QuoteAfter more than a month of negotiations, the Jacksonville Port Authority has failed to reach an agreement with Mayport groups that would pave the way for a cruise ship terminal to be built in the village.
Now, the City Council must decide whether it will vote on the project despite the widespread community opposition or give both sides more time in hopes that an agreement will eventually be reached.
The City Council’s Land Use and Zoning Committee is scheduled to debate the matter Tuesday and the full council is supposed to vote it up or down on Jan. 13.
full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/2009-01-05/deal_with_mayport_community_over_cruise_terminal_falls_apart
What time does the meeting start on Jan. 13?
How much time will be allocated for public input?
What is defined as widespread community opposition? A small group of activists in a metro area of 1.3 million???
I understand that there is opposition from the Mayport community for this dying fishing village.
It seems like there would be a compromise to preserve this as a fishing community that is supplemented by the cruise industry.
The Mayport community had opposed a lot of things. I guess they hate the traffic. With all due respect, but we need good opportunities for Jacksonville to take advantage off. If the idea for Mayport fails, and I hope it doesn't, there's always Tallyrand, or the old Shipyard downtown!
No, jeh, if the Mayport option falls through, we will likely be out of the cruise business (the current cruise terminal, west of the DPBridge, will soon become the Hanjin port). One of the reasons for moving to Mayport is to get east of the JEA lines that cross the river from Blount Island to Arlington, and the Dames Point Bridge. Both limit the size of cruise ships going west (like to Talleyrand or downtown). According to JaxPort, the major cruise lines aren't building ships that fit any more.
Now, whether we are "in the cruise business" is a good thing or not is open for discussion. As is what JaxPort is proposing for Mayport Village is good or not.
If the linked report is correct, I do not know why JaxPort would reject providing shore power for the ships. I have heard them say that not all ships have the capability. But they are basing the move on newer (bigger) ships - so it seems reasonable that newer ships would be equipped to "plug in" to the dock for electricity.
QuoteAccording to JaxPort, the major cruise lines aren't building ships that fit any more.
I wonder if there is a future in going after cruise ship lines that specialize in catering to niche markets with smaller ships? If it is, the Dames Point would no longer be an issue.
Jacksonville already serves as a port of call for many smaller niche cruise ships....almost monthly, there is one docked on the river down by the Hyatt and The Landing.
The fact is that as cruise ships get bigger, Tampa's port is also a problem in that only some ships can fit under the Sunshine Skyway....with the relocation of JaxPort's cruise terminal, perhaps we could get some of their market.
Of course, right now there is only enough room at Mayport for one terminal....Tamps has three separate terminals and can have 3 ships in port at any one time (happens often on Saturdays from Jan - March).
I'm still very confused as to why the city needs to reach agreement with any Mayport groups. There's no Em Domain involved is there? From what I understand, this is a simple re-zoning to allow a more intense use on land the city already owns (or will purchase in a willing transaction).
A re-zoning should be valid as long as there isn't a negative impact.
- It won't have a negative impact on property values. It will clearly increase them.
- It won't have an unacceptable traffic impact. There's absolutely no way the cruise terminal could create more traffic than even a one-lane road is designed to handle.
- Being "out of character" is irrelevant since the neighborhood is not an historic district. And even then, being out of character would only restrict the form or design of the property, not whether it could exist at all.
So what's the problem here? I'm assuming the city can just go ahead and do it without fear of lawsuit.
The only statement I would contest Joe is there would be no more traffic. There would in fact be an increase of traffic at the time leading up to departure as well as the exodus of cars after the ships arrives home. About a stadium full of people leaving Mayport all at one time should congest things a bit. Although, if handled properly, there could be a great benefit to the local buisnesses feeding off of the additional people.
Other than that, Mayport should be fully embracing this terminal, IMO.
Right, there would be more traffic by default. But traffic congestion is not a legally valid reason for denying a project. You can only deny a project if the extra traffic would put the road over capacity. At least this is how I understand it.
What I'm saying is that it's almost impossible for the cruise terminal to do that. I'm a little rusty on my traffic capacity numbers, but even the smallest of roads can handle thousands of cars per day. Right now they have almost none.
I agree. The existing roadway would likely handle the peak traffic with only a few upgrades (turn lanes and the likes).
It depends on if the city measures traffic capacity over a 24 hour day, or at the peak demand time. Spread over 24 hours, the traffic from a cruise ship would be no problem. In the hour or so after the cruise ship docks, it could be a very different story.
After some Googling about the boat that comes here
The Carnival Fascination carries slightly over 2000 passengers. If they each have a car, it would cause problems on Mayport Road, at least until it gets to Wonderwood.
As bigger ships come here (the reason for moving to Mayport), the problem will get worse. And except for the turn lanes within the Village mentioned above, expansion of Mayport Road, thru the wetlands seems unlikely. It will be a problem, but not insurmountable.
Not many people take a cruise by themself. Most of the time it is families who are packed in cars or minivans. So a couple of hundred vehicles is going to be a deal breaker not to build a permanent terminal???
Here is my question about this, and I've yet to see an answer to this:
Jacksonville is not positioned all that well for cruises, as compared to Canaveral, Ft Lauderdale, Tampa or Miami, simply because it is an additional day on either end to any port. My feeling is that we are better positioned for longer, more expensive cruises. There are a lot less people that can do this. Doesn't that mean that smaller vessels would serve this market? If this is the case, why don't we put the thing downtown on the riverfront, since bridges would no longer be an issue. There are certainly a few candidates for this, such as the Ford Factory, the shipyards property (since condos aren't going there anytime soon anyway), and the industrial area near the stadium to name a few.
Thoughts?
I think part of the problem with basing cruises at or near downtown is distance from the ocean. It is a rather lengthy and slow trip up and down the river. Operations like that want quick access to open ocean.
I continue to support the Mayport residents wishes to keep it the stink hole that it is. If that is what they want then hey maybe I'll toss another rusty old appliance on someones lawn and keep up the tradition and ambiance they work so hard to preserve.
Quote from: alta on January 06, 2009, 12:47:29 AM
I understand that there is opposition from the Mayport community for this dying fishing village.
Does there really need to be any further discussion on this? Let the thing die and put the area to better use. We're never going to make any progress as a city or a regional destination if we let a few crying delinquents prevent positive growth.
Lake, I can definitely see the wisdom in persuing a more niche market with the smaller ships. But why can't we enjoy both as an option? A big ship or two at Mayport and then a couple smaller high-end ships downtown?
Jacksonville is much closer to Caribbean destinations than other ports further north. Yeah, we likely will never fully compete with South Florida but we can easily compete with the other guys above us. A downtown terminal is a fantastic idea and could benefit the core immensely.
CRUISE FROM JACKSONVILLE:
U.K. - Bermuda - Hamilton Wed 2:32 PM 1622 km 1008 miles 876 nm EbN
Jamaica - Kingston Wed 1:32 PM 1456 km 905 miles 786 nm SSE
U.S.A. - New York - New York Wed 1:32 PM 1350 km 839 miles 729 nm NEbN
Bahamas - Nassau Wed 1:32 PM 725 km 450 miles 391 nm SEbS
U.S.A. - South Carolina - Charleston Wed 1:32 PM 318 km 197 miles 171 nm NEbN
U.S.A. - Georgia - Savannah Wed 1:32 PM 211 km 131 miles 114 nm NbE
UK - London - Distance is 6874 kilometers or 4271 miles or 3712 nautical miles
Spain - Santa Cruz - Canary Islando - Distance is 6263 kilometers or 3891 miles or 3382 nautical miles
CRUISE FROM MIAMI
U.K. - Bermuda - Hamilton Wed 2:55 PM 1666 km 1035 miles 900 nm NEbE
Jamaica - Kingston Wed 1:55 PM 935 km 581 miles 505 nm SSE
U.S.A. - New York - New York Wed 1:55 PM 1758 km 1092 miles 949 nm NNE
Bahamas - Nassau Wed 1:55 PM 301 km 187 miles 163 nm EbS
U.S.A. - South Carolina - Charleston Wed 1:55 PM 778 km 483 miles 420 nm N
U.S.A. - Georgia - Savannah Wed 1:55 PM 710 km 441 miles 383 nm NbW
UK - London - Distance is 7140 kilometers or 4437 miles or 3855 nautical miles
Spain - Santa Cruz - Canary Islands - Distance is 6274 kilometers or 3899 miles or 3388 nautical miles
With the exception of Jamaica, all of the above are popular non-Caribbean destinations. Consider that Miami and Bahamas locations are close enough that over-night cruises are pretty much out of the question, but by the time you reach Nassau, Jacksonville nearly pulls even.
Who says we can't compete for the big ships?
OCKLAWAHA
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/01/12/daily52.html
Gee, don't you think they'd think of that before they committed so much financial and political capital?
The Jacksonville Port Authority board today decided to withdraw its request for City Council to support building a cruise terminal in Mayport Village.
http://www.jacksonville.com/business/2009-03-02/story/jaxport_board_pulls_back_from_mayport_cruise_terminal
After first hearing about this I was pissed. Another lost opportunity for Jacksonville. But after some serious deliberation I am now on board with a downtown terminal. Let Mayport have there crusty little fishing village. When a mid sized terminal is located downtown and it brings all that come with it, the villagers will be in awe because the Govt isn't going to give fishing villages any stimulus money. Good luck in the future Mayporters, you just passed on a golden opportunity. Lets get this thing downtown.
A downtown terminal will be limited in size to the American Cruise Line type ship that currently stop at the Hyatt, and cruise the Intercoastal up to Savannah or Charleston. Ships much bigger won't be able to get under the Mathews or Hart bridges (maybe 150'?). If that's the niche we want, fine, but with ocean cruisers getting too big for the JEA power lines and Dames Pt. bridge at 175', we are out of the ocean cruise business soon.
With JaxPort dropping efforts to move the cruise terminal to Mayport, what does this mean for Hanjin? One of the reasons to move to Mayport was JaxPort sold (gave?) the land where the cruise terminal is now to Hanjin. The cruise terminal had to move soon to give them time to build the Hanjin container terminal. Does this mean Hanjin will be delayed? Or do we just get out of the cruise business when it is time to build their port?
The port is not out. When Hanjin is ready to use the current cruise ship land Jax port will build the new terminal. Meanwhile all the organization of the "resistance" will be gone and have to be reconstructed quickly and because all the while the land use will be up in the air property values will fall faster than even the current climate. No one will invest in any business or improvements to the area because of uncertainty of what the port will do. So Mayport is screwed and even though I think the residents should have embraced the cruise terminal. I feel sad that they will now suffer even more for trying to promote their own vision of their neighborhood.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 02, 2009, 09:42:01 PM
If that's the niche we want, fine, but with ocean cruisers getting too big for the JEA power lines and Dames Pt. bridge at 175', we are out of the ocean cruise business soon.
Can't we do both? Is that asking too much? Niche cruises from downtown, and a viable full-size cruise port out east?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 02, 2009, 09:42:01 PM
With JaxPort dropping efforts to move the cruise terminal to Mayport, what does this mean for Hanjin? One of the reasons to move to Mayport was JaxPort sold (gave?) the land where the cruise terminal is now to Hanjin. The cruise terminal had to move soon to give them time to build the Hanjin container terminal. Does this mean Hanjin will be delayed? Or do we just get out of the cruise business when it is time to build their port?
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/03/02/daily7.html
Quote
He said the existing cruise terminal can continue operating for two to three years until the construction of Hanjin Shipping Co. Ltd’s container terminal begins. Mason said the authority will determine within that “window†whether the cruise industry will hold up in the recession and still want to call on Jacksonville.
OK, thanks, I had not seen the Business Journal, and the TV news did not include that, just interviewing former TV reporter Nancy Rubin. What is the lead time needed to build a cruise terminal at Mayport? For example, if they want to start building Hanjin on (totally random date) Jan. 1, 2011; when would they have to start building the Mayport terminal to be out of the way in time?
Another reason why large cruises do not want to begin and end downtown (Aside from the bridge height) is the time and distance to the open ocean. Large cruise ships do not want to spend two hours each way navigating the river contending with tides and currents to dock downtown. They want quick and easy access to the ocean so they can cruise at an efficient speed and open their casinos.