SING ALONG WITH THE SKYWAY ANTHEM
Michael Rennie was ill the day the earth stood still
But he told us where we stand
And Flash Gordon was there in silver underwear
Claude Raines was the invisible man
Then something went wrong for Fay Wray and King Kong
They got caught in a celluloid jam
Then at a deadly pace it came from outer space
And this is how the message ran:
Someone posted about the skyway being slow and the transfer mess, then I started checking. Oh my this is a simple fix and great for Stadium and San Marco expansion.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/skywayswitchdetail.jpg)
Current Skyway junction layout.
This is a simple matter of patterns. Figure "8's", lines that intersect and lines that don't... It's about FLUID and FLOW... Something the Skyway wastes away today.
What if we DID expand it? EASY, Look at the pattern here, it even shows some (NOT ALL) switch work that would no longer be needed where the lines join.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/SKYWAYOPERATIONEXPANDED.png)
"England swings like a pendulum do..."
So the solution would be to build into two slightly longer trains (4 current cars or 6 future cars = 2 end cars and 4 center cars on each train). Now you've got 8 intersecting lines, 4 on each side of Central Station, which narrow to two tracks at Central Station. How do you make it dance?
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/skywaySWITCHESFIXED.jpg)
SKYWAY REVISED (OCKLAWAHA) LAYOUT
Blue Line, (EXAMPLE) the trains leave the end points at about the same moment. The train (either one) which comes in from Union Station, will enter Central Station first using only the Northside track. As it pulls away the other train will meet it on the other track near Hemming Plaza Station or the MIDWAY POINT. Thus with an off center Central Station, it's as easy as braiding hair.
Gotta pattern?
THOUGHTS?
Science Fiction - Double Feature
Dr. X will build a creature
See androids fighting Brad and Janet
Ann Francis stars in Forbidden Planet
Oh-oh at the late night, double feature, Skyway show
I wanna go, oh-oh, to the late night double feature Skyway show
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/lightningandTRACTION-1-1.jpg)
(http://www.thepeninsulacondos.com/images/the-peninsula.jpg)
Where's the Skyway in this scene?
The little train that can't...
A new prospective and maybe a new type of post. We're always talking about how the Skyway misses the mark and I'm thinking which marks? What major employment, school or residential centers does the Skyway miss. I would say name anything more the a block away, and in some cases such as FCCJ its cut off by a virtual freeway. Let's cover the entire proposed route system as of today:
Central Station to Metropolitan Stadium
Central Station to Shand's
Central Station to Riverside
Central Station to San Marco
you can add any new or unknown route idea if you can justify the traffic potential and name the buildings.
I counting on you good people to come up with a list, I'm thinking simple like the following example, or invent your own list:
Blue Cross, XXX Blocks from the nearest station - and XXX employees (if you happen to know)
CSX, XXX Blocks from the nearest station
OCKLAWAHA
That pretty much sums it up. I guess a catwalk could be built from the station to FCCJ or just take your chances with the traffic.
I remember the skyway (extension) was supposed to go directly into the FCCJ building on the 3rd floor. But the school fought that, not wanting to generate unnecessary traffic in that particular proposed corridor.
Riverplace station is just a block or two from Strand and Peninsula.
If no one wants to "play", guess I'll have to find another way to Identify the large employers in the urban core that the Skyway misses:
Blue Cross & Blue Shield of Florida 9,000
Baptist Health System 5,600
Citibank (Citi-Cards) 5,000
CSX 4,400
Bank of America 4,000
Wachovia 3,700
Shands Jacksonville Healthcare 3,500
Bell South Telecommunications 3,320
Aetna, Inc 3,000
Fidelity National Financial, Inc 2,300
Vistakon Vision Products Inc 2,249
Kelley-Clarke Inc 2,200 ?
Washington Mutual 2,100 ?
Come on folks I want to see every other Downtown employer missed by the Skyway.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 13, 2009, 10:08:32 AM
If no one wants to "play", guess I'll have to find another way to Identify the large employers in the urban core that the Skyway misses:
Blue Cross & Blue Shield of Florida 9,000
Baptist Health System 5,600
Citibank (Citi-Cards) 5,000
CSX 4,400
Bank of America 4,000
Wachovia 3,700
Shands Jacksonville Healthcare 3,500
Bell South Telecommunications 3,320
Aetna, Inc 3,000
Fidelity National Financial, Inc 2,300
Vistakon Vision Products Inc 2,249
Kelley-Clarke Inc 2,200 ?
Washington Mutual 2,100 ?
Come on folks I want to see every other Downtown employer missed by the Skyway.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, the MAJORITY of these employees work OUTSIDE the urban core. These numbers are all of Duval County for these companies, not downtown. Most of Blue Cross is at Gate Parkway. Citibank, Washington Mutual, and Vistakon, etc. are all in the suburbs. Most Bank of America and Wachovia employees are at bank branches or a suburban office park. So are a significant numbers of CSX and ATT/Bellsouth employees. Baptist has large numbers of employees at the Beach and its South campus. Shands has offices all over Jax as well.
Maybe its presentations like this that the original planners relied on to justify the current system. That would explain why they are off 90% after 20 years of additional Downtown growth from the base used in the original traffic estimates!
An extension to Jacksonville Municipal Stadium could bring an astronomical number of rider's and not just for the Jag's games but baseball games, FLA / GA (week), Met Park / Fairgrounds activities and events at the Arena.
None of the above are really employment or residential opportunities but could bring major spikes in riders year round. The stadium line would increase the weekend rider numbers exponentially too.
I think a few catwalks would add some usability. FCCJ, Strand, Penisular, Hilton, Atena and Baptist Health. The best extension to me would be to the Riverside Arts Market site to serve Fidelity, BCBS and the Everbank building.
1. Catwalk across the State/Union freeway to FCCJ campus
2. Extension A: Bay St. to A Phillip Randolph, serving the Stadium, Arena, Ballpark, and Met Park. Cover the sidewalks from the station up Randolph to further promote a 'street market' type atmosphere for the entire street
3. Extension B: down towards Everbank/Fidelity
Then watch the ridership numbers skyrocket, causing:
4. Actual extension C: to the Kings Ave Station, then
5. Extension D: down to that TOD/TAD proposed on Philips Hwy. (Jackson Square?)
6. Extension E: To the R.A.M. area
I wouldn't be in favor of ANY extension of this, without it coming with a commuter rail line. I don't think it would generate enough riders. The main problem with the skyway is that people don't want to drive for 45 minutes from Orange Park, then park and wait on the Skyway. Downtown doesn't have traffic - the burbs have traffic.
Once you build the line from OP to Downtown, then extend it to Riverside and Forest, and to the Sports Complex, depending on the cost.
Now, with regards to the employer list (these are my estimates, not official stats):
Blue Cross & Blue Shield of Florida 9,000 (about 1,500-2,000 downtown)
Baptist Health System 5,600 (about 3,500 downtown)
Citibank (Citi-Cards) 5,000 (0 Downtown)
CSX 4,400 (About 3,000 Downtown)
Bank of America 4,000 (About 500-750 downtown)
Wachovia 3,700 (About 1,000 downtown)
Shands Jacksonville Healthcare 3,500 (most if not all downtown)
Bell South Telecommunications 3,320 (about 1,500 downtown)
Aetna, Inc 3,000 (most downtown)
Fidelity National Financial, Inc 2,300 (all downtown)
Vistakon Vision Products Inc 2,249 (none downtown)
Kelley-Clarke Inc 2,200 (none downtown)
Washington Mutual 2,100 (none downtown)
This adds up to about 17,000 people downtown. Also, the Fidelity campus has three companies (FNF, FIS, and LPS) - is this number representative of all three? While a solid number, The Fidelity Companies, Shands, Baptist, and I believe BCBS all have free parking. You will be hardpressed to find anyone from any of these companies who want to commute downtown, and instead of parking for free, want to pay to then ride the Skyway?
If that thing ever has any HOPE of being remotely useful it needs to connect at a minimum:
(In order of Importance)
-UNF
-The airport main terminal
-JU
-NAS Jax
-Gate Parkway corporate park, a couple different stops there + walkways to the buildings
-Riverside/Avondale, somewhere around the Shops @ Avondale, include commuter parking if room.
-5 Points, include commuter parking if practicable.
-San Marco, at/by the square.
-Springfield, put a station + parking somewhere on N. Main, knock down some of those used car lots to make room.
-Northside around Gateway Mall, and provide parking for commuters
-The beaches, those areas need several stops, as close as practicable to residential areas
-Avenues Mall, can make agreement w/ owner to use lot for commuter parking
-Town Center Mall, can make agreement w/ owner to use lot for commuter parking
-Orange Park Mall, can make agreement w/ owner to use lot for commuter parking
-Regency Mall, can make agreement w/ owner to use lot for commuter parking
-Put a station in Fidelity's parking garage, that will serve that cluster of buildings, incl. Dupont, Center Bank, etc.
And this is just a start. Ideally, a line could eventually go to Saint Augustine and Ponte Vedra, for all those commuters. And the trains need to be faster and bigger.
If they did those expansions, we'd actually have useable rail transport here.
Quote from: Doctor_K on April 13, 2009, 12:21:59 PM
1. Catwalk across the State/Union freeway to FCCJ campus
2. Extension A: Bay St. to A Phillip Randolph, serving the Stadium, Arena, Ballpark, and Met Park. Cover the sidewalks from the station up Randolph to further promote a 'street market' type atmosphere for the entire street
3. Extension B: down towards Everbank/Fidelity
Then watch the ridership numbers skyrocket, causing:
4. Actual extension C: to the Kings Ave Station, then
5. Extension D: down to that TOD/TAD proposed on Philips Hwy. (Jackson Square?)
6. Extension E: To the R.A.M. area
+1, I forgot about the arena and all the public event spaces. Those should be connected too. Good thinking.
And one question for Ocklawaha...how fast can those things go?
Would they need to be replaced for longer distances?
I only ever see them going like 20mph and that isn't going to cut it for longer distances...
Yep, UNF. That's 16,000 students and growing every year. It would be nice if it went straight down beach (like the k2), stopping at UNF, and then continuing over the new bridge to the beach. People could use it to go to school who live on either side of UNF, and anyone from downtown east could take it to the beach on the weekends.
The skyway is a peoplemover. Its not a suitable mode of transit for long distances. To stretch into the burbs and other destinations, commuter rail, streetcar and light rail are more cost effective and efficient options.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 13, 2009, 08:51:33 PM
The skyway is a peoplemover. Its not a suitable mode of transit for long distances. To stretch into the burbs and other destinations, commuter rail, streetcar and light rail are more cost effective and efficient options.
I can only roll my eyes at the persistent misconceptions and distortions about the $ky-high-way on these MJ threads, fueled by a love-sick intoxication and blind fascination regarding this oversized toy joy-ride. One must LOL at the selective and twisted "information" thrown out to defend its honor. Its obvious many posters have a wholesale and overly simplistic misunderstanding of the $ky-high-way's relative features, feasibility, costs, benefits, priorities, value, etc. The only other explanation is that they work for JTA or one of its $ky-high-way contractors and robotically respond in knee-jerk fashion to any attack upon their beloved boondoggle. Regardless, it seems nigh impossible to reason with such individuals as its akin to dancing while standing in a quicksand composed of all-too-conveniently invented "facts" or manufactured emotions of enthrallment.
With all the wishful thinking here about it, why don't we just abandon any thought of other mass transit options, rip up all the streets and replace them with the $ky-high-way - the "universal solution" to all our mass transit ills. Let's run the $ky-high-way to all the corners of town. Why stop there? We could find ever more of those mysteriously missing riders if we keep extending it to every corner of the world. Heck, lets bridge the oceans, and seek out more riders across the nation. We can then coat the thing in 24 Kt. gold since money is no object. After that, we can all go into indentured servitude to pay for building and operating the damn thing. It will all be worth it as we will have found the magic bullet for all our mass transit needs and can sleep happily ever after.
And so goes another fairy tale from fantasy land where dreams come true and reality is tossed to the wind.
Really, no wonder these silly projects get built. The simple minded thinking of the supposedly better informed haunting these threads doesn't bode well for the rest of the populace.
Thank goodness one can hopefully rely on a power greater than uninformed, misdirected, and thoughtless decision making: taxpayers ability to indiscriminately revolt against anything that reeks of failure, appears to be a financial sinkhole, and that has no significant constituency due to the few who will ever use it, even in their dreams. For once, the meek may actually inherit the earth (or, at least, Jax!) :D
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 13, 2009, 05:34:13 PM
And one question for Ocklawaha...how fast can those things go?
Would they need to be replaced for longer distances?
I only ever see them going like 20mph and that isn't going to cut it for longer distances...
Ennis is correct that it isn't designed to be longer distance transport. While it has been proved to 50 MPH in a test run, it would have a lot of hunt motion, buff and draft forces, creating a sickening gallop. It is strictly a 1-3 mile per extension type of moving sidewalk.
Also the comment about "Then we would have rail", uh, no, it's not rail at all, it's a monorail and in fact each car rides on 19 tires, including two huge semi-truck type tires. This thing cannot compete head to head with steel wheel on steel rail technology, except in it's limited urbanized enviroment. OCKLAWAHA
(http://www.inekon-trams.com/seattle-streetcar-route-50474.JPG)
Seattle, where Monorail - Streetcar - LRT - BRT - Commuter Rail and Bus all converge for seamless mobilityQuote from: stjr on April 13, 2009, 11:46:18 PM
I can only roll my eyes at the persistent misconceptions and distortions about the $ky-high-way on these MJ threads, fueled by a love-sick intoxication and blind fascination regarding this oversized toy joy-ride. One must LOL at the selective and twisted "information" thrown out to defend its honor. Its obvious many posters have a wholesale and overly simplistic misunderstanding of the $ky-high-way's relative features, feasibility, costs, benefits, priorities, value, etc. The only other explanation is that they work for JTA or one of its $ky-high-way contractors and robotically respond in knee-jerk fashion to any attack upon their beloved boondoggle. Regardless, it seems nigh impossible to reason with such individuals as its akin to dancing while standing in a quicksand composed of all-too-conveniently invented "facts" or manufactured emotions of enthrallment.
stjr, this post seems beneath you. I was under the mistaken impression that you wanted a civil dialog. In one paragraph you have accused us of distortions, twisting facts, blind fascination, simplistic misunderstanding, and loving a boondoggle.
Since you are obviously the expert in this field, how about going through that list of accusations and tell us how we did each one. For example which of us works for JTA? (I'm sorry, that was just one more thing we were accused of) What facts did we twist and how? What have we distorted? etc.QuoteWith all the wishful thinking here about it, why don't we just abandon any thought of other mass transit options, rip up all the streets and replace them with the $ky-high-way - the "universal solution" to all our mass transit ills. Let's run the $ky-high-way to all the corners of town. Why stop there? We could find ever more of those mysteriously missing riders if we keep extending it to every corner of the world. Heck, lets bridge the oceans, and seek out more riders across the nation. We can then coat the thing in 24 Kt. gold since money is no object. After that, we can all go into indentured servitude to pay for building and operating the damn thing. It will all be worth it as we will have found the magic bullet for all our mass transit needs and can sleep happily ever after.
Uh? stjr, who said this was universal transit? Who said this would mean abandonment of other transit? When did we say it would cure all the transit ills? QuoteAnd so goes another fairy tale from fantasy land where dreams come true and reality is tossed to the wind.
If we live in fantasy land, then please grace us with your profession so when properly addressed we may yield to the expert. QuoteReally, no wonder these silly projects get built. The simple minded thinking of the supposedly better informed haunting these threads doesn't bode well for the rest of the populace. Thank goodness one can hopefully rely on a power greater than uninformed, misdirected, and thoughtless decision making: taxpayers ability to indiscriminately revolt against anything that reeks of failure, appears to be a financial sinkhole, and that has no significant constituency due to the few who will ever use it, even in their dreams. For once, the meek may actually inherit the earth (or, at least, Jax!) :D
Why is it I get the feeling that you wouldn't know a "Butterfly door" from an "Anti-climber", or a "Bear trap" from a "juice jack." Somewhere along the line you made a decision not to discuss or consider any other view at at that point your mind must have snapped shut like a steel trap. It's really sad because for awhile I thought you were serious and we were having an open discussion of ideas, facts and figures. OCKLAWAHA
stjr... To use your very own words...
QuoteI can only roll my eyes at the persistent misconceptions and distortions
...that you attribute to others. You have consistantly and without justification misrepresented the positions of anybody who offer a differing opinion than your own. We get it stjr... you hate the skyway in all forms and want it dismantled or better yet imploded with dynamite in a made for TV event... we get it. Your position however is a wishful fantasy and not grounded in reality...
Quote from: thelakelander on April 13, 2009, 08:51:33 PM
The skyway is a peoplemover. Its not a suitable mode of transit for long distances. To stretch into the burbs and other destinations, commuter rail, streetcar and light rail are more cost effective and efficient options.
Tell that to New York or Chicago...they both have useful elevated railways systems that serve the whole metro area.
And in any event a ground-based rail system won't fly, since it's very difficult and very expensive to exercise eminent domain powers now, and the room simply doesn't exist in the areas that most need to be served.
Elevation has nothing to do with the technology. The systems you mentioned are heavy rail systems. The skyway is not. Take a look at the images below. The visual difference in the technology should stand out.
Jacksonville Skyway
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6969-p1150870.JPG)
Chicago EL
(http://www.sarahhadley.com/images/magazine/Chicago_el.jpg)
http://quyhac.blogspot.com/2007/04/mode-of-transport-metro.html
As far as being elevated or not, and paying for ROW, streetcars/light rail can run in existing public ROW. ROW agreements would have to worked out to use existing rail for commuter rail, but its common practice. All of these options would be more cost effective than purchasing ROW for elevated support columns and constructing elevated infrastructure all over town.
(http://www.urbanrail.net/au/sydney/sydney-monorail1.jpg)
This is the Sydney Australia Monorail System, is longer, faster and higher capacity, yet look at that track - One look at his photo, then at our own Skyway, and most should see where our costs skyrocketed. Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 08:47:57 AM
Quote from: thChriswUfGatorelakelander on April 13, 2009, 08:51:33 PM
The skyway is a peoplemover. Its not a suitable mode of transit for long distances. To stretch into the burbs and other destinations, commuter rail, streetcar and light rail are more cost effective and efficient options.
Tell that to New York or Chicago...they both have useful elevated railways systems that serve the whole metro area.
ChriswUfGator, Great input BTW, Ennis has it right that the Skyway not unlike Morgantown WVA, Los Colinas, Detroit or Miami Metro-Mover, is more of a horizontal elevator then a rapid transit system. As a transportation consultant I can assure you that a diverse mix of transit types, even if relatively small in route miles, sells. The public loves choice and it is possible to form that matrix with dedicated effort, and federal money. This is a "secret" that the deep South/Florida just hasn't caught onto yet. QuoteAnd in any event a ground-based rail system won't fly, since it's very difficult and very expensive to exercise eminent domain powers now, and the room simply doesn't exist in the areas that most need to be served.
Ground based rail is less money per mile to construct then a highway, and has 3x the capacity for for moving people, per direction, per hour. As for service areas, commuter rail can run with Amtrak and CSX on the same tracks. We have more miles of track within Jacksonville then most of the rest of the state. Track and right-of-way are the least of our worries in building a great transit system. Where track is missing (to the beaches for example) we have high power lines that form a natural corridor for transit, when this is mixed with in street, on median, alongside railroad, curbside, abandoned railroad, elevated, subway rail (depending on the need for any given neighborhood), we come out as very attractive for transit success.
At least JTA seems to be listening and one might say the backfield is in motion!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2009, 09:15:12 AM
Elevation has nothing to do with the technology. The systems you mentioned are heavy rail systems. The skyway is not. Take a look at the images below. The visual difference in the technology should stand out.
Jacksonville Skyway
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6969-p1150870.JPG)
Chicago EL
(http://www.sarahhadley.com/images/magazine/Chicago_el.jpg)
http://quyhac.blogspot.com/2007/04/mode-of-transport-metro.html
As far as being elevated or not, and paying for ROW, streetcars/light rail can run in existing public ROW. ROW agreements would have to worked out to use existing rail for commuter rail, but its common practice. All of these options would be more cost effective than purchasing ROW for elevated support columns and constructing elevated infrastructure all over town.
I respectfully disagree with your assessment...
Seattle's elevated monorail, a very similar setup to Jacksonville's as far as the tracks go, does 50mph. That's a useable speed for long-distance transport.
You could do the same around here, using the existing tracks with upgraded trains. I don't think it's anywhere near as big a deal as you're making out, you could simply build longer trains with higher speed capabilities. The tracks themselves are already double-tracks made from solid poured concrete, they'll certainly handle the stress with no problems. The track portion of the system, as Ock noted in his own post, is way overbuilt to begin with.
And I still think an EL is the way to go, since the areas that need to be served most around here don't have room for traditional tracks. Although Ock has a great idea about lines under the power towers, using the land already cleared. That's smart. But in urban areas like RS, SM, etc., an EL is the way to go.
You're totally missing the point made about the different in mode technology. In transit, one mode does not fit all. Heavy, commuter, light, streetcar and the skyway all have their pros and cons. When you properly evaluate the pros and cons for the corridor you intend to serve, modes change based on their effectiveness. This is why Seattle has developed streetcar, commuter rail and light rail (should open later this year) lines, instead of expanding their monorail.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 01:35:20 PM
I respectfully disagree with your assessment...
Seattle's elevated monorail, a very similar setup to Jacksonville's as far as the tracks go, does 50mph. That's a useable speed for long-distance transport.
You could do the same around here, using the existing tracks with upgraded trains.
I don't think it's anywhere near as big a deal as you're making out, you could simply build longer trains with higher speed capabilities. The tracks themselves are already double-tracks made from solid poured concrete, they'll certainly handle the stress with no problems. The track portion of the system, as Ock noted in his own post, is way overbuilt to begin with.
The skyway does not have tracks. It has rubber tires that run on concrete beams. Anything outside of downtown would require purchasing ROW (even if its elevated) and the capital costs would be insane. However, if we're taking about expanding rail into Clay or St. Johns Counties, there are existing railroad tracks already in place. This would be a cheaper option to stretch mass transit service into the burbs. Even if the skyway had not been overbuilt, it would still cost three times as much as no-frills commuter rail and streetcar systems.
QuoteAnd I still think an EL is the way to go, since the areas that need to be served most around here don't have room for traditional tracks. Although Ock has a great idea about lines under the power towers, using the land already cleared. That's smart. But in urban areas like RS, SM, etc., an EL is the way to go.
Chicago's EL does not stretch into most of Chicagoland. The Metra commuter rail system does that. NYC also has commuter rail, like NJ Transit and Metro-North, in its suburbs that feed riders into the city.
Extending the Skyway into Riverside would be a disaster for the historic district and mass transit proponents. If we want to sink the idea of expanding mass transit in Jacksonville, taking the Skyway into the heart of historic districts would be the way to go. However, a streetcar line linking core neighborhoods with DT, would be historically accurate, more visually appealing, cheaper to construct and maintain annually. Since streetcars can run in streets, there is also no need to purchase ROW for new transit corridors.
With that said, as more and more rail corridors come online, there is a good chance that portions of them will have to be elevated in heavily congested areas. However, we're a few decades away from that happening.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2009, 02:25:40 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 01:35:20 PM
I respectfully disagree with your assessment...
Seattle's elevated monorail, a very similar setup to Jacksonville's as far as the tracks go, does 50mph. That's a useable speed for long-distance transport.
You could do the same around here, using the existing tracks with upgraded trains.
I don't think it's anywhere near as big a deal as you're making out, you could simply build longer trains with higher speed capabilities. The tracks themselves are already double-tracks made from solid poured concrete, they'll certainly handle the stress with no problems. The track portion of the system, as Ock noted in his own post, is way overbuilt to begin with.
The skyway does not have tracks. It has rubber tires that run on concrete beams. Anything outside of downtown would require purchasing ROW (even if its elevated) and the capital costs would be insane. However, if we're taking about expanding rail into Clay or St. Johns Counties, there are existing railroad tracks already in place. This would be a cheaper option to stretch mass transit service into the burbs. Even if the skyway had not been overbuilt, it would still cost three times as much as no-frills commuter rail and streetcar systems.
QuoteAnd I still think an EL is the way to go, since the areas that need to be served most around here don't have room for traditional tracks. Although Ock has a great idea about lines under the power towers, using the land already cleared. That's smart. But in urban areas like RS, SM, etc., an EL is the way to go.
Chicago's EL does not stretch into most of Chicagoland. The Metra commuter rail system does that. NYC also has commuter rail, like NJ Transit and Metro-North, in its suburbs that feed riders into the city.
Extending the Skyway into Riverside would be a disaster for the historic district and mass transit proponents. If we want to sink the idea of expanding mass transit in Jacksonville, taking the Skyway into the heart of historic districts would be the way to go. However, a streetcar line linking core neighborhoods with DT, would be historically accurate, more visually appealing, cheaper to construct and maintain annually. Since streetcars can run in streets, there is also no need to purchase ROW for new transit corridors.
With that said, as more and more rail corridors come online, there is a good chance that portions of them will have to be elevated in heavily congested areas. However, we're a few decades away from that happening.
1: The cost of buying air rights or the small strip of property necessary to build an elevated railway is nowhere NEAR the cost of razing the 100ft wide swath you'd need for a traditional multi-track railway. It would be NOWHERE CLOSE.
2: Like every other elevated railway, except for Disney and Jacksonville (LOL!) Chicago's is part of a larger rail system. In areas where land is easier to obtain, it runs on the ground. Where land is scarce, it's elevated to minimize it's footprint. That's the whole point. I see no reason why we couldn't design a dual-purpose train that can run on an elevated as well as ground tracks. Trains can go uphill you know...
3: I know what the current trains are, and that's why I've already said we need new ones. You could easily mount steel rails to the existing elevated cement rail lines, at a minimal cost. The main cost is pouring all that concrete. Re-design the trains, and add tracks if you want. That prolly wouldn't be that expensive.
4: The whole point of this thread is asking for opinions on what would make the skyway viable. I gave my opinion. Nothing I have said is at all impossible. It's all perfectly feasible, and already exists exactly as I'm describing it in other cities, as I've pointed out and given examples, like Seattle.
5: I got your point, I just disagreed with it. That doesn't mean I don't understand it.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 14, 2009, 01:21:43 AM
Quote from: stjr on April 13, 2009, 11:46:18 PM
I can only roll my eyes at the persistent misconceptions and distortions about the $ky-high-way on these MJ threads, fueled by a love-sick intoxication and blind fascination regarding this oversized toy joy-ride. One must LOL at the selective and twisted "information" thrown out to defend its honor. Its obvious many posters have a wholesale and overly simplistic misunderstanding of the $ky-high-way's relative features, feasibility, costs, benefits, priorities, value, etc. The only other explanation is that they work for JTA or one of its $ky-high-way contractors and robotically respond in knee-jerk fashion to any attack upon their beloved boondoggle. Regardless, it seems nigh impossible to reason with such individuals as its akin to dancing while standing in a quicksand composed of all-too-conveniently invented "facts" or manufactured emotions of enthrallment.
stjr, this post seems beneath you. I was under the mistaken impression that you wanted a civil dialog. In one paragraph you have accused us of distortions, twisting facts, blind fascination, simplistic misunderstanding, and loving a boondoggle.
Ock, you are being way too serious and defensive here. Please don't confuse my edge with a personal attack on you or any other person. If you note, I said "many posters", not all. And, I didn't name names. This is pointed at the "many posters" on these threads who persistently advocate an UNqualified expansion to any area of town they so desire while consistently disregarding the $ky-high-way's sordid performance history, limited capabilities and applicabilities, questionable costs vs. benefits, better alternatives, and overall lack of feasibility. I and others, including you and Lake, regularly posts supplementary info about these issues yet some people continue to blindly march on without taking much, if any, of it into account. Just go back and re-read the numerous threads and you can't miss this. I see nothing here that should detract from your personal position which I take to be a QUALIFIED expansion.
QuoteSince you are obviously the expert in this field, how about going through that list of accusations and tell us how we did each one. For example which of us works for JTA? (I'm sorry, that was just one more thing we were accused of) What facts did we twist and how? What have we distorted? etc.[/color][/b]
Ock, I never declared myself an expert but if you wish to confer that title upon me I would be so honored! ;) I will give myself credit for trying to bring to bear a dose of common sense and a desire to advocate for the long-term good for our entire community - elements which are often lacking in addressing community issues. I won't deny that others, given the same attributes, may come to differing conclusions - and that's OK by me.
To me, these threads are mostly opinions peppered with an occasional tidbit of factual information. If expertise in every subject commented on is required, then MJ would shrivel and die. I feel my opinion is no better or worse than any other, it's just my opinion. You and anyone else are entitled to disagree. Life is too short to get one's back up over any post on this or any other internet forum unless it's a personal attack on someone (not to be confused with a strident disagreement with public personas).
I never said a given poster worked for JTA, I just speculated this could be a motivation for someone to stake a pro position. I will say, knowing JTA's history, I wouldn't be surprised if one of their employees or contractors wasn't present here posting the company line. I can't say for sure but neither can you.
QuoteQuoteWith all the wishful thinking here about it, why don't we just abandon any thought of other mass transit options, rip up all the streets and replace them with the $ky-high-way - the "universal solution" to all our mass transit ills. Let's run the $ky-high-way to all the corners of town. Why stop there? We could find ever more of those mysteriously missing riders if we keep extending it to every corner of the world. Heck, lets bridge the oceans, and seek out more riders across the nation. We can then coat the thing in 24 Kt. gold since money is no object. After that, we can all go into indentured servitude to pay for building and operating the damn thing. It will all be worth it as we will have found the magic bullet for all our mass transit needs and can sleep happily ever after.
Uh? stjr, who said this was universal transit? Who said this would mean abandonment of other transit? When did we say it would cure all the transit ills?
QuoteAnd so goes another fairy tale from fantasy land where dreams come true and reality is tossed to the wind.
If we live in fantasy land, then please grace us with your profession so when properly addressed we may yield to the expert.
Ock, this is sarcasm. Would it help if I labeled it as such? I merely took to the extreme the UNqualified expansion pistons. Sorry you missed out on it even though I self-described it as fairy tale.
QuoteQuoteReally, no wonder these silly projects get built. The simple minded thinking of the supposedly better informed haunting these threads doesn't bode well for the rest of the populace. Thank goodness one can hopefully rely on a power greater than uninformed, misdirected, and thoughtless decision making: taxpayers ability to indiscriminately revolt against anything that reeks of failure, appears to be a financial sinkhole, and that has no significant constituency due to the few who will ever use it, even in their dreams. For once, the meek may actually inherit the earth (or, at least, Jax!) :D
Why is it I get the feeling that you wouldn't know a "Butterfly door" from an "Anti-climber", or a "Bear trap" from a "juice jack." Somewhere along the line you made a decision not to discuss or consider any other view at at that point your mind must have snapped shut like a steel trap. It's really sad because for awhile I thought you were serious and we were having an open discussion of ideas, facts and figures.
OCKLAWAHA
More sarcasm on my part. As to accepting other views, I would say I am no more strident in my opinion than you or many others are in theirs. Where is it written that we MUST convince one another to change our views. I respect the views of you, Lake, and others who are informed and reasonable, but that doesn't require me to agree with you. Nor, obviously, you with I.
To summarize, I actually think we have an overlap, if I get your drift properly. We seem to be agreeing that other mass transit priorities are needed to make a properly functioning mass transit system for Jax. Where I believe we differ, is that I don't support ANY expansion of the $ky-high-way for any reason and I am looking for its gradual phase out as other, better alternatives are implemented to supplant it. You seem to view these other alternatives, not as replacements for the $ky-high-way, but adjuncts to it and its expansion. We also appear to disagree as to the impact of an expansion of the $ky-high-way as to the funding and timing of other mass transit projects. I feel it will lead to more deferrals, you don't. So be it. We agree to disagree. Each of us will, I am sure, continue the advocacy of our positions. That's also OK by me.
Now...let's get ready to ruuuummmble again! ;D
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 14, 2009, 06:50:38 AM
stjr... To use your very own words...
QuoteI can only roll my eyes at the persistent misconceptions and distortions
...that you attribute to others. You have consistantly and without justification misrepresented the positions of anybody who offer a differing opinion than your own. We get it stjr... you hate the skyway in all forms and want it dismantled or better yet imploded with dynamite in a made for TV event... we get it. Your position however is a wishful fantasy and not grounded in reality...
Bridge, please show me a position that I "consistently and without justification" misrepresented or distorted. Are you sure you aren't guilty of this yourself by making this accusation of me?
You are correct, I would love to take you up on your suggestion for the TV event. Is it a crime to want to see the $ky-high-way dismantled? I think my reasons for this have been made clear. Is this any more a fantasy than that of many to expand it to the far corners of town? Just reread the many threads on the $ky-high-way to see the multitude of "pro-expansion" fantasies. Is my "fantasy" somehow less valid because it's not yours? Just wondering.... ;)
(http://images.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/e/ei/einschienerp.jpg)
1909 - Brennan Monorail
Louis Brennan patented his invention for a gyroscopically-balanced car in 1903. A full scale demonstration was presented to the press on November 10, 1909 at Gillingham, England. It was built primarily as a military vehicle due to the high speed at which track could be laid. Even with passengers all on one side of the vehicle, the two onboard gyroscopes were strong enough to keep the car level. Despite a series of successful demonstrations to scientists, engineers and military officers, the fear that the gyroscopes might fail prevented Brennan's invention from ever being used for transportation.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
1: The cost of buying air rights or the small strip of property necessary to build an elevated railway is nowhere NEAR the cost of razing the 100ft wide swath you'd need for a traditional multi-track railway. It would be NOWHERE CLOSE.
There is nothing to buy for Light Rail, Streetcar or Skyway expansion, the rights-of-ways are already owned by the city. Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
2: Like every other elevated railway, except for Disney and Jacksonville (LOL!) Chicago's is part of a larger rail system. In areas where land is easier to obtain, it runs on the ground. Where land is scarce, it's elevated to minimize it's footprint. That's the whole point. I see no reason why we couldn't design a dual-purpose train that can run on an elevated as well as ground tracks. Trains can go uphill you know...
(http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/lartigue/magnesium2a.jpg)
The Magnesium Monorail: 1924
Probably the last Lartigue monorail was built in the Mojave Desert, USA, by the Sierra Salt Corporation in California. It carried magnesium salts from their mine in the Crystal Hills to the railhead at Trona, across difficult terrain in the Salinas Valley. (Inyo County) The line was successful but only lasted 2 years before modern developments in magnesium extraction put the mine out of business.
There would be no need to reinvent the wheel here. Most any off the shelf train equipment could climb a grade onto an elevated structure, but the costs become astronomical. Rather than some hi-tech modern transit cure-all, the monorail concept â€" as William D. Middleton's Metropolitan Railways: Rapid Transit in America reveals â€" predates electric street railways, the predecessor of light rail, by at least ten years. The fact that streetcars, light rail, interurbans, and other conventional forms of dual-rail urban transit (subways, elevated, etc.) proliferated everywhere in the world beginning in the late nineteenth century to the present day, while monorail systems remain few and far between, says a great deal about the relative versatility, suitability, reliability, and cost-effectiveness of traditional dual steel-rail technology.Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
3: I know what the current trains are, and that's why I've already said we need new ones. You could easily mount steel rails to the existing elevated cement rail lines, at a minimal cost. The main cost is pouring all that concrete. Redesign the trains, and add tracks if you want. That prolly wouldn't be that expensive.
History has shown that Monorail can't really compete with steel wheel on steel rail at grade. If Monorail could compete in costs, speeds, capacity, we would have built a nation wide Monorail system rather then a steel wheel/rail system. Why?
This is the reason we need to complete the Skyway to logical end points using a rather simple formula. Locate the dense residential, office, factory's, employers, restaurants, entertainment places and lay out the Skyway extensions so that each leg has some of each of those elements. People travel for a different experience then the one they are experiencing at the present moment in the space time continuum. A teen might travel from Condo to Candy Shop to School each day. But that same teen is not highly likely to go from School to School, Office to Office, etc...(http://www.monorails.org/webpix/1876.jpg)
1876 - Philadelphia Centennial
General Le-Roy Stone's steam driven monorail was first demonstrated at the United States Centennial Exposition in 1876. The ornately designed double-decker vehicle had two main wheels, the rear one driven by a rotary steam engine.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
4: The whole point of this thread is asking for opinions on what would make the skyway viable. I gave my opinion. Nothing I have said is at all impossible. It's all perfectly feasible, and already exists exactly as I'm describing it in other cities, as I've pointed out and given examples, like Seattle.
Actually the whole point of this thread is to see where we can get, NAME, ADDRESS, TYPE OF BUSINESS, VENUE, RESIDENCE. Only then can we at MJ offer to help JTA plan short logical extensions of the Skyway that would convert it from running from a Garage to a Bus Stop, into a real destination grabber. Name a building, help build a list, let's pool our knowledge... I think we got hijacked!
In order to enhance our opportunity to regain the "GATEWAY CITY" status we had for so long, we cannot afford NOT to expand the Skyway, build streetcars, and add bus routes, fareless entry and transfers to distribute those Amtrak riders to locations throughout downtown. Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
5: I got your point, I just disagreed with it. That doesn't mean I don't understand it.
No problem man. Elevated rail and subways are the most expensive types of railroad construction. Likewise JTA's original BRT-Quickway designs we're even more expensive then elevated or subway rail, and when all was said and done, all we would have to show for it was a few more miles of highways, and a handful of new buses. Not exactly the stuff dreams are made of. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
4: The whole point of this thread is asking for opinions on what would make the skyway viable. I gave my opinion. Nothing I have said is at all impossible. It's all perfectly feasible, and already exists exactly as I'm describing it in other cities, as I've pointed out and given examples, like Seattle.
5: I got your point, I just disagreed with it. That doesn't mean I don't understand it.
Cool. No hard feelings.
Quote from: stjr on April 14, 2009, 08:01:46 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 14, 2009, 06:50:38 AM
stjr... To use your very own words...
QuoteI can only roll my eyes at the persistent misconceptions and distortions
...that you attribute to others. You have consistantly and without justification misrepresented the positions of anybody who offer a differing opinion than your own. We get it stjr... you hate the skyway in all forms and want it dismantled or better yet imploded with dynamite in a made for TV event... we get it. Your position however is a wishful fantasy and not grounded in reality...
Bridge, please show me a position that I "consistently and without justification" misrepresented or distorted. Are you sure you aren't guilty of this yourself by making this accusation of me?
You are correct, I would love to take you up on your suggestion for the TV event. Is it a crime to want to see the $ky-high-way dismantled? I think my reasons for this have been made clear. Is this any more a fantasy than that of many to expand it to the far corners of town? Just reread the many threads on the $ky-high-way to see the multitude of "pro-expansion" fantasies. Is my "fantasy" somehow less valid because it's not yours? Just wondering.... ;)
I would gladly pay the pay per view cost to see this ugly, hulking, shadow casting, monstrosity blown up live on tv. But I am apparently a minority on this site, not to say that there is anything wrong with that 8). But I have said before if there is serious talk of extending this thing then deconsolidation needs to be considered. If the downtown area wants it let it pay for it.
Quote from: stjr on April 14, 2009, 07:52:50 PM
To summarize, I actually think we have an overlap, if I get your drift properly. We seem to be agreeing that other mass transit priorities are needed to make a properly functioning mass transit system for Jax. Where I believe we differ, is that I don't support ANY expansion of the $ky-high-way for any reason and I am looking for its gradual phase out as other, better alternatives are implemented to supplant it. You seem to view these other alternatives, not as replacements for the $ky-high-way, but adjuncts to it and its expansion. We also appear to disagree as to the impact of an expansion of the $ky-high-way as to the funding and timing of other mass transit projects. I feel it will lead to more deferrals, you don't. So be it. We agree to disagree. Each of us will, I am sure, continue the advocacy of our positions. That's also OK by me.
Unlike certain others who regularly post here, I don't like violence of any type, including angry words, shouting etc... PEACE MAN!
Yes we have a lot more overlap then you can imagine. As I told you here is the JOURNAL article that ran 28 years ago!QuoteJTA was warned in 1981 about the looming Skyway failure. Now, 27 years later, the same mistakes are being made on a grander scale. Jacksonville, welcome to 1981.
Times Union and Journal, Jacksonville, Sunday, April 12, 1981
TITLE: Mann favors trolleys over people movers
Written By: George Harmon (Journal Editorial Page Editor)
Robert W. Mann is a man after my own heart. He likes streetcars and I do, too. Only I call a streetcar a streetcar. Mann prefers to describe the modern version of the streetcar as "light-rail transit," or LRT.
Since I have written two columns in the past month on the proposed Downtown People Mover for Jacksonville, and am favorably disposed toward it, Mann has written to me warning the DPM could be a big fat turkey for Jacksonville.
(It may already be a turkey, The Reagan administration this week ordered cities such as Jacksonville to suspend activities aimed at developing people movers, but Democrats in the U.S. House are hoping to block Reagan's move.)
Mann said the so-called experts on mass transit in Jacksonville ought to be paying more attention to the revival of the streetcar-er, light-rail transit- that he says is taking place elsewhere in this country and Canada.
Mann describes himself as a freelance writer and says a book by him is due to be published later this year by Darwin Publications ("no connection with the theory of evolution") in Burbank, Calif. He says this book will be a pictorial history of the railroad systems in Florida and its title will be "Rails 'Neath the Palms."
With that introduction, I will let Mann write most of the rest of this column, which first questions the wisdom of the Downtown People Mover ever getting off the drawing boards, it is time that the Jacksonville Transportation Authority came down from the lofty Buck Rogers perch and examined a very real and cost-effective alternative to what may well be "pie-in-the-sky planning," says Mann.
Downtown People Movers are relatively new in the transit world. They combine several technologies into one system. DPMs include the building of an elevated guideway that is for all purposes, a two-lane highway.
This massive structure must also contain a 'railroad' of some form of guideway to keep the cars on track.
Add to this a power delivery system and a computer system and you come out with one very expensive machine.
"As originally planned, the Jacksonville system would virtually be a gift from Uncle Sam, a three- or
four- mile $150 million dollar gift. The trouble with gifts of this nature is that someone has to pay to maintain the thing and what happens if the entire system proves to be a turkey? What about 5 or 15 years from now? Will a sleek little box that rolls along, akin to an airport shuttle system, really be the answer for an urban sprawl that may someday reach St.Augustine?"
"I don't intend to spend any more time with DPMs. One only has to travel as far as Morgantown, W.Va, where the federal pilot system has been operating for years, to see this whole thing is a turkey!"
Mann says there is an alternative to a DPM in Jacksonville "but I fear that the JTA, City Hall and perhaps our news media will have to do their homework to see how real it really is. It is called LRT, for light-rail transit. LRT is a rebirth of the old, clunky trolley in a modern high-speed vehicle that can operate on many present track systems."
Mann then offers an imposing list of cities in which planned LRTs are being built or planned. "Light-rail systems are presently being built in Buffalo, N.Y., and San Diego, Calif., and planned for Portland, Ore; San Jose, Calif.; Denver, Col.;; Baltimore, Md.; Dayton, Ohio; Sacramento, Calif.; and Vancouver, British Columbia.
"The transit vehicles operate in any number of ways - elevated, just like the DPM, subway, new track in the street, in a median strip, lane separations, transit malls or down the same route that the regular freight railroads use, which in our case includes much lightly-used switching line.
"LRT is electric and clean. It is better on labor than the bus systems since the higher-capacity cars can be linked into trains of up to four or five cars with a single driver. As for speed, which includes time at stations and stops, the average bus in the United States does little better than 11.5 mph while the light-rail vehicle in Buffalo will do 23 mph. LRT has a much higher ridership than the bus systems on a worldwide basis and the vehicles can be bought 'off the shelf.'
"Look at what San Diego has done. The Southern Pacific railroad line from San Diego to Yuma, Ariz., was crippled by a flood several years ago and, even as a freight railroad, Southern Pacific had little interest in the industrial switching tracks that remained stretching from San Diego to the Mexican Border. The city and a short-line railroad operator made an offer on the tracks and soon were given the OK by the railroad.
"Transit planners decided that the existing track was valuable and decided to string the single electric wire and improve the line, where needed, for a ready made LRT system. For a dozen blocks or so downtown a street was ripped up and two tracks were laid in the center in what will remain a running transit mall with restricted auto traffic. And as the sleek new German-built cars leave downtown they can spring like an Amtrak streamliner with crossing lights flashing and bells ringing.
"Portland is building along a freight railroad line and a former freeway right-of-way [yes the freeway was scrapped in favor of LRT]. Calgary, Alberta, is putting its system along existing railroad lines and medians while others are working on deals to operate LRT by day and at peak hours, and allow the freight railroads to switch by night.
"In Jacksonville, there exist opportunities which exist in no other city: a spider web of tracks fanning out from Union Station to Southside, Ortega and Orange Park, Baldwin, northwest Jacksonville and Dinsmore, within a mile of the aiport, onto Blount Island, etc.
"Imagine a transit mall or LRT lane from the Union Station to the Union Street viaduct area and from there north into Springfield on the old Seaboard Coast Line tracks, then west to within a block of the Eighth Street hospital and then south to Union Station as a starter."
"Then tell yourself that it is already there save for the downtown mall and the trolley wire and it wouldn't have to compete with the automobile. Next tell yourself that San Diego built a 16 mile system for half the cost of our Four-mile DPM and used not one penny of federal money! Next ask: Who really runs things at the JTA?"
I have run out of space and cannot begin to answer Mann's questions, and am not sure how well I could. So I will end with this question: What do you readers think of his ideas? I'd like to know.
So you see stjr, I really was the Skyway's public enemy number one. The facts are they built the stupid thing anyway, invested $200 Million dollars got it about 1/3 done and walked off the job. Not all of this was JTA's fault, but something I was watching even 28 years ago. As soon as the Republicans took full power in Washington, all rail (and monorail) projects came to a screeching halt. The funding requirements were revised each year and little by little, if one was not building 12 lanes of new Expressway, (or JTB) your mass transit project could rot on the vine. So not only did we quit, but we would have had the federal carpet pulled right out from under us.
Things have changed since then. The downtown has transformed from a shopping mecca to more of a white collar, highrise
office tower and Landing/Riverwalk playground.
So I started this thread to find what major employers, or residential, church, restaurants, we can name in the downtown (BOTH BANKS) that the Skyway misses. I don't want to spend the local money on the Skyway, I figure the federal government got us into this (through UMTA) and they can damn well get us out of it. Again I'm not looking for double track to the Beaches, or even beyond North Riverside.
I have access to FDOT and AMTRAK plans, but the best ones are found in an older obscure USDOT study on multi-modal stations. In it, it lays out a 12 track terminal for Jacksonville and gives us the "PIN on the HINGE position" in Southeast Rail.
Amtrak is talking about 30 trains daily, 15 in each direction on various lines into and out of Jacksonville. Meanwhile Greyhound, Conejo, Trailways, American Coach and others will have 50 or so schedules running in and out of the Terminal. Add in JTA's 60+ bus routes and the express coaches, and the old terminal will have more human BUZZ then our airport. On top of all that activity, somewhere in the next 10 years, we start seeing several dozen commuter trains North, Southeast, Southwest, and West of the City DAILY.
(http://www.panynj.gov/airtrainnewark/images/history.necrender.jpg)
Concept for FEC-BUS-SKYWAY + PARKING CENTER at Atlantic Ave and the Florida East Coast in San Marco, this view is looking South by Southeast.
When these things start to show symptoms of life, we must get our downtown distribution systems up to speed. Now rather then reinvent the Skyway, I'd say a simple group of short extensions would allow it to be more then a parking lot shuttle.
If passengers could Access San Marco - WEST - of the always blocked railroad, we could build another Rosa Parks like center at ATLANTIC and THE FEC RY...
This one station would be a model for the others, parking lot (over the railroad?), Commuter Rail Station, Amtrak Station, Skyway Terminal, JTA Southside hub, BRT, and perhaps streetcar or trolley bus. I believe it could be done with a simple double track beamway, (LIKE DISNEY, VEGAS, and EVERYPLACE ELSE). It would add one mile to the Skyway, but it would access thousands of people at a transportation feeding station. Then shoot for duplication at the Stadium/Randolph (which could be phased - BOA Tower - Newnan/Hyatt - BERKMAN/Police etc... Do it again at FCCJ downtown (a whoping 300 yard extension onto the campus) and again phase by phase at Blue Cross/Fidelity. At this extent the Skyway would be able to operate when a rare tropical storm floods downtown up to BAY STREET. We'd still be mobile. It would also provide an alternate choice as a part of a grid of assorted modes.
If I were King of JTA, the diesel Bus would be shortly banned from downtown, Streetcars / Skyway / Hybrid BRT / Motor Coaches / Trolley Buses would provide a mini version of any world city. Right now we could do this just for the asking. The President, Vice President, Congress, Senate, and Duval delegation are all poised to strike a blow for Jacksonville. Now is the best time we'll probably ever see to make a very grand system come together. OCKLAWAHA
QuoteMann then offers an imposing list of cities in which planned LRTs are being built or planned. "Light-rail systems are presently being built in Buffalo, N.Y., and San Diego, Calif., and planned for Portland, Ore; San Jose, Calif.; Denver, Col.;; Baltimore, Md.; Dayton, Ohio; Sacramento, Calif.; and Vancouver, British Columbia.
I wonder how successful these cities have been since 1981? Daily ridership numbers, 27 years later.
Daily riders - System name - Completion Date - City - System length107,600 Max Light Rail/Portland Streetcar (1986) - Portland - 44 miles of light rail and streetcar lines
103,900 San Diego Trolley (1981) - San Diego - 53.5 mile light rail system
68,800 The Ride Light Rail (1994) - Denver - 35 mile light rail system
60,500 Sacramento RTD light rail (1987) - Sacramento - 36.9 mile light rail system
34,400 Santa Clara VTA light rail (1987) - San Jose - 42.2 mile light rail system
33,600 Baltimore light rail (1992) - Baltimore - 30 mile light rail system
26,300 Buffalo Metro Rail (1984) - Buffalo - 6.4 mile light rail system
1,700 Jacksonville Skyway (2000) - Jacksonville - 2.5 mile APM system* Dayton is not listed because they never went through with anything.link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Light_Rail_systems_by_ridership
QuoteYou are correct, I would love to take you up on your suggestion for the TV event. Is it a crime to want to see the $ky-high-way dismantled? I think my reasons for this have been made clear. Is this any more a fantasy than that of many to expand it to the far corners of town?
First... the thing exists... it functions. Its problem is it does not connect properly to destinations or other forms of transit. Nearly all proposals for mass transit on this site call for using the skyway as a small piece of an efficient and integrated system.
IF it was to be expanded, several logical short extensions have been proposed. That is all. I do not recall any proposals to expand it to
"the far corners of town."
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 14, 2009, 09:25:00 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
1: The cost of buying air rights or the small strip of property necessary to build an elevated railway is nowhere NEAR the cost of razing the 100ft wide swath you'd need for a traditional multi-track railway. It would be NOWHERE CLOSE.
There is nothing to buy for Light Rail, Streetcar or Skyway expansion, the rights-of-ways are already owned by the city.
Did you look at my list of additions/extensions?
Then where in residential Riverside and San Marco, where in Gate Corporate Park, and where at the beaches, and where at Gateway Mall, Regency, Avenues, and Orange Park, does the city already have sufficient rights of way for a ground-based multi-track setup, stations, and parking?
They don't.
My point about extending an elevated system was to minimize the footprint. Despite any other drawbacks you mention, you must admit EL's have a smaller footprint than traditional setups, and so it follows the land cost would be exponentially cheaper in denser neighborhoods with high property values. Outside of those areas, it could certainly run on the ground. I'm suggesting a comprehensive system, not a trick-pony to impress tourists, that only goes 3 miles.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 14, 2009, 09:25:00 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
2: Like every other elevated railway, except for Disney and Jacksonville (LOL!) Chicago's is part of a larger rail system. In areas where land is easier to obtain, it runs on the ground. Where land is scarce, it's elevated to minimize it's footprint. That's the whole point. I see no reason why we couldn't design a dual-purpose train that can run on an elevated as well as ground tracks. Trains can go uphill you know...
There would be no need to reinvent the wheel here. Most any off the shelf train equipment could climb a grade onto an elevated structure, but the costs become astronomical. Rather than some hi-tech modern transit cure-all, the monorail concept â€" as William D. Middleton's Metropolitan Railways: Rapid Transit in America reveals â€" predates electric street railways, the predecessor of light rail, by at least ten years. The fact that streetcars, light rail, interurbans, and other conventional forms of dual-rail urban transit (subways, elevated, etc.) proliferated everywhere in the world beginning in the late nineteenth century to the present day, while monorail systems remain few and far between, says a great deal about the relative versatility, suitability, reliability, and cost-effectiveness of traditional dual steel-rail technology.
I'm not caught up on the monorail thing at all. I've already said, scrap it, and modify the elevated tracks to accommodate another type of train. My point was, expanding the skyway to be a true EL system that serves the entire city would make it useful and useable.
Adding two or three more stops so the current skyway system extends a whopping 4 miles instead of 3 miles or whatever it is now, is not going to make it useable. It needs to be a real system that connects the populous parts of the city. The current setup is utterly ridiculous, I could almost walk from one stop to another faster than waiting for the train. Not that I would, since I'm lazy, I'd drive. But still...you get the idea.
Scrap the monorail, and make it into a real EL that goes somewhere people need/want to go. That, I'd use.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 14, 2009, 09:25:00 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
3: I know what the current trains are, and that's why I've already said we need new ones. You could easily mount steel rails to the existing elevated cement rail lines, at a minimal cost. The main cost is pouring all that concrete. Redesign the trains, and add tracks if you want. That prolly wouldn't be that expensive.
History has shown that Monorail can't really compete with steel wheel on steel rail at grade. If Monorail could compete in costs, speeds, capacity, we would have built a nation wide Monorail system rather then a steel wheel/rail system. Why?
This is the reason we need to complete the Skyway to logical end points using a rather simple formula. Locate the dense residential, office, factory's, employers, restaurants, entertainment places and lay out the Skyway extensions so that each leg has some of each of those elements. People travel for a different experience then the one they are experiencing at the present moment in the space time continuum. A teen might travel from Condo to Candy Shop to School each day. But that same teen is not highly likely to go from School to School, Office to Office, etc...
I believe you on that. So scrap the monorail then. Or, get trains like Seattle's, where it's actually useable. Seattle's monorail is great, it's quick, connects the city with other areas, etc. I don't know what it costs to operate vs. a traditional ground-based setup, but it works for them. In any event, I'm not caught up on the monorail concept, it can be a regular EL, it just needs to be useable. And it's not.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 14, 2009, 09:25:00 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
4: The whole point of this thread is asking for opinions on what would make the skyway viable. I gave my opinion. Nothing I have said is at all impossible. It's all perfectly feasible, and already exists exactly as I'm describing it in other cities, as I've pointed out and given examples, like Seattle.
Actually the whole point of this thread is to see where we can get, NAME, ADDRESS, TYPE OF BUSINESS, VENUE, RESIDENCE. Only then can we at MJ offer to help JTA plan short logical extensions of the Skyway that would convert it from running from a Garage to a Bus Stop, into a real destination grabber. Name a building, help build a list, let's pool our knowledge... I think we got hijacked!
First, I provided exactly that. A list of locations and names that it should connect. We only got off onto this tangent, when lakelander started saying how it could never work, and I had to point out examples of other places where they've already done the same thing and it works fine.
And your original post was pretty clear, in that you WERE asking for opinions on system changes:
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 12, 2009, 04:55:00 PM
A new prospective and maybe a new type of post. We're always talking about how the Skyway misses the mark and I'm thinking which marks?
and,
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 12, 2009, 04:55:00 PM
What major employment, school or residential centers does the Skyway miss? I would say name anything more the a block away, and in some cases such as FCCJ its cut off by a virtual freeway.
You can add any new or unknown route idea if you can justify the traffic potential and name the buildings.
You will note, I provided exactly what you asked, a list of areas/locations the skyway should serve. No hijack, I simply responded to your original question.
and,
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 12, 2009, 04:55:00 PM
I counting on you good people to come up with a list, I'm thinking simple like the following example, or invent your own list:
And that's exactly what I did.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 14, 2009, 09:25:00 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 14, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
5: I got your point, I just disagreed with it. That doesn't mean I don't understand it.
No problem man. Elevated rail and subways are the most expensive types of railroad construction. Likewise JTA's original BRT-Quickway designs we're even more expensive then elevated or subway rail, and when all was said and done, all we would have to show for it was a few more miles of highways, and a handful of new buses. Not exactly the stuff dreams are made of.
I was talking to lakelander when I said that, not you.
And as to subways, I'm not sure we could even build one here, I think you'd have groundwater issues. But as to an EL, I think that's entirely possible, and further I think it's actually necessary in areas like RS and SM, where the population density is high and the land acquisition cost for building stations etc. is high. With an EL, you could have parking underneath, and the tracks could go over and around things rather than just demolishing them.
In any event, those are my thoughts. I'm sorry if you don't like them, but you did ask for them.
QuoteBut as to an EL, I think that's entirely possible, and further I think it's actually necessary in areas like RS and SM, where the population density is high and the land acquisition cost for building stations etc. is high. With an EL, you could have parking underneath, and the tracks could go over and around things rather than just demolishing them.
To rebuild the skyway into the EL just to run into Riverside & San Marco would be grossly overkill. Both neighborhoods really only need a people mover system like a street car, trolley or skyway.
I think the majority here are saying a light rail system like the EL is needed for longer lines and they don't have to be up high but instead on the tracks that already run through NE FL.
OCK would it be possible to run the skyway from the current track down to street level and operate in the median strip?
If so, why not just lower it say Convention Center Station - extend it up Park St. turning east on Post St. to Riverisde Ave (near the Cummer / RAM ) maybe becoming elevated again at the parking garage at Fidelity before heading back to downtown and Central Station.?
Boston is another example, Schwaz. In the high density areas, it runs underground, but it comes up in areas where it can. We can't do a subway here, but an EL works nicely.
In Brookline, the T actually runs down the median of Mass Ave and Brookline St., just as you're describing.
But it's a UNIFIED rail system. You don't have to change trains 67 times to go 4 miles. You have maybe 1 or 2 changes, at MOST, to go where you need to go, over long distances
If we do this piecemeal thing, where you have a skyway, buses, ground trains, etc., etc., nobody is ever going to use it because it will take LONGER than just walking or driving, and because it's just a plain hassle.
Nobody in this thread is acknowledging that public transport is a direct competitor to the automobile. The only people who use public transport around here are the people who can't afford cars, because the system is so FUBAR that nobody in their right mind would use it if they didn't have to.
For a system to be successful, it actually must have some advantage over driving. This is exactly why railroads died out in the first place, because the interstate highway system was built. So for this to work, it needs to be faster, cheaper, and more convenient than driving, or at least 2 out of those 3. Otherwise, it'll just be another giant flop.
So you can't have 17 different modes of transport, with 10 bus/train/skyway changes to get anywhere, or nobody will use it. It needs to be integrated, and as seamless as possible. Yes, it will be expensive. But cheaping out and combining light rail with buses, with the skyway, with whatever, will be a complete waste, because you'll just wind up with one more thing that nobody uses.
Multimodal transit is fine. Many different systems can be fine if you work from a cohesive master plan that contributes to an easy commute. Commuter rail and urban distribution systems accomplish different things.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 15, 2009, 07:42:13 AM
QuoteYou are correct, I would love to take you up on your suggestion for the TV event. Is it a crime to want to see the $ky-high-way dismantled? I think my reasons for this have been made clear. Is this any more a fantasy than that of many to expand it to the far corners of town?
First... the thing exists... it functions. Its problem is it does not connect properly to destinations or other forms of transit. Nearly all proposals for mass transit on this site call for using the skyway as a small piece of an efficient and integrated system. IF it was to be expanded, several logical short extensions have been proposed. That is all. I do not recall any proposals to expand it to "the far corners of town." or "Universe."
The liability deal does indemnify CSX to a large extent. It's the same deal that's in place in 23 other rail cities across the country, including Miami. Supporters say Tampa and Jacksonville would need and get similar deals if they ever wanted a rail system.
The money being used for CSX comes from a transportation trust fund. Jeb Bush put 1.5 billion into that find during the years the state was flush with cash. The object was to get local dollars into road and transit projects. Once a local government came up with the money, the state would then use this trust fund to pay most of the project cost. This trust fund could be raided for education dollars in Legislators desired.
Backers of Sunrail are pushing this as a jobs program at a time when the economy desperately needs it. They say the train will create 133 thousand jobs within 4 months of approval.
What is the real cost of commuter rail? The total so far is 1.2 billion in federal, state, and local money. That total includes all of the upgrades on CSX tracks in the state. Dockery claims the t9total is much higher, nearly 2.7 billion. That total includes all interest payments, and the operating costs for the system once local governments have to start running in after 2017. We have not used those numbers. When you buy a car or house, you basically use the price tag of either item, not the price tag, plus all the interest you will pay over the life of the loan.
My opinion toward this Skyway system of ours has changed now that JTA is finally merging it's operations into a multi-modal system. With the word "Multi" in it, justification is fed by inter-modal relations, one mode to the next. It will work, but it MUST be tied to a general plan for mobility once Commuter Rail has discharged it's passenger loads. OCKLAWAHA
Chris, I've been to both Chicago and Boston and understand what you're saying about multi-modal being less attractive but I'm not so sure LRT with the tracks already in place would be inconvenient at all.
We can run LRT from all over into a main downtown location (convention center) and then use the skyway (current train & model) with extensions as a loop encompassing both DT and the local neighborhoods.
Once you're in the neighborhoods jumping a trolley, streetcar or bus is no problem.
QuoteOCK would it be possible to run the skyway from the current track down to street level and operate in the median strip?
If so, why not just lower it say Convention Center Station - extend it up Park St. turning east on Post St. to Riverisde Ave (near the Cummer / RAM ) maybe becoming elevated again at the parking garage at Fidelity before heading back to downtown and Central Station.?
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 15, 2009, 12:15:31 PMMultimodal transit is fine.
Only to a point. When it is so fragmented as to become unusable...it will be unused.
By your logic, the skyway would already be a success, since you can connect to buses, right? But it's not, because it's a hassle.
Quote from: Shwaz on April 15, 2009, 12:51:46 PM
Chris, I've been to both Chicago and Boston and understand what you're saying about multi-modal being less attractive but I'm not so sure LRT with the tracks already in place would be inconvenient at all.
We can run LRT from all over into a main downtown location (convention center) and then use the skyway (current train & model) with extensions as a loop encompassing both DT and the local neighborhoods.
Once you're in the neighborhoods jumping a trolley, streetcar or bus is no problem.
QuoteOCK would it be possible to run the skyway from the current track down to street level and operate in the median strip?
If so, why not just lower it say Convention Center Station - extend it up Park St. turning east on Post St. to Riverisde Ave (near the Cummer / RAM ) maybe becoming elevated again at the parking garage at Fidelity before heading back to downtown and Central Station.?
I agree, but it's a balancing act.
It can be multimodal, sure, but only to a point. You will get to the point where, if it's designed to take 2 buses, 3 trains, and a skyway ride to go 5 miles, then nobody will use it. Everybody always forgets, this thing has competition. It's not the only game in town. If it's enough hassle, people will just hop in the car. It needs to be competitive...
In Boston, the T can be FASTER than driving if you live in the burbs, and you can get almost anywhere changing trains 1 time (or none). The areas that are only served by bus are some of the most unpopular places, real estate agents will actually warn you not to buy there because there's no T stop.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 15, 2009, 01:33:19 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 15, 2009, 12:15:31 PMMultimodal transit is fine.
Only to a point. When it is so fragmented as to become unusable...it will be unused.
By your logic, the skyway would already be a success, since you can connect to buses, right? But it's not, because it's a hassle.
Chris, I agree completely with your comments on this. This is a big wedge between I and Ock and Lake about the viability of sustaining/expanding the $ky-high-way. Regardless of the final system configuration, I too have serious doubts about why and who would commute from the suburbs and transfer to the $ky-high-way for the last mile or so. Or, why in-town people would prefer this over buses, street cars, taxis, biking, or just plain walking.When in NY, subject to weather and time, I think nothing of walking 5, 10, 20, or 40 city blocks vs. locating, waiting, paying for,, and taking a subway or even a bus. It's nice to know they are there if you see a need, but once you get to walking a couple of blocks, walking a few more gets easier and easier. With the limitations to how close the $ky-high-way can get to most destinations, I think users will be getting use to walking real quick.
I see time, physical, and psychological obstacles to the average person jumping through all these hoops. Will some people tolerate it - sure. You can always find a few to put up with anything. Put not nearly enough will consider it to justify expanding or maintaining the $ky-hihg-way. Add, that I think other modes can do the job far better and be more street and neighborhood friendly to development and lifestyle, and I just don't see why this thing should continue to exist. That's just my opinion but I think history here and elsewhere is more on my side than not.
Quote from: stjr on April 15, 2009, 02:23:12 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 15, 2009, 01:33:19 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 15, 2009, 12:15:31 PMMultimodal transit is fine.
Only to a point. When it is so fragmented as to become unusable...it will be unused.
By your logic, the skyway would already be a success, since you can connect to buses, right? But it's not, because it's a hassle.
Chris, I agree completely with your comments on this. This is a big wedge between I and Ock and Lake about the viability of sustaining/expanding the $ky-high-way. Regardless of the final system configuration, I too have serious doubts about why and who would commute from the suburbs and transfer to the $ky-high-way for the last mile or so. Or, why in-town people would prefer this over buses, street cars, taxis, biking, or just plain walking.
Because you would have no other transit choice to get around to DT areas where the skyway serves from the JTC. Taking a commuter rail train from Orange Park to the JTC and transferring to the skyway to access the Southbank or City Hall, for example, would be no different from catching a NJ transit commuter rail train in Paterson and transferring to another train in Secaucus to access Manhattan. I could understand if we were talking about trips that take a ton of transfers, but we're literally complaining about one transfer stop. No matter what modes are selected in Jacksonville, an extensive mass transit system will include tranfers. That's pretty common in any major city you go to.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 15, 2009, 10:39:11 AM
First, I provided exactly that. A list of locations and names that it should connect. We only got off onto this tangent, when lakelander started saying how it could never work, and I had to point out examples of other places where they've already done the same thing and it works fine.
Not exactly true. I said extending the Skyway all across the city would be impractical. I was confused since you keep referring to the EL, which is a heavy rail system. Now I see you're actually talking about retrofitting skyway, replacing it with another transit technology (heavy rail?) and extending the elevated support structures all over town similar to Miami's Metrorail. This is doable, but we'll need to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow to fund it. Ultimately, the suggestion of spending billions on elevated rail in an anti-transit state would sink the idea pretty quick. I'm sure, we'll continue to disagree with this, but there are cheaper/better transit solutions out there.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2009, 02:52:51 PM
Not exactly true. I said extending the Skyway all across the city would be impractical. I was confused since you keep referring to the EL, which is a heavy rail system. Now I see you're actually talking about retrofitting skyway, replacing it with another transit technology (heavy rail?) and extending the elevated support structures all over town similar to Miami's Metrorail. This is doable, but we'll need to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow to fund it. Ultimately, the suggestion of spending billions on elevated rail in an anti-transit state would sink the idea pretty quick. I'm sure, we'll continue to disagree with this, but there are cheaper/better transit solutions out there.
I agree with your assessment of the costs and the voter distaste for spending even $1 on public transit. Most people view it as 'welfare' or as a 'social service' which may as well be a 4-letter word around here.
But at the same time, you can't half-ass this thing if you ever want it to really take off. Nobody is going to ride a ground rail system that doesn't connect to anything useful because you can't get land near enough to where anybody lives to make it convenient, any more than they'll ride a skyway that isn't connected to anything.
And anything that involves a bus, you may as well just scratch off the list right now. If someone's going to pay to sit in traffic, they'll just do it in their own car. This thing has to be useable, fast, and above all convenient, or it will just be one more thing nobody uses.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 15, 2009, 01:33:19 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 15, 2009, 12:15:31 PMMultimodal transit is fine.
Only to a point. When it is so fragmented as to become unusable...it will be unused.
By your logic, the skyway would already be a success, since you can connect to buses, right? But it's not, because it's a hassle.
You lost the context when quoting me I prefaced my comment as needing to be a part of good master plan. The Skyway is not part of such a plan but could be. Buses will not do as a commuter choice that brings the community to transit we all know about bus stigma in places that do not already have good transit.
I do think you make a good point that if your multimodal system is too much of a hassle that will hurt it's success. I have started to wonder if the skyway would be more of a success as a smaller(sorry everyone) system. Without the convention center line you could quickly travel from the southbank to Hemming. Central station just slows down too much. The best thing that would boost the ridership numbers would be turnstiles that work sometimes you have no choice but to squeeze around them.
Quote from: Shwaz on April 15, 2009, 12:51:46 PM
OCK would it be possible to run the skyway from the current track down to street level and operate in the median strip?
If so, why not just lower it say Convention Center Station - extend it up Park St. turning east on Post St. to Riverisde Ave (near the Cummer / RAM ) maybe becoming elevated again at the parking garage at Fidelity before heading back to downtown and Central Station.?
This would be doable, but it would take a great deal of planning. Please understand that there is no way to build a railroad crossing over a monorail track. Remember the Monorail wraps around and hugs the beam.
But that said, it IS VERY POSSIBLE to get the monorail on the ground, provided it is fenced off with tall fences topped with security wire. Track third rail current generally runs from 600 volts DC to 13,000 AC. Needless to say, if you were a kid who cut into the fence, it would probably be the last thing you ever did. This is also why the Skyway has those God awful alarms that sound if one steps or leans past the "yellow line" or "boarding gate" before a train is in the station.
Your idea has already been delivered to JTA. It's something I'd like to see in the end point stations of the Skyway. San Marco at the FEC RY for example the Skyway would flyover the tracks behind the JEA electrical switching gear, then follow the tracks south to Atlantic. Just before the station the Skyway would come down to ground level, so that we would have a cross-platform transfer from Commuter Rail to Skyway to bus. Frankly this is how ALL multi-modal stations should work.
QuoteI agree, but it's a balancing act.
It can be multimodal, sure, but only to a point. You will get to the point where, if it's designed to take 2 buses, 3 trains, and a skyway ride to go 5 miles, then nobody will use it. Everybody always forgets, this thing has competition. It's not the only game in town. If it's enough hassle, people will just hop in the car. It needs to be competitive...
[/quote]
Quote from: stjr on April 15, 2009, 02:23:12 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 15, 2009, 01:33:19 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 15, 2009, 12:15:31 PMMultimodal transit is fine.
Only to a point. When it is so fragmented as to become unusable...it will be unused.
By your logic, the skyway would already be a success, since you can connect to buses, right? But it's not, because it's a hassle.
Chris, I agree completely with your comments on this. This is a big wedge between I and Ock and Lake about the viability of sustaining/expanding the $ky-high-way. Regardless of the final system configuration, I too have serious doubts about why and who would commute from the suburbs and transfer to the $ky-high-way for the last mile or so. Or, why in-town people would prefer this over buses, street cars, taxis, biking, or just plain walking.
When in NY, subject to weather and time, I think nothing of walking 5, 10, 20, or 40 city blocks vs. locating, waiting, paying for,, and taking a subway or even a bus. It's nice to know they are there if you see a need, but once you get to walking a couple of blocks, walking a few more gets easier and easier. With the limitations to how close the $ky-high-way can get to most destinations, I think users will be getting use to walking real quick.
I don't think there is any large wedge between our positions, just misconceptions over a dream. Allow me a second to look into my crystal ball:
DEFINE MULTI-MODAL in JACKSONVILLE:
RAIL:
Using what we ALREADY have, getting Amtrak to expand first, which includes upgrading track and sidings as well as several station platforms.
Get Amtrak back downtown and convert the Jacksonville Terminal back into the grand old station of the South.
COMMUTER RAIL: Rail Cars (BUDD RDC's) running on the CSX "S" Line West, "A" Line South, "FEC RY South", and COJ-CSX North. 30 minute headways.
Jacksonville-Airport -Yulee
Jacksonville-Avenues-St. Augustine
Jacksonville-Orange Park- Green Cove Springs
Jacksonville-Baldwin-Starke-Gainesville
STREETCAR:
Running through the classic historical close-in and dense neighborhoods, these streetcars would replace several bus routes, either vintage cars (restored) and/or replica cars. The streetcar system would use many hundred volunteers a plan that has worked all over the country. Headways would vary, but still be close to 15 minutes. Look for these from GATEWAY, SPRINGFIELD, NORTH SPRINGFIELD, DURKEEVILLE, DOWNTOWN, FAIRFIELD, LA VILLA, BROOKLYN, RIVERSIDE, AVONDALE, FAIRFAX, ORTEGA, SAN MARCO, SAN JOSE, ST. NICHOLAS. The initial phase would be downtown at the edge of Springfield, South to the Hyatt, West on Water to Union Terminal, South on Park to 5-Points/Park and King.
TROLLEY BUS:
Along with Skyway and Streetcars, the Trolley Bus system would become a fixed route system that would replace the current downtown PCT Trolleys (Potato-Chip-Trucks). By doing this the current "PCT Trolleys" could be made into artificial reefs.
CITY BUS: Headways would be tightened as the streetcars, Trolley Buses and Skyway took, over and cleaned up downtown. Sidewalk cafes could rejoice and expand. Many buses displaced by the new transit modes, would allow more community bus trips and more frequent arrivals or departures.
EXPRESS BUS: Diamond Lane, HOV bus and carpool restricted for longer JTA park and ride commuter bus routes.
DELUXE COACH: For the long routes to the professional neighborhoods of the Beaches, Putnam, Nassau, St. Johns, Clay, express motor coaches with deluxe features, Restroom, Coffee, Wi-FI etc...
What will NOT happen is multiple transfers between multiple modes. Most transfers would be "cross platform" style. Typical commute would be take the train downtown from Green Cove Springs. At Jacksonville Terminal, breakfast in the restaurant, then on to the Skyway, to travel to City Hall. OCKLAWAHA
BTW, Subway is completely possibe if we only had the population density for it.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 15, 2009, 03:52:58 PM
I agree with your assessment of the costs and the voter distaste for spending even $1 on public transit. Most people view it as 'welfare' or as a 'social service' which may as well be a 4-letter word around here.
But at the same time, you can't half-ass this thing if you ever want it to really take off. Nobody is going to ride a ground rail system that doesn't connect to anything useful because you can't get land near enough to where anybody lives to make it convenient, any more than they'll ride a skyway that isn't connected to anything.
I agree. While I don't think land acquisition will be a major problem in Jax, any type of system will fail if it does not connect where people live and want to go.
QuoteAnd anything that involves a bus, you may as well just scratch off the list right now. If someone's going to pay to sit in traffic, they'll just do it in their own car. This thing has to be useable, fast, and above all convenient, or it will just be one more thing nobody uses.
Every American mass transit system involves a bus at some level. Outside of the major cities, rail would fail without bus feeders complementing rail spines. Imo, Jax is going to have to start small (we can't bring rail to the entire city overnight) and work its way up ladder with expansions like Salt Lake City has done. This means it will be critical to select an initial corridor that has high appeal with the area of town it will serve. Because it's success or failure will determine future expansion possibilities.
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 15, 2009, 04:17:03 PMI have started to wonder if the skyway would be more of a success as a smaller(sorry everyone) system. Without the convention center line you could quickly travel from the southbank to Hemming. Central station just slows down too much. The best thing that would boost the ridership numbers would be turnstiles that work sometimes you have no choice but to squeeze around them.
I can't remember who mentioned it, but the skyway's service would be better if they had two distinct lines instead of three. One should run back and forth between the convention center and Central Station. The main line should run from FCCJ to Kings Avenue. This along with fixing the turnstiles would be a huge improvement.
QuoteBut that said, it IS VERY POSSIBLE to get the monorail on the ground, provided it is fenced off with tall fences topped with security wire. Track third rail current generally runs from 600 volts DC to 13,000 AC. Needless to say, if you were a kid who cut into the fence, it would probably be the last thing you ever did. This is also why the Skyway has those God awful alarms that sound if one steps or leans past the "yellow line" or "boarding gate" before a train is in the station.
What about building it 6' to 8' off the ground instead of 20'? I imagine at 13' + the skyway could travel straight through intersections with vehichles being able to pass underneath.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2009, 02:39:19 PM
Because you would have no other transit choice to get around to DT areas where the skyway serves from the JTC. Taking a commuter rail train from Orange Park to the JTC and transferring to the skyway to access the Southbank or City Hall, for example, would be no different from catching a NJ transit commuter rail train in Paterson and transferring to another train in Secaucus to access Manhattan. I could understand if we were talking about trips that take a ton of transfers, but we're literally complaining about one transfer stop. No matter what modes are selected in Jacksonville, an extensive mass transit system will include tranfers. That's pretty common in any major city you go to.
Lake, I think "lack of choice" is a fallacy of the proponent's arguments. People always have choices. In this case, they could just avoid Downtown altogether. Then the entire issue is mute. I did concede there are always a few people and/or circumstances that may encourage intermodal transfers, but, this MO being far less desirable, I don't think there will be enough to justify expansion or maintenance intentions.
I think behavioral scientists (and common sense) will tell you nature and people mostly take the path of least resistance. Just watch people leave a sidewalk for the dirt when it provides a more direct path. (Quick story: Upon touring Florida Atlantic University, they related that they put in NO sidewalks between buildings on campus for a year. The let people walk wherever they chose. After the year, they poured the sidewalks wherever the beaten paths were!)
Alternative choices and less hassle are the REAL reasons I see the $ky-high-way not exceeding 10% of its 20 year old projections even with an enlarged universe. The experts' (not me, Ock!) theories didn't properly account for these realities IMHO.P.S. Comparisons to mega-cities like New York and Chicago should not be weighted as much here. Due to their far larger sizes, their "choices" and "hassle thresholds" have much different benchmarks.
Quote from: stjr on April 15, 2009, 04:57:03 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2009, 02:39:19 PM
Because you would have no other transit choice to get around to DT areas where the skyway serves from the JTC. Taking a commuter rail train from Orange Park to the JTC and transferring to the skyway to access the Southbank or City Hall, for example, would be no different from catching a NJ transit commuter rail train in Paterson and transferring to another train in Secaucus to access Manhattan. I could understand if we were talking about trips that take a ton of transfers, but we're literally complaining about one transfer stop. No matter what modes are selected in Jacksonville, an extensive mass transit system will include tranfers. That's pretty common in any major city you go to.
Lake, I think "lack of choice" is a fallacy of the proponent's arguments. People always have choices. In this case, they could just avoid Downtown altogether. Then the entire issue is mute. I did concede there are always a few people and/or circumstances that may encourage intermodal transfers, but, this MO being far less desirable, I don't think there will be enough to justify expansion or maintenance intentions.
Let me further define. Everyone has a choice and not all commuters will be traveling to downtown. However, those that do, should not have multiple transit modes traveling to the same destination, if we're trying to stretch out our limited transit dollars. When I referred to choice, I meant in a transit sense. "If" the skyway is to become a part of a regional transportation plan, it would not make sense to provide transit options that parallel and compete with it for riders. That would be foolish on Jacksonville's part and a waste of financial resources that could be used to improve transit options in areas outside of downtown. By the same token, its also wasteful to run dedicated busways and commuter rail down the CSX A line corridor. Modes should be set up to feed people into each other instead of competing for the same riders.
QuoteP.S. Comparisons to mega-cities like New York and Chicago should not be weighted as much here. Due to their far larger sizes, their "choices" and "hassle thresholds" have much different benchmarks.
I agree, that's why I normally throw peers like Salt Lake City and Charlotte into the mix (see yesterday's front page article). Take a look at the SLC transit map. Depending on where you are going you may have to transfer between two light rail lines (red & blue) and a commuter rail line (purple). In the future, more light, commuter rail and streetcar lines will be added to the mix. Despite riders having to transfer, depending on their personal start and end points, SLC's systems continue to put up good ridership numbers.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4715-08newrailcarmap.jpg)
(http://www.herronrail.com/Images/Gallery/jaxterm.jpg)
ALL PHOTOS JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL COMPANY - (What Some People Want To Call Jacksonville Transportation Center). NOT!Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2009, 04:44:25 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 15, 2009, 04:17:03 PMI have started to wonder if the skyway would be more of a success as a smaller(sorry everyone) system. Without the convention center line you could quickly travel from the southbank to Hemming. Central station just slows down too much. The best thing that would boost the ridership numbers would be turnstiles that work sometimes you have no choice but to squeeze around them.
I can't remember who mentioned it, but the skyway's service would be better if they had two distinct lines instead of three. One should run back and forth between the convention center and Central Station. The main line should run from FCCJ to Kings Avenue. This along with fixing the turnstiles would be a huge improvement.
(http://www.herronrail.com/Images/Gallery/scle7558b.jpg)
I did Lake, in a thread that hardly was noticed, not even our friends at JTA saw it. Funny because they were talking about this very subject, and I told them a simple track rearrangement would do wonders for the schedules. To work properly in a swing motion both legs of the lines need to be close (but NOT the same length) but not the identical length.
EVERYONE FLIP BACK TO PAGE ONE AND READ THE NEW POSTS TRANSFERED INTO THIS THREAD... THANX[/quote]
Quote from: Shwaz on April 15, 2009, 04:55:07 PM
QuoteBut that said, it IS VERY POSSIBLE to get the monorail on the ground, provided it is fenced off with tall fences topped with security wire. Track third rail current generally runs from 600 volts DC to 13,000 AC. Needless to say, if you were a kid who cut into the fence, it would probably be the last thing you ever did. This is also why the Skyway has those God awful alarms that sound if one steps or leans past the "yellow line" or "boarding gate" before a train is in the station.
What about building it 6' to 8' off the ground instead of 20'? I imagine at 13' + the skyway could travel straight through intersections with vehichles being able to pass underneath.
(http://www.herronrail.com/Images/Gallery/scl568.jpg)
As long as 10-12 feet kept folks from being able to reach it, or if on the ground, security fenced with alarm and lights. The profile could be a gentle undulating ride, raising over roads or creeks and dipping back to the surface between them. Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2009, 06:18:20 PM
Quote from: stjr on April 15, 2009, 04:57:03 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2009, 02:39:19 PM
Because you would have no other transit choice to get around to DT areas where the skyway serves from the JTC. Taking a commuter rail train from Orange Park to the JTC and transferring to the skyway to access the Southbank or City Hall, for example, would be no different from catching a NJ transit commuter rail train in Paterson and transferring to another train in Secaucus to access Manhattan. I could understand if we were talking about trips that take a ton of transfers, but we're literally complaining about one transfer stop. No matter what modes are selected in Jacksonville, an extensive mass transit system will include transfers. That's pretty common in any major city you go to.
Lake, I think "lack of choice" is a fallacy of the proponent's arguments. People always have choices. In this case, they could just avoid Downtown altogether. Then the entire issue is mute. I did concede there are always a few people and/or circumstances that may encourage intermodal transfers, but, this MO being far less desirable, I don't think there will be enough to justify expansion or maintenance intentions.
Let me further define. Everyone has a choice and not all commuters will be traveling to downtown. However, those that do, should not have multiple transit modes traveling to the same destination, if we're trying to stretch out our limited transit dollars. When I referred to choice, I meant in a transit sense. "If" the skyway is to become a part of a regional transportation plan, it would not make sense to provide transit options that parallel and compete with it for riders. That would be foolish on Jacksonville's part and a waste of financial resources that could be used to improve transit options in areas outside of downtown. By the same token, its also wasteful to run dedicated busways and commuter rail down the CSX A line corridor. Modes should be set up to feed people into each other instead of competing for the same riders.
QuoteP.S. Comparisons to mega-cities like New York and Chicago should not be weighted as much here. Due to their far larger sizes, their "choices" and "hassle thresholds" have much different benchmarks.
I agree, that's why I normally throw peers like Salt Lake City and Charlotte into the mix (see yesterday's front page article). Take a look at the SLC transit map. Depending on where you are going you may have to transfer between two light rail lines (red & blue) and a commuter rail line (purple). In the future, more light, commuter rail and streetcar lines will be added to the mix. Despite riders having to transfer, depending on their personal start and end points, SLC's systems continue to put up good ridership numbers.
(http://www.herronrail.com/Images/Gallery/scle7558.jpg)
Okay y'all your resident old transit hippie is hearing cheering words. stjr, I think you didn't get the full depth of study that Lake and myself have done on this subject. The last comments from you sounded like the same lines we shot at JTA in one of the BRT meetings. Then they called US "Flying Monkeys", now they call us for "free consultation". Oh well, go figure.
You are right, JTA has BRT, Commuter Rail, Bus, streetcar and almost ALWAYS the Skyway duplicated route after route and mode after mode. I argued the better part of one of their shows over drawing the Southbank busway, directly underneath the ENTIRE length of the Skyway! When we had another meeting, I asked why they don't bring the buses off the Acosta, turn right in front of Atena, left in front of Baptist Medical Center, and Left again on Gary Street, which I would rebuild as a dedicated busway (there's no longer anything on it). Both lines would end at the Kings Avenue Station. Your right again that choice isn't to see how many vehicles we can collect. It is about picking which system works for each neighborhood. For example it is easy to connect Avondale, Riverside, Springfield, Fairfax and Ortega with vintage Streetcars. God knows you'd probably be shot sticking the Skyway through there. Then again, in area's where gridlock forms at rush hour and nothing moves very well... Let's call it Bay and Main and the bridge is up at 5:15 pm. What a mess. But that short stretch of Skyway from Newnan - BOA - Central Station would cure that every time/any day. Another example is the load factor that comes roaring out of NAS JAX at 4:30 PM. Roosevelt is jammed shut for 2 hours, backing up all the way from St. Johns Avenue to 1/2 way over the Buckman. It would be insane to run the NAS "express" during these hours - but that's what we do. However back in the 1960's Roosevelt was 2 lanes South of the main gate and 4 lanes to St. Johns Avenue. The base had more people on it, when the aviation electronics for the entire armed forces was taught there. How did they manage? Well right across the street from the light at NAS JAX, was the Atlantic Coast Line (CSX A LINE) Depot called Yukon. 17 car Passenger trains from Tampa, made the afternoon flag stop and raced into town leaving the bus, and the autos stuck. In this case the train (Commuter Rail) is far superior, but it still requires a bus circulator on base to link the base with the outside rail station. To get the same effect from a bus, we would need to build a bus freeway known as "BRT QUICKWAY", right alongside the CSX from downtown to Yukon. A two lane highway is much more expensive to build and maintain then a railroad, but BRT they say is "Just like rail only cheaper". When the Quickway opened you could run 17 buses from the base to downtown, but it would take 17 380 HP Dedec Engines, 17 drivers, 17 tanks of fuel, and how will we know that all 17 buses will have fair paying passengers? (We won't).
This is what I mean by stretch the Skyway to logical meet points, adjust the BRT maps, use HOV lanes rather then Quickway. Fill those HOV lanes with school buses, Greyhound, Trailways, JTA and even Taxi's. Get the Rail Terminal back up and running. Get Amtrak home and lobby hard to get the 5 train per route plan operating. Follow with Rail Diesel Cars in Commuter Rail. Meanwhile add streetcar hugging Park St. and Water. Fire the first SOB at JTA that draws the Streetcar, Skyway and Bus on the same street!
NOW! THAT IS CHOICE! MATRIX! AND ECONOMY. OCKLAWAHA
Did anyone notice the skyway's hours of operation where cut starting today. I noticed the signs when I was on the skyway Saturday. It basically looked as though service would stop 2 hours earlier everyday.
Skyway
(Schedule Modified)
Monday-Friday 6 a.m. to 9 p.m.
Saturday 12 p.m. to 7 p.m.
http://www.jtafla.com/News/showPage.aspx?Sel=186
I noticed that as well on Saturday. Way to attract riders, JTA!
what else can you do when you have budget cuts?
This is a problem for transit agencies all over the US....what's even worse is in many cases, these are routes and/or systems that have seen tremendous growth over the last few years.
well, welcome to what the rest of the country is experiencing with transit cuts!
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 04, 2009, 01:08:26 PM
what else can you do when you have budget cuts?
This is a problem for transit agencies all over the US....what's even worse is in many cases, these are routes and/or systems that have seen tremendous growth over the last few years.
TUFSU1 - It's a valid question, but I think we have valid answers. It takes creative thought to make it work, not just expansion but address the things that are missing. Here's a short list of improvements that would cause ridership to spike:
JTA goes with "NEXT BUS" or "GOOGLE BUS" and the real-time information signs at the Skyway stations start showing connections: ..... The Beach Bus BH Five will arrive at the downstairs concourse in 4 minutes.... etc...
Fix the connecting switch from the Southside line to the future stadium line. As is today, the Southside car must hold out until the Jefferson-Rosa Parks arrives or departs.
Food and other vendors in the station plaza's, tables and chairs, sidewalk cafes.
Attended restrooms, hire a homeless guy with a bottle of pinesol and a rag!
Covered walks, Sky Walks, as connectors to nearby buildings.
.10 / .25 cent fare.
Longer hours + cover downtown bar hours.OCKLAWAHA
(http://www.cmhpf.org/greer.jpg)
Standard logic would say to cut back and raise fares. History has proved this is a recipe for failure. Back in the Great Depression, the same thing happened to the Piedmont and Northern Interurban Railway, which served the Charlotte - Greenville area.
It wasn't some big shot executive or a fat cat consultant that came up with a solution, rather a lowly employee. Do the math, he sat down with a pencil and pad and calculated that people still needed to get from point A to B. The only thing a fare increase did is discourage many loyal passengers, forcing them to use an automobile or bus. In the case of the Skyway we have a train that is comfortable with 40 passengers on-board, 20 in each car. When JTA raised the fare, the ridership was cut in half. The crux of the P&N success was the employee wrote the railroads president with a simple question. If we must run the trains anyway, why are we running them with empty seats? Wouldn't filling the seats make more sense? So the railroad slashed fares and suddenly the trains were full. The gross per train soared, not to mention the convenience and traffic relief.
This could be tried on the Skyway, as we have a self contained lab to test the theory. Wouldn't a crowded Skyway bringing in less per passenger, but more overall revenue recovery, be pleasant to see? How well did it work on the P&N? well they survived as an interurban, eventually closed the passenger operation with the rise of parallel highways and converted to diesel power, thrived, and finally merged into CSX! I'd call that success.
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteCentral Station to Metropolitan Stadium
Central Station to Shand's
Central Station to Riverside
Central Station to San Marco
Those lines always made the most sense to me. I don't see why at least one leg could be started. Let the people vote which leg is priority. If I still lived in Jax it would be Riverside ALL DAY!! Jacksonville needs more rail in the core.
QuoteJacksonville needs more rail in the core.
What they need are more people living in the core and that would be downtown. Nowhere for cars to go if you turn the Barnett tower into residential, or the laura trio, so those people would rely on transportation to get around.
QuoteSkyway
(Schedule Modified)
Monday-Friday 6 a.m. to 9 p.m.
Saturday 12 p.m. to 7 p.m.
http://www.jtafla.com/News/showPage.aspx?Sel=186
And Jacksonville continues to walk backwards. :-\ 9pm & 7pm? Its like the city is full of Ned Flanders types.
I still think a Skyway station should be in Riverside. It does not have to go deep into the neighborhood, but Five Points is perfect. It would give everyone in the area easy access. If they build it in 2012, what would the Skyway station be in 2062? would it not be apart of Riverside's history? I don't understand not wanting to build new things in historic areas. Now destroying old buildings for crap like wal greens and mc donalds is lame to me, but building a Skyway Station were NOTHING IS aka the park near the corner of Post & Park is a perfect location. You have the area where Publix is located that didn't ruin the history of Riverside, so why would a Skyway Station ruin the history? Put that trolley stuff some where else. FINISH the system and stop putting things like the St Johns Town Center in stupid locations...you have all that land between Bay, Jefferson & Forsyth, why leave it open?? Backwards, backwards, backwards!!! When gas was going up everyone loved the trains.....I kinda wish it did go to 8 $ a gallon.
Quote from: Coolyfett on May 07, 2009, 05:37:54 AM
Its like the city is full of Ned Flanders types.
It is.
QuoteAnd Jacksonville continues to walk backwards.
Drink the potion Alice in Wonderland, you should run for mayor!
I believe that the Skyway should definitely be expanded. I already made a map of how it would look expanded, with an overlook of the whole system.
The map also includes the Jacksonville-St. Augustine commuter rail, and I will expand it over the coming weeks. It is called Southeast Commuter and High Speed Rail.
The link:
http://www.google.com/maps/user?uid=101304901480923879411&hl=en&gl=us
Quote from: charlestondxman on August 16, 2009, 10:03:08 PM
I believe that the Skyway should definitely be expanded. I already made a map of how it would look expanded, with an overlook of the whole system.
The map also includes the Jacksonville-St. Augustine commuter rail, and I will expand it over the coming weeks. It is called Southeast Commuter and High Speed Rail.
The link:
http://www.google.com/maps/user?uid=101304901480923879411&hl=en&gl=us
Nice maps, and some pretty good comments from everyone. My God MtraininJax, Barnett! Wow we agree again, that's like two for two in recent weeks. Who would have thunk it?
CharlestonDXMan: A couple of comments on your maps. The Skyway is not suited for anything other then just the major core urban area. Pretty much if it fits within the circle of University Blvd and Edgewood Avenue, but more realistically would be: 8Th street north; Myrtle Av., west; Atlantic, south; and the river, east.
Your map indicates the Skyway following the FEC RY south toward St. Augustine, or the Skyway meeting the FEC RY at Atlantic, but then it doesn't show a train into Jacksonville Terminal. ?? ?? ?? Many people on that future commuter train will be heading in other directions when they get off, this is why building the Terminal back in downtown is so vital to our growth. People will get off those trains downtown looking for the BRT to Lem Turner, The outbound A-Line train to NAS Jax/Yukon, or the Beaver Street local bus. The Atlantic stop will likely be the second most busy in the Skyway system on a daily basis (though the stadium stop will probably have the most boardings). But all of these Atlantic passengers are headed either for a southside bus, San Marco/San Jose or a quick Skyway ride into downtown.
A good station at Atlantic and the FEC (WEST OF THE TRACKS - WITH A PEDESTRIAN OVERPASS) will probably take out the paint store, and the first business or two on either side of the tracks. It would function as a small park-and-ride location, and a major intermodal interchange: RAIL, BUS, MONORAIL, BRT.
Looking forward to your next venture...OCKLAWAHA
Clicked on map for Jax but unable to find. Probably wouldn't tell me anything new if Ock says it mirrors previous thinking.
I am beginning to think we may have finally found a value for the $ky-high-way: It's a puzzle waiting to be "solved". Kind of like a crossword or Sodoku. Everyone thinks they can do it and it's entertaining but really not of any value to anyone other than those attempting to solve the puzzle. Too bad this puzzle has no solution (other than its demise) but feel free to keep playing the $ky-high-way puzzle to your heart's delight. A little harmless fun never hurt anyone as long as its not taken too seriously, which, most assuredly, it won't. :D