Grim news is flooding in from the charming genteel district south of downtown.
San Marco, which went through rapid and sustained gentrification beginning with the Davis Family investments in the early 90s and the Lori Boyer led renovation of the Fountain of Lions seems to be the first of the historic districts to be feeling the pain of the Depression.
The Square is dominated by Jacksonville local original business concepts.
Peterbrooke's, Pizza Palace, and the Loop are only a few of the local chains made good that were birthed and housed in the Square.
For now they seem to be doing well, but later in the 90s and in this decade, these staple businesses were joined by the efforts of Matthew Medure and Pom, who opened Matthew's, Pom's Thai Restaurant at Square One, and Matthews Market. They followed suit in Ponte Vedra with Medure's and Old Siam.
Last week, the Ponte Vedra locations were empty and shuttered, and according to sources in San Marco, the employees at Matthews discovered that their checks were being withheld.
Uncommon Grounds is on the list of closings to coincide with the new year.
Closings by this group of people would take out four San Marco landmark restaurants and leave huge holes in the fabric of the retail district.
Also rumored to be faltering is the Corner Brasserie, and 5 more of the smaller retail shops (which I will not name for fear of creating self fulfilling prophecies.)
Then news this morning that last night, the rash of smash and grabs has spread to San Marco.
Dianne Whitten reports that her coffeeshop was broken into and the register, with the previous days receipts inside, was stolen.
Grim news.
Uncommon grounds?
how is that possible... they always seem packed.
I was just in there a few days ago.
Man that would bum me out.
regarding the break-in
Don't retailers make a nightly drop ??
I've heard rumors that Uncommon Ground is planning on moving to the Springfield area.
Would'nt purporting a depression be a self fulfilling prophecy?
"Some will come, and some will go, this will surely pass, we are but a moments sunlight, fading in the grass..."
I'm not negative on San Marco - Riverside - Avondale - Fairfax - Ortega or San Jose or even St. Nicholas. Each of these business centers offer a unique eperience not unlike Worth Avenue, Hollywood Blvd, Coral Gables or Rodeo Drive. This is not to say the shopping is on par with Worth or Rodeo, but the atmosphere is certainly there. These places ARE Jacksonville's signature neighborhoods, they are already what we think Springfield aspires to be.
Art shops, crafts, small botiques and cafes are not CSX or Fidelity Financial, and they will always have a fragile bottom line, making them very prone to economic woes. Old ones will fold and we'll get a whole new crop, perhaps new blood with ideas imported from New Orleans, San Francisco, Portland, and the Florida Keys.
Our own unique melting pot of Jersey City Industrial - meets Lynard Skynard and Jimmy Buffet. No where else but JACKSONVILLE.
Once upon a time in 5-points it was THE THEATER, Petersons 5 and 10, Ben Franklin, News Stand, and Barber. Today the neighborhood is even richer, Petersons was a huge loss, but no where does the spirit march on like the urban collection of 5-Points. San Marco is the Southsides 5-Points and it will likewise soldier on, too unique, too cool, too sweet to die.
OCKLAWAHA
Is Starbucks downtown still closing? Perhaps Uncommon Grounds could move there?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on December 08, 2008, 11:51:19 AM
Is Starbucks downtown still closing? Perhaps Uncommon Grounds could move there?
Im sure the rent on that space is a small fortune.
The owner of Uncommon Grounds wants to move the business to Springfield. Unfortunately, she has not been able to locate a space for the business. So far, she told me about two locations she was interested in that has not worked out. Those were the Main Street Bakery (a restaurant is already going in here) and the old Epicurean Cafe (leasing rate disagreement). In the meantime, she's going to move to Springfield and continue her search. This is something I plan to bring up with SAMBA. Uncommon Grounds would be the perfect complement for the existing businesses in Springfield.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 09, 2008, 09:53:51 AM
The owner of Uncommon Grounds wants to move the business to Springfield. Unfortunately, she has not been able to locate a space for the business. So far, she told me about two locations she was interested in that has not worked out. Those were the Main Street Bakery (a restaurant is already going in here) and the old Epicurean Cafe (leasing rate disagreement). In the meantime, she's going to move to Springfield and continue her search. This is something I plan to bring up with SAMBA. Uncommon Grounds would be the perfect complement for the existing businesses in Springfield.
Even with 3 Layers already there?
So is it a case of too hihg rent, or wanting to pay too little? We here a lot about greedy landlords here, but I always wonder if that is really the case...
Matthew's in Ponte Vedra is supposedly not economically related, but a business and/or personal relationship issues with the owners. That's what I heard this weekend.
Quote from: The Compound on December 09, 2008, 10:51:06 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 09, 2008, 09:53:51 AM
The owner of Uncommon Grounds wants to move the business to Springfield. Unfortunately, she has not been able to locate a space for the business. So far, she told me about two locations she was interested in that has not worked out. Those were the Main Street Bakery (a restaurant is already going in here) and the old Epicurean Cafe (leasing rate disagreement). In the meantime, she's going to move to Springfield and continue her search. This is something I plan to bring up with SAMBA. Uncommon Grounds would be the perfect complement for the existing businesses in Springfield.
Even with 3 Layers already there?
Sure. They appeal to a different demographic.
Glad to hear that Uncommon Grounds is wanting to move to Springfield. I'm sure she will find a suitable space.
I hope Laylas can pull through. Kasbah hookahs make me sick and The Sahara has too much UNF "brah" fest going on.
It will be interesting to see what replaces the Corner Brasserie. Does anyone know when the streetscape project, on that section of San Marco Blvd, will start?
So are you predicting that no restaurants will open up at Kings Avenue Station due to poor economic conditions?
Yes. That project should be complete at some point in 2009.
We're all gonna die!!! ::)
Perhaps Nostradamus could also tell us the winner of the 2009 Super Bowl so we could make some well timed wagers. We will sure need the money. ;)
Quote from: stephendare on December 18, 2008, 12:08:58 AM
We will be lucky to keep 25 percent of our entertainment and lifestyle related businesses that are already existing.
So, you are predicting that 75% of all such businesses will fail in the next year?
BTW, when was credit not a part of the economy? The 1200s perhaps?
I believe when the economy finally turns San Marco will recover faster than most areas. Now hopefully we are near the bottom.
Well, the poor service, poor commodity, poor management places should fail. They will not have the "false economy" to support them any longer. If people do not have as much to spend they are not going to spend what they have on a crappy experience.
It will tell us one thing if it fails. All the clustering in heaven or hell isn't going to change Springfield, if San Marco can't make it spin. In which case we are in far deeper trouble then any of us suspects.
OCKLAWAHA
Businesses come and go. San Marco isn't going anywhere. While economic conditions may close certain places, it also creates new opportunities for others.
Not so sure Ock. If you think about Historic Springfielders have much more disposable income. We tend to be above average age earners, who have not spent 400-500K on a little ranch house, and are younger, so do not have the extra expense of teenagers/college. We have other hurdles to get over in Springfield, such as native response to our area, but we actually have more disposable income then some of the other higher end neighborhoods....
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 02, 2009, 07:58:29 AM
Not so sure Ock. If you think about Historic Springfielders have much more disposable income. We tend to be above average age earners, who have not spent 400-500K on a little ranch house, and are younger, so do not have the extra expense of teenagers/college. We have other hurdles to get over in Springfield, such as native response to our area, but we actually have more disposable income then some of the other higher end neighborhoods....
I guess next time I drive by Raymond Mason, Doriana Atkinson, or Wayne Weaver's house, I'll make sure to leave a note at their doors, saying "Move to Springfield, you need the money!". That is...assuming I get past the 12ft high iron gates. And maybe someone should pop in to John Peyton's place and let him know he must be strapped for disposable income, being that he lives in San Marco.
I mean, I'm not denying that it takes a nice chunk of disposable income to tackle a restoration on one of those Springfield termite-traps, but to say that Springfield residents' disposable cashflow exceeds that of a San Marco or Riverside or whatnot, based solely on the fact that they pay less in housing costs, is really kinda laughable.
You're only analyzing one half of the picture. Yes, housing costs less in Springfield, but the average gross income in S.M. and Riverside is undoubtedly higher, and this would offset the difference. If someone making $100k has $30k in annual housing payments, and someone else making $50k has $12k in annual housing payments, then the person with the $1k/mo mortgage certainly will have a better DTI ratio on paper, and may look better statistically, but guess what...the $100k guy still has more money, and more disposable income. You have to analyze the whole picture.
Wow! I did not realize that Historic Springfielders only made 50K a year! Shoot I must be the Wayne Weaver of Springfield then!!!!
Where the heck have you been? I bet I could pick out three names here that are quite wealthy too, but those people you listed do not make up for the hundreds of small ranch houses that go for 400-500K (at least when i was looking three years ago). The people purchasing those homes are not "Wayne Weavers". It is like saying Alrington is full of rich people, by measuring only the people living on the riverfront LOL! I am not slamming San Marco, I am just saying on the whole, we have people making the same amount of money with lower housing and other expenses (such as the younger age of residents here that would not have college tuition for kids). Why so hostile? termite traps? you seem to have some issues with Springfield LOL! You think termites are only in Springfiled, well do I have news for you!
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 07, 2009, 06:24:05 AM
Wow! I did not realize that Historic Springfielders only made 50K a year! Shoot I must be the Wayne Weaver of Springfield then!!!!
Where the heck have you been? I bet I could pick out three names here that are quite wealthy too, but those people you listed do not make up for the hundreds of small ranch houses that go for 400-500K (at least when i was looking three years ago). The people purchasing those homes are not "Wayne Weavers". It is like saying Alrington is full of rich people, by measuring only the people living on the riverfront LOL! I am not slamming San Marco, I am just saying on the whole, we have people making the same amount of money with lower housing and other expenses (such as the younger age of residents here that would not have college tuition for kids). Why so hostile? termite traps? you seem to have some issues with Springfield LOL! You think termites are only in Springfiled, well do I have news for you!
400k for a ranch home, where were you California?
Last 6 months sold. 400k-1Mil
San Marco:
Address Sub-Division Bed Bath Age App. SqFt Sale Price
1478 Riverplace Blv #906 San Marco Place 3 F2 1 2,379 $500,000
825 Waterman Rd S San Marco 5 F3 58 3,549 $515,000
3870 San Jose Granada No No 4 F2 H1 9 3,216 $560,000
2734 White Oak Ln River Oaks 4 F3 H1 72 2,774 $575,000
4009 San Jose San Marco 4 F3 H1 71 3,385 $740,000
4063 San Jose Bv Miramar Terrace 3 F2 H2 20 2,650 $460,000 89
1208 Norwich Rd Ardsley 4 F3 53 2,924 $475,000 219
1431 Riverplace Bl #2906 The Peninsula 2 F2 0 1,649 $475,000 559
Sprinfield:
1420 Silver St Springfield 4 F3 H1 2 2,546 $400,000
I think the fact that the housing supply in SPR is cheaper has been conceded and established. I think Riverside beats Springfield based purely on # of people. Riverside/Avondale have thousands of more people. I do think UTGs point is still a good one. There are quite a few Springfielders now who make good money. The much maligned Ulrich report indicated that a couple of years ago, and there has been a continued influx of Lawyers, Nurses, and various other professionals.
Quote from: jtwestside on January 07, 2009, 09:02:30 AM
Last 6 months sold. 400k-1Mil
San Marco:
Address Sub-Division Bed Bath Age App. SqFt Sale Price
1478 Riverplace Blv #906 San Marco Place 3 F2 1 2,379 $500,000
825 Waterman Rd S San Marco 5 F3 58 3,549 $515,000
3870 San Jose Granada No No 4 F2 H1 9 3,216 $560,000
2734 White Oak Ln River Oaks 4 F3 H1 72 2,774 $575,000
4009 San Jose San Marco 4 F3 H1 71 3,385 $740,000
4063 San Jose Bv Miramar Terrace 3 F2 H2 20 2,650 $460,000 89
1208 Norwich Rd Ardsley 4 F3 53 2,924 $475,000 219
1431 Riverplace Bl #2906 The Peninsula 2 F2 0 1,649 $475,000 559
Sprinfield:
1420 Silver St Springfield 4 F3 H1 2 2,546 $400,000
Ahhhhhhhh I see, San Marco Area my misunderstanding. Personally I like my westside home 4/3.5 pool 25 years old .5 lot, 149500
I think the biggest hurtle Springfield will have is the getting over all of the deeply rooted negativity that some in Jacksonville have in regards to the area.
I know (from post here) that those who live there know what I'm talking about. I've found that as soon as you mention that you're looking to buy in that area it's akin to announcing that you're moving to the middle of the Gaza Strip and your mere sanity is questioned. You have to explain why the Urban living appeals to you, why you don't want live in the burbs, or better (worse) yet why you don't just buy acres of land somewhere in Hickville, Fl!
Sorry for the rant, it's been building for some time. My bigger point is that the people who live there aren't the only ones who are needed to sustain a vibrant commercial district and I think Springfield will have to work a little harder than the rest to pull the rest of the city in.
I don't know why Wayne Weaver has become the benchmark of this income argument, but you should get your facts straight. Wayne Weaver lives in Lakewood\San Jose, about 5 miles south of San Marco. The area labeled as San Marco consists of more than just River Road. There are areas east of San Marco Boulevard that are a much more accurate comparison to Springfield than what everyone seems to be using as their examples. I'm sure everyone on the forum makes plenty of money, and congratulations for that, but very few people in Duval county can touch the folks on the east side of River Road. Any argument dealing with those sorts of extremes serves no purpose.
Captain Zissou - my point (sarcastic as it was) exactly.
DowntownParks- you nailed it.
I am not trying to slam either neighborhood, I personally like both, my whole point is some continue to dismiss Springfield and the purchasing power we do have and continue to increase. In speaking of disposable income there is a difference, we have not been hit as hard in the down turn, it tends to be a younger professional group with potentially not as much encumbrances. I just don't think if San Marco's is struggling, it means Springfield is going to be worse off, very different demographics.
Wayne Weaver no longer lives in the Lakewood/San Marco area, but in Riverside...just to get the facts straight :-)
I thought Wayne Weaver sold his mansion in San Marco and moved to Villa Riva in Riverside? so, i guess that would shift the wealth from San Marco to Riverside. Anyway, there are some good hard working folk in Springfield like me who make above the average. I know for a fact there are several doctors and lawyers who live in the "hood". It's a great place to be and I am perfectly sane.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 07, 2009, 10:22:28 AM
I don't know why Wayne Weaver has become the benchmark of this income argument, but you should get your facts straight. Wayne Weaver lives in Lakewood\San Jose, about 5 miles south of San Marco. The area labeled as San Marco consists of more than just River Road. There are areas east of San Marco Boulevard that are a much more accurate comparison to Springfield than what everyone seems to be using as their examples. I'm sure everyone on the forum makes plenty of money, and congratulations for that, but very few people in Duval county can touch the folks on the east side of River Road. Any argument dealing with those sorts of extremes serves no purpose.
Actually it's you who needs to get the facts straight. He sold that house several years ago and now lives in Riverside. Which MUST mean he's really strapped for disposable income...
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/110406/bum_5976978.shtml
Quote from: uptowngirl on January 07, 2009, 06:24:05 AM
Wow! I did not realize that Historic Springfielders only made 50K a year! Shoot I must be the Wayne Weaver of Springfield then!!!!
Where the heck have you been? I bet I could pick out three names here that are quite wealthy too, but those people you listed do not make up for the hundreds of small ranch houses that go for 400-500K (at least when i was looking three years ago). The people purchasing those homes are not "Wayne Weavers". It is like saying Alrington is full of rich people, by measuring only the people living on the riverfront LOL! I am not slamming San Marco, I am just saying on the whole, we have people making the same amount of money with lower housing and other expenses (such as the younger age of residents here that would not have college tuition for kids). Why so hostile? termite traps? you seem to have some issues with Springfield LOL! You think termites are only in Springfiled, well do I have news for you!
Ok, so then let's hear your list of Springfield multimillionaires and billionaires...
Let's not turn this discussion into a fight over which neighborhood is better.
Back to topic please.
I agree. Clearly Springfield is, so lets move on :-)
Lol. Downtownparks, whoever you are, I like you.
On the lower end of the scale you also had Gino's bistro & Pizzeria relocate from their old location next to Lanops to a new locatoin near Univ & St augustine rd. Quiznos nearby has also shut down.
I guess it's sad but Matthew's Market lasted longer than I thought it would, to be honest. It's a neat place but priced waaaay out of my league.
Quote from: thekillingwax on January 22, 2009, 02:23:45 AM
I guess it's sad but Matthew's Market lasted longer than I thought it would, to be honest. It's a neat place but priced waaaay out of my league.
Mine too.
And to be honest, I can't ever picture myself spending $40 on a small block of cheese, or $50 for some pate anyway, even if I had all the money in the world. It wasn't just that it was expensive, it was also overpriced. There wasn't a lot of value for what they charged.
Is the restaurant still open?
I love Mathew's market I call dibs on the gazpacho.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 22, 2009, 06:58:19 AM
Is the restaurant still open?
Yeah, I think Matthew's is open but I know his brother's place out at the beach folded.
SanMarcoMatt Springfield has a Mediterranean/Greek restaurant, Urban Market, Ice Cream/Sandwich Shop, Jazz/Wine Bar opening in the next three months. I know the yuppies in San Marco get satisfaction on looking down on the people a few blocks north even though the people moving here are middle and upper class and are working as hard as we can to make this a great community. "That, and it sounds so much better to say San Marco instead of Springfield when people ask us where we live. Now, just kidding......just a little humor to lighten things up.
However, we are certainly doing our part by exclusively going to our local favorites when we eat out.?"
Meanwhile, despite the "flames", Jonathan Insetta is opening a new San Marco restaurant soon:
QuoteJonathan Insetta, the owner of Chew and Orsay, is working on expanding his empire. Insetta confirmed he is in the demolition stage with a property in the Southbank area, near Tidbits on Hendricks Avenue.
Insetta, 30, hopes to open his third restaurant within a year. In 2006, he opened his first eatery, the modern downtown cafe Chew. And, last fall, he launched Orsay, a French bistro at 3630 Park St. in the Riverside-Avondale area.
The new restaurant will be an American-style eatery with influences throughout North America, including Canada, the Northeast and the South. Insetta said the concept is "real, family-style food." The restaurant will have similar pricing to his other places, with entrees ranging from $10 to $30, he said.
Insetta said he's confident he can expand even as many restaurants have shuttered in recent months.
"Personally, I feel like with the lessons learned from Chew and Orsay that we can sustain during this period of time," said Insetta, who studied culinary arts at FCCJ and the Culinary Institute of America in New York.
http://jacksonville.com/lifestyles/food/2009-01-22/story/orsay_chew_owner_to_open_3rd_eatery
Insetta, Oral Explosions, Kings Avenue Station, Baptist Medical's massive expansion projects and the office tower at 1436 San Marco Blvd. indicate that San Marco is enjoying a boom it has not seen in a while. Perhaps this is the result of being in a centralized location with a major medical employment base nearby.
I agree, that the neighborhood's stability comes from it being both a community of place and interest. Those are things it has going for it that most areas of Jacksonville continue to lack. Nevertheless, San Marco is not going up in flames. Unfortunately, that quote would apply to the Regency area.
I have eaten at Mathews and Mathew's market and did not know they had a lounge bar.
Very nice place... I cannot eat or drink there often but Jacksonville needs more places like this.
Quote from: stephendare on February 23, 2009, 12:01:05 PM
Its really quite beautiful. And they have an affordable bar appetizer menu going on as well.
What's this? "Matthews" and "affordable" all in the same sentence? Whoa...
QuoteHigh-end restaurants seek lower-cost recipe for success
JACKSONVILLE â€" The recession that forced restaurateur Matthew Medure to close one of his upscale restaurants and his San Marco market and catering business has inspired him to reopen both with a new focus toward the price-conscious consumer.
Matthew’s Market & Catering in San Marco opened in 2006 and closed in January. It is scheduled to reopen in the coming weeks as the Take Away Gourmet with new options and lower prices.
Restaurant Medure in Ponte Vedra Beach opened in 2001 and closed in late November, but is expected to start renovation work in the coming weeks and could reopen in May.
full article: http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/03/30/story4.html?b=1238385600^1800673
QuoteHow many people in here have actually dined at Matthews? (or Medure's or Matthew's Market?)
I have and I love it. But I find Orsay beats them in quality of Food and bar. So why leave the Best Side?
Good luck to Keily and Sam at Cafe Carmon. They are going to Rock it!
QuoteCouple eager to remake Cafe Carmon into go-to spot
When long-time San Marco staple Cafe Carmon closed its doors for good last month, it could be taken as a bad sign for Jacksonville restaurateurs.
Two former employees of Restaurant Orsay in Avondale look at it differently.
Kiley Wynne Efron and Sam Efron had always dreamed of opening their own restaurant, and they wouldn’t let anything get in the way â€" including a slowing economy.
So when the married couple heard the cafe was closing after nearly a quarter century, they went right to work. And after a short period of negotiations, the Efrons reached their goal.
The restaurateurs had no prior connection with Cafe Carmon, but were able to assume the lease from the property’s landlord, Deco Partnership LLC.
They will be opening a seasonally inspired restaurant with European influences in the space once located by the community favorite. The couple hopes to launch a few soft openings in the late summer, followed by a grand opening in August.
“We want to bring new blood and energy to the square,†Kiley Wynne Efron said.
full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/business/2009-04-13/story/couple_eager_to_remake_cafe_carmon_into_go-to_spot
Nice to see a little more positive news -
Medure's back in businessQuoteAmid rumors that his last remaining restaurant, Matthew's, was going belly up, restaurateur Matthew Medure assured me last February that not only was Matthew's going to survive this economic slump, but also that his market across the street as well as Medure's at the beach was going to reopen as well.
Medure has kept his word.
His gourmet market in San Marco got a new-economy makeover and relaunched in April as Take Away Gourmet, a by-the-pound lunch and dinner place. (Read the review.)
The last piece of the puzzle â€" Medure's in Ponte Vedra Beach â€" reopened last week. The newly reborn Medure's features lower price points and a remodeled bar area. More details to come.
http://www.jacksonville.com/lifestyles/food/2009-08-14/story/dining_notes_medures_back_in_business
good spot will have to check it out.