Regency is going up thats for sure.
You know, Lake, I wonder if a year has been enough time to think about the lessons that Regency could learn from springfield's experience and vice versa.
We started the conversation but it didnt resolve. Wonder what you would think now?
I would think that it would be obvious that zoning is going to be all important. Also to resist the temptation of letting the district become the unofficial red zone in an attempt to contain criminality.
Group homes are pretty obvious.
anything else?
I still think these communities are two different animals due to their style of development. The Regency area would be better suited to learn from other suburban areas like Normandy, Emerson and Baymeadows.
Right now its Anyplace USA with a dying central focal point....Regency Mall. Without that place being renovated in some form or shape (as a mall or a lifestyle center), that entire commercial district will continue to die just like the areas around Normandy Mall, Philips Mall and Gateway when their fortunes changed.
Except Springfield is an urban district with gridded streets, historical building fabric, density, pedestrian friendly setbacks, parks and neighborhood commercial districts. Regency is a suburban area built from the start to accomodate automobile traffic. Because of this, it does not have gridded streets, pedestrian friendly setbacks and its built for regional commercial uses. These developmental differences make them different animals. What may work in Springfield may not work in Regency.
Regency was not Arlington's original commercial area. Arlington's original commercial district was closer to the river, where University and Arlington Road meet. The issues that area faces and has been through are similar to Springfield's Main & 8th Streets.
Regency would be to Arlington what Gateway was to Springfield, Brentwood and New Springfield. A major commercial district on the edge of older communities fueled to life by a regional mall. When that mall begins to die, the complementing commercial base around it declines as well.
Regency's largest problem is its fortunes are based around a dying regional mall. Regency (not Arlington) has no sense of place. There is nothing special to rally and built around outside of that shopping center. On the other hand, Springfield has a sense of place. Neighborhood politics on how to address the centralized commercial district appear to be the larger issue.
QuoteI would think that it would be obvious that zoning is going to be all important. Also to resist the temptation of letting the district become the unofficial red zone in an attempt to contain criminality.
Yes, these are things that should be avoided, but the major concern should be saving (or making over) the district's major anchor. If that is not done, everything else may be a lost case.
This was a result of white flight, abandonment and the city allowing incompatible commercial land uses in the heart of a residential district. These events were widespread throughout the country, so we have a ton of good and bad examples out there to follow.
By the same token, Regency isn't the first commercial district to suffer from a change in retail demographics. There are good and bad examples all across the country and even Jacksonville. For example, Normandy is still trying to recover while the Roosevelt Square, Avenues Mall and Orange Park Mall areas are thriving after their makeovers.
I was in DC this past week. Several inner city DC neighborhoods, similar to Springfield, have come back to life by rallying around centralized mass transit improvements. I believe both Regency and Springfield would see success doing the same. Although San Marco seems to be okay, it would get stronger with decent mass transit, as well.
Transportation is not an end all solution (nothing is), but it can become the catalyst that brings economic development, if planned properly. Transportation enhancements (streetcar and expressway) bought growth originally to Springfield and Regency. Transportation enhancements also lead to what the Southside and Port have become today and what Downtown was a century ago. Both Springfield and Regency would be smart to support the push for a regional mass transit system that brings major stations to their boundaries. This will give them the ability to attract Transit Oriented Development and become larger destinations than they are today.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 23, 2009, 06:19:47 PM
Transportation is not an end all solution (nothing is), but it can become the catalyst that brings economic development, if planned properly.
I agree 100%!
In the long run, there should to be a plan or vision that converts the entire Regency area into a community instead of regional commercial strip.
The suburban development model Regency was created from is one that deteriorates when the newness wears off and is replaced by new trendy competition further down the street. The conversion of dying malls into lifestyle centers (a mix of retail, housing, office and entertainment) has been the big thing over the last decade or so. However, the country's current economic conditions will limit those opportunities as national chains close or put the breaks on expansion. Unfortunately, this can't be done unless General Growth either sells the property or does it themselves. Even if it is done, in a decade or two, the lifestyle center will face the same issue the mall is going through right now.
For long term viability, the entire makeup of that area needs to change from suburban strip mall corridor to a livable mixed-use community. That is where mass transit planning, walkable streets, TODs, travel patterns and rezoning issues will come into play.
I recommend checking out the report from the charette that JaxPride did a few years ago
Unfortunately, the Regency study seems to be about the only one on the JaxPride site that does NOT have a link to the report:
http://www.jaxpride.org/dnn/JaxPridePrograms/JaxPrideCharettes/tabid/67/Default.aspx
I have a pdf copy if someone can tell me how to upload it to this site
Heh - have to wait for one of the Board Gurus for that bit of knowledge.
Paging thelakelander ...
I remember seeing the JaxPride charette somewhere a couple of months ago. Was it ever adopted by the city?
tufsu1, to get your PDF version online, you'll have to save it as jpeg files and upload them to a photo host site (ie. www.photobucket.com). Once on the photo host site, all you have to do is insert the image's web address, with the image tags [ img ] and [ /img ] around it, in your reply box. If this does not work or if its too time consuming, email the file to me and I'll get it online for you.
Does the city ever adopt any of the JaxPride charettes?
I remember seeing it - somewhere - too, I think it called for extending Gilmore Heights Road (that little road that goes behind Home Depot to the north entrance of Regency) south until it meets Atlantic Blvd. at the main entrance - and splitting the mall into four pieces. Hope you can get it online.
I was afraid that was the only way to upload...oh well, here are the 2 main pages from the report
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp191/tufsu1/regency1.jpg)
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp191/tufsu1/regency-2.jpg)
That's a fantastic landuse map. If implemented, that would turn regency into a real "place" with a long term future.
But that's the problem with charettes ... they're just pretty colors on a map. There are a dozen different ways that (fantastic) map violates basic provisions of Jax's zoning code, and probably FDOT's traffic plans as well.
Without a targeted change to Jax's land use policy, something like this can't happen.
Have to ask if I lived in one of those edge of the world residential units would I want to walk a mile to the Mass Transit Hub? With blistering sun, 100 degree heat and humidity - not Freaking likely. So the question changes to where will transit go from those hubs? If up Monument, we're missing most of the "VILLAGE" so which do we screw - residential (which ride buses and streetcars) or retailers (where buses and streetcars go) like Lake has preached, we CAN have both.
This is where someone gets on and says we need a PRT system at Regency-Future.
OCKLAWAHA
what makes you assume that mixed-use is retail? I'm sure the intent is a combination of uses....a good examplke is Mizner Park in Boca Raton.
As for the other comment, some of this can be done under the City's existing zoning code....but there is full-scale re-write of the codes underway....and the primary intent is to encourage/allow places like this.
I thought the intent of the zoning rewrite was to make Paul Harden's life easier.
OK, back to the thread, it would take a major commitment by the owners of the Mall, and the other properties nearby.
Oh, and doesn't the zoning rewrite specify where TODs can be? Just at places JTA has already identified as BRT stops?
In an ideal world there would be a light rail train that would cross over the Mathew's Bridge connecting from downtown. All the land over arlington expressway tunnel (which acts as a north south pedestrian divider and only moves suburbanites quicker toward the beach) would be overlaid with an an urban park and then institute "Regency" as a TOD stop on the way to the final beach TOD stop. Then feed off bus service from these TODs to other points of intersts places like Jacksonville University, Ft. Caroline, etc... Ideally this can happen if we have some good planning!
QuoteRegency Square mall owner hints at bankruptcy
The company that owns Regency Square mall in Jacksonville has warned it might need to seek bankruptcy court protection if it cannot reach agreement with lenders about debt payments due this year.
General Growth Properties, based in Chicago, owns and manages about 200 regional shopping malls, including Regency Square, located off the Arlington Expressway.
General Growth had been trying for weeks to line up agreements from bondholders to get through the rest of 2009 without facing tougher repayment terms on its debt. But General Growth fell short of gaining consent from enough lenders by the company’s deadline of last Friday.
General Growth Chief Executive Officer Adam Metz said in a statement today the company will continue to negotiate with lenders “to address the credit crisis facing the company.â€
General Growth spokesman Jim Graham said the day-to-day operation of Regency Square hasn’t been affected by the company’s debt problems.
“I don’t think customers will experience anything other than the service they know us for,†he said.
He said General Growth hasn’t been planning any major redevelopment at Regency Square, which opened in 1967. He said the company’s spending for building improvements would be tied to new retailers moving to the mall, but in the current economy, retailers are not in an expansion mode.
General Growth is the second-biggest mall company in the country, behind Simon Property Group. Simon has ownership interests in three Northeast Florida malls č St. Johns Town Center and The Avenues on Jacksonville’s Southside, and Orange Park Mall.
Simon Property Group’s stock price today was $30.86 per share compared to General Growth Properties at 55 cents per share.
http://www.jacksonville.com/business/2009-03-30/story/regency_square_mall_owner_hints_at_bankruptcy
Just when it seemed that they were adapting to their changing neighborhood demographics. I guess any business that is carrying a lot of debt is in trouble these days.
Once the recession is over (or before depending on GGP's financial condition), a redeveloper will most likely buy the mall. Regency has potential and a great deal of surrounding residents (shoppers) with room for new rooftops.
There are many mall redevelopers out there who would probably love to buy this mall and redevelop it, but the financing is just not there to do that right now.
I guess we will just wait and see. Let's pray it doesn't turn into another Market Square Mall, Normandy Mall.
Unfortunately, I believe Regency has, in part at least, deteriorated with much of the surrounding Arlington area demographics. Parts of Arlington are now viewed as a suburban slum. It is giving good competition with other areas of town known for vice and murder on the 11:00 news. Even JU, probably the last remaining gem in the area, has recently experienced the ills of Arlington on campus.
What Arlington lacks in large areas is character and a sense of neighborhoods. Evidence includes lots of cheaply built houses, apartments, and ugly and inexpensively built commercial structures. The recently failed conversions of apartments to condos further gutted the area. Outside of the riverside developments along University or Ft. Caroline roads, Hidden Hills, and Queens Harbor, I don't see many islands of improving or stable neighborhoods north of Atlantic Blvd. Most of the commercial corridors look like schlock. Few nicer retail or office complexes of significance, either. So, who would live in the area, if they could afford other choices?
Compounding Arlington's issues is the fact that the Mathews Bridge's height, narrowness, traffic, and singularity have served to intimidate many from considering Arlington as a residential or work option. For years Arlington was subject to paper mill odors wafting over from the Northside. And, it remains impacted by the "views" of the Port, JEA, terminals, and other industrial activity fronting it from across the St. Johns. This too has helped lower the bar for what Arlington could be.
I remember when Regency opened in or around 1967 as one of the top malls in America in sales $$$ per square foot. At the time, there was little in the immediate area except sand dunes left by strip mining, the same as what it was built upon. It mainly thrived because there was nothing else like it in North Florida. I believe the beginning of its decline can actually be traced to Orange Park Mall which actively competed for the growing San Jose, Southside, and Mandarin populations and established itself as more hip and progressive. The Avenues was likely the nail in the coffin, especially being at the opposite end of Southside Boulevard, i.e. taking direct aim at Regency. Its appeal to upscale shoppers left Regency with the leftovers, mostly area residents occupying all that mostly cheap housing.
Regency's downfall and that of the surrounding Arlington area also serve as a great example of the ills of poor planning, zoning, transportation, and urban sprawl. Arlington mostly had the same potential as any other area of town, but was victimized by get-rich-quick development at the expense of everything else. Starting with Regency, which was never easy to access from day one, with the confused and poorly addressed convergence of Atlantic, Southside, and Arlington Xway. Regency's presence just made this problem grow much worse with ever increasing traffic and the bottleneck there probably was the beginning of the decline of Arlington. The flyover was supposed to cure much of this but that obviously didn't work. Neither did the proximity of 9A, the Dames Point Bridge, or the Wonderwood Expressway. This is a good example of how hundreds of millions (billions in today's dollars?) in road building doesn't really solve anyone's problems (are the Outer Beltway proponents listening?) or guarantee economic advancement.
Ironic, if Regency actually contributed to its own demise by helping to destroy the area it so dominated.
Regency is akin to the Normandy area, but closer to the beach. Will never be the same as it was in the 60s and 70s.
Regency Square mall owner General Growth Properties declares bankruptcy
http://www.jacksonville.com/business/2009-04-16/story/regency_square_mall_owner_general_growth_properties_declares_bankruptcy
Well Chapter 11 doesn't sound the end for the mall, they will continue operating.. but it certainly is a sign of the times for that region. 9A and the towncenter were the final straw. People in that area can drive an extra 10 minutes and be down there, why go to Regency.
The whole area is an aesthetic abomination. Let it go to seed and maybe nature will take it back.
GGP has an enormous amount of debt that was to be owed this eyar, and filing for protection was definetly a good thing on their part. Guarantee you they will get rid of under performing properties over the next year or so.
Norwood (Gateway Mall) and Normandy (Normandy Mall) are two good examples of where Regency is headed if the central anchor (the mall) does not receive a makeover. Winter Park's Winter Park Village (former Winter Park Mall) is a good example of what can happen with a makeover.
Winter Park Mall (1960s)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ZbDKf8rNxQU/RpXXrgfXyyI/AAAAAAAAAeg/lcxRNa45lX4/s400/Winter+Park+Mall,+Winter+Park,+FL+c1960.bmp)
Winter Park Village (current)
(http://www.shopwinterparkvillage.net/images/library/WPV-STREETSCAPE-2.JPG)
Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2009, 02:47:12 PM
Norwood (Gateway Mall) and Normandy (Normandy Mall) are two good examples of where Regency is headed if the central anchor (the mall) does not receive a makeover. Winter Park's Winter Park Village (former Winter Park Mall) is a good example of what can happen with a makeover.
Winter Park Mall (1960s)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ZbDKf8rNxQU/RpXXrgfXyyI/AAAAAAAAAeg/lcxRNa45lX4/s400/Winter+Park+Mall,+Winter+Park,+FL+c1960.bmp)
Winter Park Village (current)
(http://www.shopwinterparkvillage.net/images/library/WPV-STREETSCAPE-2.JPG)
Roosevelt Mall, though smaller and less influential to it's area and surroundings, is another example of what can happen to Regency Mall.
Heights Unknown
I don't know if anyone has been in this mall recently, but my fiancee and I were in Regency yesterday. We stopped in on the way to the JU/ODU football game to grab her brother (ODU's 3rd string quarterback aka "Bench Warmer") a birthday gift. The place has gotten much worse than it was just a few months ago.
We strolled up and down the mall and there are more empty places and "entrepeneurial" stores than there are well-known shops. The independently-owned places were almost totally empty. Sears was like a clearance center - are they an outlet now? Some of the sotrefronts were really kind of weird -- one was a church, and one was some kind of indoor blacklight mini-golf type of thing... I guess they're trying, but with zero advertising......
It reminded me of the Market Square mall. I don't see Regency coming back unless and until a new owner steps in, but even then, I don't know that it will help, the Arlington crowd being what it is. We drove over to Target, and it was packed. I think your average Jacksonville mall customer (middle-classers with disposable income and an eye for fashion) are done with Regency and are about done with the Avenues. The value-minded people are at Target and Wal-Mart and the fashion-minded people are at SJTC.
Maybe they should bulldoze it and rebuild Mountaisia. That would be awesome.
^^Does anyone know when that is supposed to happen? Does the company have money? Are they actually pursuing the project? I haven't heard anything new about this project.
^That's not a real project, so never, as long as General Growth Properties is in possession of it.
Oh ok. I actually thought this was really happening, but it honestly doesn't surprise me that it's just a dream.
A blast from the past...
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Jacksonville-Historic/i-zQnQVh8/0/L/Regency-Mall-L.jpg)
I don't think regency & springfield are the same. Springfield was mostly empty for many years, Arlington is one of Jacksonvilles most dense areas:
http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/gallery/9562820_3WdxxK#1625860251_LP9z6fN-A-LB
The problem is the town center opened and major stores moved (Toys r us, barnes and noble) plus the area lost other outlets due to the economy (car dealership at the big corner of atlantic & SS, circuit city).
Sears announced yesterday that they're closing 120 stores, (out of their 2,250), while they haven't announced which locations will close, if it includes the one in regency that half of the mall will be done.
Something needs to happen with regency. A good start would be to convince sears to move to the other half of the mall, and level the west side of the mall. Moving all the stores between JCP & Belk the mall would be full.
I believe the context makes Springfield (revitalizing mixed-use urban core neighborhood) and Regency's (aging low density suburban commercial strip) problems somewhat different but they do have one similar issue that they must ultimately overcome. That's COJ.
I'm of the belief that COJ may be negatively impacting both. For example, it appears our code enforcement situation, rolling fines and misuse of NSP funds are stumbling blocks for those wanting to invest in Springfield. When it comes to the Regency area, our love for subsidizing sprawl is literally sucking it dry as the same businesses are simply moving three miles east to Atlantic and Kernan.
In this sense, COJ can either be their best friends for rebirth or their worst enemy in their destruction.
The last time I went to Regency was years ago to buy specific sneakers at a shop and despite the fact that I had my two young daughter's with me the F-bomb was spoken loudly and often. I decided then to never go back. It has become a dump and a hangout for people that don't know how to behave in public, and there is a lot of loitering, begging and criminal activity. It was no surprise when and why Underwoods left and why everyone else prefers to avoid the area. And if other shopping areas don't control their private property I will just use Amazon.
QuoteThe last time I went to Regency was years ago to buy specific sneakers at a shop and despite the fact that I had my two young daughter's with me the F-bomb was spoken loudly and often.
Sounds like a Welcome to Rockville show at Met Park! :P