QuoteThe U.S. Department of Transportation will allocate the $8 billion and will release guidelines on how to apply by June 17. Florida has already alerted the agency to its interest, Chira said.
Before it went into hibernation, the rail authority had been studying a line connecting Orlando to Tampa. A second phase would have connected Orlando to Miami.
On Thursday, Chira said the authority would focus getting stimulus money for that first phase, which has already gone through an environmental study and feasibility plan. Expansion north to cities like Jacksonville should only be a long-term goal.
full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-02-26/story/high_speed_rail_could_come_to_but_not_through_jacksonville
Hopefully, everone who reads this will post a reponse on the TU site regarding this story. There are some pretty negative responses from people, so we need some good reponses. Now go post!
AAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
__________________________________________________________
High speed rail could come to, but not through, Jacksonville
By Larry Hannan
Story updated at 2:22 AM on Friday, Feb. 27, 2009
ORLANDO â€" High-speed rail in Florida essentially died in 2004, when voters repealed a four-year-old constitutional amendment they’d approved to mandate its construction.
But with a $790 billion stimulus package that was approved last week by Congress â€" $8 billion of that for high-speed rail â€" it has risen from the dead.
The latest map from the U.S. Department of Transportation breaks potential high-speed rail lines into eleven different corridors. Florida’s goes from Tampa to Orlando and then Miami.
It doesn’t, however, make it north to Jacksonville.
U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Fla., said she is doing everything possible to make sure the 100- to 150-mph trains connect Jacksonville with the rest of the state.
Although DOT’s map links Jacksonville with a southeast corridor that includes Atlanta, Charlotte and Savannah, Brown anticipates a fight to make a connection with the rest of the state.
“It won’t be easy,†Brown conceded. “But I’m telling everyone that Jacksonville is the gateway to Florida, and the rail has to come through here.â€
The Florida High Speed Rail Authority, dormant since 2005, sprang back to life Thursday in Orlando. Chairman Lee Chira said the authority will need the approval of Gov. Charlie Crist, who has supported the stimulus but hasn’t commented specifically on high-speed rail.
Crist’s office did not return calls seeking comment.
The U.S. Department of Transportation will allocate the $8 billion and will release guidelines on how to apply by June 17. Florida has already alerted the agency to its interest, Chira said.
Before it went into hibernation, the rail authority had been studying a line connecting Orlando to Tampa. A second phase would have connected Orlando to Miami.
On Thursday, Chira said the authority would focus getting stimulus money for that first phase, which has already gone through an environmental study and feasibility plan. Expansion north to cities like Jacksonville should only be a long-term goal.
Brown said it’s possible to add a Jacksonville-to-Orlando route that joins the Florida corridor to the southeast corridor. She views existing CSX tracks as the best chance, although the tracks would have to be upgraded.
Michael Blaylock, executive director of the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, said the stimulus may be the ticket for both high-speed rail and commuter rail in Jacksonville. JTA wants $2.5 million from the stimulus to finish a study on commuter rail. It wants another $50 million to build a new regional transportation hub behind the Prime Osborn Convention Center.
From there, commuter rail would go from downtown to the suburbs. High-speed rail would connect areas all over the country and would include Amtrak, Blaylock said.
Brown said she has talked to Blaylock and will work to get the money.
larry.hannan@jacksonville.com
(904) 359-4470
QuoteJTA wants $2.5 million from the stimulus to finish a study on commuter rail. It wants another $50 million to build a new regional transportation hub behind the Prime Osborn Convention Center.
So much for moving the convention center downtown where the courthouse now sits...
The convention center won't move as long as the city keeps its head in the sand and JTA remains afraid to make a big deal out of this issue. We'll just end up with two inefficient complexes.
I don't see this as unreasonable.
It makes a tremendous amount of sense to try and establish a line connecting Miami Orlando and Tampa first. Jacksonville is the smallest metro of the four, and probably requires the longest number of miles of track upgrades.
Yeah, it would be nice for Jax to be in the first phase. But I'm not sure anyone can reasonably get too offended that they're targeting the closer and more populous areas first.
I agree Joe...and while an eventual connection to Atlanta would be nice, it doesn't make sense right now....we need to start thinking about mega-regions....these are the best places to connect w/ upgraded intercity rail....here's a good article about mega-regions
http://www.floridatrend.com/article.asp?aID=94705671.7268296.644449.7214088.135071.639&aID2=49564 (http://www.floridatrend.com/article.asp?aID=94705671.7268296.644449.7214088.135071.639&aID2=49564)
The Piedmont region includes Raleigh-Charlotte-Atlanta-Birmingham
Florida pretty much stands on its own as a region...and Jax is not really inetgrated w/ the rest of the peninsula....yet!
Jax as a final phase is not unreasonable. I think the larger issue is it even worth it to spend $2 billion for a HSR line between Tampa and Orlando. When its all said and done, I wonder what is the cost and time difference between HSR in the middle of I-4 and express commuter rail on existing tracks?
Actually, I get a little annoyed that there is so much focus on HSR at all.
Without viable mass transit within each metro region, HSR will be a useless little feel-good toy. I know I'm going to get crap for saything that, but I stand by the opinion. There won't be enough demand to drive from a disconnected auto-centric Jax suburb to take a train to a disconnected auto-centric Tampa suburb (where you have to rent a car anyway). It doesn't matter if it's a 100 mph HSR or a 50mph regular Amtrak train.
Conversely, with viable transit within each metro region, intercity rail can be viable. Then it would start making sense to spend so much money improving the speed.
QuoteJTA wants $2.5 million from the stimulus to finish a study on commuter rail. It wants another $50 million to build a new regional transportation hub behind the Prime Osborn Convention Center.
Can one of our consultant friends on this sight explain to me how it can cost $2.5 mil to do a study on commuter rail? Haven't these already been done? What exactly are we studying for that money? And why does it cost so much? I might be willing to do the research for a lot less. Let's see.... a few surveys, talk to the lobbyists and JTA politicos, talk to some contractors to get overly optimistic cost projections (don't want to scare anyone off), mix in some common sense (but, not too much, it might rock the boat!), add a few wild assumptions to make sure we don't bite any hands that feed us, lift some boiler plate wording from other studies to use as stuffing (we don't want to exert ourselves too much and those heavy books really impress), and wallah! If it's off 90%, no problem, no one will go back and look. A big fat book no one will read and paycheck to go with it.
I am all for this rail stuff but I don't think it takes a $2.5 million study to justify it. I bet I and others here could guess 90% of what it will conclude at no expense and which will be a lot more accurate than that last big study on the $ky-high-way or this one will likely be.And you wonder why I wax cynical about consultants. Help me out.
Joe, I don't really disagree with your position. My thing is that its a bad idea to sink that much money into a risky proposal before viable affordable alternatives (commuter rail, better Amtrak service, etc.) are thoroughly explored and implemented. Locally, it would be like building an elevated skyway twenty years ago when ground level light rail could have accomplished the same thing for half the cost. If it fails, you end up with another skyway/bad rail image situation on your hands (stjr should like that statement).
The first phase of the mentioned transportation center is at the current site of the Convention Center Skyway station, not behind the current convention center. The article seemed a little misleading. Everyone needs to realize that JTA is just completing a FEASIBILITY study for commuter rail. The feasibility study gets us to the point where we can request dollars for further study. The next phase of studies called Alternatives Analysis will start the process of recieving federal funds for any such regional rail systems. This is the first step in a very difficult journey in the federal process. Even, in states where these systems have been built with local/state funding studies and environmental documentation is a part of the process. These things dont just happen overnight and everyone is just going to have be patient. If this would have been started six years ago, we wouldnt be so behind and missing out on construction dollars! Now is the time for planners to be saying, "see this is why we need good planning!"
QuoteI might be willing to do the research for a lot less. Let's see.... a few surveys, talk to the lobbyists and JTA politicos, talk to some contractors to get overly optimistic cost projections (don't want to scare anyone off), mix in some common sense (but, not too much, it might rock the boat!), add a few wild assumptions to make sure we don't bite any hands that feed us, lift some boiler plate wording from other studies to use as stuffing (we don't want to exert ourselves too much and those heavy books really impress), and wallah! If it's off 90%, no problem, no one will go back and look. A big fat book no one will read and paycheck to go with it.
Only talking to "some contractors" and conducting "a few surveys" would be completely inadequate for a study involving a project of this magnitude.
Cline, the comments you quoted where intended to make a point while using some "tongue-in-cheek" humor! Looks like I hit a nerve. Lighten up.
However, no one has yet explained where the $2.5 million goes and what we get for that either. This is the real focus and what needs to be taken seriously. I am asking for enlightenment! Absent any, maybe my light hearted comments are too on-point.
QuoteHowever, no one has yet explained where the $2.5 million goes and what we get for that either.
You can check what is going into the feasibility study on JTA's website.
http://www.jtafla.com/RTS/showPage.aspx?Sel=74 (http://www.jtafla.com/RTS/showPage.aspx?Sel=74)
Like fsujax said, this is the first step in the process to obtain funds from the Feds.
Quote from: fsujax on February 27, 2009, 01:27:36 PM
Everyone needs to realize that JTA is just completing a FEASIBILITY study for commuter rail. The feasibility study gets us to the point where we can request dollars for further study. The next phase of studies called Alternatives Analysis will start the process of recieving federal funds for any such regional rail systems. This is the first step in a very difficult journey in the federal process. Even, in states where these systems have been built with local/state funding studies and environmental documentation is a part of the process. These things dont just happen overnight and everyone is just going to have be patient.
They certainly don't. This is why it will become increasingly important to prioritize certain corridors of the RTS, while still pursuing Federal dollars for a larger comprehensive system. With this in mind, it may be a better option to use available local funding as a part of an initial segment (perhaps streetcar or S-Line corridor). With local funding in hand and used for an initial segment, the time process between initial feasibility studies and breaking ground can be reduced by a couple of years. Doing such, would also set the community up for a better chance of securing federal funding for the rest of the system.
For those out there who are interested, here is a streetcar study in another community that includes development timelines of peer systmes studied.
http://www.fortworthgov.org/uploadedFiles/Planning_and_Development/Miscellaneous_(template)/Peer%20City%20Handout%20for%20distribution.pdf
For some systems that applied for federal dollars, it took them as much as 8 to 11 years to go from feasibility study to operation. On the other hand, the Tacoma Link took five years to go from identifying routes (typically done in the feasibility stage) to beginning operation. If applied to Jax, we could have a locally funded initial route running by 2013 or a federal funded route by 2017 or 2020 assuming a transit friendly administration is still in place by that time.
The study also shows that the SLUT went from concept to operation in four years with federal dollars. I'm going to have to look that up to see how they went through the process so quick.
QuoteIf this would have been started six years ago, we wouldnt be so behind and missing out on construction dollars! Now is the time for planners to be saying, "see this is why we need good planning!"
I agree. That's why its more important than ever to rally to save the BJP money from the mayor and to continue the push for rail, as JTA's top priority.
just to add-on, the next steps include an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for one or more of the corridors...these usually take about 36 months to complete and may include detailed alternatives analyses, investment-grade ridership studies, significant public involvement, and coordination with ALL local, state, and federal agencies.
For comparison purposes, the High Speed Rail EIS from Tampa to Orlando cost about $3 million...and that's with looking just at existing CSX track and the median of I-4.
Quote from: cline on February 27, 2009, 02:10:48 PM
QuoteHowever, no one has yet explained where the $2.5 million goes and what we get for that either.
You can check what is going into the feasibility study on JTA's website.
http://www.jtafla.com/RTS/showPage.aspx?Sel=74 (http://www.jtafla.com/RTS/showPage.aspx?Sel=74)
Like fsujax said, this is the first step in the process to obtain funds from the Feds.
I'd say obtaining federal funds should be a second priority (although both should occur at the same time). The first should be to aggressively fight to save local funding for transit and to use that funding for taking initial implementation baby steps even without the feds.
Quote from: fsujax on February 27, 2009, 01:27:36 PM
If this would have been started six years ago, we wouldnt be so behind and missing out on construction dollars! Now is the time for planners to be saying, "see this is why we need good planning!"
right you are....unfortunately, the decision 8 years ago was to pursue BRT instead of LRT or commuter rail....that has set us back quite a bit.
Geez....these FSU guys sure are smart :)
While it is true Seattle used some federal money (14.9%) to contruct their system, we have to be very clear as to what type of federal dollars were used. Seattle did not use FTA dollars, I believe they used dollars from some other federal program i.e. CMAQ, HUD. Just because an agency is usuing federal dollars, they might not always be Federal Transit Administration dollars, so we need to be clear on which type of federal dollars an agency is using. This can be become very confusing. It is hard to keep all of this seperated.
Thanks for the explanation. That would explain the quick start to finish process. While, its not the FTA process, the SLUT may be an example of how you can go from start to finish rapidly using an alternative method. I don't know if what they may have did is right for Jax, but I hope we don't lock ourselves into thinking the FTA process is the only way to go locally. If we keep an open mind and get creative with our thinking, we may be able to get something up and running (even if its small scale) quicker than originally anticipated.
Quote from: cline on February 27, 2009, 02:10:48 PM
QuoteHowever, no one has yet explained where the $2.5 million goes and what we get for that either.
You can check what is going into the feasibility study on JTA's website.
http://www.jtafla.com/RTS/showPage.aspx?Sel=74 (http://www.jtafla.com/RTS/showPage.aspx?Sel=74)
The info on the website cited above (excerpted content posted below) sure doesn't look like $2.5 million in work to me. In fact, it looks remarkably similar to my tongue-in-cheek post previously. I would bet Ock and Lake could fill out most of the info from their MetroJax posts. Much of the rest is rooted in common sense. The 2005, 2015, and 2030 projections will be mere guesses based on prior study accuracy. And, on much of this, there aren't that many options to consider. Most are pretty obvious. So, I remain unconvinced that this "study" is worth $2.5 million. Taxpayers should be concerned once again.Quote
Feasibility Study
Study Information
The continued and rapid growth in Baker, Clay, Duval, Flagler, Nassau, Putnam and St. Johns Counties challenges the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA) to provide efficient and convenient transportation throughout Northeast Florida. One of the primary goals of the JTA is to develop a multi-modal Regional Transportation System (RTS) that integrates various mobility options to handle the region's current and future transportation demands.
During the study the commuter rail project team will:
Identify the demand for commuter rail service for the years 2005, 2015 and 2030
Assess the region's commuter travel demand
Identify and evaluate preferred alignments and potential rail station sites
Provide capacity analysis of the existing rail system to accommodate commuter rail.
Examine the effect of commuter rail service on existing and planned rail freight operations and Amtrak service
Assess potential corridor options including existing highways and new corridors for commuter rail implementation and operation
Explore the possibilities of public-private partnerships to operate and maintain a commuter rail system.
The feasibility study is being conducted with the input and council from our regional partners that include the First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization (FCMPO), the Northeast Florida Regional Council (NEFRC) and the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT).
What is quoted is from the "Feasibility Study" - a high level review of whether Commuter Rail is feasible in this area. This is the study that was either recently completed, or is nearly complete. It narrowed a whole bunch of corridors down to (I think) three. As fsujax (or was it tufsu? or both?) pointed out earlier, the next study, the one that is necessary to grab FTA funding* and will involve detailed use of the transportation models; look at specific station locations and layouts, rather than the general ones looked at in the feasibility study;
detailed environmental studies (what is the impact of building a station at location "x"?, are any historical structures impacted? are there any contaminants in the soil where construction will occur, and so on); and more detailed operating plans; among other things. I'm sure there are some transportation consultants on here who could better explain what goes into such a study.
*leaving aside for the moment thelakelander's argument we should proceed without FTA; although if Jacksonville ever wants FTA money for Commuter Rail, JTA has to do the studies and such to Federal standards, or they may not be eligible for the money, or the local money they spend to implement a starter line may not qualify to match future Federal dollars if the Feds determine the studies leading to it were not up to Federal standards.
perfectly stated
Just to be clear, I never stated we should not conduct the steps necessary to qualify for FTA money on specific segments or corridors. Even with our own money, it would be foolish to start laying track without conducting a feasibility study, environmental assessments and engineering. However, we should be open and creative enough to seriously evaluate all types of funding solutions for specific segments of an overall mass transit master plan, as opposed to totally locking ourselves into what the Feds want.
In other words, if you have a master plan that calls for multiple modes and you have the money to move forward on a specific corridor (ex. lets say a streetcar line), don't hesitate to do it. In the meantime, while you move forward, there's nothing to stop you from pursuing federal funds for other corridors (ex. commuter rail, light rail, BRT, more streetcar, skyway or whatever...) that when combined, get us closer to that overall long range transit master plan.
In the end, there's too many successful alternative examples out there to lock ourselves into the path of one funding solution.
Interesting article and comments on high speed corridors from the Charlotte Observer:QuoteHow will $8 billion shape rail corridors?
By Steve Harrison
sharrison@charlotteobserver.com
Posted: Sunday, Mar. 08, 2009
There isn't enough money in President Obama's stimulus to transform our highways or mass transit.
But there is one area of transportation where stimulus money can change how we get around: high-speed rail.
The stimulus has $8 billion for faster trains â€" a dramatic increase over existing funding, which, in the past, has dripped out, like water from a leaky faucet.
Now advocates and skeptics of investing in passenger rail are wondering how the federal government will divvy up the bounty. Will two or three projects get the money? Or will it be spread around the country?
It would arguably be more stimulative to spread the money around. More contractors get work, in more parts of the country.
But some rail advocates say they think the federal government should channel the money into only two or three projects. They argue that a model high-speed corridor should be built, capture market share from airlines and then be used as a shining example for the rest of the country.
“If at the end of the day, all we have done is make it five minutes faster to go from Chicago to Springfield â€" big deal,†said David Carol, a project manager for the Charlotte Area Transit System who supports high-speed rail and doesn't want the money to be frittered away.
So who is eligible for the $8billion? And who should get the cash?
The federal government has designated 10 high-speed rail corridors nationwide, and some are better candidates for fast trains than others.
Some experts are pushing for a massive investment in the New York-Washington, D.C., route, Amtrak's most successful. Chicago is also considered a good candidate, with routes to St. Louis, Minneapolis, Louisville, Detroit and Cleveland. (Handicappers believe Chicago is a good bet for funding, in part because Obama and his transportation secretary Ray LaHood both hail from Illinois.)
The N.C. Department of Transportation is confident it will get some money for the Southeast High-Speed Rail Corridor, from Washington, D.C., to Charlotte. The state DOT says it can reduce travel time from Charlotte to Raleigh by an hour, to 2 hours and 15 minutes, by straightening curves and double-tracking the route.
Much of the engineering work for the southeast corridor is finished, and there are some “shovel-ready†improvements that could begin quickly.
On the other hand, some corridors are head-scratchers.
Exhibit A: the South-Central High-Speed Corridor, which includes planned high-speed service between Dallas-Fort Worth and Little Rock, Ark., via Texarkana. But it doesn't include high-speed trains between Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston, whose metro areas combined have nearly 12 million people.
At one time, Texas planned to build high-speed trains between the two metro areas, but Southwest Airlines lobbied against the train, helping kill that project. Southwest has 29 daily flights between Houston and Dallas, it should be noted.
There is also the Gulf Coast High-Speed Corridor, linking New Orleans with Houston; Mobile, Ala.; Birmingham, Ala.; and Atlanta. This was designated a high-speed corridor in 1998, seven years before Hurricane Katrina. But even before the storm decimated New Orleans' population, the small city was struggling economically. Was it a good candidate for high-speed rail?
Our own Southeast High-Speed Corridor also includes plans for Jacksonville-Atlanta and Raleigh-Columbia-Savannah-Jacksonville. Those lines are only conceptual now. Will they ever make sense to build?
Carol and other transportation experts quoted by The Observer in past stories believe that a high-speed train must be competitive with air travel.
It doesn't have to be faster, but if a door-to-door airplane trip takes 3 hours, the same trip by train shouldn't take more than 2 hours and 30 minutes. Any longer, and the benefits of the train â€" less hassle, more time to work â€" are outweighed by the length of the trip.
Charlotte to Raleigh by high-speed train would take 2 hours and 15 minutes. If the state created an express train that eliminated stops in Kannapolis, Salisbury, High Point, Burlington, Durham and Cary, that would save 25 minutes. Pat Simmons, head of the N.C. Department of Transportation's rail division, said the state could continue to improve the line, making small improvements to further shorten the trip.
But the trip from Raleigh to Washington, D.C., would take 3 hours and 55 minutes, or a little over four hours when door-to-door time is included. By plane the door-to-door trip takes 2 hours and 30 minutes. Would that Raleigh-Washington train appeal to business passengers?
The same goes for a planned Chicago-Minneapolis train that would take 5 hours and 52 minutes. The trip by plane would take three hours, tops.
Pat Simmons, head of the state DOT's rail division, said a successful train doesn't have to compete directly with airlines. He believes people will want to take the train for the ease and comfort.
“We don't have to be faster than airplanes,†Simmons said. “We need to have good service frequency, and we need to be reliable.â€
Obama pushed for the $8 billion for high-speed rail to be included in his stimulus, and his spending bill has another $5billion over five years for faster trains. Will that investment be successful enough to get more money from the next administration in 2012 or 2016?
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/244/story/583608.html
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zsmmdZKBelM/SJtS93dWLwI/AAAAAAAAA0s/9We2bl1uCRs/s400/Empire+Builder+and+mountains.jpg)
In my never-to-be-quiet opinion the whole "High Speed Rail" thing is a RED HERRING!
Certainly a Japanese or French style 350 Mile per hour train would be nice to have, but except for a very few corridors it's almost as big a waste of time and resources as a new 10 lane interstate! (YES Y'ALL HEARD ME SAY THAT!_)
The whole premise of High Speed Rail in the USA is so fraught with error and lack of rail knowledge that we almost sound like aborigines describing the Space Shuttle.
For example, in the above article the State of North Carolina has figured out that cutting out the smaller cities will allow for faster (and we are to suppose) more successful trains. BULL SHIT!
In another example the train must match or beat the air speed and airline time. BULL SHIT!
In Florida we are planning High Speed Rail with stops 10 miles apart... let's see will we run off that track at 110 or 150? BULL SHIT!
In Texas an airline shot down the whole project until the Obama Boy's kicked it back to life, now all those thousands that fly southwest are to be expected to change over night to a new form of travel? BULL SHIT!
In The Gulf Coast Corridor, there is all kinds of density strung from Houston to Pensacola, in fact a pretty good argument could be made for San Antonio to Mobile-Pensacola or Mobile-Motgomery-Birmingham. But some highly placed god of transport thinks the towns are too small. BULL SHIT!
So why do we want to reinvent the wheel?
So what if we do reinvent the wheel and go ahead with these plans? North Carolina is going to soon discover that blowing past small towns isn't what makes rail travel unique, airplanes - NOT TRAINS blow over the small burgs. In fact ridership numbers often are better in small and medium size cities that might not have the other transportation choices. Witness the excellent performance of Amtraks "Empire Builder" from Chicago - Seattle. With the exception of the Chicago-Twin Cities segment, this train travels through over a thousand miles of NOTHING! Just take a look at this list of winning cities:
TWIN CITIES STATION.... MILE #418
St. Cloud, MN
Staples, MN
Detroit Lakes, MN
Fargo, ND
Grand Forks, ND
Devils Lake, ND-------------Between Here and...
Rugby, ND--------------
Minot, ND--------------
Stanley, ND------------
Williston, ND----------------Here..131,006 Passengers per year board Amtrak or about 2.5x Jacksonville's numbers
Wolf Point, MT
Glasgow, MT
Malta, MT
Havre, MT
Shelby, MT
Cut Bank, MT
Browning, MT
Glacier Park, MT
Belton, MT
Whitefish, MT
Libby, MT
Sandpoint, ID
Spokane, WA
Pasco, WA
Yakima, WA
Ellensburg, WA
East Auburn, WA
SEATTLE.................MILE #2281QuoteAmtrak passengers arrived Friday at Midway Station in St. Paul. Ridership on the Empire Builder, which takes riders to the West Coast, continues to climb. The Empire Builder is Amtrak’s most popular long-distance route. Boardings at Midway Station in St. Paul have topped 147,000 this year, compared with about 133,000 last year. Top: Tom Cadreau, a conductor on the Empire Builder.
Give me the two crummy Amtrak offerings to Florida today and allow me to move them back downtown and to add nice small stations at Yukon/Orange Park, and Green Cove Springs and watch our Jacksonville MSA boardings double or triple!
Amtrak has already proved that on a 0-500 mile stage it can whip air with conventional trains at 79 MPH. When an airplane can stop at South Jacksonville, St. Augustine, Bunnell, Ormond Beach, Daytona Beach...etc... and still get to Miami within 7 hours, I'll fly. I just happen to enjoy SEEING WHERE IM GOING, and no way, no how, no where, do you see America with it's pants down like you can on a train!
How does Florida think it will run 150 mile per hour trains when the line includes such bonehead schemes as going from OIA to International Drive and Universal, then to Disney, then... This is just silly wish think. You want to fly, then go to the AIRPORT!
Texas Dallas - Ft. Worth corridor is another whole bucket of worms for the entire national HSR groupies to swallow. A population that hasn't had a single train since 1968, is not going to rush to the depot and board the bullet for Dallas. It might help to commit some money to conventional trains, then GROW the corridors into higher speeds in steps. BTW, the Houston Am-shack is an abomination, about 1/4 the size of ours and all the charm of a deserted bomb bunker in Roswell NM. You really think your going to attract the Intercontinental and Hobby crew over to this dump with a shinny new toy?
The Gulf Coast ran a VERY SUCCESSFUL test a few years back before the Sunset came on line. It ran from Mobile to New Orleans in the daylight hours and they discovered it was packed... that is until some Conservative "freeways are good - rail is bad" Governor came to power in Mississippi and they pulled the plug on their part of the funding - killing the fragile Amtrak/State finances. Give these swinging folks a train every 4 hours, 24/7, at 79 MPH and to hell with high speed rail, they'll flood it with passengers.
Remember with rail beyond 90 the costs rise sharply in a steep upward curve, while the time-saved per route segment hardly moves. Ever see the math on a guy driving 90 and one driving 120? They'll arrive 100 miles away, very close to the same time, and the railroad built for 90 may cost 1/2 as much as the 120 mile per hour line.
Conventional trains, on up graded (read copy the FEC RY) tracks, from here to NY, TAMPA, MIAMI, NEW ORLEANS, etc... 79 MPH with a target speed of 90.
Add 5 trains each way per day including an overnight late departure - EARLY arrival JAX-MIAMI, TAMPA - JAX.
All trains get new Vewliner or Superliner cars of the newest type, but with FLORIDA funds the LOUNGE and Dining cars are to be MARKET UNIQUE, including china and menus.
Work with STATE DOT to fence and overpass every last mile of railroad mainline in the state, with a goal of ZERO road crossings.
Give me 20 years, and you'll have HSR and it won't cost you 8 BILLION dollars.
So how would this work? MN get's it... QuoteProponents of the service say the popularity of Amtrak's Empire Builder -- now on a sixth consecutive year of ridership growth -- builds a case for trains that can move people even faster.
"They're finding every time they add service it fills up," said Jim McDonough, a Ramsey County commissioner and chair of the county's Regional Rail Authority. "People will use it if it can be on time and efficient."
Rep. Frank Hornstein, DFL-Minneapolis, said the upswing on Amtrak shows a "rising awareness" of the importance of rail. "Even with the skeletal budget Amtrak has, their ridership is spiking," he said.
OCKLAWAHA
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2. Enter the amount of real or proposed transit capital investment in millions of dollars:
3. Enter the amount of real or proposed transit operating expenditure in millions of dollars:
Benefits to Business of Public Transportation Investments
Transit investments result in a gain in sales for businesses of $3 for every $1 in capital invested and $3.20 for every $1 in operations expenditures.
4. Enter the amount of real or proposed transit capital investment:
5. Enter the amount of real or proposed transit operations investment:
Energy Saving
Use this calculator to determine the energy savings on transit vs. auto use. When you enter passenger miles of transit use, the total number of gallons of gas saved will be generated.
6. Enter the amount of real or proposed number of passenger miles of transit service:
CALCULATE THE BENEFITS.