QuoteI'd like to hear strider and sheclown's plans for attracting businesses to our commercial corridors or revitalizing the park system (and please be sure to include timelines, budgets, and funding sources). I haven't heard a plan from them for any actual positive neighborhood change? Please submit an outline of what you would do to improve Springfield (and we've already gotten that you would adhere to bylaws, get rid of certain boardmembers, make sure others are added through the elective process - this is fine, but what can you bring to this community after that?)
Zoo, you ask very good questions and I will answer briefly here and then respond when I can put my undivided attention into it. Please keep in mind that I speak only for myself and not anyone else.
There is a difference between ethics and performance which is huge. Some say that the ends justify the means, others do not believe this to be so.
Ethically, SPAR Council is having problems. Performance-wise, they are moving toward their agenda with efficiency.
Some of us are concerned where the ethical wrong turn will lead.
I'd like to think that Strider and I have brought a lot to the community already. We have restored dozens of houses and I've left some blood, sweat and tears in many of them. This community has been good to us in return. It has provided us a (very) modest living for years. There are many days when I don't leave the Pearl/Main Street loop.
That being said, I would always choose preservation over concentration on the commerical corridor. These houses are brimming with immeasurable worth. We are a historic district because we have historic value. I would immediately cease demolition plans.
As far as the business corridor goes, if we embraced and valued what we had, and didn't discourage places like Family Dollar who wanted to build here, the commerical corridor would develop on its own. It has in the past.
Furthermore, I think I would leave the commerical development to SAMBA and the preservation to SPAR. Isn't that what RAP has done? Doesn't RADO deal with the development and RAP the preservation?
One last thing, I would change the SPAR Council membership dues to $10.00 or make it free membership like the old HSCC did. In a neighborhood where 40% of the citizens earn $15,000 or less, charging $50.00 is cruel.
That's enough for now.
This really isn't about performance, as I stated previously. This is about ethics. I answered this for you, Zoo, because you asked.
QuoteAs far as the business corridor goes, if we embraced and valued what we had, and didn't discourage places like Family Dollar who wanted to build here, the commerical corridor would develop on its own. It has in the past.
LISC defined Springfield's trade area (TA) up to MLK. Family Dollar's new store is in our TA and on one of our main commercial corridors (Main St).
After attending LISC's Urban Forum and sitting in on seminars given by national experts on commercial corridors in revitalizing urban areas, listening in on the Downtown Retail Development Task Force meetings in 2006, attending 3 International Council of Shopping Centers (the international retail trade group) conferences, contracting with 2 reputable Jacksonville commercial brokers, meeting with at least 7 other well-regarded Jacksonville retail brokers and developers, and personally speaking with at least 15-20 possible retail tenants for our commercial corridors, I have not seen or heard a shred of evidence to suggest that Springfield's retail corridors will develop on their own. But I'm sure you know more about this than any of those people?
StephenD is correct in his earlier comments that attracting any business - entrepreneurial, mini-chain or otherwise - in the current contracting retailing climate will be beyond difficult.
If you all aren't happy with the pace at which SPAR is jumping for your meeting request, then I find it surprising you want to wait another decade OR TWO for the corridor to "develop on its own". I, and many other residents, don't.
QuoteFurthermore, I think I would leave the commerical development to SAMBA and the preservation to SPAR. Isn't that what RAP has done? Doesn't RADO deal with the development and RAP the preservation?
Someone like Tony Allegretti could correct me here, but I believe RADO does only development of affordable housing - not commercial development. Yes, RAP does preservation. Springfield is a different community, with many structures that were allowed to deteriorate far beyond most of those in Riverside/Avondale. I'm not for demolition, either, but I'm also not for letting them sit and rot some more while ne'er-do-wells occupy them, and we wait for someone to want to invest more in a property than they might ever see returned (also in a contracting employment and housing market).
Riverside/Avondale Preservation has also benefitted from financial contributions from well-heeled residents, and larger businesses close by (Everbank, Fidelity National Financial) - so much so they are listed as one of the "Jacksonville 80", which are the 80 top-funded non-profits in the city. They have benefitted from residents who have political clout, old family money, and that can use their geographic self-interest in an influential manner. This does not exist in Springfield (the closest thing we have are Mack Bissette and Jack Meeks). Nothing can be done without $.
QuoteOne last thing, I would change the SPAR Council membership dues to $10.00 or make it free membership like the old HSCC did. In a neighborhood where 40% of the citizens earn $15,000 or less, charging $50.00 is cruel.
So how would the work you expect SPAR to do be funded?!?!!? Do you and strider have access to some kind of money tree that is going to make all of this happen? This goes back to one of the main parts of my question that you failed to answer:
QuoteI'd like to hear strider and sheclown's plans for attracting businesses to our commercial corridors or revitalizing the park system (and please be sure to include timelines, budgets, and funding sources).
Quote from: zoo on November 17, 2008, 07:23:35 PM
StephenD is correct in his earlier comments that attracting any business - entrepreneurial, mini-chain or otherwise - in the current contracting retailing climate will be beyond difficult.
If you all aren't happy with the pace at which SPAR is jumping for your meeting request, then I find it surprising you want to wait another decade OR TWO for the corridor to "develop on its own". I, and many other residents, don't.
[/quote]
This is just to muddy the waters. I answered you in good faith.
Now, answer this, are you content with the election/by-law/appointment mess over at SPAR? What do you think ought to be done about it?
If you dont mind me answering that. How do we appoint/elect people if we don't know what their plans are? Understanding what someones goals are is paramount to knowing what kind of officer they are going to be. Bylaws and elections are important, but they are just a technicality in the grander scheme. If you were in charge, what would you do differently, aside from organizational stuff?
I agree with zoo, in as much as, the commercial corridors MUST happen now. We are past the turning point, and if we hope to be a sustainable, walkable community, we must get the things that make it that way. Stores that are safe and clean, coffee shops, clothing stores.
If we are able to build a sustainable commercial corridor, the rest of the residential will fall into place without much more effort. The fasted path to saving the hand full of truly decrepit structures is through a nice 8th and Main St.
QuoteNow, answer this, are you content with the election/by-law/appointment mess over at SPAR? What do you think ought to be done about it?
Wow, you all sure like repetition. I've already answered this question more than once by saying I think the board should hear your questions. They've agreed to do that. And I've indicated that I think their need to reschedule to January is without exclusionary intent and is legitimate for personal/professional reasons.
I have not reviewed the by-laws with a fine-toothed comb re: how many can be elected vs. appointed, term limits, etc., and I've no plan to do so, as my firsthand experience with SPAR has proven to me they have the best interests of the community at heart, and would not intentionally malign, mis-represent or exclude any of Springfield's residents from their process. The board members that have been called out on this thread are all intelligent people, who on a volunteer basis (and in many cases through their wallets), have gone above and beyond what any average community member should be expected to do.
I'm going to continue on doing the things I think will help the community (as I'm sure you will), and we'll have to agree to disagree on the organization's efficacy.
Zoo, let me ask a question or two. How long has SPAR Council been developing their "commercial development" plan? One Week, One Year? Given time, we (those of us who have had the audacity to discuss the recent issues) could and would get a decent plan together.
To be honest, the only reason to ask is to attempt to move attention away from the real issues. It is a common ploy used in politics. Bring up irrelevant issues to muddy the waters. Attack those who are opposing your view of things. Try to sling as much mud as you can. It is exactly what I was hoping for from SPAR Council and yes, even you.
I might also ask, why haven't you bothered to address the actual issues being discussed? . Why is that, Zoo? In case you haven’t gotten them yet, let me repeat them for you one more time. I’ll go slower so maybe you can get them this time.
1) The executive board is not following the by-laws. This is in written record and from current board members.
2)The elections were supposed to be held last October. No one had the authority to not hold elections until the current board changed the by-laws June of 2008 to allow for appointing OR electing all board members. This was once explained as a way to get the “right†people and talents on the board. At the same time, the Governance Board was formed. It was charged with choosing candidates with the “right†talents and abilities and actually running the elections. Instead, it illegally, as the by-laws do not give it this power, determined to not have elections. This is also in written form as minutes of meetings and votes and the actual by-laws.
3) The current Chairman of the Governance Board was appointed the end of last year. His appointment was illegal because he had already served 6 years and though it was “determined†at some point that if one year passed after someone’s last term, they could serve again, this man was appointed before one year was officially up. We were told by a current board member that the board was told “it didn’t matter†by the executive committee. Just another point of not following their own by-laws. In addition to this issue, the appointment process was not legal per the by-laws. Also in written form and from past and current board members.
4) Recently, the names of the board members elected and appointed in various years was posted. Several people who are past and current board members have been involved with this. Based on this information, it is evident that at least three board members should have been up for re-election this past October. Some believe the total number based on some appointments could be six board members. This is based on the actual by-laws and the fact that it does not seem that these people were reappointed as is possibly allowed by the June, 2008 by-laws. The question was asked if they had been re-appointed, but it was not answered and at least one current board member seems to agree that they needed to have been reelected or appointed to be legally on the board right now.
So, those four issues seem to be what is truly relevant in this discussion. If you wish to try to discredit me and this list, please remember that it is not really my list. It belongs to the group that is made up of members, past members, past board members and current board members of SPAR Council and is indeed based on fact that can be supported in black and white.
I will be waiting for you to explain how the city will wish to continue to support an organization that can not and will not follow it’s own laws. Why would LISC wish too as well? What guarantee would or does any of us have that SPAR Council will do anything for the community it says it will when it won’t give us a vote, won’t follow it’s laws and insists that only they know what is best?
This whole deal just sucks. I am sorry but it does.
Everyone wants a great neighborhood. Really, the complaints are pretty small:
More input from the neighborhood (for those that want some), better communication, voting ability; follow our own by-laws.
So SPAR is going to have a meeting...sometime, maybe January now. So what? We should not even be having discussions around why SPAR does not follow its own rules, about why they would attempt to change the rules to take the voice of the neighborhood away from the many and give it to the few. People can come on here and scream about how much SPAR does for the neighborhood (and it does) but that does not negate the issue at hand, SPAR is not following it's own rules, has people on the board that are not eligible, or whose term has ran out, and has attempted to change the by-laws to take the vote away from the neighborhood. As long as this is in place SPAR DOES NOT SPEAK FOR THE NEIGHBORHOOD (and the city will figure that out unless changes are made). SPAR could just clean themselves up you know, they do not need to meet with the community to acknowledge the issues and fix them. This has been going on for a while, long enough to have fixed the issue and been done with it, but instead SPAR has chosen to go down the path of dragging it out as long as possible with many different excuses, and personal attacks by one of the most divisive soon to be, should be already, board members. If they couldn't meet on a specific date in October, why not change the date, now November (same thing), now December (same thing), how about January...think we will actually meet then? For what? If SPAR has the best of the best on the board then just fix yourself! It should not be too hard with all the great talent. If you are not eligible to participate on the board then step down, have elections and let’s all get on with our lives. SPAR does not know who is or is not eligible and/or whose term is up? Well what a freaking JOKE! If you can’t figure this out, then why should anyone trust this board to make decisions for the neighborhood???
Quit making excuses, attacking the voice of dissent, and fix your damn self….
Yes, I am certain the path to revitalization is halfway houses, pawn shops, and Main Street storage space...
The path to revitalization is somewhere between halfway houses and LISC. They say there's nothing new under the sun. My advice would be to take a look at similar neighborhoods that have had success and failure with commercial revitalization. Embraces the avenues of success and avoid the paths of failure or the desire to engrave a new never before seen way of doing things.
THis thread seems to be heading a new way - talking about who has the best chance of successfully helping Main Street.
SO:
Zoo, you said: LISC defined Springfield's trade area (TA) up to MLK. Family Dollar's new store is in our TA and on one of our main commercial corridors (Main St).
How does LISC and SPAR Council getting together to do commercial developement justify including 8 blocks that are not in the historic district and outside of SPAR Council's sphere of influence according to the Articles of Incorporation and the By-laws? As a home owner in that area (New Springfield), I certainly would not want the current SPAR Council representing themselves to businesses and the city as representing my interests. I understand the desire on SPAR Council's part as that part of Main Street is certainly more of a sucess than the first 12 blocks. I would think as it is not a historic district, "new Springfield" would be better off with Metro North.
Downtown parks, you said: Yes, I am certain the path to revitalization is halfway houses, pawn shops, and Main Street storage space...
In a way, it is. By embracing and supporting the existing business, you can more easily attract additional businesses that cater to the largest social- economic group in the community. Stores like Family Dollar, fast food restraunts, lower priced grocery and department stores. Once you have those types of successful retail in place, it is much easier to get the coffee shops, the book stores, the restraunts many want to see. That is just my opinion, others may know better, but it is what I have seen in other cities. Look at the area between 12th and MLK. Is that not what you see there? How much better would Main Street look if half of those stores where between 1st and 8th?
Lakelander,yes, this is what seems to make the most sense: The path to revitalization is somewhere between halfway houses and LISC. They say there's nothing new under the sun. My advice would be to take a look at similar neighborhoods that have had success and failure with commercial revitalization. Embraces the avenues of success and avoid the paths of failure or the desire to engrave a new never before seen way of doing things.
Stephen? I still miss those days - Boomtown, Epicurean and much more that is all now gone....
I dont disagree that gearing businesses towards both the long standing, lower income residents, both of Springfield and of surrounding communities AND the higher income new residents is a good goal. People, regardless of income or race deserve safe clean places to shop and eat. The problem is, many of the businesses in Springfield that have long catered to lower income folks simply dont appeal to those of us who have the ability to make a choice to go else where.
Premier food (or any of its subsequent names) was a great example. People with limited transportation shopped there because it was the only thing going as far as large grocery in the area. Winn Dixie being close second, Main Street Food Lion, Gateway and Riverside Publix all lesser options for someone who is on foot or reliant on public transportation.
I tried shopping at the Premier several times. Every time I came away not wanting to shop there again. Aside from the issues of smell and cleanliness (both are debatable I suppose), the selection was awful, the goods they did have often times were out of date, and generally speaking, it was not a good shopping experience. I now choose to drive the 4 miles to Riverside to shop at Publix. While the parking situation is a mess, I know they will have almost everything I want, and it will be in date and fresh. To add context to the issue, everytime I go there its a veritable Springfield party. I see neighbor upon neighbor shopping over there because for most of us, its the only viable option.
Perfect example DTP! I too notice the neighbor fest, no matter the day or time.
Unfortunately for the Publix goers, it comes down to demographics. Like most urban neighborhoods in this stage of revitalization, Springfield does not have the population numbers (in terms of demographics) for many businesses that newer residents seek. The big boys don't need outside marketing studies to see this. They do a lot of this stuff in-house. With the Publix developments I've helped design, they need at least 20,000 underserved to justify a new store. With Springfield, Winn-Dixie, Food Lion, Publix-Riverside and Publix-Gateway eat into that number. Without embracing a higher population density, it will be a long time before Springfield or Downtown lands another typical 28,000sf - 54,000sf full scale supermarket.
Perhaps a higher priority should be given to how to improve the conditions of our existing businesses. For example, would Premier foods (I know they are closed now) appeal to more residents if it had clean floors, a fresh coat of paint, landscaping, exterior lighting and a better food selection? Can improvements like this be funded by enterprise zone tax credits, grants and the Northwest Trust Fund?
I say this because given the economic climate, it will be easier to improve existing businesses and fill in vacant structures already in standing. This should be important to people who live in the community that do not support them because their success or failure, directly leads to whether the community can appeal to businesses that residents travel out of the neighborhood to access. I'm on the outside looking in, in regards to the SPAR Revolt topic, but this is how I intepret Strider's last post about the revitalization process. Its also one of the first steps most urban commercial districts in America go through in their path to come back to life.
The thing is, Lake, I think that its possible to strike a balance, and appeal to everyone in the neighborhood. Nobody is looking for the Gap and Urban Outfitters to come rushing in and open stores. People just want safe clean environments, and the ability to buy what they want/need. Its a very tall order, but one that I believe can be found
BTW, its worth mentioning, that before the "war" with Hionides, his leasing company was unaccessible, not willing to lease existing buildings, and had razor wire on every fence between 1st and 5th.
Now, anyone wanting to look at the space available can call, get a response, take a tour, and negotiate terms. The razor wire is gone, and while things still aren't exactly peachy, there has been a lot of progress.
Ya know, I think the tone got nasty around here just about the time Stephendare quit playing the 80s video of the day. ;D
I, for one, was a better person back then.
Quote from: downtownparks on November 18, 2008, 11:30:54 AM
The thing is, Lake, I think that its possible to strike a balance, and appeal to everyone in the neighborhood. Nobody is looking for the Gap and Urban Outfitters to come rushing in and open stores. People just want safe clean environments, and the ability to buy what they want/need. Its a very tall order, but one that I believe can be found
I'm just getting in from participating in a commercial corridor revitalization meeting in Springfield. One of the things discussed was finding a way to take advantage of businesses we already have. The balance you mention could come from us, SAMBA and SPAR finding a way to enhance the environments of our existing establishments. Its been mentioned earlier, but its the easiest thing to do for short term improvement. If the businesses operating right now aren't successful as a whole, we can give up the dream of hoping for new places to come in and save the day.
Another thing mentioned in today's meeting was the need to focus on a compact area, as opposed to attempting to tackle multiple blocks. The idea of clustering complementing types of uses needs to be embraced as well. A few years back, Main was on the right path with several establishments open within walking distance of each other. We need to find away to get back to the model that attracted those venues in the beginning. This should be a high priority of everyone who cares for this community.
This is something we have all talked about since the MetJax days.
The problem with Main is, south of 7th, there really isnt a cluster thats usable. Perhaps 3rd and Main can help some, but clustering will almost have to happen at 8th and Main.
In regards to Main, it appears that its best if developed as a general commercial district. Basically, a place filled with neighborhood oriented retail with a mix of commercial uses that have the ability to pull in residents from outside of the area. With the revitalization of a commercial district, we have to focus on a starting point.
The epicenter of 8th & Main is as good as any considering there are a few businesses operating in the area. The storefronts are there, its the heart of the community, Carl's is in position to be decent anchor business for the strip and its a half block from the Jerome Brown's, the Chicken District and 9th & Main space. To the south, even the west side of Main is highly workable between 7th & 5th. 3rd & Main is a kind of isolated, but again its only a short walk to the compact line of storefronts. Existing spots like Shanty, Chan's, A-Z, Mike's auto spot, the post office, Wachovia, etc. play a key role as being elements already in place. So we're not starting from scratch. We just need to focus on finding ways to help improve their businesses and better link them by finding complementing uses for the empty storefronts that separate them.
Btw, evidently the construction of 3rd & Main is encouraging the owner of the gas station across the street to improve his business. Some say we need a well maintained gas station in the area. Perhaps we should work with this existing one and find a way to help his business become that spot. This will be easier than recruiting a new station into the area plus it could create a little synergy with 3rd & Main.
I like blunt. Its easier on the eyes.
The vacuum still exists. There's a ton of vacant storefronts and money flowing out of the community. How did SPAR getting involved create a negative? (please be blunt. I like that.)
SPAR should be able to be a positive today. The best way for a good future is to know and understand the past. This way we all can avoid the mistakes of yesteryear.
The posts have been moved into a new thread, to allow for continued discussion of the business corridor, which is separate from the ongoing discussion concerning SPAR
Quote from: stephendare on November 18, 2008, 02:35:28 PM
lol she clown. Thanks. And what a great idea. I just hate to see Strider attacked for making a stand for what's right.
Strider is the bravest man I know.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 18, 2008, 03:41:07 PM
In regards to Main, it appears that its best if developed as a general commercial district. Basically, a place filled with neighborhood oriented retail with a mix of commercial uses that have the ability to pull in residents from outside of the area. With the revitalization of a commercial district, we have to focus on a starting point.
The epicenter of 8th & Main is as good as any considering there are a few businesses operating in the area. The storefronts are there, its the heart of the community, Carl's is in position to be decent anchor business for the strip and its a half block from the Jerome Brown's, the Chicken District and 9th & Main space. To the south, even the west side of Main is highly workable between 7th & 5th. 3rd & Main is a kind of isolated, but again its only a short walk to the compact line of storefronts. Existing spots like Shanty, Chan's, A-Z, Mike's auto spot, the post office, Wachovia, etc. play a key role as being elements already in place. So we're not starting from scratch. We just need to focus on finding ways to help improve their businesses and better link them by finding complementing uses for the empty storefronts that separate them.
Btw, evidently the construction of 3rd & Main is encouraging the owner of the gas station across the street to improve his business. Some say we need a well maintained gas station in the area. Perhaps we should work with this existing one and find a way to help his business become that spot. This will be easier than recruiting a new station into the area plus it could create a little synergy with 3rd & Main.
This makes perfect sense. It is the easier, cheaper, more equitable way to plan. It is a philosophy of restoration versus development. Let's develop what we have to after we restore what we already have. & P.S. this works for houses too.
I agree that restoration should take first priority in Springfield. But isnt it possible to restore while also sensitively developing the already vacant spaces in the area? I think achieving an appropriate balance and insuring that the new developments are consistent with the old structures and are not too cookie cutter is the key. This is a difficult balancing act but it can be done.
Of course, but if you're working with limited funds its best to reach for realistic goals and not to stretch yourself too thin. Point blank, today's economic conditions make it more feasible to fill and enhance existing vacant spaces and businesses than building from scratch. If residents want a clean gas station, lets attempt to work with the existing ones before going after something not in the area. If residents don't like the decor of certain eating establishments, lets attempt to work with the businesses to improve their ambiance as opposed to chasing chains that won't be coming if the existing businesses fail. This is the most successful proven path for early urban commercial revitalization. Why recreate the wheel and make things more difficult when you don't have too? It reminds me of the State's desire to build a high speed rail line in the middle of I-4 years ago, when enhanced Amtrak service would have been a much more affordable realistic solution. In the end, we wasted millions on studies and ended up with nothing. Nevertheless, by no means does this mean the community can't support and work with new infill when the opportunity arises.
Ennis First of all don't move to Dallas. If I had your talent I would probably move to a bigger city with a well developed mass transit system but we need you too much here in Jacksonville. I moved to Springfield almost six months ago from Baymeadows and 9A where I had everything at my doorstep. I'm a loyal Publix shopper but knew that I wouldn't have one here for a while if ever when I moved. Ennis is absolutely correct about the demographics. The demographics don't support a lot of retail. Springfield is pretty affluent but surrounded by poor areas. National retail won't locate here yet because of the demographics.
Local business will if you let them know you want their business in Springfield. Two of the local businesses that I like are Chan's and Mama Mary's. The key is to keep the dollars in the neighborhood or when you spend dollars outside Springfield let them know. I would like a Sushi Cafe and Mossfire Grill around the corner but they don't see the business potential if you don't let them know when you go to eat in San Marco, Riverside, Southside that you are spending your dollars outside the neighborhood. From the residents I have met so far I think everyone agrees that a wide diversity of businesses is in Springfield's best interest.
I think that city leadership is lacking in the development of our city core which often gets dismissed because of neighborhood politics. John Delaney did a lot to get urban core projects completed on time and on budget. I remember a WJCT show that was probably seen by only a few people in Jax in the early 2000's. He was responding to urban project incentives that have only been completed recently. The host was giving him a hard time about this. His response was that we are putting downtown on sale. We want to make it attractive for high rise development in downtown. We don't have to build any infrastucture and we will more than make up for the incentives in property taxes and sales taxes.
We are lacking this vision with Mayor Peyton. The courthouse and the pocket park are a perfect example.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 18, 2008, 03:41:07 PM
Btw, evidently the construction of 3rd & Main is encouraging the owner of the gas station across the street to improve his business. Some say we need a well maintained gas station in the area. Perhaps we should work with this existing one and find a way to help his business become that spot. This will be easier than recruiting a new station into the area plus it could create a little synergy with 3rd & Main.
what??? can't get my rose in tubes anymore?? come on, get real! You know, Mythbusters confirmed that you really can polish a turd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorodango so I guess anything is possible with this place, but I'm sure they'll still be loaded with 40's, lottos and newports, yeah, gonna go get my drink on.
Not to mention, The guy running it doesnt own it. Petra/Hionides owns it. Would the person holding the lease be willing to make a significant investment without ownership?
Also, does anyone know if they already replaced their tanks? All tanks in florida must be replaced with double lined tanks by next year. If they haven't, I would be surprised if either party spends the hundreds of thousands of dollars it costs. By this time next year, it may be just like the Blue Front and the Speedway.
Karl and Downtownparks? This attitude is exactly why Main Street in Springfield is a ghost town. You need to starting listening to Lake as he is exactly correct in what needs to be done. Belittling any business that now exists in Historic Springfield is counter productive to what we all want. Unfortunately, your attitude is pretty common among the SPAR Council crowd. It indeed needs to change for Springfield to continue to build and be a success.
Are we just assuming the place is a lost cause because its associated with Petra and it sells 40's? Does Hionides control the product mix or does the store owner have a say so in he operates his business? There's money out there for improving these types of properties, both in terms of physical structure and product mix. We just have to do a better job of tapping into the available resources.
Im just asking questions. I would love to see the guy do something. But I also want a realistic assessment of IF he will do something.
I have sat, and in fact, helped put together several meetings with people who own gas stations in Springfield asking to see what sort of help SPAR can give to get the desired result. Most recently, I helped bring Shands, SPAR, COJ, and First Coast Energy together to see what could be done to make Shell at 8th and Boulevard an asset to the community.
Im not sure how this is counter productive. Plus, I actually have spoken to the guy who runs it quite a bit, so please stop assuming you know my "attitude".
Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2008, 10:40:53 AM
Are we just assuming the place is a lost cause because its associated with Petra and it sells 40's? Does Hionides control the product mix or does the store owner have a say so in he operates his business? There's money out there for improving these types of properties, both in terms of physical structure and product mix. We just have to do a better job of tapping into the available resources.
I NEVER SAID IT WAS A LOST CAUSE!!! I was just asking questions. What I meant by "just like blue front and speedway" was I wonder if it will be a convenience store without a gas station. Thats all!
Speaking of counter productive.
Quote from: downtownparks on November 19, 2008, 10:44:01 AM
I NEVER SAID IT WAS A LOST CAUSE!!! I was just asking questions. What I meant by "just like blue front and speedway" was I wonder if it will be a convenience store without a gas station. Thats all!
Understood. Without help, it may end up as a convenience store (although this does not necessarily have to be a bad thing either). However, they may be able to get money from various economic funds to help cover the cost of replacing tanks. One of the things I'm starting to realize is that most don't know that there are resources available. As we move forward, we all have to do a better job of utilizing resources like the Northwest Trust Fund, Enterprise Zone tax credits and even the city's historic preservation fund.
It may already of happened. The tank may be up to standards. I dont know. It was just a question.
When we met with First Coast Energy, we had the manager of the NW trust fund there to explain what sorts of help would be available to them. When we first met with First Coast Energy, they werent even sure if they were going to perform the tank replacement because of the cost. At that time, they speculated they might just sell it.
A few months ago, they did the tank replacement. In the most recent meeting the expressed an interest in doing improvements, but said most of thier money was wrapped up in tank replacement at other stations, and wouldn't be able to look seriously at it until 2010, but were very interested in the opportunity of using NW trust fund money.
That's good to hear. Any improvements in that site would be a huge boost for the community.
Quote from: strider on November 19, 2008, 10:35:37 AM
Karl and Downtownparks? This attitude is exactly why Main Street in Springfield is a ghost town.
ok pollyanna, its all about the tude, got it.
Quote from: strider on November 19, 2008, 10:35:37 AM
You need to starting listening to Lake as he is exactly correct in what needs to be done.
got my listening ears on...........sounds like crickets chirping, let me adjust my hearing aid sonny.
Quote from: strider on November 19, 2008, 10:35:37 AM
Belittling any business that now exists in Historic Springfield is counter productive to what we all want.
any business??? sounds like a bit of a stretch, ok they're ALL AWESOME! hows that, better? now off to get me another 40 and one of those moon pies.
Quote from: strider on November 19, 2008, 10:35:37 AM
Unfortunately, your attitude is pretty common among the SPAR Council crowd. It indeed needs to change for Springfield to continue to build and be a success.
hey now wouldn't have the slightest idea what the SPAR Council Crowds tude is, but sounds like somebody's got an axe to grind....hmmm....yeah ok, and who cares about success, surely not I. The quietness of main street is very comforting and I always find great deals on "used" tools at the pawn shop up on Main, so change schmange it ain't gonna happen, not never! but feel free to use me as an example of whats wrong with poor old Springfield, ok by me. I'm going to FOAD now.
I'm not trying to jump in the middle of this frey (especially as an outsider) but I did notice this from the "Development Assessment".
*Ongoing elimination of commercial businesses providing substantial (substandard?) services to local area residents -Quality food store ... etc.
*Ongoing development of new higher quality commercial services Three Layers coffee house, Premier Pharmacy ...
I really don't know what SPAR's approach is or has been but is this assessment just a purchased endorsement of that approach or is it seen by some here as a truly outside viewpoint?
Sounds like a new form of urban renewal. Whatever it is, the first half of that statement is a crazy assesment as currently described. Instead of taking the approach of elimination, in many cases its better to find a way to enhance what's already in place.
For example, A-Z has decent sandwiches but the building is not appealing to many. Isn't it easier to find out how to get a fresh coat of paint, new windows and better lighting installed as opposed to recruiting a similar style business to move into the neighborhood during bad economic conditions?
Btw, is there an overall uniform vision for Springfield? It should be possible to accomodate the needs of all segments of the local population as long as the market is there.
To be honest, I don't believe there is...and I think this, in part, is what has caused some friction with spar. I agree, that there should be one, and that it should include all segments of the community, with input from all.
Lake, below is the only thing I've ever seen that resembled an agreed upon vision for Springfield:
"The Springfield neighborhood, whose history and diversity make it desirably
different, is the most convenient place in Jacksonville for work and play.
Its refreshed diversity and location north of the downtown core will help
define it as a day- and night-time shopping, sporting and socializing zone
where everyone finds something to enjoy."
This came from the 2006 focus groups, which included some participants from each of the following groups that gave enough of a hoot to participate when asked:
- SPAR membership (not boardmembers)
- Non-SPAR-member residents
- Springfield business owners
You'll notice that diversity, and including things everyone can enjoy, are a big part of this vision statement. But sorry, KP -- I personally hope those that are looking for "rose in tubes" are unable to find anything to enjoy in Springfield.
I totally agree....and I can live without those who want the rose in tubes!
QuoteThis came from the 2006 focus groups, which included some participants from each of the following groups that gave enough of a hoot to participate when asked:
- SPAR membership (not boardmembers)
- Non-SPAR-member residents
- Springfield business owners
Was this through surveys mailed or how was it that the information was collected? And who made up these focus groups?
When you are talking about help here, Lake, are you just talking about cosmetic improvements like with the past commercial facade grants? While helping a business look better, it does nothing to help the business grow. You can see where the grants were spent on a few buildings up Main that have been sitting empty for quite a while now.
To be honest, there are reasons why (none that I agree with, but...) Sammy's would not be freguented by many in Springfield even if it was a sparkling cool store and station. As far as the owner's product mix, he simply must provide the types of products that his current clientele buys - it's what has kept him in business to date. How would spending money on the cosmetics help that or change that?
I guess what I'm afraid of is that this:
*Ongoing elimination of commercial businesses providing substantial (substandard?) services to local area residents -Quality food store ... etc.
*Ongoing development of new higher quality commercial services Three Layers coffee house, Premier Pharmacy ...
…becomes the norm here because too many do not like the businesses that are here now. What is interesting is that I know many who would not go to Premier Pharmacy before, will now that it is a "nice new building" yet the product and service has not changed. Another example is that I know that as Springfield changed so do the products at the Springfield Superette, yet there are some that will not go there. How can the funds you are talking about be used to help in this instance?
In all fairness, I also know that some of our lower income residents would not go into Three layers on their own. Yet they are the main stay for Sammy's. Now that we (sheclown and I) have dragged a few in, the word is out and many of "our" guys, for instance, go there for coffee and "wow, I never knew they did that with coffee!" mochas and lattes. What can be done to change the attitude of residents on both sides of the social economic equation so that the "right" kinds of businesses; those that can cater to all, can and do survive in this economic climate?
Is it not important to consider that when you are talking about convincing everyone to support the current businesses that are here now and to convince the businesses to add to or even change somewhat their product mix to accommodate all residents?
I think the products will change, naturally, as more people request changes. I know, for instance, that I have had an influence on my favorite store, FOOD LION, on Main Street. God, I love that store. I have shopped there for years. The butcher lectures me on the evils of steak, the cashiers ask me where I've been if I skip a day or two -- I had a major complaint about two years ago. I wanted/needed/demanded spinach for salads and they didn't carry that product. I told them, loudly, no spinach, no Sheclown.
They carry two kinds of bagged spinach now.
Stores want to sell products.
BTW, moon pies are awesome.
I'd take a rose-in-a-tube from Strider. You HEAR me STRIDER! Any kind of flower. Any time. Think about it. And I suppose moon pie would pass as chocolate candy.
A to Z could teach us all something about commercial development. They could sing "I'm still standin'..."
I think accommodating ALL residents is key. This goes both ways.
There seems to be an assumption that the businesses that existed here before have not been tried by "new" residents. This is a load of hoo-ey. I have tried most, if not all, of the businesses that are/were on the corridors (after early 2005), with the exception of pawn shops, as I haven't a need for anything they sell.
And every time, I have tried to look for things that I find appealing, rather than things that would prevent me from returning. In some cases, I've found them, but in many cases it seems the businesses didn't want me shopping there any more than some assume I would want to shop there.
Attempts to reach out and support some businesses have been made, but it is only within the past year that some business owners have begun to realize they could do better if they modify their businesses to accommodate ALL residents, as you suggest. Maybe this openness has to do with efforts SPAR/SAMBA have made, or the contracting economy, or the number of suggestions for improvement is finally getting their attention, or some combination or none of the above.
Making businesses welcoming to all residents has to go both ways, not just one way (businesses like 3 Layers should go out of their way to make all feel welcome, but A-Z shouldn't).
Here's an example: Shands employees have supported Jerome Brown's. But many did not want to give it a second shake when their shoes stuck to the floor. Is having sticky floors appealing to ALL residents of Springfield (or any, for that matter?)
Some may not like it, but merchandising, including experience design, matters -- that's why customers will pay $2.50 for a latte or $25.00 for a cake at 3 Layers. Does this apply to Sammy's?!?!? Gasoline is gasoline, right? Well if you consider that he would have to sell 8 colts to equal sales revenues of one bottle of average wine (I'm not saying I want wine there - this is just economic reality), maybe it does...
Quote from: strider on November 19, 2008, 05:46:49 PM
When you are talking about help here, Lake, are you just talking about cosmetic improvements like with the past commercial facade grants? While helping a business look better, it does nothing to help the business grow. You can see where the grants were spent on a few buildings up Main that have been sitting empty for quite a while now.
No. I'm saying if a better looking facility will help increase business its better for the community to focus on making this happen. Sometimes you can get away with fresh coats of paint, landscaping, pressure washing and cleaning the floors. If this is the case, there's no reason to get involved with something as complex as the ill-fated facade grant program. Groups like SAMBA and SPAR could also help with better marketing efforts for Springfield businesses. Sometimes decent solutions to problems don't require breaking the bank. Instead a little creativity is needed. Then when breaking the bank may be necessary, we do have things like the Northwest Trust Fund and Empowerment Zone programs to tap into.
QuoteTo be honest, there are reasons why (none that I agree with, but...) Sammy's would not be freguented by many in Springfield even if it was a sparkling cool store and station. As far as the owner's product mix, he simply must provide the types of products that his current clientele buys - it's what has kept him in business to date. How would spending money on the cosmetics help that or change that?
Springfield is too diverse to pigeon hole the community into two groups. For example, I'm a guy that would stop at 9th & Main one night, be at Jerome Brown's the next and get a cold drink at Sammy's after a hard days work on the loft the following day. On the other hand there are others that would visit 9th & Main but avoid Jerome Browns and some who frequent Jerome Browns but would avoid 9th & Main. This is pretty common in a place as diverse as Springfield.
Anyway, Sammy's will have a new potential pool of customers right next door to his place in a few months. That's a demographics change. While he won't be able to attract everyone, something as simple as cosmetic improvements can get additional open minded people in the door.
QuoteI guess what I'm afraid of is that this:
*Ongoing elimination of commercial businesses providing substantial (substandard?) services to local area residents -Quality food store ... etc.
*Ongoing development of new higher quality commercial services Three Layers coffee house, Premier Pharmacy ...
…becomes the norm here because too many do not like the businesses that are here now. What is interesting is that I know many who would not go to Premier Pharmacy before, will now that it is a "nice new building" yet the product and service has not changed. Another example is that I know that as Springfield changed so do the products at the Springfield Superette, yet there are some that will not go there. How can the funds you are talking about be used to help in this instance?
Premier Pharmacy is a prime example of an existing business that appeals to a wider customer base because of a cleaner facility. I don't know what financial sources they used but the Northwest Jax Trust Fund and Enterprise Zone tax credits can be used in remodeling projects for existing buildings. These types of things can be used to help our business owners improve their facilities without having the burden of footing the entire bill on their own, since their improvements help enhance a distressed community.
QuoteIn all fairness, I also know that some of our lower income residents would not go into Three layers on their own. Yet they are the main stay for Sammy's. Now that we (sheclown and I) have dragged a few in, the word is out and many of "our" guys, for instance, go there for coffee and "wow, I never knew they did that with coffee!" mochas and lattes. What can be done to change the attitude of residents on both sides of the social economic equation so that the "right" kinds of businesses; those that can cater to all, can and do survive in this economic climate?
There's no single answer, its a mix of things. These can include better marketing of what is already existing in the community or better exterior signage for individual establishments. For example, I just found out that there is a Quinzo's inside of FCCJ's campus. I didn't know about Carl's Sunday buffet or Jerome's BBQ beef sandwich and sweet lemonade until I went in those places. Better marketing can help with situations similar to what I described above. Other things include residents making a personal effort to support local businesses and engaging business owners with ideas that can improve their service. Its also important to accept that every place is not going to appeal to every single resident. We also don't have too. Our major streets are used daily by people traveling through the community. This is another market to tap into.
I dont post often, but I have to add...
as a current small bussiness owner in the neighborhood-
Lake is a voice of reason in the whole disscussion. Dead on about everything.
I
Quote from: triclops i on November 19, 2008, 07:23:49 PM
I dont post often, but I have to add...
as a current small bussiness owner in the neighborhood-
Lake is a voice of reason in the whole disscussion. Dead on about everything.
I
I agree. Lake is very wise.
I noticed the BP on 8th is now open, anyone been there yet? It is clean, well lit and so far has kept the "hanging out in front and drinking a beer I will later throw on the ground" crowd out, but I wonder how long that will last if neighbors don't start shopping there? the gas prices are reasonable too.... I would say it is a heck of a deal when you consider the shell at the other end of 8th!
Has anyone even stopped to say hi? How about something in the SPAR newsletter? Anything at all to keep this place nice, clean, and safe for the neighborhood? I think this new BP will be a meter to measure how serious all the talk is about getting decent places in here....we will see if the neighborhood is serious, or not.
Thanks for that post!
I will fill up there next time. Anyone interested in the business corridor ought to be buying gas in the neighborhood. That's simple enough.
UTG. I have been getting my gas there the last few times. Its clean enough, but it feels very thrown together to me, and they are doing the same thing every other convenience store in the neighborhood is. They have two huge open face coolers filled to the brim with singles of every malt beverage you could ask for...
Quote from: downtownparks on November 19, 2008, 09:19:46 PM
UTG. I have been getting my gas there the last few times. Its clean enough, but it feels very thrown together to me, and they are doing the same thing every other convenience store in the neighborhood is. They have two huge open face coolers filled to the brim with singles of every malt beverage you could ask for...
Don't like the single beer sales? Oh, well. I really don't either, but it is what works in many areas of Jacksonville right now. If all the others do it, he must as well to compete. If enough of his regular clientele doesn't partake, then they won't be needed.
Your post, by the way, liens towards being....oh, never mind. Just be aware that if you (and lots of others) continue with that type of attitude, this place will for sure "end up like all the others". Which will probably be OK with the owner and the majority of Springfield.
QuoteTo quote Zoo:
Some may not like it, but merchandising, including experience design, matters -- that's why customers will pay $2.50 for a latte or $25.00 for a cake at 3 Layers. Does this apply to Sammy's?!?!? Gasoline is gasoline, right? Well if you consider that he would have to sell 8 colts to equal sales revenues of one bottle of average wine (I'm not saying I want wine there - this is just economic reality), maybe it does...
I pay $ 2.50 (or is it $ 2.79?) for a latte or $4.50 for a piece of cake because it is about the going rate. The coffee is better for not much more that Gate's. I do not pay more because the place looks cool. If the prices were much higher than it‘s competition, I would not buy there. OK, in this case, I would because I like the owners and I want them to succeed and I know it's tough out there. But still, nothing to do with how fancy the place is. Not clean? I have issues. But if the food, service, etc is good enough, I might look the other way, or, in some cases, try not to look at all. But still buy there. The best ribs I have ever had came from a place that I did not want to see....someone else got them for me most of the time.
As far as 8 Colts to get that same revenue as a bottle of wine? Fancy and clean or plain and just OK, if no one buys that bottle of wine, the owner is better off selling those 8 cans of Colt.
I think the point here is that this is not a cut and dried "if you clean it they will come" issue. How do you get that balance so all are happy with a store? Lake has suggested that you may not have to. Just support the businesses that are there even if you may not actually want to buy there. Support can be from many different avenues. Like helping them do better with their current market, even if it doesn't include everybody. It seems to me that successful businesses of one type can attract other businesses of differing types.
It leans towards being honest, and (GASP) giving my opinion.
I believe your theory is flawed, in as much as, no business is going to move here because of our ability to support 6 convenient stores whose main staples are malt beverages and 25cent cakes. Businesses are going to move here initially because someone believes Springfield is place they can grow.
Again, the word "upscale" keeps getting thrown out there. Nobody expects Macys to set up shop on Main St. All most people really want is clean, safe, and inviting. Consistent and reliable service comes in a very close second.
Now, I do agree, there are business models that can survive better in a community like this. Certain types of restaurants and stores that appeal to people across the socioeconomic spectrum.
There really isnt a whole lot of guess work here. There are models to follow.
I personally believe our biggest problem is the lack of immediately usable space. There is almost nowhere on Main St that a Mom and Pop on a shoe string budget could even think about renting and being able to have it up and operating in short order. I think that were that space to exist, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The few businesses that have broken the existing models were isolated.
We keep hearing about all of these businesses that were run out of Springfield, and as a regular to most of them, it really boiled down to four spaces. 9th and Main, Epicurean, The Antique Store, and Boomtown. Several of the others previously listed cohabitated with other listed businesses. Carls and A-Z have been overlooked for years and to be honest, I am not sure why. Chans is an institution that could stand on its own two feet no matter where its located. It has no real interest in working with anyone in the community, because it doesn't have to.
Main St Restaurant didn't open until Boomtown was gone, and by then 9th and Main was in the beginning stages of its death spiral.
TSI didnt open until later, and frankly, almost no one in Springfield knew it existed until it moved to Bay Street. The Pearl, Shanty, and three layers have gotten a lot of support from the community, but they all came way later.
My point is (and I have no doubt it will be whole heartedly disagreed with) the approach to Main Street has never been cohesive, and as Lake has brought up before, there has been very little clustering.
How awesome would it have been to have all of those businesses open up at 1st and Main, near Hola (aka Park View Cafe, Slice of NY, ect, ect), downtown, and FCCJ. Instead of at 6th and Main, 7th and main, and 9th and Main.
Quote from: downtownparks on November 19, 2008, 09:19:46 PM
UTG. I have been getting my gas there the last few times. Its clean enough, but it feels very thrown together to me, and they are doing the same thing every other convenience store in the neighborhood is. They have two huge open face coolers filled to the brim with singles of every malt beverage you could ask for...
Well....what should they be stocking? I don't think I have seen a convenience store in JAX that does not stock signle malt beverages. Even the Walmart gas shops have three coolers filled with beer..
What should a convenience store stock to be acceptable and accepted by Springfield?
Its not whats acceptable or not acceptable. I guess I just wish the were a little less obvious about it. My wifes African Iris' are about the distance it takes to drink 1 beer from the blue front on Laura, and I get tired of pulling cans out of them.
I don't so much care that the stores carry the singles, that's a staple that they all carry. I don't care for the stores that have the rose tubes, they can get by without a single sale of them. The ones that stock the steel wool scrubber pads right up front are a dead give away also, I don't care what they say, they are supporting the crackheads. I think that for the BP on 8th to survive they have to keep the low lifes out and keep their gas price competetive. They must also promote the fact that they're now open. I live right down the street, literally within walking distance, and I didn't know that they were open yet. As far as the "low lifes" I don't care how anyone interprets this. In my opinion, the " low lifes" are the ones that hang out in front of the stores and ask, relentlessly, for money or a ride or anything. They bother the customers and are disturbing to the more timid. I will not allow my kids to go to the store at 8th and Walnut, eventhough we are only one block away, because of the scum that hangs out there. We will only go there in an emergency. If they were to clean it up, I could use it regularly, but with the work pool right across the street that is not likely to happen.
I too, only go there in an 'emergency' which is pretty rare. You're absolutely right, in that it's the low lifes from that work pool that hang outside, beg for money or cigarettes and just make walking into the store annoying. I just have real issue with walking past a bunch of drunken, annoying people that are curisng and loud.
I also agree about the new BP station....if their prices are competitive, then I won't gas up there.
8th and Walnut is rough. As is the one on East 1st.
But, I think they are changing, slowly, as the neighborhood changes. 3rd and Market is so much better than it used to be. I go in there now whereas years ago, I wouldn't have dreamed about it. There was a funny little store on 6th and Market. I used to go in there, even though it seemed rough because the clerks seemed concerned about my welfare. And I think that it the key. I can deal with trouble makers outside if I know that inside the clerk is paying attention and the place is not loaded down with trouble.
I remember going to this wonderful restaurant called Denmark's on 21st Street and Moncrief. That place was packed and when I walked through the door, all activity stopped and everyone stared at me. Although I was a bit nervous, I walked up to the counter, was greeted kindly, ordered and ate the best chicken, greens, and cornbread. After I had been there several times, I was told that first time, that they thought I was from the Health Department ;D
That is what is exciting about living in a city, rose-in-tubes or not. Unlike going into chains (which could be anywhere USA) going out is an adventure, a crap shoot which sometimes means moon pies and sometimes wonderful little places like Momma Mary's for example.
We really need to celebrate this.
She Clown you hit it on the head !
As for the competiveness... BP is always a little higher, but at $1.99 they are in the market and it is worth an extra couple of cents a gallon to buy local, at least to me. If we want clean businesses, and especially a decent gas station we can use without all the rif raf harrassing us, we may need to accept the small increase in price.
reds comments bring me back to the "Has anyone from SPAR or SAMBA reached out to the BP owner"? He may not even know about SPAR or SAMBA and catching these places early one, supporting them so they don't decline is the key, it is easier this way, then after the steel wool is moved to the counter... A little blurb in the next newsletter could help too... ;)
I do know that SAMBA has reached out to him.
I seem to remember Louise saying she had talked to him while he was building the place out.
I thought I saw a blurb about both A-Z sandwiches & the BP in the latest newsletter or it may have been the Womans Club Blossom. Maybe a biz directory of sorts for all of the greater Springfield businesses would be in order.
Nothing fancy. A few page flyer, front & back, with ALL the businesses listed, what they offer and the hours they are open, at least.
Great idea.
That is awesome news guys!
Hopefully he will join the fold.
Roadking... I thinkthatis a great idea, I would be willing to help out on that.
02roadking,
A Springfield business directory has been talked about and will be addressed...
Well, then you should be able to solve all of the neighborhoods problems, as you know everything. That was easy.
Stephen, at the height of the district you remember, what were the establishments operating at the same time along Main Street? What buildings did they occupy? Also what year was this?
I think this is an important thing to visually understand. Nothing is new under the sun. Something caused a number of things to cluster together in a relatively short time period and they died for a reason. So there are good and bad things to learn from this experience.
If we all can put personal feelings aside, we may be able to expose methods of urban redevelopment that need to be repeated and others we need to avoid.
Quote from: stephendare on November 20, 2008, 10:41:46 AM
Being the owner of Boomtown, and the former roomate of the guys who own TSI, and having shared a few employees with Jim from the Main Street Bakery, and having gone to high school with Steve Warren who opened the Maxx Pizza Factory, a twenty year associate of Christie Clark who owns The Pearl (enough to have produced a two hour musical theater peice with her as one of the main characters) I have to say that the above described timeline in no way resembles either the truth or what happened.
Also, having learned from Carl how the facade program worked, having shared employees and retained the produce services of Epicurean, and discussed the situation on main street many times with the owners of Chans, having rented from one of the Pawn Shops, and done extensive business with the different branches of the Bateh family which owns Premier Pharmacy is a cousin of the A-Z sandwich shop guy, and a branch of which owned the building that Boomtown was in, hung out extensively with the Eritrean guys who own the convenience store on Hubbard and 8th and having loved Anita and Carlos who own the salon for the better part of the past 8 years, and having worked on several projects with Oak Sun who owned Kemet House before it converted into the Epicurean, that none of the SPAR opinions expressed on this thread have even the barest resemblance to what has actually happened in the retail district or what any of us actually think or have experienced.
There is a lot of talk about 'business models' on the part of people who could not accurately describe an urban business plan if they needed to.
Does anyone have a broom I can borrow to sweep up all the names Stephen is dropping? :D
BTW, what is the second half of the story? Specifically, why are none of the aforementioned businesses still around? Can you please give us some details, Stephen?
Amen.
Quote from: stephendare on November 20, 2008, 12:38:37 PM
So Lake, what is the common element you read in all of these articles that caused businesses to open in a cluster formation?
From the articles and knowing the landscape (in no particular order):
1. availability of existing buildings
2. affordability for urban pioneers to move start up businesses in
3. a common vision or brand - a district with the arts as a major theme
4. a compact cluster - most of this stuff was between 6th & 9th Streets.
QuoteTen art houses are scheduled to open in Springfield over the next two years. What's more, a growing number of artists and musicians are living and working there.
Springfield's proximity to downtown and cheap real estate have lured hopefuls to the area. But it's a new vision for the arts that keeps them there.
The things that caused these businesses to locate there in the first place are no different than what caused Five Points, Ybor City (Tampa), Deep Ellum (Dallas), E. 6th Street (Austin) and a host of other urban entertainment districts to come alive.
Its important to design/fill in according to the existing landscape conditions. The area around 8th & Main sets up perfectly for some type of themed district because of the available buildings. The area around the 3rd & Main project is probably better for higher end clientele because it contains large vacant lots that require the investment of new buildings.
Time wise, if we want instant improvement, its better/easier/cheaper to focus on filling the existing vacant storefronts with businesses that complement one another. We already have anchors like Chan's, the bike shop, Shantytown, Carl's and even the pawn shops that we should build around. The vacant storefronts are there and businesses like Uncommon Grounds have been begging to move in.
As for the higher end niche, 3rd & Main should help in this area and spur additional development nearby. Its just going to take longer, given the economic climate and the need for new building construction. Again, there's room for all in this community. The key is to find a way to let our different market segments co-exist without either side trying to kill the other.
One of the things I heard from the business owners that had a couple of those businesses is that you can not depend on the community itself to support your business. Bud told me that when he moved his business from next to the pawn shops down further to nicer digs, he lost a lot of walk-in business that he badly needed. The majority of the "regulars" at Epicurean were not from Springfield. Making a small, local business a success is very, very hard to start with. Being sucessful in an area like Springfield in it's early growth state is even tougher.
To be honest, we can talk about the rents being too high or the community not supporting the businesses all day long and get nowhere. The basic cause of Main Street being a ghost town is partly due to those factors, but also Main Street itself. It was due to be redone, as it is being done. Everyone knows what happens to businesses when a street is torn up for a couple of years. My sister's business in Ohio went through that same process and while her business is not dependent on walk-ins what so ever, the construction still hurt her alot. Everyone was waiting as much as anything. If the economy hadn't taken a dump, then I think we would have seen a lot of activity on Main once it was done. Now, it will be a struggle and will need a lot more help to get it moving.
Quote from: RiversideGator on November 20, 2008, 04:24:19 PM
BTW, what is the second half of the story? Specifically, why are none of the aforementioned businesses still around? Can you please give us some details, Stephen?
From a customer's perspective and what I personally remember of some of those that failed or left SPR:
- Boomtown - awesome food. crappy building that leaked owned by a crappy landlord forcing Stephen to move downtown.
- Epicurean - $8 peanut butter sandwiches. seriously? $8?
- Pizza Maxx - awesome pizzas. Wasn't this a conflict between the owners?
- SPR Emporium - I bought a few items. But I am just not into antiques.
- Henriettas/9th& Main - my favorite place to eat and hang out, ruined by CVH
- Main St Grill/Bakery - $12 grey meat hamburgers on squishy white bread, always out of items, 45 minutes to get a forgotten order of fries, and the owners lost much of their core SPR support after slamming the residents in the newspapers.
WE know the outstanding businesses in SPR, and where they are located. But those who don't live in SPR drive through and still see blight. Kind of like when I drive through Regency...just get me through and out of there.
So to repeat (and agree with) what has already been said: cluster businesses, improve the ambiance of Main St, and look outside the neighborhood for customers.
Phil
A few photos of my business corridor walkabout yesterday, as well as some shots of the Florence Court Apts (now Section 8, once the Old Florida Hotel, and hopefully a better-looking, higher/best use anchor for the corner someday).
(http://srghomes.com/images/nov_mainst_phase2opt.jpg)
From Main/8th looking south at west side of street being prepped for capping.
(http://srghomes.com/images/carlsopt.jpg)
Carl's
(http://srghomes.com/images/mainst_wsidesidewlk_opt.jpg)
New sidewalks & brick insets
Pressure washing the Florence Court
(http://srghomes.com/images/florct_extopt.jpg)
(http://srghomes.com/images/florct_presswashopt.jpg)
Historic details
(http://srghomes.com/images/florct_intstairopt.jpg)
(http://srghomes.com/images/florct_entrytileopt.jpg)
(http://srghomes.com/images/florct_kluthoopt.jpg)
Misc
(http://srghomes.com/images/florct_viewfromopt.jpg)
(http://srghomes.com/images/florct_rearstairopt.jpg)
(http://srghomes.com/images/florct_trashsignopt.jpg)
Trying to keep it clean...
Great update. Its nice to see the Florence Court getting a bath. I also like the letter tenant #212 put up.
Who is current owner of Florence Court?
Awesome pics ZOO!
I always wondered what Florence Court looked like inside, and I am not surprised to see the beautiful moasiacs.
Gotta love #212 handwritten sign, wonder if it works I could put one out front of my house!
Reading and writing lessons... room 212... :D
How about spelling lessons for the creator/author of that sign? It's "those" not "thoes."
Heights Unknown
??? Zoo didn't make fun of anyone.
No, in fact it was the comment by Heights Unknown, that referenced the misspelled word...and IMO, the comment wasn't needed or part of the discussion of the business corridor. Let's keep things on topic people.
That would and certainly could work out
I don't see a tone making fun of anyone in the post with images, but to each his own.
QuoteBut you know what? If you kept the top floors section 8, provided an attractive exterior and opened up the ground floor to retail, there wouldnt be a damned thing wrong with the use of the building for affordable housing.
This would be a higher/better use of a major anchor spot along that block. I don't think anyone on this board would complain if that happened.
It would be wonderful to have the bottom floor opened up for retail.
Kepenig tinhgs on tpoic and seplling croctrly at the smae tmie is ecerisxe for the cbrereialy gftied. But if you fnid you can raed tihs amolst as fsat as a croctrly sepeleld pecie olny tehn wlil you see the mnid gmae of the eelete. Frnakly I dno't gvie a Danm!
Oklwackaha
Just a quote from a different thread, but goes to attitude among some that live in the community:
QuoteCan't wait until the government bulldozes all the H.U.D. properties.
The statement was made because the crime stats are higher for this zip code around "certain properties". So this quote is asking and hoping that places like Flourence Court apartments be torn down. There are some badly run or mis managed properties, but many do blame all lower income properties for all the crime.
I think Stephen and others fear that if some of the more promient people in the community feel this way, how do you truly make progress? How do you convince that owner to get a grant, increase their costs and improve their property when the owner knows many just want them gone?
We (Laura St between 5th&6th) had a lot of success with engaging the property managers/owners of Flagship, getting JSO's legal department involved, meeting the residents of the HUD housing, and keeping up the pressure that a safe property is the right of everyone, not just home owners or middle-class and above.
Improvements were made to the Flagship Property on 6th St W and it has been a long time since we've seen serious problems. And the residents I've met from that property are really happy with the changes.
Proving that there is a happy medium.
A pretty nasty comment about HUD housing, indeed.
We have a section 8 building on our block. It is well kept and we have no complaints about the property and its residents are valued members our block community. I couldn't imagine living here without our "Block Mom," an older resident of the same apartment for 14 years, who watches out for everything. We all watch each other's properties, share pies and plants, watch each other's kids...in other words, we're neighbors.
Section 8 is the same as any other rental property, a good landlord is essential.