BRT vs. Rail: A Tale of Two Urban Transit Systems
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/brt/other_cities/tampa/bus-rail-tampa.jpg)
In previous articles, we've discussed the difference between bus rapid transit and rail transit in urban environments. We've also displayed evidence suggesting that bus dominated transitways in urban environments are more of a hinderance to stimulating retail, than a help. Now, to illustrate the idea on the eve of JTA's upcoming BRT downtown workshops, Metro Jacksonville takes you on a photo tour of these two transit systems, showing their effect on Tampa's urban core.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/393
I agree that rail would be a better solution in the Jacksonville's urban area, but I dont think that the bus/rail dilemma is the only thing holding back downtown retail development. I have a problem with this thought that if a rail system is brough downtown, then all of a sudden every building owner will wise up and create a pedestrian-friendly environment that opens up to the street. I dont think the bus/rail discussion has much to do with that. We need the residential first (in progress), which will be followed by the dining/entertainment, which will be followed by the retail, which then will open the door for a transit discussion.
I think you may have missed the point. We're not saying build rail downtown, we already have it. The underlying point is to keep bus rapid transit off of downtown's major pedestrian retail oriented streets and to take advantage of what we already have by better promotion. The images of Tampa's systems prove that transit alone doesn't spur pedestrian friendly retail, which is what backers of converting Adams and Bay to transit oriented malls having been selling. The images show the difference between transit systems when you focus one on moving buses and the other in the form of connecting and integrating with destinations in the inner core.
Also going back to the point of "Connectivity" and transit to what? Here's a list of destinations located within a block or two of the skyway's path.
1. MOSH
2. Friendship Fountain & the Maritime Museum
3. Prime Osborn Convention Center
4. Jacksonville Landing
5. Times-Union Preforming Arts Center
6. Jacksonville Public Library
7. MOCA Jax
That's a nice set of destinations already connected. By using the free trolley shuttle in a complementary role, it could be possible to add Karpeles Manuscript Museum, the Beaver Street Farmer's Market, Five Points, the Cummer Museum, San Marco Square and the Sport's District to the routes. HART has mastered this idea by tying Tampa's inner city destinations together with their intown trolley bus and streetcar line. The result has been increased ridership for those transit systems and an increase in tourism and business for the local convention industry and destinations along those routes.
Locally, we have several things already in place, but we're still struggling to take advantage of them. What's really needed is a strong effort to make our existing transit options more end user friendly (ex. better promotion, station identification, signage, efficiency, etc.) , before we approve millions of dollars on new systems that will compete with what we already have and could very well destroy the downtown retail, entertainment and dining scene finally making a comeback, in the process.
....but note that Ybor City is changing....the retail and restaurant/bar area struggles more each year as Channelside becomes more active.....what Ybor is getting is infill housing now....although unlike Channelside, it has almostr nothing to do with the streetcar.....everyone I know that lives there drives to South Tampa and Westshore or walks to the remaining shops on 7th Ave
The change in Ybor City has come as a result of city policy in trying to fix what wasn't broken. Ybor became what it was because it had developed its own unique funky vibe. A few years ago, the City of Tampa implemented some policies in an effort to make the area more "upscale" and "family friendly".
That's okay, but doing so, means the funky atmosphere that originally made the district popular was forever lost in the process. It will be interesting to see how Ybor's atmosphere will ultimately change, with the addition of infill housing in areas of that district that were destroyed by failed urban renewal efforts in the mid 20th century. Most likely, Channelside will continue to grow to become a tourist oriented destination, while Ybor will go back to it's natural roots of being an urban residential district with local oriented supporting retail establishments.
Great job. Probably the most comprehensive and compelling piece MetroJax has done to date.
I agree Lakelander, the BRT is not the optimal solution. It would be a huge waste of tax dollars. I think we should put forth every effert to take advantage of the infrastructure that we already have in place (skyway, rail line) which came with a sizeable price tag. I think by somehow connecting Five Points and San Marco Square, we would have an inclusive downtown transit system. Here is a good article regarding Andres Duany's thoughts on inner-city rail in Austin, TX.
http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/column?oid=oid%3A465112
Interesting article however some of your info is either flawed or over exaggerated. While it is true that Tampa's streetcar is a more desirable form of transportation than a busway, it has not been very successful in attracting locals into giving up there cars. This is due to several factors. Ybor City and the Channelside districts are mainly evening and weekend destinations, 20 to 30 minute intervals between trams is not very convenient and that the streetcar does not circulate through downtown Tampa. In fact I would not use Tampa as an ideal that Jax should aspire to. Hart (Tampa's transit agency) carries only about 30,000 people a day throughout their system. By comparison Miami Dade transit boards nearly 350,000 a day. Which means that while Miami has twice as many people as Tampa, their transit system carries 10 times as many people. (By the way, Miami also has a successful BRT as well as heavy rail and a people mover system). While I agree that BRT is probably not the best idea for Jacksonville, please do not get caught up in the hype of transit as a panacea for downtrodden districts that need more than just shiny trains to revive them. Baltimore's LRT has been up and running for many years now and has done relatively little to bring back a moribund part of their downtown that is outside of the inner harbor. Trains do not trump good city planning
Great read, thanks for the link. When he discusses "Inner-City" rail, is he addressing the $90 million/32-mile commuter rail system currently under construction or the light rail plans that have been mentioned in the area over the last few years? I ask because he mentions Miami's Metrorail, which is a heavy rail system. Other than steel wheels running on rail, that's a completely different type of system than commuter rail connecting the city with it's suburbs.
Perhaps the BEST report I have seen, excellent points.
Jacksonville once HAD a very strong Traction Hertige (streetcars). It was the largest system to ever operate in Florida and included JACKSONVILLE TRACTION CO., SOUTH JACKSONVILLE MUNI RY., and the ORTEGA TRACTION CO. Our route on North Main was widely known as "The Most Beautiful Trolley Line in the World". While I am perhaps the loudest proponet of a TRACTION REVIVAL in Jacksonville, I would be the first to agree that we also need to finish the Sykway to focal points in the City: STADIUM, 5 POINTS, SAN MARCO, SPRINGFIELD. I have also noted a great deal of print about passengers unwilling to "go upstairs" for transit, with this in mind, our END POINT terminals should drop to street level with bus transfer loops, allowing cross-platform, seamless transfers.
The most disturbing part of all of this is that we bought into the "Potato Chip Truck-Looks like a Trolley," which are heavily marketed as tourist attractions. Being in the Rail community, I can tell you of the Worlds 5 million railroad fans, not one would pause to even look. Ask yourself, if you saw a big sign, "Meet the Jaguars", as you pull in, there is a parking lot full of poor cardboard cutouts of the team members. That thought makes you a bit ill doesn´t it. "My contention on LRT," is that once tlhe Track is in place, "Heritage Trolleys ," can become "Light Rail ," with little effort. SAME TRACK, SAME ELECTRIC. While it is true, LRT is built to higher standards beyond the CBD, the downtown lines would move at street speeds, so it stands that a well designed track and electrical could be used for both. As in Tampa our TRACTION would not have to mix with vehicle traffic. It would be important to consider the East-West line Transportation Center-Stadium on a route different then the skyway. At both Stadium and Transportation Center, Skyway, Bus, LRT would all come together. LRT could have it´s own platform on the railroad side of Transportation Center. Thus in one giant leap, we create mass transit:
A system connected at all of the ends.
A cross town segment SKYWAY right out of "star wars".
A Heritage Trolley/LRT core right out of 1936 (final year of JT Co.)
A capicity enhancement that would make us able to hande any transit contingency, NFL, NBA etc.
A LRT seed that would enable future expansion North into Springfield.
A LRT seed that would enable future expansion South into Riverside.
A LRT seed that would enable future expansion over a New Matthews Bridge, Regency, Beaches.
Thank you for the opportunity to be heard.
Ocklawaha ;)
Yes, they do not, we have the skyway to prove that. Transit in general does not. A mix of good urban planning, marketing and integrating those things with the mass transit system is what the city should be shooting for.
Regarding the article, there was no mention of the TECO streetcar line being developed to get riders out of their cars. This view is one of the main obstacles in getting those not familiar with all the benefits of mass transit to accept. It was set up and has been very successful at being an alternative and connecting form of mass transit in Tampa's inner city, in conjunction with the In-Town Trolley bus. No one familiar with Tampa can deny that the inner city vibrancy has completely changed for the better in the last few years, since a little more effort and promotion was put into coordinating mass transit service with new and existing developments in the area. Its living proof of how to and not design mass transit routes in the urban core.
There was also no mention of BRT or rail being the panacea for downtrodden downtowns. Miami's Busway is a great example of one that works (although it's not downtown), but to date, hasn't stimulated new retail development along it's path either. Lets make it clear, the concept of BRT is great at what its meant to do, which is to move buses.
However, placing such systems in pedestrian friendly downtown areas create several problems from a pedestrian friendly standpoint. The simple cheap solution would be to work with what's there (the skyway & trolleys), respect the current urban environment and future downtown master plans and come up with a viable solution that moves the planned busways off the Northbank's major streets, such as Adams and Bay.
Lakelander:
Like all Modes, Rail has it´s own unique vocabulary, I will offer a couple of examples:
Inter-City Rail = Long Distance or Medium Distance passenger trains such as Amtrak
Intra-City Rail = Commuter Rail, LRT, Heritage Trolleys (or Traction), Interurbans.
Hope this clears it up.
Ocklawaha
Maybe Andres Duany doesn't understand the terminology? What Austin has under construction is nothing like or similar to Miami's Metromover. It would be like comparing our Skyway with Dallas' DART or San Diego's Coaster.
From article:
On inner-city circulator rail:
"You don't have the fabric yet for it to be successful. Austin doesn't have enough walkable stuff. Look at the history of what's happened in lots of other cities â€" Miami is a good example, a famous example; look at what happened when they built the Metrorail in '78. Only now is the urban pattern coming in to support it. Nobody used it; everyone made fun of it.
"Building transit first gives transit a bad name. You have to build the urban pattern first, achieve the density. Then do your transit next.
"The good thing about a bus is you can remove it if it gets embarrassing. You need to make a rail reservation in the city infrastructure now, but don't build it yet. You'll know when you need it; it will be so evident. There has to be a pain factor."
All the articles on this site are wonderful and give us new visions to think over. Thank you so much. However, I don't think that these multi-million dollar 'awesome" plans are any good for two goals for Jacksonville: revitalizing downtown and getting more cars off the road.
I don't know what the capacity for the Skyway is but it seems to be carrying very few passengers and has poor capability for carrying more even if the tracks are extended. My other gripe about the Skyway is the way it creates downtown tunnels for the streets on which it runs. Some very beautiful parts of town have been visually ruined by the Skyway. I can only agree with Ron Littlepage, persistent critic of the Skyway, that this was and is a big boondoggle to get federal funds.
Light Rail would be an asset except for one big problem: Right-of- way. We have waited too long to purchase ROW for the suburbs to travel to the big job centers. Unless we are willing to face the music and tear out a strip of highway, there are no good choices. And then there's the bridges!
In terms of getting to jobs and carrying the max load of passengers, the City needs to divorce its ideas about revitalizing downtown from plans for moving people to work and getting cars off the roads. They need to concentrate on Baymeadows, Butler Blvd, and Southside Blvd. BRT needs to go somewhere else, not into town. Yeah, lots of people work in town, but most work elsewhere in sprawlzania.
The Skyway is a downtown peoplemover system designed to move people that are already downtown. It is not the beginnings of of a regional elevated mass transit system itself, only a small piece. The skyway is the first piece of an unfinished puzzle. Its intentions were to link up with a future regional commuter rail system and comprehensive bus network all linked together with Amtrak and Greyhound via the proposed transportation hub at the Prime Osborne.
QuoteLight Rail would be an asset except for one big problem: Right-of- way. We have waited too long to purchase ROW for the suburbs to travel to the big job centers. Unless we are willing to face the music and tear out a strip of highway, there are no good choices. And then there's the bridges!
The core is revitalizing on its own and its new residents are already popping up within the vicinity of the skyway so why not finish it and expand it per its original plans?. The JTA also has plans to implement "Neighborhood Loops" using trollys to move people around a particular neighborhood and then connect those neighborhoods together with a more rapid form of transit. The argument the MetroJacksonville has been voicing against the proposed BRT system is that it is a waste downtown and along the existing rail lines. BRT would, however, be useful in connecting the "Neighborhood Loops" in areas where rail doesn't exist (such as Southpoint, Beaches, Southside Corridor, Arlington, etc.) The system as a whole would help to alleviate traffic congestion by giving people an attractive option to get where they need to go and would help to spawn TODs along the rail lines and "Neighborhood Loop" terminuses.
QuoteIn terms of getting to jobs and carrying the max load of passengers, the City needs to divorce its ideas about revitalizing downtown from plans for moving people to work and getting cars off the roads. They need to concentrate on Baymeadows, Butler Blvd, and Southside Blvd. BRT needs to go somewhere else, not into town. Yeah, lots of people work in town, but most work elsewhere in sprawlzania.
(http://www.jtaflorida.org/projects/graphics/promap2.gif)
http://www.jtaflorida.org/projects/projects_map.html
Example of Southside road construction projects....
1. $80.5 million - JTB/9A interchange
2. $79 million - Beach Blvd widening (at Intracoastal Waterway)
3. $65.3 million - JTB/I-95 interchange
4. $23.5 million - Beach Blvd widening (between FCCJ & Hodges)
5. $19.5 million - AC Skinner Parkway extension (between Southside & Belford)
6. $5 million - Southside Blvd resurfacing (between US 1 & I-95 flyover)
These projects alone, come out to $272.8 million worth of transportation dollars. If anything thing, most of the transportation focus in Duval County has been recently centered around the sprawling Southside, and not on downtown, as previously suggested.
Anyway, it seems as most have completely missed the main topic at hand. This coming Thursday, JTA will be having it's second round of public workshops on their $20 million downtown BRT plan. This isn't pie in the sky stuff, its as real as it gets and could hit our streets in about three years. The photos in the thread show two downtown transportation systems and have resulted in economic success and failure.
Based on what JTA has shown during previous workshops, downtown Jacksonville will be blessed with a Marion Street Transit Parkway Jr, if residents and city officials don't wake up and force JTA to deal with more important issues facing the downtown environment than just moving city buses through it.
Good article. However, you state that the TECO Streetcar system is a primary factor for Tampa's successful redevelopment of the neighborhoods surrounding downtown. I would disagree - it is highly likely that most of these developments would have been built due to current market forces regardless of whether the streetcar was there or not. I do not deny that the streetcar has helped, but it by no means is the primary factor. I would also be careful how you compare a proposed BRT system to the Marion St Transitway in Tampa. Marion St is a transit Mall, not a BRT system - there is a huge difference. I don't know if BRT is right for downtown Jax or not, but if the proposed project is a true BRT system, it should look quite different than what you are seeing in Tampa.
1. The article mentions that transit connecting existing destinations, combined with agressive marketing and decent urban clustering was the reason for that area's growing vibrancy. (See Conclusion Point No. 2)
2. Several of the developments in the images were completed, before the streetcar system. Links have also been included within the article to give Metro Jacksonville readers a path to read for themselves the struggles many of these places went through prior to the streetcar opening.
3. The Marion Street Transit Parkway is nearly identical to what is being proposed by JTA for the Adams Street Transit Mall alternative. Please go out to the JTA workshops next week and view personally. Also feel free to read the previous Metro Jacksonville article on bus oriented transit malls mentioned as a success by JTA at the previous workshops. This article also provides links to in depth information for all of those busways.
BRT & Transit Malls: Do they create Vibrant Cities?http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/388/92/
Please don't take Metro Jacksonville's word for everything. Take advantage of the attached links in the articles. The attached links are meant to be used by readers to find out what's being said in those exact cities and not the opinions of the Metro Jacksonville Group.
QuoteMarion St is a transit Mall, not a BRT system - there is a huge difference. I don't know if BRT is right for downtown Jax or not, but if the proposed project is a true BRT system, it should look quite different than what you are seeing in Tampa.
Last but not least, can you explain your reasoning with this statement? It's very important that this subject be debated out in the open and from all angles. Only then will we be able to apply the best solutions to the situation at hand. Also feel free to suggest successful examples of downtown BRT lines and BRT (not those using slow moving mall oriented shuttles) oriented transit malls that have enhanced the pedestrian friendly retail environment along their paths.
QuoteA Streetcar Named Aspire: Lines Aim to Revive Cities
By THADDEUS HERRICK
June 20, 2007; Page B1
TAMPA, Fla. -- As a transportation system, this city's $63 million streetcar line is a dud.
Since the project opened in 2002, its financial losses have exceeded expectations. Last year ridership declined 10% to its lowest level yet. And the vintage system spans only 2.4 miles between the edge of downtown and a historic district called Ybor City.
"It goes from no place to nowhere," says Hillsborough County Commissioner Brian Blair, an opponent of the project.
But proponents say Tampa's Teco Line Streetcar System has delivered on another front: helping to spur development. Some $450 million in residential and retail space is complete along the route, most of it in the Channel District, a once-languishing maritime neighborhood. With another $450 million in development underway and $1.1 billion in the planning stages, local officials expect the district to be home to as many as 10,000 residents within the next decade.
Like stadiums, convention centers and aquariums, streetcars have emerged as a popular tool in the effort to revitalize downtowns in the U.S. About a dozen cities, from Madison, Wis., to Miami, are planning lines. But while research shows that big-ticket projects such as ballparks largely fail to spawn economic development, evidence is mounting that streetcars are indeed a magnet.
Streetcar systems are slower, less expensive and smaller than light rail, with cars that carry a maximum of 125 people and the average line 2-3 miles long. The cars are powered by electricity and run on tracks, which developers tend to favor because they suggest a sense of permanence, unlike bus routes, which can be changed overnight.
In Kenosha, Wis., city officials say a two-mile line helped generate 400 new residential units and the redevelopment of a 69-acre industrial site into a waterfront park. The streetcar line in Little Rock, Ark., has sparked revitalization of the city's River Market and warehouse district. In Seattle, a new $52 million streetcar line is scheduled to open in December that will shuttle riders between downtown and South Lake Union, a formerly industrial area that is being redeveloped by Microsoft Corp. billionaire Paul Allen.
And in Portland, Ore., the poster child for such development, officials say the streetcar system has helped bring $2.7 billion in investment within two blocks of its 3.6 mile line, much of it in the 24-hour hub known as the Pearl District. "It's one of the most vibrant neighborhoods in the city," says Richard Brandman, deputy planning director for Metro, the Portland area's regional government.
Still, streetcars face considerable odds because they vie for the same money as transportation projects designed to serve the suburbs. This has been particularly true at the federal level, where funding has long depended on how quickly projects can move people from one point to another. Streetcars, which average under ten miles per hour, are at a distinct disadvantage. By contrast, light rail moves at 20 to 60 miles per hour.
Congress sought to change the odds in 2005 with the creation of Small Starts, a Federal Transit Administration program designed to fund small-scale transportation systems, including streetcars. But streetcar proponents have been largely reluctant to pursue funding under the program, saying the FTA still favors high-speed transit such as buses.
Paul Griffo, a spokesman for the FTA, says that both mobility and development factor into the funding of transportation projects. But so far Small Starts has recommended four projects, all of them bus rapid transit, an emerging transportation alternative in which a bus operates in a designated lane much like subway or light rail with stops about every half mile.
In the meantime, cities have relied on a patchwork of public and private money to help fund their streetcar systems, hoping to tap into a demographic shift in which young professional and empty nesters are moving downtown. Streetcars are especially popular among urban planners because they encourage the sort of density that allows for offices to be developed alongside homes, shops and restaurants.
"Streetcars are not designed to save time," says Mr. Blumenauer. "They're designed to change the way neighborhoods are built."
While streetcars lack speed and mobility, proponents say the role they play in urban development makes them a worthy transportation choice. They argue that by helping to draw development to urban areas such as downtowns, and by providing a transportation link in those areas, streetcars reduce the need for extra lanes of highways to the suburbs and limit the need for cars in and around downtowns.
In several cities, such as San Francisco and New Orleans, streetcars have never gone out of style as transportation systems. But many more were shut down following World War II in favor of buses.
That was the case in Tampa. The city once had one of the largest electric streetcar systems in the Southeast, with well over 100 cars and more than 50 miles of track.
In the mid-1980s, prompted in large part by nostalgia, a group calling itself the Tampa and Ybor City Street Railway Society set about to restore one of Tampa's derelict streetcars. Out of that effort evolved a broader downtown redevelopment campaign in which a new streetcar system was proposed, linking the city's convention center and the former cigar-manufacturing hub of Ybor City.
But county officials saw the focus on downtown as trivial compared with the needs of the larger Tampa-St. Petersburg metropolitan area, where the majority of 2.7 million people rely heavily on their cars to get to and from work. County leaders such as Mr. Blair, formerly a Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority board member, ridiculed the $600,000 replica streetcars as costly toys.
"The concern was the use of public money," says Steven Polzin, a former regional transit authority board member who is a director of public transit research at the University of South Florida's Center for Urban Transportation Research. "Tampa-area roads are wanting for resources."
But the controversy did little to deter development in the Channel District, a 212-acre stretch of land where the city has agreed to grant tax breaks for developers. Developers say they were also drawn by the streetcar line. Fida Sirdar, president of Key Developers Group LLC, for example, is spending several hundred thousand dollars to build a pedestrian walkway connecting the York Station streetcar stop to his Place at Channelside, a $100 million 244-unit condominium. "It's a big plus," he says.
In May, the Tampa City Council voted to extend the streetcar line by about a third of a mile into downtown, using federal money already in hand. By linking downtown and the burgeoning Channel District, officials hope they can transform the streetcar line into more of a commuter system, expanding the hours of operation and raising revenue.
Still, Tampa's streetcar line is still largely a tourist attraction, drawing 389,770 riders last year, more than half of them out-of-town visitors. A $4.75 million endowment set up to operate the streetcar system for 10 years is losing about $1 million a year. And Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio says she doesn't intend to put more money into the line, which the city owns jointly with Tampa's regional transit authority.
"Somebody is going to have to step up," says Ed Crawford, a spokesman for the regional transit authority. "It's clear we can't go on this way."
(http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/images/MK-AK510_STREET_20070619181450.jpg)
Out-of-town visitors make up more than half of all the riders on Tampa's streetcar line.
(http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/images/MK-AK509_STREET_20070619181323.jpg)
Tampa's Teco Line Streetcar System links the entertainment district of Ybor City to the city's convention center at the edge of downtown.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118230925180141617.html