Before the housing bust, all of Florida major cities, and some small to mid-sized cities were experiencing a construction boom in their downtowns; espescially with the residential high rises. Now that the party's over and there has been and now is a significant downturn in downtown construction projects, how is Jacksonville stacking up against other Florida major cities, and Florida cities in general in this area?
I've had the chance to view most of Florida major and small to mid sized cities and the construction in their downtown areas and construction has either diminished or come to a screeching halt. Jacksonville in particular is now seeing very small to mediocre projects under construction and almost no major projects in the planning or proposition stage. However, compared to other Florida Cities, it appears that Jacksonville is lagging behind.
That being said, I have come up with a listing and ranking of what Florida cities are ahead and which ones are behind in the downtown projects/development(s) construction race; they are:
1) Miami
2) Miami Beach/South Beach
3) Hollywood
4) Hallandale
5) Fort Myers
6) St. Petersburg
7) Tampa
8) Orlando
9) Fort Lauderdale
10) Jacksonville
I believe these are pretty accurate. Tampa and Orlando are almost neck and neck. I know most of you will argue whether Jacksonville is dead last in this top 10 but from what I've seen relative to other Florida cities downtown construction projects, not much is now happening in downtown Jax, and Jax is in fact behind all other Florida cities. Let us know what your list and rankings are!
Heights Unknown
I read an article about a year ago that downtown Miami had 24,000 condo expected to be completed in the next two years. This is on top of all the vacant units that they already have. Don't think you will see any construction there for a while once the current projects are completed. I will be in Miami for Christmas. Looking forward to checking it out first hand.
I was in Miami in July for my B-day, its amazing the amount of construction that has taken place down there. So many new towers and not to mention there new Carnival Center. There skyline is off the chain. I could only dream of Jax having a skyline like that.
If only the St. John could have broke ground before the market downturn. That building would have had a dramatic change to our skyline.
Yes and shipyards. :'(
Someone mentioned in another thread that Jax is probably dead last in stacking up to other Florida cities relative to new construction and developments; I would agree whole heartedly with this assertion. The projectss we do have on the table are small to mediocre projects. Hopefully as the market gloom and doom clears, there will be resumation of construction downtown.
Heights Unknown
I'll be in South Florida this weekend. I'll take the camera down with me.
Will be glad to see those pics Lake; get ready everybody for sour grapes, bitter lemons, and "green with envy" once you see those pics that Lake will take. I hate to say it but Jax's skyline is now dead last, in my opinion, of all of Florida's major cities; even St. Petersburg (they have many cranes up now) has overtaken Jax in the skyline and skyscraper race, not in sheer tallness, but numer of talls.
And oh, one more thing y'all; I know that people make a City; but we all are skyscraper enthusiasts in this forum; yes, all of us. We love those full, heavy, and dense skylines with talls and super talls.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 11, 2008, 07:10:24 PM
I was in Miami in July for my B-day, its amazing the amount of construction that has taken place down there. So many new towers and not to mention there new Carnival Center. There skyline is off the chain. I could only dream of Jax having a skyline like that.
yes...we should definitely be envious of the condo cavern that Miami has become....I was there for a conference last month and downtown Miami still feels like a ghost town at night...kind of like NYC in "I am Legend".
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 12, 2008, 02:40:32 PM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 11, 2008, 07:10:24 PM
I was in Miami in July for my B-day, its amazing the amount of construction that has taken place down there. So many new towers and not to mention there new Carnival Center. There skyline is off the chain. I could only dream of Jax having a skyline like that.
yes...we should definitely be envious of the condo cavern that Miami has become....I was there for a conference last month and downtown Miami still feels like a ghost town at night...kind of like NYC in "I am Legend".
Yes in all its greatness it is nothing but condos and hotels mostly, but for someone who likes tall buildings its a dream come true. The drive from south beach into the city makes my mouth water. hmmm all those new condos who's buying them, whens the last time Miami put up a significant office tower?
And.......I'll bet 80 to 90 percent of those residential talls and supertalls are empty; I guess they're really banking on, "build it and they will come!"
Heights Unknown
Well, eventually the highrises will be filled and they will have a vibrant area there. The banks may go bankrupt but the buildings are still there.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 12, 2008, 07:06:57 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 12, 2008, 02:40:32 PM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 11, 2008, 07:10:24 PM
I was in Miami in July for my B-day, its amazing the amount of construction that has taken place down there. So many new towers and not to mention there new Carnival Center. There skyline is off the chain. I could only dream of Jax having a skyline like that.
yes...we should definitely be envious of the condo cavern that Miami has become....I was there for a conference last month and downtown Miami still feels like a ghost town at night...kind of like NYC in "I am Legend".
hmmm all those new condos who's buying them, whens the last time Miami put up a significant office tower?
Miami's Espirito Santo Plaza is one of my favorite recently constructed office towers in the South.
(http://www.condhotel.com/images/Conrad-Hilton-Condo-Hotel-Miami-Brickell.jpg)
At 487' tall, its the 28th tallest building in Downtown Miami. If it were in Jacksonville, it would be the third tallest behind BOA and MODIS.
Office towers currently under construction in Downtown Miami include Met 2 (647'), 1450 Brickell (540') and Brickel Financial Center (517').
Met 2
(http://www.loopconsulting.com/projects/mdda/images/met2high.jpg)
1450 Brickell
(http://www.resionline.com/megatemplate/uploads/preconstruction/92820051126027008.jpg)
Brickell Financial Center
(http://www.thespinnakergroupinc.com/1450_smll.jpg)
There is a ton of construction happening in that city. A lot of it just gets overlooked by the sharp rise in condo towers as neighbors.
I predict that within the coming months we will start making a comeback on the construction boom. Keep the Faith! 8)
Thanks for the info Lake, but I thought alot of those towers are mixed use and not just for office space.
Also along with one miami, bank of america, espirito is also a favorite. It seems much taller than that when your down there looking at it. I also hope some of our dead projects get new life if and when the economy starts improving. So many people losing their jobs. :(
Espirito Santo Plaza has a Conrad Hilton hotel in it. However, the three mentioned under construction are all 100% Class A office towers. Met 2 will be connected to a 42 story JW Marriott, which is also under construction.
I have been following the Met project, it's stated to be the tallest in the south outside of New York (along with a grocery store). I believe Shack has some part in the Met project. Miami's skyline nice to look at, but some many down there hate it and are trying to get out. If the St. John, Shipyards, San Marco project had gotten built I promise I would not complain about anything for atleast two yrs lol,,anyway I hope the Brooklyn project breaks ground soon.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 13, 2008, 12:21:38 AM
I have been following the Met project, it's stated to be the tallest in the south outside of New York
Is New York part of the south?
The strength of Jacksonville is it's slower pace. Comparing/racing is kinda pointless. Jax's inherent humility is it's strength. People are friendlier, more open, cooperative here. Cutthroat, fast-paced business first is not the norm here, which is why I suspect projects take longer. In many ways, there's nothing wrong with a more human pace to life, and that in itself is an advantage over go go go 24-7 South Florida.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 13, 2008, 12:43:33 AM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 13, 2008, 12:21:38 AM
I have been following the Met project, it's stated to be the tallest in the south outside of New York
Is New York part of the south?
I was only stating what I read in the Miami Hearld, uh so I guess you can ask them that. ::)
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 13, 2008, 11:02:07 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 13, 2008, 12:43:33 AM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 13, 2008, 12:21:38 AM
I have been following the Met project, it's stated to be the tallest in the south outside of New York
Is New York part of the south?
I was only stating what I read in the Miami Hearld, uh so I guess you can ask them that. ::)
Lol, sorry man. Nothing personal, I just chuckled when I read that sentence and had to point it out.
Is an almost empty residential skyline a good thing?
Quote from: urbanjvl on November 14, 2008, 01:50:10 AM
Is an almost empty residential skyline a good thing?
No it is not; but when the opportunity affords or presents itself, and we know if we build it there is a good chance they will come, then build it! Jax has floundered or passed up numerous opportunitites in this area and it needs to stop; now considering South Florida, it is no way you can tell me that out of all the building construction they are now doing, that most or all of those residential spaces will be full in the short term future, or even immediately. I see a lot of empty towers for the next 30 years or so, in fact, most of us in this forum will probably be "pushing up daisies" before all of those towers are filled...(and they just keep building, and building, and building.......).
Heights Unknown
I'm sure most would take empty condo towers over empty overgrown parking lots. At some point, those empty condos should drop down in price as owners/banks attempt to generate some sort of revenue with these properties.
Heights, I think what you will see in Miami is that a lot of these condo towers will be converted into other uses (apartments, offices, hotels, etc.). If the market is there, this is better than staying empty for a number of years waiting for the condo market to return.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 14, 2008, 06:36:37 AM
Heights, I think what you will see in Miami is that a lot of these condo towers will be converted into other uses (apartments, offices, hotels, etc.). If the market is there, this is better than staying empty for a number of years waiting for the condo market to return.
Lake said: I'm sure most would take empty condo towers over empty overgrown parking lots. At some point, those empty condos should drop down in price as owners/banks attempt to generate some sort of revenue with these properties.
Good points Lake and I do agree; but again, nothing is set in stone these days and old rules just don't apply; money, finances and economy (mood, prosperity, etc.) dictates and sets the tone for the entire market; so success in Miami will depend on an economic rebound and upswing. If this doesn't happen fully, you will see empty condos with no conversions or turning over into anything else...as you said, "if the market is there;" but nowadays it seems to all hinge and depend on the economy and not just the market.
As for Jacksonville, I would rather see something in those empty parking lots but I am not sure I would want empty condos or even half empty office buildings sitting there (as did happen in the 70's and 80's); those empty condos and/or office towers would also be a sign of failure and misjudgment on someone's part. I feel that Jax had the chance, numerous times, to capitalize on "infilling" our downtown with not only office towers, but residential towers along with their adjoining complexes and developments, and other types of developments.
Heights Unknown
We are the tortoise for some weird reason. We may always find ourselves in this position. I do believe this city will prevail and rebound. We'll get there just at a significantly different pace.
Our downtown development started a little later than the other cities in Florida. Cities like Miami have lots of snowbirds and draw heavily from South American countries. South Florida also has five times the population we do. If we would have started our development six months earlier we might have the St. Johns and a tower or two at The Shipyards under construction right now. We need to focus on getting people downtown, transit and getting city leadership that is fully dedicated to the downtown area. This will ensure that when we get out of the real estate mess we will have a healthy downtown that is ready for more development.
Good point Alta and I agree; but remember we were once the tourism capitol until South Florida was discovered...and of course this was way back when, and people back then weren't as "money minded" as they are now. However, when things started to go down the tube in the 60's is when our City Leaders should have went in to emergency mode and started planning and devising a way for our downtown, and the City as a whole to regain a foothold on prosperity and success, and to "keep up with the Joneses" so to speak; it's odd because Jax used to be "Mr. and Mrs. Jones" with other Florida Cities emulating us.
The mid to late 70's, in my opinion, would have been the perfect time for our Leaders to step forward and come up with a great plan for the city and it's downtown; but we can't dwell on what could have been...now we must move forward with a great plan and expound on what we already have (which isn't much).
I agree with you regarding getting people downtown, this is a good start; but we'd better have something for them to come downtown for...and of course good solid urban transit in various means and modes must be in place before those people start coming. It seems that Jax is always on the "tail end" of everything. I disagree though with our downtown development starting a little later than the other cities; Jax was the first city in Florida to have a vibrant, well developed downtown as iterated in some of the photos that have been posted in various threads of this forum. Somehow, and for whatever reason(s) our city leaders lost sight, dropped the ball, and just gave up once everything started to deteriorate in the 50's and 60's.
You must always keep what you have and Jax didn't; we destroyed most of the jewels and great things that were already in place. However, now we must depend on city leaders to have a great plan and vision, along with forums like this one to ensure that our City possibly gets the very best relative to good solid planning and foresight for downtown and city wide development.
Heights Unknown
My point about downtown development was during the real estate boom of the last several years. I remember going to Miami during Ultra Music Festival in 2004. They had at least 5-10 towers in the early construction stages then. We didn't get momentum until 2005 with the Peninsula, The Strand and San Marco Place. Jacksonville was the mecca of the movie industry during the 20's. We have a glorious past. We still have a lot of great historical buildings even though quite a few have been torn down to make room for buildings like the old library. I'm not making the argument that we can't have a vibrant downtown. Quite the contrary.
Understood Alta, acknowledged and noted. You are right on mark my friend.
Heights Unknown
I visited downtown West Palm Beach, Worth Avenue and Downtown Fort Lauderdale today. There's not as much construction taking place in these cities as there was a few years back. In fact, there's very little. However, a lot of the proposals announced in these cities were completed. Skyline wise, Jax still dominates but they are all more vibrant at street level. I'll hit Downtown Miami and Boca Raton tomorrow before heading back to Jax.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 15, 2008, 09:18:29 PM
I visited downtown West Palm Beach, Worth Avenue and Downtown Fort Lauderdale today. There's not as much construction taking place in these cities as there was a few years back. In fact, there's very little. However, a lot of the proposals announced in these cities were completed. Skyline wise, Jax still dominates but they are all more vibrant at street level. I'll hit Downtown Miami and Boca Raton tomorrow before heading back to Jax.
Is there a forum where we can lobby for the new "learning from" or "city comparison" articles we most want to see? Basically, would you put up a vote for "Lake's next vacation destination?" I've already got a few places in mind. ;D
I'm skiing next March in Utah. I'm going to take at least a half day to get some good pictures of the Trax (light rail), TOD, Intermodal Hub and commuter rail in Salt Lake City.
Quote from: alta on November 15, 2008, 11:20:24 PM
I'm skiing next March in Utah. I'm going to take at least a half day to get some good pictures of the Trax (light rail), TOD, Intermodal Hub and commuter rail in Salt Lake City.
sounds fun!
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 15, 2008, 09:30:29 PM
Is there a forum where we can lobby for the new "learning from" or "city comparison" articles we most want to see? Basically, would you put up a vote for "Lake's next vacation destination?" I've already got a few places in mind. ;D
Lol. I've actually cut back on my trips this year. However, when I travel for family reasons, I normally visit the downtowns of major cities I past through. I'll be visiting my parents for Thanksgiving, so most likely I'll stop in Orlando, Tampa and St. Petersburg while I'm down there. I'm overdue for a couple of trips out West. Its also time for me to make return trips back to DC, New Orleans and Chicago. Plus, St. Louis and Baltimore are two cities I've been trying to pencil in for a while. Anyway, let me know what cities you're interested in. Who knows, it may be on my hit list for 2009.
Btw, I spent some time down in Miami today. Miami is no Chicago, but its no Jax either. Although there is not much condo construction going on, there are a couple of office and hotel tower projects. There are a lot of half empty condo buildings and its evident with the empty new retail spaces that are in everyone of them at street level. Another thing that hurts downtown walkability down there is that most of the new development is linear. You'll see something nice and urban on one block, while the next block may be surface parking or vacant lots. There's not much in nightlife, outside of a new outdoor mall/town center in the Brickell District, but the Flagler Street retail district pulls in a decent crowd even on Sundays. The downtown core will become a true vibrant center when it fills in horizontally. However, I'm impressed with the strip of development that stretches a few miles north of downtown along Biscayne Blvd. Its a great example of a highway with 70s/80s sprawl development and fast food restaurants giving way to new development that lines the street.
As for Fort Lauderdale, imo that downtown does not have much character or life outside of the Las Olas strip and riverwalk. The large surface parking lots in the heart of it really hamper the desire to park the car and get out and walk. The skyline is nice, but I'm more impressed with Downtown Coral Gables. However, Fort Lauderdale Beach is pretty nice and lively.
Overall, compared to South Florida's major cities skyline wise (as far as downtowns go), Jax only takes a back seat to Miami.
I think I remember reading about an urban Target in DT miami. The issues of defining the population segment that they would target (no pun intended) and how the design could work in an urban environment. Might have been on this site, not sure.
Have you considered stopping by St augustine, daytona, west palm beach and all the little areas down there? Or if you're out in St Pete, maybe going further down to sarasota?
Anyway, as far as the cities that were on my mind (im pretty sure you havent done these ones yet but if im wrong forgive me)
Des Moines - very interesting business growth, imo.
Twin Cities - Minneapolis and St Paul both appear to be terrific centers of arts and culture.
Omaha
Kansas City
clearly, the midwest intrigues me, and these are all cities I've never been to since I was old enough to remember.
Ann Arbor - Detroit is struggling, but is that to AA's benefit or detriment? I spent just a couple days here last year, and most of it on UM's campus, so I'd like to learn more about the strengths of this college town.
Milwaukee - I was also only here for a day about three months ago, and I thought there was a lot to explore that I just didn't have time for. And Milwaukee seems comparable to Jax in a few ways.
Denver/Boulder - I was here for two days a couple years back and did not get below the surface. Nice vibe at both locales, though.
Colorado Springs - I don't know much about this place, never been here either. But I'm curious so I threw it in along with the other CO cities.
I'd also like to learn about Salt Lake, as alta mentioned.
There's your assignment, Lake...you've got your work cut out for you. I give you 6 months. :P
BTW, if you're coming to Chicago before next august, lemme know and maybe I can tag along. ;D After August '09 and I won't know where I'll be yet.
Already covered:
St. Augustine
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/637/118/
Sarasota
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/81/118/
In the pipeline:
West Palm Beach-Downtown, Worth Avenue
Boca Raton
Miami-Downtown, Biscayne Blvd, Brickell, Little Havana
Fort Lauderdale-Downtown, Beach
White Plains, NY
Stamford, CT
Bridgeport, CT
Syracuse, NY
Newark, NJ
Trips scheduled:
Orlando
Tampa
St. Petersburg
Salt Lake City (Alta)
Chicago (Steve)
As for the others, the last time I was in Ann Arbor was around 2004. I won't share those images since they are out of date. I planned to visit Milwaukee last year but ended up spending that time in Toronto when the pricing came out to be the same. Whenever I get back to Chicago, I'll probably attempt to spend a day there. I'm interested in all of the others, but if I head out west, it will be either Denver or one of the cities along the Pacific coast. I've been thinking about possibly moving to Dallas for two years or so (strong architecture market + cheap cost of living + rail already in place). If that happens, I'll be in good position to cover all of the Midwestern cities during that time period.
Oh no! How can we be sure that you'll come back?!
I'm also considering New Orleans, DC and Dubia in addition to Dallas. If I end up leaving, it will be because its the best financial decision for me to make at this point in my life. I have kids now, so its not just me I have to look out for. However, I do own real estate here and I love the passion of the urban community. This place can be an economic urban powerhouse if it ever finds a way to put all the chips together. If I end up leaving, I'll probably be back once the economic conditions improve.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 20, 2008, 11:26:14 AM
I'm also considering New Orleans, DC and Dubia in addition to Dallas. If I end up leaving, it will be because its the best financial decision for me to make at this point in my life. I have kids now, so its not just me I have to look out for. However, I do own real estate here and I love the passion of the urban community. This place can be an economic urban powerhouse if it ever finds a way to put all the chips together. If I end up leaving, I'll probably be back once the economic conditions improve.
You have to do what you have to do this is certainly understandable, but oh man, would you be missed. One of the greatest compliments I've ever been given was to be called mature. You add so much to this forum, maturity, knowledge, leadership and the ability to bring people together collectively. I was kind of hoping we could talk you into running for mayor of Jax.
When you finally return from any of those places, remember to bring the street cars, heavy rail, or light rail back with you, whatever the case may be! (Dubai's light rail will be complete next year, i believe)
If you move to Dubai send me your address. I want to come visit. If you stay we will all support your run for mayor.
Bring some scrapers back from Dubai also, and if you see an aquarium and marine museum along the way, bring those back also. Yours truly Keith. :)
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 21, 2008, 02:09:46 AM
Bring some scrapers back from Dubai also, and if you see an aquarium and marine museum along the way, bring those back also. Yours truly Keith. :)
naw, any scrapers he brings back from dubai would tower over everything we have. It wouldn't be pretty at all...
i could go for that indoor ski mountain they built...so absurd that i like it. :P
apparently a lot of the skyscrapers can be had on the cheap now.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6945283.ece
Quote from: thelakelander on November 20, 2008, 11:26:14 AM
I'm also considering New Orleans, DC and Dubia in addition to Dallas. If I end up leaving, it will be because its the best financial decision for me to make at this point in my life. I have kids now, so its not just me I have to look out for. However, I do own real estate here and I love the passion of the urban community. This place can be an economic urban powerhouse if it ever finds a way to put all the chips together. If I end up leaving, I'll probably be back once the economic conditions improve.
Wow, will hate to see you go Lake, but thanks to technology you can still comment and put your $1.00 in the forum. I've been to Dubai when I was in the Navy, and it was a sleepy city back then with not too many skyscrapers (we're talking 1992); now it's an economic and financial powerhouse; experiencing some hiccups of late, but read that it has been infused with a few billion to prop it up.
If you move to Dubai, make sure you get some super duper tall shots of "Burj Dubai!"
"HU"