Touring the Northside: BRT North Corridor Photo Tour
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8394-p1180389.JPG)
After years of protest by Metro Jacksonville, urban advocates, and concerned citizens, JTA has decided to alter their bus rapid transit plan. Today, Metro Jacksonville provides the public with a photo tour JTA's proposed BRT corridor and the surrounding environment.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/972
I wish we would stop calling this plan of JTA's a BRT. It is not a BRT. BRT's run in lanes physically separated from any other lanes of traffic. Those BRT lanes and stops look more like a something a train would run on than a lane of traffic. These Separated lanes are not affected by other traffic, be it crossing paths or delayed by accidents that block the BRT lane.
The house in the last picture is the home of a good friend of mine and knowing how much time, effort and money he has put into restoring his home. I would hate see what would happen to the value of his home should JTA start run their Express Buses down Pearl.
There is not one single example of a BRT anywhere in the world creating a positive impact on the surrounding land it travels through. A BRT here is a complete waste of time, money and resources and will only leave Jacksonville another 20 years behind the rest of country when it comes to mass transit.
Amen! BRT does not run thorugh an already busy two lane residential area. What a JOKE! If the BLVD route is bad, Pearl is a Nightmare. IS the city intent on destroying our neighborhood? It appears they would like to drive down our housing value but continuing raising our taxes? Perhaps they want crack alley back????!!!!!
This article has been posted in another thread...but it clearly explains what is and is not BRT
http://www.planetizen.com/node/36406 (http://www.planetizen.com/node/36406)
Thank you for putting this photo tour up. It really helps me to visualize where the BRT is planned.
I can see that making a straight shot is what is most important, but I can't help but think that this will seriously hurt any residential development around it. Specifically in Springfield. I think avoiding residential should most important. Keep it on Main/8th at all cost. And I would say kill it if possible. There has to be a better solution to connecting the Northside with Downtown. This City is so backwards and short sighted sometimes. We should be demanding better.
QuoteThe house in the last picture is the home of a good friend of mine and knowing how much time, effort and money he has put into restoring his home. I would hate see what would happen to the value of his home should JTA start run their Express Buses down Pearl.
Wasn't the home in the last photo was on the tour of homes? If so, tell your friend it was my favorite and it is indeed very nicely restored.
This has nice potential for enhancing the Skyway. I still prefer rail but this looks like a route that overall could use mass transit.
Regarding the part about running this 'BRT' up Main St:
Could it not start at Rosa Parks Station, jog down Union, turn north onto Main, then snake back over to 8th to take advantage of having the Shands complex as a route stop?
Or is that too 'snakey' of a route, and defeat the whole purpose? Just a thought.
This route is not a replacement for rail. Its to move existing buses through the Northside at a quicker pace. Even with a rail system, some bus enhancement in this form will still be needed.
Regarding Boulevard Street through Springfield, I'd urge everyone to consider the neighborhoods around Springfield as well. The negative impact on Brentwood would be greater than that in Springfield's residential sections.
Imo, decent bus service in a city the size of Jacksonville is needed and it should not come in the form of dedicated busways (previous plan). However, its better to keep express buses on commercial streets even if the route ends up 'snakey'.
I also agree its time to call it what it is. This is not a BRT system. As indicated by tufsu1's link, its
Rapid (Express) Bus.
QuoteThe Rapid Bus
The remaining systems really are not really BRT at all. They are instead repackaged express buses. These lines run in traffic along regular bus lines but have limited stops and some of the special features of BRT including ITS, stations, low/floor level boarding, branded vehicles, and off vehicle ticket vending. Examples include the San Pablo Rapid Bus in Oakland, California and the Metro Rapid Bus system in Los Angeles. Both run on the street with regular buses that have red “Rapid†badges. Costs for these systems only include new buses, station canopies, and necessary technological changes such as GPS for real time arrival and signal pre-emption.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 02, 2009, 08:54:40 AM
This route is not a replacement for rail. Its to move existing buses through the Northside at a quicker pace. Even with a rail system, some bus enhancement in this form will still be needed.
Lake, I totally agree that buses are needed and I'm not against a BRT system. I'm just against the JTA's system plan. We need buses. We also need trains, street cars, the skyway, and bikeways and we need them to all work together. What we need is a transportation master plan that has what runs where, when and how each integrates with the other.
Other wise we end up bits and pieces of transport that doesn't go anywhere or work with other types of transit. (Cough: Skyway)
I definately agree. I don't think one penny should be invested on anything without an integrated master plan.
Main St already has bus, and will have trolley. This route should be on Jefferson where it disturbs no residential or commercial in historic Springfield, and does not separate the community's residents from the historic park system.
With out a doubt, a bus corridor connecting several northside neighborhoods is better suited for commercial strips (it can actually help these) than residential districts. How often does the bus run down Main? Is it really a negative if the existing bus service became more reliable (a bus every 10 minutes) running down Main, as opposed to Boulevard?
The problem with Jefferson is it dead ends into the Shands complex. A run down Jefferson and shift over to Boulevard to continue north, still puts it in the middle of dense residential neighborhoods (New Springfield / Brentwood). Whatever path is chosen should not put one neighborhood's fortunes or success at the downfall of another.
Jefferson meets 10th at a curved intersection in front of the UF Proton Therapy Institute (the BRT wouldn't even have to stop), so it could easily jog back onto Boulevard. Or better, yet, jog west onto Davis.
QuoteWith out a doubt, a bus corridor connecting several northside neighborhoods is better suited for commercial strips
I disagree completely. The doubt factor is that part of the "commercial strip" goes through a National Historic District. More buses on Main would negatively impact the historic character of the community in the same way an increased bus load on Riverside Avenue (instead of the more historically-appropriate potato-chip buses, a.k.a. "trolleys") would.
As much of the historic district character that can be replaced or salvaged should be. Optimally, all buses (not the faux trolley variety) should be shifted out of the historic district, and shorter-line connectors that are sensitive to the history of the area should replace the sections of the routes within the main historic district area.
If the "BRT" were shifted to Jefferson, with a major stop at Jefferson & 8th, Shands complex is served, and connectivity through the historic district could be achieved with a trolley route that goes on 8th to Main (close enough to Rosa Parks to make major connections there), then all the way to Bay St. via Main, and the Landing via Laura. Then you've got historically sensitive connectivity throughout Jacksonville's historic core (even to Riverside/Avondale).
I don't want to see more buses in Springfield's historic district. There are at least 4 routes that operate on Main now, and they are a loud, belching hindrance to a pedestrian-friendly commercial corridor.
When will the BRT be running in the middle of say Cherry St? Or how about along the lake front in San Marco? And what in the heck do all these people up north need to get downtown to do? OK, build a route to get people downtown (killing residential and commercial areas along the way). Once in our deadsville downtown they can go to Hemming Plaza and feed the homeless. Does the city just want everyone gettign to the downtown hub? And let's be honest the areas this is servicing are not your big spenders, so it isn;t as if this will bring more commerce to anyone. What a joke, another example of our idiotic city planning... oh wait, it will get people to the new courthouse if it is ever built and so quickly they won;t miss their trials, or to Shands emergency room for their childs cold or ear ache....silly me
Utg I disagree I think it is a good route for transit over all. None of the lines will be perfect for transit at first as we expect development along transit lines. Since we have no mass transit no one has organized their life in order to take advantage of it. Employers will move or open so employees and customers can use transit to reach them. Employees and shoppers will value property with access to transit. Now if any kind of bus will spur that I am still skeptical.
utg is just mad that the route comes through Springfield...tha fact is, the only Sprinfield street that isn't primarily residential is Main St.
but the reality is all we're talking about is more frequent bus service...even the San Marco folks living on San Jose would probably favor that!
Quote from: zoo on January 02, 2009, 03:55:02 PM
Jefferson meets 10th at a curved intersection in front of the UF Proton Therapy Institute (the BRT wouldn't even have to stop), so it could easily jog back onto Boulevard. Or better, yet, jog west onto Davis.
1. Boulevard north of Shands is more residential than it is in Springfield.
2. Davis is more residential north of 8th as well.
3. Davis does not go north of MLK Parkway.
Because of these factors, a Jefferson/Davis path does not solve the issue of additional bus traffic on narrow residential streets (I'm thinking about more than just Springfield on this issue).
QuoteQuoteWith out a doubt, a bus corridor connecting several northside neighborhoods is better suited for commercial strips
I disagree completely. The doubt factor is that part of the "commercial strip" goes through a National Historic District. More buses on Main would negatively impact the historic character of the community in the same way an increased bus load on Riverside Avenue (instead of the more historically-appropriate potato-chip buses, a.k.a. "trolleys") would.
As much of the historic district character that can be replaced or salvaged should be. Optimally, all buses (not the faux trolley variety) should be shifted out of the historic district, and shorter-line connectors that are sensitive to the history of the area should replace the sections of the routes within the main historic district area.
Definately disagree on these points. It would be a negative for the historic district to attempt to separate itself from the surrounding neighborhoods, via street closings or by limiting reliable bus service. Springfield does not have the demographics to be its own vibrant island. Main Street businesses are being exposed to every rider who travels along that corridor. An attractive stop at 8th & Main would increase pedestrian traffic/customer base for adjacent retailers. Its also bad business to plan any type of transit system that does not connect with commercial destinations. A service that avoids everything is one that will also struggle to attract decent ridership. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
QuoteIf the "BRT" were shifted to Jefferson, with a major stop at Jefferson & 8th, Shands complex is served, and connectivity through the historic district could be achieved with a trolley route that goes on 8th to Main (close enough to Rosa Parks to make major connections there), then all the way to Bay St. via Main, and the Landing via Laura. Then you've got historically sensitive connectivity throughout Jacksonville's historic core (even to Riverside/Avondale).
A shift to Jefferson does nothing for the residential distict along Boulevard, north of Shands and the railroad tracks. Its important to acknowledge that the Rapid Bus plan does not revolve around the historic district. Springfield is one of many Northside neighborhoods that the corridor will be set up to provide reliable service to. To create a viable integrated transportation system, we have to plan from a higher viewpoint.
QuoteI don't want to see more buses in Springfield's historic district. There are at least 4 routes that operate on Main now, and they are a loud, belching hindrance to a pedestrian-friendly commercial corridor.
Ideally, the purpose of BRT, Rapid bus or whatever, is to consolidate the duplication of multiple routes, in an attractive fashion. My hope would be that, if it ended up on Main, the corridor would have less routes with better frequencies.
Springfield is the only neighborhood with houses worth more than 50K, and with the lowest crime rate amongst them all.
Tufsu are you smoking crack again? If San Marco, Riverside, and Avondale would love BRT then sell it to them...I do not think you will get the support of the neighborhoods here but that won;t stop the city from doing it anyway.
I do not have as much issue with Blvd or Main, and both of those streets make more sense, but Pearl is mostly residential (with the exception of a few blocks north of 12th). Why not put the route on the other side of 95 and loop down one of the main streets DT?
I also do not see any company relocating (or just locating for that matter) on this proposed bus route. I would not see that even before this economy, but certainly not after. The people this route would be servicing are not office worker downtown. It is another example of stupid. An BRT route to Regency would make more sense for these potential customers...hey how about we fill up one of the exisitng buses on this route before we add twenty more?
You will be hard pressed to find supporters of this in any of the neighborhoods from 1st st. up. BUILD A LIGHT RAIL for God's Sake!
so UTG....you don't think buses belong on the streets of Springfield....but a light rail or trolley line running on the street would be fine?
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 03, 2009, 07:26:24 AM
I do not have as much issue with Blvd or Main, and both of those streets make more sense, but Pearl is mostly residential (with the exception of a few blocks north of 12th). Why not put the route on the other side of 95 and loop down one of the main streets DT?
I'm still confused as to why anyone would not want dependable bus service in Springfield. After all, it is an urban neighborhood. As for the mention of Pearl as an alternative corridor, it works better for Brentwood/New Springfield, while something like Jefferson would work better for Springfield. A compromise could be to run down Pearl (north of 12th) and switch over to Boulevard/Jefferson somewhere between the railroad tracks and 12th Street. Imo, outside of not directly hitting Shands, Main makes the most sense for good bus service (I'm no longer calling this line BRT because it does not meet the definition).
QuoteI also do not see any company relocating (or just locating for that matter) on this proposed bus route. I would not see that even before this economy, but certainly not after. The people this route would be servicing are not office worker downtown.
I can't imagine a large company locating on Main because JTA enhancing their bus service, but I could see business increasing at places near stops like Carl's, Shantytown, Chan's, The Pearl, etc. The successful the existing businesses are, the better chance the community will have to attract more. At the end of the day, that's what everyone should want for a struggling commercial district.
As for attracting a diverse range of riders, if service were dependable and clean, it would be hard to prove that ridership levels would not increase.
QuoteIt is another example of stupid. An BRT route to Regency would make more sense for these potential customers...hey how about we fill up one of the exisitng buses on this route before we add twenty more?
Better bus service is needed to Regency as well. Hopefully the elimination of multiple routes down the same corridor will result in higher ridership on the typical bus all across town.
QuoteYou will be hard pressed to find supporters of this in any of the neighborhoods from 1st st. up. BUILD A LIGHT RAIL for God's Sake!
Light rail serves a different market than the typical bus. They have to work together to successful. Rail will fail if it does not have reliable bus service to feed riders into rail corridors. In the end, JTA is never going to build local support around the their bus plans without making the rail spine their main priority. It will be an easier sell to repackage what ever their master plan is as rail (first) with enhanced express bus feeder lines complementing it. If I were JTA, I'd just pick a route, consolidate a few lines and start running regular buses, at decent frequencies, down the chosen corridor. By doing this, it would free up the BJP money to help implement rail sooner rather than later (assuming Peyton does not take it).
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 03, 2009, 09:05:46 AM
so UTG....you don't think buses belong on the streets of Springfield....but a light rail or trolley line running on the street would be fine?
I would agree with that with some caveats.
Buses do not belong on residential streets. The first two years we lived on Laura St, Main St buses were re-routed up Laura. They shake the entire house, the seem like they are moving a million miles an hour (im sure they were doing the speed limit, but 30 mph in a bus seems much faster). In general they drop the quality of life for those unfortunate enough to have frontage with a bus line.
buses are fine for what they are. Street cars are a different animal. It may only be a romantic difference, but if you went and asked all the folks in San Fran "Hey, we are going to replace your trolleys with buses. The service will be exactly the same, same stations, same times, same service... What do you think the response would be?
I guess a similar comparison would be road materials. Streets in this neighborhood are really bumpy and crappy. However, I think many people in SPR would love to see brick roads put back. Still bumpy, but a romantic quality, and an asset to the neighborhood.
Does San Fran not have a bus system? Or do they have a truly integrated transit system? It should not be either or. Both are needed and they should be set up to complement each other. I think the struggle locally comes by not having a developed master transit plan before pushing things like this through. JTA needs to sell the community on an overall vision and set up to implement it appropriately. At this point, that's not happening.
Oh, certainly it does. And nobody is suggesting that busses be shut down, even in Springfield. They just cant compare to a street car line.
No, they can't. Any type of rail based mass transit option will appeal to the masses more than buses. I definitely agree.
I also agree that running buses every 10 minutes down single family residential dominated streets would be a disaster.
Has JTA said what the frequency/headways of the bus system would be?
San Fran has a fully integrated system, including buses, trolleys, cable cars, and subways...now one of the things that makes San Fran (and Seattle) a bit different is that many/most of the buses are either trackless trolleys (overhead electric lines) or natural gas....the result is a much cleaner and quieter than traditional buses.
Getting overhead electric lines approved in the NIMBY world we live in now is very difficult, but maybe JTA can explore natural gas buses.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 03, 2009, 01:43:55 PM
now one of the things that makes San Fran (and Seattle) a bit different is
...is that that you can set your watch by their buses which cover the entire city unlike JTA. And which also arrive at any and all stops every 15 minutes unlike the every hour (a few 1/2 hour peak time stops) stop times of JTA.
I think that is one of the biggest red flags for this whole BRT plan for me. JTA can't operate a normal bus service in a timely and efficient manner. How the hell do they expect me to believe they can operate a BRT?
Quotethelakelander
Re: Touring the Northside: BRT North Corridor Photo Tour
Does San Fran not have a bus system? Or do they have a truly integrated transit system? It should not be either or. Both are needed and they should be set up to complement each other. I think the struggle locally comes by not having a developed master transit plan before pushing things like this through. JTA needs to sell the community on an overall vision and set up to implement it appropriately. At this point, that's not happening.
Quotedowntownparks
January 3, 2009, 11:21 am
Re: Touring the Northside: BRT North Corridor Photo Tour
Oh, certainly it does. And nobody is suggesting that busses be shut down, even in Springfield. They just cant compare to a street car line.
Quotethelakelander
January 3, 2009, 11:24 am
Re: Touring the Northside: BRT North Corridor Photo Tour
No, they can't. Any type of rail based mass transit option will appeal to the masses more than buses. I definitely agree.
That sums it up. Integrated is what's needed here, not just more of an option that already exists (no more bus traffic on Main, Pearl, 8th, 7th, 1st or any other streets in the Historic District, please). Lake, if, with metrojacksonville.com's support (which might be presumed based on your posts), JTA gets increased busing on Main, how urgently do you think it will consider a historically-appropriate trolley or a streetcar, both options that would bring riders to the Main/8th St corridors at a commercially viable level? The answer to that is probably never, "because we're already serving northsiders with our lovely non-walkable-friendly BRT system." I'll take no additional transit ruining the character of Springfield's residential OR commercial areas before I'll take either the Boulevard or Main St. options.
You are correct that the Springfield Historic District alone cannot support retail. But the district, plus Shands, UF, VA, State and County boards of Health, Bethel Baptist, Downtown, and the connectivity with the Riverside/Avondale trolley and a future San Marco trolley, can. Not that I'm suggesting keeping anyone else interested in dining or purchasing in Springfield from doing so - anyone that wants to spend money here (legally) can, but they can just as easily come on a connecting, and yes, integrated, trolley or streetcar route that uses Main and 8th.
I also don't want to be separated from what will someday be a terrific park system. The park system is included within the boundaries of the Historic District. Boulevard as an option shouldn't even be discussed, let alone been included in a second, ill-thought-out, tentative plan. Crossing Boulevard at the blind curve at 5th is already a deadly proposition. Would you send your 7-year-old across Boulevard on his bicycle if the bus load were increased by 8 double-sized buses/hour?!?! You have already said in many posts that State/Union are a major barrier to Springfield/Downtown connectivity. Well, BRT on Boulevard is a major barrier to Historic District/Park connectivity - this should not happen.
If we take that connectivity argument of yours further, the west side of the District and the east side of the district, nor the south and north sides, should not be MORE separated than they already are by the non-pedestrian-friendly medians and existing bus traffic, by increasing bus traffic on Main or 8th.
If you don't want to run the route through the neighborhoods north of Shands/UF, fine. Perhaps the route should go partially back to the original proposal of using 95? So from the transit center, it would use Boulevard (to State or 1st), Jefferson to 8th, 95, then off at Golfair/Brentwood/Lem Turner (however it would make sense up there) on the North end.
QuoteBike Jax
January 2, 2009, 5:10 am
Re: Touring the Northside: BRT North Corridor Photo Tour
I wish we would stop calling this plan of JTA's a BRT. It is not a BRT. BRT's run in lanes physically separated from any other lanes of traffic. Those BRT lanes and stops look more like a something a train would run on than a lane of traffic. These Separated lanes are not affected by other traffic, be it crossing paths or delayed by accidents that block the BRT lane.
Sorry but this is incorrect. BRT is more of a "Cafe" of bus toys then a defined system. Many true BRT lines operate in HOV lanes, reserved lanes, some mix it up with traffic, while others do have the track structure that you describe.
BRT is a combination of several features:
REAL TIME information
Close headways
Limited Stops
Que Jumping
Signal Control
Pre-paid entry
enhanced stations
HOV lanes
Private lanes
high capacity vehicles
Any system today that buys into BRT makes it's own choices on how deep they want to spend. Thus the newer terms BRT-QUICKWAY (a totally independent roadway) or BRT-Light-Rail-Lite (which sort of says we wish we had Light Rail but all we could build was this cheap "Lite" copy).
BEFORE BRT comes to JACKSONVILLE:
JTA NEEDS TO:
Start running the core lines LIKE-BRT
Increase headways from hourly to half hour to 15 minutes
Take out all fare collection onboard the vehicles
Offer free route transfers (wouldn't it be cool IF they knew which routes connected the most with others?)
Start offering limited stops on some of the express services they now have. For example a beach flyer roars down JTB and blows right past San Pablo (Mayo), Hodges (commercial-residential), Kernan UNF... etc... These need to be railroad like side of the road pull-out stops.
If the passengers are not taught how to use a decent service, then when one is suddenly sprung on them, they won't respond. Passengers need to be introduced to these concepts BEFORE we dump a few million dollars.
Also, I too have toured the line, PEARL makes MUCH more sense on the North End. Maybe a route from Rosa Parks/FCCJ - Up Main - 8Th - Shands on BLVD - jog back to Pearl for the run north to Gateway. This is why a busway alongside the "S" line and running from Moncrief Road to Main Street would make so much damn sense. OCKLAWAHA
Et tu Brutae? If this bus line gets executed on Main/8th, you can kiss any future streetcar goodbye.
A streetcar line down Main is a pipe dream at this point. However, in the event that one does come in a decade or so, buses could easily be rerouted. However, unless the streetcar line is going to go all the way to I-295 (which would not be financially feasible) we would probably end up with both along the same corridor.
Quote from: 9a is my backyard on January 03, 2009, 12:53:35 PM
Has JTA said what the frequency/headways of the bus system would be?
An express bus, making what amounts to one centralized stop per neighborhood, every 10 minutes.
Quote from: zoo on January 03, 2009, 04:01:18 PM
That sums it up. Integrated is what's needed here, not just more of an option that already exists (no more bus traffic on Main, Pearl, 8th, 7th, 1st or any other streets in the Historic District, please). Lake, if, with metrojacksonville.com's support (which might be presumed based on your posts), JTA gets increased busing on Main, how urgently do you think it will consider a historically-appropriate trolley or a streetcar, both options that would bring riders to the Main/8th St corridors at a commercially viable level? The answer to that is probably never, "because we're already serving northsiders with our lovely non-walkable-friendly BRT system."
They are different animals that aren't in competition with each other. The bus would run through the Northside, up to Lem Turner & I-295 (areas where rail would not stretch out to). The north commuter rail line would run from DT to the airport or possibly Fernandina Beach. A streetcar line would probably terminate at the S-Line. All three would complement each other.
QuoteI also don't want to be separated from what will someday be a terrific park system. The park system is included within the boundaries of the Historic District. Boulevard as an option shouldn't even be discussed, let alone been included in a second, ill-thought-out, tentative plan. Crossing Boulevard at the blind curve at 5th is already a deadly proposition. Would you send your 7-year-old across Boulevard on his bicycle if the bus load were increased by 8 double-sized buses/hour?!?!
No. I'm against having a major bus corridor run down residential streets. I'd prefer them to run along commercial corridors like they do in most major cities.
QuoteYou have already said in many posts that State/Union are a major barrier to Springfield/Downtown connectivity. Well, BRT on Boulevard is a major barrier to Historic District/Park connectivity - this should not happen.
A bus every 10 minutes and 70,000 cars a day (State & Union) are two different issues. However, I don't view State & Union's traffic count as the barrier. Most major cities have streets just like State & Union that carry more traffic, yet pedestrians still have no problem crossing the streets. For a retail deprived core, State & Union's traffic counts are an asset with the right marketing strategy. The true barrier is the non-pedestrian friendly buildings, walls and parking lots that dot the area.
QuoteIf we take that connectivity argument of yours further, the west side of the District and the east side of the district, nor the south and north sides, should not be MORE separated than they already are by the non-pedestrian-friendly medians and existing bus traffic, by increasing bus traffic on Main or 8th.
Simply put, I just don't view a bus running every 10 minutes along a commercial corridor as a negative or a barrier. I'd prefer them there as opposed to running through a residential zone.
QuoteIf you don't want to run the route through the neighborhoods north of Shands/UF, fine. Perhaps the route should go partially back to the original proposal of using 95? So from the transit center, it would use Boulevard (to State or 1st), Jefferson to 8th, 95, then off at Golfair/Brentwood/Lem Turner (however it would make sense up there) on the North end.
That would not make sense because no one lives or works along I-95. It would eliminate New Springfield and Brentwood (two transit dependent areas) from having direct express bus access. On the other hand, Main is a commercial spine that is within walking distance for most residents in Springfield, New Springfield and Brentwood. A line down I-95 would also be super expensive. That option would really kill/delay people's dreams of JTA coming up with enough money to put a streetcar down Main in Springfield.
Quote from: stephendare on January 03, 2009, 05:18:20 PM
Im still unclear as to whether or not the above described corridor actually connects with the S Line.
It could potentially connect to the S-Line on the north end of Shands. If shifted to Main, the connection would be the Springfield Warehouse District.
Quote from: stephendare on January 03, 2009, 06:26:21 PM
Ock, didnt you say that trolleys could be run in lanes of traffic?
I'm not Ock, but this picture I snapped in Toronto last year should answer your question.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1298-p1010460.JPG)
The big question with Main Street and streetcars revolves around FDOT. Will they allow streetcars to added to Main (especially after the investment being made right now)? Its been difficult to get them to provide median cuts on Main Street. They also quickly dismissed at Peyton's Big Idea plan to use a lane on the Main Street Bridge for a wider sidewalk. The ultimate answer may be to get the city to take over the street. But that won't happen overnight.
I haven't spoken to DOT about running streetcars up Main, but from past private sector working experience with them, my opinion is that it will be a time consuming/difficult process. However, this is one of those things that should be hashed out in the creation of an overall mass transit master plan. All of these things and more, should be known before a dime of money is spent on BRT, commuter rail or streetcars.
QuoteThe Warehouse District? That would be a great move to create that area.
Yes, a transit station would be a great focal point for adaptive reuse opportunities in the warehouse district to grow around.
Austin's Saltillo District - Capitol Metrorail (commuter rail)(http://www.housingpolicy.org/assets/Gallery/Q-Z/Saltillo_Lofts_1_300x213.jpg)
Minneapolis Warehouse District - MetroTransit Hiawatha Line light rail(http://www.urbanrail.net/am/minn/05-Minneapolis-Warehouse.jpg)
Pearl District - Portland Streetcar(http://pearldistrict.com/communities/StreetcarL_140_pic_1454.jpg)
We could have our own version of these type of scenes with the Springfield Warehouse District.
LOL, yes Lake and I have been confused as twins several times.
...and Stephen, you are not crazy, I have said they work in mixed traffic just fine.
Seriously, Let's look at some streetcar items
STREETCAR BENEFITS - (and we bought buses because they told us THEYwere flexible...HA!)
(http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/streetcar-4104-13.jpg)
As Lake pointed out, here's a view showing it can be NO DIFFERENT then a bus.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1120/528591861_f29b923a3b.jpg)
IF this were a bus you'd be looking for your gas mask right about now.
(http://www.inetours.com/New_Orleans/images/StChrls/Streetcar_ext.jpg)
Almost as pretty as Main, oh, and Palmetto, and Kings, and Pearl, and...
(http://stephenrees.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/high-level-bridge-and-lrt.jpg)
When a streetcar IS a Skyway
(http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/streetcar-4012-17.jpg)
A RAILROAD? Gee I want to see a JTA bus do this trick!
(http://www.trainweb.org/mccann/9streetcar.jpg)
Mixing a 1920's vintage car with new ones works too, huh? Where ARE our vintage buses?
(http://www.ocnjmuseum.org/ochm_06_art/exhibit_art/2rd/trolleybridge.jpg)
Streetcar over the sea in NJ
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Streetcarsideoftheroad.jpg)
Can a bus run alongside the road without pavement? A streetcar can.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/StreetcarGrass.jpg)
Let's have a race, you get a new JTA bus and I'll... oops, what do you mean your stuck?
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/StreetcarLoungesounyry.jpg)
Whatever system we choose, we've got to reproduce some of our unique cars, how about this LOUNGE CAR for the JAXIWOOD MOVIE Elite?
(http://www.lomita.com/cityhall/about/history/trolley.gif)
Of course they only work in dense areas, today we call this place LOS ANGELES.
(http://www.zombiezodiac.com/rob/ped/streetcar_future/terry_streetcar.JPG)
Once funded, construction moves very fast - 4-6 blocks per month is possible
Gee that was fun, any questions?
OCKLAWAHA
The street cars are great, buses not. I still do not think we should have our historic district clogged up with buses so a couple of people in Brentwood can get downtown. DT to FCCJ? Please! Why can't anyone walk or rid a bike anymore? I am telling you the buses that go down Pearl right now are mostly empty...why are we discussing this anyhow? Fill up the damn buses and then talk to us about needing increased service. No one in this neighborhood with any type of investment, and I mean no one is going to support this running down Pearl or Blvd in the Historic District. As I type this I just heard three gun shots from over behind Shands....yep these are the people I want riding the bus to any retail we may have in our district. Make a BRT line with an express from Brentwood and Lincoln court to San Marco then we can talk!
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4146.30/topicseen.html
IF, Metro Jacksonville is supporting this then I am very disappointed, very disappointed indeed. I understand ya'll are about transportation, but killing neighborhoods and the value of their homes, businesses, and quality of life should take precedent over a new bus line.
I can't speak for Metro Jacksonville, but I have no problem with a dependable bus line running on a four lane commercial corridor, like Main. While I do not think that they are compatible along the residential sections of Boulevard (moreso Brentwood/New Springfield than Springfield), they are fine if they serve commercial corridors. To me, it feels like several don't fully understand how an integrated mass transit system properly runs.
I could understand, if a proposal came along that limited accessibility to everyone in favor of dedicated bus lanes with buses that ran every 90 seconds. But I'd challenge anyone on this site to prove that a limited service bus route (one bus every 10 minutes), resulting in the elimination of dupicate routes, down a commercial corridor kills it. That's an improvement from what I can understand.
Also, why does everyone think that this is a streetcar or bus situation? Reality is, that they are two different transit components that have their own niche. Both are needed to have a successful regional system.
A. An express bus makes limited stops over a long distance between the core and suburbs. In this case, it appears to be one stop per neighborhood.
B. A streetcar is typically a more localized service that can make as many stops as one every two or three blocks.
Given this information, it should be expected that they could easily overlap along certain corridors. So, I have no problem with JTA wanting to improve the poor system that is currently running today. My major wish is that an integrated transit master plan (showing how all the modes complement each other) is put together first and sold to the community before they move forward with anything.
I guess the issue is it is not all commercial we are speaking of here. There are major portions (with the exception of Main St.) that are residential and would be hurt by the plan. Add to that the fact that in a lot of cases, we don't need to make it easier for some riders to get to certain areas. Lastly, and again.... fill up the busses that are currently running. These buses tool around not even half full, it is a waste of money. I am still trying to figure out where these people are going that they need a bus every ten minutes? Can anyone tell me? The busstops around here are usually full of people sitting and drinking....not waiting to ride the bus.
I think one of the reasons they are doing this is to fill up existing buses and make the system more attractive. The buses used would be the newer ones already running on the streets today. The system will just be revamped to make it more attractive for all, from my understanding.
However, I agree with you position, regarding Boulevard Street. People would be hurt by such a plan along that corridor.
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 05, 2009, 06:24:44 AM
I am telling you the buses that go down Pearl right now are mostly empty...why are we discussing this anyhow? Fill up the damn buses and then talk to us about needing increased service.
This is the kind of logic that anti-transit people make....and it will be the hardest thing for JTA to overcome if/when they decide to invest in a rail system.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 05, 2009, 08:40:03 AM
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 05, 2009, 06:24:44 AM
I am telling you the buses that go down Pearl right now are mostly empty...why are we discussing this anyhow? Fill up the damn buses and then talk to us about needing increased service.
This is the kind of logic that anti-transit people make....and it will be the hardest thing for JTA to overcome if/when they decide to invest in a rail system.
Why is that illogical, as Spock would say. If the current buses aren't being used why would anything else magically cause the ridership to increase?
Because by creating a better QOS, you will naturally enhance riders. Let me ask you something, what looks better, an 85 Ford, or an 05 Ford. Buses should never be mistaken for Rail, and JTA's quotes in the recent past about buses being like rail are crazy. However, you can't have rail only. The City Of New York has the largest passenger rail transit network on America, and I believe they have more buses than anyone as well. You need them both. Just like crazy Uncle Ned makes your family complete, buses make a transit network complete.
By having dedicated bus corridors, you can more easily invest the money for nicer stops, better headways, signal priorities, etc.
And also, I can't speak for MJ as a whole, but I do not endorse this service on a residential street.
How about adding an informative, catchy, witty, public relations campaign on TV and radio. We must have some marketing folks on this site... If COJ was going to hire you to do a public relations campaign to boost ridership, enhance awareness, and announce new mass transit options in Duval county, how would you do it??
Ock, what is the photo of that you captioned "When a streetcar IS a Skyway?"
Looks pretty cool.
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 05, 2009, 06:24:44 AM
I am telling you the buses that go down Pearl right now are mostly empty...why are we discussing this anyhow? Fill up the damn buses and then talk to us about needing increased service.
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 05, 2009, 07:59:36 AM
ILastly, and again.... fill up the busses that are currently running. These buses tool around not even half full, it is a waste of money. I am still trying to figure out where these people are going that they need a bus every ten minutes? Can anyone tell me? The busstops around here are usually full of people sitting and drinking....not waiting to ride the bus.
I think your logic is flawed on two accounts:
1) The improvements are intended to improve ridership numbers. The better service should increase the service's popularity. I'm not saying it would in fact be successful, but that's just the theory behind it (imo)
2) I believe that buses are far more important than a snapshot of their ridership at any given moment would indicate. I just flew back to Chicago from Jax this weekend, via Detroit on Northwest Airlines. My flight from Detroit to Chicago was less than a third full...probably about 20 people total. The airline lost money on that one isolated flight, but they still find it necessary to provide frequent service from their hub in Detroit to other major cities. Why? Simply put, if they didn't, I wouldn't have flown on Northwest at all, nor would many other people who need to go to Chicago. Similarly, choice riders are more inclined to take the bus if they know they can get where they need to go when they need to go there. A popular bus line that you approve of because it is full might only be full because some folks got on that bus down Pearl that is mostly empty. Those empty buses are sometimes as important as the ones carrying the majority of the riders.
I'm no expert and I'm not saying you're totally wrong, UG, you were just looking for answers so I'm giving you my take.
Where is the documentation to support any of this supposition? Jacksonville is not a big bus riding town. I have lived in large metro areas where the bus was used by everyone, white and blue collar workers, non workers, and school children. That is not the case (at least from what I have seen an experienced here) in Jacksonville. Hoping to increase rider ship by putting in an express lane, nicer bus stop, nicer bus is great wishful thinking, but the reality is peoples homes, businesses, and quality of life could/would be impacted 9depending on route and none look to good) for a "what if" scenario. As stated before, when buses were rerouted down my street from Blvd. I ended up with two cracked windows in my house, and lots of trash and dirt not to mention the noise! The current bus stops (even or maybe even more so the newer ones) are occupied by homeless and drinkers 24/7 so why pay to put in nicer ones for them. Imagine eating on the sidewalk at holas or another place on Main and having a big bus cruise by every ten minutes... yeah not my idea of a great time either.
Can someone post some type of verification of a potential increase in rider ship and impacts both negative and positive to the surrounding neighborhoods these routes are planned for in support of this plan? I have yet to see it, just wishful maybes and of course berating for being 'against mass transit".
I am not against mass transit, I am not against buses I have used a variety of transportation options in the past, but these were well planned, well thought out options.
How do you know that this isn't being well planned....or that those other systems were well planned...for example, for the first 20 years that Metrorail was operating in Miami, it seemed like a colossal mistake...its only in the last 8+ years that the system has been seen in a positive light.
The environmental impact study that is being revised by JTA (because this is a new route) will include ridership projections...as well as assessments regarding the impact to neighborhoods (from traffic, noise, etc.)
Believe me, while this is a relatively minor transit project, FTA won't approve the funding if the numbers don't make sense!
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 05, 2009, 07:07:40 PM
I am not against mass transit, I am not against buses I have used a variety of transportation options in the past, but these were well planned, well thought out options.
Fair enough, I do believe you aren't anti-public transportation, and that you have valid concerns about the effect on your neighborhood...but just don't use the half-empty bus argument as justification against them.
Jacksonville's bus system has been unreliable for a long time. It is what it is now, you can't undo what's already done. The Detroit Lions lost every game this year. So, should the JTA join up with all of the Lions fans just sail a ship halfway to China and call it a day? I'd rather them try to learn from their previous mistakes, and implement things to try to improve the situation, wouldn't you?
Quote from: Steve on January 05, 2009, 01:49:09 PM
Because by creating a better QOS, you will naturally enhance riders. Let me ask you something, what looks better, an 85 Ford, or an 05 Ford. Buses should never be mistaken for Rail, and JTA's quotes in the recent past about buses being like rail are crazy. However, you can't have rail only. The City Of New York has the largest passenger rail transit network on America, and I believe they have more buses than anyone as well. You need them both. Just like crazy Uncle Ned makes your family complete, buses make a transit network complete.
By having dedicated bus corridors, you can more easily invest the money for nicer stops, better headways, signal priorities, etc.
And also, I can't speak for MJ as a whole, but I do not endorse this service on a residential street.
Boy I disagree Steve, maybe I'm wrong, have been in the past. But I remember the comment about putting lipstick on a pig. If the line doesn't run from where someone wants lives to where they want to go doesn't matter how attractive the buses or the transit system is
That's one of the major reasons for revamping the current bus system. They want to make it more attractive by proving dependable routes to destinations where people what to go. I think we all can agree that what they have right now does not work. The only way you can fix this problem is to attempt to improve it.
QuoteBoy I disagree Steve, maybe I'm wrong, have been in the past. But I remember the comment about putting lipstick on a pig. If the line doesn't run from where someone wants lives to where they want to go doesn't matter how attractive the buses or the transit system is
I think you missed the point of what I was saying - my comment was not just in reference to the vehicle, but in reference to the overall quality of service (QOS). This inclues the quality of the vehicle, the corridor it runs on, the stop locations, the headways (frequency), and other factors. What JTA is packaging is not BRT (I know they are going to call it that, so whatever), it is really just improved bus service, but by doing all of these things (I'm sure it will be branded different as well), it will help the ridership overall. I believe the route they have selected is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the original plan of going alongside I-95 (imagine getting dropped off at 95 & MLK), but they just need to alter it to not go through the residential neighborhood.
Quote from: zoo on January 03, 2009, 04:53:38 PM
Et tu Brutae? If this bus line gets executed on Main/8th, you can kiss any future streetcar goodbye.
'You need to believe me because of my honor, As Caesar lov'd/ me, I weep for him; as he was fortunate, I rejoice/ at it; as he was valiant, I honor him; but, to the extent he was ambitious, I killed him.'
"You need to believe me because of my honor, As good Transit lov'd me, I pray fort it; as JTA is fortunate, I rejoice at it; as they valiantly plan, I honor them; but, to the extent where Quickway BRT is foolish, I killed it."BRUTUS OCKLAWAHAUS
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on January 05, 2009, 03:41:09 PM
Ock, what is the photo of that you captioned "When a streetcar IS a Skyway?"
Looks pretty cool.
This is one of the new elevated LRT systems, something between Light Rail and Heavy Rail really. For example major parts of Buffalo and St. Louis systems have been built as LRT in Subways. It's cool but I can't really support the costs involved, at least not here. OCKLAWAHA
Very cool. I was curious to know where in the world that photo was taken though.
Lake- what is wrong with being dropped off at MLK and 95?
Again I do not want this going through residential districts, or cutting off the walkability of our neighborhood, but where exactly are these buses going that people want to get to that they need to go through Springfield? Perhaps once they release some studies proving their theory I will feel better about this, but so far I am just not buying the whole thing. Half full buses does have a place here for discussion, why should my neighborhood lower our quality of life for a few people to get where they are going quicker or in a prettier bus? I think this is a valid question, but can see how someone who will not be personally impacted could care less.
MLK & I-95 happen to be two high speed expressways with nothing within walking distance. Jacksonville is better off without any transit, than a riderless system that drops people off where they don't want to go.
Also, poor bus service and mass transit in general negatively impacts Springfield's quality of life. If we have a chance to make a positive impact, we should be all over it to make sure it happens correctly.
exactly Lake....the most successful transit systems stop at both the passenger's origin and destination....now, this is often difficult to accomplish with rail (or BRT) that has limited stops....which is why there must be a fully integrated system that includes local bus as well.
In this case, JTA is proposing a hybrid of local bus and BRT....its basically an express route with limited stops and short headways.
Need proof that reliable bus service will not have a negative impact on a commercial corridor?
Here is a bus that stops at Boylston & Dartmouth Streets (Back Bay Boston) every 7 minutes during peak hours and every 20 minutes off peak.
9 Copley Sqaure via Broadway: Weekday Effective 12/27/08
http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/bus/routes/?route=9
Here are a few photos from past MJ articles showing the immediate area surrounding the bus stop:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2068-dsc01938.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7343-p1120421.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7355-p1120427.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7350-p1120418.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/boston/DCP_5102.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2065-dsc01939.JPG)
Below is a make shift seating area for a bus stop at 6th & Main (Jacksonville), right before the streetscape project started.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/bus_shelters/springfield_diy.jpg)
It would be hard to argue that reliable bus service has had a negative impact on Copley Square and Bolyston Street. In fact, it would be easier to argue that it has increased the area's vibrancy by providing a direct transit connection to Back Bay from the dense neighborhoods south of I-95, near Independence Square.
By the way, speaking of layering transit modes, a portion of the Green Line runs underneath the street and has a station at this location also. This bus route connects the Green, Silver and Red lines with Independence Square. Without this bus, transit riders in the connecting neighborhoods would be forced to ride into downtown Boston to transfer to other lines.
(http://www.emdx.org/rail/canard/BouffeNew-York/photos/d040Boston-GreenLineTram.jpg)
An integrated transportation system in Jacksonville would offer the same opportunities, as shown above, with a mix of local bus, rapid bus, commuter rail, streetcars, Amtrak and the skyway.
Nobody is saying there shouldn't be layered transit in Springfield. What I'm saying is I'd prefer that layered transit be consistent with the character of the neighborhood. If BRT (express bus, whatever) is not on Main, then there is a reason to have a linked route on 8th & Main that is more historically appropriate (I think we would all agree that the buses there never should have been - it should have stayed streetcar!)
Lake, any chance we'll see a map of the solution we discussed the other day that shows the BRT/express bus on Broad/Jefferson/Boulevard (north of 10th)/Pearl (north of S-line link)/Golfair, etc? As we discussed, this route, of at least 30 blocks, included the least residential disruption (approximately 5-6 blocks on a 4-lane stretch of Golfair), and did not affect connectivity of the Historic District to its park system, or one side of the district from the other, or the residential areas north of Springfield.
Then layer on the 8th/Main trolley route - I know this is just a bus, but it is more historically appropriate and short-term actionable (still possible in 2009), since we'll have to wait at least 3 years for streetcar - and you've got layered transit, commercial corridor connectivity, historical appropriateness and minimized residential disruption. Then layer on the S-line commuter rail and bikeway, and you've got a useful system.
The pics of Copley are nice, and of course they show people enjoying the bus-fumed air. In a city with Boston's density (compared to Jax's) I would expect people to be outside there despite traffic noise/fumes, 5-degree temps, or maybe even a napalm drop at Fenway.
Here you go Zoo:
Buses making limited stops, will run every 10 minutes during peak (rush) hours and every 15 off peak. Aerials include JTA's routes for commuter rail (orange) and streetcar (green).
BRT North Corridor - JTA plan
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454241506_Sj8UC-XL.jpg)
Pro: straight line down/up Boulevard
Con: Excluding Shands, Boulevard is residential between Hogans Creek and Golfair.
MetroJacksonville Alt A - Jefferson/Shands/Pearl
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454241507_feWhh-XL.jpg)
Pro: BRT provides service to Shands while avoiding residential areas.
Con: Would require buses to make multiple turns between the railroad tracks and 8th Street.
MetroJacksonville Alt B - Jefferson/8th/Pearl
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454241547_5vNS4-XL.jpg)
Pro: Provides service to Shands while avoiding most residential areas.
Con: There is a two block stretch of residential on Pear, between 9th & 11th Streets.
MetroJacksonville Alt C - Main Street
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454241548_aFHEG-XL.jpg)
Pro: connects with FCCJ stations, two-way Main between DT and Springfield and Main is a commercial corridor.
Con: No connection to Shands.
Here is another alternative that pushes the express bus route to Myrtle Avenue. However, there is also a stretch just south of Golfair that is residential.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/454248967_s7WFi-XL.jpg)
Jefferson to Myrtle. Interesting idea when you consider the S-line in layered transit plan.
Quote• JTA is hosting a public meeting concerning the proposed Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) North Corridor March 9 from 5-7 p.m. at the Gateway Mall. The study transit corridor extends from Downtown north along Boulevard Street to the Gateway Mall and further north along Norwood Avenue and Lem Turner Road ending south of Armsdale Road near I-295. Interested parties are invited to view study materials, discuss the project with JTA staff and provide comments. Anyone requiring special accommodations should call 630-3185 no later than March 2.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php