Metro Jacksonville

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: thelakelander on December 04, 2008, 09:44:29 PM

Title: More downtown closures
Post by: thelakelander on December 04, 2008, 09:44:29 PM

Quote• A few Downtown establishments have shut their doors. Lucky’s barber shop in The Carling, Bread & Butter at the corner of Laura and Adams and Mongo’s at the Landing have all recently closed.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on December 04, 2008, 09:48:41 PM
Oh no I was just talking about Mongo's the other day :(  I liked eating there.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: blizz01 on December 04, 2008, 09:57:32 PM
Mongo's actually relocated to Fleming Island - I believe the owners live in the area.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: alta on December 05, 2008, 02:31:56 AM
The people in Fleming Island are obese because of too many places to eat and no homeless people to scare them off from the fine dining establishments.  That sucks that Mongo closed.  Burrito Gallery is opening a restaurant in Atlantic Beach within the next year. 
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: thelakelander on December 05, 2008, 11:47:16 AM
Quote• Wednesday was the last day for The Rose Agency on Laura Street. Owner Tim Rose is moving his high-end clothes shop to Atlanta and expects to open there Dec. 15.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: copperfiend on December 05, 2008, 11:54:00 AM
With Mongo's closing, the west end of the Landing will become even more a ghost town.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: DetroitInJAX on December 05, 2008, 12:21:57 PM
Glad I moved out of Downtown after 2 years!

Just a few more establishments that have fallen victim to the crushing weight of inane downtown regulation and half baked, poorly executed "urban planning", if you want to call it that.. (Both of which do more to keep customers AWAY than draw them in...... Im going to dinner at the Town Center!)

I supposed we can blame some of it on the economy.. But where in the heck is City Hall?  Why is FIXING downtown such a tall order for these people?
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: copperfiend on December 05, 2008, 12:31:48 PM
Does anybody know if the number of downtown workers has decreased?
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: David on December 05, 2008, 01:01:59 PM
Those places weren't around very long and didn't have any steady business to begin with. You've got to really try hard to keep anything open down there, ie burrito gallery, london bridge etc. Overall downtown seems busier than it was back in 2002. Before any solid residential units were in place , it was literally a ghost town after 6pm.

If it weren't for the economic downturn, we would've seen many more projects go up.  The landing's going in the right direction by turning into more of a nightlife and restuarant destination and bay street seems to be doing fine with the newer establishments. If  newer businesses continue to focus on that area I think it'll be a nice lil strip in no time.




Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: thelakelander on December 05, 2008, 01:20:40 PM
I believe The Rose Agency was already in business on Laura Street when I came to town in 2003.  Things have seemed to stall out at the Landing.  There was definately growth there when Sleiman first came in, but after the dance with Paris Hilton more businesses have closed than opened.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: CMG22 on December 05, 2008, 04:59:06 PM
Quote from: alta on December 05, 2008, 02:31:56 AM
That sucks that Mongo closed.  Burrito Gallery is opening a restaurant in Atlantic Beach within the next year. 

YAY closer to me!  Although it seems awful close to the original...

And it does suck that Mongo's closed.  It was a good deal for all you can eat  8)
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: Ocklawaha on December 05, 2008, 06:45:24 PM
So the Landing is down to what 20 retailers and food establishments? Tear it down and super size it, With streetcar and garage!

OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: tufsu1 on December 05, 2008, 08:37:51 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 05, 2008, 01:20:40 PM
I believe The Rose Agency was already in business on Laura Street when I came to town in 2003.  Things have seemed to stall out at the Landing.  There was definately growth there when Sleiman first came in, but after the dance with Paris Hilton more businesses have closed than opened.

I know its poopular to blame the City for the Landing's struggles....but the fact is Sleiman is out of his league>>>>he's used to suburban retail and the urban thing is just not his skill set....plus he has the family feud where one person owns the courtyard and outdoor bars while the other owns the retail space.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: thelakelander on December 05, 2008, 09:03:28 PM
I don't think he's out of his league.  Rouse couldn't even make a go with the structure and it was their concept.  To Sleiman's credit, its still a better place then it was before he purchased it.  As for the Landing's problems, I'd say there are a mix of things that when combined, create the situation it is in today.  So blame can go all around.

There's not much of a difference between urban and suburban retail, outside of how you handle parking and walkability.  The Landing is a dated structure in need of a good bath and makeover (both interior and exterior).  In addition, it still lacks the necessary parking promised over 20 years ago.  Dated retail centers struggle not only in urban areas, but the suburbs also.  Regency, Gateway and all the centers abandoned by Walmart, K-mart and Rowe's are examples of this.  Add limited guaranteed parking to a dated structure and it will breed a place that struggles to attract and keep first class tenants (aka. The Landing).  It should be a top priority of all involved to find a way to get that place updated.  Regardless of how we personally feel about it, its downtown's most popular destination and social gathering spot. 
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: jbirch82 on December 06, 2008, 03:06:06 AM
Dose anyone know who the tenants were both retail and food, when the Landing opened?
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: brainstormer on December 06, 2008, 10:29:47 AM
I'm not sure about a full list but in the beginning it included stores like Brookstone, Banana Republic, Ann Taylor, etc.  I did find this link to an interesting article.  The Landing is 20 years old and like everything else, it has to continue to remake itself to stay vibrant and not loose business to the suburbs.  It is in desperate need of a makeover.  There were huge plans in 2004 before the Superbowl, but like most else, nothing happened.  I haven't lived here long, but I chalk the whole lease vs. own thing to another of Peyton's plans to destroy downtown.  He really is out to get the urban core.  Try to convince me otherwise.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE6DC103EF931A25754C0A961948260
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: thelakelander on December 06, 2008, 01:25:39 PM
Here's the full list of original tenants when the Landing opened in 1987.

Restaurants

Annie Tiques
Cucos Restaurante
Fat Tuesdays
Hooter's**
L&N Seafood Grill

Kings Road Market

Butterfield's
The Fudgery
Goodes Bakery
Walter Hawkins Fruit Co.
Belloit's Produce
Harry's Seafood
Southern Savories

Founders Food Hall

Bananas
BBQ center
Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream
Big Apples Deli
Chinese Combo King
Coastal Cookies**
Everythings Yogurt
Fantastic Family Fried Chicken
Farhats
Flamers**
Gyro Wrap
Hovan Gourmet
Hot Dogs Plus
Lubi's
Potato Jacks
River Bay Cafe
Rocky Rococo
Steak Escape
Taco Amigos

Kings Road East & West

Accessory Lady
Alexia
C.A.R.D.S.
B. Dalton Bookseller
Bailey, Banks & Briddle
Banana Republic
Body Shop**
Brookstone
Casey & Osh, Inc.
Footlocker
Fun & Games (The Toy Factory)**
The GAP
G.H. Bail & Co.
Hixon's Surf Shop
It's Only Natural
Jarrod's
Landing Gear
La' Nik
Laura Ashley
The Limited
Limted Express
Maia Golani
Musicland
Resort Works
Sharper Image
Special Effects
Stadium Stuff
Sunglass Hut
Trocadero
Victoria's Secret

Dawson & Buckles Market

ATASH Waist Jewelry
Bali Beautiful
Bicycle Mania
Brass & Craft Comics
First Choice Jewelry
First Coast Sketches
Frisky Business
Jewelry in the Making
Kite Riggers
Miss Greenjeans
Mundo Del Maya
Papier D' Couleur
Splats
Straw Market

** - original tenants still in business at The Landing.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: alta on December 06, 2008, 02:01:13 PM
Wow!  Five of the 75 original tenants!!
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: DetroitInJAX on December 08, 2008, 12:17:22 AM
Wow.. That list is depressing.

Shows me that inept city government has been here for quite a long time.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: RiversideGator on December 08, 2008, 12:27:26 AM
I wonder how many of the same tenants are at the Regency Mall?  Or at the Normandy Mall?  Or at Roosevelt Mall?

Having said that, the City has dropped the ball on the Landing time and time again.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: thebruteman on December 08, 2008, 12:48:04 AM
A memorable letter to the FTU:

Quote
Last modified Tue., December 07, 2004 - 07:20 PM
Originally created Sunday, April 4, 2004

JACKSONVILLE LANDING: Time for a reality check

Get a grip, Jacksonville

Visit "therousecompany.com" and you'll learn about a 65-year-old company that operates over 50 regional shopping malls in places like Las Vegas, Chicago and Washington D.C. The Rouse Co., which developed The Jacksonville Landing and since sold it, also operates dozens of major office buildings properties nationwide plus highly acclaimed downtown projects that include Faneuil Hall Marketplace in Boston; South Street Seaport in New York; The Gallery at Market East in Philadelphia; Harborplace and The Gallery at Harborplace in Baltimore; Bayside Marketplace in Miami; Westlake Center in Seattle; and Pioneer Place in Portland. Their properties include tenants like Nordstroms, Brooks Brothers and Neiman Marcus (in Florida).

The Rouse organization is a publicly traded, highly skilled and knowledgeable real estate company that has won national and international recognition for their development, designs and management. Their projects are generally visually vibrant, commercially active contributors to the regions they serve. They are sophisticated people who know how to do a deal.

Rouse did not sell The Jacksonville Landing and take an approximate $20 million write-off unadvisedly. Rouse did not leave good money on the table and walk away from a potentially "super" market opportunity.

Toney Sleiman is an experienced and successful local developer who has demonstrated competence at knocking down pine trees, getting curb cuts and building suburban strip shopping centers of pedestrian design, at best, tenanted with nail salons, mid-price chain stores and carry-out restaurants and drug stores. Their most significant contribution to the nearby subdivisions they serve has, in my opinion, been to make the drive to the beach or office visually unattractive and unpleasantly congested.

Perhaps it's time for a reality check. Too many people are starting to take the Super Bowl hype too seriously. Let's keep things in perspective when it comes to giving tax money for redevelopment at The Landing.

RICHARD MARREN, real estate/marketing, Jacksonville

Just why did Rouse walk away?
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: alta on December 08, 2008, 02:46:29 AM
And Detroit is the poster child for free market, high growth, sophisticated living.  How many years has their population been decreasing? 

Quote from: DetroitInJAX on December 08, 2008, 12:17:22 AM
Wow.. That list is depressing.

Shows me that inept city government has been here for quite a long time.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: RiversideGator on December 08, 2008, 12:38:17 PM
Good point.  Detroit is in freefall with a recently imprisoned Mayor, inept and corrupt city government and a population declining so rapidly that, if current trends continued, would reach population 0 in 30-50 years.  I am not sure I am prepared to be receiving trash talk from a Detroiter, especially one who chose to leave the town probably for the reasons stated above.   ;)
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: JeffreyS on December 08, 2008, 07:45:14 PM
Quote
Just why did Rouse walk away?

I believe they did their research ahead of time saw what a great market they could have and made agreements with the local government to make it work. When Rouse realized the city would not live up to it's promises and actually discourage business Downtown they ran for the hills. A small commitment from this city to not discourage progress is all it would take for Jax to have a prosperous Urban core to go along with our suburbs and rural areas.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: tufsu1 on December 08, 2008, 09:29:45 PM
the reality is that the founder of The Rouse Company, James Rouse, saw investment in cities as a social good....he retired from the company in 1979 to start the Enterprise Foundation but stayed on the board.

Following his death in 1996, the company changed its focus entirely....and promptly liquidated most of what the founder had promoted....and eventually the company was sold to General Growth Properties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Rouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Rouse)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rouse_Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rouse_Company)

so there you have it....Rouse left becuase it didn't the company's portfolio.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: DetroitInJAX on December 08, 2008, 11:32:50 PM
Yeah yeah yeah, so go ahead and throw it back on my city..  Think I dont realise the problems we have?  Think I wasnt disgusted by the way the mayor acted?

BUT.

Look around Detroit. The recently renovated Westin Book Cadillac and Hilton Fort Shelby Hotels. Campus Martius. Washington Blvd. Three new permanent casinos. Detroit Edison's new "urban oasis". A complete Riverwalk.  Rebirth around Wayne State University/New Center. A new Borders Books. A new CVS/pharmacy. A Hard Rock Cafe. The second biggest Thanksgiving Day Parade behind New York. The International Freedom Festival Fireworks in June. Two new stadiums that are within walking distance of nightlife. The Fox Theatre. The Fillmore Theatre. The Gem Theatre. Orchestra Hall. Detroit Opera House. A brand new CompuWare Headquarters. and on and on and on.

And yes, in the historic center of the US auto industry, an area long known for having NO rapid transit, a privately funded Light Rail project running up Woodward Avenue.

And Downtown Jacksonville cant even manage to keep a donut shop open more than a year.  Heck, we cant even get around to putting in parking meters made this century, OR painting some lines on a few streets to make them two-way.  Not to mention that moonscape where the courthouse will go.... in the year 2525.

What Im trying to say is that at least my city has tried to turn Downtown around, and it may be working. They've managed to invigorate downtown through:
Job liquidation in the State of Michigan
A horrendous real estate market
5 months of conduct unbecoming a Mayor (or anyone, for that matter)
The near destruction of the principle business of the area (autos)

They managed to pull off alot of stuff up there, even through some of the most trying circumstances imaginable, and this city cant even get around to painting lines on Laura Street.  Im frustrated, and you should be too, instead of throwing mud in my face.

Images taken from MetroJacksonville study of Detroit:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/detroit/way-finding-signage.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/detroit/greektown-2.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/detroit/Hard-Rock-Cafe.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/detroit/BordersBooks.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/detroit/Woodward.jpg)

//rant off.

And no, I left Detroit to attend school.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: thelakelander on December 08, 2008, 11:44:29 PM
Yes.  Despite Detroit's, shrinking population, high murder rate, declining economic base and a mayor more interested in screwing his Chief of Staff then watching over the city, they still have managed to turn around their downtown over the last five years.  I'm afraid to admit that even Detroit has done a better job of cleaning up their downtown.  We should be ashamed given that we have more resources, higher population growth and a better economy.  Detroit proves that even bad leaders can get some things right.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: RiversideGator on December 08, 2008, 11:54:33 PM
DIJ:  Good points.  I was really just messing with you.  I too would like to see some of Detroit's progress in our downtown.  We are in no position to refuse lessons from anyone.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: ProjectMaximus on December 09, 2008, 03:15:53 AM
Wait...I can watch NFL highlights on my phone?!?!
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: tufsu1 on December 09, 2008, 08:01:51 AM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on December 09, 2008, 03:15:53 AM
Wait...I can watch NFL highlights on my phone?!?!

Not if you're in Detroit....the Lions don't have any highlights  :D
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: thelakelander on December 09, 2008, 09:04:57 AM
They have me interested.  It not every day that you get to see a team run the table in reverse.  If they can man up and accomplish the feat, this will be an achievement those players can one day share with their grandkids.  They almost blew it last week.  With Indy, New Orleans and Green Bay remaining between them and the record books, they need to put away their playbooks, drink and be merry and finish the ride to an 0-16 season.
Title: Re: More downtown closures
Post by: DetroitInJAX on December 10, 2008, 01:46:09 AM
Well, now some of you know how passionately I feel about a few things :D