I've been lurking here for awhile, reading about the Springfield area. I'm getting married soon and am seriously considering buying a house in Springfield (assuming the banks start lending in the next 6 months). My fiancee is drawn to the area. She's lived all around the country. I, on the other hand, am a 29 year old Jacksonville native, and my dad is a Jax native, too, whose grandmother grew up in Springfield... and he thinks I'm crazy!
I guess my question is, for people who have recently moved into the area - how bad is it, really? My dad is convinced it's an unsalvageable ghetto, but I don't think he's driven thru there since the 1980s. I've driven thru recently, during the day and at night, and it doesn't look anymore dangerous than some parts of Riverside. Certainly the Christmas lights were gorgeous, on the few blocks that had lights up.
Are there any hassles I'll face, buying a home over there? I'm looking for something that needs some work (painting, flooring) but not a complete rehab... can I expect to run into many code issues?
We're currently renting a place in an area I grew up in, the Lakewood area (off Hendricks, right where it hits San Jose). How does the environment compare with something like that? Are the neighbors pleasant but still leave you alone? Is it safe to walk the dog after dark?
We hate to spend a ton of money for a tiny house in San Marco or Avondale, and those places have all become yuppiefied. At the same time, we don't want to live in a ghetto... Help!
Welcome to the forum. Historic Springfield is a fantastic neighborhood. Your father's opinion about the area is out dated by about 10 years...there's been major improvements, and you should come see for yourself. I suggest that you also check out the neighborhood forum, http://www.sparcouncil.org/forums/ (http://www.sparcouncil.org/forums/)
Some random thoughts that might help :) I just recently moved to Springfield from Downtown. I'm in a nice renovated rental. My friends just bought a house on Laura Street and moved in a week ago. They got a fantastic deal and while their house needs some work, it is certainly livable. They also are very impressed with their neighbors. I know numerous people who live on or next to Market Street, so look there as well. The Main Street construction is annoying but hopefully someday will be completed. The part that is finished looks great. You are going to get more house for your money in Springfield. I would say try to stay away from buying near the "crack" markets on Eighth. These little stores attract the drunks and drug addicts, and I know a homeowner who has had trouble with overflow into his property. There are a number of homes in foreclosure/for sale south of 8th and that's where I would look first. The third and main complex is going to be very nice and is really turning around that area of main. Make sure to check out the Three Layers Coffehouse on Walnut. Get a "Jeff Square." You will love it ;)
Moved to Springfield six months ago. Great neighbors, Great Neighborhood!
I just went to contract on a house in Riverside, but I think Springfield is a great neighborhood. Tell your dad that a lot can happen in 25 years to a neighborhood.
Whenever I talk to people, that I what I find a lot of - the people from out of town like it, the Jacksonville Veterans can't imagine it as a good neighborhood.
I'm also a Springfield resident and I love it. I'm a Jax transplant but my girlfriend is a native and she loves it too. Your family's perceptions, like most people I talk to in Jacksonville, are way outdated. Not to diss your pops but he clearly knows nothing about development or urban trends. Nothing is an unsalvageable ghetto, I've see worse hoods in DC improve quicker than Springfield has. I moved to SPR three years ago and the neighborhood was already liveable and the area has only improved. It is safe to walk your dog after dark and there's a great new dog park in Confederate Park. Market & Laura are definitely prime streets but there are plenty of deals to be had. In addition to the boards, I suggest just walking around the neighborhood and talking to people. Good luck on your loan!
BTW, as far as teh lending thing - I actually found the banks pretty easy to get money from. Not to say it's ever a given, but as long as you are buying for a primary residence, it's not too bad.
I wouldn't talk to Wachovia or Countrywide, but I'd consider someone like EverBank (who is Jacksonville-based BTW).
Quote from: Steve on December 29, 2008, 10:33:26 AM
Tell your dad that a lot can happen in 25 years to a neighborhood.
the Jacksonville Veterans can't imagine it as a good neighborhood.
This is VERY true. I have many friends who were born and raised in Jax. They have a hard time pushing past the mentality of Springfield 20 or even 10 years ago. It amazes me, nothing ever changes huh? Is there still some crime? Sure, just like the rest of the city. Even in Queen's Harbor as we are told by JSO. Yes there are still some homeless hanging out and drug addicts, like any urban neighborhood. Is it prevalent? No. Is it the ghetto? No. But I'm talking about Historic Springfield not the general area referred to as Springfield. There are low income people living in Hist SPR, these are the ones assumed to cause all the crime right? Not true, it is the very low income and desperate/"no options" people that are in the surrounding areas of Hist SPR that make up the predominance of the criminal activity. I say "no options" while rolling my eyes. But that is the way they see their lives: much easier to take from someone else than work for it yourself.
Hist SPR is a great place to live even for a security-phobic person such as myself. Why don't you and your fiancee join in on the New Year's Eve Wandering Cocktail Party and get to know 100 or so of your potential new neighbors? You'll find the info at the website jbm32206 mentioned.
My wife and I were newly weds several years ago and have lived in Springfield for 5 years on Market St. We absolutely love it and can not imagine living in any other neighborhood!
Things have changed dramatically in the five years we have been in the neighborhood and they have all been for the better of course. It's a good time to move into the neighborhood as the Main St renovation project is being completed and hopefully retail along with the 3rd and Main project are completed.
What they said!!! Its a great neighborhood. If I didnt live in Springfield, I dont think I would still live in Jax.
The only thing I recommend to new and perspective buyers is to coming in with your eyes open. Get to know the area around the house you want to buy, and make sure your ok with it. There are areas more active than others. I was hanging out with my father in law on my front porch on Christmas day, and in the two hours we were sitting there BSing, the only people who passed us were my neighbors who I could identify and knew. This is a dramatic decrease in the amount of foot traffic from when we moved in 5+ years ago, and to be frank, surprised even me.
Thanks, guys. You have provided valuable insight. My fiancee has had her heart set on a place in Springfield for months now so I don't really think I had much choice, anyway!
I feel like I made my dad look like an idiot -- I should mention that his grandmother's home was in Springfield, and he saw the area fall from what it was in the 1950s to what it became, in the 80s and 90s. He did drive thru the area several months ago, but I don't think he was impressed. What a couple people said is true -- people from out of town don't have the negative perceptions of the area that natives have.
I'm justifying it by thinking I can get a lot more house in Springfield for a lot less money, and it looks like the area is on the upswing, versus someplace like San Marco that is almost prohibitively expensive, at least for a middle class couple like us (well, okay, upper middle class). The property values ought to improve, especially if I buy something soon. (You guys are reading my thoughts here. I'm typing as I convince myself!)
Someone mentioned the New Year's Eve Wandering Cocktail Party. We might just check that out.
Thanks again! I'll keep you guys posted! Thanks also to the guy who mentioned the local bank!
Nah, your dad doesn't sound like an idiot. If he saw the area go into its worst decline then that's a tough perception to shake. A couple of drive-through visits won't do it, and truthfully you may never win that battle!
I bought my house in 2003 and I had to deal with the same type of stuff - we all have. You either fall in love with this place or you don't...it really can't be put into words. Having said that, don't overly romanticize it either, or you'll be setting yourselves up for disappointment.
The wandering cocktail party is one of the most fun events we have (and we have a lot of them!) and it gets bigger and better every year. Can you imagine another neighborhood where people just open their homes to anybody who shows up, just for fun?
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2008-12-29/1_dead_in_springfield_shooting (http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2008-12-29/1_dead_in_springfield_shooting)
Well since Chaz didn't elaborate on this story I will. This was a drug related killing on the edge of Springfield. Crime in Springfield has dropped dramatically over the last five years. Do a search on www.coj.net on crime statistics. Springfield has a much lower crime rate than Riverside but doesn't have that perception.
You should attend the Wandering Cocktail Tour tonight. The people in this neighborhood are awesome!!! We hosted a stop on the Thanksgiving tour.
So what/who defines Springfield's boundaries? It seems to me that whenever the police - or, more often the media report a crime in Springfield, this board is quick to point out that it was actually on the fringe or outside of the immediate area. My inquiry is not meant to be flippant, but there seems to be some confusion (by me, obviously) as to this slice of heaven nestled within close proximity to many of JAX's unfortunate happenings. If this individual was not shot in Springfield, then where?
First of all, yes..that did happen inside the historic Springfield area, on Walnut between 2nd and 3rd. There has not been a statement made that says it was drug related, though given the circumstances and the events that took place, it does appear to have been. There was also shots fired at 3rd and Ionia, which is just blocks away...nobody was injured in that and police feel this is directly related to the killing.
However, the majority of the time, when crimes are reported in the media, they call it Springfield and 9 out of 10 times, it's not and were in areas surrounding, like Brentwood.
This quote from the spar council website will explain the boundaries of Historic Springfield
QuoteThe boundaries of Springfield are well defined. Hogan's Creek lies along its south edge, and railroad lines are found on the north and east. Boulevard defines the western limit of the district where a later commercial strip abuts the earlier residential area. Contemporary with the overall residential area are two commercial strips along Main and Eighth Streets which join at the heart of the district. The district contains 119 city blocks in an area of approximately 500 acres, or slightly less than one square mile. Hogan's Creek separates the residences of Springfield from the downtown business district. North of the creek few buildings rise above two stories and parks and tree lined streets are common.
http://www.sparcouncil.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15:springfield-national-historic-district-a-history&catid=7:springfield-info&Itemid=25 (http://www.sparcouncil.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15:springfield-national-historic-district-a-history&catid=7:springfield-info&Itemid=25)
Blizz,
There is crime in Springfield like everywhere else. Most of the crime in Historic Springfield that actually impacts the residents, amounts to getting your stuff stolen (we most recently had a garden hose theif running the neighborhood). We have had a couple of shootings, but they are thug on thug shootings (drug dealers that need to work on thier anger management). I haven't heard of anyone walking down the main street getting robbed at gun point in a looooonnnnnggg time, like what just happened in Riverside. I also have not heard of an innocent DJ getting his eyeballs cut out after a show in Springfield, although we did have some enterprising thiefs use a frontloader to break into the pharmacy on 8th st to steal some oxycontin which most likely has already been sold over in Riverside ;)
The point is, if someone gets shot on the other side of 95 or up on 58th st, that really is not even close. It would be like contributing all the crime happening on the the other side of 10 to Riverside day after day. Worse crime happens in what is perceived by some to be "better neighborhoods" but no one just posts a freaking link to one story here....unless it is Springfield, and usually that person is a native. There IS a bias with natives, they almost seem to HATE our little slice of heaven. It's OK though, they would not enjoy the neighborhood, neighbors, or events anyway it is better for them to stay in their gated community or whatever vanilla flavored neighborhood they are currently living in where they feel safe.
Nicely put (all) - thanks.
The problem is, people (Jax and everywhere else) hear about these nameless, faceless crimes. They fear these areas because they have this mental image of the wild wild west where you have black Bart and his band of crack dealers and pimps that randomly attack innocent civilians as they go peaceable about their day.
this is simply not whats happening, be it in Springfield, or even Durkeeville or Moncrief. Violent crime more often than not involves two people who have direct knowledge of each other, and are resultant from a personal conflict. Drug deal gone bad, misdealing's with girlfriends, theft of goods, ect.
The people of Jacksonville MUST reengage these communities. Help empower the good people that feel stuck and powerless in violent neighborhoods by supporting them, encouraging them, volunteering with them. There should NEVER be a reason for someone to live in fear, and for native Jaxsons to look down their nose at these communities, and even go so far to make derisive comments on the local news station websites is beyond disgusting to me.
City Council also defines the boundaries of Springfield.
QuoteSec. 656.367. Boundaries and zoning overlay.
The Springfield Zoning Overlay generally follows the boundaries as depicted in the map (Figure 1) of the Springfield Action Plan, produced by the Jacksonville Planning and Development Department in May, 1997, as revised in August, 1998. Variations from the map in the Springfield Action Plan are reflected in the northern and southern boundaries of the overlay district. More specifically, the Springfield Zoning Overlay includes all parcels located within the following boundaries:
Beginning at the west side of North Main Street where it crosses Hogans Creek; thence north and west along Hogans Creek to Broad Street; thence north along the centerline of Broad Street and Boulevard to the abandoned Seaboard Coast Line railroad right-of-way to north of West 12th Street; thence east along the abandoned railroad right-of-way to North Pearl Street; thence south along the centerline of North Pearl Street to West 12th Street; thence east along the centerline of West 12th Street to North Main Street; thence north along the center of North Main Street to the abandoned Seaboard Coast Line railroad right-of-way north of Warren Street; thence east along the railroad right-of-way to Walnut Street; thence south along the centerline of Walnut Street to East 11th Street; thence east along the centerline of East 11th Street to the right-of-way of the St. Johns River Terminal Company railroad located just east of Ionia Street and Clark Street; thence south along said railroad right-of-way to East First Street; thence west along the centerline of East First Street to its intersection with Walnut Street; thence south along the centerline of Walnut Street to Phelps Street; thence west along the centerline of Phelps Street to North Market Street; thence south along the centerline of North Market Street to its crossing over Hogans Creek; thence west and north along Hogans Creek to the point of beginning.
Might I suggest someone with graphics skills to create a "Springfield Boundary Map" for us...:)
Map of Historic Springfield from the City of Jax website:
http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/eqkemg2gwgi23coso5fbthfym5nqybg4es26qwox7cwrmc67q7skswcsvafata324ywjsxymrtm5nuhvuxfuzvkw7xf/springfield_district_map.pdf
Bad link :(
Perhaps this will work. If not, ya'll can go to www.coj.net and search for "Springfield Historic."
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Regulatory+Boards+and+Commissions/Historic+Preservation+Commission/Springfield+Historic+District+.htm
I was considering Springfield too earlier this year. I then decided to put my search on hold for a variety of reasons. If I decide I am staying in Jax then I will look in SPR again as well as Riverside/Avondale/San Marco.
The main drawback to SPR for me is that it is not a very walkable hood. I mean walkable from the standpoint of places to WALK TO. I know everyone is expecting things to come, but I am a little discouraged by the economy and the fact that the SPR revitalization has been going on for 10-20 years and while SPR is much better it is not as far along as I would have thought it would be. I would hate to buy a house and have it be 10+ years before any retail/dining comes in.
But speaking of walkability, when you go to the other hoods I mentioned you typically see lots of people walking/jogging/cycling. I do not see that in SPR when I am over there. I have walked over from the Southbank on a few occasions and felt very alone. I have also driven around A LOT and it is seldom I see people from my SES out enjoying the day by taking a walk or jog. Is that just my perception or do others feel that way too?
Someone else said that you need to check the immediate surroundings of the house you are considering and you need to make sure you are not over-romanticizing what living in SPR will be like. I think they hit the nail on the head because I think I have a tendency to romanticize it myself. I can come up with logical reasons to NOT buy over there, but still can not get SPR out of my mind. I guess it is the history of the hood and the style of houses that keeps me interested.
Those are my random thoughts on the subject.
I see people jogging in the early morning...and I also see people walking around as I'm walking the dog...so I'm not sure where you've been that you don't see others. I do, however agree that there's not a great deal (yet) to walk to, other than a few places...Three Layers being one of them
SB I felt the same way when I was looking for a house. I came very, very close to buying a house in Avondale blocks away from the Fox, Brick, etc.... I felt it was a better fit for me, because while Springfield is walkable, where would I walk to, KFC?
But the houses and people won me over in Springfield. That may be "romantic", but I do not regret my decision. I may not have a the "Fox" to walk to, but I have "Tommy's", I may not have "Brick" but I have "Three layers", I may not have a fancy cafe, but dang my neighbors can cook, and did I mention they are from all over the world so the specialty dishes are delish????!!!! I may not have a great night club, but I do have "Shanty Town and the Pearl" or even better the many wonderful cocktail parties and wine events at neighbors houses. I may not have a movie theatre like 5 points, but I do have football, kickball, baseball, softball, and soccer games to attend right down the street, not to mention weekly bike rides. I may have to scoot over to Riverside and Avondale once in a while, for a few unique items, but I would not trade all of the above for those few items, I can deal with driving over the bridge for that. I know my neighbors names and numbers, I know the post mans name, not only on my street, but in every quadrant of the neighborhood, I know my trash guys name, and I know the name of the young man that comes and checks my meters every month. I haven't even mentioned all the gorumet treats i received this month, so much better than anything I have ever had at Peterbrookes....right here from kitchens in Springfield ;D
I do agree that Three Layers ROCKS!
But I am not sure I should live too close to it with that dessert case. ;D
Uptown, that is one heck of a great description of what makes a real neighborhood. You are one lucky lady.
That's right...we are lucky, this is a fantastic neighborhood, with real neighbors...who just happen to become friends. I can't think of anywhere else in this city, I'd want to live.
Let's not forget the Third and Main additions which I believe will be opening during 2009. A new breakfast cafe and market, from what I've heard. Anything else going in there? Someone said a sub shop, but that could just be "hope." Who on here has the inside scoop? You would think the developers would want to announce the plans as soon as leases are signed. We also have a post office on main street which is easy to walk to.
^City Kidz Ice Cream Cafe will also be going into Third & Main.
QuoteCity Kidz Ice Cream Cafe serves premium hand scooped ice cream, all natural fruit smoothies, kosher gourmet fresh baked cookies, real lump meat crab cake sandwiches, gourmet sandwiches, seafood cocktail, espresso drinks, and gourmet juices.
http://www.citykidzicecream.com/about-city-kidz/menu/index.html
Any decent retail in 3rd and Main would be wonderful!!!!
True that
I live on the now much-maligned lower Walnut Street and I can honestly say that the recent shooting is not indicative of our immediate area. [The shooting affected the a family on our block, the matriarch of which many of us lower Walnut residents care for deeply as a beloved neighbor. Our thoughts are with her.]
We've been here over two years. While we do live on the edge of SPR, we typically have fewer complaints about foot traffic, property crime, etc than friends elsewhere in the neighborhood. It's pretty quiet; we know all of our neighbors. We walk to Three Layers for neighbor coffee chats; we have great porch parties, and we look out for each other. Springfield was the right choice for our family. We do not regret it. (To be fair--I think we would have been equally happy in Riverside.)
Quote from: JaxByDefault on December 31, 2008, 06:25:49 PMTo be fair--I think we would have been equally happy in Riverside...
Boooo Hisss!!!!!
Actually, Im kidding. Riverside, generally speaking, are extremely supportive of Springfield, and I think most Springfielders spend the bulk of our money in Riverside. The neighborhoods are actually pretty closely aligned.
Lake, thanks for the tip on City Kidz. Their website says there is a current location in the 1800 block of Main. How come I have never heard or seen this place before? Does it actually exist? The menu looks great and will be a nice addition to the 3rd and Main development.
The current Main Street location may just be an office. They currently cater special events locally. 3rd & Main will be their first storefront operation in Jacksonville.
Awesome...I haven't really been able to keep up but do we know an "Expected" completion date for 3rd and Main
May 2009.
I spoke to Mike at A&A Auto. He still plans to open a Mediterranean restaurant at 6th & Main. He is actively working on the building interior and making sure everything is up to standards for food prep. Probably opening once Main St construction is finished.
Yeah, that's what he told me...that it'll open when the construction is finished...I can't wait!!
My wife and I are also looking for a home in a historic district (Riverside, Avondale, San Marco, or Springfield). You can defenitely find the most for your money in Springfield.
HOWEVER, we are living in Springfield currently, for about 9 months now, renting, a few streets north of 8th and West of Main. The homes on our street and block are alll nice and well maintianed.
A few things have turned us off to the area though:
1) Our neighbors home was broken into a couple months ago in broad daylight, with an alarm sign in their yeard (that wasn't in service), on a corner lot, right through the front door with no cover. A neighbor just happened to see them as they were running away with a couple bags worth of valuables, including guns.
2) The past 2 months 3 people have been held up at gun point. 1 in a car during the day, she drove just drove off. 1 just a few steps from thier house ( a couple got held up actaully) in the evening, not late, and 1 walking from Shands across to 8th street to the twin towers, around 8pm.
I'm sure the criminals don't live in the historic section, but they do know where to go when they need to score.
3) Just yesterday, our metal plant stand was stolen off of our back porch. It's more like a large fireescape, actaully, but we had a few plants on a nice looking pewter plant stand. Well, that's gone now, they left the plants. Again, in the middle of day, while my wife was home...she didn't hear anything.
Now if I were buying ahome by myself then I wouldn't mind living here. I grew up in Riverside in the late 80's & early 90's which was very similar. It doesn't bother me much. However, my wife doesn't feel safe and I certainly can't blame her. I know that there are nicer blocks (which have homes in the high 200's and 300's) in the area, but we can't afford that right now. 200k is our max...and for that you have to buy a home that does have some nice houses, but also some not so nice ones, and is just a stones throw away from some nasty corner store.
This being said, in 10 years I think Springfield will be similar to Riverside. But 10 years is a long time to wait, and I don't want to be one of those victims who's home is broken into, is robbed at point blank range, etc. And who ever said it's safe to walk alone at night.......pshh.....some blocks perhaps, but certainly not the majority without looking over your shoulder the whole way.
We will probably buy a home else where, in less we can find a 200k or lower home in one of the nicer parts of Springfield.
fsu813 I think you hit it right on the head. I really like the area and I think that in the next 5-10 years we will see a lot of great things there. But the truth is (and I've said it here before) I think it's over priced. I'm not faulting anyone, I realize that it's not cheap to rehab! (especially between 2003-2006) Hell, if it were all of the houses in the area would look like new and we probably wouldn't be talking about 5-10 years. However, the reality of the area is that it's not a UTOPIA in the middle of the jungle. There is a lot that has yet to be done in regards to rehabilitation of homes in the area. And even if every home within the SPR historical district were perfect the surrounding area brings it's own set of challenges in the way of spill over drug violence (where everyone says "they were just shooting at each other" the problem is that bullets aren't that smart.)
I think it's important not to over romanticize it. Don't get me wrong, I still see the area as the where I would like to be unfortunately I think it will involve a short-sale or foreclosure. From what I've seen 200k gets you either barley livable, or on the very out skirts of the neighborhood. All things considered it just doesn't add up when compared to other places.
fsu813 - dont give up on Springfield. Yes there are some areas that are better than others, but overall, it's not that bad. Yes, I hear what you are saying about the crime, but I also know that same stuff has happened and will continue to happen in much of Riverside and Avondale. If you really want this type of historic house, you really won't do better than Springfield anyway. Yes, look for the forclosures if you can, and also remember that some owners will sell at these depressed prices because they can not wait, foreclosure or not. Even new houses are being built in Springfield for 150K. I just heard that an all but ready to move in house went for a little over 30K. All of this is bad news for those of us who bought and rehabbed a few years ago (we have elected to dig in and wait this out), but this is good news for anyone who wants in now. There will never be a better time financially.
If you just want a nice house in a nice neighborhood, look further north by the river. The prices are in line, most of the houses have great details, many are brick, most were built in the forties and the crime is somewhat less (at the moment, anyway - who knows for tommorrow). There will be some great choices in your price range - and even much less. You are also still just minutes away from town, and other areas like Riverside. Reasonable shopping is also close by.
It is a great thing that you can buy now and it is a great time to buy. Good luck with your search.
fsu813, I've lived in SPR for around 5 years on both the East side and the West side. All of the incidents you described happening in SPR have also happened in Riverside and Avondale. In fact i believe that crime is worse in Riverside and SPR. You won't find a better community of neighbors. Last night around 20 SPR neighbors all got together for the 1st Springfield Italian Club Dinner. It was a great time.
I am not discounting anything described. It is disturbing. What else disturbs me, however, is this is the first time I have heard about it.
I think that perhaps were you and your neighbors to plug into the neighborhood a bit more, you would feel more secure. check out the SPAR forum at www.sparcouncil.org/forums and see whats going on. We have talked quite a bit about the recent uptick in crime, and ways to fight it.
Matt McVey and several others are hoping to put together a plan to get help to neighbors who need it, as it relates to criminal element. The recent crime has reawaken a lot of people, and I sincerely hope that the response is strong.
FSU813...don't give up on Springfield. I know it can seem hopeless sometimes, but we have to stay and fight the good fight! I live on 3rd between Walnut and Ionia and believe me this past couple of months I have seen some action. I have great neighbors and we all work very hard to make our section of Springfield safe, clean and nice. Get involved with the neighborhood and I assure you, you will want to stay.
FSU813 - I certainly understand your wife's concerns. I'm the safety/security type that regardless of where we live insists on a few things: dog, fence, alarm, weapons. I won't try to paint Springfield as utopia but I have to agree with people who say they have no interest in living in other parts of this city. Springfield is a real neighborhood where you know your neighbors for several blocks, not just the guy you wave at across the street. We've had a recent bad rash of crimes, no doubt being perpetrated by the same couple sets of people. They are breaking in during the day because they think no one is home to stop them. They are brazen and will eventually be caught. I'd hate for you to leave just to find out that crime is just as bad if not worse in other areas. Educate yourself about those areas before you go. Check out the crime stats for other neighborhoods you are considering and you will find that unfortunately this is happening all over the place. Please go to the SHADCO meeting at the Health building on Boulevard on Jan 27th, make your voice and concerns heard.
I wanted to jump back in here, since I started this topic back when my fiancee and I were seriously starting to look for homes.
We've decided to sock away a bigger down payment before we get too serious about trying to find something, but I think we've decided against Springfield for now. I grew up in the San Marco / St Nicholas area, and we live in Lakewood now. I think we're going to look for something in those areas.
We spent a few days walking around a few streets here and there in Springfield and while I felt fine, she just didn't feel safe. Whether it's a realistic fear or her being paranoid about being attacked is irrelevant - if she doesn't feel safe outside during the day walking the dog, then I can't see us living there. It's a shame, too, because there are some beautiful homes there.
Our other issue is that some of the "fixer upper" homes are still too expensive, for the condition of the home and the location. They have the potential to be big, beautiful homes, but for the money we'd have to invest, it doesn't make sense to us to spend $150K on a house in an area that's still coming up but still has a ways to go. If we can find something cheap enough we may reconsider. Of course, we wouldn't buy a new home in the area. We'd want one of the older homes.
I wanted to ask something I haven't seen discussed yet -- how big are the backyards in Springfield? Compared to, say, Lakewood or St Nicholas?
Highly variable. The lots tend to be narrower and deeper in Springfield. Overall I would say they are smaller. Sorry to hear you won't be my neighbor. Surprised you couldn't find a bargain in this market.
Not that it will change your mind, but here's one that's a steal:
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1314-North-Market-St_Jacksonville_FL_32206_1103970333
Wow, i remember when that house was selling for over $400k
QuoteNot that it will change your mind, but here's one that's a steal:
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1314-North-Market-St_Jacksonville_FL_32206_1103970333
That's a robbery, especially in this market. I love the Springfield area. My fiancée and I have looked there as well; but it's up and coming - It's not there yet. Speculators inflating prices to what they think the homes should be worth once the hood makes it is will continue to keep folks out.
QuoteWow, i remember when that house was selling for over $400k
Selling? or Listing? Because selling would mean someone didn't just get robbed they were sexually assaulted as well.
Made an offer on a house in Springfield, we'll see what happens.
Listing. I never thought they would get that kind of money for it. Even when the market was strong.
Quote from: jtwestside on March 24, 2009, 03:53:35 PM
QuoteNot that it will change your mind, but here's one that's a steal:
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1314-North-Market-St_Jacksonville_FL_32206_1103970333
That's a robbery, especially in this market. I love the Springfield area. My fiancée and I have looked there as well; but it's up and coming - It's not there yet. Speculators inflating prices to what they think the homes should be worth once the hood makes it is will continue to keep folks out.
QuoteWow, i remember when that house was selling for over $400k
Selling? or Listing? Because selling would mean someone didn't just get robbed they were sexually assaulted as well.
I think it's in bad taste to say that listing is robbery when it's highly likely these people are taking a loss. These homes don't fix themselves and it's not cheap to do so. If I have to sell my home here in Springfield (which I don't plan to, just saying), I'd have to list it for roughly that same figure at the very least. That is just to payoff loans not to make a profit, those loans don't pay off themselves just because you sell the house.
Bativac, I had to reply after reading your last post. After relocating to Jacksonville my husband and I bought our first house in Lakewood. When we outgrew the 2/1 ranch we bought our second home in St. Nicholas. We had one of the older, larger homes on the river side but I longed to have homes like mine as my view instead of 60's ranch homes. Even though our street was pretty, people kept to themselves and I found it boring. I loved the thought of being a part of the revitalization in Springfield and have been rewarded with great friends, a busy social life and a neighborhood with a sense of community second to none. I have been much happier here than the other two places I've lived in Jacksonville. No matter what you decide, I would reccomend finding out as much as you can about a neighborhood before you choose to make it your home.
Baltivac - have you considered Riverside?
Bativac, it all depends on the size of the backyards....many have large ones, many have smaller ones....it's just a matter of looking around to see what's avail and on the market. Only you can decided where you want to live, and no matter what area, you'll find pros and cons to support a decision or to push you away from it. There's really lovely areas in Jacksonville, and it all depends upon what you're really looking for in a neighborhood (and of course, a house) as to what you will eventually decided upon making the investment.
I've lived in several areas of Jax and I have found Springfield to be where I prefer to live...but that's my choice. What I find here is what pleases me.
"That's a robbery, especially in this market."
It's amazing the different perceptions on what constitutes a deal in housing. Allow me to elucidate.
When I sold my condo in Montgomery County, MD in 2005 I got 230.46 sq/ft . For that market, that was easily the median, if not a little lower. That was for new construction (<3 yrs). It was new when I bought it.
When I purchased my home in Jacksonville later that year, I paid 185.48 sq/ft for brand new construction. For that price I got a house not a condo, a detached 2 car garage, a yard, walking proximity to downtown (as opposed to living 4 mi from the nearest city center), and luxury touches out the wazoo (my condo in Maryland was not considered luxury). To me, I felt I was robbing the builder at gunpoint (to keep the crime metaphor here).
Fast forward to now, the same condo in Maryland is listing for 241.38 sq/ft. Not much of a gain over the last 3 years but then there’s that recession thing I keep hearing about. The house I posted in JAX is listing for 101.38 sq/ft.
Now you see why I think that’s a steal.
The larger picture is you are not competing against typical buyers in JAX when you buy a home in a neighborhood like Springfield. You are competing against new arrivals who have moved from higher equity urban areas and empty nesters and older singles who want an urban environment but don’t have the costs of children or student loans. These factors inflate prices some (even in a downturn). Go to any similarly sized city, find the cool urban neighborhood right next to the CBD, and look at what the prices are. Even in an up and coming neighborhood, I bet they’ll still be more.
You're comparing apples to oranges though. NYC housing often goes for over $1k/square foot. That doesn't mean a $300k house (formerly listed at $400k) in Springfield is a good deal.
Honestly, that place is overpriced. I sold a restored and updated quad in the historic district, with FOUR separate 3/1's in it, each one rented for $1k/mo+, for less than that! And uhh...if nobody's noticed...the real estate market hasn't exactly gotten *better* since then...
I think the highway robbery analogy was pretty accurate.
you want a steal of a deal...check this one out
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/121-5Th-St-East_Jacksonville_FL_32202_1105039013 (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/121-5Th-St-East_Jacksonville_FL_32202_1105039013)
$90.41 a square foot. Definitely appears to be a better deal.
Chris I think you missed my point a bit. I was trying to demonstrate how much perception plays into the price of a home. I was also trying to show how complex the market factors are that determine price.
I don't think that comparing houses on a price per square foot is comparing apples to oranges. It's the most objective raw measure of cost that can be used in home comparisons.
That is an awesome deal tufsu1!
Quoteyou want a steal of a deal...check this one out
Isn't the east side of Main St. pretty rough? The house looks amazing and the price seems great... but if it's located next door to a crack house or meth lab $6.00 a sq ft isn't worth it.
East side of Main is not pretty rough. It's the same as the west side. That's in a great location on 5th. I live only a few blocks away. The block I live in on is about as rough as living in Timberlin Parc.
Eastside is where it's at... I live next to Three layers... everyone's jealous!
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 25, 2009, 11:42:20 AM
you want a steal of a deal...check this one out
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/121-5Th-St-East_Jacksonville_FL_32202_1105039013 (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/121-5Th-St-East_Jacksonville_FL_32202_1105039013)
This is being discussed on the Spar forum. That is an Operation New Hope house and though I am glad it's being built on a vacant lot and bringing in families, it's not an accurate portrayal of home prices in this neighborhood and shouldn't be considered a reasonable price. It's a new home, on a free lot with government incentives. They didn't spend $250,000 for a rehab on a $100,000 condemned structure to get an old beauty back in liveable condition.
Aren't there income limits on Operation New Hope houses?
1) That location of E. 5th isn't "great", but it's ok though.
2) ONH houses have income limitations for the 149k house. I think it's about 62k joint income. If you make more than that then you close to full price, about 190k. The lot is still donated though, so you don't have to pay for the actual land. That being said I think there is only 1 lot available to people making over 62k jointly, the others were donated by the city and have to be given to people that qualify for 149k price.
3) The contractor of ONH, Tom, is a very nice guy.
While ONH is a great operation (we have a renovated home of theirs) they leave many of the historic details "left to be desired."
But overall they do a good job
Cause I love numbers (and to reiterate my comments about deals & steals):
Price per sq/ft for a qualifying income: 90.41
Price per sq/ft for full price: 115.29
Just be aware that banks are now instructing appraisers to include ALL TYPES OF HOUSES in their appraisals. So if your house is brick, don't be suprised to get wood siding as an appraisal, AND at least one foreclosure included. The Appraisals are killing some wood-be home owners.
QuoteJust be aware that banks are now instructing appraisers to include ALL TYPES OF HOUSES in their appraisals. So if your house is brick, don't be suprised to get wood siding as an appraisal, AND at least one foreclosure included. The Appraisals are killing some wood-be home owners.
huh? :-\
Yeah!
No I meant I "huh" as in I didn't understand your post.
You're saying these brand new construction homes are going to be appraised wrong?
Brand new construction is being appraised just like all other properties. Unless the homebuilder is loaning the money, all banks are now including foreclosures and other properties that may not conform to the "new construction". You, the buyer, have no control, even if you supply your own comps.
Quotebanks are now including foreclosures and other properties that may not conform to the "new construction".
Including these properties with what? They're going to appraise a brick house as having wood siding and as classify them as foreclosure from a charitable home builder that hadn't foreclosed?
None of this makes any sense.
Quote from: Shwaz on March 26, 2009, 09:11:08 AM
Quotebanks are now including foreclosures and other properties that may not conform to the "new construction".
Including these properties with what? They're going to appraise a brick house as having wood siding and as classify them as foreclosure from a charitable home builder that hadn't foreclosed?
None of this makes any sense.
Have you ever seen a Uniform Appraisal Report? It's based on however many comparable properties the lender requests. They take the comparables and apply a formula to come up with the subject property's value.
What he's saying is, the lenders are changing their standards on what type of properties they will accept as "comps", and that this will result in appraisals coming in lower now than they used to. Which, in turn, will make it harder to sustain high sales prices in the market.
QuoteHave you ever seen a Uniform Appraisal Report? It's based on however many comparable properties the lender requests. They take the comparables and apply a formula to come up with the subject property's value.
What he's saying is, the lenders are changing their standards on what type of properties they will accept as "comps", and that this will result in appraisals coming in lower now than they used to. Which, in turn, will make it harder to sustain high sales prices in the market.
That clears things up a little... but why would they appraise a home that is made of brick and list it as wood siding?
Also, what if the whole block is Operation New Hope houses, wouldn't they be included as the "comps"?
well, well, I just happened to buy an ONH from Tom back in Dec 2007. I was very pleased with the house and the work that was done. They went all out with amenities for the house. I don't remember there being any income limit when I purchased mine, other than going through the city's affordable housing program. My home was a lot more than 150k. Guess, I missed out on the great deals! These ONH can really do wonders to bring young professionals into the neighborhood. There was no way I could have afforded a SRG or done a restoration on an older home. ONH gave the opportunity to own a home in Springfield. I have been following with inteerest the discussion on the SPAR message boards.
Fsujax, there is room for ONH in Springfield. As you mentioned, everybody can't afford to pay +$200k for housing. The neighborhood benefits from having a little diversity. To be honest, I'm more concerned with the number of buildings that continue to come down in the historic district.
me too, Lake! I hate seeing the older homes torn down.
i'm not.
some would take way too much $$$ to rehab, which few are willing to do....especially now.
Quotei'm not.
some would take way too much $$$ to rehab, which few are willing to do....especially now.
ONH is also building designs are modeled after the old homes. Craftsmans Bungalows etc.
The home listed for sale in this thread looks just like all the rehabs I've seen.
Quotei'm not.
some would take way too much $$$ to rehab, which few are willing to do....especially now.
That could be an argument if it were not a national historic district. They were falling a long time before the market turned sour. You would never see the things people get away with here, in a city like Savannah or Charleston. I wonder, if things don't change, will we ever get to a point where we'll lose the "historic" designation?
Someone asked whether I've looked in Riverside. I have, and I've seen some homes with features similar to what we like in the Springfield homes (2 stories, "old fashioned" floor plans, not built in the 1970s or 80s, etc). Of course, price is an issue, and homes in Riverside are also on the expensive side.
Living in Florida isn't helping. I have a friend whose annual salary is pretty close to mine who just bought a house in Greenville, SC. Huge two story house, five acres of land, for under $250K.
We'll find something eventually...
What hood in Greenville? I'm from there originally and know the town quite well.
Quote from: fsu813 on March 26, 2009, 12:38:35 PMi'm not. some would take way too much $$$ to rehab, which few are willing to do....especially now.
Then what's the sense in this being a historic district? ::)
Historic districts are fodder for expensive contractors. RAP is bad news for people who have to fix windows and doors to homes that are 60, 70 and 80 years old. No one needs that garbage! If RAP voted to be added, I doubt it would pass. As it is, only about 300 households are members out of more than 3,000 in the Riverside/Avondale area. It is a complete waste of time and resources and should be taken out back and shot.
QuoteWe hate to spend a ton of money for a tiny house in San Marco or Avondale, and those places have all become yuppiefied. At the same time, we don't want to live in a ghetto... Help!
And Springfield solves this for you? I guess you live in the safe zone of Springfield, where the rocks thrown at glass houses never break??? Avondale and San Marco thank you for spending money at the restaurants and driving back to Springfield. How is 9th and Main again????
Springfield isn't a high crime area, at least the historic area isn't. Many residents have already spoken up to say that they feel safe here. Crime is everywhere, and yes, there's some in Springfield...but it's certainly not as bad as some would have you believe.