Metro Jacksonville

QuoteBy LARRY HANNAN, The Times-Union

A proposed commuter rail system in the Jacksonville area will cost $543 million to build and $40 million a year to run, and won't make money, according to a yet-to-be completed study by a Jacksonville Transportation Authority consultant.

It is not clear yet where, when or if the money will be found to build the system.

The JTA asked the consultant, Gannett Fleming Inc. of Pennsylvania a year ago to look into using the existing rail lines owned by CSX and Florida East Coast Railway to create a three-pronged commuter rail system that would help get cars off the road. It would be part of the transportation authority's long-range effort for commuter rail flow into the downtown area, where buses or the Skyway would take people to their final destination.

A northbound line on CSX tracks would go to Yulee; a southwest line on CSX tracks to Green Cove Springs; and a southeast line on Florida East Coast tracks to St. Augustine.

The construction cost does not include a new transportation center at the Prime Osborn Convention Center, the starting point for all three commuter rail lines.

full article: http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/110808/met_353501754.shtml

Although James gave a pretty good answer, I'm disappointed in this TU article.  I don't think I've ever read about a local road project (like SR 9B or JTB's widening) not being able to turn a profit, yet costing millions more per mile.  There was also no mention of the cost comparisons between this system and the proposed BRT estimates.

Furthermore, they have this thing stretching all the way to Yulee, Green Cove Springs and St. Augustine.  Once studies get further along, you'll see it begin to materialize into a shorter system with higher ridership numbers and cheaper costs.  Relaying the S-Line track is also a way for the system to make money for annual O&M operations and to take port truck traffic off the street.  Working with Amtrak is another way to properly phase a local system.  For example if Amtrak starts up a corridor service between Jax and Miami, running several trains per day between the cities, there's no reason to extend commuter rail to St. Augustine.  None of this is stuff is new.  We've been putting these things online and discussing them in public meetings for years now.  I'm disappointed that the reporter did not do his homework, thus creating a negative oriented article.  This type of reporting does not help the fight to turn public sentiment to more responsible growth.

I just noticed it, but they also show the image of a light rail train, while the topic is about commuter rail.  After all the reporting and studies, do they still not understand the difference?

The Article isn't bad it fails to mention as most articles do that roads are built at more of loss for the same public benefit. The title would not have been able to be used in even my junior high newspaper because it editorializes.

The title of the article is a big turnoff. I was very disappointed. After reding through the article, it didn't sound too bad, but a different title would have helped.

I don't think this is the first lousy article I've seen by Mr. Hannan.

This article is most likely a self-solicited hit job. The TU wouldn't have run this without JTA issuing a press release or asking for the story. It reads like it is taken from a release with a follow-up quote added.

JTA is thus putting the word out there that trains are expensive. . . without admitting that their BRT plan is more expensive both in terms of outlay and per-rider cost. Also, the apples to oranges comparison fails to note that the BRT plan doesn't go to where people live now-- let alone St. Augustine.

Time for a MetroJacksonville letter to the editor.

I agree, that it seems staged....I also agree that it's time to apply more pressure from the public, to 'find' that funding. We need light rail!

While were at it, why not toss some of these numbers at them?

http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/

Commuter Rail Will Cost Big Bucks + OCKLAWAHAS RANT

OCKLAWAHA

PUBLIC INVITATION:

TO:  LARRY HANNAN, The Times-Union

Larry, you have my number, if not check my Jacksonville Transit Blog. This is an invitation for you to spend a day on the rails (in a locomotive cab), under them, and all around them for a day. Hell, I'll even toss in Greyhound and JTA. You say when, and you and I will make it a fun filled day of learning from the old Brass Hat.  

OCKLAWAHA

The funding is there, if we really want it.  The first thing we have to do is freeze the spending of the BJP $100 million for rapid transit right-of-way, make a commitment to move forward with rail and complete an integrated mass transit master plan.  From that point:

Narrow the focus

QuoteA proposed commuter rail system in the Jacksonville area will cost $543 million to build and $40 million a year to run, and won't make money

When we hear about the Outer Beltway, they never talk about the total costs (Northern segment + Chaffee segment + Southern segment).  Instead all we know is the southern segment will cost at least $1.8 billion.  JTA's study is covering an insane 91 miles of track.  Metropolitan areas five times our size, such as Dallas (36 miles) and Miami (72 miles) don't have commuter rail systems that extensive.  As a long term plan, its great to stretch rail into Yulee, but to get something off the ground the focus needs to be narrowed to a short, yet effective and affordable starter line.  If this is done, that $100 million could be used to get the line up and running and pay for a few years of O&M costs.  As the system expands, then leverage the starter as the local investment needed to gain matching federal and state funds for additional expansion.


Don't forget about Amtrak

These guys are armed with $15 billion in cash and are begging to partner with the State for a corridor service.  Lets stop wasting time and team up with Amtrak and Florida's other communities to get additional trains running between Jax, New Orleans, Tampa, Orlando and Miami.  Increased Amtrak service could come with stops in Orange Park, Green Cove Springs and St. Augustine.  This could be used as a commuter service between our satellite communities while our local focus is on getting an affordable starter line up and running.  In the meantime, Amtrak's money would be used to to fund many of the same improvements needed for commuter rail.  This means, our overall local investment would drop over the long term.


Stop whining about the need for dedicated O&M costs

The S-Line should be viewed as a way to stimulate income.  Its not like the traditional answer of raising taxes but it has a lot of validity to it.  It provides a direct connection between FEC and Tallyrand.  This means we can shift more truck traffic to rail.  If its publicly owned, we may stimulate revenue by giving freight carriers the ability to use it.  Also, the S-Line could bring private sector rail dependent warehousing, manufacturing and logistics jobs back to blighted inner city industrial areas, increasing property values for the city.  Furthermore, back the rental car tax proposal South Florida has been pushing.  If passed, it would provide funds to all commuter rail systems in the State.  Combine money made by freight service on the S-Line with the farebox, rental car sales tax and perhaps wrap advertising and we may be able to have enough for annual O&M costs without raising local taxes.

Give the media the middle finger

At least until a starter is finalized.  For whatever reason, these guys don't get it and keeping things simple for them will totally eliminate negative article headlines such as this.  This is important because this is a city still wrapped around the automobile and sprawl with little to no vision.  Getting rail is already an uphill battle with the skyway debacle.  Bad press isn't going to help the situation.

Has anyone from from Metro Jacksonville been able to get an interview with the local media (print or tv) to present our side of the argument?  This seems to be a trend with the media.  Instead of any investigative journalism they just report talking points and press releases at face value. 

We've interviewed with the local media plenty of times over the last couple of years.  We even gave a presentation to the TU's editorial board.  The points we make today are the same ones we've been making when we started our push for rail.  Its frustrating to see that after all the interviews and meetings, there is still a lack of understanding.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 08, 2008, 11:07:38 PM
We've interviewed with the local media plenty of times over the last couple of years.  We even gave a presentation to the TU's editorial board.  The points we make today are the same ones we've been making when we started our push for rail.  Its frustrating to see that after all the interviews and meetings, there is still a lack of understanding.

It doesn't seem like a misunderstanding. The title is an opinion that predicts the future basic no nos in report the news journalism. They can do it if using a quote with quotations or noted paraphrase. Instead it was printed as a statement the TU's endorsement of fact. They know this isn't proper so it was done intentionally for effect.  Trying to be the cause of effect is another no no for reporting the news and smells of agenda. 

co-sign.....he is leaving so much info out of the article. :-\

That article was disappointing.  It does not present a positive view on rail and the arguments are not well thought out.  The title is an ignorant statement.  Is the subway system in NYC a money generator, I think not, yet it is one of the best systems in our country to move people around.  I sent the T-U author an E-Mail with my thoughts on his article, I reccomend you do do the same!

I don't think it came from JTA on orders, Frankly, Mr. Blaylock is more of a visionary then this. My feeling is the TU is playing the game of the little kid on the block - He's GOING to whack that wasp nest before he grows up. Sadly, this kid has a serious case of printmediaemia and may soon go the way of all Neanderthals. But sensational, knee jerk, reactionary journalism, is not a cure - just a symptom. I didn't buy the paper today.

If the Times-Union thinks they will convince us to surrender with an article - to invade us with print, to intimidate us with veiled monetary threats, it won't work. We will simply smile and say, "That's alright, we already have YOUR children..."  (anyone what to guess where the original of that quote came from - Yes TU you can play too).

OCKLAWAHA

Hm...
MetJax needs its own periodical for the computer illiterate. :p

Isn't the key question whether anyone would use the proposed system?  Its true that at the washington system looses money no one would argue whether its worthwhile, particularly at 5 in the afternoon.  I don't know if the NY system makes money or not, but again no one would argue about the value.  A jacksonville system hmmmmmmm not sure about that.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 08, 2008, 07:58:44 AM
Although James gave a pretty good answer, I'm disappointed in this TU article.  I don't think I've ever read about a local road project (like SR 9B or JTB's widening) not being able to turn a profit, yet costing millions more per mile.  There was also no mention of the cost comparisons between this system and the proposed BRT estimates.

Furthermore, they have this thing stretching all the way to Yulee, Green Cove Springs and St. Augustine.  Once studies get further along, you'll see it begin to materialize into a shorter system with higher ridership numbers and cheaper costs.  Relaying the S-Line track is also a way for the system to make money for annual O&M operations and to take port truck traffic off the street.  Working with Amtrak is another way to properly phase a local system.  For example if Amtrak starts up a corridor service between Jax and Miami, running several trains per day between the cities, there's no reason to extend commuter rail to St. Augustine.  None of this is stuff is new.  We've been putting these things online and discussing them in public meetings for years now.  I'm disappointed that the reporter did not do his homework, thus creating a negative oriented article.  This type of reporting does not help the fight to turn public sentiment to more responsible growth.

Lake...perhaps this article deserves a letter to the editor?

Civil, what systems are you talking about in DC and NYC?  Their subways or commuter rail lines?

tufsu1, its looking that way.

There was a much better article in last Wednesday's edition of the Financial News and Daily Record. I really dont think there is any colusion between JTA and the TU on this one.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=51170&text=commuter%20rail&type=thisexactphrase

Still an obnoxious title to the article though.  Mass transit never turns a profit, neither do roads.  Both are capital infrastructure improvements that give commuters options one way or the other, but unless there are tolls on the roads, how exactly do they turn a profit?

Has the TU ever run an article "Costly Outer Beltway Would Lose Money"?  Then you have to factor in all the infrastructure the city has to build to serve the new development such as road, sewer and power lines, traffic lights.  I wish we had city leadership that had vision of how great Jacksonville could be with a quality rail network (commuter or light rail) that would focus on infill development and encouraging quality developments like Jackson Square.  Getting people out of their car to use mass transit.  Even if you don't use mass transit the citizens of Jacksonville would benefit from people that normally would drive using a light rail or commuter network.  It's a win-win.  Of course I guess we will get the same quality transit oriented development and choice riders from JTA's BRT system.  LMAO   

I dont know why we're all getting so bent out of shape about this.  We all knew the Times Union was a crappy birdcage liner before this came out.

Bunch of hack jobs.

I wish I lived in a city with a REAL newspaper (or 2, or 3).

Can we get a double dose of VISION around here?

So the double dose of vision is coming from Detroit?  lmao.     

Quote from: DetroitInJAX on November 13, 2008, 11:41:01 PM
I dont know why we're all getting so bent out of shape about this.  We all knew the Times Union was a crappy birdcage liner before this came out.

Bunch of hack jobs.

I wish I lived in a city with a REAL newspaper (or 2, or 3).

Can we get a double dose of VISION around here?

Delta's ready if you are.   ;)

I think its interesting that no one here has commented on what it might do to the economy since a rail system could be potentially non-oil based, thus giving the Jacksonville economy a little more freedom from the price of oil which seems to be bobbing more than a nit-wit's skull at a debate.
No road makes money. The rail system may or may not be expected to pay for itself in part or in full....EVENTUALLY. If the rail system is going to pay for itself or even make a dent on the expense it needs to go where people want to go, or people need to want to go where it goes.

Welcome redpixie.  Rest assured, many on these boards have commented on rail's benefit to the economy.  Take a look through the Transportation section and you'll find gobs of info, articles, and discussions on all of the benefits of rail.

Welcome aboard Red!  In many various threads throughout this site you will find many passionate advocates for rail, light rail, and public transport.  Many of them are experts in the field.

Check out: http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/

For a nearly daily dose of rail in Jacksonville.  

OCKLAWAHA