The Forgotten Skyway Plan
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7668-sears-1972.jpg)
When long term Downtown master plans continue to be rewritten with each mayoral administration, it's hard to achieve anything at all. The Skyway may be the most visible example of changed priorities, incomplete vision, and poor execution.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/940
Good article ... move those 60,000 jobs from SouthPoint / Baymeadows downtown and the Skyway and downtown would be crowded. When the Skyway was being planned, those were cow pastures and sand dunes.
Also, I seem to recall there was supposed to be a major development - not unlike the current "Bay Street Station" plan around the Jefferson Station.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 18, 2008, 06:32:46 AM
Good article ... move those 60,000 jobs from SouthPoint / Baymeadows downtown and the Skyway and downtown would be crowded. When the Skyway was being planned, those were cow pastures and sand dunes.
Also, I seem to recall there was supposed to be a major development - not unlike the current "Bay Street Station" plan around the Jefferson Station.
I believe that was the Bucky Clarkson hotel plan. If I am not mistaken it was going to be 23 stories and possibly a Marriott.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 18, 2008, 06:32:46 AM
move those 60,000 jobs from SouthPoint / Baymeadows downtown and the Skyway and downtown would be crowded.
Exactly. It amazes me to see how much downtown has fallen off in such a short period of time.
QuoteWhen long term Downtown master plans continue to be rewritten with each mayoral administration, it's hard to achieve anything at all. The Skyway may be the most visible example of changed priorities, incomplete vision, and poor execution.
I blame Hazouri & Austin. They should have finished it, especially after the city was awarded the Jaguars, they should have made it a priority to get the Skyway down Bay Street. I still don't know what the COJ is waiting on. Why let the Town Center go to Gate Parkway when it could have easily been in that craphole they call a parking lot on Bay & Jefferson. BACKWARDS....There needs to be some sort of incentive to build near the Skyway. Peyton like Austin & Hazouri has done nothing! Who's next already?
Quote from: 9a is my backyard on November 18, 2008, 11:50:54 AM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 18, 2008, 06:32:46 AM
move those 60,000 jobs from SouthPoint / Baymeadows downtown and the Skyway and downtown would be crowded.
Exactly. It amazes me to see how much downtown has fallen off in such a short period of time.
Dont forget St Jonhs Town center, that would get people downtown.
Quote from: Coolyfett on November 18, 2008, 04:47:13 PM
There needs to be some sort of incentive to build near the Skyway.
Do any such incentives exist? What's the main roadblock keeping businesses out of downtown? I know rents are high, there's little foot traffic, and it's hard to deal with COJ, but would it be possible to set up some kind of program to subsidize rents for a few years to help businesses get on their feet?
Very good article, I remember when sears was downtown.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 18, 2008, 07:48:02 PM
Quote from: 9a is my backyard on November 18, 2008, 11:50:54 AM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 18, 2008, 06:32:46 AM
move those 60,000 jobs from SouthPoint / Baymeadows downtown and the Skyway and downtown would be crowded.
Exactly. It amazes me to see how much downtown has fallen off in such a short period of time.
Dont forget St Jonhs Town center, that would get people downtown.
Would it? Is that what the Landing was supposed to do?
Quote from: copperfiend on November 19, 2008, 08:29:23 AM
Would it? Is that what the Landing was supposed to do?
The Landing and the Town Center are two completely different animals.
If Town Center was Downtown people would go. Maybe not as many but people would go.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 18, 2008, 07:48:02 PM
Dont forget St Jonhs Town center, that would get people downtown.
SJTC couldn't go downtown, though. The design is such that it just couldn't exist there.
Then make a design that would fit, plenty of land downtown on the Northbank.
Another thing the Landing never had the kind of dining and shopping that the St. Jonhs Town Center has.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 19, 2008, 07:00:52 PM
Then make a design that would fit, plenty of land downtown on the Northbank.
Yep, there sure is. Where the Bay Street Station is
suppose to go, would have been a great location. The area where the Kings Avenue Station is being built could have also had the same type of developments. I am not even sure SJTC is inside the 295 Beltway...
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 19, 2008, 07:00:52 PM
Then make a design that would fit, plenty of land downtown on the Northbank.
Then it might not be so popular. You change the design and you change what it is. You pick it up and put it downtown and you have a bunch of isolated one-story shops surrounded by enormous surface lots NOT contributing to the urban connectivity downtown. All I'm saying is, dreaming we could move the Baymeadows/Southpoint office complexes downtown and convert them to more appropriate urban office space is conceivable (though I'd bet quite a few businesses would tell you that they're happier in a suburban campus environment than in a downtown). But the SJTC is not as likely to translate as well and still have the same kind of success with the same demographic.
Anyway, sorry if I sound too argumentative. I just made a comment earlier and felt I should back it up since I had already thrown my hat in the ring. I've never studied urban planning of any sort, so this is all just my opinion.
I think we need to get out of that mind set. I do believe this though with all the new shopping and dining many which are new to this area you cant possibly believe that people would not go. Also, stop thinking about the layout because if it were built like any other mall people would still go because they offer many other extras not located else where. Example--last yr I picked up my mom from 103rd st and took her to the Cheescake factory for mothers day, why 1, she is my mom and 2 she's never been to a Cheesecake factory before. So I do believe some one comming from the Southside would do the same if this was downtown.
If the city some how was able to build a new convention center, why not transfer the old center along with the new transportation hub into something similar to SJTC. Theres alot of land lining they skyway(the grassy area where people park) that could be shops/resturants etc. A skyway station is already in place there. If the day ever comes where light rail is connected to many of our neigborhoods you catch a train downtown shop, eat, attend an event, use the skyway to get to other parts of downtown if needed, then catch the train back home with out even leaving your neighborhood. I think that's one idea or direction we should be headed in. Oh and ProjectMaximus I didn't think you were being argumentive. I do believe most of us here want the same thing a functional downtown/better transit. ;D
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 20, 2008, 01:22:31 AM
I think we need to get out of that mind set. I do believe this though with all the new shopping and dining many which are new to this area you cant possibly believe that people would not go. Also, stop thinking about the layout because if it were built like any other mall people would still go because they offer many other extras not located else where. Example--last yr I picked up my mom from 103rd st and took her to the Cheescake factory for mothers day, why 1, she is my mom and 2 she's never been to a Cheesecake factory before. So I do believe some one comming from the Southside would do the same if this was downtown.
If the city some how was able to build a new convention center, why not transfer the old center along with the new transportation hub into something similar to SJTC. Theres alot of land lining they skyway(the grassy area where people park) that could be shops/resturants etc. A skyway station is already in place there. If the day ever comes where light rail is connected to many of our neigborhoods you catch a train downtown shop, eat, attend an event, use the skyway to get to other parts of downtown if needed, then catch the train back home with out even leaving your neighborhood. I think that's one idea or direction we should be headed in. Oh and ProjectMaximus I didn't think you were being argumentive. I do believe most of us here want the same thing a functional downtown/better transit. ;D
Thanks, Keith. BTW, I've finally recognized you from the CD forums. I see all these names all over the place but I now distinctly recognize you on both sites.
Anyway, I understand what you're saying, and you've got some nice ideas, but I just think that in this case you might as well say why don't we build an awesome new downtown mall instead of making any reference to SJTC at all.
Probably not it will just be repeating what we have already, guess they will have to use a different angle.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 20, 2008, 12:34:18 AM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 19, 2008, 07:00:52 PM
Then make a design that would fit, plenty of land downtown on the Northbank.
Then it might not be so popular. You change the design and you change what it is. You pick it up and put it downtown and you have a bunch of isolated one-story shops surrounded by enormous surface lots NOT contributing to the urban connectivity downtown. All I'm saying is, dreaming we could move the Baymeadows/Southpoint office complexes downtown and convert them to more appropriate urban office space is conceivable (though I'd bet quite a few businesses would tell you that they're happier in a suburban campus environment than in a downtown). But the SJTC is not as likely to translate as well and still have the same kind of success with the same demographic.
Anyway, sorry if I sound too argumentative. I just made a comment earlier and felt I should back it up since I had already thrown my hat in the ring. I've never studied urban planning of any sort, so this is all just my opinion.
Its all good man, the more it is discussed the popular the subject becomes. So keep the Skyway talk coming.
Blame it on the annexing of the city to the county in 1968 in order not to desegregate the city. Since then it has been nothing but bad zoning policies and funding issues unable to manage and maintain the amount square miles this city is for the limited median income of its inhabitants that can't raise the required tax dollars needed. Tax incentives need to be given to the companies and developers that are willing to move back into the downtown area rather than be given to the developers that continue to the stretch suburban limits with office parks and bad cookie cutter neighborhoods.
If the rail system connected the people from where they lived to where they worked it could be successful, but as it is presently built and run it won't be a success. I shouldn't be able to walk the distance of two stops faster that the tram can take me. Not to mention the walk from the King Street Station parking garage is farther that the first stop on the tram.
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 22, 2008, 11:14:48 AM
If the rail system connected the people from where they lived to where they worked it could be successful, but as it is presently built and run it won't be a success. I shouldn't be able to walk the distance of two stops faster that the tram can take me. Not to mention the walk from the King Street Station parking garage is farther that the first stop on the tram.
Call this a bit confusing, but the "tram" is which? The Monorail Train, or, the Fake PCT Trolleys?
Either way, we don't have a system really. A couple of mile long random lines that start nowhere and go noplace doesn't a system make. And those Tram-Fake-Potato-Chip-Truck-Trolley-Things, I want to be there when we push them off a barge to create artifical reefs... Oh hell, no self respecting game fish would use them either, they'll become the breeding grounds for Skates, and Urchins. OCKLAWAHA
Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the elevated ghost train (people mover, which it was originally called) that nobody rides, except for novelty.