Peyton's Struggles: Building Yesterday's City
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1315-p1010694.JPG)
A guest editorial written by Milt Hayes, Jr., a local urban planner, calling for a second look at the purposes of the Better Jacksonville Plan.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/983
Maybe COJ should just purchase a set of the plans for the Orange County Courthouse in Orlando. Their entire courthouse complex cost $183 million, and consists of 1.5 million square feet of floor area, looks good, and is primarily vertical, thus freeing up land for ultimate RFP/private development/taxation.
Here's a link to photos:
http://www.emporis.com/en/il/pc/?id=123054&aid=8
Having to duplicate another city's efforts seems ludicrous, until you consider how Jax has managed to fubar this project thus far...
And, Peyton, forget NEW roads to your family's/friends' properties in Clay Cty. Repair the ones we've got and funnel funding toward desired urban transit - commuter rail, light rail, streetcar, extended skyway and watertaxi.
I have always thought the same thing about the Orange County Courthouse. Or even the Federal Courthouse here in town.
I have always though a twin for the Federal courthouse would be the best option.
keep in mind that the cost # that has been bantered around here includes rehab of the old federal courthouse and renovation of the Ed Ball building (I assume we all think these are good things) and land acquisition...the cost for the new building itself is around $240 million.
Also, the Orlando courthouse was built about 10 years ago....even with the recent decreases, construction costs have basically doubled since then.
^Good points.
Thanks for keeping us all in check, Mayor tufsu. ;)
The same stupidity that built a courthouse and city hall on the river is still alive and well in Jacksonville. The only difference from now and then is we just moved stupid to a different part of town. By building a multi-block courthouse campus we are probably robbing the city of just as much tax revenue potential as we did on a smaller footprint on the river front. Jacksonville leaders' incompetence is as hardy as the cockroach.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 12, 2009, 11:59:40 AM
keep in mind that the cost # that has been bantered around here includes rehab of the old federal courthouse and renovation of the Ed Ball building (I assume we all think these are good things) and land acquisition...the cost for the new building itself is around $240 million.
Also, the Orlando courthouse was built about 10 years ago....even with the recent decreases, construction costs have basically doubled since then.
A more accurate comparison would be the recently built Mecklenburg County Courthouse in Charlotte. It was completed in 2007 at the cost of $148 million or $261/sf. In Jan. 2008, our courthouse numbers were at $272 million or $340/sf.
Mecklenburg County Courthouse - Uptown Charlotte
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3570-361596563_ebbb1a17c2_b.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/648/115/
Although the new design leaves a lot to be desired, it is better than Peyton's first pass (see below).
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/courthouses/PeytonCourthouse1.jpg)
However, how the courthouse fits in with its surroundings continues to be the most important overlooked factor. Somebody in the city should really pay attention to potential pedestrian movement and how to best take advantage of it.
Wow! Never seen anything like that before! What a unique design. All it needs is a circular drive in front and it would look like an overblown McMansion.
QuoteLater, when it became apparent that the Cannon design proposal was financially indefensible even in terms of Jacksonville’s traditionally approving stance toward looting the public treasury, the original consultant team was sent packing and we were left with the present, very expensive hole in the middle of Jacksonville’s downtown.
Hear, Hear!!
The courthouse is another Skyway project. A preordained outcome was determined and consultants brought in to "justify" the decision. (And you wonder why I wax cynical about consultants? Has Jax ever done any public works project without them? What is our batting average of living in bliss when these projects are finished? But I digress....) Common sense went out the window. From the very first concepts made public, lay citizens such as myself questioned why it was some 7 blocks instead of one block vertically like the Feds (just think how another 20 to 30 story building could add to our skyline). Apparently the judges had their ideas and no one wanted to take them on. After all, we have had more than a few politicos from the State Attorney's office! And who do they work with?
And the outer beltway is for what purpose? It sure doesn't look like a very direct route from I-95 to I-10. It's miles from most existing civilization and its clear it is for the sole purpose of enriching surrounding land holders while creating a few hundred more square miles of urban sprawl. Clay and St. Johns have already admitted it's about bringing more jobs to their counties. With jobs come roof tops and shopping centers and asphalt.
Be careful what you ask for - your quiet and quaint, traffic free, rural way of life is about to disappear. Want to see the future - just camp out along the Buckman Bridge for a few minutes as out of towners short cut through the 'hood leaving nothing behind but their vehicle exhaust. ???
huh?
the courthouse takes up 2-4 blocks...not including the garage (which serves the entire area) and the re-use of the old federal courthouse....now, I'd like a more vertical design too, but you really need to get your facts straight!
As for the outer beltway...I don't support it becuase it will encourage more sprawl...but a primary purpose is to provide a bypass of the urban area for through traffic (especially freight)....right now the portion of I-10 east of Chafee Road becxomes quite congested, and we all know what the Buckman Bridge on 295 is like....and as for costs, it will be a toll road, so it will be paid for by users
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 12, 2009, 09:35:06 PM
huh?
the courthouse takes up 2-4 blocks...not including the garage (which serves the entire area) and the re-use of the old federal courthouse....now, I'd like a more vertical design too, but you really need to get your facts straight!
Tufsu, you conveniently didn't bother to clarify my post. First, I, like many, was referring to the entire project, not the single building. I think that was obvious to most people familiar with what is going on and that they would understand what I meant without further clarification. Since you worked so hard to back out pieces of the project, it seems you knew exactly what I meant by 7 blocks and chose to be literal about it for your own purposes (are you involved in this project?). [P.S. I also left my self some room when I said "some" 7 blocks. In my world, that is equivalent to "approximately" 7 blocks - so another clue not to be too literal.]
It was disingenuous of you to not acknowledge that indeed 7 blocks are associated with the total courthouse project and that, through your eyes, you just want to look at the main structure (still a waste on any block beyond the first). As to
my 7 block approach, it's the same as the City's own Courthouse Audit document (March 14, 2008) below in which they refer to the "courthouse campus of 7 blocks". My point was we don't need 7 blocks for a courthouse campus, we need one tower with every one in it. We should have skipped the parking garage (another scandalous City deal that should be investigated! Show me anyone who should be GUARANTEED a profit on their money making investment while the taxpayers have 100% of the risk!) as a separate structure. Put a few spaces under the tower and let the rest use our beloved Skyway, existing parking, or a shuttle bus from other parking lots underutilized elsewhere.
I don't mind being corrected if I am wrong and would be the first to apologize. But I don't appreciate someone manipulating what I said for their own purposes.
>>>>
City of Jacksonville Courthouse Audit, March 14, 2008, Finding #2:The City’s decision to build out instead of up increased the cost of the project significantly. The Federal Government built its courthouse as a 14 story tower on one block in downtown Jacksonville. In contrast,
the City opted for a courthouse campus of 7 blocks, with one block being the site of the old federal courthouse and one block being used for a parking garage. The City acquired the old federal courthouse in exchange for a long-term parking lease valued at $875,000. The City spent $23,118,666 to acquire the other six blocks. The City’s costs include much more than just the compensation for the land. The costs include appraiser and attorney’s fees, tenant relocation costs, expert witness fees, and demolition costs. The decision to build out also increased costs by closing streets and incorporating their former footprint in the footprint of the new courthouse. This decision caused the City to incur millions of dollars of expense to relocate the utilities that ran within the right of way of the former streets.<<<<
QuoteAs for the outer beltway...I don't support it becuase it will encourage more sprawl...but a primary purpose is to provide a bypass of the urban area for through traffic (especially freight)....right now the portion of I-10 east of Chafee Road becxomes quite congested, and we all know what the Buckman Bridge on 295 is like....and as for costs, it will be a toll road, so it will be paid for by users
I don't care what the rationale is for the road. If it is built it will create sprawl and it will just be another problem NOT solved, but expanded, by another road. You don't think people used the same argument to justify I-295 - that it would divert traffic around the City to avoid congestion in the City. How many rings do you think we need to build before it actually works? When the Buckman opened, you could shoot a canon across it and not hit anyone for years and then it hit a threshold and traffic exploded. The same will happen with this road eventually. Unless you reduce the population of Florida or create density around mass transit, it will never change.
You are being seduced by the inertia of our society!
STJR, I didnt agree with your justification on your Skyway stance, but I certainly agree with what you've said here.
fine so its 7 blocks...does any one really want the old federal courthouse building or the Ed Ball building to either rot or be torn down....the City is doing adaptive reuse, which we should all applaud!
and btw....no, I'm not involved in the project in any way!
as for the road, I'm pretty sure I know a bit more about transportation and the effects of building roads than you give me credit for....you will get no disagreement from me that the outer beltway will lead to more sprawl, which is why I stated my opposition to it....but its also important to recognize that there is/will be a capacity problem on portions of I-10, I-295, and I-95 that must be addressed in some way (commuter rail, HOT lanes, dedicated truck lanes, etc.).
The most affordable option is to invest in rail, both freight and passenger. With rising fuel costs on the horizon, expect to see a shift in the way we ship freight and use trucks.
Nevertheless, we'll blow the current opportunity we have to alter our sprawl development patterns if the Mayor successfully takes existing transit money to invest in more roads.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 13, 2009, 08:33:52 AM
fine so its 7 blocks...does any one really want the old federal courthouse building or the Ed Ball building to either rot or be torn down....the City is doing adaptive reuse, which we should all applaud!
Well... thanks for the "apology".
As to the old federal courthouse and Ed Ball building, great, let them be reused. They just don't have to be a part of the new courthouse complex. Let them be renovated for other purposes, maybe for private sector purposes (now, that's a novel idea!).
Glad we all agree on the outer beltway. That's a project that needs to be killed before people start saying we have too much invested in it, can't walk away from that investment, need to "finish" or expand it to salvage what is already spent, and even if it is not the best decision, given the investment, it would cost even more to start over. Sound familiar? :D
An email response from the authorQuoteHello --
The way in which you presented my Folio rant was a very thoughtful one, and the graphics really help, thanks! A few further observations, however.
First Point
Judging from the responses so far, even your audience is missing the main "point" of all this -- i.e., the institutionalized lack of anything resembling good planning and urban design in this town. We suffer from a gestalt of non-planning, if you will, that permeates everything that happens in this community. Again, all of the problems that we are seeing are not "acts of God," but part of a clearly discernible pattern of deliberate neglect. But why do so few of us see things in this fashion? Is urban design that "hard" to understand?
Point Two
The Mecklenburg County Courthouse (as shown in the commentary section) could -- and SHOULD -- easily win Jim Kunstler's award as the eyesore of the month! [As Jim would probably say, lol, "It's a f***ing abomination!"]
As bad as things are here in Cowford, at least we have been -- so far! -- spared this kind of a postmodern architectural wet dream of a building. This thing is so brutally, godawful UGLY that it defies belief that the poor citizens of Charlotte will now have to live with it for who knows how many decades. The proposed Duval County Courthouse -- thanks to KBJ Architects -- at least has enough sense of scale, proportion, and the use of well chosen classic architectural referents to be "read" -- quite properly -- as a recognizable piece of civic architecture. In this respect, even the original "neo-Fascist" Cannon design was better than this reeking abomination. Sadly, KBJ's original entry into the design "competition" [which, under any honest set of circumstances would have handily won the day] had a much lighter and open touch than the most recent iteration, and would, I believe, have been a true piece of landmark architecture for Jacksonville.
Sadly, the proposed county courthouse building -- again, with due gratitude to KBJ architects for their efforts -- is not quite as open and airy as their original design, but it does carry over some of its design elements. And, as I say, it at least "looks" (reads) like a courthouse. Now, if someone in authority can just make the conceptual leap to consider how this landmark building can be used to facilitate the melding of the core downtown into an integrated, functional whole, THEN we may finally be getting our money's worth, whatever the damned things costs...
Milt
So what position does "Milt" have at KBJ?
That aside, it "looks like a courthouse" ... from 1890.
I think he is right it looks like a courthouse. Just a courthouse for the burbs. I could live with it if the first floor was designed to interact with people on the street. I would prefer however a smaller footprint with more vertical design.
I guess Milt has a preference for conservative architecture. While the Charlotte courthouse won't win any design awards, it was built for $200 million less. For that price, they could put up a vertical Ed Ball Building, as far as I'm concerned. Depending on how competent your architect is, even a basic box can be made to be attractive. Personally, I don't care what the thing looks like as long as it is A.) affordable and B.) properly integrated into the downtown landscape. Unfortunately, its fails on both of these issues.
If we don't build the piece of s!%* as presently designed, Peyton won't get his "arch d'triumph" to praise his time as mayor. What he doesn't realize is that he is stamping the city with an icon of his Napoleon Complex with this courthouse design! And all of his friend can't loot the city treasury in the process. Instead of calling it a "Courthouse Complex", maybe everyone should start referring to it as the "Napoleon Complex". Maybe that will spur a more modest design that fits our city.
I will now only refur to new courthouse as the Napoleon Complex.
I'm not understanding why this thing isn't vertical.
Real estate, and indeed the rise and fall and re-rise of urban areas, is totally cyclical. Eventually, there will be a demand for land area downtown, and that courthouse will be taking up a hundred times more space than it needs to.
The feds build their courthouse on one block, went vertical, and didn't waste space. Not to mention they saved what? $200+ million over Duval County's proposal, to get almost the same amount of usable area. This courthouse debacle is just effin' ridiculous.
I don't think modern or High Rise is ugly - I do think our latest plan looks like an "EXPLOSION IN A PILLAR FACTORY."
(http://www.pbase.com/mobuchu/image/74690997/large.jpg)
Charlottes ugly? Where?
(http://beazleylaw.com/images/Orange_County_Courthouse.jpg)
Orange County - Orlando Florida - "Mickeys copy of Miami-Dades Classic Courthouse".
(http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/display/4fe1caa4-1fbb-413f-ab48-fdd9ebd156cf.jpg)
Miami-Dade County Courthouse classic.
(http://protophoto.com/images/poly/DSC_6592.JPG)
The Scott Matheson Courthouse on State Street, Salt Lake City
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2229/2254485501_d4d689b4c6.jpg)
Bernalillo county courthouse
(http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/zahamadrid3.jpg)
Madrid... No NOT the one in New Mexico.
(http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200806/r258271_1070804.jpg)
Perth Australia
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2254/2104068327_1673b44682.jpg)
Brasil? Uh Huh!
(http://www.building.co.uk/Pictures/436xAny/u/e/n/foster_moscow1.jpg)
Moscow's new Justice Complex Plan
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3020/2310818539_f5d6c70f54.jpg
Colombia
(http://www.cartagenarealty.com/mapa/ZonaNorte/barcelonadeindias/vista-aerea.jpg)
Okay, it's not a courthouse, but it does give an idea how a MODERN community in Colombia is designed so it is livable and walkable. These homes are near the beach, where it is warm HOT year around.
OCKLAWAHA
The Salt Lake image is actually the Miami-Dade County Courthouse. Personally, I believe that architecture should be reflective of the time you live in now instead of poor attempts to copy styles from the past. If Jacksonville's architects were not progressive 100 years ago, this city would still be full of two story wood frame commercial structures. Some where along the way, we lost our mojo. We need to get it back.
Bay Street - 1864
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/general/n033108.jpg)
Thanks for the heads-up Lake, I don't know what happened to the SLC photo, but I went back and put some back in that fell through the cracks. There's also a cork-screw design in Moscow, but I couldn't find it this time around.
OCKLAWAHA
Yikes!!
That Moscow complex must have been Jax's inspiration. Call it Russian Empire - Stalinist Period typified by a grandiose, foreboding, and overbearing fortress complex with no warmth, grace, style, or connectivity to its surroundings less the populace think that justice is a part OF, as opposed to "apart" FROM, the citizens upon which it is imposed!
Is it designed to seal its occupants within or to bar the people without?! On this basis, Jax's courthouse will be a resounding success.
I think the only solution for urbanizing the city "the right way" would be to simply vote out the council members that stand against anything practical, such as, the preservation of Firehouse NO.5, the utilization of the convention center in the way it was originally intended, as a transit hub. Basically everything on this website that needs to be addressed should be endorsed by city council, or at least should be looked at from every possible angle, all experts should be asked for their input.
You guys are lucky Peyton didn't put gas pumps and car wash in front of new courthouse.
I'll say it again. We need to have all of our civic buildings designed by Latin American architects. Have you ever seen such a collection of butt ugly buildings as the American and Australian examples?
The original Duval County courthouse design by Cannon is actually uglier than the current one.
A vagrant thought; does Gate Concrete make pre-cast concrete columns? ;)
I have actually heard Peyton at a building ribbon cutting ceremony state how he loved the design of the building due to the amount of precast concrete used.