A New Look for East Bay Street?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/467623782_NvcXT-M.jpg)
A proposal to expand the East Bay Street landscaping is making its way through city hall. If implemented, the plan intends to add trees, new sidewalk pavers, and a median in an effort to emulate a street like Las Olas Boulevard in South Florida.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/1002
Isn't the City also working to install special traffic signals to make it easier to "one way" Bay Street to get people to and from the Stadium? I swear I've seen that someplace on this board. How will this work with a narrow street that has a median in the middle? Do the City departments talk to one another?
Oh, and the renderings show Bay Street could be very attractive.
Why take up a lane of traffic for trees and flowers? I guess this means streetcars, trolleys or light rail is out of the question... argh.... ???
This is a waste of time and money. The only thing this does is take away a perfectly good travel lane and further impede development in the future. Downtown does not need money spent on putting trees in the middle of the road to make it better. To better invest this money downtown, how about fix and upgrade the fountatin.
I agree. Waste of money. Put a trolley car down the middle if you want to help Bay St.
I suppose if it creates jobs though... :-[
I wonder what intersections they'll block with the median like they did in Springfield on 8th street. What a waste of money. I agree with the Trolley idea. Introduce some FUNCTIONAL improvements to our streetscapes. Oh well. Another idiotic idea from our fearless leaders. :-\
This is just Main St Pocket Park, part duex.
Since when has everyone been so hell bent on making downtown beautiful before you make it practical? I guess this would make Bay Street a "well landscaped" ghost town...
This is one that has not gone through the city council yet if you have thoughts on this let them know. On many issues MetroJacksonville takes a position is there an official site position on this one? I am in the undecided group.
If the goal is to truly create an entertainmenet district on Bay st, I'm all for it.
As for traffic flow on weekdays and games/special events, yikes. That alone might kill it.
This is not well thought out, it seems. Doesn't the City use Bay St for parades and such for holidays? (e.g, Veteran's Day?) If so, how will the bands, floats, or large groups get down the single-laned road with a median in the middle? Is anyone thinking about anything other than entertainment?
I just don't understand why someone would want to clog up the City with more traffic congestion and a single-laned road which is one of the main arteries through the City. As for the parking, every time someone tries to park, that vehicle is going to cause all the traffic to back up. And what about Fire & Rescue? Are we forgetting the "Great Fire" of Jacksonville? We need to preserve, at least, a two-laned roadway.
And, has anyone mentioned the cost for the roundabout that is supposed to also go in at Laura Street?
Why does Jacksonville always have to emulate or mimick other cities, and to add to that, emulate or mimick other cities without thinking? Someone mentioned streetcars/light rail is now out of the question; but I guess you can always pluck up the trees and median if a year from now you decide to go light rail/streetcars, etc. (but oh what a waste of money!).
Jacksonville needs to find itself and its own identity and quit trying to be like other cities. Jax is a Southern City; a big southern city with a small town feel; so develop areas and developments relative to Jax's history, historic identity, Southern heritage, etc.
I was in Jax this past weekend and nothing"s really changed all that much since I left in 1995 compared to other major Florida cities; but I did like the bus stops in Springfield which reminded me of the porch posts on most of the old homes in and around Jacksonville; now that's using Jax's own history and identity to put a stamp on Jacksonville itself instead of trying to be like a South Florida City, Central Florida City, or other cities around the nation.
Heights Unknown :D
Another problem may arise if they actually intend to tear down the old courthouse.
The new sidewalks would probably be ruined in the demolition process.
The hell with the median and landscaping. Run tracks down that middle lane all the way to A. Phillip Randolph and make it part of the first phase of the downtown streetcars.
Or extend the SkyWay down that same stretch. Either to the side of the street or put the support pylons in that same middle lane.
Either of those is better, IMO, than trees and a median. Just about anywhere downtown, but particularly there.
Quote from: Lunican on February 12, 2009, 09:49:38 AM
Another problem may arise if they actually intend to tear down the old courthouse.
The new sidewalks would probably be ruined in the demolition process.
We'll just have to worry about that when the old courthouse is torn down in the year 3000.
:D :D
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 12, 2009, 07:06:37 AM
Why take up a lane of traffic for trees and flowers? I guess this means streetcars, trolleys or light rail is out of the question... argh.... ???
Quote from: downtownparks on February 12, 2009, 07:49:14 AM
I agree. Waste of money. Put a trolley car down the middle if you want to help Bay St.
Quote from: archiphreak on February 12, 2009, 08:26:20 AM
I wonder what intersections they'll block with the median like they did in Springfield on 8th street. What a waste of money. I agree with the Trolley idea. Introduce some FUNCTIONAL improvements to our streetscapes. Oh well. Another idiotic idea from our fearless leaders. :-\
Quote from: heights unknown on February 12, 2009, 09:49:26 AM
Why does Jacksonville always have to emulate or mimick other cities, and to add to that, emulate or mimick other cities without thinking? Someone mentioned streetcars/light rail is now out of the question; but I guess you can always pluck up the trees and median if a year from now you decide to go light rail/streetcars, etc. (but oh what a waste of money!).
Jacksonville needs to find itself and its own identity and quit trying to be like other cities. Jax is a Southern City; a big southern city with a small town feel; so develop areas and developments relative to Jax's history, historic identity, Southern heritage, etc.
I was in Jax this past weekend and nothing"s really changed all that much since I left in 1995 compared to other major Florida cities; but I did like the bus stops in Springfield which reminded me of the porch posts on most of the old homes in and around Jacksonville; now that's using Jax's own history and identity to put a stamp on Jacksonville itself instead of trying to be like a South Florida City, Central Florida City, or other cities around the nation.
Heights Unknown :D
Quote from: Doctor_K on February 12, 2009, 10:03:47 AM
The hell with the median and landscaping. Run tracks down that middle lane all the way to A. Phillip Randolph and make it part of the first phase of the downtown streetcars.
Or extend the SkyWay down that same stretch. Either to the side of the street or put the support pylons in that same middle lane.
Either of those is better, IMO, than trees and a median. Just about anywhere downtown, but particularly there.
Why don't y'all just tell us how you really feel??
I'd like to address this drawing here:
Alternate I
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20STREETCARS%20TROLLEYS/BAYSTREETFIXED.jpg)
COJ
Alternate II
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/BAYSTREETSKYWAY.jpg)
JTA
Alternate III
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20STREETCARS%20TROLLEYS/BAYSTREETSTREETCAR.jpg)
CITIZENS
Any Questions? OCKLAWAHA
I am really disappointed with most of the comments above....medians are a good idea...they slow down traffic, provide a pedestrian refuge, beautify the street (when maintained), and the trees provide for cleaner air downtown!
As for closing off intersections like in Springfield, that won't happen....this is a downtown grid...now what could happen is restrictions on left turns during peak hours if no turn bay is provided (although the drawing implies there will be bays)...and on game days, you would still have 2 travel lanes in each direction (if you restrict on-street parking).
I'd like to see a streetcar or skyway extension just as much as some of you....but it isn't going to happen overnight....this whole project is $1.5 million, of which the median is probably less than $500k....could we even buy a streetcar for that much (forget about operating costs)?
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 12, 2009, 11:28:07 AM
I am really disappointed with the comments above....medians are a good idea...they slow down traffic, provide a pedestrian refuge, beautify the street (when maintained), and the trees provide for cleaner air downtown!
As for closing off intersections like in Springfield, that won't happen....this is a downtown grid...now what could happen is restrictions on left turns during peak hours if no turn bay is provided (although the drawing implies there will be bays)...and on game days, you would still have 2 travel lanes in each direction (if you restrict on-street parking).
I agree. I think too many streets in our downtown are like 4 lane highways.
I'm with you tufsu1, HALF OF SOMETHING is better then NOTHING AT ALL.
Guatama Buddha - “From its beginning, the world has been filled with a succession of calamities; over and above the unavoidable facts of illness, decrepitude and death.â€
Guatama Buddha - “Following the Noble Path is like entering a dark room with A light in the hand; the darkness will all be cleared away, and the room will be filled with light.â€
OCKLAWAHA
I was about to say that it looks like the City was doing something right for a change but this idea seems to be getting blasted by the group. Maybe I was hasty in my praise.
Let me add a few cents of my own though.
If they block the medians like Main, what a disaster. If not, then an improvement over what they did on Main.
[Side note time. Every time I bike up Main, I think about a way to cut a path through the median at the intersections where there should be one, e.g. 3rd St. I figure some fake uniforms, a fake magnetic sign on a rented van (both made to look like a contracted construction crew), some orange cones, and a rented jackhammer. Think of the scene in Ghostbusters 2 where they drill through the middle of a New York street.]
Do we really want light rail down bay street? To me rail in jax means lines connecting downtown with the suburbs. As for trolleys, aside from events in and around the stadium, are they necessary on bay.
To make it easier for cars to leave the stadium after events. F that. Force those folks to spend their money downtown or even better live here. I call it Fascist Development. I personally am not interested in improving traffic flow through (and out of downtown). If I had the money, I would develop along State and Union to connect downtown with Springfield and I would promise the city that I would bring traffic to a standstill on those streets. I have no sympathy for the suburbanites who would bristle and complain at these suggestions.
You should have moved downtown when the getting was good or be planning a move for when the eco recovers. As for the complaints about the neighbor hoods or school that are commonly heard. Your environment is what you make it.
Ok. That's more than a few cents. I was in a ranting mood.
I can see both side's points. Perhaps instead of a median, bike lanes should be added? Or lay in track for a future streetcar line instead of landscaping? There's a million different directions I can see that would be beneficial but it really comes down to what the long range plan is. Whatever is done, it should be a part of building that picture.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1206/1345069052_c9370fa6ab.jpg?v=0)
(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/ken-lrt-stc-ppc-appr-by-lake-pax_j-smatlak.jpg)
Instead of a landscaped median, add rail for a future line or bike lanes?
(http://www.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/buffered_bike_lane6.jpg)
Quote from: Deuce on February 12, 2009, 11:48:45 AMIf I had the money, I would develop along State and Union to connect downtown with Springfield and I would promise the city that I would bring traffic to a standstill on those streets. I have no sympathy for the suburbanites who would bristle and complain at these suggestions.
You should have moved downtown when the getting was good or be planning a move for when the eco recovers. As for the complaints about the neighbor hoods or school that are commonly heard. Your environment is what you make it.
Ok. That's more than a few cents. I was in a ranting mood.
Long term, through traffic should be encouraged to use MLK Parkway. After all, its a limited access east/west bypass around the urban core.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20STREETCARS%20TROLLEYS/BAYSTREETSCALESTREETCAR.jpg)
Here is a SCALE version of the STREETCAR MONSTER I just posted. Now imagine, those are train tracks down the center of the street - BUT THEY ARE BURIED! On top is a layer of mowed grasses and flowers, on each side slinder trees and shrubs. Single track station would look just like this image, with cross walk protection signals just as on ever other urban rail system in America. Where there are no stations there is plenty of room for a double track route.
We are FINALLY CHEERING FOR OUR OWN IMAGE AND HERITAGE HERE! Remember, Jacksonville Traction was known around the world as the streetcar system in landscaped medians, side of the road or private tracks, all lush in tropical flora. It earned us the nickname "The Most Beautiful Streetcar Line In The World". So anyone that thinks the streetcar or even Skyway idea is a copy of someother place... pull your heads out, while I think overall we have the most beautiful Riverfront Downtown and Skyline on earth, our streets SUCK.
Remember too that Streetcar is MORE THEN TRANSPORTATION it is also a development tool with an incredible track record and an attraction that ORLANDO doesn't have (yet).
OCKLAWAHA
Interesting proposal. This is a way to save money in the long run, when you have a plan in place. Looking at JTA's proposed streetcar routes, it would make financial sense to design Bay Street's median to accomodate a future line.
(http://media.metrojacksonville.com/photos/images/transit/jta_streetcar_study/streetcarrreport090808_page_27.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20STREETCARS%20TROLLEYS/BAYSTREETSCALESTREETCAR.jpg)
Ock, what is your median width shown in this image? I'm wondering how it impacts the width of the through traffic and parallel parking lanes.
This appears to be yet another example of the left hand not knowing or caring what the right hand is doing. It appears that nothing is ever done with any vision of the larger picture. This is an old gripe many have made, but I think that this is yet another perfect example. I'm all for stuff looking pretty, but not if it essentially excludes the most natural and needed potential streetcar route.
What we need here is an earthquake. Then we can have our own "Embarcadero" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Embarcadero_(San_Francisco) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Embarcadero_(San_Francisco)) type renewal. Meh, the leaders here would just level everything and make it a parking lot.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/199/490185511_69820852d8.jpg)
Remember this median is just an idea being floated in the City Council. We shouldn't say the plan is short sighted as it isn't a plan yet. Let your city council members know what you think about this and that they should consider JTA's long term plan for those streets.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 12, 2009, 12:31:26 PM
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Ock, what is your median width shown in this image? I'm wondering how it impacts the width of the through traffic and parallel parking lanes.
Lake, the drawing with the streetcar stop is from Los Angeles, and calls for a 16' streetcar lane, but I added 2' for plantings making for 18'. If I recall that put the walks at 8' on both sides of the street, all rofw was taken from the sidewalks.
My feeling is the huge 18' walk on the right of the Bay Street Drawing (original top of article) is from a long term plan to include the SKYWAY as that is the right of way. If so, I would support the Skyway over the streetcar on Bay, and use the Streetcar to move up town a bit and pull development North of the river. It would still connect the Stadium/Randolph district with Riverside. OCKLAWAHA
Is it clear which side of Bay St will have the 10' sidewalk and which will have the 18' sidewalk?
The huge walk on the right is the north sidewalk and its already completed (phase 1). I don't think it had anything to do with the skyway. It was designed that wide for potential outdoor dining use.
The corridor width is 80', so to accomodate an 18' median, a lane (either parking or traffic) would have to be eliminated or the recently completed north sidewalk would have to be torn up and rebuilt at a reduced width.
18' - Existing sidewalk (North)
18' - Median to accomodate streetcar line with passing sidings and stops
10' - Sidewalk (South)
11' - Westbound Through Lane
11' - Eastbound Through Lane
68' - TOTAL
This leaves you with 12' of space.
8' - parallel parking
4' - bike lane
80' - TOTAL
This is feasible, but then the traffic engineering department would have to abandon their plans to convert Bay into a one way freeway on game days, between the stadium and I-95.
I am all for tree's and flowers... just not sure it is a good idea in a median on Bay Street. The trees in the picture are deciduous. The leaves fall off in the winter leaving the skeletal remains for three months. The leaves need to be cleaned up. Flowers need to be planted AND maintained. They must be watered. Someone mentioned that they provide pedestrian refuge. To me this means trampling the flowers and darting from the bushes into unsuspecting traffic.
Now... if Laura Street were a pedestrian mall... plant all the trees and flowers we can find.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 12, 2009, 11:28:07 AM
I am really disappointed with most of the comments above....medians are a good idea...they slow down traffic, provide a pedestrian refuge, beautify the street (when maintained), and the trees provide for cleaner air downtown!
As for closing off intersections like in Springfield, that won't happen....this is a downtown grid
First, I would like say this is an idea that is being floated around City Hall. Nothing has been introduced to any councils as of yet. Love it or hate it, let your council person know.
I personally feel this just yet another piece meal project. I question how does this project fit within the long range development and transportation plans. Oh wait, it doesn't because we don't have one of either.
Tufsu1, you stated, that medians slow down traffic. Where does that information come from? Can you point me to data that backs up that assumption? I've been searching for months for hard data that proves that medians calm traffic and have yet to find anything.
You also state the median "provides pedestrian refuge". No pedestrian should ever have to take refuge in a median in this or any other city. All traffic should be stopped for however long it takes for an individual to safely cross any and every street. Period.
I'm not against this idea. I'm not for it. I haven't really learned enough about it. But I am for a compete and cohesive long range plan for both downtown development and our transit system. I would love to see most downtown parking removed completely and some streets closed to vehicular traffic (with the exception of trains/trolly's) and made pedestrian only permanently. But is that going to happen? (using your best British accent) Not bloody likely.
As for the new median along Main St.. To the person that stated they want to take a jackhammer to it. You just may see the city/state doing it for you in the near future. Bike Jax has been working with other much better funded organizations for sometime to bring suit against the city and FDOT concerning that median. I'm not at liberty to say which organizations right now. But think about it, are the handicapped and elderly expected to travel 6 additional blocks just to get across the street? A street that traffic is now moving well above the posted speed limits because they no longer need to be concerned with cross traffic, oncoming traffic or pedestrians.
AAPO-FTA SAFETY AND SECURITY GRANTS PROGRAM 2008
The function of access management:Reduce traffic conflict points
(consolidate or remove access
(consolidate or remove access points/driveways, median points/driveways, median openings)
Raise standard for design of access points/driveways access points/driveways
(smoother transition for vehicles entering/exiting roadway)
Increase awareness/response Increase awareness/response time for drivers
(fewer conflict points, greater distance between points)
The results of access management:
Decreasing the number of access points on a roadway will improve its crash rate
Adding medians to a road makes it safer than an undivided road or a it safer than an undivided road or a road with two-way left turn lanes
Adding medians also improves pedestrian safety
Consolidating median openings Consolidating median openings makes it is safer for vehicles to make a U-turn, or a U-turn and a right turn, than to make a direct left turn into a driveway
"If You Meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." The true Buddha lies within. (In essence, that means to seek your own truth. Whatever it is, if it does not ring true deep inside of you, then it isn't true â€" for you.)
Follow those who seek The Truth. Beware of those who find it.
OCKLAWAHA
I am actually quite surprised at the amount of borderlined bitching I'm reading.
I'm all for this, Bay Street needs to be reduced and controlled, not a 3 to 4 lane one-way street right through the heart of downtown. This may lead to eventually turning all of Bay Street into 2 way, which would make much more sense.
Also, what is the big deal of immitating Las Olas BLVD? Apparently, Fort Lauderdale got it right, so apparently something is trying to get going. This needed to be done years ago, and we're slowly evolving.
About the tree selection, that is a conceptual drawing and likely Live Oaks will be used because they are excellent trees to create a canopy for this area.
I also approve this for slowly game-day traffic down, and force people to experience downtown. MLK is perfectly fine, and it is stupid and a pain in the rear to change the traffic flow for just a few hours. That costs man-hours and money.
Three or four lane street??? Its two lanes, and its one way for exactly one block of "e-town".
Im with Lake. A nice green strip with some tracks down the middle would be perfect.
Quote from: Bike Jax on February 12, 2009, 04:19:05 PM
Tufsu1, you stated, that medians slow down traffic. Where does that information come from? Can you point me to data that backs up that assumption? I've been searching for months for hard data that proves that medians calm traffic and have yet to find anything.
try these
http://www.walkable.org/
http://www.vtpi.org/
Some one mentioned Jax should get its own identity. Well dont many other cities have street cars and entertainment districts. Jax will always be unique because of its river, layout, and bridges. There's is nothing wrong with copying and idea as long as it works.
I've heard that Ron Barton of JEDC is hot for the median idea.
I wonder if Barton would be willing to make sure the median idea is designed from the start to accomodate the proposed streetcar line?
"Borderline bitching;" I love it. :)
I'll have to remember that one. (STOP YOUR BODERLINE BITCHING!)
Heights Unknown
Quote from: reednavy on February 12, 2009, 07:46:44 PM
Also, what is the big deal of immitating Las Olas BLVD? Apparently, Fort Lauderdale got it right, so apparently something is trying to get going. This needed to be done years ago, and we're slowly evolving.
There is nothing REALLY wrong "REEDNAVY" about imitating Las Olas; I lived in Fort Lauderdale for 10 years and we could learn from that City; but why don't our leaders, or other powers that be use their noggin and earn their pay and come up with fresh new ideas from Jax itself? Jax can be Jax and not imitate Miami, Fort Lauderdale, or Tampa.
I guess if we have lazy leaders who want to emulate other cities and not have to THINK, then I guess nothing is wrong with imitation.
Heights Unknown
Can we emulate Las Vegas Blvd on Bay Street? Lets forget the Shipyards and put up some casinos on the land. Also, you could get a company to buy the land the courthouse and jail sit on, use the money to finance the new buildings. Anybody with me?
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on February 12, 2009, 11:32:06 PM
Some one mentioned Jax should get its own identity. Well dont many other cities have street cars and entertainment districts. Jax will always be unique because of its river, layout, and bridges. There's is nothing wrong with copying and idea as long as it works.
Yes other cities do have streetcars to their entertainment districts and downtowns, but we still would not be a copy of ANY PLACE.
Please understand that our own Jacksonville Traction Company was once the largest streetcar system in the State of Florida. The JTCO was also World Famous for lush landscaped medians, and covering the tracks with sod. Though it couldn't be proved, we might well have been the city that invented the landscaped streetcar lines.
Other area which stands out is the equipment itself. If we use a heritage streetcar, they could be modeled after our somwhat unique, Stone and Webster Turtleback Cars (with all modern comforts and appliances inside and out). Overnight we would be the ONLY city running a fleet of these large streetcars (Which BTW, ride better then most any other car I can recall).
From the Trout River to the St. Johns, South far into San Marco, San Jose and St. Nicholas, Southwest to Black Point on the river at the current NAS JAX, neighborhoods from Moncrief to Murray Hill were all covered.
This wouldn't be a copy of anybody's streetcar but our own, and lets put on the heat to make sure we keep it JACKSONVILLE and that it salutes Jacksonville Heritage. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: copperfiend on February 13, 2009, 09:13:44 AM
Can we emulate Las Vegas Blvd on Bay Street? Lets forget the Shipyards and put up some casinos on the land. Also, you could get a company to buy the land the courthouse and jail sit on, use the money to finance the new buildings. Anybody with me?
I've been saying that for years! Casinos in downtown Jax would work wonders!
Why would we propose a streetcar line on Bay when the skyway is destined for that corridor? IMO, streetcars should fill in the gaps between skyway stations and connect the historic neighborhoods. If anything, build the southside sidewalk wide enough to accomodate an eventual expansion of the skyway. The landscaped median should not get in the way of that.
Also, why not plant Bay trees on Bay street?
Quote from: Jason on February 13, 2009, 12:14:44 PMI've been saying that for years! Casinos in downtown Jax would work wonders!
It would be an epic battle getting real casinos (not the fake Seminole Hard Rock/Micosukee glorified bingo joints) in FL, let alone downtown Jax. I think FBC might burn the city down if that were to happen.
It would be awesome if The Poker Room were to eye someplace downtown, though. Are they restricted by law to just the current locations? Would Jacksonville not allow them to operate within the county line?
The Kennel Club should move from McDuff downtown as well. It's basically off-track betting anyway. Only OP has live races anymore, right?
I'm pretty sure the Poker Rooms are limited to existing paramutual establishments (ie, dog tracks, hai alai, etc)
And I agree that casinos would be a LONG shot in Jax let alone florida. Still neat to think about.
My post was more tongue in cheek. I would love it but it would never fly in this town. We couldn't even get an ampitheater built downtown.
Quote from: Jason on February 13, 2009, 12:18:23 PM
Also, why not plant Bay trees on Bay street?
Bay trees around here have been dying from some disease. All the one's I have seen are dead, and that is all over the area.
Why not have our cake and eat it too here?
Eliminate the parallel parking. That leaves lots of room for bike and trolley lanes. By the way, don't cars often travel down trolley lanes in many cities? Couldn't they share the same lane?
After football games, make Bay Street one way as is currently done. Two or three lanes, depending on the final configuration, would handle the traffic. 90% of Bay Street is headed for the two lanes going up the Main street bridge after the games so that should be adequate.
As to trees, having just visited Savannah, the live oaks would do the trick. They now have oaks decades old that are turning into magnificent trees lining their downtown streets and making things special and unique. I have never understood why Jax replants its trees downtown after they reach about 6 inches in diameter. If Savannah can make larger trees work, so should we.
I would love to see a big chunk of downtown converted into tree covered pedestrian plaza's with only trolleys and bikes mixed in. Jax would certainly have its signature status. Much like college campuses all over the country have gone back and done. Now that's radical street changes! :)
P.S. I want to reiterate that we should emphasize the trolleys and jettison the Skyway. It is a blight on downtown and not the panacea people keep making it to be. Could you see someone in NYC leaving their Fifth or Park Avenue apartment and walking under a monster concrete Skyway support beam and track shoved up against the face of their building? Really!!!! If you want residential downtown, that thing needs to go. See other MJ boards for my previous postings with more comments on this.
Quote from: stjr on February 13, 2009, 06:37:40 PM
Why not have our cake and eat it too here?
Eliminate the parallel parking. That leaves lots of room for bike and trolley lanes. By the way, don't cars often travel down trolley lanes in many cities? Couldn't they share the same lane?
By placing streetcar lanes in the same lane as auto traffic, you then immediately double to cost per mile of the streetcar. You'll need dual streetcar lines, each running in the same direction as the auto traffic sharing the same lane. With a median, you can have a single track line with occasional passing sidings. Also, removing all parallel parking would be a negative for businesses along Bay, for those traveling into the area by car (Jax is still an auto oriented sprawler). Nevertheless, you can accomodate all within the existing 80' corridor:
18' - existing north sidewalk
8' - existing parallel parking adjacent to north sidewalk
11' - westbound through traffic auto lane
18' - median to accomodate future streetcar line and landscaping
11' - eastbound through traffic auto lane
4' - bike lane adjacent to south sidewalk
10' - new south sidewalk
80' - TOTAL WIDTH
Lake, unless the same trolley runs back and forth, I would think that if you want to do any volume, you would need at least two trolleys, running in opposite directions. This would seem to dictate two tracks. That would actually allow for multiple trolleys in each direction if the track is long enough and the system needs to be scaled for hoped-for success. I would expect that it would be far less than double the price as the contractor is only mobilized once and you only have one operating system. My travels indicate it's common to have dual tracks. I think it would be nice to have a dual LOOP system through the City.
As to parking, I don't recall any business on Bay between Ocean and Main, just the Modis garage, a JEA substation, and the Chamber. Besides, if you have the trolley it should supplant most of the need for parking there.
QuoteLake, unless the same trolley runs back and forth, I would think that if you want to do any volume, you would need at least two trolleys, running in opposite directions. This would seem to dictate two tracks. That would actually allow for multiple trolleys in each direction if the track is long enough and the system needs to be scaled for hoped-for success. I would expect that it would be far less than double the price as the contractor is only mobilized once and you only have one operating system. My travels indicate it's common to have dual tracks. I think it would be nice to have a dual LOOP system through the City.
I'm not crazy about loops in the initial phases, but that's for another post. There are several examples of streetcar systems that have single lines with occassional passing sidings. Its not really that complicated and its no different from regular freight lines. Here are a few examples:
Tacoma Link - Tacoma, WA
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2173-tacomadome4.jpg)
TECO Line Streetcar - Tampa, FL (ex. of a passing siding can be seen in front of Channelside)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/brt/other_cities/tampa/DCP_9442.jpg)
River Rail Streetcar - Little Rock (single line river crossing - streetcars travel in both directions on same line)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454392112_ysB3q-M.jpg)
This is really a great way to stretch out a system early on (when your working with limited funds) instead of building capacity that may not be needed for decades. When the time comes, with an 18' wide median, double track could be added in the future, if necessary. With this scenerio, you can have an impact covering a much larger area early on, as opposed to sinking all of your funds into a train circling downtown (aka. the skyway).
QuoteAs to parking, I don't recall any business on Bay between Ocean and Main, just the Modis garage, a JEA substation, and the Chamber. Besides, if you have the trolley it should supplant most of the need for parking there.
What about Bay between Ocean and Liberty? This area is also a part of the project. Existing businesses like Northstar Substation, the architectural firm a few doors down and Farah's Deli would suffer if all short term parking were eliminated on their blocks.
Although service is suspended until possibly 2018, the Seattle Waterfront Streetcar is another example of a single line with passing sidings.
(http://images.nycsubway.org/i25000/img_25881.jpg)
a passing siding
(http://images.nycsubway.org/i25000/img_25884.jpg)
Lake, here is your single track, albeit apparently on a one way street, with trees all about. This is San Jose, California. Note the apparent absence of street parking.
(http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/San_Jose_Car_1_Second-Santa_Clara_b.JPG)
(http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/San_Jose_Car_First_St_James_b.JPG)
Here is double track elsewhere on the same system:
(http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/San_Jose_Car_1_underpass_b.JPG)
(http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/San_Jose_Car_1_San_Carlos_turnback_b.JPG)
And, here is the trolley going down my pedestrian plaza/park. "Look, Mom! No streets!"
(http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/San_Jose_Car_1_St_James_station_b.JPG)
Lastly, its allllllll aboard!
(http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/San_Jose_Car_1_mall_boarding_b.JPG)
I'm not familiar with the built environment, for all we could know, there could be a huge public parking garage within a block of these photos. However, we all know there are no short term public parking facilities available along East Bay, in the vicinity of the buildings between Ocean and Liberty. Nevertheless, there is on-street parallel parking in the first photo.
(http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/San_Jose_Car_1_Second-Santa_Clara_b.JPG)
I see a truck and a car parked to the left of the trolley line. We can basically have the same thing along Bay, if ONE of two parallel parking lanes are eliminated to help accomodate bike lanes and streetcar along that corridor.
(http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/San_Jose_Car_1_San_Carlos_turnback_b.JPG)
Although this traffic corridor is much wider, it relates to the "track in the median" idea with Bay Street. If the city wants to build a median in Bay, make it wide enough to accomodate rail, like shown in the image above. We can start of with a single line and passing sidings to help stretch the initial system into neighborhoods outside of downtown. When the time comes, the median is still wide enough to add continuous dual track, as shown in the image above.
Stjr, are they running streetcars and light rail on the same track in San Jose?
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2009, 08:52:32 PM
Stjr, are they running streetcars and light rail on the same track in San Jose?
I believe this to be the case. Reading their transit map, it is not absolutely clear. However, I believe from the description I found below on their transit site about the historic trolleys, this must be as the this trolley apparently is only for special times and is classified as a "light rail" option. I have been along these tracks and I recall other, more substantial vehicles than these historic ones. This is backed up by other images I found as shown below.
Also, I am not sure the cars you think are parked aren't just "stop action" in the photo. Searching the web, it appears in other pictures of this system, that these could be travel lanes. I didn't see any parking meters or signs along the curbs either which would indicate the allowance of parking.
I think the main point here is that almost any combination of designs has been used somewhere and that these applications can serve as inspiration and guidance for what might work best for us. We should keep an open mind about all the options until more specific constraints or goals are determined.Quote
Light Rail - Historic Trolley (920)
Turn By Turn Route Directions
VTA will operate Historic Trolley service between San Jose Diridon Transit Center and Civic Center Station from Saturday, November 29, 2008 and continuing through Saturday, December 27, 2008.
Service will run only Saturdays from approximately 2:30 p.m. to 10:00 p.m.. Headways are 60 minutes to coordinate with regular light rail service schedules.
Please note: Although the Historic Trolley Service will run in a loop between San Jose Diridon Station and Civic Center Stations, the trolleys will proceed to the Guadalupe Division for operator break periods after each loop. Riders must exit at Civic Center Station and wait for the next southbound trolley to arrive, or transfer to regular VTA bus or light rail service.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2353/2271111872_61e6476170.jpg?v=0)
(http://i.pbase.com/v3/08/578308/1/50547377.DSC_small_2092.jpg)
Here is an interesting twist: Elevated!(http://www.vta.org/news/images/gt_mall_main.jpg)
"As to trees, having just visited Savannah, the live oaks would do the trick. They now have oaks decades old that are turning into magnificent trees lining their downtown streets and making things special and unique. I have never understood why Jax replants its trees downtown after they reach about 6 inches in diameter. If Savannah can make larger trees work, so should we."
Trees, trees, trees more and more. Hate the habit of jax to plant non native palms around town. Would love to see more live oaks, sweetgums, sycamores. Concentrate on native plants, no more crepe myrtles.
Quote from: stjr on February 13, 2009, 09:35:01 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2009, 08:52:32 PM
Stjr, are they running streetcars and light rail on the same track in San Jose?
I believe this to be the case. Reading their transit map, it is not absolutely clear. However, I believe from the description I found below on their transit site about the historic trolleys, this must be as the this trolley apparently is only for special times and is classified as a "light rail" option. I have been along these tracks and I recall other, more substantial vehicles than these historic ones. This is backed up by other images I found as shown below.
After talking a look at google earth, this is the VTA light rail system. The images above are the downtown transit mall, which is a block wide loop.
(http://bikeblogs.org/sf/files/2008/11/vta_system_map.png)
QuoteAlso, I am not sure the cars you think are parked aren't just "stop action" in the photo. Searching the web, it appears in other pictures of this system, that these could be travel lanes. I didn't see any parking meters or signs along the curbs either which would indicate the allowance of parking.
You are correct and I was wrong. There is no parallel parking along transit mall.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/sanjose7.jpg)
However, there are a series of pretty large surface parking lots. While the situation is different from our Bay Street, they've done a great job of shielding surface parking with heavy landscaping.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/sanjose6.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/sanjose5.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/sanjose4.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/sanjose3.jpg)
Quote I think the main point here is that almost any combination of designs has been used somewhere and that these applications can serve as inspiration and guidance for what might work best for us. We should keep an open mind about all the options until more specific constraints or goals are determined.
I agree. However, at this point some goals and specific constraints have already been exposed. They include JTA's plan to one day run streetcars down Bay to the stadium area, JEDC's desire for medians on Bay and that we don't have the money in hand to construct an extensive rail system overnight.
Knowing this, now is the time to properly plan to help reduce the overall costs on something we clearly don't have the money for and aren't close to funding. A couple of ways to clearly save money are:
1. Reduce the amount of track necessary in a potential starter rail corridor.
Single, with passing sidings accomplishes the same thing initially as 100% double tracking. The major difference is one is cheaper, thus more affordable, making it more realistic to get something off the ground in the short term.
2. Integrate planning.
If JEDC wants to tear up the street for medians, at least make sure the streetscape plans are designed to easily accomodate rail, in the present or future. If placed in the median (if designed to be wide enough), it would reduce the cost of the rail project because it would not involve ripping up two miles of newly laid asphalt to lay in track, a couple of years later. In the event, we wanted to upgrade the line to light rail standards, track on it's own ROW (the median) would be more efficient than track shared with vehicular traffic.
3. Work with existing environment.
Transit malls can be great in the proper context. From being involved in the past with a development project on East Bay, all those little brick commercial buildings along that stretch need all the parallel parking they can get. In the future this may change, depending on what eventually happens with the courthouse property. With the future of the street's south side being an unknown, at least a row of parallel parking should remain in the short term. If any thing, all of this highlights the negative side of not having a coordinated long term vision in place. Because of this, its twice as hard to build synergy in the core with a mix of new and existing development.
Bay Street is the WRONG street for this idea, I would say but this on Main Street from the bridge all the way down to Springfield.....Invest in more Lounges, clubs, bars & places to eat. Send the Skyway where it NEEDS to go!!!..... To the Sports Complex, Bay Street does not need to lose lanes. *shaking head* what are they doing??? Get the Skyway to the Sport Complex. Pretty Flowers and trees are for Main Street!
Quote from: stjr on February 13, 2009, 06:37:40 PM
P.S. I want to reiterate that we should emphasize the trolleys and jettison the Skyway. It is a blight on downtown and not the panacea people keep making it to be. Could you see someone in NYC leaving their Fifth or Park Avenue apartment and walking under a monster concrete Skyway support beam and track shoved up against the face of their building? Really!!!! If you want residential downtown, that thing needs to go. See other MJ boards for my previous postings with more comments on this.
Nope!! Jax ain't New York City...the Skyway belongs to Jacksonville. It is not a blight to me. I like how it looks all futuristic and stuff. It just needs to to connect the surrounding neighborhoods.
I like the skyway but I like streetcars more. I want a mix of streetcar and skyway downtown.
I'm sure there is no accommodation for future rail/streetcar. It seems not to be part of JEDC's bag of tricks.
I suspect this project is using monies from the city's Tree Fund. It's one of the few places anywhere that might work as a funding source.
It would be better to compress the street and create angled parking to support E. Bay's restaurants, entertainment, and businesses - and adding trees in parking islands and streetscape would create a better pedestrian and streetscape experience.
But
Looks like the priority is to expedite game day traffic (15 times each year) instead of the priority to support local business (350 days each year). That's why over 2-million bucks are committed to invest in reversable lanes. Imagine the streetscape or streetcar improvements that money would buy.
Is one of the reasons for the near to nothing plans for light rail.. noise? I've recently watched a few movies with rail cars, and noticed noise. I'm sure most of the routes would take it through business areas, but it's made me wonder. I honestly don't think it would be any louder than vehicles, but what would other people think?
Streetcar and light rail systems don't make nearly as much noise as cars, trucks and buses.
(http://cincystreetcar.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/streetcar_sidewalk-cafe.jpg?w=510&h=333)
http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/streetcar-improve-the-urban-environment/
QuoteLRT is quiet
Light rail vehicles produce less noise than diesel buses and much less noise than the equivalent volume of automobile traffic. Smooth, welded rails and vibration absorbing fasteners eliminate much of the noise we associate with rail travel.
http://www.ggw.org/rrtc/learn/10reasons.htm
That's a relief, I honestly just had no idea if it was quieter or as noisy as vehicles. I have hope for light rail coming to Jacksonville in the future, just not under Hate'n Peyton's rule.
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 14, 2009, 09:12:38 AM
I like the skyway but I like streetcars more. I want a mix of streetcar and skyway downtown.
Exactly, streetcars should co-exist with the skyway, however, the skyway should be completed and become the major mover downtown. Let the streetcars fill in the gaps and connect the historic neighborhoods to the core.
If anyone saw it - JTA CEO Mike Blaylock said he wants to see streetcars replace the trolleys downtown. It was on the latest Making Moves TV show. It was after the segment talking about the success of Portland's streetcar system in bringing $2.3 B in development w/in 3 blocks of the streetcar line. The questions is - will Jacksonville fund a streetcar system?
What is faster, streetcar or skyway train? There is no chance for a vehicle to crash into a skyway train, do streetcars get in crashes with regular vehicles often?
There is a definite learning curve... When I lived in San Jose and VTA was being constructed there were accidents every day until drivers learned to obey the signs and rules of the road when sharing the same space as streetcars... :)
Quote from: exnewsman on February 16, 2009, 05:57:13 PM
If anyone saw it - JTA CEO Mike Blaylock said he wants to see streetcars replace the trolleys downtown. It was on the latest Making Moves TV show. It was after the segment talking about the success of Portland's streetcar system in bringing $2.3 B in development w/in 3 blocks of the streetcar line. The questions is - will Jacksonville fund a streetcar system?
The question is, is JTA and the city ready to put their money where their mouth is at? We don't need to go through federal hoola hoops or wait for an Obama handout. We already have money set aside for rapid mass transit.
Find a way to spend less on ROW acquisition (streetcars run on public ROW) to reduce needed land acquisition costs and use the BJP money already in place to start construction on an initial rail corridor. We can then use that initial completed phase as proof and the local investment to leverage federal funds needed to create an extensive regional network.
So now streetcar is a more promising first step than commuter rail?
I don't think its an either or situation. You could probably fund initial segments for both (we own the S-Line too) at the same time, if desired. Nevertheless, first there has to be a commitment to actually do something. At this point, that has not occurred.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_R2yHiPgsajA/SUQPHnOOpoI/AAAAAAAAAg0/JV_MIsFmqKU/s400/whoa+bundy.jpg)
Dump truck v streetcar, Streetcar wins.
Streetcars DO get into tangles with autos and trucks on a regular basis when NEW. That tends to fade if a city is smart enough to use the medians (subject of this thread) or some other form of exclusive right of way. The number one culprits are those that make sudden turns, in front of and across the path of the streetcar.
People turning left will come out of a turn lane and not even check the mirror for a streetcar quickly approaching from behind and farther left. Suddenly they make the turn and SMACK. Dallas has come up with a great solution with a series of mini-gates, and large square signs in front of the turn lanes. These are digital signs with a warning bell, they are placed where you would normally see a no U turn sign. The digital sign goes wild if a streetcar approaches. You can't miss it. Dozens of these type of accidents nation wide but the number of LRT miles is pretty high for so few accidents.
(http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2005/11/26/2002649249.jpg)
hardly immune to accidents
Skyways or monorails tend to drop things on people, usually pedestrians walking on downtown sidewalks, suddenly a full size bus or truck tire just drops on their heads. (2 cases that I know of) but total monorail mileage is microscopic next to light rail.
Is the streetcar or skyway or Commuter Rail a better start? It's sort of like starting a good baseball team but leaving out the catcher and shortstop. Pick any two and leave them out, you'll have a disaster on your hands.
FIRST THING OUT OF THE MOUTHS OF CONSULTANTS GANNET FLEMMING WAS: "Your city is a perfect match for Commuter Rail, because you already have the start of an inner city distribution system in place. Extend the Skyway to a few more destinations and build Light Rail to the rest and no other city in the East could touch what you folks ALREADY HAVE!" Lakelander was there, he's my witness. WE NEED ALL THREE. Start building and don't look back. Get the Skyway moving again with the stimulus, and get the streetcar moving with local funding. Get the Convention Center out of the way and build a new and larger center down on the river - WITH HOTELS. Tie in Amtrak, Greyhound and attract a Trailways Interurban Bus operator, and we WOULD BE untouchable.
OCKLAWAHA
Well, if COJ said here's $100 million JTA, I am sure the agency would have no problem spending it to build streetcar or some sort of hybrid system for the S-Line. Where is the leadserhip saying to do that????? JTA can't just make money magically appear.
Well we have $100 million in BJP funds set aside for rapid mass transit ROW. Maybe its time to put ice on spending it for BRT related projects and appeal to the council to change the terms on what's left of it for rail implementation (ROW, construction and O&M) only?
This would be an easy go if we could get the public support of JTA for such an endeavor. I can't imagine anyone on the council being against implementing something that would stimulate economic development immediately.
Me either.
Everyone look at the Dublin, Ireland tour post and the idea that Lake had about the creative way they developed the medians there. What a wonderful idea.
Isn't the Mayor pushing to take the JTA's $100 million for other projects in BJP (roads over budget and court house) and port area projects? Pushing to change those funds for implementing transit would go square against charming Johnny's efforts to use it for his projects. Who do you think has more clout with Council (see the Waste Management deal that is about to pass, for a comparison).
You never know if you don't fight. I'm really suprised JTA hasn't been more vocal about the mayor wanting to raid transit money for the courthouse (because that is were its really going). Unfortunately, Jax has turned into a passive community that sits on its back and continues to take whatever the good ole boys dish out.
Quote from: GatorShane on February 17, 2009, 06:36:49 PM
Everyone look at the Dublin, Ireland tour post and the idea that Lake had about the creative way they developed the medians there. What a wonderful idea.
Here is the image:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/dublin/InsetLights.jpg)
We tend to think that medians have to be heavily landscaped. This may be great for Blanding or Beach Blvd., but not for urban core areas because they limit walkability. So instead of making them only provide pleasant views for automobile drivers, make them useful for pedestrians, cycling and rail.
Quote• JaxPride is officially on the record via resolution as opposed to the construction of seven mast arm traffic signals as part of the current Bay Street Town Center project. Its president, Oliver Barakat â€" a commercial real estate broker with CB Richard Ellis â€" has asked the City to “promptly cease this project†because the mast arms are “not an improvement, but a detraction of the pedestrian-scaled improvements made by the City to increase pedestrian attraction and activity.â€
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php
I was down that way the other day - the City is moving ahead, and those poles are pretty big. I wonder if the ones in front of the Court House and Court House Annex will affect their usefulness for conversion to something else - the bases were put beyond the sidewalk in the "lawn".
I agree with all that has been said in this post regarding Bay Street, and I understand what is either beginning to happen or is happening on Bay Street relative to entertainment, bars, restaurants, etc...i.e., it appears that Bay Street is trying to become, or the City is prodding it to become downtown's entertainment destination sans "The Landing."
This is fine and dandy, but you know what? I think it would have been more appropriate a decade or more ago, when LaVilla sat with empty grass lots, to make Lavilla downtown's entertainment district; I know, it's not on the River, it's a bit displaced from the central core, and it would take great effort to travel to LaVilla to get drunk; well, with all the talk about light rail, street cars, extending the skyway, and iinstigating other modes of transportation downtown and in the central core and beyond, I am sure someone, hopefully our powers that be in City Hall, with all of the moula they make could have come up with innovative ways of solving the transportation problem.
Though LaVilla is no longer a black neighborhood (for the most part), it had a rich history of entertainment, bars, movie theaters, restaurants, etc., and I'm sure if someone had thought of that theme for LaVilla, and LaVilla had progressed into downtown's entertainment district, it would have sparked other types of growth in and around that area.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 11, 2009, 07:55:47 AM
I was down that way the other day - the City is moving ahead, and those poles are pretty big.
From what I can see, no poles have been installed
There's at least one upright one down near the stadium, on the east side - it doesn't have the part that sticks out over the road yet. Might be more than one.
Quote from: heights unknown on July 11, 2009, 10:40:32 AM
I agree with all that has been said in this post regarding Bay Street, and I understand what is either beginning to happen or is happening on Bay Street relative to entertainment, bars, restaurants, etc...i.e., it appears that Bay Street is trying to become, or the City is prodding it to become downtown's entertainment destination sans "The Landing."
This is fine and dandy, but you know what? I think it would have been more appropriate a decade or more ago, when LaVilla sat with empty grass lots, to make Lavilla downtown's entertainment district; I know, it's not on the River, it's a bit displaced from the central core, and it would take great effort to travel to LaVilla to get drunk; well, with all the talk about light rail, street cars, extending the skyway, and iinstigating other modes of transportation downtown and in the central core and beyond, I am sure someone, hopefully our powers that be in City Hall, with all of the moula they make could have come up with innovative ways of solving the transportation problem.
Though LaVilla is no longer a black neighborhood (for the most part), it had a rich history of entertainment, bars, movie theaters, restaurants, etc., and I'm sure if someone had thought of that theme for LaVilla, and LaVilla had progressed into downtown's entertainment district, it would have sparked other types of growth in and around that area.
Heights Unknown
From what I've seen of the River City Renaissance plans, there was
thought given to this, but unfortunately destruction won out over taking advantage of the remaining fabric and venues in LaVilla (except for the Ritz).
I would badly like to see Genovar's Hall restored as a venue with souvenirs and performances recognizing its historical importance. Of all the "If Jacksonville had vision..." ideas mentioned on this site, that one is my favorite.
Any word on any sort of progress with Genovar's? And has anything been mentioned lately about future uses for Old Stanton?
I am beginning to think that the "good ole boy" network had much to do with LaVilla not becoming an entertainment district; not to bring up race because I am not a racist, prejuidice, or into drama, but let's face it, LaVilla was a black neighborhood and I am sure the old stigma and feelings in the good ole boy network relative to that issue drew up negative thoughts and sentiments in that regard.
This is why we (Jacksonville) need fresh, vigorous, and well focused leaders with an international, national and worldly "feel" in Jacksonville who are not a part of that network to lead and direct this City into the prosperous and successful city that it wants to be, yearns to be, and should be.
Heights Unknown