The moment we've(or at least me) all been waiting for! They did the rendering for riverfront plaza!
Initial thoughts, not flashy glass, but it seems more sophisticated high end. Wish there was a rooftop, seeing that it's right on the river.
(https://pasteimg.com/images/2026/09/03/IMG_1678.jpg)
Gateway Jax seeks first-round design approval for Riverfront Plaza tower (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/sep/03/gateway-jax-seeks-first-round-design-approval-for-riverfront-plaza-tower/)
QuoteMore than eight months after acquiring a development pad in Riverfront Plaza through a land swap with the city of Jacksonville, Gateway Jax is seeking conceptual design approval for its proposed hotel and residential tower on the site.
The Downtown Development Review Board is scheduled to consider the project, identified in board documents as the Riverfront Plaza Hotel & Residences, during its Sept. 10 meeting.
Gateway Jax's plans for the pad came to light in early 2025 after the city proposed an exchange of the property, which was then city owned, for the former Interline Brands building at 801 W. Bay St., which Gateway Jax bought in October 2024 for $4 million from HD Supply Facilities Maintenance Ltd. of Atlanta.
The city sought the Interline Brands building to provide it to the University of Florida for its graduate campus in LaVilla.
In December 2025, the city and Gateway Jax closed on the land swap. The city then transferred the Interline Brands building to UF, where the university is now holding the first classes in the graduate campus. A ribbon-cutting is set for Sept. 9.
The 1.26-acre development pad is at the northeast corner of Riverfront Plaza, the site of the demolished Jacksonville Landing.
The main entrance to the Riverfront Plaza Hotel & Residences, shown here, would be off Independent Drive.
The main entrance to the Riverfront Plaza Hotel & Residences, shown here, would be off Independent Drive.
Downtown Development Review Board
Renderings in the DDRB request show a 20-floor tower, with the top floor for mechanical equipment. Residential units would go up to the ninth floor and hotel units to the 19th. A mezzanine, second-floor parking, food and beverage spaces and a third-floor sky terrace also are depicted.
Renderings in the DDRB request show a 20-floor tower, with the top floor for mechanical equipment. Residential units would go up to the ninth floor and hotel units to the 19th. A mezzanine, second-floor parking, food and beverage spaces and a third-floor sky terrace also are depicted.
The main entrance would be off Independent Drive, and the property would be connected to the Riverfront Plaza park. The $38 million first phase of the park was completed in late 2025 and construction of the $46 million second phase is underway.
New York-based Cookfox Architects and the Canada-based Stantec engineering, architecture and environmental consulting company are shown on plans.
DDRB staff recommended approval of the conceptual design on condition that Gateway Jax make revisions before seeking final design approval. Among those changes, staff requested the developers address "extended blank wall conditions" on the east and west podium areas and meet Downtown design standards that "provide a pleasant, rich, and diverse experience for pedestrians by visually connecting activities occurring within a structure to the adjacent Sidewalk."
Another condition is for Gateway Jax to provide detailed plans for landscaping, the rooftop and any amenities planned for it as well as loading, trash and service areas.
The DDRB meeting is scheduled for 2 p.m. in the main Jacksonville Public Library at 303 N. Laura St.
Would love to see this go forward. It adds much needed vibrancy to Riverfront Plaza. Plus, it adds around $700,000 a year into a dedicated fund for programming and upkeep of Riverfront Plaza. Best of all, despite elements of City Council inevitably complaining about the $20 million completion grant attached to the project, it is my understanding that the $20 million will be funded from the DIA's northbank TIF, versus the general fund. Feels like it pays for itself, while giving a private entity incentive to invest in and keep Riverfront Plaza active and safe.
Gotta say though, first glance, I don't love the way it integrates with the park. Feels less like the amenity-rich ground-floor extension of the park with residential/hotel above it that I was hoping for, and more like a hotel & residential building that happens to have park access, if that makes sense. Also agree that a rooftop restaurant feels like a must-have.
I think a lot of the public/private disconnect comes down to significant changes made to the design of Phase 2 of Riverfront Plaza. I've mentioned it before, but I absolutely loved the Civic Stairs with public art that were part of the winning submission. They reminded me a lot of the Chicago Riverwalk (first image), and created this awesome, iconic, sweeping promenade fronting the private development (original Riverfront Plaza drawings below).
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/42/84/98/428498a60006719f3b4b0b19a69262ba.jpg)
(https://www.jacksonville.com/gcdn/authoring/authoring-images/2025/05/30/NFTU/83946751007-gateway-plaza-rendering-riverfront-plaza.jpg?crop=938,527,x0,y17&width=660&height=371&format=pjpg&auto=webp)
(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2025/12/22/Gateway_Jax_Riverfront_Plaza_Rendering_t1100_t1100.jpg?31a214c4405663fd4bc7e33e8c8cedcc07d61559)
The new design, which I honestly don't know what we were thinking with, turns the eastern half of the park from an iconic promenade with wide river access and sweeping river views, into a random winding passthrough, bottlenecked at both the river and the stairs. The private development now seems like something you accidentally stumble onto from the side, versus a key anchor more deeply integrated into the park.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Riverside-Plaza-Phase-2/i-76krd5V/0/MhZxStsWxwVJkGVmCVPMHP9FGc7CxLKZF98G8xWhH/XL/20260514%20DDRB%20REGULAR%20MEETING%20AGENDA%20PACKET_Page_51-XL.jpg)
(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2026/09/03/20260903_Gateway_Jax_Riverfront_Plaza_aerial_t1100.png?31a214c4405663fd4bc7e33e8c8cedcc07d61559)
It's obviously just the first round, but I think we can do a much better job connecting the public park with the private development, given the importance of the space and the public dollars involved.
Let's get that downtown population over 10,000
^ Ken, I agree, the development looks less integrated with the park, essentially walled off, not "feathered" in at the edges. The concept below looks far better in that regard. I wonder why Gateway wouldn't push for this as it would increase the profile and interest in the restaurant(s) and provide hotel guests and residents a smoother and more inviting transition to the amenities of the park. If they have a concern about security at certain times, they could always gate off the top of the stairs and/or have security personnel keep an eye on that entry.
I don't know how the owner of the Wells Fargo building will feel about the obstruction of their river views but it seems a bit less intrusive and "competitive" for attention than the tower proposed a few years ago.
(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2025/12/22/Gateway_Jax_Riverfront_Plaza_Rendering_t1100_t1100.jpg?31a214c4405663fd4bc7e33e8c8cedcc07d61559)
This is another view of the current rendering showing better how "cut off" the development is from the park:
(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2026/09/03/20260903_Gateway_Jax_Riverfront_Plaza_pedestrian_link_t850.png?94beabde1e982a4eee8f83697e93b1d92468de7c)
QuoteRenderings: Riverfront Plaza Hotel & Residences
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Riverfront-Plaza-Hotel/i-CvHvsS5/0/Lqn9FMMMhx4hcQXSWtxKzdZMcsgtrcjPt8DT5Qk25/XL/20260910%20DDRB%20REGULAR%20MEETING%20AGENDA%20PACKET_Page_070-XL.jpg)
Gateway Jax seeks DDRB conceptual approval for its Riverfront Plaza Hotel & Residences project at the former Jacksonville Landing site. Let us known what you think!
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/renderings-riverfront-plaza-hotel-residences/
Not to be a negative nancy, but it still needs to make financial sense.
There's a lot of stuff in Jax totally struggling right now. We need more (of):
- high paying jobs (A LOT more), for any project with high-end rents and/or luxury condos
- tourism (A LOT more), for a project like this with a high-end hotel component
- lower interest rates, which don't seem to be in sight at the moment
There's a lot of people really trying to do things in Jax, but at the end of the day it all boils down to our economic engine, which is more than a bit sluggish in my opinion, and macro force, which are relentlessly negative right now.
Quote from: simms3 on September 09, 2026, 12:16:29 PMNot to be a negative nancy, but it still needs to make financial sense.
There's a lot of stuff in Jax totally struggling right now. We need more (of):
- high paying jobs (A LOT more), for any project with high-end rents and/or luxury condos
- tourism (A LOT more), for a project like this with a high-end hotel component
- lower interest rates, which don't seem to be in sight at the moment
There's a lot of people really trying to do things in Jax, but at the end of the day it all boils down to our economic engine, which is more than a bit sluggish in my opinion, and macro force, which are relentlessly negative right now.
When trying to determine if what's proposed is economically feasible and a true go, look at who's underwriting it financially. Private lenders aren't going to throw large amounts of money at loser projects in bad markets. Moll's getting the money, which indicates Jax is a good investment. There is a good economy here, with a lot of financial and advanced manufacturing professionals. I think these sectors are just going to keep growing too. Given all this I believe there's a demand for what Gateway wants to build at Riverfront Plaza.
They have some really good series if you ever get the chance to listen besides the following, but what a find! Must listen
Below is a podcast hosted by TJ and Daniel Davis from the Chambers featuring guest Bryan Moll.
The full library can be found below.
JACKSONVILLE SPEAK EASY EPISODES (https://www.speakeasyjax.com/episodelibrary)
Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on September 11, 2026, 09:16:01 AMThey have some really good series if you ever get the chance to listen besides the following, but what a find! Must listen
Below is a podcast hosted by TJ and Daniel Davis from the Chambers featuring guest Bryan Moll.
The full library can be found below.
JACKSONVILLE SPEAK EASY EPISODES (https://www.speakeasyjax.com/episodelibrary)
Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on September 11, 2026, 09:16:01 AMThey have some really good series if you ever get the chance to listen besides the following, but what a find! Must listen
Below is a podcast hosted by TJ and Daniel Davis from the Chambers featuring guest Bryan Moll.
The full library can be found below.
JACKSONVILLE SPEAK EASY EPISODES (https://www.speakeasyjax.com/episodelibrary)
Great share!
Really, really interesting listen.
Loved Bryan Moll describing going to tree farms in North Carolina and hand-selecting the oak trees that will be transported to Pearl Square for shade. Super excited to hear him discussing preliminary plans to bring an Armature Works to Phase 2, as well as confirm that a publicly-accessible rooftop bar IS part of the Riverfront Plaza plan.
If they have plans for a food hall, COJ should scrap the one they have planned for the Shipyards park.
Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on September 11, 2026, 09:16:01 AMThey have some really good series if you ever get the chance to listen besides the following, but what a find! Must listen
Below is a podcast hosted by TJ and Daniel Davis from the Chambers featuring guest Bryan Moll.
The full library can be found below.
JACKSONVILLE SPEAK EASY EPISODES (https://www.speakeasyjax.com/episodelibrary)
Just watched it. Moll's an excellent speaker! So articulate. Now I see how he can get the lenders behind him. The most important thing he said was "when you see buildings and development, there's data behind it. It has to be feasible based on the data." Also he said that, if it wasn't for his experience sizing up development potential, maybe he wouldn't have seen the opportunity in what looks like a down at the heels part of downtown. Given what I heard I'm really confident his development will be successful and transformative.
Quote from: Aristocles on September 11, 2026, 09:57:59 PMJust watched it. Moll's an excellent speaker! So articulate. Now I see how he can get the lenders behind him. The most important thing he said was "when you see buildings and development, there's data behind it. It has to be feasible based on the data." Also he said that, if it wasn't for his experience sizing up development potential, maybe he wouldn't have seen the opportunity in what looks like a down at the heels part of downtown. Given what I heard I'm really confident his development will be successful and transformative.
Nothing against Moll, his team or Gateway. I wish them the very best. So far, so good. But, it's not surprising developers are the ultimate optimists and great at selling that optimism to others. They have to be as they are natural risk takers and need to bring along lenders, outside investors, etc. that are more cautious. Only the passage of time will tell if the optimism is warranted.
Many major developments in NE Florida have failed before finding success: Queens Harbor, Sawgrass, Julington Creek, Amelia Island Plantation, Adams Mark (now Hyatt), Berkman, etc. Add any number of shopping centers, office buildings, apartments, condos, etc. All of them had financing or investors convinced by the "data" that big successes were just around the corner. Nocatee stands out for not failing but the Davis's deep pockets likely floated it through slow times.
^On the other hand, if everyone was a pessimist and was too conservative to invest in anything worthwhile, we'd have a pretty bad and archaic quality-of-life. So happy that we have a good balance. I love the start they are off too, especially since they have found a way to go vertical in an area of this city that was long abandoned by the majority.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 12, 2026, 09:19:48 PM^On the other hand, if everyone was a pessimist and was too conservative to invest in anything worthwhile, we'd have a pretty bad and archaic quality-of-life. So happy that we have a good balance. I love the start they are off too, especially since they have found a way to go vertical in an area of this city that was long abandoned by the majority.
That's the definitions of "opportunity"! Seeing success where others don't and going for it.
Gateway is more transformative than anything over in the sports/entertainment district thus far.
Don't get me wrong, I am excited about some of those projects, but Gateway Jax will prove to be the spark that was necessary to get the beginning of true vibrance between the Riverwalk and Downtown
I want to know what's going on with block N8...
Just saw an article in the Daily Record that their incentive request for the Plaza tower will be in excess of $59 million. Recapture grant of $39.4 and Completion of $20 million
Quote from: edjax on September 14, 2026, 04:17:45 PMJust saw an article in the Daily Record that their incentive request for the Plaza tower will be in excess of $59 million. Recapture grant of $39.4 and Completion of $20 million
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/sep/14/gateway-jax-seeks-more-than-59-million-in-incentives-for-rivefront-plaza-high-rise/
All of these articles continue to frame the $20 million completion grant as coming from the general fund and as being potentially contentious with City Council. This simply isn't true. The land swap with Gateway Jax clearly stated that a completion grant would be capped at $20 million and would come from the DIA's Northbank TIF. This was all clearly laid out before the Council already when they approved the land swap 17-1. The time to complain about this specific grant would have been when the land swap was being litigated.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 11, 2026, 11:56:34 PMQuote from: Aristocles on September 11, 2026, 09:57:59 PMJust watched it. Moll's an excellent speaker! So articulate. Now I see how he can get the lenders behind him. The most important thing he said was "when you see buildings and development, there's data behind it. It has to be feasible based on the data." Also he said that, if it wasn't for his experience sizing up development potential, maybe he wouldn't have seen the opportunity in what looks like a down at the heels part of downtown. Given what I heard I'm really confident his development will be successful and transformative.
Nothing against Moll, his team or Gateway. I wish them the very best. So far, so good. But, it's not surprising developers are the ultimate optimists and great at selling that optimism to others. They have to be as they are natural risk takers and need to bring along lenders, outside investors, etc. that are more cautious. Only the passage of time will tell if the optimism is warranted.
Many major developments in NE Florida have failed before finding success: Queens Harbor, Sawgrass, Julington Creek, Amelia Island Plantation, Adams Mark (now Hyatt), Berkman, etc. Add any number of shopping centers, office buildings, apartments, condos, etc. All of them had financing or investors convinced by the "data" that big successes were just around the corner. Nocatee stands out for not failing but the Davis's deep pockets likely floated it through slow times.
I hear you and believe me, if you're a real estate developer you must be hearing the Wallflowers song Sixth Avenue Heartache where Jakob Dylan sings "I've got my fingers crossed/on a shooting star". If you aren't, then you're probably not cut out for that line of work. A tremendously risky job resting on lots of luck. But I think there's a difference between good developers who know how to do due diligence and figure out things as best they can, and ones who might still sound optimistic but don't know what they're doing all that well, do shoddy work, and get governments to bail them out. Nobody can predict the future and developments can fail for completely unforeseen reasons. I think because the location is so good that Gateway Jax is less likely to fail than many developments in locations further away from the center of the city. But more than any of that, I hear in Moll a guy who understands things in context and, because of that, knows extremely well what he's doing. That clearly puts him into the good category. He's one of the best-spoken developers I've ever heard and I've worked with developers for 30 years. If anyone can get this right, I'm convinced he can. But don't take my word for it - look at the track record. The DC area and downtown Tampa.
Did you see the condos start at $3.5 million, $1400 sq feet? Gateway has 21 months to start construction when they will have to have presold 50% of the units at these prices. Or, back to the drawing board, buy back the property and then what? If it goes forward, 2 years for construction, so 2030? The IRR is only 7% even with $20 million in cash and substantial tax breaks. The contribution to the park is only $30,000, pretty different than the $500k they said last year. The bed taxes will go into an economic development pot to be decided later date. The DIA asked a lot of good questions, but it was unanimous vote in the end..."we can't turn back now"?
Is the IRR 7% before the $59 million in incentives or after?
That's barely more than a 10 year bond yield, which is currently 4.95%. The average rate of return for the S&P500 is 11-12%. Typically with a speculative real estate project, you would expect something in the 15-20% range because investors are taking on risk. I've invested in a couple of real estate projects lately (one in Jax) and both are in the 15-20% IRR range. It's possible that Gateway and it's investors are viewing the IRR across the entire scope of their projects though, so they may only take a 7% return on this, knowing that it will increase the value of their other projects.
The bigger question though, is can the DT Jax market sell 51 condos priced $3.5 million or higher? Apparently Four Seasons has only sold 7 of 26 units with a starting point of $4.7 million. That's a more desirable project, and I believe at least 3 of the 7 units are penthouses bought by the Khan family.
I know that this will be a new to market concept and nicer than anything around (excluding Four Seasons), but there really is not a luxury condo market in the city (not counting the Beaches). There has only been one high rise condo unit sold for more than $2 million in Jax in the past 2 years and that was a 5,500 sf foot double unit at Villariva. That unit only sold for $696 per SF. There were about 10 other high rise condo sales that were all in the $400-$600 per SF.
For $3.2 million, there are currently two houses for sale (4k and 5k sf) on the river in Ortega with pools and docks. There's a house on River Road for $2.5 (that does need some work). There's a decent house on the river in Avondale for $2.8 million. I know some people will want to live downtown in a highly amenitized building, but the single family market in San Marco, Riverside/Avondale, and Ortega will likely also compete with this project.
The good news is that like with most big condo projects Gateway has to pre-sell 50% to even start construction. So they will at least be able to test the market before breaking ground. I'm skeptical, but hope to be proven wrong.
^Also, speaking of the Beaches. The Azure, Related Group's luxury condo in Jax Beach was finished in 2024. The top floor penthouses at Azure only sold for $1,230 and $1,130 per square foot. The lower floors ranged between $780 a square foot and $1,050 per square foot.
I think the Gateway team must be banking on the Tampa Edition project as their best comp. It's similarly built on top of a luxury hotel. This enables an overall higher dollar per square foot, because your lowest unit will still be well above street level, getting premium views and a higher sales point. Recent resales at the Tampa Edition are around $1,500 to $1700, but there are also only 38 units there, and it's a stronger market in a better location.
Will be interesting to see how presales go.
QuoteApparently Four Seasons has only sold 7 of 26 units with a starting point of $4.7 million.
At least 3 or 4 of those sales were to Shad Khan and his kids/family so not really the "market." I would guess the balance are to others personally associated with Khan, not "off the street."
I know some Azure buyers and the price per square foot at closing could change dramatically based on the customization and finishes they upgraded to. So the Azure closing prices per square foot may be higher than indicated for what the developer was originally selling at.
Bottom line: I would say there likely have been no credible sales at this level in Jax.
Quote from: CityLife on September 18, 2026, 10:17:46 AMFor $3.2 million, there are currently two houses for sale (4k and 5k sf) on the river in Ortega with pools and docks. There's a house on River Road for $2.5 (that does need some work). There's a decent house on the river in Avondale for $2.8 million. I know some people will want to live downtown in a highly amenitized building, but the single family market in San Marco, Riverside/Avondale, and Ortega will likely also compete with this project.
One challenge in Jacksonville is that branded residences are still a relatively new product type for many local buyers. It's common for someone to compare an 8,000 SF home to a 3,500 SF condo and focus primarily on the difference in size, without necessarily considering the services, amenities, management, and lifestyle components that are part of the valuation. As with most emerging product types, there is an education component as buyers become more familiar with how branded residences are positioned in other luxury markets.
As for Azure, I've heard from several people that the quality of construction did not fully meet their expectations given the price point. I've seen a few instances of owners selling shortly after delivery with limited appreciation, but I don't know the reason they sold.
Quote from: CityLife on September 18, 2026, 10:17:46 AMApparently Four Seasons has only sold 7 of 26 units with a starting point of $4.7 million. That's a more desirable project.
Respectfully disagree on this point.
If I had $5 million to drop on a condo - spoiler, I do not - I'd pick the Gateway project over the Four Seasons, ten times out of ten. As we're seeing with Rise Doro, there's just zero demand for living at the sports complex right now, nor is there any public evidence that the city will be adding the amenities in the foreseeable future necessary to make this an attractive 24/7 neighborhood. Throw in what is certain to be years of construction and noise disruption, I cannot imagine why anyone would choose to live at the Shipyards right now.
Even though the Four Seasons name is stronger, feels like Laura Street, right on the St. Johns River, looking down at Riverfront Plaza, with Friendship Fountain/the Southbank across the river and the broader Northbank riverwalk at your doorstep is about the most desirable real estate in downtown Jacksonville. Feels like a much easier sell to an empty nester, or a Northeastern transplant, or a business exec looking for a trophy than a Four Seasons surrounded by concrete parking lots.
For both buildings, it's kind of fascinating to me that the luxury housing is preceding the supporting development. You've gotta think that both the Four Seasons condos and the Riverfront Plaza residential is an easier sell at those price points if the amenities are already in place and successful.
Things I'm hearing in the comments -
Quote from: CityLife on September 18, 2026, 10:17:46 AMI know that this will be a new to market concept and nicer than anything around (excluding Four Seasons), but there really is not a luxury condo market in the city (not counting the Beaches). There has only been one high rise condo unit sold for more than $2 million in Jax in the past 2 years and that was a 5,500 sf foot double unit at Villariva. That unit only sold for $696 per SF. There were about 10 other high rise condo sales that were all in the $400-$600 per SF.
Quote from: CityLife on September 18, 2026, 10:17:46 AMThe bigger question though, is can the DT Jax market sell 51 condos priced $3.5 million or higher? Apparently Four Seasons has only sold 7 of 26 units with a starting point of $4.7 million.
Quote from: CityLife on September 18, 2026, 12:36:32 PMRecent resales at the Tampa Edition are around $1,500 to $1700, but there are also only 38 units there, and it's a stronger market in a better location.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 18, 2026, 02:17:58 PMBottom line: I would say there likely have been no credible sales at this level in Jax
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 18, 2026, 03:33:37 PMFor both buildings, it's kind of fascinating to me that the luxury housing is preceding the supporting development. You've gotta think that both the Four Seasons condos and the Riverfront Plaza residential is an easier sell at those price points if the amenities are already in place and successful.
I think we are starting to get somewhere! At some point the city, the DIA, civic leaders, etc etc are going to have to realize that it all boils down to jobs. Gotta get the economic engine going!
Most larger and similarly-sized cities experimented with a bit of blandness, too, in high-rise living before they moved up to luxury/branded towers. Our world is a bit backwards when apparently the only high rise you can do is Four Seasons quality, but it should not need to be so!
Gateway has not yet found financing for their other tower (block N4 I think?), that I am aware of. Riverfront is better real estate, but to everyone's point - doing the 5 star thing before you have really anything else to speak of to build upon does not make as much sense.
For the hotel component - when you get Merrydelle and Four Seasons open, what's to justify an EDITION or St. Regis on top of it? What's drawing those people downtown?
A downtown still needs to be a place of jobs and commerce. Can't neglect that part of it. In extremely limited and rare conditions can it just rely on luxury residents and tourism, but we are so far from that and I don't see that really happening "on its own" like it did in St. Petersburg.
I think the City really needs to have a come to Jesus and compare the level of incentives we levy at individual apartment buildings and unjustified 5-star resorts to what would be needed to lure corporations in targeted industries to Jacksonville, specifically downtown. We need 3 FIS's headquartered in a walkable cluster downtown to generate a powerhouse economic "force" that employs many thousands of highly paid young professionals. Lots of other things will fall into place from that.
Instead we have hollowed out office buildings and restaurants struggling to even just provide lunch. These same restaurants would need several large apartment buildings with all WFH residents around them to succeed without office - and we need to subsidize each and every apartment building. A more cost effective and "sound" way in my opinion would be to incentivize business to come [back] to Jax, fill those towers each with thousands of employees.
The Vandeveer should provide a glimpse at what the Northbank market can support for rentals. Studios and 1 beds starting at $3.15/sqft and 2 beds at $2.93/sqft. This is far above anything else on the market right now and this is still an "emerging" part of Downtown just a couple blocks removed from a homeless shelter. I wish them the best but it's definitely ambitious pricing. Owning all of the surrounding area and building your own ecosystem certainly helps them play the long game
https://www.vandeveerjax.com/floorplans (https://www.vandeveerjax.com/floorplans)
Quote from: Zac T on September 19, 2026, 12:51:49 PMThe Vandeveer should provide a glimpse at what the Northbank market can support for rentals. Studios and 1 beds starting at $3.15/sqft and 2 beds at $2.93/sqft. This is far above anything else on the market right now and this is still an "emerging" part of Downtown just a couple blocks removed from a homeless shelter. I wish them the best but it's definitely ambitious pricing. Owning all of the surrounding area and building your own ecosystem certainly helps them play the long game
https://www.vandeveerjax.com/floorplans
Looked at the link. I see at least two targets that may pay up.
1. Single or roommate sharing professionals that want a walkable environment in the urban core that picks up restaurants, some shopping and the cultural and entertainment venues. I have to say the renderings look sexy. If the reality approaches those pictures, it would appear to be extra attractive.
2. What I have also noted recently is that there are people living in Nassau, St. Johns and Jax Beaches communities that want an outpost in downtown Jacksonville for weekend, work or event jaunts. As traffic congestion and distances grow, this may become more common. Renting an apartment, especially the studios, that includes parking and walkability, even at these prices, is far cheaper than a hotel room and avoids packing for each trip or the hassle of arranging accommodations and parking every time. It's a bit of a reversal from when people lived in town and had a second place at the beach.
I don't know if they would agree to it, but maybe also some corporate apartments for companies hosting lots of visits to Jax. Again, at volume, maybe easier to manage than hotel rooms.
Quote from: CityLife on September 18, 2026, 10:17:46 AMI know that this will be a new to market concept and nicer than anything around (excluding Four Seasons), but there really is not a luxury condo market in the city (not counting the Beaches). There has only been one high rise condo unit sold for more than $2 million in Jax in the past 2 years and that was a 5,500 sf foot double unit at Villariva. That unit only sold for $696 per SF. There were about 10 other high rise condo sales that were all in the $400-$600 per SF.
Quote from: CityLife on September 18, 2026, 10:17:46 AMThe bigger question though, is can the DT Jax market sell 51 condos priced $3.5 million or higher? Apparently Four Seasons has only sold 7 of 26 units with a starting point of $4.7 million.
Quote from: CityLife on September 18, 2026, 12:36:32 PMRecent resales at the Tampa Edition are around $1,500 to $1700, but there are also only 38 units there, and it's a stronger market in a better location.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 18, 2026, 02:17:58 PMBottom line: I would say there likely have been no credible sales at this level in Jax
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 18, 2026, 03:33:37 PMFor both buildings, it's kind of fascinating to me that the luxury housing is preceding the supporting development. You've gotta think that both the Four Seasons condos and the Riverfront Plaza residential is an easier sell at those price points if the amenities are already in place and successful.
I think we are starting to get somewhere! At some point the city, the DIA, civic leaders, etc etc are going to have to realize that it all boils down to jobs. Gotta get the economic engine going!
Most larger and similarly-sized cities experimented with a bit of blandness, too, in high-rise living before they moved up to luxury/branded towers. Our world is a bit backwards when apparently the only high rise you can do is Four Seasons quality, but it should not need to be so!
Gateway has not yet found financing for their other tower (block N4 I think?), that I am aware of. Riverfront is better real estate, but to everyone's point - doing the 5 star thing before you have really anything else to speak of to build upon does not make as much sense.
For the hotel component - when you get Merrydelle and Four Seasons open, what's to justify an EDITION or St. Regis on top of it? What's drawing those people downtown?
A downtown still needs to be a place of jobs and commerce. Can't neglect that part of it. In extremely limited and rare conditions can it just rely on luxury residents and tourism, but we are so far from that and I don't see that really happening "on its own" like it did in St. Petersburg.
I think the City really needs to have a come to Jesus and compare the level of incentives we levy at individual apartment buildings and unjustified 5-star resorts to what would be needed to lure corporations in targeted industries to Jacksonville, specifically downtown. We need 3 FIS's headquartered in a walkable cluster downtown to generate a powerhouse economic "force" that employs many thousands of highly paid young professionals. Lots of other things will fall into place from that.
Instead we have hollowed out office buildings and restaurants struggling to even just provide lunch. These same restaurants would need several large apartment buildings with all WFH residents around them to succeed without office - and we need to subsidize each and every apartment building. A more cost effective and "sound" way in my opinion would be to incentivize business to come [back] to Jax, fill those towers each with thousands of employees.
[/quote]
Fully agree with nearly every word here.
^ Definitely finding myself coming around to this thinking. The recent economic development focus from the City and Chamber has been on things like "the Small Business Capital of the Southeast" and attracting industrial jobs that are then located way out by Cecil or the airport or the seaports, not on new corporate headquarters.
Hopefully getting the UF campus open and growing is a chance to start thinking about what that kind of attraction needs to look like.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 19, 2026, 04:23:29 PM^ Definitely finding myself coming around to this thinking. The recent economic development focus from the City and Chamber has been on things like "the Small Business Capital of the Southeast" and attracting industrial jobs that are then located way out by Cecil or the airport or the seaports, not on new corporate headquarters.
Hopefully getting the UF campus open and growing is a chance to start thinking about what that kind of attraction needs to look like.
There is some chicken and the egg here.
It appears that one issue for employers locating downtown is the lack of poor mass transit connecting downtown internally and to surrounding urban, suburban and outlying areas. Many employees do not relish long driving times through congested roadways followed by the hassle and expense of paid parking garages.
Imagine being able to be productive on your laptop or tablet while riding reliable, long hour availability, frequent headway, secure and cost effective mass transit to your job downtown. We have nothing close to that today. Until we do, I don't see employers being able to attract the diverse workforce they need to have offices downtown. The recent decline of JTA is sure to further discourage employers desiring downtown offices.
The City needs to join with JTA to create a regional master plan for mass transit in NE Florida. Not holding out a lot of hope given the disjointed connection with JTA, its mismanagement, and the lack of a master plan for even downtown. "Master planning" and coordination seems to be foreign concept across this region.
Unlike the suburbs, businesses downtown need a continuous, reliable and robust infrastructure (security, streetscape maintenance, mass transit, public amenities, promotion, etc.) partnership with government to sustain a presence there and to justify the premium investment necessary. Jax hasn't demonstrated that, to date.
The 'we need jobs downtown first' argument has to compete with the reality that when there were thousands more jobs Downtown, these residential projects did not follow in a big way. And what residential there was was incentivized also.
Quote from: vicupstate on September 21, 2026, 09:51:38 AMThe 'we need jobs downtown first' argument has to compete with the reality that when there were thousands more jobs Downtown, these residential projects did not follow in a big way. And what residential there was was incentivized also.
It's almost like we need a unified, long-term master plan, beginning with the end in the mind, to guide downtown incentives and strategic focus, versus a patchwork of random TIF, incentive, and transportation documents stapled together.
Lo that would certainly have helped. Haphazard implementation rarely pans out. The sooner we can get a real community vision and plan together, the better. Otherwise, expect the same. Some positive steps forward, along with some easily avoidable steps backwards.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 21, 2026, 12:15:01 PMLo that would certainly have helped. Haphazard implementation rarely pans out. The sooner we can get a real community vision and plan together, the better. Otherwise, expect the same. Some positive steps forward, along with some easily avoidable steps backwards.
The DIA is supposed to embark on their 5 year update, which was done completely ad hoc last time. Does anyone think they will do a holistic approach with community visioning and input? Sadly, I do not seee that happening.
The DIA plan was a CRA plan. We haven't had a community oriented visioning process for downtown since the Delaney administration.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 25, 2026, 05:50:04 PMThe DIA plan was a CRA plan. We haven't had a community oriented visioning process for downtown since the Delaney administration.
Over the decades, I would add, I have never seen City officials take community input seriously for anything. It's mostly charette charades!
Quote from: acme54321 on September 14, 2026, 12:39:31 PMI want to know what's going on with block N8...
Nothing much still empty. whats it been five or six months since they got their construction permit wondering if they are having trouble with financing or waiting if publix will be approved and start construction since 22 story is their flagship building for pearl square and without publix it would be worthless to build 500 units of rental and that if they did do ground testing did they find something that may hinder building that tower. would plaza tower hinder negotiations for publix since its asking for incentives when city council was debating on approving publix.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 25, 2026, 06:55:47 PMQuote from: thelakelander on September 25, 2026, 05:50:04 PMThe DIA plan was a CRA plan. We haven't had a community oriented visioning process for downtown since the Delaney administration.
Over the decades, I would add, I have never seen City officials take community input seriously for anything. It's mostly charette charades!
Yes, and that's been a problem over the decades.
Quote from: vicupstate on September 21, 2026, 09:51:38 AMThe 'we need jobs downtown first' argument has to compete with the reality that when there were thousands more jobs Downtown, these residential projects did not follow in a big way. And what residential there was was incentivized also.
The last time we had "thousands more jobs downtown" was in the 90s/early 2000s. When Vestcor received incentives to revitalize the Carling and 11 East back in 2004, I would argue downtown was already in decline, but, you're right they still needed incentives.
I don't think it disproves the argument though. By the 90s other cities were focusing on their downtowns the way we are today and so got a huge head start when things were MUCH cheaper to build and jobs were still abundant in central cores. Jax was still demolishing Lavilla and expanding the Skyway to nowhere and local banking and insurance execs were selling out to other places/businesses en masse (and now none of those former execs who received huge payouts from selling are spending a dime to make our downtown nicer).
Now things are really expensive. If we want to even dream of having renters and owners of downtown apartments and condos, they need to be able to pay the freight. Interest rates are also skyrocketing right now, not helping.
So where are these people who can afford to pay $2,000 for a one bedroom going to come from and why would they want you spend that kind of money in a stuttering downtown, especially when they work off JTB and can live out at the beach for less?
I think it still boils down to jobs. High paying white collar office jobs downtown.
The number one problem with downtown revitalization is the lack of white collar jobs. It has to compete with corporate office centers located in the Southside and Baymeadows area. I used to work in the Baymeadows area for a tech company for a good number of years before moving to Lake Mary, Florida which is located north of Orlando for another tech company. Lake Mary also has a Class A office corridor along Lake Emma Road and Greenwood Blvd. Both areas are thriving with retail and dining clustered around it. Both Orlando and Jacksonville are experiencing the same problems with their downtowns.
I rented an apartment in Colonial Town Center in Lake Mary, one of the years (2017-2018) I worked as an in-house planning and PD&E consultant at FDOT District 5. I picked that spot specifically because there were a mix of uses (even manicured) that were easily accessible and commutes to DeLand and Orlando were manageable. It did grow old after a year (basically a worse version of Jax's Town Center area) and I eventually rented a more authentic spot in Downtown DeLand (Opera House Lofts) to finish out that contract.
My son went to college in Atlanta but decided to come back to Jax, after getting excited about Jax after going on a DT construction tour with me. He works for a corporate company near Town Center but is more interested in Vandeveer and Pearl Square than the stuff in the Southside. His interest is the same that I had when I moved here in 2003. There was nothing in Jax's burbs that didn't come a dime a dozen in cities across the state and country. However, there was appeal with the authenticity of the downtown core and we could afford it. In my case, I wanted a rowhouse (my preferred housing type, which just wasn't here) and downtown lacked the "outdoor living room" (vibrancy) that would make it make sense to me to pay more per square foot for less space. At a minimum, Pearl Square appears to be curated to create a critical mass of a walkable mix of uses that becomes that pedestrian scale "outdoor living room" that appeals to many young professionals.
I tell this story to suggest that downtown Jax needs more of everything from higher paying jobs, corporate relocations to more residential, hotel units, programming and unique destinations to visit. All of it needs to be done in a coordinated, compact fashion to stimulate synergy sooner rather than latter. This means also stopping the consistent self sabotage where we take away from the existing environment, instead of adding to it.
Common sense says there's more vibrancy now, if we would have kept places like Hooters, Fionn MaCools, etc. and adding things around them, forcing several businesses to close, losing hundreds of downtown jobs and free consistent programming and events in the process, to spend $100 million subsidizing a park, hotel and a hand full of replacement restaurants that will attract less people than the Landing did in 1990 or 2005. The public money invested in this one site to make it less of a destination, could have been sprinkled around to improving other areas of the Northbank or incentivizing new businesses and corporate relocations.
Common sense says if you honor and care about your history, you don't burn tons of money razing LaVilla in the 1990s, during the same period of time when its urban core peers across the country, like Tampa's Ybor City, San Diego's Gaslamp, Charleston and Savannah, etc. began to make their comebacks. Common sense says you figure out how to get that no-frills Skyway station open in Brooklyn to make an existing downtown transit circulator actually serve its purpose, then run the system into the ground for an autonomous pipe dream that doesn't have the capacity to move masses.
Our misses during the 2000s have been easily avoidable mistakes that if we would have had some structure and a committed plan, downtown would be twice as vibrant than it is today. We can't get back the past, but we can learn from it. Yes, we need jobs. Yet, we make this problem worse when we allow our own public entities (DCPS) to abandon it. Yes, we need more businesses, hotels, restaurants, etc. However, we make that problem worse when we kick out (Landing businesses) or can't support the businesses that are already here for lack of foot traffic.
People seek local authenticity, and we've torn down plenty, so we should be saving most of what we have left! Yet we allow outsiders like Captain Sandy Yawn to come and raze century old buildings because they made a personal investment that never made sense from day one.
More opportunities will come naturally because we have a good economy, climate and we're affordable. We just have to make sure to not trip over our own two feet!
I agree with your statement about creating an "outdoor living room" downtown. I sort of see it as a bedroom community for the working class that is a missing component that was lost decades ago. I did manage to see that when I was younger. A group of shotgun houses which I think was along Union Street after exiting I-95 if my memory serves me right.
I also think Gateway Jax is onto something with Pearl Square. The city just needs to work on complimenting that development to help that area grow and thrive. Same with the future UF campus. That area will begin to see more foot traffic. We will need to figure out how to close the walkability gap in between.
Quote from: simms3 on September 26, 2026, 08:18:19 AMQuote from: vicupstate on September 21, 2026, 09:51:38 AMThe 'we need jobs downtown first' argument has to compete with the reality that when there were thousands more jobs Downtown, these residential projects did not follow in a big way. And what residential there was was incentivized also.
So where are these people who can afford to pay $2,000 for a one bedroom going to come from and why would they want you spend that kind of money in a stuttering downtown, especially when they work off JTB and can live out at the beach for less?
This is the question that DT leaders and developers should keep in mind as Downtown grows. Outside of the surrounding urban core neighborhoods, the beaches is definitely the #1 competitor to Downtown for prospective residents. When I used to work in the Downtown residential sector, very rarely did we lose someone to the Town Center, SJC, or any other suburban counterpart. To Ennis' point, most people looking to live in an urban setting aren't interested in the suburbs. The beaches are the only other alternative in Duval County to generic suburbia with a good nightlife scene. It's not uncommon for people to do a few years at the beach and then move Downtown and vice versa.
With the recent growth Downtown and the persistent social media hype about Downtown's "resurgence" coupled with limited housing stock at the beach, we've seen more and more people choose Downtown over the beaches in recent years. Hopefully that's a trend that will continue and more jobs DT definitely won't hurt
I suspect there are a number of folks here who have positions and stature and could sway the Mayor and the DIA to creat a true community-driven properly managed planning process to take the place of the DIA past practices.
It is hard when the check the box community input process is embedded in the bureaucracy, but why not try to change it?