Ok, A lot of discussion has already been expended on the idea of retail clustering, which hopefully brings everyone up to date. (it has been two long years of explaining it after all)
Here is the proposal to take it to the next step:
A conference or an invited presentation with the Schneiders (Loop Restaurant, Bistro Aix), Karin Tucker (Biscotti's), The Davis's (Winn Dixie), Marvin (the local Franchise owner of CiCi's Pizza), Moon River Pizza, Jonathan Insetta (who owns Chew, Orsay etc) Mark the owner of Marks and Dive Bar, Jason Grimes and Ryan Rummell, (owners of TSI) Peter the president of Peterbrooke's, Ian Ranne the owner of Shanty Town, and Diane Whitten, (the owner of Uncommon Grounds). Put them in the same room with a group of landowners (say Petra, Kevin Gay, and Jack and Mack) and present a proposal to create one massive clustering project designed to bring in all of their various constituents simultaneously?
This is the ideal time to do it.
The landowners need to make huge concessions for the next two years (the properties will be vacant anyways otherwise), the residents need to make niceness guarantees and everyone needs to pull together.
In two years Main Street will be a mecca.
If this happens between Downtown through 8TH and Main, just add STREETCAR for an incredible economic boom.
If anyone care's I'd be glad to come over and speak to any of these folks on what COULD HAPPEN if we could just get PEYTON and the CITY COUNCIL not to kill mass transit with road funding.
Can you imagine a true gas-lamp style Main Street with all these cool venues along it?
WOW!
OCKLAWAHA
I would attend!
I
I'd attend as well.
Sounds like something worth pursuing that has not been tried locally (at least to my knowledge). If we can get the landowners (or at least a couple) on board, this is the right time to make this type of move.
So I was doing a bit of cleaning out of my room, and I found a couple toy trolley's in a box. I didn't throw 'em away, and I have one that is from San Francisco I know for sure. It say's Powell & Mason Sts, with 4 on the front, and San Francisco Municipal Railway on the side. The other one is green and looks more like the abandoned rail car someone took pictures of awhile back. It has bars on it that would connect to lines, and says Desire St. on the side. They were both made in China.
I have been staring at these two rail cars, and picturing how different Jacksonville could be with that implemented, and Ock, it's starting to get in my blood! Just thought I'd share that hear, turns out my Grandmother was trying to tell me something when she gave them to me as a kid :)
Edit: I took pictures
(http://i43.tinypic.com/nyb3vm.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/de74fq.jpg)
Hopefully all of the businesses won't have to move what they already have.
deathstar, is that a Star Wars museum on the streetcar line? I am intrigued.
What a great idea! Maybe the venue could be the football stadium. They must have awesome conference rooms there.
I think this is a pretty solid idea, but for it to work several things must happen. A decent buy in from the land owners, with not just competitive, but blockbuster rates for the first 5 years (at least). Most of the properties are under-rented, or not rented at all it should be a simple matter of logic for them. With some rent (rather than none) and a successful business that will increase the marketability of their other properties would seem like a no-brainer.
Second, buy in from the businesses. Now is not exactly a time more businesses are going to be willing to expand, but if they are able to get block buster rates, the assurance of a big PR effort by the community, (SAMBA, SPAR, ect), it might create a buzz, even in a down economy.
Other land owners that need to be talked to are Cesery, as well as Valparo. 3rd and Main has some density now that 3rd and main is going in. With clustering at 1st and Main (Pearl and the possibly open Horne Building) 3rd and Main. Shanty and the Mediterranean food place opening at 6th and Main, and possibly the old Epicurean, Chans, and the small commercial building next to the detailers at 5th and Main, and then the existing buildings between 7th-8th.
Even without a streetcar plan, this kinda of simultaneous buy in would go a long way to helping with a successful plan.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/30/36352440_b186bf5ecc.jpg)
New Orleans to be sure, but did you know we taught them how to make it beautiful? On Main Street!
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Doccuments%20Reports/StreetcarEconomicImpactHERITAGE.gif)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Doccuments%20Reports/StreetcarRidershipHERITAGE.gif)
I'll let my nuimbers do the talking for having a plan and not backing off - Like going into year 28 for me!
I recall a DI Marine who used the old movie line on us Squids.
"What do you do if your surrounded by 500 enemy soldiers?"
TRUST ME, THERE IS ONLY ONE RIGHT ANSWER!
"KILL THEM ALL...!"
Going at North Main and not playing on the history of Jacksonville Traction's "Worlds Most Beautiful Streetcar Line" would be like washing your hands with gloves on. You'll raise a bunch of folks bubbles but you won't clean up a damn thing!
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/lightningandTRACTION-1-1.jpg)
I believe this clustering suggestion and the streetcar situation are two different issues. With or without the streetcar, this is a short term strategy that can be put into effect immediately. If something like this can be successfully pulled off, if and when a streetcar comes down the line, it will be like hitting the jackpot twice.
I don't know. I don't totally agree. What makes all these succesfull places work is where they are now and the neighborhoods they are in. I know that's the reason I visit them. Where would this land mass be and why would I want to leave my "island" to go there?
This is why we need to restore the historic, landscaped, streetcar... and go OVER THE TOP with all of it, heritage cars, poles, stops, landscape etc...
I agree that they are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, but they shouldn't be:
I've lived in Jacksonville on and off forever, but the first thing that comes to mind when I hear Springfield is:
CRIME
GHETTO
GUN SHOTS
Even though I know that I know this is no longer true, I'm even looking at property there... But still the knee jerk reaction of the last 40-50 years stays with me. If Springfield doesn't do something to blow through the long, long, years of being near the bottom of the City's burbs, then no one is coming to your cluster.
Springfield won't see success with a cluster of what every suburban spot already has. Springfield needs a LANDING (that functinos), but we already have one. Springfield needs a Disney World, but we have one of those down south. The Streetcar would be the draw.
It's an ugly comment, I don't mean to be insulting to my many friends who have beautiful homes in this grand old neighborhood, but we must admit, reputations are hard to shake.
OCKLAWAHA
Springfield should not want what every suburban neighborhood has. Its also not about turning the district into a tourist attraction. The goal is to create a vibrant commercial corridor in the short term. The Clustering meeting suggestion is about getting your land/building owners together in the same room with some of the city's most successful urban core business owners. The goal would be that discussion from such an event would lead to the creation of a vibrant commerical corridor with filled storefronts.
Filling storefronts on Main don't require installing tracks, JTA, city council or FDOT approval to get off the ground. The storefronts are already there and there are people who would like to operate in the area. The key is finding a way to eliminate/solve the issues that stop them from coming.
My advise would be to keep things simple with a long range plan in mind. Directly tying a leasing strategy together with the streetcar fight will only delay the goal of short term improvement. However, this does not mean that adding a streetcar line in the area is not noteworthy or worth pursuing.
Agreed Lake. The housing in Springfield has succeeded despite the issues listed by OCK, as well as lackluster retail options. If you could get simultaneous buy in you would jump one of the last major hurdles. I do believe that simultaneous is the key.
Perhaps in addition to the suggested meeting between land holders and potential retailers, we could have a neighborhood townhall or meet and greet with the same groups of people. If there is one thing Springfield has no lack of, its passion. a few hundred Springfielders in a room full of the above mentioned might get some of the right elbows rubbed so that there is not just neighborhood support, but neighborhood buy in as well.
Well, well, looks like I woke up somebody! (It's okay, I'm always a smart ass).
Every orchestra needs a CONDUCTOR, Every bonding agent need a catalyst.
and I think y'all still don't get my point.
Phasing the Streetcar into a plan is fine with me, but I think it ought to be there (even if on paper and photos) when the $$ walks through that meeting room door.
My wife is a beach bum, she loves this area of town. What if you get every Olive Garden, Winn Dixie, or CVS boss in the Country down at that meeting? What if they all forego building the usual and developing unique "Winn Dixie 1920" or "Olive's Restaurants", is SHE going to want to go? NOPE! Got Buckets, Got Singletons, Got COLOMBIAN...
DON'T NEED SPRINGFIELD.
Even if Boomtown were to reopen, friendship would bring us down there, but NOT Springfield alone. You still need the FLASH to go with the BOOM!
I'm willing to host the STREETCAR sideshow in ring 3, if this is what it takes.
OCKLAWAHA
(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images02/sea-lrt-stc-openday-crowd-swarming-car-20071212_Seattle-Bon-Vivant.jpg)
(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/tampa-crowds-streetcars.jpg)
(http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2008/08/04/ba-nevius05_ph2_0498876015.jpg)
(http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews/2008/02/large_streetcar1_022408.jpg)
SPRINGFIELD? Your ride is here!
OCKLAWAHA
^^Ock, still two different issues that should not be lumped together in order to move forward. The goal isn't to figure out how to attract Southside residents to shop, eat or hang out at chain stores on Main Street. Its to find a short term solution (ie. within a year) to filling existing available storefronts in a clustered manner that leads to the creation of a district. This calls for solving issues like leasing rates, joint marketing, tenant buildout, building maintenance, etc. While they can complement each other, these are things that should not be dependent on the prospects of a streetcar running down Main.
For example, Uncommon Grounds is interested in opening in Springfield. However, the process to find a viable spot has been difficult. Although a streetcar will draw more customers to the area, a line down Main in a couple of years won't solve their problem of finding a suitable location within the next three months.
I agree. You just don't want the push for one to endanger or delay the efforts of the other. All of these things can become reality, if orchestrated properly.
I would even argue that a streetcar would inflate the sense of value in the owners even more, and they would expect even more unreasonable rates. the lynch pin for it all is having successful local establishments. If you do this before a street car, it would help ensure that the street car is successful beyond anything JTA has done before. It would feed unto itself, and help make new development for the multiple empty lots viable.
All of you make great points, but I think if I were doing things I would start with the streetcar system first. I would run lines up Main street and also down Park street via an extension of the proposed Bay Street Station. I know this sounds generic but I beleive if we could look at Tampas model we would have 2 more great entertainment districts in Springfield and Brooklyn. Just a thought. Hope everyone had a great holiday.
The streetcar would make Main St special again. this can happen regardless of that.
(http://www.cooltownstudios.com/images/streetcar-portland.jpg)
QuoteI would even argue that a streetcar would inflate the sense of value in the owners even more, and they would expect even more unreasonable rates. the lynch pin for it all is having successful local establishments
.
Now this is funny, all the discussion is quite healthy. Yes, I understand the need to get the locals into the vacant storefronts ASAP. Don't know that it will happen outside of some sort of summit meeting as we have discussed.
Downtown Parks brought up a VERY real danger with the streetcar's popularity with the public. Bourbon Street in New Orleans, is no longer Bourbon Street - nor has it been for many years prior to Katrina. It was SO POPULAR, the high rents and big chains moved in and kicked out all of the locals. All that is left is a Disney World "copy" of Old New Orleans. It's been quite awhile since I crawled out the door of "YOUR FATHERS MUSTACHE," and I'm not even sure you could find it today. Even if you do, it's owned by "TGI Fridays" or some such pish.
So meet and cluster today, and tomorrow the streetcar shows up (probably under a new mayor or a private company) and out go the locals.
I really think that done in the original style that our streetcar would be bigger then Tampa, Memphis, or Little Rock's, efforts. Done to our own unique heritage it would blow away the others and quickly become a prime site in the whole WORLD for the 4-5 Million rail and transit buffs.
Imagine I'm on a road trip from Jersey City to Disney and I've hounded the wife about the magic of the Jacksonville Traction Company's Main Street line for 5 months. Ahh, but we arrive at the wrong time of night and the wife wants to push on. DAMN! I convince her to stay at the Best Western at JTB and 95 South, praying she gives a little in the morning. Meanwhile the kids are bouncing on the next bed yelling "MICKEY"!
A quick breakfast, a kiss, and she unloads that I have 30 minutes to see that darn streetcar.
I fly out the door with a camera, recorder, and system brochure from the lobby. Do I go to the modern Water Street copy of Memphis, or Little Rock? Do I go to the same in 5-Points? OR? Do I go to MAIN STREET where "THE MOST BEAUTIFUL STREETCAR LINE IN THE WORLD" has been reborn on the original route? DUH.
I also don't believe that the streetcar and the Clustering are one and the same, or even have similar goals. They don't need to be tied together for success in 6 months or a year or two...but...
What I do believe and defend with passion is that ANYONE not informed about the history of the PINE STREET RAILWAY, nee MAIN STREET RAILWAY, nee JACKSONVILLE ELECTRIC CO, nee JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANY'S worlds most beautiful streetcar line, should be told at this meeting. They should know this is more then a dream. It is a real study, with real numbers, and real estimates already in hand. This is something they can get behind after they do their thing on the block. Then we'll kick things into high gear. This is the something that every "MALL" or "BIG BOX" retailer dreams of, an instant magnet to my front door.
For this reason, as I said, plan your meeting, and if you still want, I'll kick in a "sideshow" on the Streetcar line that showed the world what Jacksonville was made of. Bottom line, I need you all... but you need STREETCARS or DISNEY WORLD to go over the top, and the mouse is spoken for.
It has been said that Southrons NEVER consider the odds when entering a battle...I'm on year 28 and counting. OCKLAWAHA
Wow Ock, that New Orleans streetcar is absolutely the scaled model I have, I figured you'd know lol. My Grandmother loves trains and railway, she was born in Germany, and has taken many a trips on trains in her lifetime. My Grandfather was in the Army, and he himself is a fan of the railway too.
I showed him this website, and pictures of what Jacksonville used to look like, since he's a West Virginia Native. The one thing that really made his eyes pop, were the pictures of Main Street with a railcar.
"THAT'S WHAT THOSE TRACKS WERE THERE FOR!!!! THOSE DUMBASSES TOOK THAT OUT?!?!?!?!"
All the while I'm sitting there with a big grin on my face :D
Stephen, it is a great idea. It needs a name.
I think everyone, basically, wants the same thing...and should be able to find some common ground.
The issue of putting all of said types of venues together is the lack of variety (despite the variety of what they represent). You'd end up with a "mall" version of independently owned businesses... and malls... well, kind of suck. Maybe put them in a square with a park in the middle... (like, buy out the building surrounding Memorial Park, or build something around a large park somewhere else). Throw in some form of museum or place to make something... or some kind of culinary classes at said restaurants/bars or wine-classes or interesting things that don't involve simply sitting around consuming food/alcohol for the entire time that the venue could potentially be open.
It's great to go out to Bay Street and have 4 different venues with a different mix of crowds and music and types of alcohol... but all 4 venues still offer only one thing, really - a place to party.
I suggest, that if all the places you suggested ended up in one massive cluster, that the owners get creative lest the cluster become dull (despite having a very robust, ever changing menu) because the only thing to do there is spend money on excess experience...
(Honestly, how awesome would it be if one of the great restaurants around here had competitive weekly cooking classes, or one the venues with a billion different types of beer had some kind of way to actually learn about the various types of beer without getting outrageously smashed every night, or hell, even music seminar type nights where one could actually learn the roots to said popular song, or perhaps some other way for patrons to get something more out of a restaurant or bar that relates to the food/alcohol/music... or maybe I'm going way off track here).