Peyton's Struggles: The Convention Center
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8268-p1170407.JPG)
“There are many pressing priorities in the community. Right now, those don't include a new convention center.” Former Peyton spokeswoman Susie Wiles - 07/30/05
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/988
Editorial Note: The first quote from the Jax Daily Record includes a lot of repeated sentences.
As for the article, this thoroughly sums up the issue that upsets me most about the current administration. Building a new and separate transportation center would be a greater boondoggle than the county courthouse. This would leave us with both a poor "inter-modal" transit center and a very sub-par convention center.
I'm still not convinced that the Prime Osborn shouldn't remain the Convention Center....there is room to expand it and having the JRTC right next door would be an advantage.
That said, I've come to like the idea of a new center on the site of the current Courthouse complex more over the last year....if it can be built with minimal public investment (maybe a partnership with the Hyatt), then I say go for it.
Obviously if the Convention Center were to relocate to the river, construction could not start before 2012 anyway.....and now the JRTC has been pushed back by FDOT due to funding shortfalls.....so it might all work out in the end.
ProjectMaximus - That was strange, but I fixed it.
QuoteI'm still not convinced that the Prime Osborn shouldn't remain the Convention Center....there is room to expand it and having the JRTC right next door would be an advantage.
Here's why I'm convinced that it needs to go.
1. It results in an inefficient transportation center design. Not only does transferring between modes become difficult, it wastes several blocks of what should be set aside for transit oriented development uses.
2. To become a workable convention center, it requires us to invest money in building duplicate complementing uses (convention center hotel, restaurants, entertainment, etc.). This ultimately ends up in a battle of competition between existing and new businesses (if we can actually attract the new uses). So in the end, we could end up paying more if forced into keeping the isolated Prime Osborn site and providing incentives to encourage new private sector uses in a market that can't support them.
3. Isolation - shifting the complex to where complementing uses currently exist, allows us to better support what's already in place. Expansion at the current site leaves us wishing on pie in the sky proposals like Bay Street Station and Brooklyn Park. If they never happen, an expanded convention center will still fail. Instead of investing millions and still relying on dreams for success, stick it closer to where the uses already are, thus creating instant synergy.
4. Master Plan - finally, regardless of where it ends up, the solution should be settled and made a part of the DT master plan. By keeping things in limbo, an entire section of the core is frozen in inaction. Someone, whether its the council, JEDC or the Mayor's Office, needs to man up and settle this thing, once and for all.
Why would an expanded Prime-Osborn and a JTA Transit center need to be two different facilities? Because JTA wants to move forward and can't get the city to commit to a future update of P-O? Or because JTA went ahead and paid an architectural firm to design a stand-alone facility already? Why can't the two uses be designed into a single, massive, multi-use complex -- transit center AND convention center? Combining uses may result in a smaller budget than designing and funding two separate complexes...
Because the city has been non-committal to this point. Nevertheless, even a single complex would still have to overcome these issues:
Quote2. To become a workable convention center, it requires us to invest money in building duplicate complementing uses (convention center hotel, restaurants, entertainment, etc.). This ultimately ends up in a battle of competition between existing and new businesses (if we can actually attract the new uses). So in the end, we could end up paying more if forced into keeping the isolated Prime Osborn site and providing incentives to encourage new private sector uses in a market that can't support them.
3. Isolation - shifting the complex to where complementing uses currently exist, allows us to better support what's already in place. Expansion at the current site leaves us wishing on pie in the sky proposals like Bay Street Station and Brooklyn Park. If they never happen, an expanded convention center will still fail. Instead of investing millions and still relying on dreams for success, stick it closer to where the uses already are, thus creating instant synergy.
If you're planning a convention, what's more attractive? Orlando's International Drive, Nashville's Music Row, Daytona's Beach, Louisville's 4th Street Live or Jacksonville's Greyhound bus station?
Imo, this convention center issue is more than about finding a site with ample space for expansion. Proper urban integration and connectivity is key as well. Can DT really support another hotel the size of Hyatt? If the Landing can't stay full, is it reasonable to expect someone else to come in and build a similar center in LaVilla with their own cash? Is it ideal to create a competitor DT nightlife district instead of focusing resources of filling in East Bay? If expanded at the Prime Osborn, do we really believe all of these things will just flock to LaVilla on their own? It didn't happen in the mid 1980s, so why expect it now?
The city already owns the land to the old courthouse, so right there, the cost of purchasing land for a new convention center is diminished. The city already owns the Prime Osborn, so turning that into the transportation center reduces the amount of land the city would have to purchase for an efficient center. Plus, moving the convention center into the urban core helps the established hotels and restaurants already in business and reduces the need for building new hotels and restaurants by the current center. Is it just me, or is this common sense?
I believe I have stated my vision for a new convention center in the past, but as the topic has been renewed, here goes. The city needs to start partnering on its projects. There is no need to always have to do everything by ourselves. My vision includes a new hotel on the corner of Bay and Liberty Streets with a restaurant at street level. The Bay Street side would also include a 2nd floor skyway stop built into the entrance to the convention center. Auto parking would be underground as well as in the center of the building (we don't need more ugly parking ramps facing Bay Street). Part of the glass enclosed grand entrance, on the corner of Market and Bay, would include 1st and 2nd floor space for a few small retail stores/coffee shops, etc. These shops are open to the public. Once inside the actual convention center, there would be one huge exhibition floor with a river view at the end. Smaller rooms would also be built on different levels including more of a reception hall with beautiful views of the river. A nice reception space for weddings guarantees rental revenue almost every single weekend of the year. Along the riverwalk on the ground level would be leasing space for more restaurants and shops, maybe even space for the Maritime Museum or something else the city desperately needs. ;)
What I'm getting at is this. Build something that is a destination not just for people attending a convention but for all citizens. It embraces mass transit and the surrounding businesses. It utilizes the beauty of the river and it also guarantees the city revenue 365 days of the year, thus allowing the city to pay off debt and reduce the ultimate taxpayer investment. It is time to break the tradition of investing in buildings with only one purpose. (stadium, arena, new courthouse, etc) All of these built away from any other businesses and the majority of people, not at all walkable, and only accessible by car. We go there for only one reason and the rest of the time it sits empty.
I'm not an architect, but I think my vision is at least a start to what could be. And that is more than Peyton and crew have been able to come up with in the past 6 years. I guess the "we don't have money, except for what I want" is getting a little old. Jacksonville deserves better.
Great vision! Centers that incorporate a mix of uses are increasing in popularity.
Convention center or not, it seems pretty clear to me that JTA, Amtrak, Greyhound, cabs, ect. should all run from the Prime Osborn like (I think) they used to. We need a "Grand Central Station" where they all tie together.
What year and why did they stop running transport from there?
i
did the alternative plan have the whole structure intact? i can't tell.
IMO, after a lot of going back and forth. I now like the idea of expanding the current site. With the JTC, Bay Street Station, and possible Drooklyn redevelopment, this area could provide enough things around the center that are currently missing, The main things being adjacent hotels, which would be helped by Bay Street project. This project also includes a movie theater. If I am not mistaken, the JTC also includes some retail. You could also run trolley or streetcar down Park Street to connect center with 5 points.
From an historical buildings perspective, wouldn't trying to expand the Prime Osborn into a larger convention center significantly alter the beauty and uniqueness of the architecture? I think turning it into a transportation hub would allow the building's size to remain as is, thus preserving the original outside structure. Ock or Lake, am I right or wrong on this?
The concepts I've heard of for expanding the Convention Center extends the building west, over the existing parking lot between the current building and I-95. So it wouldn't affect the view of the historic front from down Water Street.
Quote from: triclops i on January 19, 2009, 02:39:57 PM
What year and why did they stop running transport from there?
1974. I'm sure Ock can provide better detail but I would not be suprised if they left so they would not have to continue to maintain the building.
Quote from: Matt on January 19, 2009, 03:25:49 PM
did the alternative plan have the whole structure intact? i can't tell.
The historic structure was left intact and converted back into its original use. A portion of the exhibition space was removed to accomodate Greyhound and the rest was saved to be converted into retail space (similar to DC's Union Station) and offices.
Quote from: GatorShane on January 19, 2009, 03:49:14 PM
IMO, after a lot of going back and forth. I now like the idea of expanding the current site. With the JTC, Bay Street Station, and possible Drooklyn redevelopment, this area could provide enough things around the center that are currently missing, The main things being adjacent hotels, which would be helped by Bay Street project. This project also includes a movie theater. If I am not mistaken, the JTC also includes some retail. You could also run trolley or streetcar down Park Street to connect center with 5 points.
Two problems with this scenerio:
1. You have an inefficient transportation center layout that wastes a couple of DT blocks on uses that should be integrated adjacent to each other.
2. After spending millions to expand the convention center, you can only hope complementing development follows. For all we know, the Brooklyn Parks and Bay Street Station concepts are nothing more than present day Buddy Clarkson Marriott proposals that will never actually happen. If things turn out that way (as they have in the past), you then have an expanded convention center that's still not attractive, when lined up with those in other cities.
Quote from: brainstormer on January 19, 2009, 04:20:03 PM
From an historical buildings perspective, wouldn't trying to expand the Prime Osborn into a larger convention center significantly alter the beauty and uniqueness of the architecture? I think turning it into a transportation hub would allow the building's size to remain as is, thus preserving the original outside structure. Ock or Lake, am I right or wrong on this?
Charles Hunter is right. Expanding at the current site would mean stretching out over the parking lot. The appearance of the building's front would not be altered. You would have a larger center, but you're still stuck with hoping something similar to the Hyatt elects to open at the complex. As for the transportation center, it would just be screwed.
Great article.
It's always helpful to put JAX into perspective with its peer cities. While the above exhibition space for Nashville is a bit outdated, Nashville is a population-peer city that has also recently wrestled with how and when to address convention center facilities in their downtown master plan.
Nashville is currently upgrading its downtown convention space. While downtown's space as listed above is small, the city had ample convention space at Opryland while the city invested energy into renovations of TPAC, the construction of the new symphony center, and some downtown space and infrastructure improvements. Nashville's new downtown convention center will have 375,000 sq.ft of exhibition space. Opryland has 319,000 sq.ft of exhibit space and 110,000 sq.ft of ballroom space with plans to double their exhibition space in the next few years. Thus, the Nashville area actually will soon have almost 700,000 sq.ft. of exhibition space with plans to expand.
Nashville will certainly benefit from bringing more conventions downtown. Even though may of the Sh/Opryland guests eventually make it to 2nd Avenue on tour buses, hotel and restaurant dollars that stay downtown will be a significant gain.
Alas, JAX doesn't have the luxury of leaning on other area facilities, with minimum hit to tourist dollars, while putting off the convention center question.
I agree that it makes the most planning and fiscal sense to make the Prime Osborn a transit hub again. It is pointless to rebuild existing infrastructure and PO's location on the outskirts of downtown disconnects convention traffic from the heart of downtown. Currently, surface lots and office buildings hinder connective development in between the PO and downtown; the city's current plans would have conventioners further isolated by a new transit hub and courthouse. Nashville's made this same mistake with an old transit center: the Union Station Hotel is beautiful--and kudos to them for saving a grand building--but I'd rather have it serving as Nashville's transit hub, too.
I don't think the distance people would have to walk from Amtrack to JTA stuff and Greyhound would be farther than the distances you have to cover WITHIN most major airports. If traffic justified it escalators, moving sidewalks and enclosed paths could be built.
Also, is the convention business something that the COJ taxpayers need to get into? Should we wait for a private concern to do it or be our partners on it?
Here's the plan. Let's call it the Even Better Jacksonville Plan.
The Ford Assembly Building is 163,000 square feet.
What if the Assembly building were developed as Phase One of a waterfront convention center?
It's essentially a two space building, The renovated showroom would be an excellent venue, and the enormous main plant space could handle many shows.
If successful, you have expansion acerage.
Think of the perimeter circulation and breakout space looking out on a 180 degree view of the river.
Have a green roof. Someone please, renovate this magnificent structure in my lifetime.
Think of the boat show you could have.
Market the new convention center to every marine related, shipping and transportation industrial trade show on the planet.
Extend the Skyway to the new convention center complex with stops along the Municipal Stadium/Veterans
Memorial Arena route, and provide future stops for redevelopment sites on Commodore Point land.
You could have sites for future waterfront hotels near both the Sports Complex and the Convention Center.
There is a railroad spur line crossing the property that terminates at Commodores Point.
Ock, help me out here.
Extend the Northbank Riverwalk to the Matthews Bridge and the Ford site, and start up the Hogan's Creek Greenway while you are at it.
Nice shopping/wish list for the new Administration's projects, much of it transportation related.
This frees up all of Union Terminal for the best possible multi-modal project.
A more compact transportation center is good. This plan also establishs connectivity,
not only from Riverside/Avondale to Brooklyn/Lavilla to downtown,and down river to where port activity starts, but inland to Springfield, and Fairfield/Eastside, so the later can be like Wrigleyville.
Union Terminal and the Ford Assembly Building are the bookends.
Good vision? Negative factors? Too distant from downtown?
Some of the downtown convention center sites could potentially block the waterfront, like the original Hyatt structure. We need an urban design template that optimizes all of the assets of downtown.
Last trains were in 1974. It was closed due to high overhead (cost per train or per passenger) which soared after Amtrak took over in 1971 and wiped out about 2/3 of all US passenger trains... uh... in order to "save them" (Hey! Don't blame me, Tricky Dicky said that!). They also complained about the trains having to back into the "old" station. Funny because we had already started talks to bring back the FEC route which would force the trains to pass right through the old station. Moreover, by not building at the throat of the rail junctions downtown, Amtrak limited itself to ONE LINE ONLY, so when the Sunset Limited came along, it upset the apple cart and had to pull into the old station and BACK to the Am-shack on Clifford lane. Most of us in the rail business always figured the REAL REASON they moved it out of town, was the other thing they did to "save them"... The new company would have no old fart railroaders around to tell them how to run a passenger service. So the US Government hired airline and bus executives to set up Amtrak. Any good airline executive is going to want the station way out of town, so people won't complain when the trains land.
This would be funnier if it wern't so lame ass true!
The NUMBER ONE - NUMBERO UNO - reason that we cannot allow the Prime Osbourne to stay or expand is this:
Amtrak is extending the corridor south to Jacksonville - then on to Miami
The FEC is going to come back.
We will get the 5 trains per route plan (as many as 15-30 Jacksonville trains depending on how many routes they pick).
In 1986 the USDOT came through with long range plan advisorys and said Jacksonville will need a 12 track station in the near future. This was the start of our JTC planning.
UNLESS THE PRIME IS GONE, THERE IS NO PLACE TO PUT THE TRACKS. 4 maybe, 8-12 for a hub? NOT A CHANCE! Oh and don't forget commuter rail will need at least 4 also... DUH?
Don't you just love the Mayor?
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on January 19, 2009, 06:50:04 PM
I don't think the distance people would have to walk from Amtrack to JTA stuff and Greyhound would be farther than the distances you have to cover WITHIN most major airports. If traffic justified it escalators, moving sidewalks and enclosed paths could be built.
Except an airport and an intermodal center are two different animals. Toss in the fact that the site is downtown and, like the courthouse, its highly questionable to waste multiple blocks on a center that should not consume that much land.
QuoteAlso, is the convention business something that the COJ taxpayers need to get into? Should we wait for a private concern to do it or be our partners on it?
The Hyatt and Sleiman (The Landing) have mentioned being potential partners at points in the past. Considering both would directly benefit from a center being located near their operations, it would make sense for them to help cover the cost.
Quote from: billy on January 19, 2009, 08:19:27 PM
Here's the plan. Let's call it the Even Better Jacksonville Plan.
The Ford Assembly Building is 163,000 square feet.
What if the Assembly building were developed as Phase One of a waterfront convention center?
Extend the Skyway to the new convention center complex with stops along the Municipal Stadium/Veterans
Memorial Arena route, and provide future stops for redevelopment sites on Commodore Point land.
You could have sites for future waterfront hotels near both the Sports Complex and the Convention Center.
There is a railroad spur line crossing the property that terminates at Commodores Point.
Ock, help me out here.
Extend the Northbank Riverwalk to the Matthews Bridge and the Ford site, and start up the Hogan's Creek Greenway while you are at it.
Yes the Talleyrand Terminal Railroad extends south from the Talleyrand Terminal to the point and shipyard under the Hart Bridge.
The only negative I see in this plan is the dislocation of a few major shipping employers...
The Shipyard under the Hart Bridge, a barge line, a major cement loading facility, some really big warehouse space, a maritime contractor, a second tug and barge operation.
Perhaps we could just send them all to Mayport? How interesting would THAT be? All joking aside, we could develop some of the land along the Trout River, Clapboard Creek or those islands under the Broward Bridge. OCKLAWAHA
The official Downtown Development area stops at the Matthews Bridge, I believe.
Long term, I've always thought downriver would always remain industrial waterfront and maritime,
until you pass Blount Island and even beyond to Atlantic Marine.
I'm old enough to remember shipyards and shipping on both sides almost up to the Main Street Bridge ( and when Blount Island had a different name).
I feel that this convention center fiasco is near the top of the list of urgent issues in Jacksonville. Not only are our city officials inhibiting this JTA Transportation Hub from being a commuter/traveler-friendly center, but they are also squashing any shot at making downtown a true center of activity as a result.
By keeping the undersized Prime Osborne as our convention center, and attempting to build the transit center around it, this plan will become nothing more than a "let's keep our fingers crossed and hope this works" idea.
Acceptable convention facilities are crucial to the economic development of any city. If Jacksonville were able to compete for even 60% of the nation's convention events (and this would result from modest expansion), the benefits would be outstanding. Downtown Jacksonville would undoubtedly see noticeable growth as a result (retail, hotels, nightlife, and even residential development as downtown becomes a more attractive neighborhood).
Is it not apparent that an expanded center is in the best interest of our city? Is there anything that we citizens can do to keep the city government from ruining another golden opportunity to develop downtown and develop it the RIGHT way? Instead of just sitting back and pointing out the error of their ways, why not try to DO something about it?
Anyone see Nashville's plans for its new convention center? They're plowing full speed ahead it seems. The 1.2 million square foot facility will include a 370,000-square-foot exhibit hall: www.nashvillemusiccitycenter.com
(http://www.nashvillemusiccitycenter.com/images/Aerial-NE.jpg)
Nice architecture, at least from this rendering.
One of the goals of the facility is to ensure that it "functions on all four sides in a way that stimulates business and energizes the neighborhood."
(http://www.nashvillemusiccitycenter.com/images/visionPlan.jpg)
(http://www.nashvillemusiccitycenter.com/images/Aerial-SW.jpg)
Thanks for sharing, krazeeboi. That's a pretty impressive complex that will replace six more blocks of surface parking lots in Nashville. I love the way it fits into the downtown core. Jax should definitely take note. Btw, I'm looking forward to spending at least a night or day in Nashville, with the camera, on a road trip I'm currently planning for June. So look forward to a Nashville photo article this Summer.
Nice--it looks like the cutaway top of an acoustic guitar on the roof which is fitting for Nashville.
What is the cost of the Nashville CC? Are they getting federal stimulus money? Is it taking property off the tax rolls?
QuoteTo become a workable convention center, it requires us to invest money in building duplicate complementing uses (convention center hotel, restaurants, entertainment, etc.). This ultimately ends up in a battle of competition between existing and new businesses (if we can actually attract the new uses). So in the end, we could end up paying more if forced into keeping the isolated Prime Osborn site and providing incentives to encourage new private sector uses in a market that can't support them.
Oh great one, you probably saw that the guys in the Brooklyn redevelopment deal just put 3 of 4 parcels up for sale, after they tore down historic buildings for their plans. Another fantastic job for the JEDC to tear down history, for an empty promise, suprised the Fire Station is still standing on Forest and Riverside. But I digress, no one has any money for development downtown, so why waste it on the Prime? City is bleeding red, and will do so more next year when property values continue to decline.
You got no city money, no state money, you need Obama money, and his money is borrowed money! :o
this is the perfect time to do some planning....so the City isn't behind when the market turns around....unlike the boom from 2001-2006 which the City got into late.
Any update on this? Is that mayor not going to address this because he really has too much on his plate? Are we stuck in limbo until he leaves?
He claims to want to do some planning (it was part of his press conference Thursday). However I'm not sure if I believe him. I think the average Jacksonville resident would believe Dick Cheney over him at this point.
However, I'd love nothing more than to be proven wrong.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 17, 2009, 02:39:05 AM
QuoteTo become a workable convention center, it requires us to invest money in building duplicate complementing uses (convention center hotel, restaurants, entertainment, etc.). This ultimately ends up in a battle of competition between existing and new businesses (if we can actually attract the new uses). So in the end, we could end up paying more if forced into keeping the isolated Prime Osborn site and providing incentives to encourage new private sector uses in a market that can't support them.
Oh great one, you probably saw that the guys in the Brooklyn redevelopment deal just put 3 of 4 parcels up for sale, after they tore down historic buildings for their plans. Another fantastic job for the JEDC to tear down history, for an empty promise, suprised the Fire Station is still standing on Forest and Riverside. But I digress, no one has any money for development downtown, so why waste it on the Prime? City is bleeding red, and will do so more next year when property values continue to decline.
You got no city money, no state money, you need Obama money, and his money is borrowed money! :o
Damn MTrainnJax, I think you finally hit on something we'd both agree with... "We're going to SPEND ourselves RICH!" Uh Huh? Need some bucks, just go print em up... Why my new place ought to be worth 10 to 20 million in a couple of years, and if I sell out and take all my money to Publix, I could probably buy a pack of hot dogs and some buns with it. I've lived this story, try Latin America where a bottle of shampoo might cost $20,000 pesos.
My only diversion from your thoughts would be, if we're going to jump off this cliff, we might as well build what ever it is in Jacksonville, rather then Kenosha. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Steve on May 26, 2009, 11:05:28 PM
He claims to want to do some planning (it was part of his press conference Thursday).
Thanks Steve I must have missed that. I would love for at least the land to be set aside. Then let the next administration take it from there.
For those of you that still don't get why the Prime Osbourne and Jacksonville Terminal can't coexist, I'll offer an analogy.
Imagine a large Church, people come and go on regular schedules, it's easy on the eyes, completely functional... Right in the center court yard someone decides to build a 5 floor Gentleman's Club. So now we have another large group of people coming in at all hours. Try as you might this isn't going to fly Wilbur...
Finally a building that I really WANT to see blown down. Get that damn convention floor space off the old railroad yard YESTERDAY and let's get Amtrak, JTA, SEHSR, and FDOT relaying track. Nothing like the sweet scent of creosote and molten metal in the early morning, all to the tune of ringing steel. God it will be beautiful! Think I'm going to start my own line of after shave for railroaders...Ode de Creosote!
OCKLAWAHA
Nice Ock - I'll have to get some Aftershave.
On a serious note, that site is a TERRIBLE place for a Convention Center. There is no anchor hotel, and there is not a single standing building for five blocks. Frankly, given what we have turned the site into, I don't know if there is a worse one in all of downtown.
The current courthouse site makes the most sense to me. We're not going to build another 1,000 room hotel anytime soon, so I think we need to bring the convention center to it.
Here are the only things that I ask: Design the building so it has decent retail space facing Bay St (at least 70 feet clear to the back wall of the retail bays), and keep Market Street opened.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on April 16, 2009, 09:20:30 PM
What is the cost of the Nashville CC? Are they getting federal stimulus money? Is it taking property off the tax rolls?
Originally estimated at $650mil, the cost is likely lower due to building products falling in cost. No, stimulus dollars will not be used, and it will be paid for by a few cents more on tourism related stuff such as hotel rooms. The hop to break ground by the end of the year or early next year. Purchase of the properties may be done as early as next month.
Not the biggest fan of the surroundings in the renderings, especially the skyscrapers. Which have been horribly chopped.
QuoteNothing like the sweet scent of creosote and molten metal in the early morning, all to the tune of ringing steel.
Use Concrete, costs a bit more, but lasts longer and stronger to support future trains of all types.
CC needs to go on the river, turn the Shipyards or the JEA spaces into the CC, no one wants to look at McCoy's creek in a CC hotel. If the river is our focal point, we really need to have the CC on the river.
To see what could also be possible in Jacksonville by building a new convention center, here's a rendering of the proposed 40-story, 1,000-room convention center hotel in Nashville, to be built next to the new convention center:
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm99/YahTrickYah57/rendering4.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm99/YahTrickYah57/rendering8b.jpg)
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm99/YahTrickYah57/rendering5b.jpg)
Who is the architect?
John Portman & Associates, Inc.
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 27, 2009, 04:21:11 AM
QuoteNothing like the sweet scent of creosote and molten metal in the early morning, all to the tune of ringing steel.
Use Concrete, costs a bit more, but lasts longer and stronger to support future trains of all types.
CC needs to go on the river, turn the Shipyards or the JEA spaces into the CC, no one wants to look at McCoy's creek in a CC hotel. If the river is our focal point, we really need to have the CC on the river.
MTrain, ever been off the East end of Beaver Street at Washington? (Not pulling your leg here, it's worth the look). Hogans Creek winds through a thick woods to the South and with very little imagination, anyone that's ever been to San Antonio's river walk can see the possibilities. BTW, I'm not talking some socialized project either (I didn't vote for Obama, ha! ha!), I'm talking rolling vintage streetcars through on the Beaver Street alignment, but on PRIVATE right-of-way. Put a gingerbread station near the creek, a few walks, clean the place up and American Enterprise would do the rest.
On that track Concrete does make better track but that's more an LRT thing, 3' - 4' of excavation. Streetcar can use panel track with flat steel ties, which are then embedded in concrete. A stronger system is BUCKET TRACK, (Think 5 gallon paint bucket of concrete) with rail clips on the top. None of these have the good old railroad smell!! OCKLAWAHA
OC - I find it very hard to build a river walk when Maxwell House's truck depot consumes so much of the space along there. What is along Hogan's creek anyway? JEA treatment facility, the Arthritis building (which I hear is a signature or 2 away from becoming HQ for the Jax Historic Society, YAY), some private business structures, and then lots of brush and debris past the Adams Street and Duval Street overpasses. Then it gets residential, turns near the armory and heads Northwest, past the Health department.
Clean it up I say, but the Feds are the only ones with money. We all know its a problem, where are the funds Ander? Where are the funds Corrine? Let's fix what we know to be a problem, get people down to the creek, using the parks, using the areas around them. Once we have the people, we have the need for more transportation. Yeah, congestion will suck, but at least we prove the NEED for the transportation before we build it ahead of any of the projects to get people to use the parks and places that the transportation is needed.
If we wanted trolleys at the beach, some would suggest we build the trolleys and hope that the people come and inhabit the area. Where does that happen? How realisitic is it? I am no fan of JTA and their lack of vision, but I know we have to a complete plan on all aspects of growth, not just transportation to make rail a viable solution. With this administration, I don't see it.