Streetcars Coming to Downtown Jacksonville?
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1589-newnan_street.jpg)
An in depth look at the results of JTA's Streetcar Pre-Feasibility Study. This study attempts to define a basic implementation strategy as well as identify and assess the districts a streetcar could potentially serve.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/979
Awesome! Is there a pdf downloadable version? Even the enlarged version is difficult to read...
Here you go: http://jtafla.com/pdf/Streetcars/StreetcarRReport090808.pdf
Wow, this look great.
Unfortunately, this thing will also be indefinately delayed if Peyton's road economic stimulus plan takes away transit money. While I'm not sold on the phase 1 routes shown, $65 million for a +4 mile streetcar line will benefit the community more than spreading out $100 million on minor isolated road improvements.
I think this is great as well and hopefully the buslines and other public modes of transport will efficiently hook up to the street car lines in case people would like to "street car it" downtown and other areas they would serve rather than "bus it." I'm not that enthused either with the layouts; I think the layouts should also include the port, all of Eastside, a little more to the north of Springfield, and a little more west of Riverside and Brooklyn possibly over to a mile or two east of Cassat. Anyhoo, hope it works and most of all, hope that it is thoroughly planned with a firm feasibility study done before the lay the tracks and put on the streetcars.
Heights Unknown
Neither of the 'phase 1' options include the stadium/sports complex as a destination. To my uneducated eyes, this seems short-sighted. While I love the potential coverage of the streetcars' route as envisioned, I would think the Sports Complex would be more of a priority for the initial phase.
What are the possibilities, if any, that such a project could be privately funded?
I know if I had the assets, I'd have already gotten it started. ;)
Looks like a good study. I'm with Lake on the alignment though.
IMO, all these studies should still take a back seat to commuter rail. The key is and will always be feeding the downtown system with riders, not distributing the ones that are already there.
This is the best alignment listed. The proposed extension of the skyway through Brooklyn should also be stretched down Riverside and around the corner down Roselle St. and connect to the streetcar line at Park.
(http://media.metrojacksonville.com/photos/images/transit/jta_streetcar_study/streetcarrreport090808_page_25.jpg)
Why is the BRT crap still in there?
Personally, I don't like any of them, but I like the fact that we are discussing this.
Without a reliable feeder system into that area, such as commuter rail, this is going to be a lot like the Skyway. A system connecting a few locations that will have limited riders becuase they will have to drive down there to get on it anyway.
Also I feel that this would be ineffiicient and expanding the Skyway would be better suited for the area it is covering. For instance if you were wanting to go to Five Points from San Marco. You would have to take the Skyway over the river and get off just to go to a street car station and take that down to Five Points. For the hassle it would be easier, and quicker to drive. Also I believe it would be more attractive to people if they only had to use one form of transit to get where they are going.
If however the entire route including all the areas that are suggested in the study is implemented, then the Skyway should be removed to avoid duplicating efforts.
Quote from: Jason on January 09, 2009, 09:55:05 AM
Why is the BRT crap still in there?
This is because a neutered version of BRT is still apart of JTA's long range rapid transit plan. However, as long as its an express bus service, using existing streets and complementing rail corridors, its alright.
Quote from: Steve on January 09, 2009, 10:34:34 AM
Personally, I don't like any of them, but I like the fact that we are discussing this.
What alignment would you prefer?
I don't think this is ambitious enough, especially if it represents a long-term master plan. In fact, I don't recall ever seeing here a master plan for the ENTIRE First Coast region showing rail, streetcar, bus, and the dreaded skyway all in ONE interconnecting grid. Is there such a plan that indicates, long term, how the WHOLE region will someday be interconnected? (see my comments below for examples). I think the first thing the public will do is say is "What plan is there to someday connect my neighborhood?". This vision is critical to gaining long term public/political support.
Also, shouldn't street cars service high density residential, not just commercial, and tie the two area types together? If so, early phases should be considered to run down Beaver Street to at least Stockton, run down Stockton to Riverside Ave. and return Downtown. You would pick up lots of residential (multiple income levels to broaden support as well), the Farmers Market, St. Vincents, the Cummer, nodes with I-10 (at Stockton), I-95 (at Beaver), and both North/South railroads (at Beaver) and East/West railroads (at Stockton) if mass rail ever comes along and everything in between.
I am thinking about the street cars in New Orlean's Garden District as an example.
If you want more 24 x 7 use, I think we need to connect more than just office buildings to ferry workers to lunch and parking. More residential would do that.
Longterm, I could see street cars running to Avondale/Ortega/Lakeshore, Hendricks/San Jose/Lakewood, St. Nicholas/St. Augustine Road to University, Beaver Street to McDuff/Edgewood/Commonwealth, and Myrtle/8th Street. The mass rail could go the longer distances terminating at Orange Park/Green Cove Springs, Mandarin/ St. Johns County/St. Augustine, Airport/Yulee/Fernandina, Cecil/Normandy, Callahan, Baldwin, etc. Maybe one day, even the old Beach rail could be returned down Beach (with a cross connect transit system to Arlington/Regency) or Bulter Blvds. Now that would be real urban system.
Stjr you will enjoy many of the mass transit articles posted here.
STJR....the plan you are looking for is the North Florida TPO Long Range Transportation Plan....the update to it, Envision2035, is currently underway....it includes roads, transit, and bike/ped projects.
The vision will be delineated as both a Needs Plan and a Cost feasible Plan and should be finihsed next fall.
This looks like a really neat study. I look forward to reading it in full detail later. At first glance the options to 5 points are nice; however the proposal seems to still reflect the same "connecting nowhere to nowhere" problem that has plagued the skyway.
So the projected cost is $65 million for 4 lane-miles (i.e. two miles total)? Cincinnati's proposed streetcar is estimated for over $100 million for the same distance. What gives?
Quote from: stjr on January 09, 2009, 01:19:04 PM
I don't recall ever seeing here a master plan for the ENTIRE First Coast region showing rail, streetcar, bus, and the dreaded skyway all in ONE interconnecting grid. Is there such a plan that indicates, long term, how the WHOLE region will someday be interconnected?
Stjr, go to the "First Coast MPO" website to view the transportation master plans for the entire First Coast Region. Also, be prepared to have a heart attack. There
isn't a real plan for interconnecting the entire region with transit. However, they have amazingly extensive plans for even more highway projects, including an outer beltway.
Cincinnati's proposal is extremely expensive for a streetcar line. Portland's initial streetcar system was built for $11 million/mile, Little Rock's came in at $8 million/mile and Memphis' Madison Avenue line came in at $12 million/mile.
QuoteThis looks like a really neat study. I look forward to reading it in full detail later. At first glance the options to 5 points are nice; however the proposal seems to still reflect the same "connecting nowhere to nowhere" problem that has plagued the skyway.
One of the main complaints about Tampa's TECO streetcar line is that it does not serve the transit needs of local residents. We should not seek to repeat the same mistake with any phase of any rail project (commuter rail, light rail or streetcar). If this mistake is made again, it will be difficult to push for expansion (ie. TECO streetcar, Jax Skyway).
To successfully implement a regional rail plan, each phase should be planned to attract a diverse amount of ridership. They should also tap into different markets to attract continuous around the clock ridership. What's shown clearly misses major office complexes (Fidelity, BCBS, Everbank, etc.) and does not stretch into one dense residential neighborhood.
The loops (couplets) are also questionable. Personally, I prefer stretching lines out as far as possible. Get rid of the couplets and you can probably stretch the line into residential areas of both Springfield and Riverside for the same price. Also, the Five Points couplet has three blocks between the two one way only lines. The effectiveness of couplets fall when they are more than one block apart.
Quote from: stjr on January 09, 2009, 01:19:04 PM
I don't think this is ambitious enough, especially if it represents a long-term master plan. In fact, I don't recall ever seeing here a master plan for the ENTIRE First Coast region showing rail, streetcar, bus, and the dreaded skyway all in ONE interconnecting grid. Is there such a plan that indicates, long term, how the WHOLE region will someday be interconnected? (see my comments below for examples). I think the first thing the public will do is say is "What plan is there to someday connect my neighborhood?". This vision is critical to gaining long term public/political support.
This is the closest thing to a map of a long range plan that I can find online. It shows commuter rail, BRT, skyway and waterborne routes together.
http://www.jtafla.com/Graphics/RTS/RTSsystemMap.htm
It seems there are a variety of different options shown in this study, so the door is open to further discussion and realignment of any route. The Feasibility Study will help to define an exact route. I have a hard time believing that the 5-Points area doesn't have high density residential uses around it. There are several apartments, condos and homes within an easy walking distance of the 5-Points/Publix area. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither will a Jacksonville streetcar system. I am sure there will be plenty more time for discussion on this matter. In the meantime, I think it's a step in the right direction, who would have thought three years ago JTA would be doing streetcar studies?
No one. We just have to make sure all the transit money isn't raided by the Mayor's economic stimulus proposal. Hopefully, the city council will understand the importance of having a viable mass transit system in a region with 1.3 million residents.
I agree with you on that Lake. We can't raid what we have left for transit.
(http://www.canalstreetcar.com/photos/200711/932_on_ncarrollton20071101a_500.jpg)
A good friend at JTA recently asked me. "Bob, why do you like tracks in the median, isn't that the old way?" YES! But my young friends notice this car in the photo - STREETCAR doors open on BOTH SIDES, no need to step into traffic or to take up someones curb lane. BTW, still think all those wires and trolleys are ugly?
Why can't JTA - GF - RSH get the concept of MIX SELLS? They seem to think that mix is having all the different modes running next to eachother.
Jacksonville and long range transit planning remind me of a man who spent $1,000 dollars on fine Italian shoes. They were delivered perfect in every way, except they didn't come with soles. But being one to run with the "Big Dogs" he ties them on his feet and jogs down the nature trail. Suddenly a sand-spur stops him cold. Angry at the shoes failure, he throws them into the brush never to be seen again. When a simple trip downtown to the cobbler would have added a bit of sole for $50 dollars. THIS CITY NEEDS SOUL!
Worse still, when we try and come up with a mix plan all I've ever seen us produce is duplication. Duplication of services forces your very own transit system to compete with itself. A horrible waste of assets. Let's say for example the guy in the above story is determined to get it right "this time". So he orders every make, model, style, color and shape one can imagine - but since they all go on his left foot, he is obviously a JTA consultant. Even the "Three Stooges" understood the words "SPREAD OUT!"
BOB? WHY THE OLD STYLE STREETCARS? Observe the two photos, and you tell me which is a fit for our inner city neighborhoods:
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/ortega_car_stop_possibility.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2210/2433491531_a4e1ddacfb.jpg)
We've taken a good look at this, and frankly the Streetcar needs to stay out of San Marco or Southside until such time as there is a way across the river and funding...Maybe something like a NEW Matthews Bridge.
I don't care for the plan either, as it involves two more troublesome points. Either the Riverside viaduct which is heavy with freeway type traffic and ramps - not streetcar friendly. The Park Street Viaduct is even worse, with only a 16 foot ground clearence from the old rail yard below, the only way to get Amtrak and Commuter Rail platforms under it is to dig out all of the fill that was put on the flood plain after the station was wiped out in a tropical storm circa 1910 +/-. They convinced the FEC to lower their track to near water level to gain the 23' foot railroad clearence, but this won't fly on the lower NORTH end of that bridge. So the bridge is going to come down, IF we get either Amtrak hub, or Commuter Rail of any kind. That leaves us only one way over the rails and creek. M Y R T L E A V E N U E Subway. Yeah, you read that right, the center section of Myrtle Avenue has streetcar tracks buried 6' below the curent pavement level under the concrete filler. "But Bob, it floods..." Yep, ever wonder where the big pumps and drains were? 6' BELOW the pavement! DUH.
I must warn Mike Miller and company that reading the following might cause shortness of breath.
(http://bc.transport2000.ca/images/TL_2007_NFI_E60LF_2533.jpg)
The OCKLAWAHA concept calls for more BRT then anything JTA has EVER PUBLISHED. I'd use I-10 to jump the streetcar rich Riverside area and get onto Roosevelt-Blanding-Normandy etc. I'd re-route EVERYTHING on the Southside away from the skyway and even build a busway where South Gary Street is today. Baptist would no longer be in a transit no-mans land. The trunk lines and downtown shuttles would ALL BE ELECTRIC trolley bus and use green energy.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/36/LasVegasMonorail.2.jpg)
The little Skyway would grow up by only a couple of miles in order to become a transit system rather then a horizontal elevator. Skyway stations would change into markets, vendors, botiques, and become self supporting destinations. Patio resturant on the upper deck at San Marco Station? Why not - it's certainly not crowded. The lines would tap N. Main Streetcar, Stadium area, San Marco at Atlantic Commuter Rail Station, Riverside streetcar at Roselle and Park. NO DUPLICATION OF ROUTE. A possible addition to my map might be from the current "San Marco Station" to Atena and Baptist-Nemours.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/StreetcarLoungesounyry.jpg)
Streetcars would be heritage type reproduction NEW cars. We would order them with all the creature comforts of modern streetcars - AC - HEAT - PLUSH SEATS - ADA etc... but save a ton of money because of the period design. Beside's NOTHING will be a better fit in SPRINGFIELD, FAIRFIELD, BROOKLYN, RIVERSIDE, AVONDALE etc... then a period streetcar. It also gives us the chance to pioneer a bit and purchase reproductions of the famous "Hollywood Star LOUNGE cars" we once had. These party cars could become a world famous attraction for charters and good times. (The originals had plush seats, brass railings, open observation lounge platforms on the ends, restroom, kitchenette/bar). Tell me THAT they wouldn't stay busy.
(http://www.morscher.com/rr/1999/19990623_01.jpg)
Commuter Rail would scrap the stupid stop planned for the "Prudential Station" in favor of the more traditional station at San Marco and Atlantic, where BRT-SKYWAY-COMMUTER RAIL would all meet. The Skyway already serves the PRU.
The Sports district would see all 4 modes coming in from different area's for max coverage.
Water Taxis would expand a small amout to take in Randolph/Sports area, Memorial Park/5-Points and local stops in between.
THE PLAN:
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/streetcarbob2.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/OcklawahaSignature.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/trolleyburn.jpg)
Comment la douce vengeance - General Motors!
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/GRAPHIC-LOGODOCTORED-1.jpg)
Quote from: fsujax on January 09, 2009, 03:01:36 PM
In the meantime, I think it's a step in the right direction, who would have thought three years ago JTA would be doing streetcar studies?
ME!OCKLAWAHAPlanning for the REVOLUTION since 1968
QuoteStjr, go to the "First Coast MPO" website to view the transportation master plans for the entire First Coast Region. Also, be prepared to have a heart attack. There isn't a real plan for interconnecting the entire region with transit. However, they have amazingly extensive plans for even more highway projects, including an outer beltway.
QuoteThis is the closest thing to a map of a long range plan that I can find online. It shows commuter rail, BRT, skyway and waterborne routes together.
http://www.jtafla.com/Graphics/RTS/RTSsystemMap.htm
Well..., I looked at these sites and I agree. Not very impressive and/or detailed. Also, a lot of zig zag pathways and loop-de-loops. I don't know what we spend on consultants for all these studies, but I think, just using my experience as a life long Jax resident who has been a careful observer of its last few decades of growth and behavior patterns - and adding a dose of on-the-ground knowledge and common sense - my schemes roughed out in my earlier post are very similar or better (IMHO ;) ) than what these agencies are coming up with. Give me a full day, a pen, and a map, and I could easily take it up a few levels, I'm sure. No need to spend millions of dollars and years of time cooking this stuff up and then being off by 90%!
I am advocating for a community-based, common sense, well reasoned (not politically twisted), comprehensive, efficient, relatively simple/straight forward regional and urban interconnected MASS transportation system that is not distorted by gimmicks and Federal agendas or influence.
We need to stay away from piecemeal designed, pork barrel, please-everyone-all-the-time, outsiders-know-better-than-us solutions, and PATIENTLY FOCUS on following/implementing a thoughtful multi-decade regional master plan for the next 25 to 30 years and we will be in good shape.
I also think if we did an adequate and successful job on mass transit, the pressure to invest and build some of these future highways (again, let's remove the politics supporting them) such as the outer beltway could be alleviated. We might find people less inclined to want to live further out if they had more efficient and reliable access to the ammenities within the existing developed areas.
Hmmm... maybe my odds will be better with the newly available Power Ball lottery!
Quote from: fsujax on January 09, 2009, 03:01:36 PM
Rome wasn't built in a day and neither will a Jacksonville streetcar system. I am sure there will be plenty more time for discussion on this matter. In the meantime, I think it's a step in the right direction...
Rome was not built in a day, but with limited resources, we need to get the most out of our initial investment. Getting the most, means taking advantage of existing destinations and stretching this thing out as far as we can for a given price. I'll try to explain my position graphically by showing the shortfalls of one of the consultant's plans.
Quote from: fsujax on January 09, 2009, 03:01:36 PM
It seems there are a variety of different options shown in this study, so the door is open to further discussion and realignment of any route. The Feasibility Study will help to define an exact route. I have a hard time believing that the 5-Points area doesn't have high density residential uses around it. There are several apartments, condos and homes within an easy walking distance of the 5-Points/Publix area.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/streetcar-missed-opportunity.jpg)
1. The six red dots represent major existing destinations that have been either overlooked or ignored. These are:
- Blue Cross Blue Shield
- Everbank Plaza
- DuPont Trust
- Fidelity's complex
- Riverside Artist Market/Northbank Riverwalk
- Cummer Museum
We're avoiding 10,000 office workers, an artist market and soon-to-be, the second largest museum in the state. A museum that attracted 123,000 visitors in 2006. While Park Street provides a straight line into Five Points, is it more important to success of the initial line and long term expansion goals?
2. The entire initial line is double tracked. Is this really necessary considering the initial system will probably have around six cars total? We need to think "affordability" with a goal of getting the most out of our initial investment. Instead of building a short line full of bells and whistles, its better to keep things simple. One way to stretch our dollars would be to build a bi-directional single line system with occassional passing sidings. By doing this, it will then be possible to stretch the initial segment into nearby neighborhoods like Riverside and Springfield. Unless someone is donating a wad of extra cash, double track when absolutely necessary.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2173-tacomadome4.jpg)
The Tacoma Link: An example of a bidirectional single line modern streetcar system.http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=921.0
3. The Five Points couplet has three blocks between one way lines. Loops (as I like to call them) don't work well when spaced out more than a block or so. For example, a tourist visiting Cummer would not be able to use the line to access Memorial Park, Publix or the restaurants along Margaret because it does not go in that direction.
4. While there is dense housing around Five Points, why not stretch further into Riverside to become more accessible to a larger local ridership base. The more the merrier, right? By double tracking and including two couplets, in the initial segment, $65-$85 million is then spent without truly penetrating one dense urban core neighborhood. I find it hard to come up with a logical reason not to push the initial line into pedestrian friendly residential districts if it can be done for the exact same costs by not initially double tracking. In addition, by not double tracking, we have a chance to immediately connect DT with St. Vincents and Park & King, while passing a large collection of multifamily housing along the way.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/streetcar-embracing-opportunity.jpg)
In this alternative scenerio, the line brings access to Five Points, redevelopment potential to Brooklyn, while also tapping into a ridership rich area of Riverside. Because it uses less track than the original, the line could then be extended into Riverside via Oak Street (an original streetcar line) to St. Vincents/Park & King. Now, more destinations and residents are being served by the same initial investment. I would also recommend taking the same approach with the DT section.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 09, 2009, 04:00:22 PM
I don't care for the plan either, as it involves two more troublesome points. Either the Riverside viaduct which is heavy with freeway type traffic and ramps - not streetcar friendly. The Park Street Viaduct is even worse, with only a 16 foot ground clearence from the old rail yard below, the only way to get Amtrak and Commuter Rail platforms under it is to dig out all of the fill that was put on the flood plain after the station was wiped out in a tropical storm circa 1910 +/-. They convinced the FEC to lower their track to near water level to gain the 23' foot railroad clearence, but this won't fly on the lower NORTH end of that bridge. So the bridge is going to come down, IF we get either Amtrak hub, or Commuter Rail of any kind.
The subway and the roads leading to it, have been filled with tons of concrete. Digging all of that stuff out, regrading three streets (Myrtle, Bay & Dennis) and fixing/installing new pumps could be an expensive endeavor.
In the event that the Park Street viaduct would have to be demolished, it will have to be rebuilt. With this in mind, when and if, that day comes, a new bridge could easily accomodate streetcar tracks. In the meantime, the most affordable way to get to Five Points would be adding streetcar track on the top of the existing bridge. All this requires is one of the four existing lanes. Little Rock's bridge over the river is a perfect example.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1905-little_rock_20_sm_bridge_2.jpg)
To cross the river without building a new bridge, the width of lanes on an existing bridge were reduced to create a streetcar lane. Instead of cutting into the bridge, tracks were laid right on top. We can do the same with the Park Street bridge, assuming its structurally sound.(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/lr-stc-river-rail-car-ascends-grade-n-lr-bridge-close-20041204br_lh.jpg)
Quote from: stjr on January 09, 2009, 09:10:57 PM
We need to stay away from piecemeal designed, pork barrel, please-everyone-all-the-time, outsiders-know-better-than-us solutions, and PATIENTLY FOCUS on following/implementing a thoughtful multi-decade regional master plan for the next 25 to 30 years and we will be in good shape.
Great point. Austin's Capital Metro's "All Systems Go Long-Range Transit Plan" is a good example to follow. The plan highlights all proposed mass transit line improvements for the next 25 years. It includes urban commuter rail, regional commuter rail, bus rapid transit, express and local bus corridors laid all across the metropolitan area. After this plan was created, they then moved forward with getting the initial urban commuter rail project off the ground.
Here's a link to the interactive map: http://allsystemsgo.capmetro.org/all-systems-go.shtml
We need to do the same thing.
QuoteWe're avoiding 10,000 office workers, an artist market and soon-to-be, the second largest museum in the state. A museum that attracted 123,000 visitors in 2006. While Park Street provides a straight line into Five Points, is it more important to success of the initial line and long term expansion goals?....
....While there is dense housing around Five Points, why not stretch further into Riverside to become more accessible to a larger local ridership base. The more the merrier, right? By double tracking and including two couplets, in the initial segment, $65-$85 million is then spent without truly penetrating one dense urban core neighborhood. I find it hard to come up with a logical reason not to push the initial line into pedestrian friendly residential districts if it can be done for the exact same costs by not initially double tracking. In addition, by not double tracking, we have a chance to immediately connect DT with St. Vincents and Park & King, while passing a large collection of multifamily housing along the way.
Lake, I believe we are close to being on the same page on this. From my earlier post:QuoteAlso, shouldn't street cars service high density residential, not just commercial, and tie the two area types together? If so, early phases should be considered to run down Beaver Street to at least Stockton, run down Stockton to Riverside Ave. and return Downtown. You would pick up lots of residential (multiple income levels to broaden support as well), the Farmers Market, St. Vincents, the Cummer, nodes with I-10 (at Stockton), I-95 (at Beaver), and both North/South railroads (at Beaver) and East/West railroads (at Stockton) if mass rail ever comes along and everything in between.
I am thinking about the street cars in New Orlean's Garden District as an example.
If you want more 24 x 7 use, I think we need to connect more than just office buildings to ferry workers to lunch and parking. More residential would do that.
Longterm, I could see street cars running to Avondale/Ortega/Lakeshore, Hendricks/San Jose/Lakewood, St. Nicholas/St. Augustine Road to University, Beaver Street to McDuff/Edgewood/Commonwealth, and Myrtle/8th Street. The mass rail could go the longer distances terminating at Orange Park/Green Cove Springs, Mandarin/ St. Johns County/St. Augustine, Airport/Yulee/Fernandina, Cecil/Normandy, Callahan, Baldwin, etc. Maybe one day, even the old Beach rail could be returned down Beach (with a cross connect transit system to Arlington/Regency) or Bulter Blvds. Now that would be real urban system.
Yes, we're on the same page. A initial route really needs to penetrate residential areas to ultimately be successful and attract diverse round the clock ridership.
Quote from: stjr on January 09, 2009, 09:10:57 PM
I don't know what we spend on consultants for all these studies, but I think, just using my experience as a life long Jax resident who has been a careful observer of its last few decades of growth and behavior patterns - and adding a dose of on-the-ground knowledge and common sense - my schemes roughed out in my earlier post are very similar or better (IMHO ;) ) than what these agencies are coming up with. Give me a full day, a pen, and a map, and I could easily take it up a few levels, I'm sure. No need to spend millions of dollars and years of time cooking this stuff up and then being off by 90%!
Many of us could do this....there's just a few problems...
1. You need data - agencies require lots of analysis to support proposals
2. Don't assume that consultants always come up with these options - sometimes they have to do what the decision makers say....in this case, the leaders of Jacksonville and the surrounding counties
Again, if you go to the First Coast MPO (North Florida TPO) website, you can get info. on the Long Range Plan Update now underway....and how you can get involved in the process.
Thanks, tufsu, here is a link to their site: http://northfloridatpo.com/envision2035/
On that first page, is a link to the schedule of upcoming meetings.
Looks like they are having 8 meetings starting Jan. 20 in St. Johns County (Switzerland), continuing all over the area, and ending Feb. 2nd in Deerwood.
Would be great if a bunch of us could show up at these things.
Quote1. You need data - agencies require lots of analysis to support proposals
2. Don't assume that consultants always come up with these options - sometimes they have to do what the decision makers say....in this case, the leaders of Jacksonville and the surrounding counties
As we know, data can be manipulated to support just about anything. And, many times it is not well substantiated, collected, interpreted and/or projected (see my discussion on the Skyway elsewhere this week for an example of a bad decision created by such shortcomings). Presenters of data need to be thoroughly tested and cross examined to determine the adequacy and usefulness of their efforts.
In no case, should data should be weighted automatically above all other inputs such as experience, availability of resources, qualitative factors, and good ol' common sense.And sometimes, we need wish to change the data going forward by creating a new environment. This requires us to interject the overall goals we seek to achieve and blend in the facts (such as data, etc.) and circumstances (including our visions of the future) to make them a reality.
As to consultants, we agree. I have been saying all along that consultants prostitute (I mean this as a result of human tendencies not to "bite the hand that feeds them", rather than as an automatic charge they might do it with malfeasance) themselves to the government entities that hire them and their leaders (i.e. politicians) that run them. So,
let's limit the role of the consultants. (I say their highest value is to bring us best practices proven elsewhere, not tell us where to necessarily run the "tracks" or which mode is best for our community. After all, we are the ones that will be the lasting consumers of what we build and so should be able to capably judge what works for us.)
And,
let us depoliticize (as much as possible) the process by having "blue ribbon" commissions made up of a diversity of qualified, non-office holding citizens who will be the users, neighbors, and taxpayers for the systems to be built. Consultants, JTA employees, and other directly interested or paid parties (such as contractors, developers, etc.) should be contributors to the process, but not voters in the decisions due to their inherent conflicts of interest in the results.
The entire process should be TRANSPARENT (lots of town hall meetings, a web site for contributions, convenient meetings for the public to attend, aggressive publicity about progress made, open and public documentation, discussions, and testimony leading to publicly held votes, etc.). The politicians should be charged with getting the funding for the recommended plans.
Maybe, we will actually achieve a community supported, efficient, and successful mass transit system.
Jason - the route that lake posted earlier is my preference. To me, the first phase must go into a residential neighborhood, or you might as well run it 11-2 like the trolley (kind of a waste to lay track then).
Here is the important thing - whatever Phase 1 is, it must be successful by itself, or people will call it Skyway II
QuoteThanks, tufsu, here is a link to their site: http://northfloridatpo.com/envision2035/
Appreciate the link.
I had to back pedal through several links and then open a set of meeting minutes for the board and committees to see who was on the TPO and supporting it. Hey, the board has lots of respectable politicians and appointed area authority board membersfrom all the area governmental entities . Supported by transportation agency professionals.
The technical COORDINATING (say what?!) committee has a long list of governmental entity and agency employees and elected officials.
The Citizens ADVISORY committee (only recognized one name) shows no titles, credentials, or how they are appointed from what I could see. Several consultants in attendance (not sure what role they play here).
Even the Pedestrian/Bicycle ADVISORY committee is stacked with government employees.
There is a Business, Industry and Government Transportation Roundtable. I couldn't find names for this has no minutes posted but I sure got a chuckle at their self-applied acronym as the "BIG" committee.
I saw no clear description of the process for reaching decisions or making recommendations or the timetables for same or even what I thought was a precise description of the boundaries of their "authority". What happens after they act? Does the process go elsewhere or are they it? Is this the same organizational process that brought us the Skyway (they were formed in 1978)?
To sum it up, this process appears to be mostly led and controlled by very politically motivated individuals or those controlled (i.e. employed) by same and others of regular influence on decisions made "for the good of the City". I don't see where an average non-affiliated citizen would feel their input would carry much weight with this process. I think that most of the "citizen" positions that do exist are marginalized due to numbers and/or being in an "advisory" role. Also, how does this organization maintain any kind of "institutional memory" with elections and new appointments forcing so many members to revolve quite regularly? After all, they are charged with making plans for over 25 years and with updating them every 5 years. How many are around from one update to the next?
I hope I am wrong, but after reading all the bureaucratic gobbledy gook on the web site and seeing who controls it, I don't see this as the best way to make great decisions about mass and regional transit with all due respect to the many individuals who may serve it with the best of intentions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the TPO web site for the uninitiated:
What is the North Florida TPO?Federal Statute's requires every urbanized area with a population of 50,000 or more, including all contiguous urban areas with a population of 1,000 or more per square mile, to have a Metropolitan Planning Organization. By State Statute, TPO's are responsible for transportation related air, noise and water quality planning and the development of the:
Unified Planning Work Program (UPWP) detailing the TPO's annual budget and planning activities;
Transportation Improvement Program (TIP) listing the funding and staging of improvements for roadways, transit, air and seaports, bicyclists, pedestrians and the transportation disadvantaged over a five-year period; and
Long Range Transportation Plan (LRTP) with a 20+ year time horizon based on current needs and forecasted future growth which lists the multi-modal transportation projects that are needed and can be funded in that timeframe.
In addition to developing these plans and programs, the North Florida TPO identifies issues, convenes stakeholders, conducts studies and develops policies in light of local, national and global trends. Recent initiatives include coordinating regional legislative priorities, integrating land use and transportation planning and preparing for increased global trade. We also address current needs and challenges that impact our daily lives through programs for commuters, the transportation disadvantaged, bicyclists and pedestrians.
Our HistoryThe First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization was officially designated in 1978 by Florida Governor Reuben Askew. An Inter-Local Agreement between the City of Jacksonville, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA), the Jacksonville Planning and Development Department, Clay County, St. Johns County and the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) first established the North Florida TPO.
In 2003 the North Florida TPO voted to become an independent regional agency, making it the third in Florida. This was a major decision that the Board made concurrent with expanding the North Florida TPO boundary to incorporate the newly designated St. Augustine Urbanized Area and portions of Clay County as a result of the 2000 Census. In 2004 the TPO boundary was expanded to include portions of Nassau County. Subsequently, the Board has added ex-officio members representing Baker, Putnam and Flagler Counties, as well as the U. S. Navy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are the TPO web site's own descriptions of its makeup:The North Florida TPO Board is comprised of elected officials and transportation agency representatives. They meet monthly to discuss issues and make informed decisions about future transportation projects, initiatives and improvements, thus providing leadership for a continuous and comprehensive transportation planning process. Currently, the TPO has fifteen voting members and five non-voting/ex officio members as listed below.
Two Clay County Commissioners
One St. Johns County Commissioner
One Nassau County Commissioner
Mayor, City of Jacksonville
Mayor, City of St. Augustine or St. Augustine Beach (rotating)
Three Jacksonville City Council Members
One Mayor from the Beaches Communities - Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach or Jacksonville Beach
Jacksonville Port Authority Board Member
Jacksonville Aviation Authority Board Member
Jacksonville Transportation Authority Board Member
St. Augustine - St. Johns County Airport Authority Board Member
Nassau County Ocean, Highway and Port Authority Board Member
Ex officio members include: District 2 Secretary, Florida Department of Transportation; a representative from the U.S. Navy and a representative from the Baker, Flagler and Putnam County Commissions.
The North Florida TPO meets monthly, except July and January, the second Thursday at 10 a.m.
The Technical Coordinating Committee (TCC) advises the TPO on technical issues concerning transportation and air quality. Membership includes transportation planners and engineers who are employed by the local governments or agencies in the region and staff members from the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, Jacksonville Port Authority, Jacksonville Aviation Authority, Florida Dept. of Transportation, Florida Dept. of Environmental Protection, City of Jacksonville Air and Water Quality Division, Jacksonville Sheriff's Office and the Northeast Florida Regional Council. The TCC meets the first Wednesday monthly, except January and July, at 10:00 a.m.
The Citizens Advisory Committee (CAC) provides an opportunity for citizens to participate in the transportation planning process and bring issues directly related to transportation or air quality to the TPO and its staff. Its membership is diverse and appointed via a number of channels including the six Citizens Planning Advisory Committees for the City of Jacksonville, the Clay, Nassau and St. Johns Boards of County Commissioners and from local neighborhood groups, the business community and other special interest groups, such as environmental organizations. The CAC meets the first Wednesday monthly, except January and July, at 6 p.m.
Bicycle/Pedestrian Advisory Committee
The Bicycle/Pedestrian Advisory Committee (B/PAC) includes citizens and agency representatives who wish to further bicycle and pedestrian facilities. Recent Federal legislation has increased the emphasis on providing alternative travel modes and many new bicycle and pedestrian facilities have been funded through the Federal Highway Administration?s Enhancement Funds administered by the Florida Department of Transportation. The B/PAC recommends facilities funding in short and long range transportation plans and also provides a forum to coordinate facilities, such as linking trails and greenways through multiple jurisdictions. The B/PAC meets the third Thursday of January, March, May, July, September and November at 5 p.m.
Business, Industry and Government Transportation Roundtable
The Business, Industry and Government (BIG) Transportation Roundtable brings representatives from rail, airport, seaport, freight, chamber of commerce and economic development interests together to address the economic impacts of transportation planning issues. The BIG Roundtable meets quarterly the first Tuesday of February, May, August and November at 9:00 a.m.
Duval County Transportation Disadvantaged Coordinating Board
The Duval County Transportation Disadvantaged Coordinating Board (TD Board) advises the TPO on issues about transportation services for the "transportation disadvantaged" that include the elderly, persons with disabilities, children at-risk and those who cannot afford transportation. The TD Board is mandated by Chapter 427, Florida Statutes and implements policies and procedures relative to eligibility, service offerings and improvements. The TD Board meets the first Thursday of February, April, June, August, October and December at 9 a.m.
As we discussed this week, I favor either route through 5-Points and either Park or Riverside between 5-Points and Forrest. North of Forrest, we really don't know until engineers check both the bridge and the tunnels which would be cheaper. My guess is the tunnel is full of debris (like the Union Station Tunnels) then just a concrete cap. State DOT called me this evening and is looking for the drawings. I requested release of public record on these facilities.
I do disagree with missing St. Vincents and Park and King district. St. Vincents is interested - already have call backs from them - headed toward meeting? and Park and King has even more blossom potential then old 5-Points. Oak is wider (has the original track bed in it too) and does pass Publix but so does Margaret and Riverside. but misses 5-Points directly, St. Vincents AND Park and King.
Ending at St. Johns and King sets up a future run to Shops of Avondale, Fairfax, Roosevelt Plaza, Edgewood, and Ingleside.
Downtown in the CBD the Consultants completely FUBAR'd the whole of Streetcar AND Commuter Rail. Making duplicate features everywhere.
Remember Amtrak telling the study group that getting to Union Station was only half the game, DISTRIBUTION past Union Station needs to be in place. They praised the Skyway but encouraged JTA to FINISH IT. Ditto the BRT and STREETCAR. Also remember that Amtrak might be the contract operator for Commuter Rail.
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteSo, let's limit the role of the consultants. (I say their highest value is to bring us best practices proven elsewhere, not tell us where to necessarily run the "tracks" or which mode is best for our community. After all, we are the ones that will be the lasting consumers of what we build and so should be able to capably judge what works for us.)
Don't agree, at least one Consultant came up with the heritage streetcar idea in 1980. At that time there were NONE - anywhere. Also at that time we still had 5 good streetcars around Jacksonville. So if your Consultant has been leading this from the get-go, has been in the business, created the idea, and grew up in Ortega... Is he still silenced? OCKLAWAHA
Ock, I made it clear that a consultant was still part of the process. I wanted to emphasize bringing "best practices" as the core of their value. If that means a Heritage Streetcar, so be it.
What I am more concerned with is consultants generating data for their well paying clients (like the JTA) "on demand" to support forgone conclusions and not-so-hidden agendas and then drowning out any input from the community because of their alleged overwhelming expertise in telling people how to do these things. Especially the multi-person, often national firms, that often ride into town on the back of over priced fees running into the millions to tell us what anyone with common sense could determine is an overstated, oversold, under supported course of action often delivered with "prejudice".
I compare it to all the giant firms in the financial services industry that have been "expertly advising" people. Overlooked was their obvious conflict of interest in that they were promoting the very products they created and pedaled. I also haven't read of many that called the current downturn yet anyone with common sense could see that dramatically rising housing prices were not sustainable, credit cards would ultimately reach a limit in providing ever increasing credit to already strapped consumers which would eventually lead to a severe curtailment in consumer spending, and that you can't regularly lend money on quickly appreciating real estate with next to no money down, the assumption of ever rising prices (never has happened in the history of investing) and financing based on floating interest rates and fixed incomes and not expect to get burned as a lender/investor.
Ock, if you are an exception, a tip of the hat to you. Being local and being small may put in you in a league apart. How have you fared squaring off with your bigger brethren in the business? Have you been given equal or greater weight when it comes to your recommendations vs. theirs? How many times are they selected over you? Just curious how the business works in the trenches.
stjr,
Be careful what you wish for. A process that maximizes community imput will probably lead to even fewer common sense solutions than the current system. The loudest "community" voices tend to come from people who desperately cling to the status quo and oppose change. Furthermore, in a city like Jacksonville, NIMBY groups tend to strongly support seperation of uses and oppose connectivity.
I agree that it's stupid to constantly pay consultants for re-studying things to which we already have the answer (i.e. the interminable "downtown" studies that never tell us anything new). However, relying on qualitative community common sense will NOT lead us to good policy overall.
Just because the people on this forum can - for free - reach the same conclusions as a consultant, doesn't mean that these solutions could happen without some sort of quantitative analysis by a professional 3rd party. Remember, many people on this forum are educated professionals in related fields. The average Jacksonville citizen is not. The average Jacksonville citizen thinks that multi-family units are dangerous, any rail is pointless, and 35 ft height limits are a good idea!
We need some sort of professional analysis in order to shut all those people up. Otherwise nothing with common sense will ever happen.
QuoteThe loudest "community" voices tend to come from people who desperately cling to the status quo and oppose change. Furthermore, in a city like Jacksonville, NIMBY groups tend to strongly support seperation of uses and oppose connectivity.
The anti Mayport cruise group is the latest example...
Quote from: stjr on January 10, 2009, 02:04:09 AM
Ock, if you are an exception, a tip of the hat to you. Being local and being small may put in you in a league apart. How have you fared squaring off with your bigger brethren in the business? Have you been given equal or greater weight when it comes to your recommendations vs. theirs? How many times are they selected over you? Just curious how the business works in the trenches.
I'm your Huckleberry!
League apart - try leigons
(http://www.aporrea.org/imagenes/2008/08/t_soldados_matan_indigenas_1_384.jpg)
Entertainment in the town square.
fared just fine - going where these blue chips are afraid to go... (ever see rockets hitting a capital building from your hotel window? Rescued in an APV? Had dinner with M-19 and argued politics? seen a sidewalk sprayed by machine gun fire?) I have and I guess I love the daring of fate... Tell you what though, it sure as HELL ain't Vietnam back in the day.
Equal recommendations? Not in Florida, Let's see:
Subscription bus service
Central Florida Commuter Rail
Conversion of original bus system into a hub and spokes with outter connecting bands
Light Rail in Jacksonville
Streetcar in Jacksonville
Heritage Streetcar in Jacksonville
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/BogotaCementTrain-1.jpg)
"Some crazy Gringo wants to ride in the cab."
All mine, wearing somebody elses label. But for me it's not about how many tee shirts I win, rather make the city better - me, you, they, them, us, I don't care! Let's do it.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/2/1589577_a960ce3280_o.jpg)
Sometimes it's very hard to figure out what the problem is.
I've worked in Florida, but never in Jacksonville (except for some recent side work). I haven't bid JTA because frankly I scare the S**T out of most of them. In reality I'm the biggest supporter they have. Internationally, never a problem with work. Thus I've steered clear of professional organizations in the states. But those same professionals, magazines, associations, and clubs can and WILL give credit to the small guy (even one far, far, away).
Pretty much retired now, but would enjoy a few more battles, that's why I jump on here preaching and teaching the gospel of TRANSIT.
Got a question? I'm on OUR team - shine on Jacksonville!OCKLAWAHA
Stjr
When this city was trying to build the skyway Ock was the one telling them they could grid Downtown and connect it to the core neighborhoods with streetcar for less money. He is a wealth of insight and expeirence and possibly the biggest smartass on the site. Stjr, I do say for a new poster you seem to be asking the right questions and making some great points.
Smart Ass? Who Me? Hee Hee! Love it. Thanks for the kind words Jeffery.
Here's a couple more just for you.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRAVEL%20COLOMBIA%20and%20Latin%20America/ColombianTank.jpg)
Tell that Gringo in the Red Car to quit honking, he's starting to piss me off.
(http://www.balancanpresente.com/b2evolution/media/fotos/Febrero_2008/tren1.jpg)
I told Alberto not to piss on the third rail! ...No really this was the result of
bringing a Tennis Ball, as a weapon in a gun fight. Darwin Award?
Smile. Let's build a streetcar system!
OCKLAWAHA
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20STREETCARS%20TROLLEYS/StreetcarJaxAd.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 10, 2009, 12:42:33 AM
QuoteSo, let's limit the role of the consultants. (I say their highest value is to bring us best practices proven elsewhere, not tell us where to necessarily run the "tracks" or which mode is best for our community. After all, we are the ones that will be the lasting consumers of what we build and so should be able to capably judge what works for us.)
Don't agree, at least one Consultant came up with the heritage streetcar idea in 1980. At that time there were NONE - anywhere. Also at that time we still had 5 good streetcars around Jacksonville. So if your Consultant has been leading this from the get-go, has been in the business, created the idea, and grew up in Ortega... Is he still silenced?
OCKLAWAHA
agreed...often the consultants live in the community and care about it too....and even when the main consultant is from out of town, they usually have a local firm as a subconsultant to provide local knowledge.
now stjr...I'm sorry that you are so cynical when it comes to consultants...I might suggest you spend some time working with/for some before criticizing....the fact is consultants offer expertise that is often not found at the local staff level...and studies are often a partnership between the client (agency) and the consultant...with information flowing to/from both.
In the end, both consultants and staff are primarily responsible for providing technical information...elecetd/appointed officials are the ones who make the decisions...so if you're not happy, make your voice heard at public meetings and if need be, vote them out of office!
QuoteI told Alberto not to piss on the third rail!
Funny; As that happens to be my real name.
Keep up the good work!!!
Here is what I would love for with streetcar.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn72/Vendingman/RiversideStreetcarcopy.jpg)
Roosevelt mall to the stadium through a great mix of homes, restaurants, employers shopping entertainment. My own selfish wishes.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/StreetcarbyJeffery2.jpg)
Jeffery, your right on target. I highlighted your ideas in Orange and Mine in Yellow.
Couple of notes:
The only MUST HAVE is the contact with Union Terminal/JTC/Prime Osbourne (what ever they call it today).
We shouldn't use BAY ST to the Stadium as it ruins the opportunity for the Skyway to reach it without big $$ for a new junction. The streetcar could roll up Newnan to the next crossing at Duval or Beaver (on railroad track alone).
We didn't pick Riverside Avenue Viaduct (even though that WAS one of the original streetcar routes and the company barns sat where the Skyway Center is, offices and power plant where the TU is today), due to the freeway ramps, high speeds and long steep grade.
Park Avenue Viaduct (properly called the "LEE STREET VIADUCT" but JTA and COJ failed history 101) has major problems with clearence for the railroad below it. If we grow into a transportation hub for Amtrak or Commuter Rail that bridge is TOAST. We are also not sure - even if we did build on it as a quick fix, would it support the weight?
Myrtle Avenue Subway, also part of the original system - awaits someone to clean out the center and expose the tracks below. This may or may not be the cheap way across, but I'm trying to get the prints for it and will let y'all know what I find.
We think it's very important to catch both Park and King as well as 5-Points.
I agree to run to the Shops of Avondale would be fantastic and you are right, it sets us up for a run to Roosevelt Plaza and a commuter rail connection. I'd stay on the original route "Herschel" south of Ingleside in Avondale, as St. Johns turns into a tight curving mess near Fishweir Creek.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Lucasjj on January 09, 2009, 10:48:26 AM
Without a reliable feeder system into that area, such as commuter rail, this is going to be a lot like the Skyway. A system connecting a few locations that will have limited riders becuase they will have to drive down there to get on it anyway.
Also I feel that this would be ineffiicient and expanding the Skyway would be better suited for the area it is covering. For instance if you were wanting to go to Five Points from San Marco. You would have to take the Skyway over the river and get off just to go to a street car station and take that down to Five Points. For the hassle it would be easier, and quicker to drive. Also I believe it would be more attractive to people if they only had to use one form of transit to get where they are going.
If however the entire route including all the areas that are suggested in the study is implemented, then the Skyway should be removed to avoid duplicating efforts.
I totally agree. I don't like the idea of mixing and matching. Its dumb! Just stay with one vehicle and make it better.
While one could argue the Skyway costs are about the same per miles as the original JTA BRT plan @ 26 Million a mile, streetcars can cost 1/3 as much. The Skyway is not designed for commuter traffic, never was, and there are doubts about it's max. Passenger Per Direction Per Hour capacity. Still as an urban office connector, it's above heavy downtown traffic, and not subject to lights or congestion. Properly built it should ENTER many of the buildings it rolls past.
Streetcars are at grade and can be designed to compliment a community. The LAST THING a neighborhood like old 5-Points, Memorial Park, Park and King, Riverside, Avondale, Fairfax, Ortega, Springfield or San Marco, San Jose need is a Skyway blowing past historic homes and businesses. This is in FACT the thing that stopped it from being pushed further north.
Leaving the Landing and going to most any destination within the inner core I should have no less then 3 modes in at least 4 forms to choose from. Each plying a unique route, that interconnect and form a matrix.
If I'm at Hemming Plaza and need to go to Orange Park, I'll have, commuter rail or BRT at Union Station, I can take the Skyway, or I could catch the streetcar, I like that restaurant by the new courthouse, but the trolley bus is coming down Monroe. Of course I could walk up to Rosa Parks and catch the BRT express and with the exception of a pause at Union Station, We'd soon be on the freeway connector to Edgewood transfer station. CHOICES = WOW. The new streetcar extension meets the commuter rail at the Roosevelt transfer station too. Armed with a laptop, I opt for the trolley bus shuttle and catch the train at Union Station for Orange Park.
This is how it should be done in ANY major city.
A Skyway is not a streetcar
A Streetcar is not a bus
A bus is not BRT
A BRT line is not a train
A train is not a trolley bus
A trolley bus is not a Skyway
Each does a unique job.
Reminds me of a fella that walked into a little place and ordered a hamburger and a coke.
The business owner looked up from the counter and said,"Why I bet you work for the City of Jacksonville!"
The fella was upset by the remark and asked "Why when I come in and order a coke and a burger, what makes you think I'm from the City of Jacksonville? If I ordered pizza would you think I was from Rome?
The counter man said, "I don't know, ain't never happened before."
If I ordered Sausage would you think I was from Poland?
The counter man said, "I don't know, that ain't never happened either."
If I wanted a Taco, would you say I was from Mexico?
Again the man said, "Well I just don't know!"
The customer now shouting, "No! NO! I come in and order a hamburger and a coke, and you tell me that
I'm from the CITY OF JACKSONVILLE - now YOU TELL ME WHY?"
Well the man said quietly, this is a hardware store.
Would you go to a dentist to repair the Accura? How about a shoe store for grocerys? Ace hardware for a worship center?
The difference between a town with some transit routes and one with a TRANSIT SYSTEM is huge and diverse.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 10, 2009, 03:35:41 PM
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/StreetcarbyJeffery2.jpg)
Jeffery, your right on target. I highlighted your ideas in Orange and Mine in Yellow.
Couple of notes:
The only MUST HAVE is the contact with Union Terminal/JTC/Prime Osbourne (what ever they call it today).
We shouldn't use BAY ST to the Stadium as it ruins the opportunity for the Skyway to reach it without big $$ for a new junction. The streetcar could roll up Newnan to the next crossing at Duval or Beaver (on railroad track alone).
We didn't pick Riverside Avenue Viaduct (even though that WAS one of the original streetcar routes and the company barns sat where the Skyway Center is, offices and power plant where the TU is today), due to the freeway ramps, high speeds and long steep grade.
Park Avenue Viaduct (properly called the "LEE STREET VIADUCT" but JTA and COJ failed history 101) has major problems with clearence for the railroad below it. If we grow into a transportation hub for Amtrak or Commuter Rail that bridge is TOAST. We are also not sure - even if we did build on it as a quick fix, would it support the weight?
Myrtle Avenue Subway, also part of the original system - awaits someone to clean out the center and expose the tracks below. This may or may not be the cheap way across, but I'm trying to get the prints for it and will let y'all know what I find.
We think it's very important to catch both Park and King as well as 5-Points.
I agree to run to the Shops of Avondale would be fantastic and you are right, it sets us up for a run to Roosevelt Plaza and a commuter rail connection. I'd stay on the original route "Herschel" south of Ingleside in Avondale, as St. Johns turns into a tight curving mess near Fishweir Creek.
OCKLAWAHA
I love the Park and King extension. I would add St. Vincents to the must haves. I would like the Publix on the list. As you said the skyway to the stadium would be my first choice we would finally have that part for tourists to love. I just worry streetcar is more likely than skyway extension and we should have some transit up and down Bay.
Yeah, their not mutually exclusive - a simple change of command at the the top could get the Skyway moving, some creative thought could get funds for it too. Meanwhile the self financed streetcar could be under construction. Commuter rail and port rail could be rolled into a big federal grant and chased at that level.
The Skyway suffers from a perception that it's a political assassin. I still think the politico that pulls off the home run will be forever honored.
You've made some great observations on the streetcar... Ya know streetcar affactionados are known as "JUICE FANS" or "JUICE JUNKIES". Maybe you qualify? I think for tourism that a ride through the Myrtle Street Subway would be about the coolest experience on a train/tram anywhere in the deep south.
OCKLAWAHA
We took our three year old and the inlaws downtown to chew early this evening rode the skyway from hemming to the Landing just so my little man could ride. The car ride home he was miserable in the carseat the skyway ride he thought he was king of the world I think I know where he gets it.
btw Saturday at 7pm skyway full and problems at the turn styles at Hemming and central I'm not sure we get a good count of how many people use the skyway.
It's funny my Grandson's first, and second ride on the rails have been on streetcars. Little Robert is just 15 months old, but today he was playing with a playschool steam train toy, suddenly out of no where - without any coaching, he starts with "Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Ding... We about fell out of our chairs how a 15 month old can connect a streetcar and a train into the same basic vehicle. Damn! Up until recently JTA, FDOT and COJ haven't been able to catch that concept!
Guess wer're proud of the Lil Juice Junkie. Got to get him a Motormans Cap, wonder if he'll remember them?
OCKLAWAHA
Using the MYRTLE SUBWAY would bring it into the new Transportation Center, and create a setup to take it north along the restored sections of Myrtle which have become vibrant and attractive again, North end of the Extension? How about the "Small" Baseball park - home of the US Negro Leagues. Under study it may turn out to have more passenger connectivity then just a buzz by on Park-Lee. The Skyway and the concourse of Union Terminal are a full block to block and a half WEST of Lee.
OCKLAWAHA
I'd rather see the line run like this.
Red = Streetcar
Blue = Skyway extension
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/ScreenHunter_01Jan121122.jpg)
Park St. (west of St. Vincents) is much more central to the Riverside core and allows access to FCCJ Kent Campus and still hits the major destination points the the St. Johns alignment would hit. Plus it allows for future extensions on into Ortega, Lake Shore/San Juan, Murray Hill, and the King Street corridor.
By connecting the Kent Campus to the system, it will give students a way to transfer from there through Riverside residential areas (housing) to the downtown campus and not have to worry about a car. They also would have access to entertainment and plenty of shopping.
^ Jason I like your route and then a future phase could run edgewood from the shoppes at Avondale to the first block and commuter rail link in Murray hill.
What about Cummer and their aggressive plan to increase square footage and become the second largest museum in the state? The major con of running down Park (just south of I-95) is we would miss one of our most popular urban core tourist destinations by three blocks.
Cummer exhibits lofty plan for growth
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/060405/met_18912509.shtml
Yeah Lake your right Jeff's route is much better. ;D
Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2009, 11:50:30 AM
What about Cummer and their aggressive plan to increase square footage and become the second largest museum in the state? The major con of running down Park (just south of I-95) is we would miss one of our most popular urban core tourist destinations by three blocks.
Then revise the 5-points route to include the Cummer. Maybe use Post to connect to Riverside instead of using Margaret. That would set up a nice extension down Post & College.
I still dont understand why Bay street and the sports comlex are not a priority in these routes.
No one lives on Bay St except Berkman Plaza. The streetcar system can't be built all at one time. Unless some private donor is going to pay for an entire system to built at once. Miami started off doing their streetcar studies and the goal was to keep the system to a phase one, then it kept growing and growing, costs are now over $200 million and it may never get built. We have to keep the size of ours manageable at first. The sports complex, bay st, lavillla, springfield and the rest of riverside/avondale will all follow a succesfful initial segment. We have to keep it realistic!
fsujax makes a good point about Bay Street and keeping initial costs down. The most reasonable way to stretch out the initial phase is picking a single bi-direction route and eliminate the loops (couplets).
Go single with passing sidings instead of 100% double track for phase one. It won't get you everywhere, but it will stretch the dollar more, generate higher ridership and spur more development. In other words, its one of the most important things to do to make sure the initial phase is highly successful.
^ Single with passing sidings sounds like a fantastic idea in theory. It would obviously save tons of money.
However, how exactly would that work with a Streetcar? Don't they tend to share lanes with automobiles? This would make a bi-directional single track impossible (or at least an impossible legal liability). Especially for a Riverside Route, wouldn't you pretty much have to share the ROW with automobiles in some capacity?
Depends. Streetcars can share lanes with automobiles, run in medians or on their own ROW.
An example of a single line bi-directional system: Tacoma Link
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2177-linkmap.bmp)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2173-tacomadome4.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2178-img_50501.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2182-img_33145.jpg)
A single bi-directional route would need to travel on streets that allow this possibility to happen. For example, Water Street has medians and Park is a four lane lightly traveled local street (keep two lanes open, make one parallel parking and the other streetcar). If you can get away with single track in these areas, it allows you to stretch out and double track others. In this scenerio, the double tracked corridors basically become the passing siding sections. The amount of track saved along stretches like this could then be added to the ends of the plans mentioned in the preliminary study. The benefit is you then end up stretching into urban neighborhoods like Springfield or Riverside for the same price range.
Agreed...the loops proposed double the length and, thereby, the cost.
The Tampa line is single track for much of its 3 miles...with occasional double tracking so trains can pass each olther.
Does the Tacoma line have passing areas, that are just not shown on the map?
And Park is only 4 lanes between Post St. (5 Pts) and downtown, the rest is a moderately wide 2-lane street. Might be enough room to put a single line track down the middle, and still leave one lane each way.
QuoteDoes the Tacoma line have passing areas, that are just not shown on the map?
Yes, roughly half of it is double tracked to allow cars to pass each other.
QuoteAnd Park is only 4 lanes between Post St. (5 Pts) and downtown, the rest is a moderately wide 2-lane street.
The JTA alternatives don't show potential streetcar lines south of Five Points. All of their routes also have a huge one way loop in the Five Points area.
QuoteMight be enough room to put a single line track down the middle, and still leave one lane each way.
There's enough ROW on Park Street to run track between the existing road and sidewalks. Unfortunately, doing this would also remove a ton of parking for the small offices in that area. Personally, I'm not sold on running streetcar track down Park, south of Five Points. In my opinion, it would be a pretty expensive option because you would have to deal with a good amount of utility relocation. I prefer Oak, since it was an original streetcar line that's still lined with commercial and multi-family uses between Five Points and Park & King/St. Vincents.
As tufsu1 mentioned, a significant portion of Tampa's TECO line is also single track.
(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/tampa-streetcar-map.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/brt/other_cities/tampa/DCP_9442.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/brt/other_cities/tampa/DCP_9408.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8278-p1170922.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8275-p1170923.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8304-p1170926.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/tampa/streetcar.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2009, 10:30:29 PM
QuoteAnd Park is only 4 lanes between Post St. (5 Pts) and downtown, the rest is a moderately wide 2-lane street.
The JTA alternatives don't show potential streetcar lines south of Five Points. All of their routes also have a huge one way loop in the Five Points area.
QuoteMight be enough room to put a single line track down the middle, and still leave one lane each way.
There's enough ROW on Park Street to run track between the existing road and sidewalks. Unfortunately, doing this would also remove a ton of parking for the small offices in that area. Personally, I'm not sold on running streetcar track down Park, south of Five Points. In my opinion, it would be a pretty expensive option because you would have to deal with a good amount of utility relocation. I prefer Oak, since it was an original streetcar line that's still lined with commercial and multi-family uses between Five Points and Park & King/St. Vincents.
I agree with you about Park and Oak Streets south of 5 Points, but was commenting on one of the routes proposed by another poster here, and just wanted to make clear to folks who might not know the area that Park changes at 5 Points.
Great pix of Teco, too.