Metro Jacksonville

In a couple of private discussions this past thursday, I was informed about this money, and in fact had the pleasure of chatting with Michael Blaylock, the JTA director shortly after his phone call with Corrine Brown letting him know that Jacksonville had gotten a chunk of the money.

Apparently this time around Jacksonville will be prepared to be a part of the High Speed Rail discussion.

I was however, disappointed to find that Representative Mica (R) voted against the money.

The article is entitled: Obama plots huge Railroad expansion.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/18924.html

Quote
Railroads made Chicago, and now a Chicago-rich White House wants to return the favor: remaking rail with a huge new federal investment in high-speed passenger trains.

The $787.2 billion economic recovery bill â€" to be signed by President Barack Obama on Tuesday â€" dedicates $8 billion to high-speed rail, most of which was added in the final closed-door bargaining at the instigation of White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel.

It’s a sum that far surpasses anything before attempted in the United States â€" and more is coming. Administration officials told Politico that when Obama outlines his 2010 budget next week, it will ask for $1 billion more for high-speed rail in each of the next five years.

Yet for all the high stakes, the pieces didn’t fall into place until the end of deliberations on the recovery bill. And the way in which they did is revealing of the often late-breaking decisions â€" and politics â€" that shaped the final package.

As a candidate for president, Obama spoke of high-speed rail as part of his vision of “rebuilding America.” Campaigning in Indiana, he talked of revitalizing the Midwest by connecting cities with faster rail service to relieve congestion and improve energy conservation.

“The time is right now for us to start thinking about high-speed rail as an alternative to air transportation connecting all these cities,” he said. “And think about what a great project that would be in terms of rebuilding America.”

But the administration never emphasized high-speed rail when the House Appropriations Committee was writing its bill in January, so no money was included. The first real request came only days before the Senate Appropriations panel marked up, and the committee had to scramble to find room for $2 billion â€" in part by cutting other Obama priorities.

Last week, Emanuel greatly upped the ante, asking House-Senate negotiators for $10 billion for high-speed rail â€" far more than either bill provided.

“I put it in there for the president,” Emanuel said in an interview. “The president wanted to have a signature issue in the bill, his commitment for the future.”

Emanuel himself was excited by the idea, but the decision to wager so much on high-speed rail reflected the fact that other candidates for a signature Obama issue were fading.

Moderate Senate Republicans, whose votes were needed, were resisting the president’s school construction initiative. Modernizing the nation’s electric grid, another White House favorite, seemed to have lost some of its cachet.

High-speed rail sailed through with surprisingly little attention paid to the president’s role.

The same Maine and Pennsylvania Republican moderates who had criticized Obama’s school construction initiative were more accepting of the rail funds, since the Northeast corridor has a major stake in more improvements. To help pay for the added cost, a business tax break â€" providing a five-year carry back for net operating losses â€" was narrowed to keep the focus more on smaller firms with receipts of less than $15 million.

All but three Republicans voted against the stimulus package.  From what I understand, Mica wanted more money dedicated for mass transit and infrastructure related projects than what was approved.

i do agree. There are several things I do not agree with Brown. This is not one of them

Quote from: fatcat on February 17, 2009, 05:56:05 PM
i do agree. There are several things I do not agree with Brown. This is not one of them

This is great news. Even as a  liberal Democrat, she does rub me the wrong way sometimes, but you cant deny the fact that no one in Washington does more for Jax than Corrine Brown. "Corrine Delivers"

Mica was against the stimulus package as a whole.  Apparently they do not let you vote for just the portions you like... I remember reading somewhere that he was quite happy this piece was approved.

One more incentive to stick around. This is really good news.

On the network news tonight (NBC) they were saying it is expected most of the Stimulus High Speed Rail money will go to a Mag-Lev link between Los Angeles and Las Vegas.  How is Jacksonville a beneficiary of the Stimulus High Speed Rail money?  Or will we benefit from the subsequent package?  Either way - good news.

I like It. My only question is why did they leave that gap between Jax and Orlando? Is it something they are going to add later?

that map is based on the studies that have been undertaken in the past....the Florida High Speed Rail study in 2001/2002 looked at linking Tampa, Orlando, and Miami....thus explaining the gap w/ Jax

Tennessee can't be happy about being completely left out.

If we're going on the map that Stephen provided, the whole high-speed rail thing as it's presented there just strikes me as dumb, in my admittedly uneducated opinion.

What's the point of having disparate sections of high-speed rail travel?  Why not just connect them all together? 

-- Why have Tampa-Orlando-Miami on its own, but have a terminal in Jax that connects with the rest of the East and Gulf Coasts?

--Why stop the East Coast network in Pittsburgh, only to have another one pick up in Cleveland and be spoked out of Chicago?

--Why not connect the Northwest Passage (as it were) with the California portion?

Why, why, why only do portions and have none of them connect?  That strikes me as a much larger-scale version of Jacksonville having a bus system that doesn't connect to the Skyway, and launching a commuter rail system that doesn't connect to either.

$ .02

Where is Eisenhower when we need him?

Quote from: thelakelander on February 17, 2009, 04:04:01 PM
All but three Republicans voted against the stimulus package.  From what I understand, Mica wanted more money dedicated for mass transit and infrastructure related projects than what was approved.

Yeah, that's right Mica voted against the creation of almost 10,000 jobs in his district alone. I guess the recession hasn't hit him hard yet. Duh.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/documents/Recovery_Act_congressional_district_jobs_2-17.pdf  (http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/documents/Recovery_Act_congressional_district_jobs_2-17.pdf)

In fact the ALL 15 Republican congressmen voted against a total of almost 150,000 jobs.

Luckily for us, we have 10 Democratic Congressmen who voted for the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act aka the Stimulus.

Here is how rail funding is expected to be allocated:

QuotePassenger and Freight Rail Programs

The conference agreement provides:

$8,000,000,000 for high-speed rail corridors and intercity passenger rail service. Funds are allocated by DOT between the Capital Assistance to States program and a new High Speed Passenger Rail program.

Projects do not have to be in a state rail plan and there is a 100% federal share.

DOT will submit a strategic funding plan within 60 days and issue interim guidance covering grant terms, conditions and procedures within 120 days.
$1,300,000,000 for AMTRAK instead of $800,000,000 in the House and $850,000,000 in the Senate. Of the total funds, $450,000,000 is for capital grants for security improvements. No more than 60% of the remaining funds shall be spent for capital improvements on the Northeast Corridor.

http://t4america.org/news/archives/672 (http://t4america.org/news/archives/672)

Ooops, that should read: In fact the ALL 15 Republican congressmen voted against a total of almost 150,000 jobs.

Mica's shenanigans are well documented in many blogs the past few days, though it's pretty much standard operating procedure, of course. Oppose the bill viciously, vote against it, then show up at every ribbon cutting in the district paid for by federal funds.

They generally get away with it just because there aren't enough people out there to connect the dots on them, and maybe not enough people who care even if someone does.

QuoteNow This Is Political Chutzpah
Category:
Posted on: February 19, 2009 9:37 AM, by Ed Brayton

Vote against the stimulus bill because it was loaded with pork barrel spending AND put out a press release taking credit for those provisions in the bill that benefit your own state. No, seriously.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/62181.html

QuoteRep. John Mica was gushing after the House of Representatives voted Friday to pass the big stimulus plan.
"I applaud President Obama's recognition that high-speed rail should be part of America's future," the Florida Republican beamed in a press release.

Yet Mica had just joined every other GOP House member in voting against the $787.2 billion economic recovery plan.

But nowhere in the Mica Press Release was any mention that he opposed the bill.

Harclerode wasn't sure why Mica didn't mention his opposition. "It's not really secret," he said. "I guess it just wasn't the focus."

But a Florida Congressman can't hold a candle to one from Alaska when it comes to the pure hypocrisy of opposing earmarks while proposing them (yes I'm looking at you, Sarah Palin):

QuoteBut Mica wasn't alone in touting what he saw as the bill's virtues. Rep. Don Young, R-Alaska, also had nice things to say in a press release.
Young boasted that he "won a victory for the Alaska Native contracting program and other Alaska small business owners last night in H.R. 1, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act."...

Yet later in the day Young -- who recently told McClatchy that he would've included earmarks, or local projects, in the bill if it had been permitted -- issued another statement blasting the overall measure.

"This bill was not a stimulus bill. It was a vehicle for pet projects, and that's wrong," he protested.

Hilarious.

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/02/now_this_is_political_chutzpah.php

Since rail is not a priority of the State, how much of this do we think will make it to Florida?

I never knew the old high speed rail proposal Jeb killed was shovel ready.  Unfortunately for Jax, Orlando is being set up to be the statewide rail hub.

QuoteCould Stimulus Plan Bring High-Speed Rail To Tampa?

By RICH SHOPES | The Tampa Tribune

Published: February 19, 2009

TAMPA - High-speed rail looked dead four years ago, but backers of the proposal say it's being resuscitated now thanks to the recently approved federal stimulus package.

"This is unbelievable," said Lee Chira, chairman of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority.

The group hadn't met since voters in November 2004 opposed granting state taxes to the project â€" the first leg of which would have connected Orlando and Tampa for $2 billion.

Now the authority is hopeful it could get some of the $8 billion recently set aside for high-speed rail projects nationwide.

"We're 90 percent sure we'll get it because the president said he is looking for communities and authorities that have shovel-ready projects," Chira said. "We're farther along than anybody."

The authority sent a letter to the Federal Transit Administration on Jan. 27 expressing interest in the funds and has scheduled a meeting Feb. 26 in Orlando to discuss what to do next.

By mid-September, the authority must have its formal application submitted to the FTA.

The project's first leg from Orlando International Airport to Tampa was expected to cost $2 billion and include stops at downtown Orlando, Disney World and Lakeland.

The federal government issued environmental permits that would need to be updated, and several years ago granted permission to access the Interstate 4 median for the project, Chira said.

Orlando would become a hub for later extensions to Miami and Jacksonvillle.

"We could be under construction in 12 to 18 months," Chira said _ if the project receives funding.
After that it could be three to four years before trains are running. They would travel up to 120 mph.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2009, 12:35:23 AM
I never knew the old high speed rail proposal Jeb killed was shovel ready.  Unfortunately for Jax, Orlando is being set up to be the statewide rail hub.

Quote
Orlando would become a hub for later extensions to Miami and Jacksonvillle.

I know we've had some dialogue about this before, so excuse me if I am misunderstanding something, but to me, Jacksonville was never poised to be a hub for Florida. If anything, we would be a regional hub...providing primary access into and out of the state. But within Florida, it makes much more sense for Orlando to serve such a role. I don't even see how it's possible for Jax, being in the northeast corner, to ever be a statewide rail hub.

If this were air travel we were discussing, then logistics arent as relevant. Direct flights would go in and out of the busiest city/destination. But with rail...the hub more or less has gotta be a central location, no?

Anyway, I don't think this is anything to worry about, so long as we don't allow ourselves to become so insignificant that Orlando to New Orleans/Birmingham/Atlanta rail lines can bypass Jax.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2009, 12:35:23 AM
I never knew the old high speed rail proposal Jeb killed was shovel ready.  Unfortunately for Jax, Orlando is being set up to be the statewide rail hub.

QuoteCould Stimulus Plan Bring High-Speed Rail To Tampa?

By RICH SHOPES | The Tampa Tribune

Published: February 19, 2009

TAMPA - High-speed rail looked dead four years ago, but backers of the proposal say it's being resuscitated now thanks to the recently approved federal stimulus package.

"This is unbelievable," said Lee Chira, chairman of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority.

The group hadn't met since voters in November 2004 opposed granting state taxes to the project â€" the first leg of which would have connected Orlando and Tampa for $2 billion.

Now the authority is hopeful it could get some of the $8 billion recently set aside for high-speed rail projects nationwide.

"We're 90 percent sure we'll get it because the president said he is looking for communities and authorities that have shovel-ready projects," Chira said. "We're farther along than anybody."

The authority sent a letter to the Federal Transit Administration on Jan. 27 expressing interest in the funds and has scheduled a meeting Feb. 26 in Orlando to discuss what to do next.

By mid-September, the authority must have its formal application submitted to the FTA.

The project's first leg from Orlando International Airport to Tampa was expected to cost $2 billion and include stops at downtown Orlando, Disney World and Lakeland.

The federal government issued environmental permits that would need to be updated, and several years ago granted permission to access the Interstate 4 median for the project, Chira said.

Orlando would become a hub for later extensions to Miami and Jacksonvillle.

"We could be under construction in 12 to 18 months," Chira said _ if the project receives funding.
After that it could be three to four years before trains are running. They would travel up to 120 mph.

Hmmmm by shovel ready do we mean that all the property, easement, right of way has been procured?  All the environmental impact statements and clearances have been obtained?  If not then its not shovel ready

12-18 months to start up should not be defined as shovel ready.  Lets face its being project to start up in 12 to 18 months it will be 2 to 3 years minimum

Do the same "shovel ready" timelines apply to high speed rail as to highway projects?  I've heard there are different timelines for road projects depending on who is doing it- the state or a local government, so high speed rail could have a longer schedule.  Somebody read those thousand pages, stat!

The Environmental Impact Statements for High Speed Rail were completed 5 years ago...and after JEB convinced voters to kill it, the remaining money went to designing multimodal transportation centers (like the one JTA & FDOT have proposed here).

The design for the Orlando center is complete, the one at the Miami Airport is partially constructed, and design was ongoing for the centers in Tampa and St. Petersburg....the land has been acquired in all 4 cities, and since the train would run in the meian of I-4 and the Greeneway in Orlando, that land is in place too.

So, yes, parts of this are probably "shovel ready" right now with the rest being ready very soon.

It may be shovel ready, but I'm not too crazy about spending $2 billion for a high speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando.  I believe Amtrak (with more stations and frequent service) would be a better and cheaper option.

QuoteOoops, that should read: In fact the ALL 15 Republican congressmen voted against a total of almost 150,000 jobs.

Mica's shenanigans are well documented in many blogs the past few days, though it's pretty much standard operating procedure, of course. Oppose the bill viciously, vote against it, then show up at every ribbon cutting in the district paid for by federal funds.

They generally get away with it just because there aren't enough people out there to connect the dots on them, and maybe not enough people who care even if someone does.

I don't want to turn this into a political discussion as this isn't the forum for it. But it's ludicrous to say that they didn't have provisions put even if they didn't vote against it or that they should have voted for it just because they supported 1% of where the money was going. 

This bill should have been 50% high speed rail and transit not 1% and put in at the last minute to boot. The whole thing is a "use a crisis to push a agenda" bill more than anything. The Bush administration did it after 9/11 and that's what's happening now. Neither one is right. It's interesting that after criticizing Bush for evoking 9/11 to push his agenda the left is using "financial crisis" like it's going out of style. Thank god the republicans have the backbone to stand against it.

I don't think I need to remind anyone that Obama has been in office for 1 month today and the DOW is down 2k points. I don't want to bash him too much, except that he was making some pretty heft heal the world promises during the campaign.

I agree Stephen... but to be fair to jt... he was responding to Fayes political analysis.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2009, 08:11:21 AM
It may be shovel ready, but I'm not too crazy about spending $2 billion for a high speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando.  I believe Amtrak (with more stations and frequent service) would be a better and cheaper option.

agreed...but it was kind of hard for me to say that too loud while working on the study

Quote from: stephendare on February 20, 2009, 08:49:06 AM

Its like inheriting a beautiful sprawling old victorian mansion, and never ever spending money on repair or maintenance, never fixing a leak, a broken board, or window, but instead covering all the faults up with expensive decor.

At some point, the opulence doesnt cover up the general ruin.

It doesnt matter whether or not you are a republican or a democrat in that circumstance. Its simply time to grab hammer and saw and break out the screwgun.

stephendare, I agree. That is exactly what happened to Amtrak.

jtwestside, it's one thing to use the 9/11 crisis to take our nation to a war in Iraq under false pretenses, that has already cost us $3 trillion dollars ( and continues to cost us $12 billion every single month), it's quite another thing to respond to our very real economic crisis to work to rebuild America by investing in infrastructure, helping the unemployed, and inject funds to help states, while including the largest middle-class tax cuts ever.

All of this was voted against by all 15 Florida Republican Congressmen, and I don't even have to remind you who systematically starved Amtrak of investments over the years. The only other plan out there was a Republican Tax Cuts only plan, with NO stimulus investment in infrastructure at all.

Would these high speed rails be iused by freight also.

some of them yes....but not the ones proposed for FL

How high speed are we talking about?

I think 120mph.  For comparison's sake, Amtrak's Acela Express (Boston-NYC-DC, etc.) operates at speeds in excess of 135mph.

So if they are running on dedicated transit tracks would that make the service less likely to meet the budget chopping block than Amtrak did.  I know there is not a firm answer to that but it may be that is a good reason not to just use Amtrak. As soon as an administration gets into office that is not transit friendly Amtrak meets budgeticide.

Amtrak just received billions in additional funding.  Amtrak's problems in the past have been a result of a lack of funding.  If Florida is willing to get on board with a statewide corridor service (we don't have one right now), money is now in place to fix track capacity issues. 

That is my point it seems the government like to cut Amtrak budget when the freight companies complain. I prefer the Amtrak idea so to look on the bright side of high speed rail maybe it will have some immunity to politics with it's budget.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/FloridaRailMap2006-1.jpg)

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on February 20, 2009, 03:14:20 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2009, 12:35:23 AM
I never knew the old high speed rail proposal Jeb killed was shovel ready.  Unfortunately for Jax, Orlando is being set up to be the statewide rail hub.

Quote
Orlando would become a hub for later extensions to Miami and Jacksonvillle.

I know we've had some dialogue about this before, so excuse me if I am misunderstanding something, but to me, Jacksonville was never poised to be a hub for Florida. If anything, we would be a regional hub...providing primary access into and out of the state. But within Florida, it makes much more sense for Orlando to serve such a role. I don't even see how it's possible for Jax, being in the northeast corner, to ever be a statewide rail hub.

If this were air travel we were discussing, then logistics aren't as relevant. Direct flights would go in and out of the busiest city/destination. But with rail...the hub more or less has gotta be a central location, no? 

(http://assets.bizjournals.com/story_image/111314-600-0-2.jpg)
(http://assets.bizjournals.com/story_image/124227-600-0-2.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3119/2557415374_c535305d80.jpg)
(http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/display/45cf7f14-d947-4411-8a72-ae5e5e3408bf.jpg)
In a league of our own... Will we surrender this too?

This is not a question as to "if we were ever positioned to be a rail hub for Florida." FACT. WE ARE THE RAIL HUB OF FLORIDA. There is no other city that even comes close in rail infrastructure. Not a single major City in the State with 3 class 1 freight railroads - but Jax. Not a City in the state with 5 regional terminal railroads but Jax. Not a city in the state with a single railroad HQ, we have 2 major, and 40 smaller railroad HQ's here. Not another City in the state with a large Union Station that is central to all rail lines - but Jax, in fact ours is the largest South of Washington D.C.. What about mainlines into or out of each Florida City? Pensacola=3, Tampa=3, Miami=3, West Palm=4, Ocala=4, Orlando= 3, Gainesville=1, Sarasota=2, Ft. Myers=2, Jacksonville = 7.

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/468572828_e4c927b0a2.jpg)

Orlando has about as much rail infrastructure as St. Augustine, historically St. Augustine had much, much more then Orlando and it's only been in the last 40 years that everything (at least on the Florida East Coast) has scooted north to Jacksonville.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20STREETCARS%20TROLLEYS/STREETCARatTampaUnionStation.jpg)
Waiting for Amtrak in Tampa

There is no exit or no entrance from the peninsular of the State of Florida by rail except through Beaver St. / Myrtle Avenue Interlocking plant of NS/CSX/FEC. In Jacksonville.

As far as building entire new high speed lines, this is doomed to one of two things:
Utter and complete failure due to FDOT lack of railroad competence.
Or over-engineering and spending on the whole system, which will leave future segments unbuilt and unfunded, and passenger numbers in the gutter.

WHY?

Because this new generation of "rail planner" thinks if we build a 4 track electric railroad down the middle of I-4, 95 or 10, and run 200 MPH trains every 5 minutes, people are just going to magically materialize to ride them.

No thought is being given to the residents for example who make up the bulk of the travelers from Orlando to Tampa, rather the new railroad is to go from OIA/MCO to TPA (both airports) with stations along the interstate for Lakeland etc. FORGET IT! Won't work. I lived in Lake Mary for 6 years, and if I've got to drive to OIA to catch a train to Tampa, I'm better off DRIVING all the way to Tampa! Ooh, but I'll miss the stop at Disney!

The only way to make High Speed Rail work here is the same way it worked in Japan, Europe and the US Northeast Corridor. Start with downtown to downtown conventional rail, increase trains, increase frequency's, build new stations, improve equipment, build overpasses, expand capacity, create corridors, increase speeds again, and build, build, build a following. A rail community, a rail society, a rail generation.

Anything short of this, and all the money in the world isn't going to fix the problem. [/color] [/b]

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, nice map.  I suppose history, politics, and geography has a lot to do with it, but I must say one would have thought along the way we could have had more direct and logically laid out rail pathways and grids. I wonder how much inefficiency is created by so many jig-jag and broken lines.  Looking at our roadmaps, you could probably make the same comment about some of them too. :)

It did with a capital "DID" have flow in it until starting in 1968, inch by inch the branchlines were cut, when the Staggers Act passed in 1980? It was wholesale slaughter. Florida decided to super-tax the railroads for all that unused property, which resulted in even faster abandonments. Some were done so quickly that tracks were cut-off from the scrap trains and left to rot in the woods! We went from a state with many exit routes, IE: JAX, Lake City, Live Oak, Perry, etc.. and some 5,000+ miles of railroad to a state with barely over 1,000 miles, a few mainlines, and a bunch of dead end pieces. Maybe I should do the map and fill in all the abandoned portions... IT WOULD SHOCK ALL OF YOU! How stupid we have been with our resources.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2009, 03:48:14 PM
I think 120mph.  For comparison's sake, Amtrak's Acela Express (Boston-NYC-DC, etc.) operates at speeds in excess of 135mph.

the Florida High Speed Rail is planned for 200+ with an average of 150....that's the main reason they didn't go with the current Amtrak/CSX routes...they would have been limited to around 80mph on average.

As to some of the other talk, Jax may be a freight rail hub...and could even serve as a passenger hub to/from other states....but hardly for passenger trips within Florida...Orlando is the center of the state's population.

I think the problem is there is no need for a rail line running 200mph from Tampa to Orlando.  The stretch between Tampa and Orlando is roughly the same length as South Florida's Tri-rail commuter rail system.  High speed rail does nothing for the rapidly growing communities springing up between the larger cities.  A system running 79mph, but with stops in Plant City, Brandon, Lakeland, Auburndale, Haines City, Kissimmee, etc. would be more beneficial to Cen. Fl. residents than one with only one stop between Tampa and Orlando.

Why not follow the northeast model?  My recollection from former years up there was they ran both the high speed/express (and mostly business person oriented) Metroliners/Acela which only stopped at major cities and, on the same or parallel tracks, slower (and cheaper) non-express trains stopping at every town in between.  Riders could take their pick based on their needs and budgets.

I would think a high speed/express train in Florida might be Jax-Orlando-[split]-Tampa and Miami.  If we could get a west bound line from Jax, those from the south could continue from Jax to Tallahassee to Pensacola.  I would imagine most tickets in the initial phase would be Tampa-Miami, Jax-Miami, Jax-Orlando, Jax-Tampa, or Orlando-Miami.  Later, adding Tallahassee, as the state capital, and Pensacola could do wonders for the accessibility of those cities to the state's population centers and would make Jax the pivot point for express rail as well as the inter-connection to interstate trains from the North.  Also, with this arrangement, most of the state's population and commerce would be within a 60 minute drive of these stations.

The non-express trains could hit Daytona, St. Augustine, Gainesville, Lakeland, St. Pete/Sarasota, Ft. Myers, Ft. Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, Titusville, Ocala, Okeechobee, Deland, etc.  Maybe, some of those cities could be served by connecting to local area commuter rail lines radiating out of the larger express line cities.  Orlando might serve as the "hub" for the non-express network.

(http://www.dogcaught.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/img_0058.jpg)
This is Amtrak TODAY, and "Florida" if it only had a brain.

Yes, it makes more sense to take advantage of an existing rail corridor where the center of nearly every Central Florida community exists, along with a station.  In Central Florida, outside of Tampa, the I-4 median routes would drop one off dead smack dab in the middle of Blanding Blvd. like environments.

Lakeland
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2756-p1050314.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2775-p1050271.JPG)

I agree completely that it makes sense to use the existing tracks...but Ock, are you really implying that Jax. would be a good rail hub for train trips WITHIN Florida?

Really, there are about 5 million people along the I-4 corridor....and another 5 million along I-95 in SE Florida....Jax has 1 million....and there is only about another million in northwest Florida.

Yes, the high speed rail studies assumed lots of tourists using it...in fact, Disney offered to put all of their visitors arriving at OIA on the train instead of all those buses...as long as the Greeneway route was chosen w/ a stop at Disney vs. the I-4/Beachline route with a stop on I-Drive.

Now sure, Jax could serve as a gateway for trips to/frm the northeast and Atlanta....but that's about it!

It's not if we should be the hub we are. If you can get a south to central Florida direct great but other than that Jax is where the trains go is where the diffrent rail lines connect.

I figured I would awaken the sleeping rail giant. But alas, Ock, I think you misunderstand me and my ignorant rail mind. tufsu and I are on the same page...

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 21, 2009, 06:08:37 PM
I agree completely that it makes sense to use the existing tracks...but Ock, are you really implying that Jax. would be a good rail hub for train trips WITHIN Florida?

Really, there are about 5 million people along the I-4 corridor....and another 5 million along I-95 in SE Florida....Jax has 1 million....and there is only about another million in northwest Florida.

Yes, the high speed rail studies assumed lots of tourists using it...in fact, Disney offered to put all of their visitors arriving at OIA on the train instead of all those buses...as long as the Greeneway route was chosen w/ a stop at Disney vs. the I-4/Beachline route with a stop on I-Drive.

Now sure, Jax could serve as a gateway for trips to/frm the northeast and Atlanta....but that's about it!

And we could be the gateway to the west...that's where the real battle would be. If passenger lines are established from Orlando to Tally then we're left out.

Quote from: JeffreyS on February 21, 2009, 07:59:32 PM
It's not if we should be the hub we are. If you can get a south to central Florida direct great but other than that Jax is where the trains go is where the diffrent rail lines connect.

lol, jeff, some punctuation would help. If Im reading you correctly, I think the difference is in how we perceive a rail "hub." And no one is saying Jax wouldn't be a crucial player in the region as a whole.

Question for the rail aficionado: can the high speed trains run on normal tracks at slower speed? If so, I don't think it matters at all that certain high-speed corridors are fragmented from others. That just means you ride one leg (like Orlando to Jax or Pittsburgh to Cleveland) of normal rail and voila, you're in a new high speed corridor. Nobody is being left stranded (assuming Amtrak fills in its current gaps of service)

that's the man advantage of the Acela train...since it tilts, its able to run at relatively high speeds on some of Amtrak's less straight rail...something many of the European trains can't do

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 21, 2009, 12:05:00 PM

BTW, the Obama push for the Midwest High Speed Rail Project is not his own project. Spearheaded by Ohio and in the books for YEARS, it has finally started to move forward. Other states joined in and they formed a compact. When Obama spoke of the benefits of High Speed Rail in his famous fast train speech in Denver? He was READING FROM THE MIDWEST HSR BROCHURE! Now this isn't to toss dirt on the President, but just to give you a sense of how deep this heartfelt concern really goes.

HMMM, You prefer going back to Bush's heartfelt concern?

As your buddy Mica says:
Picking up a bottle of water and pointing to it, he (Mica) said, “Working with the Bush Administration has been like talking to this bottle of water. My side of the aisle has been myopic.”
http://www.railwayage.com/B/xfromtheeditor.html

I would say Mica is heartfelt about helping CSX and getting freight trains out of Winter Park where he lives, but he is not about working to help Amtrak......Something to keep in mind!!!

His side of the isle hasn't been particularly good on public transit, as they simply do not believe in government. Yet no public transit system can be realized without government funding!

I like your downtown to down town suggestion vs Airport to Airport  :)

It's combatting commuter congestion vs tourist congestion. On the other hand, if we make it more convenient for tourists, we might boost our tourist industry, which is something Florida heavily depends on.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on February 21, 2009, 08:11:44 PM

Quote

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 21, 2009, 06:08:37 PM
I agree completely that it makes sense to use the existing tracks...but Ock, are you really implying that Jax. would be a good rail hub for train trips WITHIN Florida?

Really, there are about 5 million people along the I-4 corridor....and another 5 million along I-95 in SE Florida....Jax has 1 million....and there is only about another million in northwest Florida.

Yes, the high speed rail studies assumed lots of tourists using it...in fact, Disney offered to put all of their visitors arriving at OIA on the train instead of all those buses...as long as the Greeneway route was chosen w/ a stop at Disney vs. the I-4/Beachline route with a stop on I-Drive.

It really has nothing to do with population's or even density, Amtrak's "Empire Builder" from Chicago to Seattle across the roof of the nation consistantly leads the country in ridership. Railroads are point to point lineal systems, hub and spokes systems work great for airlines (Example Jax to Pensacola all day long as long as it's to Atlanta first). So the function of a rail "hub" is basically different then that of an airline hub. In an airline hub all flights are grouped to converge at the same time frames, then there is a frantic rush of passengers from plane to plane, along with the sundry ground crews determined to make sure at least 2 bags from each plane get on a flight to Mexico City (LOL).  Bus hubs work much the same way, single vehicle, grouped schedules, mad transfers etc... Rail depends to a great degree on the passenger traveling from Jax to St. Augustine, Palatka, Ocala, Daytona, or Dade City. When lines converge the passengers remain seated (or sleeping) and the train itself is broken up for various destinations - seemless transfer. The only common point it shares with any other form is with the intra or inter-city bus, which also uses a city-center to city-center passenger delivery method.

Populations not withstanding, rail takes a single train (one each way daily) and serves many micro-corridors within the same trip. Chicago-Kansas City, Kansas City-Newton Kansas, Santa Fe-Gallup, Albuquerque-Flagstaff, etc... all with ONE train.

The amount of construction to do what Florida has in mind in Orlando is economic insanity. Yes, it is just for tourists, so we Floridians don't count. If we did Jacksonville, Daytona Beach, Tallahassee, Pensacola, Ft. Myers, Sarasota would all be added to the route map. But with the crazy planning, if you live in Ocala, you'll board a 200 mile per hour train, to Orlando, then rush across an AIRPORT to another 200 mile per hour train for Tampa. You could walk it almost as fast. Airline thinking and rail operations won't work.  

QuoteNow sure, Jax could serve as a gateway for trips to/frm the northeast and Atlanta....but that's about it!


And we could be the gateway to the west...that's where the real battle would be. If passenger lines are established from Orlando to Tally then we're left out.

Quote

Quote from: JeffreyS on February 21, 2009, 07:59:32 PM
It's not if we should be the hub we are. If you can get a south to central Florida direct great but other than that Jax is where the trains go is where the diffrent rail lines connect.

lol, jeff, some punctuation would help. If Im reading you correctly, I think the difference is in how we perceive a rail "hub." And no one is saying Jax wouldn't be a crucial player in the region as a whole.

Since no right minded Floridian is going to take advantage of the giant Orlando "HUB", and since Disney is a major player (who by the way will pull their support IF the train gets near International Drive, Sea World or Universal!) The whole thing is a giant corportate vaccuum to suck up our dollars for the benefit of a mouse, as well as the throngs that rush to visit him.
This isn't so much a "Florida Rail Plan" it's "Mickeys Railroad" all over again.

You are correct that we do own the WEST and the NORTH of Florida as far as rail is concerned. How long until the proposed Gulf Coast Corridor and the Southeast HSR Corridor (which ends in JAX) will all connect in .... JAX?  Then if Mickeys Railroad goes north to Jax, 3 completely different systems, 3 connecting and interchanging railroads = TRUE RAIL HUB.

If you think I'm wrong can you imagine JTA's system hubbed out of JIA? Who would ride it? Airline passengers to be sure but Downtown, Riverside, Beaches, etc... would be screwed. This is exactly what the State proposes to do with an Orlando "Hub". Nobody in Orlando is going to drive out 20 miels to the airport, wait, board a train, race to Tampa Airport, rent a car and drive into town... ANYONE could drive it faster and cheaper. This isn't "RAIL THINK" this is Train-thinks-it's-a-plan disaster in the making.

How about flying to Orlando from JAX if the fare was only $15 dollars? How about $30 dollars? Did you know we have had such fares for a month at a time as promotions? Did you take the HIGH SPEED PLANE? My guess is no, it's just not the arrival and departure place of choice for anybody I know.   

QuoteQuestion for the rail aficionado: can the high speed trains run on normal tracks at slower speed? If so, I don't think it matters at all that certain high-speed corridors are fragmented from others. That just means you ride one leg (like Orlando to Jax or Pittsburgh to Cleveland) of normal rail and voila, you're in a new high speed corridor. Nobody is being left stranded (assuming Amtrak fills in its current gaps of service)

Yes most trains can run on either type of track, provided they have the power source (probably electric). Certainly this "COULD" be part of the answer, but space limitations in the Downtown just about take Orlando completely out of the game. Amtrak isn't downtown, Church Street Station is abandoned (as a depot), Winter Park - NOT A CHANCE!, The new LYNX station is central but has no room for track. So we're back to OIA, and OIA is a whole different kind of boondoggle.

FAYE: Not making an Obama vs Mica comment here, just that Obama wasn't using his own ideas, or those of his advisors.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ock...you're just not getting it...no one is disputing the position of Jax. in terms of serving the rest of the country.

But rail passengers from Jax. to St. Augustine, Palatka, Ocala, Daytona, or Dade City....there are far more potential passengers on a Orlando-Lakeland-Tampa route.

Orlando is not just a tourism mecca (although it often seems that way)...its a growing metropolis of over 2 million people....with the second largest university in the state....and happens to be in the middle of the peninsula....it makes complete sense as a hub for INTRA-FLORIDA travel!

I agree that Orlando is in position to be a central hub for statewide passenger rail, assuming the focus is only Florida.  However, Jax should and probably will remain the hub and gateway of most rail traffic coming in and out of the state.

I love a train as much as the next guy (ok, maybe not as much as Ock), but I only want them where it makes financial sense and doesn't set the future image of rail transit up for failure.  The unfortunate part about the high speed rail plan in Central Florida is its set up for tourist, as opposed to Central Florida's 7 million residents.  High speed makes sense between Orlando and Miami, but commuter rail linking Central Florida's cities would be superior (and cheaper) than high speed rail with severly limited stops in the middle of I-4. 

Yeah, Lake, I understand your point about the dense Orlando-Tampa corridor. It's short and quite populated along much of that stretch. Let tourists take the "express" routes on the commuter rail.

(http://www.boingboing.net/images/_gimages_epcot.jpg)

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 22, 2009, 08:48:21 PM
Ock...you're just not getting it...no one is disputing the position of Jax. in terms of serving the rest of the country.

But rail passengers from Jax. to St. Augustine, Palatka, Ocala, Daytona, or Dade City....there are far more potential passengers on a Orlando-Lakeland-Tampa route.

Orlando is not just a tourism mecca (although it often seems that way)...its a growing metropolis of over 2 million people....with the second largest university in the state....and happens to be in the middle of the peninsula....it makes complete sense as a hub for INTRA-FLORIDA travel!

Quote from: thelakelander on February 22, 2009, 09:15:17 PM
I agree that Orlando is in position to be a central hub for statewide passenger rail, assuming the focus is only Florida.  However, Jax should and probably will remain the hub and gateway of most rail traffic coming in and out of the state.

I love a train as much as the next guy (ok, maybe not as much as Ock), but I only want them where it makes financial sense and doesn't set the future image of rail transit up for failure.  The unfortunate part about the high speed rail plan in Central Florida is its set up for tourist, as opposed to Central Florida's 7 million residents.  High speed makes sense between Orlando and Miami, but commuter rail linking Central Florida's cities would be superior (and cheaper) than high speed rail with severly limited stops in the middle of I-4. 

A look at the USDOT traffic volume maps for the Interstate Highway System tells the story. The traffic pattern's in Florida are not East-West, not even I-4 centered. If you want the heavy traffic in Florida look from Wildwood North to Lake City on I-75, roughly twice I-95's volume, and dwarfs I-10. The Turnpike to Orlando and Miami take about 1/2 that traffic, bringing it down to I-95 levels, while the other half head for the West Coast. The standout reason that Daytona Beach/Titusville/Cocoa/Melbourne-Orlando-Tampa isn't showing a huge volume is just what Lake said, it's not HIGH SPEED RAIL travel country, if anything, it's Amtrak and Commuter Rail country. Most trips are short distance and spread over hundreds of feeder roads.

IF the High Speed Rail needs a hub in Central Florida, TAMPA is better positioned to handle the trains then Orlando. With rail, END POINT cities always make more sense then middle of the road cities. (Before anyone has an AH HA! moment!) Jacksonville is all of the above. Tampa has a Union Station, with room for replacing the original 8-10 tracks, which would serve to make up and break down trains headed East or Southeast.

As for East/North of Orlando, blood will flow before they decide on a route to the coast and actually build it. Daytona? no! Cocoa? no! Melbourne? no! etc...  If you try and be all inclusive with a fishhook along the beach, then your back to square one - easier to drive.

The fact is, this system isn't planned to serve those 3-5 Million residents, if it was, the stations would be on the CSX and FEC Mainlines, and at some point the HSR would peel off and make a dash for the next station which is ... OOPS only 10 miles away! 200 miles per hour indeed!

A fleet of remanufactured RDC cars, some platform rebuilds and for the cost of the paper in the HSR study, Central Florida would have a system it would REALLY use.

You see, I do "get it", Florida tax payers are going to end up paying BILLIONS for a new ride for DISNEY. DISNEY ONLY mind you. If Universal or Sea World or International Drive come to play, Disney has already said they will opt out! This isn't Florida High Speed Rail, this is Epcot Vomit.  

OCKLAWAHA

ok. i think i am moving to Orlando. Better public transportation, less homeless, more active urban  core, better food plus mice for me to eat ;)