Metro Jacksonville

BRT on Boulevard, competing commuter rail plans, ralis and trails vs. rails to trails, and urban connectivity through public transit. This is a working group for the tranist issues that concern Springfield and the transit plans that Springfielders would like to see SPAR support.

Same working group rules apply: keep to issues and be civil.

With the introduction of the BRT line on Boulevard, SPAR and SPR residents should ask JTA to get all or some parallel bus traffic moved off of Pearl. This does not create a significant hardship on bus riders and can be done at little cost to JTA.

See the MetroJacksonville article and comments here at http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/945/116/ (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/945/116/). 

Thoughts from those on Pearl?

I, for one, would not like any bus stops moved off of Pearl.  The Pearl route and stops are very important for our guys at Home Away From Home who live on Pearl street and depend on the bus to get to work as very few of them drive.  I would imagine there are many in the neighborhood who need the bus service.  While walking a block or two may not seem like a big deal, it is a big deal when it is cold and dark outside. 

A simple signal controlled busway link, alongside the "S" line railroad rebuild, running between Moncrief and Main would do wonders to funnel traffic onto and off of the new BRT line. It would also open several doors to our future:

Refer to the maps in the MJ article:

1. Opens up a possible BRT line on Moncrief into the far NW of the City.

2. Opens up a possible link to Kings and hence New Kings into the far NW of the City.

3. Creates a cut-off for Panama Park/Phoenix/Dunn/Ocenway bus routes to move off of Main onto the busway.

4. Opens the opportunity for a multi-modal station at Boulvard and the new "S" railroad/BRT way.

Fanning out from such terminals as this, and a similar one at Gateway Mall and another at 21ST and the Railroad, it's easy to see how the longer bus routes could be reduced to local circulators with much more frequent headways - and cross the platform transfers to rail or BRT.  

OCKLAWAHA

Please remember that there are indeed a good number of people who reside in Springfield that need the buses for everyday transportation.  What may seem like a minor change in a bus route can be a major time issue for those who need those buses.  It isn't just about not having a bus stop at the corner of Pearl and 6th, for instance, but the domino effect that change may have that often hurts the most.

Another note that should be pointed out is that there is no rail vs. BRT argument along the North Corridor anymore.  JTA's new BRT route down Boulevard actually complements rail along the S-Line corridor.  However what really needs to be examined is how Springfield's commercial revitalization plans will fit in with JTA's plans.  For example, do most Springfield advocates even know the actual timeline of JTA's plans or planned station locations in the neighborhood for both systems?  Any planning of commercial strategies along 8th & Main should incorporate this information because they will ultimately affect travel and development patterns throughout the neighborhood. 

I agree that many use buses and that better bus service is a benefit for all. However, a 4 block span between bus routes (Main to Blvd.) is a fairly small area by most urban standards.

Is the most used in SPR on that route at 8th and Pearl? If so, it may be possible to run the bus up Blvd up to 8th then cut over (but the median there may pose a problem).

If the Pearl routes have stops on the residential blocks that are well used by the neighborhood, then that's certainly a perspective that both JTA and SPAR need to hear.

Lakelander's points are excellent. We all need to make sure that our neighborhood advocates are thinking long term.

8th and Pearl is certainly an important stop. 

Geez.  It is tough enough for these lower income people to get and keep jobs in this economy.   For God's sakes, please don't mess with the bus stops and make it even more difficult to get to and from work. 

If buses can be replaced by something, why not? I would jump at an opportunity to see Springfield become a trolley car suburb again. If you had accessibility on 8th, Main, and either Pearl, Blvd, or Jefferson, you are always within a few blocks of a stop.

Would trolleys travel like the buses? 

I will be honest with you.  I don't know that much about the bus lines, although I promise myself all of the time, to ride them and learn them.  They are such a life-line to those who don't drive.

I've been told that if you want to go to River City Mall from Joseph's Pizza on Main that you would have to travel all the way back down to the central station near FCCJ and then travel back up that way. 

Often times, you cannot get to "that place" from "here". 

My fear is that if the bus routes are messed with, things will just get more difficult. 

The idea is to make it easier, there by more usable for everyone, not just those who have to ride. If I could hop a streetcar with the family for a tree lighting at the landing, I would do it 100 times over. As it sits, I would never take the bus. Most people would drive, even from Springfield. Personally, I would sooner walk to the Skyway, than the bus.

Why don't you want to use the bus?  How would the trolley be any different?

Is it a safety issue?  A cleanliness issue?  Are the buses too slow? 

How would the trolleys, essentially, be different from the buses?

Don't get me wrong.  I think they are cool.  I'm just trying to understand.

JTA's current system is totally unreliable.  This turns many residents who have an option of using mass transit or personal transit away.  Worldwide, most are attracted to mass transit modes with fixed routes because:

A. You know exactly where they are going to go.
B. You know exactly when they will arrive at each stop.
C. Most modes of transit with fixed routes are more comfortable.

I know from listening to stories-- especially on the weekend, you can get left behind.  That is hardly comfortable.  So, it stands to reason, that the only ones who ride the buses, are those without any other option.  So another mass transit mode that is more reliable makes total sense.  As long as it is still able to be used to get to work places at a reasonable price.

We need to help people get to work, especially now, when jobs are so hard to come by.

A better mass transit system benefits everyone.

Fixed lines also spur long-term growth. Transit oriented and transit adjacent developments favor fixed routes. However, part of Jacksonville's overall transit strategy will need to include BRT to help connect some parts of the city to commuter rail lines. Both BRT and possible commuter rail plans are likely to touch Springfield's borders and affect neighborhood development. The time for advocacy on these types of issues is before the first dollar is spent on rerouting or road/rail improvements.

For a brief MetroJacksonville overview of BRT/rail issues and proposals in JAX:

How to Love BRT (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/932/116/")

Transit in Jacksonville: Let's Get Started! (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/884/116/)

Commuter Rail Study Update (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/870/116/)

Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/835/116/)

Commuter Rail Preliminary Study Locations (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/823/116/)

MetroJacksonville and JTA on the Same Page? (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/727/116/)

thanks JBD.  I do need to educate myself on this.

Quote from: JaxByDefault on December 08, 2008, 10:31:10 PMIs the most used in SPR on that route at 8th and Pearl? If so, it may be possible to run the bus up Blvd up to 8th then cut over (but the median there may pose a problem).

Concrete saw and a bobcat would fix that.

Re: why buses suck. JTA is no different from CCTA in Vermont. I used that one when my car broke down. Crappy schedules that were never right, dirty interiors, routes that meandered every place you didn't need to go...it took longer to get to my destination than if I had just walked. Which I finally decided to do through the 4-foot snow drifts and sub-zero temperatures (why Sonny...in my day!...).

If I had no transportation and needed to get to work I would use JTA. But if they are looking to increase riders from the middle-class segments they need some serious improvements.

Phil

Not to stir anything up, but just to try to put some things in perspective.  On this and other forums, people complained that it was inconvenient to walk two blocks to cross Main Street.  That is the most "out of their way" anyone would have to walk to cross at the current four blocks between cross walks.  Here in this discussion, it is OK to have people walk up to four blocks to get the bus they need to go to work.  So, if the wrong bus routes are changed, someone living on Main Street now could have to walk four blocks or more in the wee hours of the morning to catch a bus, ride for an hour, work for ten hours digging a ditch for minimum wage and then ride back an hour to walk four blocks to get home.  Sounds like fun, doesn't it?

When talking about mass transit, it isn’t just about making it convenient to get to the Landing for fireworks, or to get to Shands even, it is mostly about those hard working people who must ride the bus lines just to make a buck.  Two blocks can and does make a difference.  I would think getting the riders on board to party at the Landing and getting people to work are both important to generate a revenue stream and keep costs down, but one can not be sacrificed for the other.

This is why its important for local neighborhood advocates to attend JTA's meetings.  I attend most of their BRT and commuter rail meetings and I have rarely seen anyone from Springfield at them.  Without proper representation, the neighborhood could easily end up with a plan that does not work for the community's residents or jive with SPAR's commercial revitalization plans. 

In the beginning, the same happened with Downtown, until this site started going after them.  Once people realized what was actually being proposed down Adams Street, they finally came out and jumped on board.  When the JEDC and Downtown Vision saw this, they followed suit.  Now we have a plan that's millions of dollars cheaper that won't negatively impact the Northbank core.

Springfield needs to do this as well with the commuter rail and BRT proposals.  For example, what locations would be best for stops along these routes?  How will these stops fit into Springfield's plans for commercial and retail development along these corridors?  Unfortunately, the planning process for these answers and solutions is happening at meetings where neighborhood representatives (outside of Metro Jacksonville) continue not to show up at.

I know I'm being selfish but I don't want any stinking BRT on Boulevard. Here is my very self-centered letter to SPAR:

QuoteAt last night's general meeting, Jennifer Holbrook stated that we as residents needed to contact the SPAR office to let them know how we felt about the BRT so that SPAR Council could take a stand.

I vehemently oppose and disapprove of BRT on Boulevard. Our home is 1 block off of Boulevard and I already hear the noise from buses. Our old houses do not nor should they have insulated windows that keep the sounds out. I hear the announcements already from the buses that run until midnight. I certainly do not want 8 double buses running every 15 minutes making even more noise not to mention all the extra air pollution and dirt they'll provide. My porches will be rendered useless as there will be no joy left in sitting on them. Imagine how the residents who have homes on Boulevard will feel?

I understand these are to be diesel buses? How unpleasant the greenway park system will be to use when the constant smell of diesel fills the air. We are trying to make McPherson more usable by Shands employees, Schell into a skate plaza as well as improvements to the basketball courts. Why waste the money when there will be no fresh air available???

This is another boneheaded idea by JTA and the city. The residents of Springfield shouldn't have to suffer for their lack of original thinking.

PLEASE, I beg of SPAR Council to take a strong stance against this decision.

And the quick response:

QuoteThis will be on the Agenda for Monday night, And I will have a draft letter written to JTA which expresses yours, and others concerns.

FYI, on Boulevard, JTA proposes to have buses running on that street every 10 minutes.  Their goal is to have a major bus route through the Northside that is reliable with frequent service.  At this point, its unknown whether buses will run mixed with traffic or if they'll propose replacing parallel parking lanes with bus only lanes.  The Springfield stop will be at 8th & Blvd.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7841-brt-north-corridor-a.jpg)

Every 10 minutes, even better.

How about using Davis or wiping out Lincoln Court (a benefit to almost everyone) and opening Jefferson up all the way through or at least cutting over to Boulevard when it is no longer residential?

Quote from: sheclown on December 09, 2008, 12:01:55 AM
Why don't you want to use the bus?  How would the trolley be any different?

Is it a safety issue?  A cleanliness issue?  Are the buses too slow? 

How would the trolleys, essentially, be different from the buses?

Don't get me wrong.  I think they are cool.  I'm just trying to understand.

Sheclown: Buses have a certain stigma attached to them that isn't really deserved. There have been hundreds of studies on why people don't like the bus. Answers range from "who rode the short bus in school" to "buses killed trolleys". No one really knows. I think there is a certain spillover effect from the Civil Rights era, a sort of "back of the bus mentality" which makes certain whites uncomfortable and certain black folks a sour memory. There was also a time when Trailways and Greyhound had no restrooms and a bus trip could be VERY trying, perhaps this lingers? Lastly buses stink, unless they run with trolley overhead power, many hate the smell.

Trolleys Bus or Streetcars draw more patrons, it is believed for several reasons.
1. a much larger vehicle with much more room
2. nostalgia
3. a positive fixed guideway - route (no guess work on where it goes)
4. a heavier vehicle with a much superior ride (like a train)
5. a safety record for passengers that is WAY above buses.
6. ability to run on private railroad track at much higher speeds then a city bus.
7. ability to mix into traffic like a city bus
8. ability to run in a subway like a major city heavy rail system
9. ability to run on an elevated "skyway like" rail line
10. Pollution free - it's electric and nearly silent.

Hope this helps.
OCKLAWAHA

Would be cool to see Streetcar take over from the 8Th Street-Shands station SOUTH into downtown. That would relieve a bunch more buses to do the work in the burbs and thus schedules could be kept much closer and tighter.

There IS A JTA STREETCAR STUDY, so why doesn't Springfield jump on this and ride it home?

OCLAWAHA

SPAR has a working relationship with a transportation planner at JTA, as well as with the head of the dept, Scott Clem. Both have been at SPAR's offices previously to discuss the trolley proposal (which was denied by FDOT) and the streetcar feasibility study (which has been put on hold by JTA for budgetary reasons).

I am in agreement that BRT should not run on Boulevard, but believe it should be moved to Jefferson (or am open to hearing other options). My reasoning is two-fold:

1. An every-10 minute rapid busway will bisect the neighborhood from its park system which is moving toward master planning and revitalization. Imagine the safety of crossing the street to the park system at 5th and Boulevard if rapid busways are zipping through the curve just south of it.

2. I sympathize with my Boulevard neighbors in that, if I were a resident living on Boulevard, I wouldn't want it zooming by in front of my front porch either.

With a Jefferson St. solution, residents will have safer, more integrated access to the park system. The major employers in the area are still served, and the route is still close enough to parks that people from outlying areas may find it easy to visit and enjoy our park system/Historic District/8th St commercial corridor.

The Jefferson Street alternative makes sense.  It runs in the heart of the medical campus, right by the proposed VA clinic site and ties in to JTA's plans for BRT down Jefferson Street through LaVilla.

Jefferson street would make sense since the VA will be on jefferson, as well as easier access to Shands. The only problem being, Jefferson isnt a through Street. Davis is the only through street on that side, and then you are almost right back to the original BRT path.

I am still dead set against BRT for the north side. there are so many better options, and I refuse to settle for more buses.

You would have to cut the BRT path back over to Blvd, along 8th or 10th. 

Another idea may be to run BRT down State & Union, then up Main, to 8th and then north along Blvd.  Its a little longer but it improves bus service along 8th & Main Streets, ties into the Rosa Parks bus/skyway terminal while still serving FCCJ and Shands.  It could also result in BRT money funding the two-way conversion of Main, between State & Union and enhanced lighting/streetscaping on Main between State & 1st Streets.

Why not Main to Tallulah?

QuoteJefferson isnt a through Street.

do you mean north of 8th, or b/w state and 1st? if north of 8th, then just use 8th or 10th to cut back over to davis as lake suggests.

Quotethen up Main, to 8th and then north along Blvd

lake, confused by this part of your post. if you run it up main to 8th, which i would not be in favor of any more than running it on adams downtown, then how can you go north along blvd? did you mean north of 8th?

Yellow = BRT route

Red = Commuter Rail corridor

State/Union to Main to 8th and back to North Boulevard
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/lrg-7841-brt-north-corridor-c.jpg)

Jefferson to 8th or 10th and back to North Boulevard
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/lrg-7841-brt-north-corridor-b.jpg)

State/Union to Main to S-Line ROW to get back to Lem Turner & Gateway
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/lrg-7841-brt-north-corridor-a.jpg)

Personally I like # 3 up Main. But what kind of effect does that have on the commercial corridor we hope to have thriving again? I really don't have the urban planning experience to know. # 2 up Jefferson then cutover on 10th W to Boulevard would be my 2nd choice. That at least misses the residential section of Boulevard.

Buses every ten minutes would bring the commercial corridor more traffic and visibility.  Those are two important ingredients for any commercial district if it wants to attract additional retail.  Fight hard enough and the transit authority could probably get grant money to bring additional infrastructure improvements to Springfield as a part of such a plan as well. 

QuoteBuses every ten minutes would bring the commercial corridor more traffic and visibility.  Those are two important ingredients for any commercial district if it wants to attract additional retail.

I disagree with this, as there is already some commercial density Main and 8th with a great potential for more (with existing strategies and hopefully some lending relief in the near future).

Was BRT killing pedestrian-friendliness, and the potential for retail, exactly the point used to argue against BRT on Adams? Here are a few metrojacksonville.com tidbits as a reminder:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/388/92/ (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/388/92/)

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/626/116/ (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/626/116/) This is a video every Springfield resident should see.

And here is a quote from article reviewing, among others, the comparable Minneapolis system...

QuoteThe casual observer would be amazed to learn that most Minneapolis residents despise the continuous stream of bus traffic flowing down the center of the district. A June 2, 2006 Star Tribune article describes the transit mall as “Everyone’s favorite place to eat and inhale exhaust fumes. A simple google search turns up many local blogs, such as Mnspeak.com (http://www.mnspeak.com/mnspeak/archive/post-1871.cfm ) and wowflutter.com (http://www.wowflutter.com/2006/11/05/is-nicollet-mall-overrated/) with posts demanding the nasty non-pedestrian buses be removed from the pedestrian mall.

According to Mayor R.T. Rybak’s Access Minneapolis presentation in November 2006, he mentioned that challenges facing the continued success of Nicollet include congestion of buses, and the noise and diesel fumes created by them.

Maybe you're thinking is that the parallel parking spaces will be a buffer from buses on the sidewalks of Main? Well they aren't now.

I think I'd like to have JTA go with the original idea of the trolley for Main, and pending feasibility study, streetcar. Imho, BRT does not belong on what will ultimately be a pedestrian-friendly Main St, and trolley and streetcar are a better fit with historic neighborhood character.

I don't think the BRT buses will be "zooming" down Boulevard - or any other street.  From what I remember about the North BRT presentation last month, they would be in mixed traffic.  So they wouldn't be going any faster than whatever traffic is out there now.  JTA did say that on Lem Turner, north of Trout River, where there is a painted out curb lane - they would use it as a bus only lane.  But, from what they said at the meeting, they wouldn't be taking any on-street parking (except downtown along Jefferson and Broad).

Doesnt that defeat the entire point of BRT? Isnt it supposed to be a form of rapid transit?

I think JTA is going for "more frequent" and "more reliable" - the latter by using stuff like special traffic signals that let buses get a head start when the light turns green.  To get the "rapid" of BRT, you need those hugely expensive bus-only roadways.

Why would they need to spend millions of dollars on that? They could re-work the existing buses for that. They wont pick up any new customers, but at least they wont be throwing our money down the drain either.

What JTA is proposing for Boulevard is not comparable to their initial plan for Adams St. downtown. Their new plan for Blvd is basically an improved express service that runs in existing lanes with car traffic, not true dedicated busway BRT. I have no idea why JTA is calling this project "BRT."

I'll admit, there are some good arguments for the idea of running express services on Main, especially if it could shift the costs of some corridor improvements to the transit budget. JTA running the express line on Main would bring project money for landscaping, lighting, bus stop maintenance, and converting the block of Main between State and Union to two-way traffic (a necessary small project for which the city is balking at a paltry 100k price tag). Would these benefits outweigh possible drawbacks?

I fail to see the drawbacks for decent bus service on a major street like Main.  There is a huge difference between dedicated busways, transit malls and dependable bus service. 

Our fight against JTA's original BRT plan may have impacted how people view BRT in general.  What JTA is currently proposing is nothing more than reliable bus service.  There is no comparison between reliable bus service for a commercial corridor such as Main to what we fought against with the Adams Street proposal.  The Adams Street plan involved converting the road into a transit mall reserved for only buses.  This is quite different from the city's main north/south federal highway benefitting from reliable bus service.

Here is a description of the various forms of "BRT" for better clarification:

What is BRT
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4020.0.html

Is the existing bus service on Main unreliable? If it is, is that testament to a requirement for better bus service just on Main, or is that a necessity throughout the city of Jax?

QuoteI'll admit, there are some good arguments for the idea of running express services on Main, especially if it could shift the costs of some corridor improvements to the transit budget. JTA running the express line on Main would bring project money for landscaping, lighting, bus stop maintenance, and converting the block of Main between State and Union to two-way traffic (a necessary small project for which the city is balking at a paltry 100k price tag). Would these benefits outweigh possible drawbacks?

It is my opinion that Springfield cannot completely rely on the city, any of its authorities or FDOT for funding, especially if the goal of the funding is landscaping or lighting - this was proven by the recent rejection of the trolley operational funding by FDOT, and continues to be proven by direction of stormwater funds and park improvement and maintenance funding to other areas of the city (Brooklyn, with effectively zero residents, though a history of private funding, political and corporate influence, vs Springfield with 4500+ residents, little private funding or political influence, and economic engines that also have some funding reliance on state and federal funding). Springfield is beginning to see more value in pursuing private funding and public-private partnerships for some projects rather than compromising just so funding may be found.

I do think COJ being unable to find $100k for the two-way conversion of Main b/w State and Union is absurd, but do not think a compromise to buses on Main to possibly see some funding for this would be helpful to the community overall (one step forward, two steps back?)

I would still prefer to see trolley, as it will go further in ensuring the character of Main is more consistent with the character of a National Historic District. If Springfield said "Fine, lets do buses on Main, just for a little bit of appearance funding" (the expectation of which, I see as questionable), what is the likelihood JTA would see the urgency (or even need) of Springfield's trolley or streetcar opportunities?

Finally, lets look at the bus stigma issue. Right or wrong, it's there, and Springfield has had enough stigmas to overcome as it is. For these reasons, as well as future park connectivity, BRT on Jefferson is where I stand...

Quote from: zoo on December 10, 2008, 07:42:29 AM
Is the existing bus service on Main unreliable? If it is, is that testament to a requirement for better bus service just on Main, or is that a necessity throughout the city of Jax?

JTA's plan is a part of a citywide plan.  Whether its Jefferson, Boulevard or Main, the North Corridor is expected to be a reliable transit route running from I-295 & Lem Turner Road to Downtown.    This is something the city does not have at this point.  Springfield just happens to be located between I-295 and Downtown.  Springfield should view this as an opportunity to improve a certain street through its borders.

QuoteIt is my opinion that Springfield cannot completely rely on the city, any of its authorities or FDOT for funding, especially if the goal of the funding is landscaping or lighting - this was proven by the recent rejection of the trolley operational funding by FDOT, and continues to be proven by direction of stormwater funds and park improvement and maintenance funding to other areas of the city (Brooklyn, with effectively zero residents, though a history of private funding, political and corporate influence, vs Springfield with 4500+ residents, little private funding or political influence, and economic engines that also have some funding reliance on state and federal funding). Springfield is beginning to see more value in pursuing private funding and public-private partnerships for some projects rather than compromising just so funding may be found.

Never look a gift horse in the mouth.  If JTA wants to spend money in the neighborhood, find a way to use it to the community's best advantage.  With that said, Springfield should not pigeon hole itself into either option.  One of the benefits of long term planning is you have various goals for your community already established.  When an opportunity for investment from either the private or public sector comes along, you'll be in the position to pounce on it.

QuoteI do think COJ being unable to find $100k for the two-way conversion of Main b/w State and Union is absurd, but do not think a compromise to buses on Main to possibly see some funding for this would be helpful to the community overall (one step forward, two steps back?)

Its not absurd, its just not a priority (ex. we can come up with $100 million to spend on the Mayor's road plan, $700k for the Main Street pocket park and an additional $148 million for the Jags).  As for the buses, they aren't going anywhere, regardless of whether BRT goes down Main or Blvd.  Again, JTA will spend millions somewhere on this BRT plan and whatever corridor it ends up on will see a significant amount of infrastructure investment.  What they end up with will be better than what they already have set up.  This is a chance for Springfield to get some things fixed up with someone else's money.

QuoteI would still prefer to see trolley, as it will go further in ensuring the character of Main is more consistent with the character of a National Historic District. If Springfield said "Fine, lets do buses on Main, just for a little bit of appearance funding" (the expectation of which, I see as questionable), what is the likelihood JTA would see the urgency (or even need) of Springfield's trolley or streetcar opportunities?

I think everyone is familiar with my position of trolleys and streetcars on Main.  There's no way in hell that FDOT will fund ripping up the investment they are making on Main right now to lay streetcar tracks.  While it would be nice, its just not realistic.  This is something I don't need JTA to tell me, its what I've experienced with several private sector projects throughout the State on FDOT maintained roads.  Streetcars on Main are just as realistic as the Mayor's plan to remove a lane off the Main Street Bridge for a large sidewalk and hotdog carts or Springfield's chance of having median cuts at every block.  In my years of working with FDOT, its difficult enough trying to gain access drives into projects, much less pushing a plan that, in their view, will limit the flow and capacity of traffic.

QuoteFinally, lets look at the bus stigma issue. Right or wrong, it's there, and Springfield has had enough stigmas to overcome as it is. For these reasons, as well as future park connectivity, BRT on Jefferson is where I stand...

Lets look at the bus stigma issue and add a stone cold fact to the situation.  This is that buses will not be leaving streets in Springfield, like Main or 8th.  The best way to deal with a stigma is to attempt to improve the service and quality of service your system has.  This is what the bus plan is all about.  Whether we like it or not, they are going to invest in improving a corridor throughout the Northside and it will be better than what they are currently running on our streets.  With that in mind, what are the corridors that we would like to see enhanced with someone else's money?  Are there improvements out there that we would like to see in the community that we have a problem finding funding for?  Do we have the possibility to get something funded by working with JTA?  Or do we say, thanks but no thanks, sending the money elsewhere while also eliminating the possibility of additional customer traffic in commercial areas already struggling?  These are the questions we have to ask ourselves when opportunities like this present themselves. 

I hate that it seems we are settling as BRT as a forgone conclusion.

Crap.

Springfield isn't turning away money. It's just not foolishly banking on it from local govt or related authorities in this fiscal climate. If COJ/JTA want to fund projects in the community, fine. However, I don't think the community should just sit back and accept what those entities propose just because they will buy us off with beautification, when that is often the smallest piece of the cost pie.

QuoteAre there improvements out there that we would like to see in the community that we have a problem finding funding for?

Yes, but this because we have advocated and waited for municipal or authority funding (and are still waiting for the Greenway to happen, the new infrastructure beneath Silver St, the trolley, additional paving/underground utilities in residential areas, park revitalization, Park View Inn demolition, etc.) Springfield has new funding mechanisms in place that could make a big difference in a lot of projects, including beautification on Main - it is important that Springfield use these to their fullest as urgently as possible.

QuoteDo we have the possibility to get something funded by working with JTA?

As I've said, I question this. Springfield worked with JTA on the trolley, and the operational service grant got denied in favor of 5 or so others JTA also submitted. JTA (acting as contractor?) completed 8th Street. But funding for that was through BJP, correct? New historically-themed bus stops were put in - if JTA found funding for this, I'll give them credit for this success. I just don't want Springfield to count on, or trade increased bus traffic on our soon-pedestrian-friendly corridor for, some unassured expectation of funding for smaller-cost beautification projects.

BRT on Jefferson is still my vote.

Main Street took Fifteen years to get started? It took a privately funded study to even get the ball rolling.  It took years of hard work.   If it wasn't for partnering with the city, the state and JEA, it would never have happened.  The historic sidewalks, parking at all, the pedestrian walk thoughs that are there, the planted medians instead of solid concrete are all the result of hard work and compromise. Is Main Street going to be perfectly ideal?  No.  But it is a huge improvement over not getting it done at all.

A trolley up Main would be truly cool.  I do, however, agree that seeing it anytime soon is somewhat impractical.  But if the folks that started on getting Main Street fifteen years ago thought that way and waited until it was practical, Main Street would be still a dream and a cracked and broken concrete reality.  Want the trolley?  Now is certainly the time to start working towards it.  

Wasn't there once trolleys up other streets as well?  Would it be more practical to run the trolley up a parallel street?  I don't know what would be best, but am simply trying to throw other ideas out there. What about Boulevard?  The parks on one side, a short walk to Main or a short (old fashioned looking and clean) bus ride to Main? Wouldn’t that promote commercial development between the hospital and Main?  Wouldn't that benefit everybody?   Wouldn’t that help make the Park System a destination for the whole city?  As we have been told that the buses would only be running a slow speed anyway, why couldn’t the trolley be part of that so called "BRT" system?  Even if it was initially (old fashioned looking and clean) buses, then converted?  Wouldn’t that make funding easier?  Have it serve two purposes? If the speed was the same and only one or two more strategic stops added, it may actually add a draw to the entire bus system?

QuoteA trolley up Main would be truly cool.  I do, however, agree that seeing it anytime soon is somewhat impractical.

Lol. Strider, I get a kick out of how, even when you agree with me, you hold fast to finding ways to disagree with me  ;). Until FDOT rejected JTA's operational grant recently, JTA's planned timing for implementing trolley on Main was less than 18 months out (Fall of 2009).

QuoteWant the trolley?  Now is certainly the time to start working towards it.

This is my disagreement with lake's premise, as well. I believe if Springfield agrees to increased bus traffic on Main (and probably on 8th, as well, as one of the key stops for this system is the medical complex area at Shands), JTA will have an excuse to not see a transit need for ANYTHING OTHER THAN BUS through Springfield ("We're serving that area with our new, increased bus service, so why do we need to keep exploring trolley or streetcar?")

Agreeing to increased bus service on Main will effectively be working AGAINST other transit options (maybe even S-line?), and in imo, doesn't optimally meet the needs of the major employer and compromises any progress being made to commercial improvement on Main.

Quote from: downtownparks on December 10, 2008, 08:45:36 AM
I hate that it seems we are settling as BRT as a forgone conclusion.

Crap.

Perhaps it would be better if we and JTA refer to this current North Corridor as "Rapid or Express" bus instead of BRT?  This is a completely different animal from the thing JTA originally came in the door with that included elevated dedicated busways paralleling rail, bus only transit malls through downtown and a lie that it could be a substitute for rail. 

The maps and presentations at the last JTA meeting I attended (I think only 7 residents came out during the two hour public dog and pony show session) show this is a different animal with a different price tag.

This thread shows that we were pretty effective poisoning the term "BRT" locally (I'm definately not complaining about this accomplishment).  However, for any rail plan to work, you need a decent bus system to go along with it.  With that said, since JTA is now proposing to use existing roads for this north corridor, I do wonder what's stoping them from simply redirecting routes to run some form of this service down these streets now.  Imo, this would be a pretty cheap way to evaluate it's success before sinking millions into signal and infrastructure upgrades.

QuoteI believe if Springfield agrees to increased bus traffic on Main (and probably on 8th, as well, as one of the key stops for this system is the medical complex area at Shands), JTA will have an excuse to not see a transit need for ANYTHING OTHER THAN BUS through Springfield ("We're serving that area with our new, increased bus service, so why do we need to keep exploring trolley or streetcar?")

QuoteAgreeing to increased bus service on Main will effectively be working AGAINST other transit options (maybe even S-line?)

Lake, did you have a professional opinion re: these observations?

I dont understand why this is even an issue then. It sounds like they are basically retreading the bus, and calling it something new.

We have buses in the neighborhood. In fact, back when Main St was being torn up from 1st to 4th, the buses temporarily moved on to Laura. They sucked. The entire house shook when they went by at 35 mph.

I don't have a good feeling about any of this. Put express buses on main commercial corridors, not on residential streets, and for the love of god stop calling it something new and different when it is really just a different shade of the same color.

Quote from: zoo on December 10, 2008, 09:26:54 AM
Springfield isn't turning away money. It's just not foolishly banking on it from local govt or related authorities in this fiscal climate. If COJ/JTA want to fund projects in the community, fine. However, I don't think the community should just sit back and accept what those entities propose just because they will buy us off with beautification, when that is often the smallest piece of the cost pie.

That's definately not what I'm advocating and I'm not endorsing any specific route as being better than the other.  My point is JTA has goals and federal funding to improve something that could benefit Springfield and the neighborhoods it provides access to.  Its to Springfield's benefit to become an active player in the planning process to make sure that the money invested in the area benefits the long term vision of the community.  With this in mind, if you have the opportunity to get some things done by working with JTA, take advantage of it. 

Also, when I say active I mean "poison the groundwater" active.  This means you have strong representation at ALL project meetings and planning sessions (even those outside of your neighborhood) pushing your agenda. 

Quote

QuoteAre there improvements out there that we would like to see in the community that we have a problem finding funding for?

Yes, but this because we have advocated and waited for municipal or authority funding (and are still waiting for the Greenway to happen, the new infrastructure beneath Silver St, the trolley, additional paving/underground utilities in residential areas, park revitalization, Park View Inn demolition, etc.) Springfield has new funding mechanisms in place that could make a big difference in a lot of projects, including beautification on Main - it is important that Springfield use these to their fullest as urgently as possible.

I think we're on the same page.  All I'm saying is don't favor one option over another, which has been done in the past as described in your response.  In this case, its okay to bring sand to the beach.

Quote

QuoteDo we have the possibility to get something funded by working with JTA?

As I've said, I question this. Springfield worked with JTA on the trolley, and the operational service grant got denied in favor of 5 or so others JTA also submitted. JTA (acting as contractor?) completed 8th Street. But funding for that was through BJP, correct? New historically-themed bus stops were put in - if JTA found funding for this, I'll give them credit for this success. I just don't want Springfield to count on, or trade increased bus traffic on our soon-pedestrian-friendly corridor for, some unassured expectation of funding for smaller-cost beautification projects.

BRT on Jefferson is still my vote.

Not having curb cuts on multiple blocks, bicycle lanes, a bad median landscape plan and no pedestrian warning signage are things that hurt the walkability of Main.  FDOT has been allowed to convert the street into a hybrid freeway.  Decent bus service on Main Street (a bus every 10 minutes) won't take away from the goal of making Main pedestrian friendly.  Unlike the Adams Street plan (buses every 90 seconds in a narrow corridor), regular big city bus service will most likely enhance commercial opportunities for a corridor like Main by bringing additional potential customers into the strip.

When I mention working with JTA to get additional things funded, I mean items that may not typically be associated with transit.  Think park improvements, streetscape enhancements, utility work, pedestrian signage, lighting, etc.  Working to get a fake trolley will birth only a fake trolley until funding runs out.  However, making JTA tie in their plans with things such as additional themed lighting, new sidewalks, utility lines or perhaps a joint station/Shands/park improvement development will have a lasting impact on the community.

Btw, the faux trolley are essentially the same idea as the concept of BRT.  Its trying to reduce the national stigma associated with buses by providing a more attractive, reliable service.  The major negative of both is when we use them in ways they were not intended to be used, such as a replacement for rail, which has been done in the past.  These things should be used to complement rail (ex. like the new Rapid/Express Bus Plan).

Quote from: zoo on December 10, 2008, 10:49:15 AM

QuoteI believe if Springfield agrees to increased bus traffic on Main (and probably on 8th, as well, as one of the key stops for this system is the medical complex area at Shands), JTA will have an excuse to not see a transit need for ANYTHING OTHER THAN BUS through Springfield ("We're serving that area with our new, increased bus service, so why do we need to keep exploring trolley or streetcar?")

QuoteAgreeing to increased bus service on Main will effectively be working AGAINST other transit options (maybe even S-line?)

Lake, did you have a professional opinion re: these observations?

My professional opinion says those who believe FDOT will allow streetcars on Main are wasting their time and valuable resources.  FDOT is in the business of moving cars as efficiently as they can.  This is why they have put medians in the middle of Main and a host of other streets throughout the State.  Imo, if you want to effectively make change, you simplify the issues.  Convincing FDOT to rip up the investment they are currently making to introduce something they will view as not improving vehicular flow falls in the category of complicating the issue.

In regards to the S-Line, I mentioned it before in an earlier post, that its best to view things from a bird's eye view.  The S-Line would become a part of a regional rail line connecting Jax with St. Augustine, Clay County and Fernandina Beach.  In terms of the S-Line's viability, what happens in Springfield at street level is insignificant.  It could tie directly into Shands, not stop in Springfield and still be a viable transit option for residents on their way to Imeson Industrial Park, the port, Airport and Shand's proposed North Campus.  In the S-line's case, its Springfield that should be lobbying to make sure they get a station since its been proven that rail brings billions in economic infill and development.

So to sum it up, for any mass transit system to work, it needs the other to complement it.  You can't have successful rail without decent bus service and you can't have buses set up to do what rail does.  In their current configuration, they complement each other.  Neither of these systems need Springfield to succeed.  Springfield needs to tap into them to benefit.   

Commuter rail study map:

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5959-jta-final-station03.png)

This gives one a bird's eye view of how the S-Line fits in with the commuter rail plan.  Springfield is represented with two dots (ex. Shands & Warehouse District).

Quote from: downtownparks on December 10, 2008, 10:55:23 AM
I dont understand why this is even an issue then. It sounds like they are basically retreading the bus, and calling it something new.

We have buses in the neighborhood. In fact, back when Main St was being torn up from 1st to 4th, the buses temporarily moved on to Laura. They sucked. The entire house shook when they went by at 35 mph.

I don't have a good feeling about any of this. Put express buses on main commercial corridors, not on residential streets, and for the love of god stop calling it something new and different when it is really just a different shade of the same color.

This will be a bus that makes limited stops between I-295 & Lem Turner Road and Downtown.  The price has been reduced because the dedicated busway option has been eliminated (which is a great thing).  The new grey buses you see driving down the streets today will most likely end up as the buses using this route.  They also plan to spend a little money on signals, modern bus stations, landscaping.    In other words if a bus is considered a pig, they're visiting Mary Kay for a few boxes of lipstick in the hopes she gets laid by someone who has had a few too many shots of Crowne Royal.  That's all it is.  So we do have to ask ourselves if it is best to have express buses on commercial corridors or residential streets?

Quote from: zoo on December 10, 2008, 09:57:02 AM

QuoteA trolley up Main would be truly cool.  I do, however, agree that seeing it anytime soon is somewhat impractical.

Lol. Strider, I get a kick out of how, even when you agree with me, you hold fast to finding ways to disagree with me  ;). Until FDOT rejected JTA's operational grant recently, JTA's planned timing for implementing trolley on Main was less than 18 months out (Fall of 2009).

QuoteWant the trolley?  Now is certainly the time to start working towards it.

This is my disagreement with lake's premise, as well. I believe if Springfield agrees to increased bus traffic on Main (and probably on 8th, as well, as one of the key stops for this system is the medical complex area at Shands), JTA will have an excuse to not see a transit need for ANYTHING OTHER THAN BUS through Springfield ("We're serving that area with our new, increased bus service, so why do we need to keep exploring trolley or streetcar?")

Agreeing to increased bus service on Main will effectively be working AGAINST other transit options (maybe even S-line?), and in imo, doesn't optimally meet the needs of the major employer and compromises any progress being made to commercial improvement on Main.

Considering the options on the table, why should pursuing a faux trolley down Main be viewed as a higher priority over commuter rail or rapid bus improvements?  The faux trolleys don't spur economic development, raise property values or enhance an area's image the way rail does.  They also don't provide better access throughout the region the way rapid bus improvements will?  As for real streetcars, its great if planned on local roads.  Why wait 15 - 30 years to deal with FDOT (they could still end up giving you the middle finger) if you could have a version on local roads/ROW up and running within five?

QuoteNot having curb cuts on multiple blocks, bicycle lanes, a bad median landscape plan and no pedestrian warning signage are things that hurt the walkability of Main.

Agreed. Why add (or in this case increase) one more thing that could make it unpleasant to walk there?

QuoteBtw, the faux trolley are essentially the same idea as the concept of BRT.  Its trying to reduce the national stigma associated with buses by providing a more attractive, reliable service.

We know they are dressed up buses. This, as a stigma-reduction tactic, is working in Riverside and at the Beaches, so I'm for it.

QuoteMy professional opinion says those who believe FDOT will allow streetcars on Main are wasting their time and valuable resources.  FDOT is in the business of moving cars as efficiently as they can.  This is why they have put medians in the middle of Main and a host of other streets throughout the State.  Imo, if you want to effectively make change, you simplify the issues.  Convincing FDOT to rip up the investment they are currently making to introduce something they will view as not improving vehicular flow falls in the category of complicating the issue.

Any govt entity will move at a glacier's pace, and seek a reason to say no to most requests, regardless of how logical. It's how they work. I wouldn't have thought a band of creative-classers with a forum board and no inside-govt role in local or regional transit (even with transit experience or expertise), would have a shot at slowing NEFL's old-guard transportation approaches (MORE & BIGGER BUSES and HWGHYS you insolent citizenry!) - but metrojacksonville.com has. We need to convince JTA that it should be telling FDOT that a downtown/Springfield streetcar line will help Jax in terms of economic development under its medical tourism and CBD revitalization initiatives...

QuoteIn the S-line's case, its Springfield that should be lobbying to make sure they get a station

QuoteSpringfield needs to tap into them to benefit.

Agreed.

I have always supported having Springfield station(s) on any proposed S-line route through working with a representative at metrojacksonville.com and within JTA. I recall a representative of SPAR taking the same position in a meeting with Mike Miller (though I believe that was a personal position, rather than an official one as that would require board approval).

I don't think anyone in Springfield has said I only want trolley, or I only want streetcar (for sure I haven't). Busing that is currently here serving residents and businesses, fine (although I'd like to see the stop on E 7th b/w Main & Hubbard disappear, as there are 2 others within a block of it, and its existence seems unjustified).

Trolley to be replaced by streetcar someday, fine.

Having the S-line run through Springfield's warehouse district would be a great boon to downtown area development on the whole, as well as to Springfield - fine.

I agree complementing is the way to go, but I don't agree one transit type should be increased in the short-term, with unpromised funds as the justification, while risking the overall character of the Historic District and potentially the other complementing transit types that are a better fit.

BTW, even though current S-line proposal is focused on land already owned by COJ, from a budgeting and timing perspective, aren't we still much further away from getting that implemented than trolley, even IF trolley is delayed until next years' operational grant application cycle (Fall 2010)?

QuoteThe faux trolleys don't spur economic development, raise property values or enhance an area's image the way rail does.

Agreed. Trolleys implementation time: 1 year. Streetcar implementation time on local roadways: 5 years. S-line implementation time on CROW:?

SPAR should take a stance on all of these. I never advocated only one form of transit in Springfield. I only advocated against increasing traditional/express/rapid bus on Main Street or Boulevard.

The faux trolley, commuter rail and amtrak improvements stand in completely different categories with me from an urban planning and priority standpoint.

Calling the faux trolley a success really depends on how success is defined.  Imo, transit should also help facilitate growth, connectivity and spur economic development.  Its just a minature green bus driving down existing streets.  It does not attract high ridership numbers (I believe its lower than the skyway's numbers annually), spur economic development, visual or infrastructure improvement along the corridors it serves.  Downtown's continued struggles are a clear example of this.  

Furthermore, there is no opportunity to create an income generator with the faux trolley.  Amtrak's studies already show they can break even running corridor service between Jax and Florida's other cities.  Like commuter rail and streetcars, it also spurs economic development in the form of TODs.

Laying track on the S-line also provides the city the opportunity to make money with freight and port operations.  These are funds that could be possibly used for annual O&M costs for a passenger service along the same line.

On the other hand the faux trolley does complement the activity taking place in Five Point and the Beaches.  The key difference is these places were already vibrant.  We will not get the same effect with Main, which is probably why funding was rejected when stacked side to side with the other proposals.  

Out of all modes discussed above, Amtrak will probably be the quickest to bring online, but that plan will not impact Springfield.

As for JTA running buses every ten minutes down a major spine through the Northside, I simply don't see this as a negative in any fashion from an urban planning standpoint.  All of the systems discussed are different modes of mass transit that are used for different reasons.  Enhancing a poor bus service does not take away from rail.  However, Peyton's plan to take more money from JTA for roads will reduce the viability of both.  In any event rail, streetcar or not, Jax can't consider itself a first class american city with third world bus service.  Increasing bus headways to make the system more reliable should have happened years ago.

Quote from: zoo on December 10, 2008, 12:07:48 PM

QuoteThe faux trolleys don't spur economic development, raise property values or enhance an area's image the way rail does.

Agreed. Trolleys implementation time: 1 year. Streetcar implementation time on local roadways: 5 years. S-line implementation time on CROW:?

SPAR should take a stance on all of these. I never advocated only one form of transit in Springfield. I only advocated against increasing traditional/express/rapid bus on Main Street or Boulevard.

It should be noted that we are coming at this from two different angles.  Springfield is your top priority, so your view is more centered around the community.  My view is more regional, long term and economically impacting.  The trolley is not on my list, but it would look something like this.

1. Amtrak Florida Corridor Service

2. Commuter Rail

3. BRT

As for Springfield, here is how I would approach these issues from a planning perspective.

1. BRT (take official position on it and work it into the commerical revitalization plan and Shand's long term goals.  I think JTA wants this thing running by 2010 or 2011.)

2. Commuter Rail (with community support, this can easily happen within five years)

3. Streetcar (the study is delayed so priorities should be shifted to commuter rail)

BRT and commuter rail may be a few years from happening, but Springfield will be locked into whatever JTA is planning right now if the groundwater isn't poisoned.

QuoteOn the other hand the faux trolley does complement the activity taking place in Five Point and the Beaches.  The key difference is these places were already vibrant.  We will not get the same effect with Main, which is probably why funding was rejected when stacked side to side with the other proposals. 

Springfield has a VERY vibrant residential fabric (maybe just as vibrant as these other areas' commercial districts ;-), just not much reason to bring it on to Main/8th at this time. This could change as early as April with the completion of the Cesery project and Uptown Market opening, provided there is some connectivity with other vibrant pods like the Pearl and Shanty/Zombie/Burro Bags areas.

Area residents have been asking for transit options into downtown, a mere mile away, for several years, as many work there and have professional commitments that don't jive with walking/biking (much of Jacksonville is just too stuffy to be ok with a professional person showing up for work in semi-casual biking gear - trust me, I've tried it).

In addition, Shands/UF complex has 5,000 employees who currently have to get in their cars to get to and from work, and to do basic convenience errands during work breaks. A trolley could get them directly to Carl's, Uptown Market, or into downtown to the Library or eateries.

QuoteAs for Springfield, this would I think should be happening from a planning perspective.

1. BRT (take official position on it and work it into the commerical revitalization plan and Shand's long term goals.  I think JTA wants this thing running by 2010 or 2011.)

2. Commuter Rail (with community support, this can easily happen within five years)

3. Streetcar (the study is delayed so priorities should be shifted to commuter rail)

Totally agree with this, with the exception of absent, more short-term trolley solution. I put this at the front due to 1-2 year time frame, and connectivity that could be created between Springfield and Downtown.

QuoteBRT and commuter rail may be a few years from happening, but Springfield will be locked into whatever JTA is planning right now if the groundwater isn't poisoned.

I agree this should be up there, as well, and is why I am weighing in with my opinion. I in no way trust JTA to have Springfield's best interests at the top of their priority list. As you have indicated, metrojacksonville.com's focus is regional transit, rather than what will most benefit a particular community. I support metrojacksonville.com's regional transit focus and priorities. I am hopeful, in the coming SPAR board elections, someone with the expertise and training will be run and be elected, such that making SPAR's BRT stance official and liaising with JTA and metrojacksonville.com on larger transit issues will have a committed, and more available, representative.

Meanwhile, I will continue doing what I can do, as a representative of myself, to encourage the future success of the community.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 10, 2008, 12:42:30 PM
BRT and commuter rail may be a few years from happening, but Springfield will be locked into whatever JTA is planning right now if the groundwater isn't poisoned.

Especially in terms of lobbying, funding procurement, and long-term development strategy, this is absolutely true.

Bus service improvements will bring most all of their dollars to the neighborhood during the project implementation. We need to make sure those infrastructure improvements happen where they are needed most.

Commuter rail will drive development for decades and Springfield needs to pounce on getting a piece of the pie -- not on the study map that the stop in the warehouse district is considered an "additional" or expansion stop. Along with the stop at Shands, we should push to have the warehouse district included in the original roll out.

I would love to see a street car or trolley service in the area, but I don't think a route that goes from Shands to First&Main is best route. It does little to promote downtown and inter-neighborhood connectivity. If you were talking real rail trolley, any line would also have to service downtown to be useful. If we're talking bus-trolley, those lines follow development, not spur development (example: Riverside and Beaches services).

I agree with Lakelander's ranking of priority transit issues. None of the urban core neighborhoods can afford myopic thinking on transit issues.

Quote from: zoo on December 10, 2008, 01:21:25 PM

QuoteOn the other hand the faux trolley does complement the activity taking place in Five Point and the Beaches.  The key difference is these places were already vibrant.  We will not get the same effect with Main, which is probably why funding was rejected when stacked side to side with the other proposals. 

Springfield has a VERY vibrant residential fabric (maybe just as vibrant as these other areas' commercial districts ;-), just not much reason to bring it on to Main/8th at this time. This could change as early as April with the completion of the Cesery project and Uptown Market opening, provided there is some connectivity with other vibrant pods like the Pearl and Shanty/Zombie/Burro Bags areas.

Area residents have been asking for transit options into downtown, a mere mile away, for several years, as many work there and have professional commitments that don't jive with walking/biking (much of Jacksonville is just too stuffy to be ok with a professional person showing up for work in semi-casual biking gear - trust me, I've tried it).

In addition, Shands/UF complex has 5,000 employees who currently have to get in their cars to get to and from work, and to do basic convenience errands during work breaks. A trolley could get them directly to Carl's, Uptown Market, or into downtown to the Library or eateries.

What's the population of the perspective Springfield market for the trolley compared with the markets of the Riverside and Beaches services?  What are the hours desired for operation?

QuoteIf you were talking real rail trolley, any line would also have to service downtown to be useful. If we're talking bus-trolley, those lines follow development, not spur development (example: Riverside and Beaches services).

Agreed. The route, as submitted by JTA, was supposed to go into downtown at least to Hemming Plaza, and possibly to the Landing (where it would conveniently have connected to the Riverside trolley).

In Springfield in the past 3 years, there has been more than $160M of development, if I just add the Proton Therapy Institute and SRG homes. Add in another $12M for Cesery's project. And there are additional dollars if you count a $2M Walgreen's (at least), renovation development activity, and probably more that I'm not recalling, or of which I'm not aware. I'm not saying this equals the development in Riverside or at Beaches, because I don't keep tabs on those areas, but I don't think $175M worth of development investment can be ignored.

QuoteWhat's the population of the perspective Springfield market for the trolley compared with the markets of the Riverside and Beaches services?  What are the hours desired for operation?

4,500 Springfield residents, 5,000 Shands/UF employees, 3,000 FCCJ students, faculty and staff, and 55,000 downtown office workers. Hours were not determined prior to submission of the grant, but JTA had information regarding peak movement, shift, attendance times for Shands/UF and FCCJ.

QuoteAgreed. The route, as submitted by JTA, was supposed to go into downtown at least to Hemming Plaza, and possibly to the Landing (where it would conveniently have connected to the Riverside trolley).

That's not a bad route.  So was it supposed to go along 8th, then south along Main and use 1st Street to cross over to Laura?

Im ok with that. An express bus with a stop at Shands, and stop at 8th and Main, and a stop at 1st and Main on its way to the Landing, or even Rosa Parks seems ok to me. Its more of what we already have, but at least it isnt putting 4 buses an our in front of the houses of those who live on Boulevard. A bus doing the speed limit seems like its flying, and as I wouldn't want it in front of my house, I have a hard time telling someone else it should be in front of theirs.

Looking at JTA's route, the Boulevard rapid bus segment in New Springfield and Brentwood is more residential than it is in Springfield.  Once it hits Norwood, it runs in commercial areas all the way to I-295.

OK, Zoo:

QuoteLol. Strider, I get a kick out of how, even when you agree with me, you hold fast to finding ways to disagree with me  . Until FDOT rejected JTA's operational grant recently, JTA's planned timing for implementing trolley on Main was less than 18 months out (Fall of 2009).

Umm, as you had already posted that the trolley was nixed, it does indeed it seems my comment was valid.  It, by the way, had nothing to do with agreeing or not agreeing with you.  I don't think about you all that much, but I'm so glad you got a "kick" out of it.

I also have to admitt that when I said "trolley" I was thinking what you are calling street car.  And yes, that's why I said (old fashioned looking and clean) buses as I think that is what you are calling "faux trolley".  My mistake on using the wrong term. So, when thinking about a rail "street car" - can someone comment on my "questions" I posted earlier?

Wasn't there once trolleys up other streets as well? Would it be more practical to run the trolley up a parallel street? I don't know what would be best, but am simply trying to throw other ideas out there. What about Boulevard? The parks on one side, a short walk to Main or a short (old fashioned looking and clean) bus ride to Main? Wouldn’t that promote commercial development between the hospital and Main? Wouldn't that benefit everybody? Wouldn’t that help make the Park System a destination for the whole city? As we have been told that the buses would only be running a slow speed anyway, why couldn’t the trolley be part of that so called "BRT" system? Even if it was initially (old fashioned looking and clean) buses, then converted? Wouldn’t that make funding easier? Have it serve two purposes? If the speed was the same and only one or two more strategic stops added, it may actually add a draw to the entire bus system?

QuoteAn express bus with a stop at Shands, and stop at 8th and Main, and a stop at 1st and Main on its way to the Landing, or even Rosa Parks seems ok to me.

DTP, you've misunderstood. The route I was referring to was for trolley (dressed up bus), not express buses. I still believe those should go on Jefferson.

QuoteThat's not a bad route.  So was it supposed to go along 8th, then south along Main and use 1st Street to cross over to Laura?

It wasn't determined where the trolley route would cut over to Laura, but I believe to make the headways, they were planning to do it more out-and-back style on Springfield part of Main St, DOWN Main through downtown, then possibly UP Laura back to 1st. This is only my memory of what was discussed, with finalization of any route occurring after the matching FDOT grant is approved.

Yes, there were trolleys on several streets in Springfield.  Ock has an old streetcar map somewhere on this site.  I'll see if I can dig it up.

QuoteWasn't there once trolleys up other streets as well? Would it be more practical to run the trolley up a parallel street?

If you really wanted a streetcar in the neighborhood, it would be the easier option because you would then not have to deal with the federal government.

QuoteAs we have been told that the buses would only be running a slow speed anyway, why couldn’t the trolley be part of that so called "BRT" system?  Even if it was initially (old fashioned looking and clean) buses, then converted? Wouldn’t that make funding easier? Have it serve two purposes? If the speed was the same and only one or two more strategic stops added, it may actually add a draw to the entire bus system?

It would cost more and duplicating lines would only serve on section of the community, instead of multiple neighborhoods.  So, if the plan would be to invest in two systems, its to the community's benefit to see this money put into two separate lines that complement each other and benefit more communities.  This was a major issue I had with JTA's original BRT lines.  If you want a certain type of system, its to your financial advantage to build it from scratch instead of paying for two systems.

As for funding.  A lack of funding is not an issue, its an excuse to stay the same.  The main issue is the priorities of our leadership.  For example, the city claims $100k is too much to convert the block of Main, between State & Union, into a two-way.  However, the same city thought a $700k investment in a park no one wanted, a few blocks down the street, was a drop in the bucket.  Change the leaders and resources already in our possession could be shifted to make rail based alternatives reality.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 10, 2008, 02:45:12 PM
Looking at JTA's route, the Boulevard rapid bus segment in New Springfield and Brentwood is more residential than it is in Springfield.  Once it hits Norwood, it runs in commercial areas all the way to I-295.

If I lived in New Springfield or Brentwood I'd be pissed about this prospect too. I wouldn't want a diesel bus slow or fast in front of my house every 10 minutes no matter where I lived.

I do not want those smelly loud obnoxious busses by my house. I will ahve even more people walking down the street to cath a bus on Blvd that otherwise would never be on my street...which means I will ahve to watch out for missing items, and the occasional "disagreements" that occur between the average bus rider. Ughhh

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QuoteI also have to admitt that when I said "trolley" I was thinking what you are calling street car.  And yes, that's why I said (old fashioned looking and clean) buses as I think that is what you are calling "faux trolley".  My mistake on using the wrong term. So, when thinking about a rail "street car" - can someone comment on my "questions" I posted earlier?

I'm your huckleberry for this one.

First let's clear up some terms so everyone is on the same page:  

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/CLRV_Trolley_Pole.jpg/250px-CLRV_Trolley_Pole.jpg)

"TROLLEY" - Is a small metal wheel that rolls along an electric contact wire and delivers power via a pole to the vehicle.  

(http://www.tramz.com/pe/li/li66.jpg)

Q. So are all classic Rail-Streetcar Trolleys?

A. NO. Streetcar yes, but trolleys no. Some use a folding pantograph with a wiper that runs along the wire, most modern system use these as do all of the high speed rail electric trains.  

(http://rogersradiointernet.com/BC/CKWX/images/2007/transit%20trolley%20bus.jpg)

Q. Can a bus be a "Trolley"?

A. Certainly, there are many trolley buses. They use a twin pole system (it's hard to ground 600 volts DC through rubber tires). The poles are mounted on pivots allowing them to swing around stalled cars or parked delivery vehicles.  

(http://www.visitingdc.com/images/cable-car-picture-2.jpg)

Q. Are the classic San Francisco cable cars trolleys?

A. NO. They are dragged along without a motor onboard by a moving cable buried in a slot in the center of the track.  

(http://www.phillytrolley.org/IMAGES/LA-PCCS.JPG)

Q. Does San Francisco have Trolleys?

A. Yes, STREETCARS - also Ferrys - Heavy Rail - Subway - Cable Cars - Buses - BRT - City Buses - Shuttles - Commuter Rail - Regional Rail.  

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Q. Does JTA have any Trolleys?

A. NO. The "Things" they call trolleys are just engine-frame sets of the same type used by Frito-Lay for their delivery trucks, thus the local (even at JTA) nickname PCT Trolleys, for POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEYS.  

(http://www.whatsupjacksonville.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/beaches-trolley2.jpg)

Q. Do the PCT Trolleys have ANY tourist appeal? Improve ridership? Show a demand for future real trolleys?

A. NO. Fact is they are poor fakes, even the name "Trolley" is a lie that comes from the builders of these abominations. They don't ride like real Trolleys, smell like real Trolleys, Look like real Trolleys or appeal to any more citizens then a clean electric shuttle bus would on the same frequent headways. To some of the unwashed masses it might sort-of-kind-of look like a trolley - sadly it DOES to JTA and City Hall. JTA, it's not revenge I'm after - it's a reckoning!

(http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gafulto2/Photos/StScenes/streetcar.jpg)

QuoteWasn't there once trolleys up other streets as well?

Yes, Springfield had Streetcars on Main to 33Rd to Norwood-Golfair
a loop Main - 4TH - Pearl - 11TH - Main
a loop Main - 1ST - Walnut - 8TH Main
All of East 8TH Street to Talleyrand
a loop Main to 8TH to Market to 20TH? to Main.
Some maps show a line up Hogan to Hogans Creek then a jog to match the Pearl line - it's not known if the jog was ever built. Both lines might have ended at different sides of the Park.

QuoteWould it be more practical to run the trolley up a parallel street?

Since real Trolleys are larger then buses, it's better to stay with the main and commercial roadways.

QuoteI don't know what would be best, but am simply trying to throw other ideas out there. What about Boulevard?

This would be a great way to end a modern or heritage system, up Main and Pearl to 8TH and hence to Boulevard to the Multi-Modal Commuter Rail/BRT station behind Shands.

QuoteThe parks on one side, a short walk to Main or a short (old fashioned looking and clean) bus ride to Main?
Wouldn’t that promote commercial development between the hospital and Main?

Nationwide, buses account for only 7% of all TOD's and most of those are "socialized" such as SSI offices, DMV etc. Private money follows the rails.  

QuoteWouldn't that benefit everybody?

Any transit improvements beat the hell out of what we now have.

QuoteWouldn’t that help make the Park System a destination for the whole city?

Add Heritage Streetcars and you could expect some 500,000 visitors a year just to come to town to ride. (marketing study)

QuoteAs we have been told that the buses would only be running a slow speed anyway, why couldn’t the trolley be part of that so called "BRT" system?

This is a common misconception - "cute - little - slow - old style trolleys". In fact they have superior speed  (nearly double) and acceleration (in Portland you can feel the G-Forces) to buses. They are larger then buses on average also... now as for cute - well that's in the eyes of the beholder.  

QuoteEven if it was initially (old fashioned looking and clean) buses, then converted? Wouldn’t that make funding easier?

No. Buses no matter how much lipstick one puts on them will do nothing to prove the ridership potential of rail. Buses do local best, BRT extended local, streetcars heavy duty urban, Commuter Rail sprints for distance - they each have a place.

QuoteHave it serve two purposes? If the speed was the same and only one or two more strategic stops added, it may actually add a draw to the entire bus system?

Certainly adding Rail to the mix will boost the bus system. A streetcar line would feed the Commuter Rail and the buses would feed both. Mix sells in transit just as it does in Wal-Mart.

So what is OCKLAWAHA'S vision, if I were in Blaylocks shoes?  

(https://www.swe.siemens.com/france/web/fr/sts/actualite/press/releases/PublishingImages/Castellon_June08_1.gif)

Bus routes between 8TH - I-95 - University Blvd (roughly a circle) would be converted to trolley bus. Ditto for BRT.



(http://citytransport.info/Scans/Oxford-battery-bus4a.jpg)
PCT buses would be replaced with pedestrian friendly, low-floor modern electric shuttle buses.



(http://citytransport.info/NotMine/Bologna-Civisa.jpg)

BRT would be expanded on HOV-toll lanes to Jax Beach via Arlington
Also via JTB
Blanding
Moncrief
Kings
Normandy
Hecksher-Bush
Merril-Wonderwood
Edgewood
With a study of dedicated busway along the Emerson Street Connector - extended from Phillip's to Arlington Expressway



(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/8-11-08046-1.jpg)
As I took JTA regional, All those displaced and newer diesel buses would find plenty of work in out laying burbs that never dreamed they would ever see bus service... Green Cove? Starke? Callahan? Jacksonville Beach? Ponte Vedra? St. Augustine? and the far corners of Duval would become enabled to be CAR-FREE.



(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1202/723730548_f6e4036434.jpg)

Streetcars would reign on Water-Independence-Newnan-Orange-Main-8Th-Boulevard
also looping Newnan-Beaver-Randolph-Duval-Lee-Water
also looping 8Th - Pearl - Duval
Extending: Lee at Water, down Park to King to St. Vincents.
Also a streetcar line east of Iona, on the old F&J Railroad right-of-way from Beaver North to 21St where it would cross the
Commuter Rail line at grade and proceed to Gateway Mall on the ACL portion of the old "S" line.



(http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/madrid-light-rail/images/1-madrid-light-rail.jpg)

LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT or LRT would go into immediate study for the Beaches areas.



(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2875-armory_square.jpg)

Commuter Rail would be extended to
St. Augustine,
Fernandina Beach,
Green Cove Springs,
Macclenny



(http://www.dailynewsgroup.com/pics/padn/400xN/padn/2008-5-1-caltrain)

Regional Amtrak would be operated:
Jacksonville-Valdosta-Macon-Atlanta
Jacksonville-Tallahassee-Pensacola (day train) in addition to any New Orleans train on the route.
Jacksonville-Gainesville
Jacksonville-Savannah LOCALS
Jacksonville-Montgomery via Waycross
Jacksonville-Tallahassee LOCALS
Jacksonville-Ocala-Tampa (day and overnight)
Jacksonville-Daytona Beach-Melbourne-Miami (day and overnight)
in addition to the current trains.



(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/seattle-etc-monorail.jpg)

SKYWAY- would go to the following end points - with new train cars:
Farmers Market
Stadium
Blue Cross/Annie Lytle (5-Points area)
Atlantic (west of the FEC tracks) in San Marco
Current San Marco Station to Atnea and Baptist Hospital
with a serious study for a new Courthouse-Shands link perhaps via Davis



(http://westseattleblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/wtcrowd.jpg)

Water Taxi wouldn't go high speed, but would extend to more locations as a pseudo-pleasure-taxi-transport system. Themed as the old Jacksonville river boats.  


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"Make no mistake, y'all down at JTA might be just fine for a starter system for an INDEPENDENT rapid transit agency, but then again, y'all might be the Antichrist!"

Thank you so much for this information.

Some residents feel Boulevard is too residential oriented.  Ock, what's your position on JTA's current North Corridor plan?

Also, if JTA wants to do this, why can't they just start running express buses down this corridor before sinking millions into signal upgrades?

As to Boulevard, if the system was streetcars, then wouldn't the noise and pollution issue would be reduced to less than that street sees now?  With the parks on one side and the houses, which I think is the biggest draw and asset for Springfield’s commercial future, it becomes a very pleasant ride for those weekenders we hope come to enjoy the parks, see the houses and then spend their money at the commercial district.

Yes, thanks Ocklawaha for the great information. A couple more questions.  Do other cities partner with companies like CSX to build street car lines?  It does seem like those companies have most of the expertise and with a waning economy, perhaps excess capacity for construction of rail lines, ETC. Would it make sense to build at least part of the "loop" you describe now as part of the "BRT" system with a thought of adding to it later? It just seems like money; in this case, better revenue streams for JTA, would talk louder than anything else.  Even with a higher initial capital cost, your quote: Add Heritage Streetcars and you could expect some 500,000 visitors a year just to come to town to ride. (marketing study), certainly is intriguing. It seems that if a large group of people come to a town to ride streetcars, then more in-town people would tend to use them as well. And as the current "BRT" proposal is slow, noisy buses, the street car system would give it the faster speed BRT seems to infer?  So, what am I missing, as it sure seems Streetcars are the way to go?

One thing to remember is that the bus proposal is not designed specifically for Springfield.  Its JTA's attempt to create a reliable bus corridor with quick service that links major employers, service and retail destinations through the Northside, the most transit dependent section of the city.  This needs to happen regardless of if the city moves forward with additional forms of mass transit.  I say this, because without reliable bus service complementing streetcars, commuter rail, light rail or whatever, they'll struggle as well.

I'd also maintain that its a bad idea to push both bus and streetcar service to run down the same corridor.  Especially, when we are already cash strapped.  We should plan our multiple modes to complement each other by serving specific areas where the other does not.  This will increase ridership for all modes instead of having them tear each other apart by competing for the same riders.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/JTANIGHTMARE1-1.jpg)
Lake, I just can't understand why JTA and COJ hasn't embraced our loving help...

QuoteSome residents feel Boulevard is too residential oriented.  Ock, what's your position on JTA's current North Corridor plan?

I am blown away by the sudden epiphany that seems to have run through JTA'S BRT planners. I think they are finally on-target to go in the right direction. I would like to see another branch of this running from Boulevard out Moncrief into New Kings as it would touch more impoverished and transit dependent people. But that's an easy next step once this is up and running.

Also, if JTA wants to do this, why can't they just start running express buses down this corridor before sinking millions into signal upgrades?

We should do just this Lake. I spoke to Michael Blaylock about this at some length. Riders MUST be trained and taught the benefits of a new type of service. You wouldn't build High Speed Rail in the Okefenokee for the same reason's = RIDERSHIP. The system needs to start looking and operating like BRT, YESTERDAY. I'm always amazed when the wizards at FDOT talk about HIGH SPEED RAIL and all the people that will flock to it - "If you build it they will come." But to skip the part where people learn to ride by building corridors, and commuter lines first - THEN HSR, is a plan for disaster. Likewise the BRT. We should be closing headways (frequencys) to 8-10 minutes = more riders = go to signal priority = more speed = more riders = go to HOV lanes = more riders + more speed = go to first class stations... etc. A good icebreaker rides up on one section of ice at a time and breaks it off, if we drive in too far - too fast - we'll be high and dry. Not to say we shouldn't have a COMPLETE MULTI-MODAL PLAN (including the damn Skyway) IN HAND NOW!

QuoteYes, thanks Ocklawaha for the great information. A couple more questions.  Do other cities partner with companies like CSX to build street car lines?  It does seem like those companies have most of the expertise and with a waning economy, perhaps excess capacity for construction of rail lines, ETC.

Almost never, Railroads + Passengers as a private enterprise don't mix, even the mention of "why don't we XXX with passengers, " would be enough to get yourself a pink slip from any of our big three!

That said, they do help in community causes, for example the original ZOO train was done in 4 sets, SEABOARD, ATLANTIC COAST LINE, FLORIDA EAST COAST and SOUTHERN. Todays ZOO railroad enjoys a generous grant from CSX and the track experts at SAPP AND SONS (a Jacksonville based national rail contractor). So they do have a heart, just don't mix business with "community involvment".

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/BayatNewnanSkyway.jpg)
Independence Drive under the new Main Street Bridge Approaches?

QuoteWould it make sense to build at least part of the "loop" you describe now as part of the "BRT" system with a thought of adding to it later? It just seems like money; in this case, better revenue streams for JTA, would talk louder than anything else.

No, the fact is a single mile of FIRST CLASS railroad, is cheaper to build then a mile of highway. The railroad track (yes streetcars too) has the equal of three times the (PPHPD) passenger-per-hour-per-direction capacity. No money would be saved by building BRT to convert it to rail. That has been a World Wide PR campaign on the part of the BRT Lobby, sadly there is not a single case of this ever happening anywhere on earth! Once BRT - Always BRT.

QuoteEven with a higher initial capital cost, your quote: Add Heritage Streetcars and you could expect some 500,000 visitors a year just to come to town to ride. (marketing study), certainly is intriguing. It seems that if a large group of people come to a town to ride streetcars, then more in-town people would tend to use them as well.

This is correct, we are missing a huge tourist industry and a play, especially in Springfield - Riverside - 5 Points - Fairfield to our heritage as the largest TRACTION (Streetcar) RAILROAD in Florida. Also due to landscaped medians in Springfield and many other area's it was also know around the globe as "The Worlds Most Beautiful Trolley Line". As for cost, I can have two hertiage streetcars - DELIVERED to Jacksonville - completely rebuilt to meet ADA and every other modern standard for less then $500,000 each, lifespan - about 100 years.  Track? about $7 Million a mile in streets. The price of the true new hybrid BRT buses run about $600,000 - 900,000 dollars and have a life span of 12 years!

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Going into Shands I would create a multi-modal rail/busway.

QuoteAnd as the current "BRT" propostal is slow, noisy buses, the street car system would give it the faster speed BRT seems to infer?  So, what am I missing, as it sure seems Streetcars are the way to go?

Yes, streetcars would be superior in dense areas. Again if I were JTA, I'd be looking at Commuter Rail, Streetcar and Skyway to the "S" line station behind Shands. THIS would become the "new Rosa Parks" for the northside BRT lines. The modes would all approach from different directions:

BRT - North and Northwest
RAIL - East - West on the current urban trail
STREETCAR - Pearl - 8Th - Main
SKYWAY- from the South and slightly west at Davis

Think of good transit as layers on layers, but each serving it's own market with plenty of connecting terminals. In this case it would shake out like this:

BRT -would be our medium speed - lighter load - trunk lines
RAIL- would be our sprinter - reaching out and touching distant commuters and burbs - our heavy hitter.
STREETCAR -would be our heavy urban vehicle - faster on private medians - able to mix it up with traffic - heavy loads
SKYWAY -would become the over-and-above 24 hour moving sidewalk between major downtown collection points and terminals.
AMTRAK - would be our regional surface connection with the most comfort and speed of all.  

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/lightningandTRACTION-1-1.jpg)

wow. awesome information. thanks...

you are like the Yoda of Transportation.  :)

Phil

Ock, great stuff. Add to it an integrated transportation AND parking payment system, and all of a sudden Jacksonville's transit system, economic development, downtown, and much of its populace could come completely out of the dark ages, and have something to brag to the rest of the world about!

I've suggested a transit/parking payment system like Parcxmart in the past. http://www.parcxmart.com/how_citysolutions.html (http://www.parcxmart.com/how_citysolutions.html)

This is a card-payment system that is based on a revenue-sharing model, and can be integrated with all variations of transit, parking and commercial (civic AND private), because the depositing of funds is set up electronically for each payment unit. Because it is a revenue-sharing model, the company will deploy, at no charge, the electronic payment units.

So, with a loaded payment card (loading can be done at transit stations, parking garages, participating retailers/tourism sites, or online), a Jacksonvillian could hop on a water taxi at Julington Creek, have dinner at Sake House on the Southbank, take the Skyway to the Northbank for Artwalk, then take the BRT to the airport for a late eve flight. OR, someone from St. Augustine could hop on commuter rail, switch to trolley at JTA transit center to meet friend in Springfield, trolley back downtown, meet another friend who swiped a card at a meter/garage near Bay St., then visit Starbucks (or, better, a LOCAL retailer) to re-load card and get a coffee. All with a card, no cash, and no lack of transit options or parking. All of the revenue generated would be separated and transferred electronically into the appropriate entity's accounts!

City could trim/re-apply parking meter collection resources.

I am hopeful that the cooperation, integration and creative-thinking, and politicking in the City's interests is avail in little ol' Jax to help the City, JTA, near-transit merchants, and our visitors' bureau all realize increased efficiency/rev/profit/regard.

Two more things about a system like Parcxmart: 1. It can be used for toll roads (I know we don't have any), 2. It is inter-operable from city to city. Here is link to a pdf brochure with outline...

http://www.parcxmart.com/documents/ParcxmartBrochure.pdf (http://www.parcxmart.com/documents/ParcxmartBrochure.pdf)

Having a farecard system is basic to having any kind of efficient transit system.  Having to pay for a bus fare then getting off and having to get a token for the skyway adds time and frustration to your trip.  All the other transit systems I have used you could use debit/credit to recharge your farecard.  Has JTA done any best practice studies on the best transit systems in the U.S. or overseas to understand what make their systems successful?  Choice riders as they are called are the riders that are going to make a difference in Jacksonville.  The people that are currently using transit will probably continue to if a well developed system is put in place.  They will benefit by a more efficient transit system that gets them where they are going faster.  The tough sell for people that have the choice of transit is to get them out of their car.  Similar sized cities of Austin and Salt Lake City have developed light rail at cost less than JTA is wanting to spend on BRT.  LYNX (Charlotte) was over budget when they started service last November but has already exceeded ridership projections for 2025.  
     

Alta, what I think you are saying is you get more ridership with light rail. This I agree with.

I no longer commute, but when I did light rail was first choice, bus last. When I took the coast starlight I could try to schedule it so I could take the train ALL the way up or down the cost and not have to switch to a bus for part of the trip.

I wnet out yesterday and drove along some of the current bus routes, one thing I noticed is most of the houses on these routes were very dirty. Meaning they had a lot of accumulated dirt on whatever side of the house was facing the street, additional green or black mold on the house,fence, and or sidewalk, and the gardens were doing very poorly when compared to any of the other houses I looked at off route. These buses are filthy, the fumes and smell alone are disturbing, but the dirt and pollution they kick up and spew are detrimental. These buses should not being running in residential areas, especially historical ones.

Electric trolleys/buses would take care of these issues nicely. No NEW EXPANSION of BRT for Springfield. NOTHING good for Springfield will come out of this NOTHING. Turning Blvd into a mini bus highway will turn out just as bad as is did for Main st. You can just start kissing those houses on Blvd goodbye...

if there is no chance to move the buses/trolleys/whatever new transit projects from Blvd to Jefferson, the least we could do is to zone the house along blvd to commercial. It is pretty bad to sleep in such noise, pollution and traffic as is. rezone it commercial at least will motivate (hopefully) some private investment into the houses alone blvd. Otherwise, they will die and shave a slice out of historical neighborhood. :(

Maybe Shands needs more parking lots and offices....the city is just helping them out? I mean they KILLED Jefferson and half of Blvd this side of the tracks already so why not take the rest of Blvd. Perhaps Perry will be next...they already started on the NW side.