Peyton's Struggles: Florida Coastal School of Law
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With everything from completing Better Jacksonville Plan projects to battling increasing crime rates, from maintaining infrastructure to reviving downtown, Mayor John Peyton struggles. Today, Metro Jacksonville begins a series that will take a deeper look at the trials and tribulations of our mayor.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/955
This is the legacy of the Peyton administration. Baymeadows Way is now home to the Florida Coastal School of Law and the Jacksonville Art Institute. Another missed opportunity.
Great article. I would suggest a followup article on the kind of impact Johnson & Wales has actually had and what it took to land them. Savannah with it's Savannah College of Art and Design campus would be another case to look at.
Since J & W opened UNC-C and Wake Forest have also added Uptown satelite campuses. A major addition to the UNC-C satelite is set to start soon.
I could only imagine what Lavilla would look like with the new courthouse, Florida Coastal School of Law, The Jax Art Institute and Bay Street Station. We have no progressive thinkers in our city govt. when it comes to development. What a missed opportunity!
A blinding failure of the Peyton administration.
It's more than 1500+ more people eating lunch downtown, but even that should have gotten the city's attention. FloCo downtown would have brought a steady stream of students, professors, and staff that would lived, worked, and played in the urban core. The move would have helped not only downtown development but would have aided Springfield, Riverside, and the other urban neighborhoods. As a city trying to attract large businesses and more professionals, a downtown law library--which would have come with FloCo--would have been a nice asset. FloCo may be developed on a "for profit" model, but it's a stable business that is pretty recession proof (people love going back to school in down times).
I know my FloCo interns wished they had access to bookstores, restaurants, and coffee shops between classes. Professor friends assert that a downtown location would have been better for academic prestige and faculty morale; the city would certainly benefit PRwise as well.
I am amazed at this city's repeated inability to equate tax incentives and temporary abatements with growth and long-term tax revenue increase.
Parking downtown is not in short supply. Even if the city (inexplicably) couldn't address parking for the law school with new construction, commercial rate (or student discounted) parking fees are a reality at many urban campuses. They could have worked out some deals with the parking interests (many of whom have city-backed guaranteed profit contracts).
So the JEDC and the could not figure out the parking to get the law school by the Courthouse and the Art institute next to Lavilla's art school while the entire site has already been leveled. Also in the area of the proposed transportation center. They did not even have to sell them on a downtown location they already wanted it. I have never felt worse about our mayor.
I would say Peyton has been a disaster but that might be an insult towards disasters.
I didn't live here when the move to downtown for Florida Coastal was up for discussion, but after reading the article, find the whole ordeal hard to fathom. I can't think of one good reason to not have supported this. What were they thinking? This would have been a wonderful asset for revitalizing downtown. We have plenty of open land downtown and urban schools all over the US make the parking situation work. My respect for this mayor is now below negative percent, if that is possible. I'm afraid this week's articles will be even more depressing, but I hope they create awareness of what a failure Peyton is. I've said it before, but we need to recall him, before he ruins even more of this city's future.
turtles. :-\
Peyton just don't get it does he? Another sorely missed opportunity to fill in downtown and add density and even a few more scrapers. Sure will be glad when he's history.
Heights Unknown
Perhaps the UNF partnership with Museum of Contemporary Art underway can pick up where this may have left off. With 16,000 students going to UNF, it would be nice if they had a true downtown campus offering all different types of classes. I'm sure parking downtown is comparable to university parking ::)
It would be nice. After all UNF once had a downtown campus in the same building during the 1970s.
You Know the schools would have piggy backed each other. You get the Law School and Art Academy then FCCJ Expansion and UNF would have to get in on that. Find some Connection with EWC suddenly you have a lively downtown scene private money would want to have a part of. All of the businesses who haven't seen downtown as viable would have that as a real choice. I do not even want to think of how improved the commuter rail studies would look if they converged on those campuses in an urban area.
There's no emoticon to express my feelings right now.
I don't know how many times it has to be said, but there is too much parking downtown! This was even pointed out by the consultant from Gannett Fleming in the context of commuter rail feasibility. Too much free or low cost parking is a disincentive for rail. Wake up leaders! If we continue to have our suburban zoning code, with its illustrious off street parking requirements drive development, Downtown will continue to lose the battle to all of the new Baymeadows Ways and Gate Parkways of the region.
Quote from: Surfjaxpier on December 09, 2008, 08:08:59 PM
I don't know how many times it has to be said
Many many times. welcome, surfjax
I don't blame the city; Florida Coastal School of Law is a rip off! Has anyone checked their fees? They are 4 times the cost of most state-run schools! They remind me of the John Marshall program in Atlanta, claiming to specialize in the "forgotten market" - women and minorities.
I don't think they should even be allowed a license!
Quote from: cireewol on December 11, 2008, 07:25:30 AM
I don't blame the city; Florida Coastal School of Law is a rip off! Has anyone checked their fees? They are 4 times the cost of most state-run schools! They remind me of the John Marshall program in Atlanta, claiming to specialize in the "forgotten market" - women and minorities.
I don't think they should even be allowed a license!
Its a private school, private schools are always much more expensive than public ones.
Not just private. For profit.
WTF?
You can't compare a private school with state schools and then act surprised that the private school is more expensive. That's retarded. Private schools will naturally have higher tuition, because they aren't funded by your tax dollars and have to be self-supporting.
There are only 4 state law schools in Florida, with the incoming 1L class at UF having around 400 people, FAMU has about 300 new admits, FIU has about 350 new admits, and FSU takes in around 400 new admits. So, IN THE ENTIRE STATE there are somewhere around 1,500 slots available ON AN ANNUAL BASIS for state law schools. This state has 18.1 million residents, so do the math there. Private schools are a necessary part of the system, at least to the extent that you consider lawyers to be a necessary part of the system. I know that part is debatable. Lol.
And as to "for profit", that may be, but the line between that and a "not for profit" private school is nonexistent from the student's perspective. Stetson University is a not-for-profit, yet their tuition is higher than FCSL's, and their bar passage rate is inferior. And then take Barry University in Orlando, they claim to be not-for-profit, but gimme a break, they're Catholic...talk about a big BUSINESS...the catholic church is one of the biggest.
Does anyone know when Peyton's term is up?? What about the City Council?
I think some Metro Jax members should run...
Quote from: Traveller on December 11, 2008, 08:22:15 AM
Not just private. For profit.
True. Meaning they get absolutely no govt subsidy.
I'm skeptical of for-profit educational institutions too, but I give Florida Coastal the benefit of the doubt.
Quote from: happical on December 11, 2008, 03:04:12 PM
Does anyone know when Peyton's term is up?? What about the City Council?
I think some Metro Jax members should run...
The next City elections are Spring 2011. *sigh*
There are way too many lawyers out there. Go into a productive line of work. ;)
QuoteThe next City elections are Spring 2011. *sigh*
Oh my, what a shame. I think a lot of the problem lies in the fact that Jacksonville is so spread out land-wise. Downtown has yet to be a big city center and the majority of Jax-civilians DON'T live in or near downtown so they don't really see the urgent need for change there. It is sad though for those of us who do, and who see its potential. I'm sure the south-siders just love how great of a job the city council is doing. Pft. I guess all we can do now is hold our breaths for 2011!
I don't think we can use the spread out land-wise thing as an excuse. Nashville, Indianapolis, Columbus, Charlotte, Oklahoma City and Louisville are all spread out land-wise yet still have vibrant downtowns. We've had just as much investment in our core as these places but we've done a poor job of creating synergy between various new and existing developments.
Sadly in 2011 you will see the same ole story....
How did the dropping the ball with the Law school and Art institute correlate time wise with our turning our nose up at the Florida State medical school?
I sure would hate to have our Urban Core's culture being influenced by tomorrow's lawyers, doctors and artists.
What? :o Are you serious? That makes three strikes. If it was baseball he would be out of here. Send him back to Ponte Vedra and his concrete fortune.
Quote from: brainstormer on December 16, 2008, 09:53:43 PM
What? :o Are you serious? That makes three strikes. If it was baseball he would be out of here. Send him back to Ponte Vedra and his concrete fortune.
or overcoat
They are better off without Coastal. The school is a rip off. It's the worst ranked law school in America, but charges about the same as Duke University. Whether it's private or not it's a pure scam. 98% of the people who graduate from there won't find a job that pays decent wages in the legal field.
I will take any rip off college over a homeless feeding station. I think the Mayor and certain people intentionally want to make the downtown a homeless central.
Quote from: wihtgar on June 08, 2009, 09:34:38 PM
They are better off without Coastal. The school is a rip off. It's the worst ranked law school in America, but charges about the same as Duke University. Whether it's private or not it's a pure scam. 98% of the people who graduate from there won't find a job that pays decent wages in the legal field.
Can you back any of this up?
I thought they had one of the highest pass rates of the Florida Bar than any other law school in the state? maybe I am mistaken?
Quote from: vicupstate on June 09, 2009, 07:43:39 AM
Quote from: wihtgar on June 08, 2009, 09:34:38 PM
They are better off without Coastal. The school is a rip off. It's the worst ranked law school in America, but charges about the same as Duke University. Whether it's private or not it's a pure scam. 98% of the people who graduate from there won't find a job that pays decent wages in the legal field.
Can you back any of this up?
That comment sounds like it came straight from the mouth of someone who gave FCSL a go and didn't graduate. The school is accredited by the American Bar Association and according to their website "Coastal Law graduating classes consistently pass the bar in Florida, most recently with an 85.2 percent pass rate in February 2008. That rate placed Coastal Law third among Florida's 10 law schools and was almost nine points higher than the state average." Calling it a "pure scam" sounds like libel to me, and I'm not lawyer.
I can vouch for several graduates who have found great jobs in the legal community after graduating from FCSL. The school is especially great for those who want to earn a law degree but can't move to a different city to do so.
Quote from: wihtgar on June 08, 2009, 09:34:38 PM
They are better off without Coastal. The school is a rip off. It's the worst ranked law school in America, but charges about the same as Duke University. Whether it's private or not it's a pure scam. 98% of the people who graduate from there won't find a job that pays decent wages in the legal field.
Sweet, I guess I know 2% of Florida Coastal's grads.
yeah, jason you and I must know the same 2%.
law schools are just trade schools they aren't teaching neurosurgery or rocket science. the costal grads that I know (and no I didn't go there either) are very competent. Heck you think that going to some prestigious school like Harvard or Yale makes you smart? just look at John Yoo, complete idiot, I'd take a coastal grad over this baffoon any day.
hmm, I think we are talking about the mayor not the school in this thread. Can we back on topic?
Quote from: wihtgar on June 08, 2009, 09:34:38 PM
They are better off without Coastal. The school is a rip off. It's the worst ranked law school in America, but charges about the same as Duke University. Whether it's private or not it's a pure scam. 98% of the people who graduate from there won't find a job that pays decent wages in the legal field.
You're a idiot.
FCSL is not the worst-ranked in America, it's not even close. Even within this state, it consistently has a higher bar passage rate than Stetson, FIU, FSU, Barry, and FAMU. And as to the cost, it's LESS EXPENSIVE than Stetson or Barry University, which are both "not-for-profit" schools with inferior bar passage rates.
You clearly haven't read the USNWR rankings, so where exactly did you get your 'facts' from? Baghdad Bob?
um...really?
from what I understand, FSU consistently has the state's highest pass rate on the bar
Florida is about to get another law school. Ave Maria School of Law, a Catholic law school in Ann Arbor, Michigan, has announced it will be moving to Naples. It will be the 11th law school in the state, and the fourth new law school opening in the past decade.
1. Stetson University (1900) - Gulfport/Tampa
2. University of Florida (1909) - Gainesville
3. University of Miami (1926) - Coral Gables
4. Florida State University (1966) - Tallahassee
5. Nova Southeastern University (1974) - Davie
6. St. Thomas University (1984) - Miami Gardens
7. Florida Coastal School of Law (1996) - Jacksonville
8. Barry University (1999) - Orlando
9. Florida A&M University (2000) - Orlando (prior law school closed 1968)
10. Florida International University (2000) - Miami
11. Ave Maria School of Law (2009) - Naples
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 16, 2009, 09:18:42 AM
um...really?
from what I understand, FSU consistently has the state's highest pass rate on the bar
You evidently misunderstood.
It varies from exam period to exam period, but FSU isn't consistently in the top spot. Actually, except for 2006, they're rarely in the top spot. And FCSL regularly lands ahead of FSU.
http://www.sunethics.com/ba-results.htm
http://www.discourse.net/archives/2008/09/university_of_miami_law_tops_florida_bar_pass.html
Quote from: Traveller on June 16, 2009, 10:30:15 AM
Florida is about to get another law school. Ave Maria School of Law, a Catholic law school in Ann Arbor, Michigan, has announced it will be moving to Naples. It will be the 11th law school in the state, and the fourth new law school opening in the past decade.
1. Stetson University (1900) - Gulfport/Tampa
2. University of Florida (1909) - Gainesville
3. University of Miami (1926) - Coral Gables
4. Florida State University (1966) - Tallahassee
5. Nova Southeastern University (1974) - Davie
6. St. Thomas University (1984) - Miami Gardens
7. Florida Coastal School of Law (1996) - Jacksonville
8. Barry University (1999) - Orlando
9. Florida A&M University (2000) - Orlando (prior law school closed 1968)
10. Florida International University (2000) - Miami
11. Ave Maria School of Law (2009) - Naples
The state's population has also increased something like 65.8% in the last two decades.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on June 16, 2009, 10:50:02 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 16, 2009, 09:18:42 AM
um...really?
from what I understand, FSU consistently has the state's highest pass rate on the bar
You evidently misunderstood.
It varies from exam period to exam period, but FSU isn't consistently in the top spot. Actually, except for 2006, they're rarely in the top spot. And FCSL regularly lands ahead of FSU.
http://www.sunethics.com/ba-results.htm
http://www.discourse.net/archives/2008/09/university_of_miami_law_tops_florida_bar_pass.html
please explain...the one link provides history...and FSU led in general pass rate for 2006, July 2007, and Feb. 2008
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 16, 2009, 11:22:46 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on June 16, 2009, 10:50:02 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 16, 2009, 09:18:42 AM
um...really?
from what I understand, FSU consistently has the state's highest pass rate on the bar
You evidently misunderstood.
It varies from exam period to exam period, but FSU isn't consistently in the top spot. Actually, except for 2006, they're rarely in the top spot. And FCSL regularly lands ahead of FSU.
http://www.sunethics.com/ba-results.htm
http://www.discourse.net/archives/2008/09/university_of_miami_law_tops_florida_bar_pass.html
please explain...the one link provides history...and FSU led in general pass rate for 2006, July 2007, and Feb. 2008
You said, and I quote:
QuoteFSU consistently has the state's highest pass rate on the bar
In reality, it does not, as the links I posted indicate. Pretty self-explanatory, no?
not really...but ok, I'll take back the word "consistently" and replace it with "regularly"....but you implied that they only had the top spot once...and your own reference shows at least three times since 2006.
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 16, 2009, 02:53:49 PM
not really...but ok, I'll take back the word "consistently" and replace it with "regularly"....but you implied that they only had the top spot once...and your own reference shows at least three times since 2006.
But you didn't say "
regularly" you said "
consistently". ::)
I wouldn't even call 3 times out of 12 bar exams (2 per year since '05) "regularly", but I guess reasonable minds could differ on that one. In any event, FCSL has done at least that well, which again, was really the whole point here in the first place.
And what exactly are you arguing with this "
If I had used different words, then I would have had a point" routine? You said what you said, and I responded to it. If you're admitting that FSU does not consistently score the highest in the state on the bar exam, as you claimed, then obviously I agree with you.
But you can't just backpedal whenever you're proven wrong, conveniently claiming that your own written statement wasn't what you
meant, and then declare yourself right based on something you didn't say until your original statement was proven incorrect. By that standard, nobody could ever be wrong about anything, ever. If anyone else tried to pull that B.S., you'd be the first one to call them out on it. WTF?
I agree that the wrong word was used and I apologize...all I was doing was questioning the original point that FCSL has done better than FSU (and as stated FIU, Stetson, etc.) over the past few years...the data does not show that.
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 16, 2009, 04:11:49 PM
I agree that the wrong word was used and I apologize...all I was doing was questioning the original point that FCSL has done better than UF and FSU over the past few years...the data does not show that.
Ya, clearly...
QuoteGENERAL FLORIDA BAR EXAMINATION
Florida International, 81.5% (22 of 27)
Stetson, 80.0% (60 of 75)
Non-Florida law schools, 73.7% (278 of 377)
Nova Southeastern, 72.5% (29 of 40)
AVERAGE OF ALL LAW SCHOOLS, 70.7% (554 of 784)
St. Thomas, 70.4% (19 of 27)
AVERAGE OF FLORIDA LAW SCHOOLS, 67.8% (276 of 407)
Florida Coastal, 66.1% (39 of 59)
Florida State, 65.0% (26 of 40)
Florida, 64.9% (24 of 37)
Miami, 61.1% (22 of 36)
Barry, 54.5% (12 of 22)
Florida A&M, 52.3% (23 of 44)
as you said yourself, one exam sitting over a multi-year period does not a "regular" trend make
<sigh> This thread is not a debate over bar passage rates, law school rankings, etc. Quotethe state's highest pass rate
Bar passage rates mean very little. Some schools provide bar prep for many of their students, while at others students are left to fend for themselves and rely only on commercial prep courses for bar study. Bar passage rates are thus influenced by school policy, course selection and requirements, and resource allocation. Most FloCo students stay in FL, thus the school makes a sizable investment in preparing students for the FL bar. It makes less sense for somewhere like UF to invest in bar prep when fewer of their graduates will remain in the state and more will be sitting for exams elsewhere. Also, keep in mind that some schools publish their 1 year bar pass rate (which would be 2 shots), others print their first-time pass rate (1 shot, usually July), and other publish their per-sitting rate (a certain shot, w/ all takers regardless of number of previous attempts). No surprise, law schools tend to harp on their highest stat.
QuoteIt's the worst ranked law school in America
U.S. News and other indicators do not number rank schools past 100. It is impossible to differentiate the rankings of schools in the third and fourth tiers.
Quote98% of the people who graduate from there won't find a job that pays decent wages in the legal field.
It's a tough time for all new lawyers in general, and it is always much tougher to secure employment if (like a significant majority of all lawyers in America) you didn't graduate from one of the "Big 15". New lawyers everywhere are painfully aware of their student loan burdens and job prospects--no need to remind them. As for decent wages, well, frankly law salaries for associates are terrible across the board here in JAX when compared to those in cities with similar costs of living.
No more FloCo bashing or p***ing contests over law schools. Let's get this thread back on track and stick to the debate over missed opportunities for downtown, please. I think we can all agree that not landing FloCo downtown was a huge mistake by the city. We all would have benefited from a robust downtown law library, a hoarde of available clerks, more opportunities for professional and academic development among local bar members, and 1500 more bodies in the urban neighborhoods to live, work, play, and spend money. Perhaps then firms wouldn't be fleeing for the suburbs, too.
I may be way off base here but I could never understand how LaVilla School of The Arts could be located on the outskirts of Downtown while Douglas Anderson School of the Arts is housed in a substandard building and location off Philips Highway. Why would the school board not try to relocate the arts high school downtown? The middle school kids either ride the bus or get picked up by parents who drive in and out of the area as fast as possible. Those creative type, high school kids can drive and would appreciate and frequent many of the downtown businesses and ammenities after school and in the evening after arts functions and shows. I wouldn't want to see a school spread out on a large piece of land but what about a multi story building or better yet reuse a couple of the already empty buildings downtown. They already use the Times Union Center for their big extravaganza each year and maybe they could partner with other venues like the Florida Theater. Just an idea, any thoughts?
QuoteAnother missed opportunity.
Get in line, Peyton is an idiot, he has no legacy and is know more for his inaction, than action. SCAD is not realistic downtown in Jax. No one comes downtown after dark, Savannah has downtown people, restaurants, we have a few restaurants who are not appreciated by the 32223 snobs.