http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-01-26/story/stadium_bus_service_in_doubt_for_2009 (http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-01-26/story/stadium_bus_service_in_doubt_for_2009)
QuoteStadium bus service in doubt for 2009
Federal regulation might prevent JTA from providing shuttles
By Larry Hannan Story updated at 7:42 PM on Monday, Jan. 26, 2009
A year-old federal regulation could prohibit the Jacksonville Transportation Authority from continuing bus service to football games at Jacksonville Municipal Stadium and lead to higher bus fares under a private company.
The JTA has been providing bus service to Jaguars games since the team’s first season in 1995. It also offers service to the college games.
Although JTA interim mass transit director Bill Powell said the service loses money â€" he couldn’t say how much â€" JTA wants to continue offering it as a public service that lessens congestion on the roads and makes it easier for people to get to the games.
But a Federal Transit Administration regulation that went into effect in May 2008 required private companies to run bus services for sporting events and other special events.
The regulation shut down specialized city bus services last year in Miami, Seattle and Nashville that took people to Dolphins, Seahawks and Titans games.
FTA spokesman Paul Griffo said the purpose of the regulation was to encourage private industry over publicly funded transportation. The penalty for not complying with the regulation is the loss of all federal transportation funding.
Powell said his understanding of the federal regulation is that JTA will be barred from offering bus service if a private company steps up â€" even if that company charges much higher rates. But he doesn’t expect any charter company can make money when JTA can’t.
Griffo said transit companies are required to notify private charters that they can take over the bus service. That must happen before the public transit company gets a waiver to operate the buses, and he said JTA was not granted a waiver for 2008.
Spokesman Mike Miller said Monday that JTA continued operating the service in 2008 because no private company expressed an interest in taking over. Later Monday, he said JTA never contacted private companies and wasn’t required to because it didn’t technically seek a waiver.
Miller said that instead JTA received permission from a regional FTA administrator to operate the service as an extension of its regular daily service. Griffo said late Monday the FTA was reviewing the permission letter.
If a private company is interested, it needs to contact either JTA or the Jaguars, Miller said.
In 2008, it cost $56 for a season pass and $7 for a single game for passengers who boarded the buses from the downtown lots at the Prime Osborn Convention Center and the Kings Avenue parking garage.
A season pass from three suburban lots was $96, or $12 for a single game.
In 2008, 66,481 people rode the bus to 13 events at a cost to JTA of $602,706. To 14 events in 2007, 84,983 people rode at a costs of $562,522. About 80-100 buses are used for each game.
JTA could not say how much revenue had been generated via fares in 2008 but conceded that the service was a significant money loser since it began.
larry.hannan@jacksonville.com
(904) 359-4470
QuotePowell said his understanding of the federal regulation is that JTA will be barred from offering bus service if a private company steps up â€" even if that company charges much higher rates. But he doesn’t expect any charter company can make money when JTA can’t.
I read it the same way and don't think we have a local company with capacity to do it. OCKLAWAHA
Maybe school bus operators?
I don't understand this, the regs went into effect in early 2008. I know the titans bus service and others stopped, but JTA still ran the service in 2008. Why the change now?
Quote from: Lunican on January 26, 2009, 09:47:18 PM
Maybe school bus operators?
Oh my Gosh man, Talk about SUPERBOWL opportunities... CAN YOU IMAGINE?
200 Yellow school buses deliver the crowds to Superbowl 99 in Jacksonville!
YEE HAW Y'ALL - In a league of our own, no other city is even close.
DAMN!
JUST DAMN!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 26, 2009, 09:52:19 PM
Quote from: Lunican on January 26, 2009, 09:47:18 PM
Maybe school bus operators?
Oh my Gosh man, Talk about SUPERBOWL opportunities... CAN YOU IMAGINE?
200 Yellow school buses deliver the crowds to Superbowl 99 in Jacksonville!
YEE HAW Y'ALL - In a league of our own, no other city is even close.
DAMN!
JUST DAMN!
OCKLAWAHA
I've rode on some school buses during the jaguars game and is no big deal, but much more enjoy the city buses
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2364/2233392126_9fcf2c9d73.jpg)
LUNICAN, Your photo of the school buses made me wish we could one-up the crowd and go with a first class Coach Line.... Y'all know that JTA does have a handful of over-the-road coaches right? They are the cheap MCI version with NO perks, but still first class next to a city bus or school hay wagon.
(http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/r_mohr/oct2002/silver_eagle_kings.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
Real private solutions would have a creative company saying you do it one way hear is how we can do it better. Not just saying give us a bad quote we will take it just to say it is private.
In our system of things, and with the FTA ruling, any private company that pony's up to the bar gets the green light.
The idea is sound enough, don't let the entire US Government, State or City compete against the small guy. JTA is the big dog in this and any little dog is going to get the bone. If JTA plays it keepers, then the citizens are going to get taken for a ride with damages in some courtroom.
OCKLAWAHA
Honestly, the regulation does make a lot of sense.
Using public transit to provide game day only service is a pretty blatant subsidy. Especially since the service runs at a loss. It's certainly not the taxpayer's job to provide a cheap ride for the customers of one specific private company. Mass transit is supposed to serve the general population and have stable consistent routes. Many would argue that the government already gives far too much subsidy to sports franchises anyway.
I'm sure the regulation might seem frustrating to someone who is interested in seeing any kind of expanded mass transit. However the regulation is a good long-term measure against fiscal abuse. A real bus route past the stadium that served anyone (regardless of whether it was game day or not) will always be allowed
Joe is correct. Why should we subsidize these routes by letting them run at a loss? If the city wants to get people to the stadium they could come up with some better alternatives.
Skyway?
Trolleys (cable car)?
I realize that isn't going to get people into downtown from other parts of town, but isn't that the bigger issue with our mass transit anyway?
Maybe people could get up bright and early and ride the regular city bus routes into the city then take a trolley from the hub to the stadium. All told I'm sure it wouldn't take more than 4 to 6 hours to get there and 6 to 8 hours to get home.
The IDEAL WAY to do a stadium shuttle would be with our 184 MILLION DOLLAR Stadium shuttle...
The one we never finished.
Skyway with Streetcar on 5 minute headways and close headway regular transit buses would take a huge bite out of this traffic jam.
OCKLAWAHA
But, Ock we would still be running those services at a loss....should we really be provding any service at a loss?
Well public transportation, like the library, parks, etc. typically operates at a loss. However, I think we all agree, these things are important for the community's quality of life. In the long term, with proper planning, one would hope that a fixed transportation system could at least spur infill development along the route. Having development on properties like the Shipyards and current courthouse site would then do a couple of things:
1. It makes the existing transit system more viable.
2. Adds millions to the tax rolls.
3. Makes downtown a more livable and attractive special events.
4. When designed to work first for the community, in general, the extra benefit will be that it can serve special events at JMS, Metropolitan Park, Kids Kampus, the ballpark and the arena when necessary.
If this is done, the cost to implement and maintain is more than offset by the income the community brings in with economic development. With JTA undergoing a system redesign, this conflict provides a good opportunity for the community to really examine the need for a true integrated mass transit system.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/57/160891016_fc560a9a04.jpg?)
Quote from: fsujax on January 27, 2009, 09:09:30 AM
But, Ock we would still be running those services at a loss....should we really be provding any service at a loss?
Provide service at a loss? Your a daisy if you do.
God knows there is a severe shortage of daisy's in Jacksonville.
As Lakelander pointed out, many vital services run at a loss - Heck the John down the hall operates at a loss, but I wouldn't want to live without it. (Tried that in the Andes).
An argument could probably be made that JTB or Atlantic give us some return on investment by opening routes of new trade and commerce. But the extreme stretch of that expansion places an unfair burden on the taxpayer to continuously chase the growth, down an ever expanding roadway, with schools, police, lighting, water, sewers etc... All of this stuff costs of dearly, which makes a clear statement about the desirability of dense development stimulated by streetcar and other fixed route transit.
Lakelander keeps bringing up the notion of livability or walkability and I think most of us don't have a clue what that means in the long term. Just one fringe benefit is we live healthier lives, making for a much more contented society. Imagine that many police in the tightly packed city's of the UK don't even carry a firearm. A hidden savings in a content but livable populous.
Development will still happen but it will look more like a modern version of old 5-Points and San Marco, rather then Kernan or Blanding.
The notion of walking across the street to a restaurant, or bakery has an attraction far more valuable then walking across the local Target Store parking lot. A real hard currency value has been placed on this infill development which follows fixed transit, with every streetcar or LRT project to come on line. Last time I checked the numbers, the new development stimulated by Streetcars were running about $1,200 dollars for EVERY DOLLAR INVESTED.
A loss? Not hardly.OCKLAWAHA
QuoteLakelander pointed out, many vital services run at a loss - Heck the John down the hall operates at a loss, but I wouldn't want to live without it. (Tried that in the Andes).
I don't mind the services being given at a loss. God knows the government runs at a loss (it's just what they do). However I think this issue specifically is that it's seen as another subsidy for the big money grubbing NFL team. I don't agree with that 100% but since we also have bus companies in town for school service why shouldn't they be able to bid for the account to provide service? Or anyone else for that matter.
In a perfect world there would be multiple ways to get downtown, BRT, cable car out Main/Phillips Atlantic, rail out Roosevelt and Normandy, JTB, Blanding etc etc etc .... Jacksonville is basically one big spoke.
.
Quote from: jtwestside on January 27, 2009, 10:47:41 AM
Quote
In a perfect world there would be multiple ways to get downtown, BRT, cable car out Main/Phillips Atlantic, rail out Roosevelt and Normandy, JTB, Blanding etc etc etc .... Jacksonville is basically one big spoke.
.
ALL SPOKES - NO WHEELS
OCKLAWAHA
This should have been cut a loooooooooong time ago. We are too deep in money problems to be spending public money on getting fans to games. They have brains and can figure it out. I do, it isn't as difficult as it's made out to be.
We spend money getting people to games because the communuty makes more money if more people attend the games. The NFL is good for the city.
Tell me how putting people on busses bringing them into downtown to watch a game, then back on a bus back out of downtown is good for the city, or downtown? It doesn't encourage the use of any existing public transportation, doesn't encourage the patronage of any downtown businesses or parks ... So while I may agree with the ambiguous “The NFL is good for the city†it could be a lot better on game days than just shuttling people in and out of downtown.
While a good private bid is best keeping the games on TV and the team in town by any reasonable means to that end helps all of NE Florida not just downtown IMO. JTA shuttles should cater perfectly to out of towners staying in diffrent parts of the core. Without knowing the approximate loss it is hard to say if we are getting bang for our buck.
QuotePrivate operators might provide transportation for football games
JTA hears from companies interested in shuttle service
The public transit agency that has been busing people to football games at Jacksonville Municipal Stadium since 1995 now says it will look for a private company to replace it.
And a federal agency said it is investigating whether the Jacksonville Transportation Authority should have provided the service last year.
Under a ruling that went into effect in April, JTA must cede control of the bus service to a private company even if that company charges higher fares. And JTA can only offer service to games if no private company wants to do it.
Earlier this week, JTA said no companies had come forward. Now, two have.
Annett Bus Lines and American Coach Lines, two Florida charters with offices in Jacksonville, say they are interested. But they said they would need more information before they could commit and stressed they might not have enough buses to do it on their own.
Neither could estimate how much they might charge in fares.
JTA said it would be surprised if anyone wanted to take over the service because private companies would lose money doing it, as JTA said it had every year.
But after the authority reviewed its 2008 books, spokesman Mike Miller said Wednesday that it made a $50,000 profit after losing $120,000 the year before.
full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-01-28/story/private_bus_operators_might_provide_transportation_to_stadium
You may want to watch the story on JTA Making Moves available on the JTA website (see the November show) on this story. It outlines the criteria as to why the FTA started shutting down shuttle services nationwide. Also, it gives shows a map how many other cities actually had to stop the service - not just NFL. Other factors any other company would have to consider - enough buses and available park-n-ride lots. If a company has to pay to lease more vehicles or parking for the customers - both of which JTA already has in abundance - then it may become cost prohibitive.
In Seattle - a company came in and said it could do the service for X amount - and then when it couldn't - their contract was pulled by FTA (and they could face fines). I believe the transit authority is back offer service. So theri may be companies interested - but will anyone be willing to pay $25 a ride to get their. The JTA story suggests not (interviews with some fans).
http://www.jtafla.com/News/showPage.aspx?Sel=43
Quote from: fsu813 on January 27, 2009, 11:03:25 AM
This should have been cut a loooooooooong time ago. We are too deep in money problems to be spending public money on getting fans to games. They have brains and can figure it out. I do, it isn't as difficult as it's made out to be.
No one is suggesting to cut it.
Do you really want all those folks driving into the downtown at once? I can tell you that if we dropped public OR private bus service to the stadiums you wouldn't want to go there! There would be a traffic jam big enough to make the first Mayport Jazz Festival look like a sunday school picnic.
Did someone really question the ridership? Doesn't matter that much if we are having a Jaguars Game or Rollings Stones/Bruce Springstein Concert, or a SUPER BOWL. 20,000 people all driving cars into the city center within an hour or two of each other would be a disaster. 50,000 would be a national emergency! Did you know just for the Super Bowl game alone, we had 450,000 riders on the transit system, over 100,000 on the SKYWAY!
Now someone PLEASE tell me why finishing the Skyway is a bad idea?
Why this bus service should have been cut long ago?
I don't care who provides the bus service, I know Annett and worked with them at Trailways. Y'all would LOVE their equipment over what JTA owns. But you have to wonder if paying $20 dollars each way for the private coach would make you feel more American?
The answer of course would be to build up and provide a downtown transit core with fast frequent regular scheduled services - 24/7. The only way to do that is for City Hall to realize this is only one venue in a string of downtown pearls. Pearls that could be strung together and illuminated setting off a downtown building boom that would shine brighter then the sun.
Wanna Bet? Well we could always move the team to Orlando, hell at LEAST THEY have a Courthouse! (I HATE MICKEY!)OCKLAWAHA
QuoteBut after the authority reviewed its 2008 books, spokesman Mike Miller said Wednesday that it made a $50,000 profit after losing $120,000 the year before.
OK we can end all the debate on should we do it if the JTA has made this kind of progress on the costs. A private bid should now have to make the city more than the $50k a year. Kudos JTA ;)