Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Tucson---November-2025/i-PjL8wtN/0/LMqKts87G4z6sC5whczBF6wkT3pS4tTb38KvJHkKN/L/20251101_134919-L.jpg)
As JTA's Ultimate Urban Circulator faces growing scrutiny from the Duval DOGE committee, it's worth turning our gaze westward to a smaller, less dense city that's managed to do what Jacksonville has not: build a thriving modern streetcar network. Welcome to Tucson, Arizona.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/smaller-than-jax-but-i-have-rail-lessons-from-tucson/
An excellent article.
The sad and aggravating part of this is that the Better Jacksonville Plan included millions of dollars for rail transit. The funds were diverted to cover cost overruns on BJP roadway and vertical (e.g., the Court House) projects. If BJP sales tax money could be redirected, it seems Council could do the same with the U2C funds.
Sadly I do not see anyone in this current political landscape ponying up for light rail. Without some big private push. There looking to slash spending not enhance the quality of life.
Was there ever any consideration given to building out one or more of the legs of the First Coast Flyer to be rail-upgradeable, with dedicated infrastructure and platforms, versus shared travel lanes?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 24, 2025, 04:43:48 PM
Was there ever any consideration given to building out one or more of the legs of the First Coast Flyer to be rail-upgradeable, with dedicated infrastructure and platforms, versus shared travel lanes?
If I remember correctly, during the referendum campaign, this concept was floated as a possibility. However, by the time the Flyers were implemented, they became regular bus routes running in mixed traffic. The exclusive lanes discussed prior to implementation shrank to a couple of miles in LaVilla and the Southbank.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 24, 2025, 04:43:48 PM
Was there ever any consideration given to building out one or more of the legs of the First Coast Flyer to be rail-upgradeable, with dedicated infrastructure and platforms, versus shared travel lanes?
Jax likes to talk stuff like this but BRT and fixed-rail are two entirely different types of systems. There's not many successful examples in the U.S. of a bus system being upgrading into rail. They tend to complement each other as a part of an overall transit network, not being a replacement for the other.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 24, 2025, 05:10:21 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 24, 2025, 04:43:48 PM
Was there ever any consideration given to building out one or more of the legs of the First Coast Flyer to be rail-upgradeable, with dedicated infrastructure and platforms, versus shared travel lanes?
If I remember correctly, during the referendum campaign, this concept was floated as a possibility. However, by the time the Flyers were implemented, they became regular bus routes running in mixed traffic. The exclusive lanes discussed prior to implementation shrank to a couple of miles in LaVilla and the Southbank.
There was an unrealistic plan to build elevated dedicated bus lanes over the expressways. If you're doing this, you may as well build rail because there's no cost savings in doing a bus. Naturally, we were right about the estimates and it got scaled back to what the First Coast Flyer is today.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-Elevated-graphic.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-system-map.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/brt/nabi60brt.gif)
If the North Florida TPO was doing its job properly, it would be actively advocating and planning for a regional light rail system. Lately, I haven't heard a peep from them about anything other than building and supporting more roads, mainly the interstates and beltways. About as bad thinking about mass transit as JTA. What little they say has just amounted to talk, no substance.
We need to start now to have light rail in 10 years... right of way, plus design and engineering, is going to take forever and it only gets more difficult and expensive as the metro population explodes.
If there was any forethought, FDOT should have master planned light rail to run down our interstates, either along side or elevated, as an option and/or complement to the CSX, FEC and NS rail corridors. Especially with the ongoing rebuilds of I 10 and I 95.
Regardless, crickets for any movement anytime on the horizon. Jaxson posters will be 6 feet under before Jax sees light rail at this rate.
^I'm personally not sold that LRT just to do LRT even makes sense in this town but I do know this. There's been talk of LRT in Jax going as far back to the Delaney administration. Even had $100 million in BJP funds for rapid transit. JTA has found a way to bungle opportunities for a couple of decades now unfortunately. I also know when you add up the hundreds of millions burned locally, Jax has the power and capacity to do anything Jax wants. That can be a plus and negative, depending on who's controlling the bank account.
Prior to the election, our mayor communicated with me several times very much favorably in regards to modern streetcar. Once she became mayor and was wined, dined and dazzled by JTA's picture books, charts and finger paintings I consider that they may have convinced her that a 15 passenger glorified golf cart moving at 10-15 mph (NOTE 1) along a Skyway designed for 35 (NOTE 2) is far superior to a 150 passenger modern streetcar traveling at 44 mph in a transit lane, median, railroad right-of-way, exclusive right-of-way or mixed traffic lane.
Perhaps the most effective approach for THE JAXSON MAGAZINE and rail supporters to pursue would be to arm the Chamber of Commerce, prominent professionals and developers with the knowledge that streetcars attract private TRANSIT ORIENTED DEVELOPMENT. Streetcar projects often show a return on investment (ROI) of around 3-to-1, meaning for every dollar spent, approximately three dollars are generated in local economic impact. This includes benefits such as increased property values, job creation, and business growth along the streetcar routes.
For the first time since the advent of the USA's modern light rail transit (LRT) revolution in the mid-1970s, the modern streetcar — a scaled-down version of higher-performance LRT — has emerged as the leading form of LRT development for launching urban rail in American cities. Characterized by typically shorter stop spacing, somewhat slower speeds, more reliance on sharing road space with motor vehicle traffic, and often slightly smaller rolling stock, streetcars seem to be perceived as a more financially accessible path to initiate a new local urban rail system scaled to the needs of communities previously dependent only on buses for their public transit.
However, because its technology is nearly identical to high-performance LRT, streetcar starter lines may offer the basis of a system that can be upgraded to "full" LRT via affordable and reasonable modifications.
https://www.kansascity.com/news/business/development/article294730419.html#newshunter
https://portlandstreetcar.org/more/planning-projects
NOTE 1: CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS
§ 571.500 Standard No. 500; Low-speed vehicles.
(a) When tested in accordance with test conditions in S6 and test procedures in S7, the maximum speed attainable in 1.6 km (1 mile) by each low-speed vehicle shall not more than 40 kilometers per hour (25 miles per hour).
NOTE 2: SKYWAY MONORAIL -V- JTA U2C
The monorail trains reached 50mph on a short unofficial test according to several retired JTA officers. The national average speed of autonomous low-speed shuttles in regular service is 10-12 mph.
NOTE 3: One example of many proven off the shelf MODERN STREETCARS is the Brookville Liberty. The Brookville Liberty Modern Streetcar can reach a maximum speed of 35 to 44 miles per hour and has a seating capacity of 32 passengers, with a total capacity of 125 to 150 passengers when fully loaded.
See: https://www.brookvillecorp.com/products/streetcars/modern-streetcars/
OR: https://www.brookvillecorp.com/products/streetcars/
OCKLAWAHA 8)
- Members of the JTA board were previously Chamber of Commerce board members... and Chamber of Commerce board members were formerly JTA board members.
- Several current Chamber board members are employed or personally benefit from JTA.
- Most of our local business leaders finically benefit from JTA & are purposefully silent on the subject (and are also CoC Board Members).
We quite literally can't do anything about it. They are so deep in each other coffers, the only option will be for the state to add pressure (which I'm sure has already been taken care of & not of concern).
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 31, 2025, 10:01:03 PM
Prior to the election, our mayor communicated with me several times very much favorably in regards to modern streetcar. Once she became mayor and was wined, dined and dazzled by JTA's picture books, charts and finger paintings I consider that they may have convinced her that a 15 passenger glorified golf cart moving at 10-15 mph (NOTE 1) along a Skyway designed for 35 (NOTE 2) is far superior to a 150 passenger modern streetcar traveling at 44 mph in a transit lane, median, railroad right-of-way, exclusive right-of-way or mixed traffic lane.
Perhaps the most effective approach for THE JAXSON MAGAZINE and rail supporters to pursue would be to arm the Chamber of Commerce, prominent professionals and developers with the knowledge that streetcars attract private TRANSIT ORIENTED DEVELOPMENT. Streetcar projects often show a return on investment (ROI) of around 3-to-1, meaning for every dollar spent, approximately three dollars are generated in local economic impact. This includes benefits such as increased property values, job creation, and business growth along the streetcar routes.
For the first time since the advent of the USA's modern light rail transit (LRT) revolution in the mid-1970s, the modern streetcar — a scaled-down version of higher-performance LRT — has emerged as the leading form of LRT development for launching urban rail in American cities. Characterized by typically shorter stop spacing, somewhat slower speeds, more reliance on sharing road space with motor vehicle traffic, and often slightly smaller rolling stock, streetcars seem to be perceived as a more financially accessible path to initiate a new local urban rail system scaled to the needs of communities previously dependent only on buses for their public transit.
However, because its technology is nearly identical to high-performance LRT, streetcar starter lines may offer the basis of a system that can be upgraded to "full" LRT via affordable and reasonable modifications.
https://www.kansascity.com/news/business/development/article294730419.html#newshunter
https://portlandstreetcar.org/more/planning-projects
NOTE 1: CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS
§ 571.500 Standard No. 500; Low-speed vehicles.
(a) When tested in accordance with test conditions in S6 and test procedures in S7, the maximum speed attainable in 1.6 km (1 mile) by each low-speed vehicle shall not more than 40 kilometers per hour (25 miles per hour).
NOTE 2: SKYWAY MONORAIL -V- JTA U2C
The monorail trains reached 50mph on a short unofficial test according to several retired JTA officers. The national average speed of autonomous low-speed shuttles in regular service is 10-12 mph.
NOTE 3: One example of many proven off the shelf MODERN STREETCARS is the Brookville Liberty. The Brookville Liberty Modern Streetcar can reach a maximum speed of 35 to 44 miles per hour and has a seating capacity of 32 passengers, with a total capacity of 125 to 150 passengers when fully loaded.
See: https://www.brookvillecorp.com/products/streetcars/modern-streetcars/
OR: https://www.brookvillecorp.com/products/streetcars/
OCKLAWAHA 8)
The mayor is certainly a big proponent of other forms of transit, including modern streetcars, upgraded buses and rail. She spearheaded the current push to bring the passenger train station back Downtown, and thanks to that we have a capacity grant and forward momentum for the first time in 20 years. That was achieved by taking the lead and putting all the stakeholders in a room to figure it out. There's still significant siloing between entities that will need to work together to get more done, but we're working on just that.
Quote from: Tacachale on January 01, 2026, 04:12:51 PM
The mayor is certainly a big proponent of other forms of transit, including modern streetcars, upgraded buses and rail. She spearheaded the current push to bring the passenger train station back Downtown, and thanks to that we have a capacity grant and forward momentum for the first time in 20 years. That was achieved by taking the lead and putting all the stakeholders in a room to figure it out. There's still significant siloing between entities that will need to work together to get more done, but we're working on just that.
Give us some inside baseball... how does one approach the Mayor to show her another side to the U2C coin? Or, has she shut down any chance to listen to other points of view. Hopefully, not.
Amtrak downtown is great for tourism and Downtown development but it won't do much for local mass transit. However, $400 million redirected away from U2C to more appropriate solutions will. Actions speak louder than words.
Politically, she is also leaving herself vulnerable on this issue and Rory Diamond along with Curry and Company are ready to pounce.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 01, 2026, 07:48:37 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on January 01, 2026, 04:12:51 PM
The mayor is certainly a big proponent of other forms of transit, including modern streetcars, upgraded buses and rail. She spearheaded the current push to bring the passenger train station back Downtown, and thanks to that we have a capacity grant and forward momentum for the first time in 20 years. That was achieved by taking the lead and putting all the stakeholders in a room to figure it out. There's still significant siloing between entities that will need to work together to get more done, but we're working on just that.
Give us some inside baseball... how does one approach the Mayor to show her another side to the U2C coin? Or, has she shut down any chance to listen to other points of view. Hopefully, not.
Amtrak downtown is great for tourism and Downtown development but it won't do much for local mass transit. However, $400 million redirected away from U2C to more appropriate solutions will. Actions speak louder than words.
Politically, she is also leaving herself vulnerable on this issue and Rory Diamond along with Curry and Company are ready to pounce.
Can't say too much right now I'm afraid. The train station is just one I can speak on as it's public and I worked on it personally (Ennis also provided invaluable work on it). I'll say again, the mayor is very interested in transit and in breaking down the silos that have prevented coordination on it over the years.
^ I'm not going to ask for inside baseball, but I will say that the Mayor's public comments on transit have so far been deeply disappointing.
As much as it's unreasonable to expect a fully-specified regional transit plan immediately after taking office, it is reasonable to expect that after two and a half years in office there might be an indication (especially given that this Mayor has made full use of her available appointments to the JTA Board of Directors) of awareness regarding the basic practicality of mass transit in general versus JTA's approach to it. That hasn't happened, and we've instead gotten angry radio interviews (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,36924.msg534841.html#msg534841) claiming that we're obligated to follow through and throw a quarter billion dollars of good money after bad because she believes it's "the wave of the future."
Meanwhile, NAVI (https://www.jtafla.com/media-center/service-alerts/jta-holiday-hours-of-operation-for-dec-24-2025-jan-2-2026/) wasn't even running today. Sun Link (https://www.suntran.com/routes-services/holiday-schedules/) in Tucson was.
Quote from: Tacachale on January 01, 2026, 10:48:46 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 01, 2026, 07:48:37 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on January 01, 2026, 04:12:51 PM
The mayor is certainly a big proponent of other forms of transit, including modern streetcars, upgraded buses and rail. She spearheaded the current push to bring the passenger train station back Downtown, and thanks to that we have a capacity grant and forward momentum for the first time in 20 years. That was achieved by taking the lead and putting all the stakeholders in a room to figure it out. There's still significant siloing between entities that will need to work together to get more done, but we're working on just that.
Give us some inside baseball... how does one approach the Mayor to show her another side to the U2C coin? Or, has she shut down any chance to listen to other points of view. Hopefully, not.
Amtrak downtown is great for tourism and Downtown development but it won't do much for local mass transit. However, $400 million redirected away from U2C to more appropriate solutions will. Actions speak louder than words.
Politically, she is also leaving herself vulnerable on this issue and Rory Diamond along with Curry and Company are ready to pounce.
Can't say too much right now I'm afraid. The train station is just one I can speak on as it's public and I worked on it personally (Ennis also provided invaluable work on it). I'll say again, the mayor is very interested in transit and in breaking down the silos that have prevented coordination on it over the years.
IMO, getting intercity rail operations back to the old downtown train station is one of the biggest low hanging fruit that we can take advantage of on the intercity and local mass transit front, that doesn't involve a long political battle to overturn deeply ingrained good old fashioned Jacksonville nepotism, which is a major local industry in and of itself. First, you can't get far locally with anything fixed transit related (outside of the Skyway) without having that terminal back, up and running. Also, Amtrak already operates, so its maximizing and better utilizing something that already exist. Nevertheless, I also agree with anyone who believes the U2C is a generational waste of local tax dollars that comes at the massive expense of local mass transit system improvements citywide. That faster we can shift priority focus and local money to better serving transit users and local communities across the city, the better.
Quote from: Tacachale on January 01, 2026, 10:48:46 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 01, 2026, 07:48:37 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on January 01, 2026, 04:12:51 PM
The mayor is certainly a big proponent of other forms of transit, including modern streetcars, upgraded buses and rail. She spearheaded the current push to bring the passenger train station back Downtown, and thanks to that we have a capacity grant and forward momentum for the first time in 20 years. That was achieved by taking the lead and putting all the stakeholders in a room to figure it out. There's still significant siloing between entities that will need to work together to get more done, but we're working on just that.
Give us some inside baseball... how does one approach the Mayor to show her another side to the U2C coin? Or, has she shut down any chance to listen to other points of view. Hopefully, not.
Amtrak downtown is great for tourism and Downtown development but it won't do much for local mass transit. However, $400 million redirected away from U2C to more appropriate solutions will. Actions speak louder than words.
Politically, she is also leaving herself vulnerable on this issue and Rory Diamond along with Curry and Company are ready to pounce.
Can't say too much right now I'm afraid. The train station is just one I can speak on as it's public and I worked on it personally (Ennis also provided invaluable work on it). I'll say again, the mayor is very interested in transit and in breaking down the silos that have prevented coordination on it over the years.
What is there to break down? The city hired a guy with a Civil Engineering degree to build out a system that Trillion dollar companies are competing in with more than 15 years of a head start. JTA has zero, literally zero, employees with the technical experienced required to even make contract decisions for a system of this complexity.
As Marcus pointed out with the Mayor's interview she claims: "we've got people from Japan, people from Atlanta, people from all over the world that are looking at our system as a blueprint for how they might do their own..." is just an embarrassing statement.
All to say, the $400M of LOCAL spending is totally warranted to ALL be used by the U2C and NOT for ANY other forms of transit. Time, money & resources are not infinite. Maybe let her know that.