Metro Jacksonville

NY City has Central Park.  Washington DC has the Mall.  San Francisco has Golden Gate Park.  Philadelphia has the Benjamin Franklin Parkway/Fairmount Park.  Boston has Boston Commons.  And Jacksonville has .....?

Most great cities of the world have places where hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people can gather at one time for great celebrations and events in their downtown areas. Jacksonville has Hemming Plaza!  ::)

After hosting the Super Bowl in 2005, the Jax community should be more aware than ever of the value of, and need for, a mega-site consisting of dozens of urban acres to host major events of local, regional, national, or global importance. The SB host committee utilized two such sites for their event (one for concerts, the other for the NFL experience), both still unused, but neither currently on the drawing boards for retention by our community as event sites.

These two sites are the Shipyards property along the river on the Northbank and the former JEA Southside Generating Plant property on the Southbank. Either, or both, of these sites should be a priority for preservation as public spaces to allow Jax to host super-large events, festivities, and gatherings as its population, and hoped-for national influence and reputation, grow.  Without such venues, Jacksonville's capacity to host large events will be forever limited, much more so than even by a convention center which could hold only a fraction of the people utilizing an outdoor venue.

Think about the up to 2 million people that visited DC for the inauguration.  Or the hundreds of thousands in Central Park for a concert.  Or the 1 million that have gathered in Philly for a spring festival.  Jax can barely accommodate a few thousand for fireworks, mostly spread out for miles along the downtown river banks.

And, should Jax lose the aforementioned sites, where and how would we be able to host an event like the Super Bowl again?  Where could we place tens of thousands of visitors like that in the future?

We can always find a couple of city blocks for a convention center (I think the courthouse site could spare a few!), but finding dozens of acres downtown in the future will be nearly impossible to replicate.  (Hey, maybe a new convention center could be co-located on such a site.)

NOW is the time for Jax to step up and secure one or both of these mega-sites, or forever mortgage our opportunity to be a host to big time events. Both sites are in indefinite limbo, their values depressed due to the economy.  Why not utilize/reinvest/bond some of our hotel taxes or other tourists revenues to acquire these lands today.

This is basically the idea behind Peyton's plan to relocate Kid Kampus for "flex space".

QuoteDOWNTOWN -- The city's desire to keep public riverfront land in Downtown's core has spread eastward to its real estate holdings near Alltel Stadium, where plans are focused on moving a children's park to make way for green space.

Kids Kampus would be relocated from its Northbank spot near Metropolitan Park to the "Kid's Zone," a conceptual site on the city's recently unveiled "Big Ideas" plan for Downtown redevelopment.

This would free up the 24-acre parcel where the park is now located for "flex space," a term city staff use for land such as the Shipyards and former JEA Southside Generating Station sites, which remain vacant and were used during Super Bowl XXXIX as temporary special events locations.

full article: http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2006/03/06/story7.html

Quote from: stjr on February 15, 2009, 11:46:32 PM
NY City has Central Park.  Washington DC has the Mall.  San Francisco has Golden Gate Park.  Philadelphia has the Benjamin Franklin Parkway/Fairmount Park.  Boston has Boston Commons.  And Jacksonville has .....?

Most great cities of the world have places where hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people can gather at one time for great celebrations and events in their downtown areas. Jacksonville has Hemming Plaza!  ::)

Our "Central Park" is the 37 acres of linear park space between Springfield and Downtown formerly known as Springfield Park.  Instead of maintaining and utilizing it, the city turned its back on this unique space by cutting it off from downtown (ex. turning State & Union into a major highway and destroying most of the buildings in this area).  Instead of only focusing on the riverfront, I'd prefer the community work to rebuild this space to the point where it can be just as popular as the Boston Common. 

Jacksonville's Central Park?

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2592-hogans-creek-parks-aerial.jpg)

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more images:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/609/117/

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/423/115/

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/427/117/

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/424/117/

I wonder what Savannah would do with a huge public park like this?  Somehow I doubt they would let it fall into disrepair, abandon it to hookers and drug dealers... :'(

Here's a few images of Savannah's:

Forsyth Park
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Learning From Georgia IV: Savannah's Forsyth Park
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=718.0

Great thread and great point about this parcel of land that used to be a working, viable City Park.  I agree, this land should be redeveloped, upgraded, and restored into Jacksonville's Central Park.  I remember my Aunt taking me and some cousins to this area when I was a kid in the 60's.  She lived on Jefferson Street and this Park was right next to her home.  We picnic'd there and then walked from the western portion all the way down to Confederate Park on Main and 1st.  There were numerous othe people, mostly black back then that frequented this park (as most of the neighborhoods back then in that area were black), but there were throngs of people picnicing, walking, and frequenting this park.  There was also a swimming pool, again that was mostly frequented by blacks, in the park as well.

Jacksonville, and the world has changed since then.  I would imagine all types of people would come to this park if it were redeveloped, security enhanced (police along with security guards), and even rebuild a community swimming pool for eveyone's enjoyment.  There are numerous ideas and civic contributions that could be entailed and added to further make this parcel of land a working park once again and an enjoyment for the City of Jacksonville.

Great thread! ;)

With some redevlopment, "Springfield Park" should easily become the shining star of the local urban parks.  Rebuild it and allow for dense development along its borders complete with transit connections and it is destined for success.  IMO, leave the Shipyards and Jea sites to the private developers.

We need a good mayor and good city leaders,,until then expect the same yr after yr.

Metro Park is too small?

Quote from: thelakelander on February 16, 2009, 07:00:12 AM
This is basically the idea behind Peyton's plan to relocate Kid Kampus for "flex space".

QuoteOur "Central Park" is the 37 acres of linear park space between Springfield and Downtown formerly known as Springfield Park.  Instead of maintaining and utilizing it, the city turned its back on this unique space by cutting it off from downtown (ex. turning State & Union into a major highway and destroying most of the buildings in this area).  Instead of only focusing on the riverfront, I'd prefer the community work to rebuild this space to the point where it can be just as popular as the Boston Common. 

Jacksonville's Central Park?

The property appraiser's info shows over 45 acres for the Shipyards and over 50 acres for JEA (about 42 acres) combined with 8.5 contiguous acres owned by the City on the Southbank.  This doesn't count the long term possibility of adding the School Board's property.

Lake's quote from the City indicates Metro Park at 24 acres but it looks to be closer to 21 acres unless WJCT is sharing some of its property.  Either way, this about half of the other properties.

I think Metro Park is (a) too small and (b) too remote and unconnected to downtown.

The Springfield Park, IMHO, is (a) at Lake's stated 37 acres, smaller than the subject properties, (b) linear in shape, stretching over many city blocks which makes it impractical for a focused event, (c) divided/chopped into pieces with the creek running through (d) too remote and disconnected from downtown, and (e) lacks Jacksonville's signature status of being on the river.

I agree both Metro and Springfield Parks have great untapped potential but that potential is not in line with my proposition for a signature mega-site for mega-events in this thread.

JEA and the Shipyards are much larger parcels, more regularly shaped, more connected to downtown, and along the scenic and signature St. Johns River setting (which in itself engenders it to water oriented events involving boats, skiing, visiting ships, water taxis, panoramic fireworks, the river walks, etc.).

If Jax is ever going to break out of its "small town" "back woods" mentality, its got to start thinking on a much more grander and imaginative scale.  The value of the JEA and Shipyard properties above all others should be obvious. Just ask any private developer what he/she would value the most of these choices.  That should be the same thinking of our City leaders on behalf of our City!  I promise you future generations will wonder aloud why we did not pick up one or both of these properties in the present era.   8)

I believe a portion of the Shipyards' acreage is underwater and the JEA property is about as far away from downtown as you can get, yet still be considered as being in downtown.  While Springfield's chain of parks may only be 37 acres, they are the closest thing we have to the previously mentioned Boston Commons.   

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/lakelander/BostonCommon.jpg)

The Commons covers 50 acres but most of that land is not flex space for temporary events.  There is a major street that bisects the space, large ponds, baseball fields and heavily wooded areas.  Nevertheless, it has accomodated +100,000 crowds for special events in the past.  The key thing in successful urban park design is that the space be designed for a diverse amount of everyday use, even if the goal is creating land for mega temporary events.  If flex space for temporary mega events is desired, look no further than the Sports District's parking lots and Metropolitan Park. 

Jacksonville Sports District
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You'll find acres and acres of asphalt that sit empty for most of the year.  Before spending millions of taxpayer dollars purchasing expensive waterfront brownfield sites, maybe we can discover a way to turn the entire Sports District into a mini version of Chicago's +300 acre Grant Park?

Soldier Field is served by underground parking and mass transit.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/lakelander/GrantPark-Chicago.jpg)

Our Sports District could benefit from a skyway extension, streetcar line down Bay & Philip Randolph or both.  Having viable mass transit options would reduce the need for surface parking.  Tailgating could still be accomodated in permanent multi-use green space areas.

Flex Space
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/lakelander/GrantPark-Chicago1.jpg)
surface lots could be redeveloped for "flex use".  In Grant Park, these baseball fields join to form space for larger temporary events.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/lakelander/GrantPark-Chicago2.jpg)
Just because there are existing streets does not mean that smaller parcels can not play a role in larger temporary events

Reusing our already owned poorly utilized surface lots in the Sports District and Metropolitan Park allows us public riverfront access without purchasing expensive private property.  Jacksonville's true Central Park could also be tied in via a greenway along Hogans Creek, which empties into the river near the coffee plant.  With coordinated long term planning, paddleboats, gondolas and canoeing opportunities could be made available.

I agree with your post Stjr, your supposed cons about Springfield Park; but I still think it has great potential, and, does everything have to be on the River and directly connected to downtown to be a viable Park that can draw crowds when holding top tier entertainment events?  I don't think so.  I still think we can a) make this park a great signage entertainment destination and number 1 City Park without being on the River and b) make it connect to downtown (our leaders can make that happen that's why they get paid the big bucks) and in my opinion it is connected because downtown is less than 3 blocks away...that's what shuttles, buses, etc. are for and other modes of public transportation that will ensure it is connected to downtown and enhance connectivity.

Heights Unknown

Klutho and Confederate Park may be closer to the Landing than the Shipyards.  However, they seem far away because they have been forgotten.  In addition, FCCJ's surface parking lots and State & Union form a non-pedestrian friendly barrier.

We've allowed so much to encroach on "Springfield Park" that large chunks of it need to be completely reconstructed.

Confederate Park is now an island, as the Water Works cuts it off from the rest of the system.

Lower Hogans Creek, Where we talked about a "Creek Walk" could also be connected when the new Arlington Expressway ramps are built for the Matthews bridge or tunnel.

The New VA clinic may further encroach on the upper portion of the park system, with an ever increasing demand for space and parking as we head toward full VA Medical Center - someday in the future.

All of this will have to be addressed quickly or we will lose what we have to work with.

Also a couple of Transportation Thoughts, Streetcar COULD go right up the park green space on a landscaped trail from Shand's down to Newnan at Orange. While such a line would miss Main Street's famous streetcar Parkway Median's, and businesses, it would certainly become an attraction to weekenders, picnics and party's.

Meanwhile a canoe, party barge or peddle boat trail would not be hard to create along Hogans Creek from Bay Street all the way up to Boulevard (more or less) in the Park. It would involve gently raising the Kluthlo Bridges and moving the railing back for widening and dredging the channel.  

OCKLAWAHA

Some interesting numbers for urban parks:

Fairmount Park, Philadelphia: 9,200 acres total; 4,400 core (by the way, laid out by William Penn in the 1600's, some 200 years before Central Park!)
Golden Gate Park, San Francisco: 1,017 acres
Lincoln Park, Chicago: 1,200 acres
Central Park, NYC: 843 acres
National Mall, Washington, DC: 309 acres
Boston Commons: 50 acres
Springfield Park, Jacksonville: 37 acres!!!!

Why are we acting as if park space downtown is finite?  Why can't we have all the existing park areas mentioned and add new parks at JEA and/or the Shipyards?  These choices don't have to be mutually exclusive.  This satisfaction with the status quo is what keeps Jax from moving forward as a City. 

If Lake is suggesting adding the Shipyards to Metro Park, that would be a great idea.  Much of the land in Boston along the Charles River is public parkland.  Much of the land around San Francisco Bay is the same.  Fairmount Park lines the Schuylkill River in Philly.  Much of the land lining the Potomac in Washington is parkland.  It's a fact that cities prefer parks with waterfront!  We are fortunate to have some of the best waterfront in the world and we have little more than 20 foot +/-  wide and paved riverwalks to show for it.

The cost today of buying these lands will pale to their future value when Jax "grows up" into a truly big city.  Imagine the value of Central Park's land today versus the mid-1800' s when it was founded.  I am sure it was never considered "cheap" but it is now priceless!  Add to it the value it has added to the quality of life in NY and to its economy over those same 200 years. 

Where will Jax be in 25, 50, 100, or 200 years?  Does anybody in this town think in those terms?  It appears not.  Folks, we are talking about a legacy to future generations, not what it means to today or tomorrow.  William Penn had more foresight in the 1600's than Jax does in 2009!  It's time to start thinking outside the box.

By the way, JEA, is a city-owned authority, putting it's land already in the public domain.  It should offer the land as part of its compensation to the City which owns it.  Remember, JEA has a few billion in assets.  Twenty, thirty, or forty million in land is not going to break it, especially if it's amortized over several years.

And, if the City can find tens of millions for a stadium upgrade that might not last more than another 20 or 25 years, why can't it find a lesser amount for land that will last "forever"!

In the end, where there is a will, there is a way.  Let's start practicing it in our community!

A few thoughts:

1. Fairmount Park was not laid out by William Penn....he just laid out the Center City grid...the park was designed in the 1800's in part by Olmstead

2. Most of the parks listed are not in the downtown...for example, Central Park, Golden Gate Park, and Fairmount Park (although a small ribbon come close)

3. Maybe we should be using our Timucuan Preserve area....how would Jax. compare then?

I think one could honestly debate what the boundaries of "downtown" are for most cities.  While planners may have a technical definition, residents and others may have another.  I think the relationship of the properties I am focused on in Jax are functionally located relative to our downtown in much the same way as the examples I cited and I stand by my comparisons.
 
As to William Penn, I obtained my info from a web site I can't relocate at the moment.  I also looked at several sites purporting to list urban/city parks.  If the info wasn't as precise as it could be, I apologize. Here is the official web site for Fairmount Park which makes the connection between William Penn's plans and the beginnings of today's current park:

QuoteCenter Square

In the city grid devised by William Penn and Penn's surveyor, Thomas Holme, Center Square was the largest of the original squares; at ten acres, it was intended as a future site for public buildings.

But early residents, ignoring Penn's well-laid plans, clustered near the Delaware River, and for almost two centuries Center Square was far from central.

In the 18th century, it remained mostly an undeveloped lot, cut into four sections by Broad and High (now Market) Streets. In the late 1790s, after frightening yellow fever epidemics, the city purified the water supply by building the first public water works, with its principal facility at Center Square. Opened in 1801, the Center Square pump house was a handsome neoclassical building designed by Benjamin Latrobe and adorned with William Rush's fountain sculpture Water Nymph and Bittern. The site couldn't accommodate a growing city so within two decades, the Center Square system gave way to new water works at Fairmount. Latrobe's pump house was demolished in 1829.

As the population expanded westward, Center Square, now renamed Penn Square after the city's founder, regained the central position it had occupied in the original plan. As early as 1860, city leaders proposed offices for the site, and in 1870 the voters were asked to choose between Washington Square and Penn Square for the location of "New Public Buildings." Penn Square won handily, and construction began on the mammoth edifice that we know as City Hall....

....Center, Franklin, Logan, Rittenhouse and Washington Squares are also part of Fairmount Park. Add in the Benjamin Franklin Parkway, JFK Plaza (a.k.a. Love Park) and the Isaac D. Levy Park (Race and 17th Streets) and hopefully the parameters or our wonderful Park are becoming a little less confusing.

I must say I am surprised that the posts heretofore don't seem to fully grasp the potential of my point.  If this truly represents the thinking of "progressives" in this City, then Jax has a very steep hill to climb to a national or world city status.

Personally, I grasp the potential of your idea and the Mayor's flex space concept.  At this point, I think there are ways to still make the idea reality even if the Shipyards remained in private hands or if a certain percentage of the JEA site becomes home to infill urban development. 

For example, if the current public owned land in the entire Sports District became parkspace (ex. like something similar to Chicago's Grant Park), you would end up with something very large, impressive and unique.  Anything developed on the Shipyards site, which will include a public pier, park (at the mouth of Hogans Creek) and riverwalk, would end up being a living extension of such a space.

Are we leaving out the old courthouse and corresponding giant parking lot out of the discussion?  How about the clearly misplaced school board building?

Sounds like the result of not having a plan or vision for publicly owned property.

While the city should not be in charge of forcing specific types of uses on private parcels, it would be a good idea to at least have a vision (both short and long term) for its own parcels.  The planning of waterfront parks, urban historic preservation, an expanded convention center, transportation center and the county courthouse are all a huge mess because no one really knows whats going on.  This leads to inaction on the private sector side of things, which leads to a downtown that still empties out at 6pm.  If there was a plan and everyone was on the same page, it would make it easier to get from point A to B,C,D & E.  Until that happens, we'll continue to spend millions running around in circles.

Lake, you have my full agreement.  Where is the master plan?  What is our target?  Where is our vision?  What are our communities priorities?  We just seem to ping pong along making disjointed decisions that don't play off of or feed into each other or create civic efficiencies.  Lavilla, Better Jax, Courthouse, Convention Center, Shipyards, Skyway and other mass transit, parks, historic preservation, city street planning, educational excellence - all are examples of incomplete, disappointed, spotty, reactionary, and/or incompetent executions.

Such projects in Jax abound due to a lack of foresight, planning, perseverance, funding, community support, good 'ol boy networks, etc.  To be a success, we need a reliable PROCESS that addresses these roadblocks and successfully delivers BEST results.  Unfortunately, Jax has, during my lifetime, mostly lacked that charismatic, courageous, disciplined, pure of heart, and visionary leadership that can deliver the goods.  I don't entirely blame our leaders.  I also blame our citizenry that mostly seems to lack, or accept the absence of, the spark, imagination, desire, or drive needed to support and achieve such results.

My hope is that as Jax grows and become more cosmopolitan, we will be cross pollinated by individuals that expect and demand these things - and maybe teach us locals a new thing or two.  Hopefully, they will become part of the solution as opposed to moving away from the disappointments.  This is why PROCESS is so critical.  It provides the portal for interested citizens and their leaders to prioritize, participate and push our community forward.

While discussing the convention center, identifying a Downtown gathering and event mega-site should be discussed and coordinated in concert with such a move.  The two may be able to work in concert with each other.  If the convention center moved to the old courthouse site, then the Shipyards should definitely be considered for this.  It would also play well into an indoor/outdoor convention or event opportunity (like the fire fighters equipment show they once hosted or a boat show, etc.).

While I see the value in the type of space stjr is talking about, you have to keep a few things in perspective.  First, Jax does not have the population nor the population density of any of those big cities that he listed. Second, Jax is not the nation's capital or even a state capital.   Therefore the city is not a site of political protest type gatherings.  Also, Philly and Boston were the among the nation's largest and most political cities when those spaces were there.

Other than the Super Bowl, what activity would need this kind of space?

Third, between the two riverwalks, the Landing courtyard and the space that the Shipyards already has set aside for the public, those areas can accomodate several tens of thousands (Remember 40k at RAM).  Also having that many people in a linear configuration would be better in many ways (igress) than having everyone squeezed into a single 42 acre parcel.

I would suggest building the Emerald necklace that has been proposed for years now (making a green loop around DT with Hogan's Creek and McCoy's Creek joining Springfield/Klutho park). 

Do you really want to forsake millions in property taxes for the once a decade or two event like the Super Bowl?  What would the land be used for in the mean time?  Without it having multiple functions, it could have the potential to be a huge Main Street Pocket Park.

Do Tampa and San Diego and New Orleans have 100-1,000 acres set aside for when they host the SB?   

It may be a sore subject on this board, but the Mayor has identified the Kids Kampus/Met Park area for this purpose

OCKLAWAHA

come on Ock, you know that is not quite true....the Mayor didn't arrive until lunch....and at least my table had already finished their concept.

Now I would agree that we were instructed that Kids Kampus could be moved elsewhere and to not feel constrained by it.

I don't know what he said word for word,,, But it's pretty darn close. My table and the ones I could see hadn't really come up with a drawing before the Mayors plea. Fact is, after his pep talk the entire bunch ran off the cliff like a herd of Lemmings. If the Charette is to be citizen driven with no political dictorials then the Mayor and Council should stay out and let the people speak. I figured he was up to his lovely grass field as soon as we were told the Charette was restricted to within the bounds of the park land. Had we been restricted to the Park land, AND Bay Street, you would have seen Skyway stations, Streetcar tracks and perhaps some historical museum buildings.

OCKLAWAHA

The charette was restricted to just the Kids Kampus/Metropolitan park land?  So I guess there were no suggestions of making flex green space out of the parking lots surrounding the stadium?

That's right Lake, just within the "fence". Then the Mayor comes out with his "we want all this cleared for flex space." The Charette became Charaide.

OCKLAWAHA

again, not totally true....several of us questioned the boundary restriction, making the point that the pedestrian connection across to the stadium was key to the park's gateway....the group at my table actually drew Gator Blvd as a true boulevard w/ the skyway (or streetcar) extended down it....and with the raised expressway potentially demolished! 

Yes your group questioned it and still drew the stadium, I believe all the others stopped at the fence. Not quite true? That is what they told us to do. In fact I was there to try and inject streetcar and Skyway into the mix and I was told we are only dealing with the park.  

OCKLAWAHA

In the end it won't matter what any of us drew or said that day....the firm that is doing the design was hired by the City....so they will do as they are instructed (unless we somehow changed the Mayor's mind)....so chances are that Kids Kampus will be moved and that there will be no discussion of the badnshell, WJCT, the elevated expressway, or skyway/streetcar.

I think this fight on this issue will revolve around saving Friendship Fountain, if the plan attempts to cram Kids Kampus next to MOSH.

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 12, 2009, 06:37:49 PM
In the end it won't matter what any of us drew or said that day....the firm that is doing the design was hired by the City....so they will do as they are instructed (unless we somehow changed the Mayor's mind)....so chances are that Kids Kampus will be moved and that there will be no discussion of the badnshell, WJCT, the elevated expressway, or skyway/streetcar.

On this we agree completely! It's a done deal in Peytons mind, we were just window dressing.  

OCKLAWAHA

WJCT is another whole disaster waiting to happen. As it is they have the only decent sound stage in the City. When we shot the Streetcar vs Skyway shots for "GOOD MORNING AMERICA" on ABC, we were up the street in a very restricted space.

This begs the attention of the Mooneyhans and their partner producers. Jacksonville is lightyears cheaper to film in then Los Angeles, and also much cheaper to film in then Orlando or Miami. We can have the draw for all the studios, but tearing down one sound stage before Mooneyhan or someone else gets another up and running is a guarantee for failure.  

OCKLAWAHA

The Mooneyhan crew appears to have it's eyes on several locations - some spots at the Beaches, a prime spot on the Southside, and two downtown (Shipyards and JEA Site). Initially however, I think they are looking to film in a flexed space (the Prime Osborn as a sound stage) until the time comes to build on one or all of those spots.

I'll try to prime the pump on this thread.  Here's my humble input:

I think speaking solely in the language of quality of life (I agree with that though) falls on too many deaf ears.  I tend to think the entire shipyards property should become a permanent park.  Supporters of that: How strong an economic argument could we add to this?  My two cents: A.) There's too much supply of land downtown, including even on the river (and I'm talking way beyond short-term).  B.) Part of reinvigorating downtown may hinge on concentrating commercial development (think west of the jail on Bay Street). C.) We shouldn't have studies that point solely to one piece of property for the convention center (near the Hyatt) when land supply is abundant.  Drive the price of that land up a bit, make the Hyatt work to get an adjacent convention center.  D.) Yes, quality of life does matter and a river park adds to it.  E.) Near the chamber of commerce, in-between the stadium complex and downtown, that land needs to be fully developed and make an impression on the businessmen who come to Jacksonvile.  A beautiful park can trump even the appearance of a nice private development. F.) Past experience there is not good. G.) Green space, which could serve for ancillary convention center purposes as well as for stadium complex purposes is a terrific asset. You're killing two birds with one stone. H.) A lot of work has already been done and I think there is a realistic possibility to get matching funds to finish the thing (I believe - could be wrong - that Chattanooga won money in 2010 to extend towards, ironically, a stadium).   

I don't know all of the funding sources for different agencies, i.e., funding for the city versus JTA, but I still would like to see transportation get down Bay Street to the stadium complex (I still tend to like a Skyway extension over a new mode of transportation, though that might be unpopular).  To coordinate with transportation is a problem...perhaps there's a thought out there that a private partner might chip in or be keen on seeing improved public transit. Does that make it more feasible?  I need help on that one. 


         

I believe we need to dig back into the past and understand the dynamics of what built and fueled downtown to life before unilaterally coming to the conclusion that this (or any piece of property in the area) should be focused on a single, none integrated use.  With that said, I believe the entire property will be better off being mixed use (keep in mind, I'm not selecting a level of building density or park acreage) in a manner that allows it to become a long term organic economic stimulator that takes full advantage of its riverfront frontage.  Given the river access, those mix of uses should probably include a good amount of maritime related uses.  This mix could be a number of things (ex. public pier, marinas, floating ship museums, marine technology/research, boat repair/rental, etc., seafood market, restaurants, a playing field or two, a small level of shipping, etc.) and we should study the waterfronts of cities with similar histories and features (ex. San Francisco, Seattle, Norfolk, Baltimore, Savannah, Philadelphia, Boston, etc.) to see what works and doesn't.

So while, such a plan should definitely include a ton of public open space, considering the urban environment, we won't get full utilization and vibrancy out of the 44-acre site without some form of a mix of uses being integrated here.  

Thanks for the reply.  Does getting private development down there make it more likely / easier to pursue integration into the transit system (whether a real trolley, Skyway, etc.)? 

Step #1 is for the City Council to commit to doing something about the Bay Street Pier Park.  Doesn't have to be the entire shipyards property, just the pier.

Jdog, you can help us by coming to the Waterways Commission meeting on April 13th at 9 am (City Hall).  Noone and I will be there.  Hopefully others will as well.

We have tried too many home run swings with these things in the past and need to put our energy in smaller pieces.

While I believe the skyway is the best way to connect San Marco/Southbank with downtown - and possibly on to Springfield/Shands, I would prefer a streetcar to the sports complex.  I just think having a streetcar run down the middle of Bay Street would be REALLY cool and would create a better pedestrian environment with lots of activity at street level.  The skyway isn't very good for creating street level activity.

I seriously doubt the city will do anything with that pier without some visual persuasion.  Conceptual plans, renderings and cost estimates need to be developed and presented of an idea of what that space can become.  That style of marketing will help build community support and open the minds of those in charge.

The public pier idea is terrific and I'm totally for it.  Aside from a monetary argument, would there be any other reason (even if bogus) for other people to oppose it?  I haven't seen anything in the forum posts suggesting there could be other reasons presented that might need to be counter-argued in the future.   

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on February 16, 2009, 04:34:22 PM
We need a good mayor and good city leaders,,until then expect the same yr after yr.

This.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 30, 2011, 01:14:19 PM
I seriously doubt the city will do anything with that pier without some visual persuasion.  Conceptual plans, renderings and cost estimates need to be developed and presented of an idea of what that space can become.  That style of marketing will help build community support and open the minds of those in charge.

I completely agree.

I believe that fieldafm is working on some of these.  I haven't seen them yet, but am glad to help out if you need any cad or sketchup work done on them.

Quote from: dougskiles on March 30, 2011, 12:52:47 PM
Step #1 is for the City Council to commit to doing something about the Bay Street Pier Park.  Doesn't have to be the entire shipyards property, just the pier.

Jdog, you can help us by coming to the Waterways Commission meeting on April 13Th at 9 am (City Hall).  Noone and I will be there.  Hopefully others will as well.

We have tried too many home run swings with these things in the past and need to put our energy in smaller pieces.

While I believe the skyway is the best way to connect San Marco/Southbank with downtown - and possibly on to Springfield/Shands, I would prefer a streetcar to the sports complex.  I just think having a streetcar run down the middle of Bay Street would be REALLY cool and would create a better pedestrian environment with lots of activity at street level.  The skyway isn't very good for creating street level activity.

Big plus ++++

jdog, stjr have you guys paddled Hogans Creek yet? If not then let Doug and I share it with you.
Anyone that can make this meeting try and be there. Suzanne Jenkins years ago told me that the real decisions are made at these meetings and not during the city council meetings. She was and is right. She helped a lot with her guidance and suggestions. The pier can happen now. You have to believe it.

In 10 days Waterway commission meeting and then the next day the Board meeting of the St. Johns River Alliance. This is HUGE.

My elected Jacksonville city council representative Don Redman Dist.4 has the legislative authority to introduce legislation that could immediately address the issue of the Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier.

I'll always remember former elected Jacksonville city council representative Suzanne Jenkins Dist.4 introducing legislation 2005-207 on the Old Fuller Warren Bridge and it wasn't even in her district.
That is leadership. It's still a local issue but will escalate to a statewide joke before the next city council and Mayor takes office.

Palms Fish Camp.
Shipyards III

Use the River Now.

 

I will try to make it.

I'm out of pocket for another week or two as I'll be in the Denver area.  If I get into Downtown there (I'll try) I'll get some downtown trail pictures since I could see Hogan's Creek looking more similar to that in Denver than to San Antonio (IMHO). 

Quote from: JeffreyS on April 03, 2011, 07:55:56 AM
I will try to make it.

JeffreyS, That would be great. Would you like to paddle Hogans Creek sometime soon?

Quote from: Jdog on April 03, 2011, 10:22:36 AM
I'm out of pocket for another week or two as I'll be in the Denver area.  If I get into Downtown there (I'll try) I'll get some downtown trail pictures since I could see Hogan's Creek looking more similar to that in Denver than to San Antonio (IMHO). 

jdog, look forward to meeting you when you get back. We can't access the pier yet but we can see it when we come out on the water from Hogans Creek. Can't wait to hear about Denver.