Ock, you better grab your Kleenex box! You are not going to like this.....!
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-01-31/story/commuter_rail%E2%80%99s_future_off_the_tracks_in_jacksonville
More evidence that Jax leadership lacks proper visioning skills. This list is getting awfully long!
Ock probably knows about this as he was quoted twice in the article. This is what we knew was going on at least it is being reported.
Peyton and the city council(most anyway) incompetence in action.
Right y'all, as usual, I'm in the middle of the whole mess as we go down in flames for the 400Th time in 30 years.
If Peyton or Crist thinks I'm done nipping at their heals, unless God see's otherwise, I'll be back in the saddle next week. 401 is a charm.
So my fellow Rebels and Transplants, grab your flag and a rock, 'cause this fight is going into the trenches. Remember Missionary Ridge, The Bloody Angle and Olustee... You Federals, and State minions, ain't seen nothin' yet! "Your army might of whooped my army, but you ain't whooped ME yet...
Mica is a friend of mine and let's just say, it ain't over - till it's over.
(nice find stjr, I knew it was running but hadn't seen it. I'll also be on the JTA TV show on the ? 5-8 ?? of Feb.)
So take heart my friends.
OCKLAWAHA
I think it is a positive sign to see the TU reporting national officials calling out Peyton and the local sad sacks on the issue. Lord knows Peyton tries to hide. Hows that for glass half full.
No doubt Peyton and company will now hunker down in the Duval Fox Hole (it has a basement) and remain motionless for a few days. His plan to steal funds promised to JTA for operations and to steal other funds for transit from the BJP will lay low, or be in the hands of the council.
The theory is, if you don't move, a rattle snake can't bite you. Try it sometime, I wanna watch.
OCKLAWAHA
I guess I missed something....
The article correctly states that Florida does not have any rail projects "shovel ready". That's because the STATE was not particularly interested in rail for quite some time. But they have spent the last ten years upgrading Tri-Rail in south Florida and doing the necessary studies for commuter rail in Orlando. And now the Tampa Bay area is getting serious about rail (TBARTA) and JTA is conducting a comprehensive feasibility stuidy here.
The article also quotes Mayor Peyton as saying that the City "is looking seriously at commuter rail and hopes to move forward with a plan in the next few years".
To me, the blame does not go to the City or JTA....but to Jeb Bush for purposefully trying to sabotage high speed rail...and FDOT for dragging its feet all these years!
I agree tufsu, there is plenty of blame to go around at both the state and local level. However, Peyton is full of crap. I have never once heard him even mention commuter rail as a serious consideration for Jacksonville. The next few years? Yeah right! We'll be lucky, or in my mind unlucky, if the damn courthouse is even started by then. At least we'll have an expensive place to get rid of our garbage and a few more lanes to our highways. I'm sorry, but there is no support in my house for the man. He needs to go!
Where has it been defined that shovel ready equates to being ready to go to construction in 60 - 90 days? Why aren't all communities using Florida's/Jacksonville's definition of "shovel ready."
Also, haven't all the necessary studies for Amtrak on the FEC corridor been completed? I thought funding was the only issue stopping that project from moving forward a couple of years ago.
I also agree with those who have stated that we're giving lip service instead of aggressively moving forward with any realistic rail proposals. Even if plans are not "shovel ready" shifting money currently set aside for mass transit does not suggest that our local leaders have placed a high priority on rail. I hope to see more articles like this published. Leaders need to be called out on this issue. Heavy criticism can help wake a few lost souls up.
Frustrating. We have a major political force(whose party now controls the White House and both houses of congress) in Corrine Brown who is on the transportation finance committee and our mayor couldnt submit a bid to get any of the 1.1 billion dollars allocated for transportation projects. I am at a loss for words.
I bet there are at least some consultants in transportation, engineering, and land acquisition that are "shovel ready" in this economy. Getting them in gear would be a stimulus and move us forward.
And that's from a consultant cynic, Ock! 8) . Being a realist, they ain't gonna do nothin' without them so let's at least light the fuse.
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 31, 2009, 05:27:41 PM
I think it is a positive sign to see the TU reporting national officials calling out Peyton and the local sad sacks on the issue. Lord knows Peyton tries to hide. Hows that for glass half full.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Mr. Hannan's writing style seems to have done a 180 since his previous articles about rail feasibility.
article "updated" this morning: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-02-01/story/peyton_jacksonville_could_be_rail_center
Basically the same thing, but with new headings and a new title: "Peyton: Jacksonville could be rail center
FIRST COAST TOUTED Peyton says rail service could boost Jacksonville, but actions cast doubt on that notion."
The text of HR 1 (http://readthestimulus.org/index.php?doc=hr1_text_0123&page=1) - the House version of the Stimulus Bill - is online. [NOTE: Choose the PDF option on that page, the search function on the web page is lousy] The section about "Fixed guideway transit" begins on page 214, line 16. There's $2 Billion available nation-wide,
BUT Quotethe deadline for grantees to enter into obligations to make use of not less than 50 percent of the funds awarded shall be 180 days after apportionment
JTA only has a feasibility study - no way they could spend any money for actual "stuff" in less than half a year. They haven't completed any environmental work, and if they need any land, there's no way they could buy it in 6 months following the Fed rules.
Of course, the Senate may change it completely, then it would have to go to conference committee.
There's another section of HR 1 that talks about Amtrak, on page 211 - $300 Million to provide capital assistance for intercity rail service, and another $800 Million (p. 212) to repair and refurbish existing tracks. Both have the 180 day limit, and both of the Amtrak provisions prohibit use for operating costs.
Other transportation money - for highways- must be under contract in 120 days (p. 209, section begins on 207).
Quote from: GatorShane on February 01, 2009, 12:49:42 AM
Frustrating. We have a major political force(whose party now controls the White House and both houses of congress) in Corrine Brown who is on the transportation finance committee and our mayor couldnt submit a bid to get any of the 1.1 billion dollars allocated for transportation projects. I am at a loss for words.
wrong...the Mayor's proposal did include $ for local roads as well as transit
It just raids dedicated transit money for isolated local road and potentially courthouse improvements. That's the largest problem I see with the Mayor's plan. Leave the mass transit money alone.
It is a shell game for the Mayor and the shell that he talks about with transit studies never has the ball under it.
I just received this email from the Jacksonville Transit blog. I decided to post it here to see what type of feedback it generates.
Quote(http://www.riveroaksapartments.org/BayHogan.jpg)
How much more "Shovel Ready" could you want then this unfinished extension?
Sometimes one has to wonder at the completely blind eyes that lead in the State of Florida, Tallahassee, Florida Department of Transportation, City of Jacksonville and our own State Agency, The Jacksonville Transit Authority. At a time when the mayor is attempting to steal the dedicated rapid transit funds from JTA, as well as pull a sleight of hand with JTA's permanent funding, promising more and delivering less, you would think that JTA and FDOT would be in Washington, lobbying for the many great projects on the drawing boards.
Mayor Peyton has gone on record in the Florida Times Union newspaper with a very positive diatribe on rail, which, when boiled down lacks any substance what-so-ever. Outside of his family's Oil and Concrete business, the man seems helpless to grasp the most elementary concepts of transportation. He promises, to promise, to someday consider rapid transit or rail.
Peyton: Jacksonville could be rail center
Mayor says rail service could boost Jacksonville, but actions cast doubt on that notion.
By Larry Hannan
Story updated at 5:12 AM on Sunday, Feb. 1, 2009
A glorious future for train travel in Jacksonville sounded feasible...
Mayor John Peyton said with three interstate highways and three major railroad lines - CSX, FEC and Norfolk Southern - the Jacksonville area is poised to become a logistics center for rail in the Southeast. City Council President Ronnie Fussell said Jacksonville has been a key hub for rail since the 19Th century and would remain a major factor in the 21st.
But supporters of commuter rail, including two local members of Congress, are having trouble seeing that bright future. They see a city and state that aren't serious about passenger rail.
That frustration has intensified because of the stimulus package now working its way through Congress. A stimulus bill approved by the House of Representatives last week included $1.1 billion for rail, and the Senate is expected to vote on a stimulus package this week.
But none of the stimulus projects for which Jacksonville and the Florida Department of Transportation have requested funding includes a single rail project, essentially guaranteeing none of the money will be allocated for rail.
"The lack of leadership when it comes to transportation is stunning," said Robert Mann, a retired transportation consultant and longtime supporter of commuter rail in Jacksonville.
The Jacksonville Transportation Authority is now conducting a study into the feasibility of having commuter rail service from the suburbs into downtown Jacksonville. But the actions of city leaders suggest they are only giving lip service to rail, Mann said.
Brad Ashwell of the Florida Public Interest Research Group, a consumer watchdog organization in Tallahassee, said the state hasn't shown any interest in rail, and its actions with the stimulus show it doesn't take rail seriously.
State Transportation Department spokesman Dick Kane said there were no rail projects that are "shovel ready" within the next 60 to 90 days. The Obama administration wanted projects that are ready to go immediately.
Most state rail projects need to acquire environmental permits and purchase land. And it's not clear if the Obama administration wants to pay for planning instead of actual construction, said David Lee, administrator of policy planning for the Florida Department of Transportation.
Peyton admitted no rail projects are ready for construction. He insisted the city is looking seriously at commuter rail and hopes to move forward with a plan in the next few years.
U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Fla., blames the state government for the lack of rail projects.
An amendment to the Florida Constitution for high-speed rail was approved by voters in 2000, but it was later repealed, when then-Gov. Jeb Bush warned the amendment would cost taxpayers billions of dollars.
Florida is behind the times on rail, and supporters of train travel should express displeasure to state officials, Brown said.
She wanted $5 billion allocated to rail and is frustrated with the House stimulus bill, even though she voted for it.
U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., also is unhappy with the House bill. Like every other Republican in the House, Mica voted against it and hopes the Senate can improve on what the House did.
But it's difficult to push for local projects when Florida and Jacksonville don't ask for anything, Mica conceded.
Mica hopes to get another crack at rail later this year when Congress considers a new highway bill.
We currently have BRT, Commuter Rail and Streetcar plans in some form of completed study, or even advanced studies. We have the Skyway - our downtown Monorail system which we have allowed embarrassment and some mystical inferiority complex trickle down from network news story's to nip the system in the bud, dead in it's tracks.
So what are we doing with the huge stimulus package? How much of our Mass Transit set-aside from the Better Jacksonville Plan will actually reach mass transit? How much funding will we then provide for O&M costs on the finished systems? What challenges are facing our city today?
What are we doing at the City of State levels? Sadly, as Larry points out in the paper nothing but lip service. Don't look for any California, North Carolina, Oregon-Washington, Illinois type train service improvements with these bumbling, old school auto lovers.
Couldn't we use our Mass Transit set-aside money to self finance something like a streetcar system, or Skyway, going after stimulus grants in a later phase? We could but Peyton wants to reduce the transit set-aside to zero, invest some of the money in Port Access Roads and the rest through a long and convoluted trail will end up in that giant hole downtown we call "The Courthouse Site."*(see note below) So in short, no we probably won't see a cent of the money we voted for transit actually go to transit, even though with smoke and mirrors, we'll be told it does.
Equally sad, so determined to leave a legacy project from his fruitless administration of the City, Peyton even plans to betray the taxpayers and remove the dedicated O&M money from JTA, putting the bus system on a month to month retail sales tax subsidy. This is a subsidy that will look very much like the first 35 years of Amtrak, never predictable, never enough, impossible to plan for or with.
Yet they are all whining that "We don't have shovel ready plans... Obama wants shovel ready plans you know..."
"WE DON'T HAVE SHOVEL READY PLANS!"
CITIZENS OF JACKSONVILLE - THAT IS A PATENT LIE!
We have several projects that have been so thoroughly planned that a local group from the United Daughters of the Confederacy, and the Children's choir from the 1St A.M.E. church downtown could probably build them with a few dollars.
SKYWAY: The Skyway is already to go to the stadium, already engineered, already designed, right-of-way in City hands. There are similar plans to the Riverside-Blue Cross-Fidelity buildings, including exclusive right-of-way on Riverside Avenue. Further, the engineering and studies to take it north to Shand's Hospital or South toward San Marco were also underway at one time, though I know Shand's is pretty complete, the San Marco line is an unknown.
BRT: We are very close to having everything needed to tackle the Northwest BRT line up Boulevard to Gateway Mall and beyond to the I-295 belt-way.
"S" LINE: Needed for Commuter Rail, Light Rail and neutral access by rail freight carriers, this former Seaboard Mainline right-of-way continues to get a new bicycle trail on top of it courtesy of the Peyton Administrations Parks and Recreation Department. Recent estimates by railroad contractors place the cost of replacing that line at no more the $10 Million per mile.
(http://www.american-rails-forums.com/AR%20Images/Fallen%20Flags/FEC_PC2.jpg)
FLORIDA EAST COAST REGIONAL PASSENGER TRAINS: Yes, we should be the hub of rail passenger service to Florida. Our depot rivals the great stations in Los Angeles, or Washington, DC.. The state planned a major rail expansion back in the 1980's through the mid 1990's by bringing back the passenger train to the FEC. The studies consumed some $50 Million Dollars and the state even committed to capacity expansion. This happened right when Amtrak was prevented by the Bush Administration from adding any more trains or routes. So here we sit, with a 10 year old plan in our lap, trains curving through our west side neighborhoods, and no one is fighting to get them aimed south on The Speedway to America's Playground.
SUNSET LIMITED: Another project, this route was already funded, up and running, fully functional when hurricane Katrina pulled the plug on the many Gulf Coast Bridges. That is a problem fixed years ago and still no trains grace the line that we Floridians spent so many millions to upgrade for CSX. Tell me this isn't shovel ready.
So there you have it:
SKYWAY
BRT
AMTRAK REGIONAL
And not a chirp in a carload from our political arena. A slumbering giant, Jacksonville, sleeps while cities all around us jump for the golden ring of transportation excellence. Oh to be a "Charlotte", "Phoenix" or "Portland" just for a day, gentle reader, this is such blatant neglect, I'd even settle for being "Kenosha" or "Fort Smith".
*NOTE: (For out of town readers, this is another of "Peyton's Perils," as the new County Courthouse was fully funded under that BJP plan. Our fully funded Courthouse ran into Peyton's procrastinating mis-management team, lots were purchased, buildings leveled and studies started, then started again, then again, and now 6+ years later, we have a $200 Million dollar hole in the city).
Posted By Bob to JACKSONVILLE TRANSIT at 2/01/2009 11:52:00 PM
http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/2009/02/jacksonville-and-florida-not-shovel.html
I would be very surprised if the skyway extension to the stadium is truly shovel-ready....fully designed and ROW in hand? and no updated engineering study would be needed?
This comes from knowing that roadway studies and designs are revisited if they've sat on the shelf for 5 or 10 years, since the surrounding conditions may have changed.
QuoteState Transportation Department spokesman Dick Kane said there were no rail projects that are "shovel ready" within the next 60 to 90 days. The Obama administration wanted projects that are ready to go immediately.
Most state rail projects need to acquire environmental permits and purchase land. And it's not clear if the Obama administration wants to pay for planning instead of actual construction, said David Lee, administrator of policy planning for the Florida Department of Transportation.
I wonder if anyone from FDOT has asked the question? After all, planners need work too. ;D Looking at all the companies laying off workers, most are not in the construction business.
There is a missing piece to all this. Who funds the OPERATIONS after all this is built and, are we building the right thing, or just something to take the Feds money as we did with our current boondoggle, the existing Skyway?
I think we should put all our eggs in the "metro-rail" project and get going. This is the most ambitious project and common sense (remember that?) says it will make the biggest impact long term on the region. BRT and the Skyway raise lots of questions as to their efficacy that I don't hear about with rail. We need to think BIG here.
As stated previously, the consultants are always shovel ready. ANY phase of this project funded is a big step forward. Let's get it going while the iron is hot.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 02, 2009, 10:36:23 AM
After all, planners need work too. ;D Looking at all the companies laying off workers, most are not in the construction business.
Agreed!
I think tufsu is right about the skyway extensions. I think the drawings done back in the 1970s (or was it the 1980s?) were conceptual drawings, not engineering plans. There have been considerable changes along the proposed stadium line - Berkman 1 and 2, the coliseum has moved, heck even the police station and jail may be newer. Along Riverside, everything has changed - about the only things the same are the TU and BCBS, even the YMCA has expanded since then. So, even if there were engineering drawings (which I doubt), they are so old they would have to be redone, almost from scratch. Not only has the landscape changed, but environmental rules and engineering standards have, too.
Now, there are sections of the House stimulus bill (haven't seen the Senate version) for Amtrak rail restoration and equipment for new intercity service. Perhaps the area should be going after that. However, stjr has a point - who will pay for the operations of these things?
Regarding Amtrak, they claim they have studies that show they can break even on O&M costs running a Florida corridor service. The hold up is the implementation costs that would have to be shared by the State of Florida. If this is true, that would take care of stjr's point.
IMO, the highways should be tolled to pay for rail projects. Why charge people for travelling smartly? Of course, we have to get a system up and running first...
that's not going to work...people would scream...toll revenues should go to the roads....but if we add more tolls, then the gas tax revenues could go to transit.
SKYWAY: The Skyway PLANS are done to roll on to the Stadium. The Riverside Plans include the Brooklyn Park Station, and I believe they extend to about Forrest Street. While it is true they would have to be checked due to new infrastructure, the Skyway is so over-engineered that no concievible change should effect it.
Riverside Avenue has been widened and built by some of those same plans, the median is specified for the Skyway.
Bay Street, nothing has been built that would change a thing save a water pipe or electrical cable or two. These plans were last revisited in the early 1990's, so they certainly don't pre-date the Police Station, BOA, etc.
The point being, any engineering firm and any DOT should be able to get them back in our hands within a month. Most likely with a big red rubber stamp "APPROVED"!
90% of the stuff going to the Obama stimiulus is concept in final study or approval stage, some with engineering already done.
When our JAA airport director went to Washington to fight for $7 BILLION all on his own, nobody jumped on that idea with:
"not shovel ready", "needs O&M", "Can't support itself", "Drawings out of date", "Have terminal don't need more" etc... How many knew that we had plans for two more LONG runways? How many knew that one of those would nest right up to the I-95 and I-295 interchange? How many knew we were in need of more airport facility? Probably none.
Hell you want it re-engineered? Run it into FCCJ, Brooklyn and the Stadium, remove the monorail beam and lay streetcar or ultra-light rail on it. It could reach ground level running in San Marco, Brooklyn, MLK and FCCJ.
Reminds me of a fellow who builds a medium house but frames in a few windows and plumbing for some additions before covering the whole thing with siding. He plans to go back and open those windows and add those rooms someday in the future. Yet with everything stubbed out, the feds tell him he's not "Shovel Ready" so they sit down, draw up plans and build a new house. DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!
I'll stick with my statement that the Skyway is about as shovel ready as anything is going to get.
OCKLAWAHA
Another project that is "NSR" Near-Shovel-Ready, is option 1. and 2. of the Winter Haven Intermodal yard, Lakeland bypass.
Both of these options rebuild the former Seaboard Air Line "S" from Croom-Auburndale. One of the major routes including a major Amtrak route that the State should have NEVER allowed to be abandoned.
Gee whiz Mr. Wilson, wouldn't this be a great time to THINK about passenger rail's future in our state?
But knowing the backward rail guys at FDOT, we'll see some other options 3-5 which involve a long, long, circuitous route through Lakeland or Plant City.
OCKLAWAHA
One would think the establishment of an Amtrak Florida corridor service (at least the FEC portion)would be an example of a "shovel ready" project that would create new jobs, as well as new economic development opportunities. Someone would have to upgrade track infrastructure, bridges, crossings, etc. and others would have to be employed on the extra trains and in new stations connecting additional Florida cities. Furthermore, other professionals will be needed to design or redesign train stations in cities like St. Augustine and even Jacksonville. Imo, this would be a project that creates short and long term jobs, while having a huge impact on how our community will develop in the future. Unfortunately, it does not appear to be a priority of the State, as suggested by Congressman Mica and Congresswoman Brown..
I wish they'd let the FEC and a couple of us have a shot at it. We'd announce the pre-schedule in the fall 09 timetable, and the first trains would roll on the 365 day mark. YES, it's THAT EASY.
OCKLAWAHA
Jason, I love the idea. Let's put tolls back on the freeways. Not only would it add money for mass transit, but also eventually cut down on the need for wider freeways and less money spent on wear and tear. It would cause people to rethink where they buy that next home, force developers to create more infill projects and could be a real boost for our local economy.
Toll lanes are the future for almost every highway in Florida...the majprity of I-75, I-95, and I-4 will be just 6 lanes...with any additional lanes being tolled and/or HOV (like the new lanes on I-95 in Miami)...this is the design concept that FDOT has been working with for years.
But once again, it is very unlikely that the toll revenue would go to transit....it will be used as a way of controlling sprawl and congestion as well as for maintaning the roads.
So you might be right, but it sounds counterproductive. How does building a toll lane or HOV help control sprawl and congestion? If I live in St. John's and drive an hour to work in Duval, a lane I pay 75cents for to make my drive to work quicker is not controlling sprawl and does nothing for relieving congestion. In fact I think it might actually promote it. And what is the difference in a gas tax funding mass transit vs. a toll. Both come from cars and trucks.
The cost of building the infrastructure to charge a toll also has to be considered. So maybe we should go with your original idea. Forget the tolls on the roads and just put all of the gas taxes into mass transit. I kind of like this plan ;)