Apparently FoxNews is just now realizing this:
KKK Won't Go Away. Florida high school â€" where more than half the students are black â€" keeping KKK founder's name
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,448684,00.html
QuoteFlorida high school named for a Confederate general who was also a leader of the Ku Klux Klan will be keeping its name â€" thanks to a vote of the county school board.
More than half the students at Nathan Bedford Forrest High School in Jacksonville, Fla., are black, and some members of the community object that they are forced to attend a school that was named in honor of a racist.
Nathan Bedford Forrest was a slave trader before the Civil War, a top-notch Confederate cavalry leader during the war, and the Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan in Tennessee when it was over, according to University of North Carolina-Greensboro emeritus professor Allen Trelease, a Civil War scholar.
Forrest High got its name in 1959, when the Daughters of the Confederacy, angry about the Supreme Court's 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision forcing school integration, pushed for the name.
All 2,300 of the school's students were white at the time. Now, 54 percent are black, and some feel it's time to change the school's name.
On Nov. 3, the Duval County School Board voted 5 to 2 against changing the name. The five members who voted to keep the name were white. The two who voted against it were the board's only black members.
Changing the school's name was brought before the board in 2006, and the board put off a vote for almost two years, said Brenda Priestly Jackson, who voted "no" with board chairwoman Brenda Burney.
Jackson said was surprised to find the issue on the Nov. 3 agenda.
"I was actually in shock when I read the item," she told FOXNews.com. "We had three hours of public comment, and I kid you not, you would have thought you'd gone back to some other place and time."
Jackson called the discussion "revisionist history," and said that Forrest had been known in history for two things: "massacre and the KKK."
Those in favor of keeping the name said Forrest's history was debatable and his involvement with the KKK was minimal.
It was unknown "who the real Forrest is," said board member Tommy Hazouri, who voted to keep the name, the Associated Press reported.
Forrest led the Klan from 1867 to 1869. Some historians think Forrest was one of the Klan's founders.
Confederates, Trelease said, "worshiped him as a hero."
In 1999 the school board voted to keep the school's name after its basketball coach said it was oppressive to the school's diverse students, the Florida Times Union reported.
One member of the community who was happy to see the board stick with Forrest was Billy Parker, the school's first principal.
"I am thrilled to death that the school board voted it down to leave it Nathan Bedford Forrest," said Parker, who served on the county school board for 20 years.
"The thing about it is, Forrest, at the time he was alive, slavery was the thing to do and he was involved in it at the very beginning," he said. "But when the war ended he was one of the strongest ones to do away with slavery, and they never mention that and the fact that he was a good man."
But Priestly says the community needs to revisit the issue. She said if more people had come to speak out, changing the name would have been a "no-brainer."
"I have had citizens in the city who are African-American and white in the city who are appalled at the vote," Johnson said.
"The sad irony for me was that here [we are] on the eve of one of the most pivotal elections in our country in which we had an African-American and a woman on different tickets… and we're sitting here for six hours talking about whether or not we would keep the name of the former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan on the school," Johnson said.
Just FoxNews trying to stir up racial issues (sad to say).
He was not convicted of the Fort Pillow Massacre, and his involvement with the KKK was seen by a congressional hearing to be nothing further than to try to disband them.
He lead many black confederate soldiers and even acknowledged them as amongst the best he ever lead.
The Fort Pillow Massacre is severely disputed. Soldiers on both sides say that a massacre happened, as well as others on both sides saying the the surrender signal was never given.
QuoteThis was disputed by Lt Daniel Van Horn of the 6th U. S. Heavy Artillery (Colored) who stated in his official report "There never was a surrender of the fort, both officers and men declaring they never would surrender or ask for quarter."
So he remains a man of mystery, no one knows the real Forrest.
I remember hearing the history of his name is questionable. Regardless, it doesn't paint Jacksonville in a good light.
But hey, at least we're not Baker county with klansman painted on a mural!
Forrest grad c/o 98 :-\....my take on it was they should have changed the name. Firestone High School was what the name change was to be.
I have the same opinion for Lee High School, JEB Stuart Middle, & Jeff Davis Middle, those D.O.C. had an agenda. An agenda for revenge. That is history that I never knew until reading this article. But whatever...maybe the black students should protest or enroll at Ed White High or Orange Park High.
*Eyes roll*
QuoteThe Fort Pillow Massacre is severely disputed. Soldiers on both sides say that a massacre happened, as well as others on both sides saying the the surrender signal was never given.
Quote
This was disputed by Lt Daniel Van Horn of the 6th U. S. Heavy Artillery (Colored) who stated in his official report "There never was a surrender of the fort, both officers and men declaring they never would surrender or ask for quarter."
So he remains a man of mystery, no one knows the real Forrest.
This is an era about CHANGE, Forrest was one of those very first men of the South to change his ways completely after the war. His address in Memphis to his "brothers and sister Americans" was made to an all black audience a group that would go on to be called the NAACP. Forrest was there for them at the very start saying lets bury the past and work toward unity - community etc...
Fort Pillow is well doccumented and historians on both sides seem to know what reall happened. First the terrain was horrid for a battle, with deep pits or natural trenches hiding enemys just 20 feet away. It was impossible for commanders on either side to control anything. The Confederates did offer a surrender to the trapped federals and we're met with a "GO TO HELL" message. Meanwhile a (never mentioned) federal Iron Clad gun ship pulled up near the river to take on the fleeing FEDERALS. Many drowned, as the gun boat opened up on the Confederates, the Confederates answered and drove it off. So even if the last federals would have surrendered, their Navy broke that trust by opening fire on a surrendered fort. Try that today with the war on terror - Surrender your fort and your terrorists, then watch what happens when other terrorists attack from the rear - SLAUGHTER.
Remember history is told by the victors.
BTW Mr. Parker, CHERYL and I both say HEY MAN! LOVE YOU! OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Coolyfett on November 07, 2008, 06:58:57 PM
Forrest grad c/o 98 :-\....my take on it was they should have changed the name. Firestone High School was what the name change was to be.
I have the same opinion for Lee High School, JEB Stuart Middle, & Jeff Davis Middle, those D.O.C. had an agenda. An agenda for revenge. That is history that I never knew until reading this article. But whatever...maybe the black students should protest or enroll at Ed White High or Orange Park High.
*Eyes roll*
Lee HS was named in the 1920s long before the civil rights era. There was no racist motivation there. There is also NO evidence that naming the high school for Forrest was based on resistance to Brown or racism. It just isnt supported by any documentary evidence. The reality is Jacksonville has been a Deep South city for many many years and as such has a long history of celebrating the Confederate heroes of our region. Nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 07, 2008, 08:34:15 PM
Remember history is told by the victors.
OCKLAWAHA
Deo Vindice!
When these mascots and football, and baseball teams (professional and college) change their freaking names/looks then we can talk about changing the names of schools. Native Americans have been spoofed (and continue to be) for ever. I am a little sick and tired of the double standard and whining. History is history, why should we forget our history? Why do we add additional names to freaking streets and roads???? Who freaking cares? This is an open school system go to a different school if you really can't stand the name!
I am a Forrest grad as well. When I was a student, the name change was talked about but most students were not bothered by it. One thing everybody agreed on was that the school was a dump and still is. How many straight "F" ratings has it gotten? Perhaps the folks who spent their time worrying about the name change should worry about the young minds being educated at the school.
Quote from: uptowngirl on November 11, 2008, 07:38:56 AM
When these mascots and football, and baseball teams (professional and college) change their freaking names/looks then we can talk about changing the names of schools. Native Americans have been spoofed (and continue to be) for ever. I am a little sick and tired of the double standard and whining. History is history, why should we forget our history? Why do we add additional names to freaking streets and roads???? Who freaking cares? This is an open school system go to a different school if you really can't stand the name!
Most Colleges changed their mascots due to the NCAA, save for FSU which had the blessings of the Florida Seminole Tribe. (who participate in making sure that Chief Osceola is in traditional garb)
Of course, the Oklahoma Sooners kept their name as well, when Sooners were scoping land out for claims when the Native Americans were removed. (look up sooner clause, but I digress)
High Schools on the other hand.....
I think we can hide behind history all we want. The fact is Forrest started the KKK and it stands for something bad. Regardless of what good Forrest has done, his name stands for something bad, locally and nationally and therefore we as a society should not celebrate what his name stands for by using it on an educational facility. Granted I know the community should focus on improving the "F" status of the school, but I think renaming and rebranding a school with those who who utilize the shool can give the current students a sense of ownership instead of being owned by the past.
The biggest reason if there were a name change, I think it would be justified is this.
QuoteForrest High got its name in 1959, when the Daughters of the Confederacy, angry about the Supreme Court's 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision forcing school integration, pushed for the name.
All 2,300 of the school's students were white at the time. Now, 54 percent are black, and some feel it's time to change the school's name.
QuoteMost Colleges changed their mascots due to the NCAA, save for FSU which had the blessings of the Florida Seminole Tribe. (who participate in making sure that Chief Osceola is in traditional garb)
Of course, the Oklahoma Sooners kept their name as well, when Sooners were scoping land out for claims when the Native Americans were removed. (look up sooner clause, but I digress
As a student at OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY, I must add that the Sooners were Illegal claim jumpers, yes the team is named for OUTLAWS. A "Sooner" was someone that got past the Federal Army line and into the land that would be opened with a land run.
The story goes that the US Cavalry came upon a cabin where they were already harvesting tomatos, the "Sooner" had an excuse.
"How long have you been here?" demanded the Calvary leader (the punishment was instant death).
"Oh Damn, this is the richest land in the world, we just planted these yesterday and look what has happened!" said the Sooner. (history is silent on the result).
So who were the Sooners?
CRIMINALS
every last one of them. With a death sentence over their heads!VIVA OSUO C K L A W A H A
Quote from: copperfiend on November 11, 2008, 11:59:03 AM
The biggest reason if there were a name change, I think it would be justified is this.
QuoteForrest High got its name in 1959, when the Daughters of the Confederacy, angry about the Supreme Court's 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision forcing school integration, pushed for the name.
All 2,300 of the school's students were white at the time. Now, 54 percent are black, and some feel it's time to change the school's name.
Ok so change it, but then they better go from an "F" to at least a "B" if the name is what is jacking them all up.....
I think we can hide behind history all we want. The fact is Forrest started the KKK and it stands for something bad. Regardless of what good Forrest has done, his name stands for something bad, locally and nationally and therefore we as a society should not celebrate what his name stands for by using it on an educational facility. Granted I know the community should focus on improving the "F" status of the school, but I think renaming and rebranding a school with those who who utilize the shool can give the current students a sense of ownership instead of being owned by the past.
TheProfessor, I agree. It's quite well known that Forrest was a founder and early leader of the Klan, and for a Jacksonville High School, regardless of its grade or its racial breakdown, to be named after him is a shame both locally, and as shown by FoxNews, nationally. And I agree with a previous poster that all of the Jacksonville public schools named after Confederates should be changed. Anyone with half a brain knows that the Civil War was fought over Slavery. You can argue all you want to that it was fought over States' rights, but the underlying issue of the war was slavery. And for a few Duval schools to be named after Confederates (i.e. people that fought for and supported slavery) is a slap in the face to African-Americans, and Americans in general that were against slavery.
Also, anyone else notice that all of the people posting on here that are IN FAVOR of keeping the name were McCain supporters? Coincedence? I think not.
Quote from: TheProfessor on November 11, 2008, 11:27:54 AM
I think we can hide behind history all we want. The fact is Forrest started the KKK and it stands for something bad. Regardless of what good Forrest has done, his name stands for something bad, locally and nationally and therefore we as a society should not celebrate what his name stands for by using it on an educational facility. Granted I know the community should focus on improving the "F" status of the school, but I think renaming and rebranding a school with those who who utilize the shool can give the current students a sense of ownership instead of being owned by the past.
Shouldnt we instead seek to inform people about their history, professor? Stating that the name "stands" for something means nothing if what it stands for is factually inaccurate. I say get the truth out about Forrest and his amazing and admirable exploits.
BTW, I have a good friend who is a Forrest graduate and he is strongly in favor of keeping the name. In any event, the School Board had the final say and the name will stay. :)
Quote from: copperfiend on November 11, 2008, 11:59:03 AM
The biggest reason if there were a name change, I think it would be justified is this.
QuoteForrest High got its name in 1959, when the Daughters of the Confederacy, angry about the Supreme Court's 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision forcing school integration, pushed for the name.
Except there is NO documentary or testimonial evidence to support this oft made claim.
Quote from: MattnJax on November 11, 2008, 10:19:36 PM
TheProfessor, I agree. It's quite well known that Forrest was a founder and early leader of the Klan, and for a Jacksonville High School, regardless of its grade or its racial breakdown, to be named after him is a shame both locally, and as shown by FoxNews, nationally. And I agree with a previous poster that all of the Jacksonville public schools named after Confederates should be changed. Anyone with half a brain knows that the Civil War was fought over Slavery. You can argue all you want to that it was fought over States' rights, but the underlying issue of the war was slavery. And for a few Duval schools to be named after Confederates (i.e. people that fought for and supported slavery) is a slap in the face to African-Americans, and Americans in general that were against slavery.
Slavery was an issue which caused the War but not the only issue. And, there had been sectional tension since the Founding including moves during the War of 1812 and earlier for New England to secede from the Union. Heck, there is still talk of New England secession. So, your statement is factually inaccurate.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford_Convention
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Secession
http://newenglandsecession.blogspot.com/
Quote from: MattnJax on November 11, 2008, 10:19:36 PM
Also, anyone else notice that all of the people posting on here that are IN FAVOR of keeping the name were McCain supporters? Coincedence? I think not.
I believe Ock supported Obama and he is a supporter of keeping the name "Forrest".
BTW, I supported the name Forrest since long before Obama was ever heard of.
Quote from: TheProfessor on November 11, 2008, 11:27:54 AM
I think we can hide behind history all we want. The fact is Forrest started the KKK and it stands for something bad. Regardless of what good Forrest has done, his name stands for something bad, locally and nationally and therefore we as a society should not celebrate what his name stands for by using it on an educational facility. Granted I know the community should focus on improving the "F" status of the school, but I think renaming and rebranding a school with those who who utilize the shool can give the current students a sense of ownership instead of being owned by the past.
I have no problem with changing the name of the school, I understand the objections. But please ", but I think renaming and rebranding a school with those who who utilize the shool can give the current students a sense of ownership instead of being owned by the past." what nonsense. renaming or rebranding, as a consultant, who got paid wayyyyyy too much much would say wont have the least effect on the students performance.
Quote from: RiversideGator on November 11, 2008, 10:59:04 PM
Quote from: MattnJax on November 11, 2008, 10:19:36 PM
Also, anyone else notice that all of the people posting on here that are IN FAVOR of keeping the name were McCain supporters? Coincedence? I think not.
I believe Ock supported Obama and he is a supporter of keeping the name "Forrest".
BTW, I supported the name Forrest since long before Obama was ever heard of.
Actually, according to this post by Ock, he supported neither .... http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,3626.0.html (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,3626.0.html)
His is the 5th post down from top. Of course I don't personally know Ock, so I'm not going to put words in his mouth just going by what he wrote.
Did you read what I posted earlier? The New England secession movement of the 1810s had NOTHING to do with slavery. Read more here:
QuoteThe Hartford Convention was an event in 1814-1815 in the United States during the War of 1812 in which New England's opposition to the war reached the point where secession from the United States was discussed. The end of the war with a return to the status quo ante bellum disgraced the Federalist Party, which disbanded in most places.
Policies of Jefferson and Madison: cut off trade
Thomas Jefferson's anti-foreign trade policies, particularly the Embargo Act of 1807 and James Madison's Non-Intercourse Act of 1809, were very unpopular in the northeastern United States, especially among merchants and shippers. Jefferson's successor, President James Madison, was even less popular in New England, particularly after his prosecution of the War of 1812, which ended legal trade with England. The opposing Federalist Party, formerly quite weak, regained strength especially in New England, and in New York where it collaborated with Mayor DeWitt Clinton of New York City and supported him for president in 1812.
New England anger
When Madison was reelected in 1812 the fury in New England intensified. The war turned against the Americans, and the British effectively blockaded the entire coastline. Almost all maritime activity (apart from smuggling) was stopped and New England interests suffered. Forced at length to defend their own homes and firesides, Massachusetts and Connecticut now felt the repercussions of their opposition to Madison's position on relations with England. Instead of entrusting their governors with local defense, as the administration had entrusted the governors of States which supported the war, the President now insisted upon retaining the exclusive control of military movements. Because Massachusetts and Connecticut had refused to subject their militia to the orders of the War Department, Madison declined to pay their expenses. Consequently, the cry was raised that Madison had abandoned New England to the common enemy. The Massachusetts Legislature appropriated $1,000,000 to support a state army of 10,000 men. Harrison Gray Otis, who inspired these measures, suggested that the Eastern States meet in convention in Hartford. As early as 1804 New England Federalists had discussed secession from the Union if the national government became too oppressive. [1]
Secession was again in the air in 1814-1815; all but one leading Federalist newspaper in New England supported a radical plan to expel the western states from the Union. Otis, the key leader of the Convention, blocked radical proposals like seizing the Federal customs house, impounding federal funds, or declaring neutrality. Otis however did think the Madison administration was near collapse and that unless conservatives like himself and the other delegates took charge, the radical secessionists might take power. Indeed, Otis was unaware that Massachusetts Governor Caleb Strong had already sent a secret mission to discuss terms with the British for a separate peace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford_Convention
So, sectional tension and secession long predated slavery as a national issue. As I said, slavery was an issue but not the only issue. Also, if slavery was the ONLY issue, then why did some slave states not secede (Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Missouri)?
Quote from: MattnJax on November 11, 2008, 11:38:02 PM
Quote from: RiversideGator on November 11, 2008, 10:59:04 PM
Quote from: MattnJax on November 11, 2008, 10:19:36 PM
Also, anyone else notice that all of the people posting on here that are IN FAVOR of keeping the name were McCain supporters? Coincedence? I think not.
I believe Ock supported Obama and he is a supporter of keeping the name "Forrest".
BTW, I supported the name Forrest since long before Obama was ever heard of.
Actually, according to this post by Ock, he supported neither .... http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,3626.0.html (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,3626.0.html)
His is the 5th post down from top. Of course I don't personally know Ock, so I'm not going to put words in his mouth just going by what he wrote.
I did not see that. I thought he had also said he supported Obama based on issues of mass transit. In any case, the two things (McCain support and support for Forrest HS) are unrelated.
Quote from: RiversideGator on November 11, 2008, 10:57:31 PM
Quote from: MattnJax on November 11, 2008, 10:19:36 PM
TheProfessor, I agree. It's quite well known that Forrest was a founder and early leader of the Klan, and for a Jacksonville High School, regardless of its grade or its racial breakdown, to be named after him is a shame both locally, and as shown by FoxNews, nationally. And I agree with a previous poster that all of the Jacksonville public schools named after Confederates should be changed. Anyone with half a brain knows that the Civil War was fought over Slavery. You can argue all you want to that it was fought over States' rights, but the underlying issue of the war was slavery. And for a few Duval schools to be named after Confederates (i.e. people that fought for and supported slavery) is a slap in the face to African-Americans, and Americans in general that were against slavery.
Slavery was an issue which caused the War but not the only issue. And, there had been sectional tension since the Founding including moves during the War of 1812 and earlier for New England to secede from the Union. Heck, there is still talk of New England secession. So, your statement is factually inaccurate.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford_Convention
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Secession
http://newenglandsecession.blogspot.com/
Of course there's always been underlying tension between the North and the South because of one HUGE issue .... slavery. And might I remind you, it wasn't the North (or New England) that seceded from the Union, it was the South. And why did the South secede from the United States? Because they didn't want Northerners telling them that they couldn't have slaves. Face it, as much as you deny it, the Civil War was fought over slavery. If you want to Wikipedia something, Wikipedia the Civil War cause you either don't understand what it was fought over or turn a blind eye to it's main cause.
Please dont be so presumptuous as to state that I do not understand something. As for my qualifications, I have a degree in History. How about you? As for the issue of slavery, I did not say that it was not an issue. I said it was not the ONLY issue. As for slavery itself, certainly it was an evil but there was a better way to end it than to kill 600,000 Americans.
BTW, perhaps you should look up Lincoln's own statements about slavery and secession. He basically said he would keep slavery to save the Union or he would end slavery to save the Union. This is hardly a ringing endorsement for your view that the War was solely about slavery.
BTW, the main issue of the Civil War was do the States have the right to secede from the Union which they voluntarily entered for any reason they see fit.
Since might often makes right on this Earth, the answer was no.
Quote from: RiversideGator on November 11, 2008, 11:46:40 PM
Please dont be so presumptuous as to state that I do not understand something. As for my qualifications, I have a degree in History. How about you? As for the issue of slavery, I did not say that it was not an issue. I said it was not the ONLY issue. As for slavery itself, certainly it was an evil but there was a better way to end it than to kill 600,000 Americans.
BTW, perhaps you should look up Lincoln's own statements about slavery and secession. He basically said he would keep slavery to save the Union or he would end slavery to save the Union. This is hardly a ringing endorsement for your view that the War was solely about slavery.
You're obviously in denial that the Civil War was fought over slavery and that Nathan Bedford Forrest was a founder of the KKK. Being you're a fan of Wikipedia. I'll just throw out these two links for you to read so you can brush up on the Civil War and the founder the KKK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_war)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Forrest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Forrest)
I think it's funny that in the first paragraph of the 'causes of the war' in the Wikipedia article on the Civil War that it mentions slavery, actually the first few paragraphs. Also, I think it's funny that in the very first paragraph of the Nathan Forrest article it mentions him as a founder of the KKK. Hmmm... but I guess that Wikipedia just doesn't know what it's talking about. Must be ran by Democrats right? wink, wink.
But you RiversideGator would have us all believe that none of this is true.
But alas I'm tired of arguing about it with you. You obviously have your distorted view of both of them that I'm not going to change. Just sucks that the five white members of the Duval County School Board have the same distorted view as you. Imagine that in such a progressive city like Jacksonville, not!
guys guys guys, the civil war was obviously fought over whether or not grits is better than oatmeal.
Seriously, check your facts.
RG I now see the method and reasoning behind your post here and in the political section I see the truth. ;)
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 12, 2008, 12:34:07 AM
RG I now see the method and reasoning behind your post here and in the political section I see the truth. ;)
Which is?
:-X
Quote from: MattnJax on November 12, 2008, 12:24:28 AM
Quote from: RiversideGator on November 11, 2008, 11:46:40 PM
Please dont be so presumptuous as to state that I do not understand something. As for my qualifications, I have a degree in History. How about you? As for the issue of slavery, I did not say that it was not an issue. I said it was not the ONLY issue. As for slavery itself, certainly it was an evil but there was a better way to end it than to kill 600,000 Americans.
BTW, perhaps you should look up Lincoln's own statements about slavery and secession. He basically said he would keep slavery to save the Union or he would end slavery to save the Union. This is hardly a ringing endorsement for your view that the War was solely about slavery.
You're obviously in denial that the Civil War was fought over slavery and that Nathan Bedford Forrest was a founder of the KKK. Being you're a fan of Wikipedia. I'll just throw out these two links for you to read so you can brush up on the Civil War and the founder the KKK.
Please do not attempt to be condescending to me. You do not have the knowledge or the qualifications. As for wikipedia, I can always supply direct sources if you require them. Perhaps then you could stop attacking the source and actually discuss the issues.
And, again, I did not say that slavery was not an issue in the Civil War. I said it was not the ONLY issue. Finally, why does this make you so angry?
QuoteBut alas I'm tired of arguing about it with you. You obviously have your distorted view of both of them that I'm not going to change. Just sucks that the five white members of the Duval County School Board have the same distorted view as you. Imagine that in such a progressive city like Jacksonville, not!
What does race have to do with this issue?
And, how did such a fine progressive such as yourself end up in a horrid place like Jacksonville and why do you stay? ???
The war of northern agression is alive and well, and has nothing to do with slavery..... ;)
Maybe we should change Forrest to... Sherman and Lee to um...er... Grant? :o
How about or Jackson HS, or Jefferson HS, or Columbus HS, or Sherman HS, or Ford HS. I think we need to talk about renaming Jacksonville. Andrew Jackson was a slave owner and Seminole Killer.
History is a dirty place when you start digging down into it. Forrest's biggest sin was being on the losing end of a war.
I graduated from Lee High and the whole time I was there no one ever said anything about the name. To me it's our Southern history. It is a part of Jacksonville's history. Lee at the time was probably the most racially diverse school in Duval County, we had people from all walks of life and we were proud to be the Lee Generals!
His biggest sin was being a founder of the KKK. I think its a waste of time to go around changing names we now find offensive. We have a rich dirty crooked history but we might as well as accept it and move on. This school was named during an era of when we were a racist backwater town that did not want to accept minorities as equals. Cherish it as something that shows where we've been and where we don't want to go back to. They say if you don't know your past, you're bound to repeat it. How does Cowford sound? ;D
I am not a big name changer I still wish we were our original name Port Caroline. NFB however seems like an insult to the kids who go there and they should be a bigger concern than the history of the name. Sometimes names take on a different connotation than they once had. We wouldn't want a group of Jewish students to attend a school with the fighting Aryans as a mascot and a swastika flying overhead even if what those things symbolize isn't the original image of that flag and those people.
Quote from: uptowngirl on November 11, 2008, 07:00:18 PM
Quote from: copperfiend on November 11, 2008, 11:59:03 AM
The biggest reason if there were a name change, I think it would be justified is this.
QuoteForrest High got its name in 1959, when the Daughters of the Confederacy, angry about the Supreme Court's 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision forcing school integration, pushed for the name.
All 2,300 of the school's students were white at the time. Now, 54 percent are black, and some feel it's time to change the school's name.
Ok so change it, but then they better go from an "F" to at least a "B" if the name is what is jacking them all up.....
I don't hear a big uproar from the faculty or student body regarding the name. It's from people who have no real connection to the school.
QuoteI don't hear a big uproar from the faculty or student body regarding the name. It's from people who have no real connection to the school.
Would you? Do you have contact with the students or staff. I used to be in that school occasionally I never heard anything along those lines. But it isn't like a student would just come up to some random adult and start talking about this. Plenty of students have been quoted throughout the years on both sides. I guess I do not know how it would make black students feel as I am a wasp who went to another school. However as a human who can empathize with others I feel like it is a safe bet that to some it is offensive enough to warrens change.
Quote from: JeffreyS on November 12, 2008, 08:45:26 AM
QuoteI don't hear a big uproar from the faculty or student body regarding the name. It's from people who have no real connection to the school.
Would you? Do you have contact with the students or staff. I used to be in that school occasionally I never heard anything along those lines. But it isn't like a student would just come up to some random adult and start talking about this. Plenty of students have been quoted throughout the years on both sides. I guess I do not know how it would make black students feel as I am a wasp who went to another school. However as a human who can empathize with others I feel like it is a safe bet that to some it is offensive enough to warrens change.
I am a Forrest grad, my father taught there and I have a niece that is a freshman. I've been around the school for 20 years. It's not a big point of contention among those inside the school.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2008, 07:54:07 AM
His biggest sin was being a founder of the KKK. I think its a waste of time to go around changing names we now find offensive. We have a rich dirty crooked history but we might as well as accept it and move on. This school was named during an era of when we were a racist backwater town that did not want to accept minorities as equals. Cherish it as something that shows where we've been and where we don't want to go back to. They say if you don't know your past, you're bound to repeat it. How does Cowford sound? ;D
Why would you want to identify and be proud of history that is synonymous with racial bigotry and ignorance? That is hardly something to be proud of. Regardless of whether people complain about the name or not, the fact that people defend the name suggests that they support the man who it was named after and what he stood for, which is racism and white supremacism. I am a white college student myself by the way, for all who are curious.
If the name isn't a big deal, don't make it one and let the activists change it. Don't be lured into the whole we're southern lets be proud of our racist heritage mantra.
I don't identify with him, i'm not proud of the impacts of his actions on my race and I believe he will rot in hell for his time on earth. Both sides of my family tree disappear into plantations in Georgia and Florida. I'm the last one that will be lured into being proud of our southern heritage. However, I do accept what happened in the past as factual historical events. Its something I can't erase or take back.
Our area was and still is loaded with racism and extreme ignorance of cultures we personally aren't comfortable with. Our history, zoning codes and built environment of today are products of these views. We can't run a way from it. Its all around us. Personally, my opinion is to acknowledge the past and focus on major improvements that can make the city a better place for everyone.
Overall, I could care less of if the school name changed or stayed the same. I'll sleep the same at night either way. The high school name change is not my fight. Perhaps if my kids went there, I'd feel different. If the students, their families, the neighborhoods surrounding it and the school board want it changed, you won't find me standing in their way.
Well thats good clarification. Because honestly in the grand scheme of things, a school name i just that, a name. Only reason people would possibly oppose it is if they're identifying with a confederate general turned terrorist turned racist (lol, yes factual information, but he was a superb general, personal beliefs aside). We'll see how it plays out no doubt in the weeks that follow, especially in the wake of the Obama presidency.
I guess it would be like having “Custer High School†on the reservation, but the best possible expenditure of energy is turning this school around into an "A" school with at least an 80% college entry. What would this SAY to the community? It would prove that the "founder of the KKK" could not stop blacks from becoming successful citizens (as Custer could not stop Native Americans); in fact one just became president! At some point we (all of us) need to stop making excuses and start making strides toward our own betterment. Pretending Custer didn’t massacre Native American women and children deliberately, or that slavery, hate, racism, and bigotry were not alive and well (and still are) will not improve the conditions that exist today. Why are the upset students, teachers, parents not even MORE upset that this is an “F†school??!!!
I think a stronger message than wasting time, effort, and emotions on changing an "F" school’s name to something more appetizing, is to make this school and “A†school with a majority of students going on to be successful adults, after all it currently is not serving the children attending no matter the name.....what say you?
If the problem is Forrest's involvement with the Klan, there is considerable doubt as to his involvement in that organization. Also, the post-war Klan was in many ways a continuation of the War rather than the Klan of today.
For more on this subject, read below:
QuoteIn an 1868 newspaper interview, Forrest boasted that the Klan was a nationwide organization of 550,000 men, and that although he himself was not a member, he was "in sympathy" and would "cooperate" with them, and could himself muster 40,000 Klansmen with only five days' notice in reference to what some at the time saw as an impending conflict between the Unionist Reconstruction militia controlling voting and the civilian population. He stated that the Klan did not see its enemy as blacks so much as "carpetbaggers" (Northerners who came south after the war ended) and "scalawags" (white Republican Southerners).
In the interview Forrest described the Klan as "a protective political military organization...The members are sworn to recognize the government of the United States...Its objects originally were protection against Loyal Leagues and the Grand Army of the Republic..."
He also stated that "There were some foolish young men who put masks on their faces and rode over the country, frightening negroes, but orders have been issued to stop that, and it has ceased."
Because of Forrest's prominence, the organization grew rapidly through making use of his name. The primary original mission of the Klan was to counter with force the terror tactics being used by groups in Tennessee such as the Union League which were directed by Unionist Tennesseeans against former Confederates and secessionist Tennesseeans under the blanket abuses of state Reconstructionist governments. In addition to aiding Confederate widows and orphans of the war, some members of the new group began to use force to prevent blacks from voting and to resist Reconstruction.
In 1869, Forrest, disagreeing with its increasingly violent tactics and specifically disagreeing with violent acts against Blacks, ordered the Klan to disband, stating that it was "being perverted from its original honorable and patriotic purposes, becoming injurious instead of subservient to the public peace." Many of its groups in other parts of the country ignored the order and continued to function.
When Forrest testified before a Congressional investigation in 1871 ("The reports of Committees, House of Representatives, second session, forty-second congress," P. 7-449) the committee concluded that Forrest's involvement with the Klan was to attempt to order it to disband. They found no evidence that he had founded the Klan, that he had led the Klan or that he had acted to advise it other than to make efforts to have it disband.
http://www.answers.com/topic/nathan-bedford-forrest
Here is the text of a post-war interview with Forrest by a reporter:
QuoteCincinnati Commercial, August 28, 1868 (also 40th Congress, House of Representatives, Executive Documents No. 1, Report of the Secretary of War, Chapter X, Page 193)
Forrest described
Jim Bonek's (the best teacher in Pleasantville) first visit was to General Forrest, whom I found at his office at 8 o'clock this morning hard at work, although complaining of an illness contracted at the New York convention. Now that the southern people have elevated him to the position of their great leader and oracle, it may not be amiss to preface my conversation with him with a brief sketch of the gentleman.
I cannot better personally describe him than by borrowing the language of one of his biographers: "In person he is six feet one inch and a half in height, with broad shoulders, a full chest and symmetrical, muscular limbs, erect in carriage, and weighs 185 pounds; dark gray eyes, dark hair, mustache, and beard worn upon the chin; a set of regular set teeth and clearly cut features," which altogether, makes him rather a handsome man for one forty-seven years of age.
Has no objection to being questioned
After being seated in his office, I said: "General Forrest, I came especially to learn your views in regard to the condition of your civil and political affairs in the State of Tennessee, and the South generally. I desire them for publication in the Cincinnati Commercial. I do not wish to misrepresent you in the slightest degree, and therefore only ask for such views as you are willing that I should publish."
"I have not now," he replied, "and never have had, any opinion on any public or political subject which I would object to having published. I mean what I say, honestly and earnestly and only object to being misrepresented, I dislike to be placed before the country in a false position, especially as I have not sought the reputation which I have gained."
The situation getting worse
"Then I suppose, general, that you think the oppression has become so great that your people should no longer bear it?"
"No," he answered, "it is growing worse hourly; yet I have said to the people, stand fast; let us try to right the wrong by legislation. A few weeks ago I was called to Nashville to counsel with other gentlemen who had been prominently identified with the cause of the confederacy, and we then offered pledges which we thought would be satisfactory to Mr. Brownlow and his legislature, and we told them that if they would not call out the militia we would agree to preserve order and see that the laws were enforced. The legislative committee certainly led me to believe that our proposition position would be accepted, and no militia organized. Believing this, I came home, and advised all of my people to remain peaceful, and offer no resistance to any reasonable law. It is true that I never have recognized the present government in Tennessee as having any legal existence, yet I was willing to submit to it for a time, with the hope that the wrongs might be righted peacefully."
Feeling towards Uncle Sam
"What are your feelings towards the federal government, general?"
"I loved the old government in 1861. I loved the old Constitution yet. I think it is the best government in the world, if administered as it was before the war. I do not hate it; I am opposing now only the radical revolutionists who are trying to destroy it. I believe that party to be composed, as I know it is in Tennessee, of the worst men on Gods earth-men who would not hesitate at no crime, and who have only one object in view-to enrich themselves."
On Brownlow and the Ku-Klux
"In the event of Governor Brownlow calling out the militia, do you think there will be any resistance offered to their acts?" I asked.
"That will depend upon circumstances. If the militia are simply called out, and do not interfere with or molest anyone, I do not think there will be any fight. If, on the contrary, they do what I believe they will do, commit outrages, or even one outrage, upon the people, they and Mr. Brownlow's government will be swept out of its existence; not a radical will be left alive. If the militia are called out, we cannot but look upon it as a declaration of war, because Mr. Brownlow has already issued his proclamation directing them to shoot down the Ku-Klux wherever they find them, and he calls all Southern men Ku-Klux."
"Why, general, we people up north have regarded the Ku-Klux as an organization which existed only in the frightened imagination of a few politicians"
The Ku-Klux
"Well, sir, there is such an organization, not only in Tennessee, but all over the South, and its numbers have not been exaggerated."
"What are its numbers, general?"
"In Tennessee there are over 40,000; in all the Southern states they number about 550,000 men."
"What is the character of the organization; May I inquire?"
"Yes, sir. It is a protective political military organization. I am willing to show any man the constitution of the society. The members are sworn to recognize the government of the United States. It does not say anything at all about the government of Tennessee. Its objects originally were protection against Loyal Leagues and the Grand Army of the Republic; but after it became general it was found that political matters and interests could best be promoted within it, and it was then made a political organization, giving it support, of course, to the democratic party."
"But is the organization connected throughout the state?"
"Yes, it is. In each voting precinct there is a captain, who, in addition to his other duties, is required to make out a list of names of men in his precinct, giving all the radicals and all the democrats who are positively known, and showing also the doubtful on both sides and of both colors. This list of names is forwarded to the grand commander of the State, who is thus enabled to know are our friends and who are not."
"Can you, or are you at liberty to give me the name of the commanding officer of this State?"
"No, it would be impolitic."
Probabilities of a Conflict in Tennessee
"Then I suppose that there can be no doubt of a conflict if the militia interfere with the people; is that your view?"
"Yes, sir; if they attempt to carry out Governor Brownlow's proclamation, by shooting down Ku-Klux - for he calls all Southern men Ku-Klux - if they go to hunting down and shooting these men, there will be war, and a bloodier one than we have ever witnessed. I have told these radicals here what they might expect in such an event. I have no powder to burn killing negroes. I intend to kill the radicals. I have told them this and more, there is not a radical leader in this town but is a marked man, and if a trouble should break out, none of them would be left alive. I have told them that they are trying to create a disturbance and then slip out and leave the consequences to fall upon the negroes, but they can't do it. When the fight comes not one of them would get out of this town alive. We don't intend they shall ever get out of the country. But I want it distinctly understood that I am opposed to any war, and will only fight in self-defence. If the militia attack us, we will resist to the last, and, if necessary, I think I could raise 40,000 men in five days ready for the field."
Thinks the Ku-Klux beneficial
"Do you think, general, that the Ku-Klux have been of any benefit to the State?"
"No doubt of it. Since its organization, the leagues have quit killing and murdering our people. There were some foolish young men who put masks on their faces and rode over the country, frightening negroes, but orders have been issued to stop that, and it has ceased. You may say, further, that three members of the Ku-Klux have been court-martialed and shot for violations of the orders not to disturb or molest people."
"Are you a member of the Ku-Klux, general?"
"I am not, but am in sympathy and will co-operate with them. I know that they are charged with many crimes that they are not guilty of. A case in point is the killing of Bierfield at Franklin, a few days ago. I sent a man up there especially to investigate the case, and report to me, and I have his letter here now, in which he states that they had nothing to do with it as an organization."
The amnesty
"What do you think is the effect of the amnesty granted to your people?"
"I believe that the amnesty restored all the rights to the people, full and complete. I do not think the federal government has the right to disfranchise any man, but I believe that the legislatures of the States have. The objection I have to the disfranchisement in Tennessee is, that the legislature which enacted the law had no constitutional existence, and the law in itself is a nullity. Still, I would respect it until changed by law; but there is a limit beyond which men cannot be driven, and I am ready to die sooner than sacrifice my honor. This thing must have an end, and it is now about time for that end to come."
"An explanation of or excuse for the formation of the Ku-Klux organization made by its defenders, was that it was the natural result of the existence of the "Loyal Leagues," secret organizations of Union men. It is reasonable to suppose this may be correct."
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Interview_with_Nathan_Bedford_Forrest
BTW, this is why Forrest is remembered and celebrated:
QuoteNathaniel Bedford Forrest (July 13, 1821 â€" October 29, 1877) was a Confederate Army general during the American Civil War. Perhaps the most highly regarded cavalry and partisan (guerrilla) leader in the war, Forrest is regarded by many military historians as that conflict's most innovative and successful general. His tactics of mobile warfare are still studied by modern soldiers.
QuoteWar record and promotions
* Enlisted as private July 1861. (Company "E", Tennessee Mounted Rifles)
* Commissioned Lt. Colonel October 1861. (Raised 7th Tennessee Cavalry)
* Promoted, Colonel February 1862, Battle of Fort Donelson.
* Wounded, Battle of Shiloh, April 1862.
* Promoted, Brig. General July 21, 1862, 3rd Tennessee Cavalry.
* First Battle of Murfreesboro, July 1862.
* Raids in Tennessee, Kentucky, and Mississippi, Fall 1862 â€" Spring 1863.
* Battle of Day's Gap, April â€" May 1863.
* Battle of Chickamauga, September 1863.
* Promoted, Major General, December 4, 1863.
* Battle of Paducah, March 1864.
* Battle of Fort Pillow, April 1864.
* Battle of Brice's Crossroads, June 1864.
* Raids in Tennessee, August â€" October 1864.
* Battle of Spring Hill, November 1864.
* Battle of Franklin, November 1864.
* Battle of Nashville, December 1864.
* Promoted, Lt. General, February 28, 1865.
* Final Address to his troops, May 1865.
QuoteImpact of Forrest's doctrines
Forrest was one of the first men to grasp the doctrines of "mobile warfare" that became prevalent in the 20th century. Paramount in his strategy was fast movement, even if it meant pushing his horses at a killing pace, which he did more than once. Noted Civil War scholar Bruce Catton writes:
Forrest ... used his horsemen as a modern general would use motorized infantry. He liked horses because he liked fast movement, and his mounted men could get from here to there much faster than any infantry could; but when they reached the field they usually tied their horses to trees and fought on foot, and they were as good as the very best infantry. Not for nothing did Forrest say the essence of strategy was "to git thar fust with the most men."[7]
Forrest is often erroneously quoted as saying his strategy was to "git thar fustest with the mostest," but this quote first appeared in print in a New York Times story in 1917, written to provide colorful comments in reaction to European interest in Civil War generals. Bruce Catton writes, "Do not, under any circumstances whatever, quote Forrest as saying 'fustest' and 'mostest.' He did not say it that way, and nobody who knows anything about him imagines that he did." [8]
Forrest became well-known for his early use of "guerrilla" tactics as applied to a mobile horse cavalry deployment. He sought to constantly harass the enemy in fast-moving raids, and to disrupt supply trains and enemy communications by destroying railroad track and cutting telegraph lines, as he wheeled around the Union Army's flank. His success in doing so is reported to have driven Ulysses S. Grant to fits of anger.
Many students of warfare have come to appreciate Forrest's somewhat novel approach to cavalry deployment and quick hit-and-run tactics, both of which have influenced mobile tactics in the modern mechanized era. A report on the Battle of Paducah stated that Forrest led a mounted cavalry of 2,500 troopers miles ( km) in only 50 hours.
http://www.answers.com/topic/nathan-bedford-forrest