients missing in everything Jax does.  It's time to start changing that and this would be a great showcase for bringing these elements to the forefront.  The engineers, architects, and city planners need to share their mantle with some artists, entertainers, marketers, merchandisers, chefs, musicians, actors, and other creative types to make this work.  Downtown Jax lacks whimsy, fun, color, surprise, interest, etc. that encourages visitors to stick around and see what else lurks around the next corner.  Maybe the Chamber and City Hall need to spend a week at the theme parks in Orlando for inspiration.  Or Mallory Square in Key West which, although devoid of anything notable save a poor view of the sunsets over an unattractive over-developed island, pulls in thousands daily to visit a parade of odd-ball street vendors and entertainers. ;D

QuoteWe had pedestrian only access and it help put the final nail in the coffin for most major retail in downtown.  It also helped kill off retail in most cities across the country that tried it in the 70s/80s.

I am not sure where in Jax you are referring to (the area around Hemming Plaza?) but wherever it was, it couldn't have been significant or well executed.  Major retail in downtown died because of suburban flight, lack of identifiable downtown parking and adequate and reliable public transit, excessive and lengthy construction of Hemming Plaza and the $ky-high-way, a lack of downtown residents, inconsistent planning, ever changing street flows, and failed adherence to a given master plan causing confusion and unreliable support, the decline of the corporate workforce downtown - not because of pedestrian only access.

As you concluded, let's hope City officials give half the thought you and I have in this discussion to what they finally execute.

Quote from: stjr on March 03, 2009, 02:12:51 AM
Lake, I remember St. George Street before it was a pedestrian mall.  The tourists and the history are constants and were always there, but visitors did not flock to St. George Street - until it was converted.

BINGO!  There is a reason this concept works in places like St. Augustine and South Beach, but fails in areas like Downtown Tampa and Raleigh.  I'm not arguing the merits of St. George Street.  What I'm trying to point out is that there are built in reasons St. George Street works and why doing the exact same thing in downtown Jax, without giving credibility to those reasons, will result in ultimate failure.  When discussing St. George Street, don't discredit the powerful impact of that environment already being a place that attracts 2 million walking visitors a year.  This is really an apples and oranges comparison, given the context of the two CBDs.

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QuoteFirst class would be determined by the success of businesses operating in the area and the attraction of the area to customers and residents.  The creation of a pedestrian mall is no more creative than an nice outdoor atmosphere that finds a way to accommodate all modes of transit.

Using your definition of first class, we can't answer the question until the mall is established.  Creation of a pedestrian mall can be a creative process and probably needs to be, to be successful.  Creativity and imagination are major ingredients missing in everything Jax does.  It's time to start changing that and this would be a great showcase for bringing these elements to the forefront.  The engineers, architects, and city planners need to share their mantle with some artists, entertainers, marketers, merchandisers, chefs, musicians, actors, and other creative types to make this work.  Downtown Jax lacks whimsy, fun, color, surprise, interest, etc. that encourages visitors to stick around and see what else lurks around the next corner.  Maybe the Chamber and City Hall need to spend a week at the theme parks in Orlando for inspiration.  Or Mallory Square in Key West which, although devoid of anything notable save a poor view of the sunsets over an unattractive over-developed island, pulls in thousands daily to visit a parade of odd-ball street vendors and entertainers. ;D

The best way to learn before spending big bucks is to look at the 220 examples of American pedestrian malls built since 1970.  There is a reason that only 30 ended up being successful.  By studying the environments they worked and failed in, we can know right off the bat if one would work on Laura Street.  If we really look at the surrounding environment, its easy to see we fit in the mold of the failure side.  Now if we can pull in some surrounding density and create a stronger tourist base, things may change.

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QuoteWe had pedestrian only access and it help put the final nail in the coffin for most major retail in downtown.  It also helped kill off retail in most cities across the country that tried it in the 70s/80s.

I am not sure where in Jax you are referring to (the area around Hemming Plaza?) but wherever it was, it couldn't have been significant or well executed.  Major retail in downtown died because of suburban flight, lack of identifiable downtown parking and adequate and reliable public transit, excessive and lengthy construction of Hemming Plaza and the $ky-high-way, a lack of downtown residents, inconsistent planning, ever changing street flows, and failed adherence to a given master plan causing confusion and unreliable support, the decline of the corporate workforce downtown - not because of pedestrian only access.

As you concluded, let's hope City officials give half the thought you and I have in this discussion to what they finally execute.

I hope all ideas floating around on Duval Street are thoroughly debated.  The more answers you can properly address in the concept stage, the more successful the final product will be.