The Peyton Administration has decided to finally move forward in reaction to the increasing number of the homeless and jobless people in the downtown area.
In conversation last week, officials revealed that several very proactive projects are being mulled to alleviate the rising tensions between the downtown merchants and businesses and the social service community.
Some very positive changes (at last) are about to be made.
What kind of solutions would readers of the forum like to see?
We should send them to Mexico. ;D
I actually heard someone say we should send all of our homeless to Mexico in exchange for all the illegal immigrants we have here.
Quote from: TPC on February 17, 2009, 05:14:23 PM
We should send them to Mexico. ;D
I actually heard someone say we should send all of our homeless to Mexico in exchange for all the illegal immigrants we have here.
Well if they are willing to do it would probably be a plus for us
Here's a novel idea. Instead of clustering all the homeless services downtown, build a complex in the outer suburbs for all the non-profits and move all the homeless there. If these people are homeless, then where they "reside" is irrelevant. Land costs are lower in the burbs and the money that is generated from the sale of the prime real estate downtown and the resulting increase in tax revenue can be used to fund the project. Relocating the indigent to an area where they can't go anywhere (nothing close in walking distance & no public trans) also has the added benefit of separating them from distractions (i.e. begging for money instead of trying to improve their skills, alcohol, drugs). While they are essentially captive, there's nothing left to do but train them in job skills if they're able and get them the appropriate help if they are mentally ill.
ENFORCE THE LAW! All one hears from the Peyton camp is the bleating refrain "homelessness is not a crime". Disregarding the fact that a great number of the transients that infest Hemming Plaza are not actually homeless, let's examine what is a crime: it is a crime to trespass; It is a crime to sleep on public space; it is a crime to urinate or defecate in public; it is a crime to panhandle or harass the citizenry; it is a crime to be publicly inebriated or to disturb the peace. If the JSO were to actually enforce these laws, the problem would effectively be solved. The JSO doesn't want to enforce these laws as the claim to be too busy fighting 'serious' crime, and anyway there is no room in the jail. To this I respond that they will be amazed to find how many of the people arrested for lifestyle crimes have outstanding felony warrants, and that once they start making these arrests, the commission of these offences will plummet, making the jail space a non-issue.
Manhattan used to be lousy with threatening, irritating street people. Giuliani rendered them invisible within a few months in 1994. That should be Peyton's model for municipal governance.
I like the spread them out idea.
let 'em work, let 'em live
Spreading out is a much better alternative to what we currently have. The problem is NIMBY. Just like we complain that we don't want them downtown, neither will people want them in Baymeadows, Ortega, or Mandarin.
When I said outer suburb, I meant way outer suburb, like a farm where they grow organic vegetables or something.
Let's be clear though, a good part of the homeless and other indigents around downtown are bums. They either don't want to work or be a productive contributing member of society.
Jaxtrader is right about applying the law. If NYC can clean up, we can too.
So how do you guys feel about the proposed homeless housing over on Davis and 3rd?
If it were up to me, I'd prefer additional housing be in an obsolete warehouse district, like the area south of Dennis Street/north of Mccoys Creek. Centralized, yet buffered from nearby residential districts.
Some sites that can add to the discussion...
http://wanderingvets.com/ ...Lots of definitions, ideas
http://hpn.asu.edu/archives/2002-July/006399.html ... interesting private sector solution.
The "enforce the law" idea, sadly, will not work. I'm a former prosecutor in town. When we would get the homeless guys coming through first appearance court for panhandling or public intox, it was always adjudicate them guilty and time served. Sometimes the Judge would give them 30 days. Big deal, now we all just pay for that guy for a month. A lot of these guys had well over 85 convictions, all for homeless-style crimes and the received a sentence of like 3 days on average for each of them. Once they get out, they are still homeless and will go right back to it. In the absence of their truly doing something unruly, to arrest them simply takes up the officer's time that could be better spent patrolling for some of the thugs doing the real crime in town. On top of that, it adds another body to the woefully overcrowded PDF and another body in J-1 the next morning. All to convict the guy for the 73rd time and send him on his way. If we lock them up for 6 months, then the taxpayers pay room and board and they get crammed into our overcrowded jail system. Lastly, arrest is no deterrent to them because to get taken to jail means a roof over their head and a hot meal. I'm all for law and order and wish that enforcing the law would work, but in this context it is no help whatsoever.
I was a police officer in Baltimore for a couple of years and dealt with the homeless population with some frequency. As mentioned before, looking to the police and courts to solve the homeless issue(s) is both a waste of resources and time. While there have always been bums and hobos, the homeless population exploded on the east coast in the mid to late 80s when the state hospitals that had previously provided mental care for the destitute started closing. If these facilities were re-opened, there would be a place where people with real mental issues could be held and treated until such a time that they were well enough to rejoin society in a more productive manner.
And, yes I'm aware that those hospitals had real issues, but I have to imagine that in the long run they beat living on trash and sleeping on steam grates.
I like the warehouse idea, God knows there's plenty of abandoned buildings that could be renovated for this purpose. But still, is there a strong likelihood that even if we did this that they would just eventually wander back to Hemming like someone already mentioned?
As a side note, why do I get the feeling that if our entire population of homeless people living downtown somehow suddenly migrated into Ponte Vedre or the Town Center that the city would immediately jump into action to have them relocated? Yet its tolerated in the city.
How about the FEMA Concentration Camps? j/k
QuoteThe "enforce the law" idea, sadly, will not work.
Really? It seems to be working for Orlando. I think the current solution of making them feel as welcome as possible, whether that is downtown, or in some other corner of town is not the answer.
I really hate to be cruel, but if they need treatment they are not likely to seek it when they are being enabled by an entire city. I've been to San Francisco and they have a pretty liberal policy there too. They also have bums sleeping and begging on every corner. It's all about what you want to deal with.
I think we need to get back to some founding principles.
http://www.founding.com/founders_library/pageID.2146/default.asp (http://www.founding.com/founders_library/pageID.2146/default.asp)
QuoteI think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.
I have to agree with jtw, we are so easy on our homeless in Jax and they just keep coming to this city and hanging out. That's the population in Jax growing the fastest probably. Check out the new pocket park in front of the library. I knew it would be wasted money and stated as much prior to it being built (as did many others here), not sure how our incompetent planners could not foresee that coming. If you can't enforce the law, then don't build stuff like that. As for it being police, tax payers & the judges problem, I don't agree with that either, but until there is a fix, it's a burden we must all accept. If locking them up for a night does nothing else, at least it can get them a shower and possibly much needed medical attention (I assume that and de-lousing is something done after they are booked?).
Enforcement worked in New York, and worked quickly. Before we throw our hands up in despair, we should at least attempt to apply the tactics that the Giuliani administration employed with such success.
Well, pulling them for the night isn't only for a delouse & a shave. I think identifying is important as well. There are bound to be many of these homeless people out there that are currently wanted for various crimes.
Also, that $750 is dwarfed by all of the money spent on a pocket park that houses 6 homeless people at any given time.
If one takes the park's cost of $700,000, divide by six transients...amortized over the 30 year life of the park before it needs major renovation...you'll find its actually quite cost-effective!! :)
Though I know you are joking...
That doesn't factor in the loss of tax revenue and amount of people that continue to drive instead of stopping and spending $ in the core.
The 6 bums in that park at any given time sipping their beer and throwing trash on the ground is more effective than a billboard. Unfortunately, the message is - Keep Driving, spend your $ elsewhere!
Think day center....in fact, didn't they sort of do that for the super bowl? Yep, a glorified day care for the homeless. In a day center, the homeless could get showered, new (used donated) clothes and also get "identified", though the ones the JSO would want the most would soon learn to not go to the day center, and perhaps figure out a way to stop being homeless. And I bet it could be done for less than $ 20.00 per day per person "serviced". So, how many people could have been helped with that 700K used for the park?
Quote from: jaxtrader on February 19, 2009, 01:55:11 PM
If one takes the park's cost of $700,000, divide by six transients...amortized over the 30 year life of the park before it needs major renovation...you'll find its actually quite cost-effective!! :)
and how exactly woul you would propose to FDOT that $700,000 in transportation enhancement funds be spent on the homeless?
Been in J-1 many times. Once, this homeless guy just flat out asked the judge to put him up. I think it was the "let 'em go" one. The judge told the homeless guy the court could not just keep housing him.
Tough problem, and an expensive one. While my Christian faith tells me that I must minister to the wretched and homeless, and give charity....my experience with our homeless minions is one of facing drug addicted, drunken, slovenly, filthy, lazy, and sometime criminals who accept only that which enables them to continue on their chosen hazy, stumble through life choices. While I realize that there are folks who temporarily slide into homelessness and need our help, clearly we need new rules and standards which can be enforced nationally. There, I have pointed out the obvious problem, now one of you really smart people give us the answer.
I certainly don't have the answer and just wanted to say that I'm in total agreement with what you said. As a Christian, I have the personal conflict between wanting to help and finding the majority of those who wander the streets, disgusting and not of higher moral fortitude. I will (and have) help those and believe in helping those who have fallen into hard times, those who have given their all, and simply were outweighed by circumstances....those are the ones worth supporting the various programs and shelters for...the ones that want to better their situations and honestly need/want help.
I have also found that over the years, my level of empathy for those who opt to part take in criminal activities, abuse drugs and made the choice to remain on the streets...has dwindled to zero tolerance. I also believe that something more needs to be done about these individuals, be haven't the answer as to what.
I'm not an expert on the Christian faith, but doesn't it teach that we should cotinue to help and guide those who may not have the highest moral fortitude....did Jesus give up on anyone?
Well given the fact that I'm not Christ and never, ever claimed to be as righteous as He....and I did say that I have a conflict with what I'm taught as a Christian and what I've discovered about many of these persons. As a Christian, we should also forgive....and I cannot find it within myself to forgive those who have committed certain crimes. That's something I'll have to answer for when I meet my maker.
Yes the Christian beliefs say that...and no, Jesus didn't give up....guess that's what made Him the son of God and me...well, I just happen to be a human with less than perfect attributes. The Bible also tells us that "God helps those who help themselves" and yet many of these persons refuse to do that...so where does that leave us?
I think if you get up each day and expect God to do amazing things in your life you would be amazed. I encourage you to do your best and make a commitment to each one of those homeless.
So I should make a commitment to each of the homeless? That's ridiculous, at best. I have and will continue to support various sources that do provide help, and I would hope that those that truly need the help, get it. At some point, these people need to make an effort on their own behalf.
I pray for patience and understanding, and the Lord sees fit to provide me with some wonderful examples, but I must admit that I often don't measure up to the Christian principles as I want to. Although I am not angered, I know that I have a large well of disappointment in many of those that I come into contact with. The waste of the gift of life just staggers me at times. Although I would never claim to know the mind of God, I struggle to balance between Christian charity and requiring each man to bear his share of responsibility for our society.
You nailed it, NotNow....and once again, you've voiced pretty much how I too, feel
I am sorry you both struggle with christian values. My commitment to them is that I don't judge them. Once I get a job, I want to begin giving to my church again so that my work can go to do God's work. In Jesus' name.
No need to feel sorry for me....it's but a tiny fraction of the totality of my faith.
I know the bible is full of malarkey that has been passed down through generations; however, there are a couple of things I do know to be true. First, Jesus Christ was a man who walked on this earth and died for my sins. He taught me to love my God above all else, love myself and love my neighbor. That in this world we live in today, to many people forget that. I'm not judging, I'm just saying that if people lived a more christian life then perhaps those less fortunate then us could live with a life that has just a little bit more dignity. Again, this isn't directed at anyone, I'm just saying I feel we all fall short in the "love thy neighbor" department.
A part of my love toward each homeless person stems from knowing that I once was almost like them.
You can love they neighbor, but that doesn't mean you have to like them. You can love their soul, but not the person they are.
You must be not liking more and more people at an alarming rate these days. Typically a disproportionate of the homeless are veterans, kids having been on the street since their teens, and the mentally ill, alcoholics, and drug abusers. But now people whose home are foreclosed, or their land lord's rental unit being foreclosed are hitting the streets. Either, they have no family, or don't want to burden them, or their families are struggling and cannot take them in. You don't know their situation. Not giving them the benefit of the doubt is not love in my book. And if it's not love it's hate. It's black and white like that.
Toronto's report on Streets to Homes Program:
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2009/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-18574.pdf (http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2009/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-18574.pdf)
Quote from: gatorback on February 23, 2009, 07:17:14 AM
Not giving them the benefit of the doubt is not love in my book. And if it's not love it's hate. It's black and white like that.
you know, I don't really love Jacksonville, but I surely don't hate it, no in between there gatorback? sounds like extremism to me.... "love it or leave it", "skate or die" etc.. where does ambivalence fit in for the laid back, non-type A slacker types?
Thanks for the post JoeMerchant. A local TV station in Houston, had this program on this past Saturday. Does Jacksonville have something like this? Feel free to make a direct donation. I salute this guy for doing something to help our service veterans.
http://www.usvetsinc.org/locations/location.asp?id=7
Clearly you're not the one judging the homeless. By the way. I've met you before. I could never forget that roundy baldy monkey head of yours. ;)
New York City has not FIXED their homeless problem as many are stating. *shaking head*.....There really is no way to get rid of these people. Fear/insecurity is what keeps people away from the homeless people. Man its like whatever for me. Ill buy something right in front of a homeless dude, they ask me for money, the answer is....NO...and I am on my way as if they were never there and I was never there. Maybe I am just used to them....like tall buildings, busy streets, business people to and from work, bums seem to be things I expect to see when I am in downtown of any city. I definitely do not agree with jailing them. What is the real problem with bums? You feel like you are so great you do not deserve to be bothered? In the day of telemarketing calls and spam email, everyone is so high and mighty no one can bother them? I have news for you people, you will be bothered, learn to deal with life and stop sheltering yourself. If such and such has a great pizza joint downtown near Hemming Plaza I will go there, buy pizza and go outside and eat it in Hemming Plaza. If you want downtown to be great, support downtown, don't avoid it because you think the dirty little bum will approach you. How are we working people with our hard earned money letting homeless people decide where we spend our money? Punk ass Johnny Boy is not worried about bums in Hemming Plaza, dude's term is almost over. How do we fix the bum problem? WE DON'T, we just support what we feel needs the support. If you want downtown to be great, visit it, support it, participate and keep it moving. Jacksonville is a CITY after all.
You make such a good point, Coolyfett. I mean dodging the bumming-for-a-buck is hardly different than getting that pesky phone call from a telemarketer when I am in my jammies watching NCIS. It is invasive, but it is part of life.
Actually, bumming for a buck is probably a much more honest approach.
Quote from: gatorback on February 23, 2009, 07:17:14 AM
You must be not liking more and more people at an alarming rate these days. Typically a disproportionate of the homeless are veterans, kids having been on the street since their teens, and the mentally ill, alcoholics, and drug abusers. But now people whose home are foreclosed, or their land lord's rental unit being foreclosed are hitting the streets. Either, they have no family, or don't want to burden them, or their families are struggling and cannot take them in. You don't know their situation. Not giving them the benefit of the doubt is not love in my book. And if it's not love it's hate. It's black and white like that.
You don't know me and haven't a clue as to how I feel...so don't presume to know how I feel. I never said that there's a large number of people I don't like....so don't put words into my mouth....I said I don't feel empathy for those who choose to live the life on the streets as criminals and/or drug abusers. I also said that I have helped and would continue to help those that truly need it...the ones that have fallen on hard times through circumstances beyond their control.
I said that you can love ones soul but not the person they are...how you construed that into hate, is beyond me. You're trying to make it seem like I flat out said I hate the homeless....and that's completely wrong. Again, don't presume to know how I feel or what action I've taken (and continue) to help. And it really isn't as black and white as you'd like to think....simply for the fact that there's many, many factors that contribute to the situation and the problem.
It's not really important, but somebody did say how you felt a on page 3 toward the middle. I was just going with what they said. Regardless, I find it inspiring finding how others personally help those in the situation that others have no empathy for. What if everybody felt that way. I look at drug addiction and alcohol addiction as a disease. I don't hate the person I hate the disease. And getting these people clean is more important then just letting them go. This is just my opinion.
Quote from: gatorback on February 23, 2009, 08:16:02 PM
It's not really important, but somebody did say how you felt a on page 3 toward the middle. I was just going with what they said. Regardless, I find it inspiring finding how others personally help those in the situation that others have no empathy for. What if everybody felt that way. I look at drug addiction and alcohol addiction as a disease. I don't hate the person I hate the disease. And getting these people clean is more important then just letting them go. This is just my opinion.
I wonder if its time to reconsider state mental hospitals? Quite a few of the homeless have mental problems, bipolar, shcispohrenic, mentally handicapped. Individuals that cant take care of themselves. I know why the mental wards were disbanded in the late 60's early 70's, horrible care, warehouses for people that didn't care. but couldn't this be changed? True mental hospitals that take care of those who cant take care of themselve, i dont mean the alcoholics or tweekers but truly those who are mentally unable to care for themselve. I think this transcendes party affiliation and reaches out to the state taking care of those who literally cant take care of themselves. I know I wouldn't object to my taxes taking care of these people
That's the thing...many of those on the streets and who have died on the streets, were and are those who suffer from mental illness. When the federal government closed most of those facilities down, they opened the flood gates, and dumped these people onto the streets. Many are treatable, but for various reasons, don't have or continue to take the medication needed. These people fall through the cracks and generally are left to fend for themselves, which is sad.
QuoteKerri Stewart, the city of Jacksonville’s deputy chief administrative officer, says the city cut the electricity to Hemming Plaza (except for special events) after complaints that the homeless people who gather there daily were using the electricity to charge cell phones, plug in hair-clippers and even heat irons to press clothes.
Page 9: http://www.folioweekly.com/documents/Coverstory021709.pdf
Now THERE is a solution... of course now I have to find someone else to cut my hair... :)
There are a few outlets in the Riverside Avondale area. Perhaps he or she could set up shop there. Some the pocket parks even have city water. Maybe you could even get a shampoo with your cut. Try the pocket park at Avondale and Challen.
I found it interesting that when I attended the graduation at the City Rescue Mission, they spent quite a bit of the ceremony preaching against enabling the homeless, begging, drug addicts and panhandlers. To the point that I bet if you were to take what they were saying out of the context of the setting you would say that they hate and despised these people. However their organization helps numerous people get their lives back on track, off drugs, help for mental illness, high school diplomas and work. However in order to get that help you have to be willing to work for it. The graduates would talk about how their own families would enable them by not pushing them to get help for drugs or mental health when they needed it until they had destroyed every relationship they had. Then they would be enabled by stealing and begging and handouts from family.
I would urge anyone to attend one of their graduations. It's very moving and it may change your mind from thinking that people are just helpless, to thinking that some people are unwilling to help themselves.
Thanks for that. I really solute those at City Rescue Mission. Sounds like they really have empathy for all. There's a difference between empathy and sympathy. Empathy means respecting the other person and assisting them to find their own solutions (with advice or help to develop new skills) not dictating actions nor offering solutions our own solutions as the listener. Empathy is recognizing and supporting people to control their own lives, helping them to make informed choices. Not taking control, nor giving too much 'professional advice' but offering options, ways to gain new skills, IF they decide to.
In sympathy you over identify with their emotions, but their experience is not your experience, their reality is not your reality. Nobody can actually WALK in another's shoes, we can only SEE the world from their shoes. To sympathize can be very oppressive and discriminatory. To pretend we can walk in another's shoes IS very oppressive and discriminatory.
Sympathy is an emotional response. Empathy is a learned skill.
As Christians we are all called to help these people--not turn our back on them. I'm sorry if I challenge your Christianity. Today is Fat Tuesday and tomorrow is Ash Wednesday. If you have judged those homeless, perhaps you could repent tomorrow for your sins. It's the day for it after all. I'm sure you'll be rewarded.
"As Christians we are all called to help these people--not turn our back on them. I'm sorry if I challenge your Christianity."
Wow, how pious of you to assume everyone is a Christian. Way to show your open mindedness.
Sorry SD, sometimes I get bored with the pages & pages of self-righteousness and skip to the end. I went back and read all of it.
I'm not getting the Folio article to open so I may be speaking out of turn but shouldn't "using the electricity to charge cell phones, plug in hair-clippers and even heat irons to press clothes" be an indicator of those actually trying to find a job? Or do they just want to look their best while sleeping on a bench? These are the people that need a day center to provide training and access to online job searches and an address for mail so they can get an ID, etc, etc. And I agree with not centralizing all the services in one place. That's the build it and they will come (and congregate and maybe never leave) theory. Quit being so f'ing lazy with the old brain cells, take the services to them. Don't burden any one part of a city with all the social services. What about using these dying shopping centers all around town to provide social services? They all have bus stops too so transportation to & from is available. Most have a food court or restaurant so mass cooking facilities are there. Plenty of room to provide sleeping quarters and healthcare facilities.
As someone said, sell the downtown real estate being sucked up by all the current social services and spend it in the burbs. Think Green! The do-gooder suburbanites wouldn't have to travel so far to hand out food & clothing (you know, the trash that ends up discarded in the downtown and surrounding residential areas).
Quoteidentified themselves as 'christians'
I said nothing of the sort!
I'm a memeber of
'The Church of the Apathetic Agnostic'.http://www.uctaa.net/ (http://www.uctaa.net/)
Our Articles of Faith:
1.The existence of a Supreme Being is unknown and unknowable.
2.If there is a Supreme Being, then that being appears to act as if entirely apathetic to events in our universe.
3.We are apathetic to the existence or non-existence of a Supreme Being.
It costs $10.00 to get a replacement ID. You cannot work without that ID. You cannot get that ID without the $10.00.
Agencies which used to help those get the IDs have run out of funding.
Quote from: Pi on February 24, 2009, 01:13:17 PM
"As Christians we are all called to help these people--not turn our back on them. I'm sorry if I challenge your Christianity."
Wow, how pious of you to assume everyone is a Christian. Way to show your open mindedness.
Great criticism Pi, but what are you doing about the homeless issue?
Not saying I'm doing anything because of my religious beliefs. As soon as you do that and then fail then it all gets blamed on religion. Did you read my OTHER post?
Quote from: jtwestside on February 24, 2009, 02:16:37 PM
Quoteidentified themselves as 'christians'
I said nothing of the sort!
I'm a memeber of 'The Church of the Apathetic Agnostic'.
http://www.uctaa.net/ (http://www.uctaa.net/)
Our Articles of Faith:
1.The existence of a Supreme Being is unknown and unknowable.
2.If there is a Supreme Being, then that being appears to act as if entirely apathetic to events in our universe.
3.We are apathetic to the existence or non-existence of a Supreme Being.
"We don't know and we don't care"
I love it! I think I have a new favorite website.
Quote from: sheclown on February 23, 2009, 04:40:02 PM
You make such a good point, Coolyfett. I mean dodging the bumming-for-a-buck is hardly different than getting that pesky phone call from a telemarketer when I am in my jammies watching NCIS. It is invasive, but it is part of life.
Actually, bumming for a buck is probably a much more honest approach.
Yea it sucks, but honestly it doesn't keep me from hanging out downtown, I enjoy being downtown. I get on the train and the bums do the "Im hungry" speech...they get ignored. Its like they are waiting for a sucker to help them out. You can tell someone who is really down on their luck, and those that are professional bums. I would have to say that 90% of the homeless are professional bums. LABOR POOLS HIRE EVERY DAY!!!! EVERY FRIGGING DAY LABOR POOLS PICK UP WORKERS FOR CHEAP 6$ per hour work....If I was a bum I would sleep right at the door!
Actually, the labor pools pay minimum wage on up. I bet they wish they could get a way with $ 6.00 an hour! And they are struggling to find the work to send people out on. A few have closed various offices already and consolidated their businesses. This means the labor pools are becoming much more selective and the competition for the better jobs is fierce. This means more people out on the streets during the day.
I don't think plugging in hair trimmers or irons was a common occurence. Cell phones are a different story though. I am amazed at the number of homeless people I see that have cell phones. They use the temporary construction power poles to charge their phones in Springfield. I don't understand how you can't find a job or housing but you can figure out how to obtain and pay for a cell phone (then steal power to charge it.) They also have no problem working a computer as the computers at the library have been completely taken over by them. I would challenge anyone who feels sorry for these people to take a walk behind them and see what they are doing on those computers. I have and it's nothing productive. What the heck do they need with a cell phone or a computer? I think I'd be more concerned with getting a job or some education. Therein lies the answer though. They are not like you and me. What I have concluded after much observation is that the street people love to shoot the sh#t. They will sit around and talk all day long. They don't burden themselves with the daily grind of jobs, bills, families and other responsibilities. They would rather drink, chill and socialize all day and night in many cases. I live in the Urban Core and I long for a vibrant Downtown but I have all but given up on Jacksonville. Between the misguided efforts of the churches, non-profits and government I feel like this city has contributed to the problem to such an extent that the quality of life here is unsatisfactory. I cringe everytime I go downtown and see the bums outnumbering the decent people on the street. The Mayor should be ashamed and embarrassed of what he has allowed Hemming Plaza, the library and the surrounding pocket parks to become.
Springfield Girl, I couldn't agree with you more, and this is exactly why I have no sympathy for the vast majority of those you find hanging out in Hemming Plaza and the likes. It's disgusting to go to the library, let alone try and enjoy a few minutes at the park across the street...and it doesn't seem to matter what time of day it is, because they do out number the working class folks who just want to enjoy what we're paying for.
I do feel for and have no problem extending the hand up, for those who have fallen on hard times and want to better themselves...but I withdraw that hand up attitude when it comes to those who opt to sit around, drink (and whatever else) instead of doing everything possible to get themselves help and to get themselves back into being a productive member of society. I support the places that provide those kind of services for those who are sincerely trying to pick themselves back up...but not the places that just feed and house them for the night and boot them out during the day. I'm not talking about the ones who are mentally ill, but those who make the choice to not better improve their lives or situation. There's programs and facilities to help and it's up to them to take advantage of them.
I have no problem helping people down on their luck. But it really gets me when I see "regulars" begging at the bridge and interstate entry ramps around town looking for donations. These are just scam artists to me and it's amazing how many give them money.
They all look physically able and some of them have been around for years. Most all carry a handwritten carboard sign saying "God Bless" as if that gives them an official status of some sort. The standard get up is baggy, worn clothes, and the men are unshaven. If these people worked as hard in a job as they do begging, they would be far better off.
My support goes to social action organizations that hopefully are separating out the genuinely needy from those exploiting our society.
There are those in every "occupation" which are playing the system and robbing the pockets of the honest people.
My younger brother was employed with a law firm just off Hemming Park,and got a chance to observe several "Regulars" One woman would be dropped off,beg all day and take a cell phone out around 4pm and call for her male ride to pick her up.A favorite by my 5 points digs is for someone to tell you they broke down off 95 and need gas to get back on the road.One FOOL asked me twice one day! I laughed out loud when I asked if he remembered hitting me up earlier.I seem to be bothered more on foot or Bike. With my current financial conditions NO is the answer.I know how to Base Labor if I have to...You can too.
I don't give people on the streets money, but will offer to buy them something to eat. Oddly enough, they just about never want that. It's really rare when someone will take me up on the offer.
Ever offer to buy them a beer? They seldom turn that down.
The challenge we are all presented with is avoiding the easy path of contempt for the homeless because a percentage are con men. It is something Strider and I deal with all of the time. But, like I said before, same is true for lawyers, doctors, insurance salesmen, priests. You name it. We are all regular targets for The Con just packaged differently.
Interesting point of view. How much public money do we give to the lawyers, doctors, insurance salesmen, and priests? And will they require separate day centers in the suburbs or can we just give them different computers and rooms?
Springfielder , I have actually seen several homeless that were happy as clams to get a couple burgers from people that offered to bring it out to them.They are at least looking out for their own health,and not ignoring hunger for addiction.I also have offered this about 10 times randomly in the past few years and have had 0 offers..just turn tail and walk away. My 80 year old mother works at a riverside based charity that distributes food to the homeless that are signed up.She is amazed at the number of parents looking for junk food,little debbie/chips etc for their kids.I have worked volunteer at City Rescue Mission and was amazed that the $4 a loaf donated Publix bread was thrown out or given to the birds at the bus station... because they prefer Wonder bread.
Quote from: NotNow on February 28, 2009, 08:59:09 PM
Interesting point of view. How much public money do we give to the lawyers, doctors, insurance salesmen, and priests? And will they require separate day centers in the suburbs or can we just give them different computers and rooms?
Oh...quite a bit, I'm afraid.
Quote from: sheclown on February 28, 2009, 08:52:54 PM
The challenge we are all presented with is avoiding the easy path of contempt for the homeless because a percentage are con men. It is something Strider and I deal with all of the time. But, like I said before, same is true for lawyers, doctors, insurance salesmen, priests. You name it. We are all regular targets for The Con just packaged differently.
How about owners of halfway houses? do they also have the con men amongst them or are they immune from the disease?
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on February 28, 2009, 09:23:21 PM
How about owners of halfway houses? do they also have the con men amongst them or are they immune from the disease?
yeah...you gotta couple of bucks? I need a Mocha Frap.
I salute your grandmother Mary Sue, and I salute you too. I am grateful I get it as well.
So many people unfortunately just don't get it. I'm not saying the blanket hand out of course. I think the druggies and alcoholics should not be getting drugs and alcohol. It's kind of counter productive don't you think. SO, why are we selling beer to them?
I think Scotty's makes a lot of money off selling to those types. If you don't know what Scotty's is, let me know.
The stores sell it to them, because they have the money to make the purchase. It's not like you can deny selling a product to someone that may appear to be homeless, because of that...that's illegal. So as long as people give them money to buy, they will.
I think you could not sell to people who consume the beer in public then discard the container in the street or park. I don't think anybody could sue you for that. As a business owner you have the right to refuse service to people who are breaking the law. In America, you get to decide who you do business with. Unless you are the government.
So how is a merchant supposed to know all of that before selling? It's not up to the merchant to enforce the laws you're talking about.
He could start by carding everybody. If they don't have an ID card, then no beer. The law says you don't have to card if they look over 40 (I think), but that doesn't stop you from asking to begin with. No card, no beer, cigs, etc.
If he seems them drinking or urinating in public then dont sell them anything.
I somehow doubt the merchants are going to go outside to watch these people to see what they're doing and if they're urinating outside, just so they won't make another sale. As for carding people, yes, that can be used but the majority of the ones I see hanging in the park look old enough to buy smokes and beer. I agree that many may not have ID's and that could be a means not to sell, but that's about it.
hahahahahahahaha LMAO
Convenience store owners shouldn't sell beer to the homeless? Could all the people that were pissed off about the BP store at 8th & Liberty thread chime in now? They were pissed that some who lived near it didn't want drug-related items sold at the front counter. Accused the residents of wanting to shut down that business and then continued into a true BS sarcastic slippery slope of shutting down Walgreens and Walmart cause they sell the same crap. Now we're talking about getting them not to sell beer. Still LMAO.
Alright Lou Dobbs....I was just saying cut out the supply of beer to those 18 - 40 year olds that don't have ID ccards...gezzz