Metro Jacksonville

QuoteA look at five Downtown projects under construction and four facing an uncertain future.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/sep/29/downtown-development-update-whats-rising-whats-not/

Sounds like the American Lions plan is dead, the city doesn't have money in the CIP for the second phase of Riverfront Park, and any centerpiece sculpture at the site will need to privately funded.

Another well executed plan.

Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now? We all knew Curry and Hughes were lying their butts off years ago. Said then that a "regular" urban park that size would be over $50 million without the promised bells and whistles. American Lions was never a viable project. People hate hearing reality but there's a reason no skyscraper has been built in the Northbank in 33 years. At this point, pad that parcel as a green space that would be a part of the park (not the vacant lot it is right now) and beg Sleiman (lol) to bring back some of the viable mixed use components of the plan developed during the Brown administration. Your real life model to follow is Columbus Commons in Downtown Columbus, OH.

The One Riverside project being delayed due to the City's inability to execute on their piece of the project as promised is another interesting tidbit. It sounds like that one might have the potential to cost the city more if the developer incurs overruns due to the city's failure to perform?

Re: American Lions, is the Deegan administration's opposition to funding the construction loan being driven by the lack of confidence in the estimated construction cost? It makes sense that the CIP would not include phase 2 funding if the administration doesn't believe the tower development will happen as planned. This project could still happen in some form, though: I liked the idea of a renderings graveyard for the signature art piece. How many "Landings" can you install on the civic steps?

Interesting to see the Daily Review doing an update.

The Four Seasons seems to be happening which is good. Hopefully it'll help lay out some commitment so that the final stadium deal isn't too bad.

The Trio seems to be suffering as a project, and it doesn't strike me as especially feasible at this point. Council has to decide if they want to go ahead for the sake of getting the building done or let it get pushed to an indeterminate future.

Johnson Commons and the park seem to be going alright. It'll always be a shame that they didn't win over Vestcor in the beginning and avoid the delay but what's done is done, it's happening.

Doro is closing in on completion, shame it couldn't go anywhere else but again, what's done is done.

Curious what delays FDOT caused with McCoys Creek that have affected One Riverside, and why.

The Southbank project doesn't give me much confidence. A $15 million gap seems pretty concerning. Not to mention the park construction next to it has been effectively dormant.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now? We all knew Curry and Hughes were lying their butts off years ago. Said then that a "regular" urban park that size would be over $50 million without the promised bells and whistles. American Lions was never a viable project. People hate hearing reality but there's a reason no skyscraper has been built in the Northbank in 33 years. At this point, pad that parcel as a green space that would be a part of the park (not the vacant lot it is right now) and beg Sleiman (lol) to bring back some of the viable mixed use components of the plan developed during the Brown administration. Your real life model to follow is Columbus Commons in Downtown Columbus, OH.

It sounds to me like altogether it's something in the $70-80 million range now. If I recall correctly the second phase is supposed to cost about the same as the first, with the statue another several million on top of that, but also that doesn't really factor for apparently needing the tower as part of the structure for the park. I would expect that Sleiman's proposal was fully based on the political and economic environment of 2015, and that given the pandemic and inflation and interest rates that have come into play since wouldn't pencil out anymore without a near-equivalent incentive anyway. Not to mention probably just not wanting to stick his head out downtown after what happened to Brown, even with ultimately making money getting out of the Landing.

Quote from: jaxoNOLE on September 29, 2023, 12:29:25 PM
The One Riverside project being delayed due to the City's inability to execute on their piece of the project as promised is another interesting tidbit. It sounds like that one might have the potential to cost the city more if the developer incurs overruns due to the city's failure to perform?

Reason number xxxx why Jacksonville has a bad wrap for big development. You get a big one actually moving forward, and you fumble the bag. Crazy. I'd be salty.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

Would that $50MM include the pedestrian ramp up to the Main Street Bridge? If I remember correctly, the private developer was supposed to build some or all of that structure/embankment.

Not looking too good for the park kinda stupid not to allow the loan and work with the developer because no one lenders banks are going to fund any developer in Jacksonville or other cities like Tampa. there're also having problems with getting materials and financing. Noco area jones project and a few others are struggling a bit too. If we dont help out with lions even though the are financial capable the still need loans and they leave then we are back to the drawing board with bids for that pad and phase two doesn't happen because it also would have to be redone. So a park that may sit for 5 to 7 more years. Deegan wants to fund more for downtown especially green parks but doesn't want to pay for a good chunk of that money for parks like plaza and shipyards. since shipyards and maybe plaza they said that the parks wont be fully covered with stuff for people to do like pickleball and stuff so alot of things not to be fully built out and water it down. Deegan said she wants more parks and infrastructure to help lower costs of future incentive packages but if you are not funding plaza then that would contradict her words of funding parks to help deals later on. So it is better to work with them and get this done asap instead of collapsing this whole project and loan that was part of that deal otherwise we would look again like jackasses to they rest of developers eyes where they may not want to develop downtown seeing that we can't fund projects.

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:25:14 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/

$200 million for a park is a lot of money. However, when we're talking about transformational spaces, they cost a pretty penny. Otherwise, what we're currently investing will make the existing spaces better. But they won't result in the type of quality or economic payoff that most proponents have advocated for. To get there simply cost money and requires a will to invest in the infrastructure. Eventually, we'll get there with these spaces. However, getting there will take a decade plus more, than if we just had stayed the course back in 2014. Even then, we're not promised that the final product will attract more people to this space than a Landing on its last legs did. So it will be important to plan from a holistic perspective moving forward.

Quote from: Skybox111 on September 29, 2023, 05:27:56 PM
Not looking too good for the park kinda stupid not to allow the loan and work with the developer because no one lenders banks are going to fund any developer in Jacksonville or other cities like Tampa. there're also having problems with getting materials and financing. Noco area jones project and a few others are struggling a bit too. If we dont help out with lions even though the are financial capable the still need loans and they leave then we are back to the drawing board with bids for that pad and phase two doesn't happen because it also would have to be redone. So a park that may sit for 5 to 7 more years.

Perhaps there's no market for a 44-story tower in this space, irresponsible to put taxpayer money into a losing proposition and/or there are better things with a higher ROI worth investing public money into at the moment.

QuoteDeegan wants to fund more for downtown especially green parks but doesn't want to pay for a good chunk of that money for parks like plaza and shipyards. since shipyards and maybe plaza they said that the parks wont be fully covered with stuff for people to do like pickleball and stuff so alot of things not to be fully built out and water it down. Deegan said she wants more parks and infrastructure to help lower costs of future incentive packages but if you are not funding plaza then that would contradict her words of funding parks to help deals later on. So it is better to work with them and get this done asap instead of collapsing this whole project and loan that was part of that deal otherwise we would look again like jackasses to they rest of developers eyes where they may not want to develop downtown seeing that we can't fund projects.

I think our reality is, that there's only so much money you can give away. So some prioritization is needed. Jags want one billion, Gateway wants $135 million, Trio wants millions, RCB wants millions, everybody wants public money. Our reality is that we can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. We can't go back and correct the mistakes of the past, but we can learn from other cities on how to develop first tier public spaces. We're going to have to phase the implementation and be really smart and intentional about it.  If we can do that, when the market improves, we'll be in a better position for more market rate infill development.

I'm over any new Riverfront park space. There are ways to implement greenery within private use spaces. It's called covenants & restrictions to deed. Pretty simple. We also have already dedicated like 80% of the Northbank's riverfront space to "parks" when DT is a ghost town. Nobody talks about the upkeep costs of several dozen acres of Riverfront space. Going to be a financial nightmare until DT reaches critical mass to not make these homeless camps.

Again, nobody cares to question why downtown is a pit of money & how we can change that. Gateway is a silver bullet right now... it'd look pretty bleak otherwise.

The maintenance of green space is a big concern of mine. JTA improved sidewalks along Jefferson,  Broad, Bay, Forsyth, etc. about a decade ago and all of those corridors look pretty shabby now. There are weeds growing in the sidewalk cracks, shoddy looking grass, etc. If we can't maintain and landscape our sidewalks on gateway corridors into downtown, I really wonder about out ability to landscape and maintain our parks.

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:25:14 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/

I'm from Sarasota, went to Junior High and High School there, joined the Navy from there and made it a career, and moved back there in 2004 and lived there until March of 2021. I now am back in North Florida living on 4 acres in Suwannee Valley in Suwannee County. I know all of that area well. Used to fish there and play there when I was a kid, and performed in plays in the purple building in the rendering which is Van Wezel Performing Arts Hall, constructed in 1969 I believe, the same year me and my Parents moved to Sarasota. No comparison. Especially within the last 30 years. I just visited Sarasota twice in the last week and it is totally unrecognizable; money, money, money, you can see it in everything around that City. I started my Agency in 2004, a Social Service Agency I still run. I started the Agency from that Park in the rendering, my first clients, displaced, homeless, etc., were from that area and that Park. So much for the destitute and the vagrants as some call them (disrespectful) who hung out and camped in this Park for decades; where will they go. Sarasota is now a town of about 70,000 people (in the incorporated area), but  there's lots of unincorporated areas around Sarasota and I would guess realistically Sarasota is a City of about 100,000 people now. The skyline, though graced with many 100 to 170 foot skyscrapers, believe it or not, IMO, puts Jax to shame; and don't even get me started on density and "things to do" downtown. Comparing Jax and Sarasota is like comparing a shiny, juicy red delicious apply to a withered, wrinkled dried up prune. There's no comparison. It's obvious the City Leaders in "Sara" gets the job done unlike in our City Jax. Yes, money talks, and bulls**t walks, so true; but, you've got to correctly manage and make do with what you've got, and Jax just doesn't seem to know how to do that. This massive park they're building and renovating on the Bayfront, once it's done, will be something to enjoy and behold, this I can tell. 10 years? I'm 67 now, so I might not be around to see it; you guys might. I'm holding up good, maybe I will. I just wish, and pray that Jax would get it together. I'm rooting for Jax so hard, and have been since my youth when I grew up here. But it seems to be the same old same old; nothing gets done. Renderings, renderings, renderings and nothing gets built. Proposals out the "ying yang," but they never leave the paper or plans and materialize into fruition. Well, I'm tired of waiting. While Jax yawns and sleeps, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Sarasota, Fort Lauderdale, St. Petersburg, and even Tallahassee and Gainesville (and other smaller cities), are leaving Jax in the dust. I guess I'll just go along with the fact that Jax will always, even after I am gone, not ever be the City that it could be or wants and yearns to be. I love Jax. Always will. Had fun times here in my youth after joining the Navy. Fun times. I hope something happens before I leave this Earth and report to Beulah Land. That's all. That's enough now.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 06:02:42 PM
The maintenance of green space is a big concern of mine. JTA improved sidewalks along Jefferson,  Broad, Bay, Forsyth, etc. about a decade ago and all of those corridors look pretty shabby now. There are weeds growing in the sidewalk cracks, snappy looking grass, etc. If we can't maintain and landscape our sidewalks on gateway corridors into downtown, I really wonder about out ability to landscape and maintain our parks.

This is true city-wide. Road projects costing tens to hundreds of millions are completed, landscaping put in...and in 3 months it's all completely overgrown. What a difference merely mowing and weed spraying can make in the perception of an area.

Quote from: heights unknown on September 29, 2023, 09:38:16 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:25:14 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/

I'm from Sarasota, went to Junior High and High School there, joined the Navy from there and made it a career, and moved back there in 2004 and lived there until March of 2021. I now am back in North Florida living on 4 acres in Suwannee Valley in Suwannee County. I know all of that area well. Used to fish there and play there when I was a kid, and performed in plays in the purple building in the rendering which is Van Wezel Performing Arts Hall, constructed in 1969 I believe, the same year me and my Parents moved to Sarasota. No comparison. Especially within the last 30 years. I just visited Sarasota twice in the last week and it is totally unrecognizable; money, money, money, you can see it in everything around that City. I started my Agency in 2004, a Social Service Agency I still run. I started the Agency from that Park in the rendering, my first clients, displaced, homeless, etc., were from that area and that Park. So much for the destitute and the vagrants as some call them (disrespectful) who hung out and camped in this Park for decades; where will they go. Sarasota is now a town of about 70,000 people (in the incorporated area), but  there's lots of unincorporated areas around Sarasota and I would guess realistically Sarasota is a City of about 100,000 people now. The skyline, though graced with many 100 to 170 foot skyscrapers, believe it or not, IMO, puts Jax to shame; and don't even get me started on density and "things to do" downtown. Comparing Jax and Sarasota is like comparing a shiny, juicy red delicious apply to a withered, wrinkled dried up prune. There's no comparison. It's obvious the City Leaders in "Sara" gets the job done unlike in our City Jax. Yes, money talks, and bulls**t walks, so true; but, you've got to correctly manage and make do with what you've got, and Jax just doesn't seem to know how to do that. This massive park they're building and renovating on the Bayfront, once it's done, will be something to enjoy and behold, this I can tell. 10 years? I'm 67 now, so I might not be around to see it; you guys might. I'm holding up good, maybe I will. I just wish, and pray that Jax would get it together. I'm rooting for Jax so hard, and have been since my youth when I grew up here. But it seems to be the same old same old; nothing gets done. Renderings, renderings, renderings and nothing gets built. Proposals out the "ying yang," but they never leave the paper or plans and materialize into fruition. Well, I'm tired of waiting. While Jax yawns and sleeps, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Sarasota, Fort Lauderdale, St. Petersburg, and even Tallahassee and Gainesville (and other smaller cities), are leaving Jax in the dust. I guess I'll just go along with the fact that Jax will always, even after I am gone, not ever be the City that it could be or wants and yearns to be. I love Jax. Always will. Had fun times here in my youth after joining the Navy. Fun times. I hope something happens before I leave this Earth and report to Beulah Land. That's all. That's enough now.

I am with you, Heights.  I recently was in Sarasota and was blown away by their skyline and waterfront.  And, the nonprofit "park", Selby Gardens.  I note that all the high rises are well back from the waterfront and separated by US 41 and more, giving a really nice panoramic view of the area.  Almost all their waterfront seemed to be public access. 

To add, even "exclusive" locations like Long Boat Key and Anna Marie Island had long and frequent street-end public accesses to the beaches in the midst of highly developed areas, unlike our beaches.

I am not with others on this thread. I think parks and greenspace are critical components to promoting development.  People today cannot easily connect with the outdoors.  It is a long commute to reach out beyond the suburbs for an opportunity to commune with nature, which is proven to be good for mental health.  Not to mention exercise for your physical health.  Downtown dwellers will greatly value large greenspaces for walking, jogging, bicycling, dog walking, game playing, meditating, accessing the waterfront and more.  Every major city and more that I have visited provides this.

The American Lions Tower, to me, is a nice building but in the wrong spot.  It looks crammed into that spot and would be jarring to look at, IMHO.  And, in support of my above comment, I don't want to see something like that on publicly owned riverfront land.  Build it back one block and it will do fine.  As such, not unhappy they can't move forward presently.

Watching One Riverside rise, as I expressed previously, looks way too close to the river for its height and size.  This should not be repeated with other developments.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 29, 2023, 11:53:23 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on September 29, 2023, 09:38:16 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:25:14 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/

I'm from Sarasota, went to Junior High and High School there, joined the Navy from there and made it a career, and moved back there in 2004 and lived there until March of 2021. I now am back in North Florida living on 4 acres in Suwannee Valley in Suwannee County. I know all of that area well. Used to fish there and play there when I was a kid, and performed in plays in the purple building in the rendering which is Van Wezel Performing Arts Hall, constructed in 1969 I believe, the same year me and my Parents moved to Sarasota. No comparison. Especially within the last 30 years. I just visited Sarasota twice in the last week and it is totally unrecognizable; money, money, money, you can see it in everything around that City. I started my Agency in 2004, a Social Service Agency I still run. I started the Agency from that Park in the rendering, my first clients, displaced, homeless, etc., were from that area and that Park. So much for the destitute and the vagrants as some call them (disrespectful) who hung out and camped in this Park for decades; where will they go. Sarasota is now a town of about 70,000 people (in the incorporated area), but  there's lots of unincorporated areas around Sarasota and I would guess realistically Sarasota is a City of about 100,000 people now. The skyline, though graced with many 100 to 170 foot skyscrapers, believe it or not, IMO, puts Jax to shame; and don't even get me started on density and "things to do" downtown. Comparing Jax and Sarasota is like comparing a shiny, juicy red delicious apply to a withered, wrinkled dried up prune. There's no comparison. It's obvious the City Leaders in "Sara" gets the job done unlike in our City Jax. Yes, money talks, and bulls**t walks, so true; but, you've got to correctly manage and make do with what you've got, and Jax just doesn't seem to know how to do that. This massive park they're building and renovating on the Bayfront, once it's done, will be something to enjoy and behold, this I can tell. 10 years? I'm 67 now, so I might not be around to see it; you guys might. I'm holding up good, maybe I will. I just wish, and pray that Jax would get it together. I'm rooting for Jax so hard, and have been since my youth when I grew up here. But it seems to be the same old same old; nothing gets done. Renderings, renderings, renderings and nothing gets built. Proposals out the "ying yang," but they never leave the paper or plans and materialize into fruition. Well, I'm tired of waiting. While Jax yawns and sleeps, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Sarasota, Fort Lauderdale, St. Petersburg, and even Tallahassee and Gainesville (and other smaller cities), are leaving Jax in the dust. I guess I'll just go along with the fact that Jax will always, even after I am gone, not ever be the City that it could be or wants and yearns to be. I love Jax. Always will. Had fun times here in my youth after joining the Navy. Fun times. I hope something happens before I leave this Earth and report to Beulah Land. That's all. That's enough now.

I am with you, Heights.  I recently was in Sarasota and was blown away by their skyline and waterfront.  And, the nonprofit "park", Selby Gardens.  I note that all the high rises are well back from the waterfront and separated by US 41 and more, giving a really nice panoramic view of the area.  Almost all their waterfront seemed to be public access. 

To add, even "exclusive" locations like Long Boat Key and Anna Marie Island had long and frequent street-end public accesses to the beaches in the midst of highly developed areas, unlike our beaches.

I am not with others on this thread. I think parks and greenspace are critical components to promoting development.  People today cannot easily connect with the outdoors.  It is a long commute to reach out beyond the suburbs for an opportunity to commune with nature, which is proven to be good for mental health.  Not to mention exercise for your physical health.  Downtown dwellers will greatly value large greenspaces for walking, jogging, bicycling, dog walking, game playing, meditating, accessing the waterfront and more.  Every major city and more that I have visited provides this.

The American Lions Tower, to me, is a nice building but in the wrong spot.  It looks crammed into that spot and would be jarring to look at, IMHO.  And, in support of my above comment, I don't want to see something like that on publicly owned riverfront land.  Build it back one block and it will do fine.  As such, not unhappy they can't move forward presently.

Watching One Riverside rise, as I expressed previously, looks way too close to the river for its height and size.  This should not be repeated with other developments.

Yes "Jax," I agree; I am a skyscraper fan; but when you're dealing with urbanesque on the water, they should be pushed back at least a thousand feet from the water (IMHO). I for one hope some way, some how the American Lions building gets built, but I agree also, not in that spot. There's lots of other places, a thousand feet or so from the River where it could go. One block/parcel, whatever that comes to mind is that empty lot, now used as a parking lot, next to the Mariott (Omni) and the Enterprise Center (IMO) and my recommendation; it would go good there complementing the Bank of America. They might have to scale the base down from the flaring out, and maybe even make it taller, but that would be an excellent spot in my opinion. Regarding Sarasota, it is jaw dropping and chain pulling what has happened to that place. We moved there in 1969 and it was a sleepy, quiet city of about 30,000, with an extremely "small town feel" outside of winter, with one or two 120 foot scrapers; now it fries the brain to see at least 30 or so 100 to 200 feet mid rise scrapers with packed in your gahunna density and 24/7 things to do, buzz, outside cafes, and entertainment and shopping going on downtown, even on saturdays (and sundays shame on them). But, what can Jax do? There's nothing really I can say or recommend for Jax.

^ Heights, glad to have your agreement  8).

This picture below says it all.  The wood-stick construction is much higher since it was taken, topping out at the top of the garage and stairwells.  You can see just how close the building is to the water.  30 or 40 foot setbacks, as I am guessing, at most, from the picture, are nothing in this scale of construction.  Just a shame this City prostitutes' itself to the whims of every developer that drops by.  And, to think we also have the taxpayers contributing to these ugly projects. 

And, virtually no setback from the side property lines to allow for a substantive vegetative buffer.

To add, I wonder if the City factors in airflows created by these structures.  A strong south wind hitting the face of this structure could have some impacts on the riverwalk in front.  Next door, Haskell at least had the good sense to terrace their building back from the riverfront. Maybe they know something about better design.  Hello?!... Shouldn't the City take a lesson from that?

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2023/09/27/One_Riverside_September_r800x500.jpg?6282b40b45fc69feef75f6b5ff7b0f3040c2c9b4)

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 30, 2023, 01:01:03 PM
^ Heights, glad to have your agreement  8).

This picture below says it all.  The wood-stick construction is much higher since it was taken, topping out at the top of the garage and stairwells.  You can see just how close the building is to the water.  30 or 40 foot setbacks, as I am guessing, at most, from the picture, are nothing in this scale of construction.  Just a shame this City prostitutes' itself to the whims of every developer that drops by.  And, to think we also have the taxpayers contributing to these ugly projects. 

And, virtually no setback from the side property lines to allow for a substantive vegetative buffer.

To add, I wonder if the City factors in airflows created by these structures.  A strong south wind hitting the face of this structure could have some impacts on the riverwalk in front.  Next door, Haskell at least had the good sense to terrace their building back from the riverfront. Maybe they know something about better design.  Hello?!... Shouldn't the City take a lesson from that?

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2023/09/27/One_Riverside_September_r800x500.jpg?6282b40b45fc69feef75f6b5ff7b0f3040c2c9b4)

Yes they should learn a lesson from that.......but they won't take notice or listen.

On the other hand...no answer for me right now LOL. We'll see what doesn't happen next for downtown.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 30, 2023, 01:01:03 PM
^ Heights, glad to have your agreement  8).

This picture below says it all.  The wood-stick construction is much higher since it was taken, topping out at the top of the garage and stairwells.  You can see just how close the building is to the water.  30 or 40 foot setbacks, as I am guessing, at most, from the picture, are nothing in this scale of construction.  Just a shame this City prostitutes' itself to the whims of every developer that drops by.(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2023/09/27/One_Riverside_September_r800x500.jpg?6282b40b45fc69feef75f6b5ff7b0f3040c2c9b4)

Eloquently said. Larger setbacks from the river are something Riverfront Parks Now + Scenic Jacksonville has pushed for continuously with little buy in from COJ or your average developer leadership. It's extremely frustrating to visit other cities that do have higher standards for themselves and see the results. Le sigh.

That thing is like a wall now on the Riverwalk.  Might turn out cool, might not.

I walked by it earlier today. I'd like to see what the feel is when the restaurant and outdoor cafe-style seating are in place.

Don't see much of a problem with it being close. Miami towers all right up to waterfront and doesn't really bother many and its still successful with many hotels and restaurants right there with many people walking and jogging plus many don't look at the buildings next to them some do to look up at a tall tower for a wow but majority look at other the other side to see things like anyone walking by our huge wide river will look at the other side of the river at the skyline. A great view from both sides.  With a wide river a tower wouldn't be close to the other side because its far away. Looking from the Southbank in different areas the distance to the northbank can be 1500 to 2000 ft across.

Quote from: Skybox111 on October 01, 2023, 01:16:13 AM
Don't see much of a problem with it being close. Miami towers all right up to waterfront and doesn't really bother many and its still successful with many hotels and restaurants right there with many people walking and jogging plus many don't look at the buildings next to them some do to look up at a tall tower for a wow but majority look at other the other side to see things like anyone walking by our huge wide river will look at the other side of the river at the skyline. A great view from both sides.  With a wide river a tower wouldn't be close to the other side because its far away. Looking from the Southbank in different areas the distance to the northbank can be 1500 to 2000 ft across.

100% agree.. I really don't understand the narrative around the river setbacks being such a necessity. Building close to the water can be done right as well. If we had more demand DT for dining & entertainment, the proximity of structures to the river can be done in a way that would make the riverfront parks look like a mistake. This is also DT land we are talking about, and the idea of implementing mandatory green space setbacks from the river is a little silly to me. Don't we want our DT land to be dense? Why not allow developers to be creative with the green space requirements... after all... if people are doing their jobs right, a plan with a poor green space detail shouldn't be passed.

We have a chicken & egg predicament... we want developers to go above & beyond the minimum requirements, but we also reduce the economic potential of these same sites. There has to be another, less rigid, solution.

https://floridayimby.com/2023/01/site-plans-filed-for-33-acre-mixed-use-waterfront-development-ybor-harbor-in-tampa.html

Using creative means to create connected green space.

Nows that something i would love to see here shame shipyards couldn't be implemented to that degree instead of all park have residential office hotels and restaurants integrated with it.

Just saw an article in the Daily Record that Cinco de Mayo which was at the Landing will be opening in the old Olio space by year end.

That quote about being kicked out of Landing is horrible. So glad, the people behind that type of foolishness are out of city hall. Kudos to this business for overcoming a business killing situation to take another chance on downtown. It's the small businesses like this that should be getting incentives or help for being forced to close over local petty politics.

This is a nice get for Downtown actually. Inexpensive Mexican right by a large hotel and open dinner hours? Perfect.

And yes, let's kick a business out of the Landing so Curry can play God. Super terrific idea there.

^It's a perfect fit for East Bay Street. I wish they would have been open over the last month. Attended two 1,000 person conferences at the Hyatt and people were looking for food options around the hotel.

Great get for downtown.

Hoping that a solid, lunch time and late-night pizza spot follows soon behind it.

Quote from: Jax_Developer on October 01, 2023, 09:17:07 AM
https://floridayimby.com/2023/01/site-plans-filed-for-33-acre-mixed-use-waterfront-development-ybor-harbor-in-tampa.html

I grew up in Central Florida and have a soft spot in my heart for the what's left of the old school working Channel District waterfront that disappearing. Do you know if that shipyard (International Ship Repair & Marine Services) is relocating or closing?

Update

I found the answer:

QuoteFor years, one of the most closely watched plots of land between Ybor City and Tampa's Channel District has been a privately held 25-acre ship repair site at the north end of Port Tampa Bay, directly south of the Lee Roy Selmon Expressway.

The site may finally have a buyer — and it's a familiar one.

Darryl Shaw, the veterinary entrepreneur turned Ybor City real estate investor, has a deal in place to purchase the land occupied by International Ship Repair and Marine Services, a spokesperson said Wednesday.

The three-parcel property would be purchased in two phases over the next five years. The first, encompassing the north and west sides of the ship repair yard in Ybor Channel, could close in late 2023. The second will take a few more years as International Ship Repair looks to relocate its operations, including 300 employees. Terms of the agreement were not disclosed.

QuoteThe land is owned by a corporation controlled by longtime International Ship Repair owner and influential port figure George Lorton, who died in July; the sale is being managed by a trust in his name. A representative from the trust did not return requests for comment Wednesday afternoon.


The hurdles to moving the ship repair business would be significant, said International Ship Repair senior vice president Hugo Ortiz.

"It's not a matter of saying we will relocate," Ortiz said. "Who will pay for the relocation? Who will find a cheap place to move? Also, the Tampa Port Authority needs to be involved. So there are several factors. It's not (possible) to come with this kind of news to say, 'OK, we want to take over.'"

QuoteOrtiz said it was always Lorton's intent to keep the company at Port Tampa Bay, but it would have to work with the port to find enough available berths along a deep enough channel for relocation. If a channel had to be dredged to get that depth, it would require federal approval.

"Those permits take one year, two years, three years," Ortiz said. "Then you talk about the environmental aspects; that can be another challenge. So it's not easy to say, in two, three years, it's going to be done."

QuoteIt's a historic piece of land. International Ship Repair has operated there for some 40 years, acquiring most of the property in 1995 and 2004 for about $15.6 million, according to Hillsborough Records. The eastern side of the property covered in the sale's second phase once housed Tampa Marine, which built many ships during World War II, said Rodney Kite-Powell of the Tampa Bay History Center.

"Not battleships, more ancillary ships like tenders that were still a very important part of the war effort," he said.

The western part of the property along Channelside was once part of Tampa's banana docks, where longshoremen unloaded bananas from ships to be sent by train and truck to other cities, Kite-Powell said. The docks dated back to the late 1920s and became a sort of tourist attraction, with people gathering to watch the hub of activity there.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/business/2022/08/31/darryl-shaw-to-buy-develop-25-acres-between-ybor-city-port-tampa-bay/#:~:text=The%20first%2C%20encompassing%20the%20north,its%20operations%2C%20including%20300%20employees.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 02, 2023, 07:40:49 PM

Quote from: Jax_Developer on October 01, 2023, 09:17:07 AM
https://floridayimby.com/2023/01/site-plans-filed-for-33-acre-mixed-use-waterfront-development-ybor-harbor-in-tampa.html

I grew up in Central Florida and have a soft spot in my heart for the what's left of the old school working Channel District waterfront that disappearing. Do you know if that shipyard (International Ship Repair & Marine Services) is relocating or closing?

Update

I found the answer:

QuoteFor years, one of the most closely watched plots of land between Ybor City and Tampa's Channel District has been a privately held 25-acre ship repair site at the north end of Port Tampa Bay, directly south of the Lee Roy Selmon Expressway.

The site may finally have a buyer — and it's a familiar one.

Darryl Shaw, the veterinary entrepreneur turned Ybor City real estate investor, has a deal in place to purchase the land occupied by International Ship Repair and Marine Services, a spokesperson said Wednesday.

The three-parcel property would be purchased in two phases over the next five years. The first, encompassing the north and west sides of the ship repair yard in Ybor Channel, could close in late 2023. The second will take a few more years as International Ship Repair looks to relocate its operations, including 300 employees. Terms of the agreement were not disclosed.

QuoteThe land is owned by a corporation controlled by longtime International Ship Repair owner and influential port figure George Lorton, who died in July; the sale is being managed by a trust in his name. A representative from the trust did not return requests for comment Wednesday afternoon.


The hurdles to moving the ship repair business would be significant, said International Ship Repair senior vice president Hugo Ortiz.

"It's not a matter of saying we will relocate," Ortiz said. "Who will pay for the relocation? Who will find a cheap place to move? Also, the Tampa Port Authority needs to be involved. So there are several factors. It's not (possible) to come with this kind of news to say, 'OK, we want to take over.'"

QuoteOrtiz said it was always Lorton's intent to keep the company at Port Tampa Bay, but it would have to work with the port to find enough available berths along a deep enough channel for relocation. If a channel had to be dredged to get that depth, it would require federal approval.

"Those permits take one year, two years, three years," Ortiz said. "Then you talk about the environmental aspects; that can be another challenge. So it's not easy to say, in two, three years, it's going to be done."

QuoteIt's a historic piece of land. International Ship Repair has operated there for some 40 years, acquiring most of the property in 1995 and 2004 for about $15.6 million, according to Hillsborough Records. The eastern side of the property covered in the sale's second phase once housed Tampa Marine, which built many ships during World War II, said Rodney Kite-Powell of the Tampa Bay History Center.

"Not battleships, more ancillary ships like tenders that were still a very important part of the war effort," he said.

The western part of the property along Channelside was once part of Tampa's banana docks, where longshoremen unloaded bananas from ships to be sent by train and truck to other cities, Kite-Powell said. The docks dated back to the late 1920s and became a sort of tourist attraction, with people gathering to watch the hub of activity there.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/business/2022/08/31/darryl-shaw-to-buy-develop-25-acres-between-ybor-city-port-tampa-bay/#:~:text=The%20first%2C%20encompassing%20the%20north,its%20operations%2C%20including%20300%20employees.

I personally really like the plan. Great location of course. It would be nice if Jax had more marina-incorporated projects. I'm not entirely sure why we don't other than I guess demand.

It may be decades away from fruition but it looks similar to the early 2000s version of the Shipyards.

Most recent DIA documents reveal that One Riverside has been significantly delayed (likely one year, plus or minus a few months). Phase 1 completion not required until Sept. 2026. Restaurant is included in that timeline.

(https://dia.coj.net/getattachment/41e4242d-c6f6-4ca8-a079-67a040060804/.aspx)

Where is this restaurant by the fountain supposed to be going?

Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2024, 10:25:05 AM
Most recent DIA documents reveal that One Riverside has been significantly delayed (likely one year, plus or minus a few months). Phase 1 completion not required until Sept. 2026. Restaurant is included in that timeline.

(https://dia.coj.net/getattachment/41e4242d-c6f6-4ca8-a079-67a040060804/.aspx)

Does anyone know any specifics about what happened to delay/extend the McCoys Creek Improvement project?

I believe the hold up here with the Whole Foods and restaurant is that McCoys Creek was supposed to be finished in October 2023, but now isn't scheduled to be completed until the end of 2025.

Force majeure delays, as noted in the above, seem to suggest something wildly unexpected happening. Did it?

Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 06, 2024, 02:14:18 PM

Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2024, 10:25:05 AM
Most recent DIA documents reveal that One Riverside has been significantly delayed (likely one year, plus or minus a few months). Phase 1 completion not required until Sept. 2026. Restaurant is included in that timeline.

(https://dia.coj.net/getattachment/41e4242d-c6f6-4ca8-a079-67a040060804/.aspx)

Does anyone know any specifics about what happened to delay/extend the McCoys Creek Improvement project?

I believe the hold up here with the Whole Foods and restaurant is that McCoys Creek was supposed to be finished in October 2023, but now isn't scheduled to be completed until the end of 2025.

Force majeure delays, as noted in the above, seem to suggest something wildly unexpected happening. Did it?

COJ probably happened

Quote from: acme54321 on May 06, 2024, 03:38:46 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 06, 2024, 02:14:18 PM

Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2024, 10:25:05 AM
Most recent DIA documents reveal that One Riverside has been significantly delayed (likely one year, plus or minus a few months). Phase 1 completion not required until Sept. 2026. Restaurant is included in that timeline.

(https://dia.coj.net/getattachment/41e4242d-c6f6-4ca8-a079-67a040060804/.aspx)

Does anyone know any specifics about what happened to delay/extend the McCoys Creek Improvement project?

I believe the hold up here with the Whole Foods and restaurant is that McCoys Creek was supposed to be finished in October 2023, but now isn't scheduled to be completed until the end of 2025.

Force majeure delays, as noted in the above, seem to suggest something wildly unexpected happening. Did it?

COJ probably happened

That's right based on what I was told. The city didn't file in time for their ERP permit, and it held up some of the site work.

The One Riverside restaurant isn't located near the creek. I can't imagine it being held up by creek construction.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2024, 04:18:05 PM
The One Riverside restaurant isn't located near the creek. I can't imagine it being held up by creek construction.

Was the retail (restaurant) permit ever issued? I think it's tied up in the FDEP Permit somehow (proximity to the River? or because of the lack of Phase 2 apartments). The project is so delayed beyond its current capacity, because the site was only confirmed by FDEP 2/26/2024. Meaning... they couldn't pull any permits that had any footprint in any environmental area. Add on the current FDEP/USACOE stuff, it seems more complex than what meets the eye.

The restaurant is built into one of the apartment buildings. The shell of it is almost complete. I can't imagine build out of the restaurant is held up by the creek.

Now the Whole Foods doesn't have a lot of activity yet.

That part (Whole Foods) is held up by the reconstruction of the creek.

I might be wrong, but I believe I heard that Whole Foods can't break ground because of delays on the city's end with the creek project (as others noted above), and that the restaurant isn't dependent on the creek project, but is instead dependent on the projected foot traffic from the delayed retail component.

That makes sense. Although, even the Phase 1 apartments seemed delayed (intentionally or not, IDK).

Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2024, 04:18:05 PM
The One Riverside restaurant isn't located near the creek. I can't imagine it being held up by creek construction.

The restaurant may be getting a redesign.  I heard that they designed the space without consulting a restaurateur and that it's pretty unusable from a service perspective. 

The creek and section relying on that work — the retail — is what's delayed. That was connected to a permitting issue with FDOT, which has obviously been resolved as the work has been progressing. There's no delay on the rest of it including the residential as that didn't rely on moving the creek.

Will TheJaxsonMag post another downtown/urban development/construction update anytime soon? I would love to see another, it's such a great concise way to see progress downtown.

Yes! We're long overdue. Plan to get one up before the end of the month.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 09, 2024, 09:26:41 AM
Yes! We're long overdue. Plan to get one up before the end of the month.

Wooo! Great!

^I noticed last week that Jersey Mike's is opening up shop in Brooklyn.

Next to Vale.

Jacksonville Coffee Company (which has a few locations scattered around Jax) is apparently opening near Bay & Main in the next month or two.

-

Per the T-U, the DIA really wants to put their muscle into Laura Street, which is awesome.

Sounds like Snyder Memorial will be getting around $4 million in investment (a FANTASTIC idea).

Sounds like the DIA is going to take responsibility for funding a good portion ($12 million) of any completion grant Gateway Jax would need to make their tower on the Landing private development pad work (also fantastic, given the current state of the general fund, and the pushback that vital project would probably get if those dollars were coming out of the city budget).

The one thing I was bummed to hear was that the $1 million set aside for the riverfront restaurant at Riverfront Plaza was moved into Snyder, and that project is on the back burner as the result of pushback from the Council about building and operating the restaurant. Not the end of the world if the Gateway Jax project happens, but really believe that you need as much activation as possible within the park to make it a draw, and the restaurant would have been a big piece of making the park a vibrant and safe space after dark.

Bill, any idea if the same pause in plans applies to the proposed Friendship Fountain restaurant as well?

--

Anyone know what's going on with the Related project on the Southbank? I believe I heard that, if it happens, the completion grant would be paid s they go in chunks, versus as a lump sum at the end. Felt like a very different request than we typically see.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 16, 2025, 10:16:31 AM
Anyone know what's going on with the Related project on the Southbank? I believe I heard that, if it happens, the completion grant would be paid s they go in chunks, versus as a lump sum at the end. Felt like a very different request than we typically see.

The agrement said that they had to be done with final design by 5/30/25.  I think the expectation was a start in 26.  I think the bulkhead work has wrapped up and that had to be completed first.

Quote from: acme54321 on April 16, 2025, 11:54:06 AM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 16, 2025, 10:16:31 AM
Anyone know what's going on with the Related project on the Southbank? I believe I heard that, if it happens, the completion grant would be paid s they go in chunks, versus as a lump sum at the end. Felt like a very different request than we typically see.

The agrement said that they had to be done with final design by 5/30/25.  I think the expectation was a start in 26.  I think the bulkhead work has wrapped up and that had to be completed first.

Thanks for the info!

Quote from: Skybox111 on September 29, 2023, 05:27:56 PM
Not looking too good for the park kinda stupid not to allow the loan and work with the developer because no one lenders banks are going to fund any developer in Jacksonville or other cities like Tampa. there're also having problems with getting materials and financing. Noco area jones project and a few others are struggling a bit too. If we dont help out with lions even though the are financial capable the still need loans and they leave then we are back to the drawing board with bids for that pad and phase two doesn't happen because it also would have to be redone. So a park that may sit for 5 to 7 more years. Deegan wants to fund more for downtown especially green parks but doesn't want to pay for a good chunk of that money for parks like plaza and shipyards. since shipyards and maybe plaza they said that the parks wont be fully covered with stuff for people to do like pickleball and stuff so alot of things not to be fully built out and water it down. Deegan said she wants more parks and infrastructure to help lower costs of future incentive packages but if you are not funding plaza then that would contradict her words of funding parks to help deals later on. So it is better to work with them and get this done asap instead of collapsing this whole project and loan that was part of that deal otherwise we would look again like jackasses to they rest of developers eyes where they may not want to develop downtown seeing that we can't fund projects.

Jackassville?

Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 16, 2025, 10:16:31 AM
Jacksonville Coffee Company (which has a few locations scattered around Jax) is apparently opening near Bay & Main in the next month or two.

-

Per the T-U, the DIA really wants to put their muscle into Laura Street, which is awesome.

Sounds like Snyder Memorial will be getting around $4 million in investment (a FANTASTIC idea).

Sounds like the DIA is going to take responsibility for funding a good portion ($12 million) of any completion grant Gateway Jax would need to make their tower on the Landing private development pad work (also fantastic, given the current state of the general fund, and the pushback that vital project would probably get if those dollars were coming out of the city budget).

The one thing I was bummed to hear was that the $1 million set aside for the riverfront restaurant at Riverfront Plaza was moved into Snyder, and that project is on the back burner as the result of pushback from the Council about building and operating the restaurant. Not the end of the world if the Gateway Jax project happens, but really believe that you need as much activation as possible within the park to make it a draw, and the restaurant would have been a big piece of making the park a vibrant and safe space after dark.

Bill, any idea if the same pause in plans applies to the proposed Friendship Fountain restaurant as well?

--

Anyone know what's going on with the Related project on the Southbank? I believe I heard that, if it happens, the completion grant would be paid s they go in chunks, versus as a lump sum at the end. Felt like a very different request than we typically see.

Southbank still ago. It won't be affected by what's happening with the Landing, which is down to all the moving parts in that deal. Hopefully, the land swap gets through Council and the Landing restaurant can get moving again before too long. If Council decides to do a purchase instead of a land swap, it'll delay things more (and require us to spend millions from the reserves), but either way the hope is to get back to it as soon as feasible.

Quote from: Tacachale on April 17, 2025, 09:24:31 AM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 16, 2025, 10:16:31 AM
Jacksonville Coffee Company (which has a few locations scattered around Jax) is apparently opening near Bay & Main in the next month or two.

-

Per the T-U, the DIA really wants to put their muscle into Laura Street, which is awesome.

Sounds like Snyder Memorial will be getting around $4 million in investment (a FANTASTIC idea).

Sounds like the DIA is going to take responsibility for funding a good portion ($12 million) of any completion grant Gateway Jax would need to make their tower on the Landing private development pad work (also fantastic, given the current state of the general fund, and the pushback that vital project would probably get if those dollars were coming out of the city budget).

The one thing I was bummed to hear was that the $1 million set aside for the riverfront restaurant at Riverfront Plaza was moved into Snyder, and that project is on the back burner as the result of pushback from the Council about building and operating the restaurant. Not the end of the world if the Gateway Jax project happens, but really believe that you need as much activation as possible within the park to make it a draw, and the restaurant would have been a big piece of making the park a vibrant and safe space after dark.

Bill, any idea if the same pause in plans applies to the proposed Friendship Fountain restaurant as well?

--

Anyone know what's going on with the Related project on the Southbank? I believe I heard that, if it happens, the completion grant would be paid s they go in chunks, versus as a lump sum at the end. Felt like a very different request than we typically see.

Southbank still ago. It won't be affected by what's happening with the Landing, which is down to all the moving parts in that deal. Hopefully, the land swap gets through Council and the Landing restaurant can get moving again before too long. If Council decides to do a purchase instead of a land swap, it'll delay things more (and require us to spend millions from the reserves), but either way the hope is to get back to it as soon as feasible.

Great to hear, thanks Bill!

I am praying that this land swap goes through.

I love the recent land disposition for the Cathedral District affordable housing project, and executing a swap for Riverfront Plaza at $0 expense to the general fund over the next 2-3 years feels like an absolute no-brainer.

On Salem's side, you've got:

1. Paying $6 million out of our cash-strapped general fund to try to force downtown's best private partner out of a property they purchased fair and square (ironically, this is the exact same thing we did to Toney Sleiman, and look how well that one turned out).
2. Saying no to a proven, willing developer with a stake in the game, while kicking the can on private development at Riverfront Plaza years down the road, after the first RFP failed to bear any realistic fruit
3. Causing needless, potentially risky delays to UF's plans to launch a graduate campus, during a time of much economic uncertainty.

On the DIA/Gateway/Mayor's side, you've got:

1. A plan to activate both UF and Riverfront Plaza simultaneously, with $0 short-term hit to the general fund.
2. The ability to hit play NOW on UF, versus waiting to see what happens with government funding and the economy.
3. A reputable developer with a fantastic track record and projects underway elsewhere downtown, eager and ready to tackle private development at the Landing, and willing to give the private development pad back at cost if they don't turn dirt in a reasonable amount of time.
4. A hard cap on cash incentives ($20 million, which is significantly lower than the American Lions project that fell apart).
5. An identified funding source for the majority of the incentives (at least $12 million from the DIA).
6. A built-in source of revenue for upkeep, programming, and improvements at the park by way of fees assessed at the private development (I haven't once heard Ron Salem mention how much it's going to cost to publicly maintain the park vs. baking in fees for hotel guests and/or residential tenants).

Could think of nothing more arrogant and foolish than deciding that the best course of action is stealing $6 million from the general fund to tell downtown's premier development partner "Naw, we got this, but we'll take your property," versus paying $0 to give them a risk-free shot and jump start courses at UF.

Salem should be chased out of town if he gets his way with this one. It's putting his own political interests ahead of the city's.

Where does the talk of a second land swap for John Rood and Vestcor fit into all of this? Whatever direction is taken with Gateway should also set the precedence for the Vestcor parcel behind the terminal.

My main issue with the land swap is I don't think any such buildings should be built on the Landing land.  It should all be public greenspace with amenities appropriate for it.  Putting up incentives for Gateway to build on it is salt in the wound for me.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 17, 2025, 11:37:47 AM
My main issue with the land swap is I don't think any such buildings should be built on the Landing land.  It should all be public greenspace with amenities appropriate for it.  Putting up incentives for Gateway to build on it is salt in the wound for me.

With all due respect, that ship appears to have sailed some time ago. The park's design (especially factoring the need to raise the ground up to meet the bridge level, and the amenities planned for that side of the park) is built around including the mixed use element, and the expectation of buildings on the north side has been in the cards since the beginning with Curry's drawing. Throwing everything out to come up with a new design (and still needing to address the JEA line anyway) at full cost to taxpayers doesn't really seem worth the benefit of the possible slight addition of extra space next to the bridge. It's not like the Gateway proposal is completely devoid of green space either:

(https://www.jacksonville.com/gcdn/authoring/authoring-images/2025/02/27/NFTU/80727858007-gateway-jax-riverfront-plaza-rendering.png?crop=882,497,x0,y0)

Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2025, 11:02:47 AM
Where does the talk of a second land swap for John Rood and Vestcor fit into all of this? Whatever direction is taken with Gateway should also set the precedence for the Vestcor parcel behind the terminal.

It doesn't strike me as ideal to be spending tons of money on just land as opposed to that money going to actually incentivize construction instead of land banking.

I believe the swap would be for two development pads....east and west of the Main Street Bridge. I'm not opposed to a land swap but can see how someone else who wants the land or a deal would be against it.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2025, 04:23:39 PM
I believe the swap would be for two development pads....east and west of the Main Street Bridge. I'm not opposed to a land swap but can see how someone else who wants the land or a deal would be against it.

Totally see how other developers could be against it, but still seems like a reasonably fair proposal to me.

I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that the East development pad would almost be treated like an incentive/completion grant for the West pad, versus an outright gift.

From my understanding:

1) Once development of the West pad is complete, Gateway would have an exclusive option to acquire the East pad at market or reduced rate. The option would have an expiration date, and if the pad wasn't developed within five years, they'd lose it.

2) What is also interesting to me is that, in the agreement, Gateway would assume the costs of demolition for the Main Street Bridge ramps going over the East property.

A few other notes:

- Gateway estimates that room taxes and HOA fees rendered for the tower could pump $300,000 a year into a programming and maintenance fund for Riverfront Plaza park. Assuming that NOT choosing Gateway Jax pushes the project back five years, which feels like it might even be conservative given our track record with riverfront RFPs, that's $1.5 million in cost savings alone right there.

- Further, I'd LOVE for someone to do an economic impact study laying out the cost of building out Phase 2 of Riverfront Plaza & the private development simultaneously vs. building out Phase 2 of the park, and then closing the east end of the park for two years for construction of the private development.

I drove past Pearl Street earlier today. They appear to be on the second floor of that one now! I'm confident Gateway would get both of those parcels done. Obviously, there's some haters out there. But whatever, let's get this stuff done.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 17, 2025, 09:25:54 PM
1) Once development of the West pad is complete, Gateway would have an exclusive option to acquire the East pad at market or reduced rate. The option would have an expiration date, and if the pad wasn't developed within five years, they'd lose it.

2) What is also interesting to me is that, in the agreement, Gateway would assume the costs of demolition for the Main Street Bridge ramps going over the East property.

I assume the use of the plural "ramps" is a typo, and only the ramp toward Newnan Street will be removed when the East Parcel is developed. I can't see the Ocean Street ramp being removed, as that would leave nowhere for northbound traffic to go. FDOT does not have the reconfiguration of Main Street to 2-way in their budget.

Will development of the East parking lot (between the Main Street Bridge and the Hyatt) be part of Phase 2 of the Riverfront Plaza project? The potential of offering Parcel 2 to Gateway as an incentive for completion of Parcel 1 implies to me that it will not be simultaneous with developing the Plaza west of the bridge. If so, will it continue to be a parking lot, or will it be a staging area for work to the west? And that means all access to the parking lot will be via Coastline Drive.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2025, 11:10:15 PM
I drove past Pearl Street earlier today. They appear to be on the second floor of that one now! I'm confident Gateway would get both of those parcels done. Obviously, there's some haters out there. But whatever, let's get this stuff done.

You wouldn't be talking about someone whose last name begins with the letter "S" would you?

The second building in Pearl Square is set to break ground this month

QuoteGroundbreaking is scheduled for the second project in the Gateway Jax development in Downtown Jacksonville.

The Gateway Jax partnership announced May 15 that work would begin May 29 on 425 Beaver Street, a mixed-use building that will include 286 multifamily units, nearly 20,000 square feet of retail space and a parking garage.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2025/may/15/groundbreaking-for-second-gateway-jax-project-set-for-may-29/

Wow groundbreaking was supposed to happen back in April. I guess uf campus is moving slow too

The UF logo could go up as soon as this year on an existing office building on West Bay Street that would be the starting point for the campus. The construction of new campus buildings would have its first grand opening by 2030 or 2031, a second building would open by 2035 and other work does not have any specific dates.

The city would give a 2.36 acre parcel and a 1.22 acre parcel to UF this year for the buildings.
After getting the property, UF would have 24 to 30 months to start construction on the larger parcel and another three years to finish it, according to a memo by Downtown Investment Authority CEO Lori Boyer summarizing the agreement. That would put the grand opening of that building in 2030 or 2031.
UF would have up to seven years to begin construction on the second parcel and would have to finish that building by 2035.

I wouldn't get overly concerned about a groundbreaking being delayed a month...

Yeah. They are actually moving pretty quick. The Trio would have been done a decade ago if it moved at the same speed.

Maybe someone should talk Moll/Gateway into taking on the Trio? But he's got so much on his plate right now, but, it appears that Moll/Gateway can more than walk and chew gum. I applaud and am proud of what Moll/Gateway are doing at this juncture (Pearl Street Square); now, they also need to work on the pad on the old Landing site (I hope they come up with something more appealing and taller), and that smaller piece of land to the east of the Landing site. We'll see what happens. But...I am overly pleased and proud of Moll/Gateway.

I'd imagine if the city is successful in foreclosing on the Trio and auctioning it off that we would see a bid from Gateway Jax. It's right across the street from Gateway's offices and JWB's future HQ and they seem focused on helping the DIA activate Laura Street

Quote from: Zac T on May 19, 2025, 11:14:24 PM
I'd imagine if the city is successful in foreclosing on the Trio and auctioning it off that we would see a bid from Gateway Jax. It's right across the street from Gateway's offices and JWB's future HQ and they seem focused on helping the DIA activate Laura Street

Wow...that's good to know and hear, and, I hope THAT'S what happens if the Trio is foreclosed on by the City. We shall see, "Que sera, sera."

Laura Street Trio, if it had opened in literally 2021 as initially planned, and then 2024 as then planned...would have been such an incredible gem to have open alongside the new landing park, possible gateway tower, friendship fountain park, etc.

City leaders don't have to make every little decision well, but they need to make ALL the big decisions well. They made some bad big decisions in the past 10 years with that property.

Can go back even further. If we had worked with Sleiman on the last Landing renovation plan, it would have been finished almost a decade ago. We'd have significantly higher ped foot traffic in the urban core by now and all the public money spent on the Riverfront Plaza park under construction could have been spent elsewhere, over the last decade, leveraging a lot more than what we see today. That one was a generational setback. We'll overcome it but the process to overcome will be longer than 10 years.

I could make a similar argument for City Hall Annex (demolished), and the Hyatt/convention center talk. Poor decisions made all around on each of these public sites years ago that will take additional years and public money to work themselves out. At this point, we can't get back the past, but we can learn from our mistakes and not make the same ones again.

Despite the setbacks, I do feel we are taking "3 steps forward, 2 steps back" or some similar ratio lol. I still feel that the energy is different, the projects with shovels in the ground ARE there, and thank goodness for Gateway Jax, who has the potential to near single-handedly be the spark that drives in-fill development from the river to Springfield downtown.

Also very grateful for VyStar, and despite the controversy...Khan and his companies. There's a few big players that are doing almost everything. Without them, we would be still at square one.

I have a 2 and a 4 year old. We visited Friendship Fountain when the new playground opened, and it just became clear to me how wonderful of an asset this is. All we have to do is follow through with botanical gardens, the rooftop bar/restaurant, the bathrooms, and the Related Tower...and you'll be in really great shape. If only it was combined with the MOSH renovation, which could have already been done!

Looking towards the stadium, the ballpark renovations were great and are already finished. That in tandem with the Zombie DORO apartments, Shipyards West Park, MOSH, Four Seasons, Met Park, and New Stadium is a monumental amount of great things happening on that half of downtown.

I personally do not share the urgency to move the jail. I just do not feel like it is actually a factor on people not going downtown. It will cost so much to move and build a new one. Would you rather spend $1 billion replacing a functional jail to a better location, or spend $1 billion on incentivizing a dozen other complimentary projects? Seems like a no brainer to me.

Lastly, the Emerald Trail and it's connections are transformative and game changing and we HAVE to finish them, even if it means playing hardball with JTA, who have been given so much leeway to go down weird R&D paths that have yet to return anything on their investment.

UF Campus too. Gotta tie that in with new train station and bringing Brightline and Amtrak DOWNTOWN.

Quote from: Zac T on May 19, 2025, 11:14:24 PM
I'd imagine if the city is successful in foreclosing on the Trio and auctioning it off that we would see a bid from Gateway Jax. It's right across the street from Gateway's offices and JWB's future HQ and they seem focused on helping the DIA activate Laura Street

I believe there are other interested parties with credibility, as well.

Quote from: fsu813 on May 24, 2025, 08:28:04 PM

Quote from: Zac T on May 19, 2025, 11:14:24 PM
I'd imagine if the city is successful in foreclosing on the Trio and auctioning it off that we would see a bid from Gateway Jax. It's right across the street from Gateway's offices and JWB's future HQ and they seem focused on helping the DIA activate Laura Street

I believe there are other interested parties with credibility, as well.

There'll be a good amount of serious interest, absolutely. The current ownership is 100% of the problem.

Quote from: Jankelope on May 23, 2025, 01:42:43 PM
Despite the setbacks, I do feel we are taking "3 steps forward, 2 steps back" or some similar ratio lol. I still feel that the energy is different, the projects with shovels in the ground ARE there, and thank goodness for Gateway Jax, who has the potential to near single-handedly be the spark that drives in-fill development from the river to Springfield downtown.

Also very grateful for VyStar, and despite the controversy...Khan and his companies. There's a few big players that are doing almost everything. Without them, we would be still at square one.

I have a 2 and a 4 year old. We visited Friendship Fountain when the new playground opened, and it just became clear to me how wonderful of an asset this is. All we have to do is follow through with botanical gardens, the rooftop bar/restaurant, the bathrooms, and the Related Tower...and you'll be in really great shape. If only it was combined with the MOSH renovation, which could have already been done!

Looking towards the stadium, the ballpark renovations were great and are already finished. That in tandem with the Zombie DORO apartments, Shipyards West Park, MOSH, Four Seasons, Met Park, and New Stadium is a monumental amount of great things happening on that half of downtown.

I personally do not share the urgency to move the jail. I just do not feel like it is actually a factor on people not going downtown. It will cost so much to move and build a new one. Would you rather spend $1 billion replacing a functional jail to a better location, or spend $1 billion on incentivizing a dozen other complimentary projects? Seems like a no brainer to me.

Lastly, the Emerald Trail and it's connections are transformative and game changing and we HAVE to finish them, even if it means playing hardball with JTA, who have been given so much leeway to go down weird R&D paths that have yet to return anything on their investment.

UF Campus too. Gotta tie that in with new train station and bringing Brightline and Amtrak DOWNTOWN.

One thing that's been great about working in the current mayor's administration is seeing how much just changes in perspective and focus can have huge results. Seeing things through now from how they were when we were writing about the various mistakes and hurdles a few years ago is like night and day. There is much more to be done, but it's a great reminder that when we simple commit to doing and finishing key things, the results are palpable. Just shows the truth that none of this stuff is rocket science, it just takes the right people and the right vision.

^ Can you get the mayor to change her opinion on U2C?  That would add to the transformation legacy she is building  8).

Riverfront parks now is asking to make tower parcel green space or low rise commercial on riverfront plaza. so now they will advocate all riverfront to be just park and no high rises that will help populate the area with people utilizing the park no office hotel residential commercial retail just a type of restaurant that many probably won't care about and some trees here and there and stupid art.  wow as if we don't have trees everywhere and parks in this city surrounded by national parks and homes filled with so much dense canopy and grass plants and shrubs. People can just stay where they are and enjoy the peace. No taxpayer is going to want to drive all the way downtown to see some park that is filled with trees unlike other major cities our city is mostly suburbs which contains more nature. And who is going to fund those parks like gateway said the hotel will add surcharge to help fund maintenance for the park. East bay street from berkman all the way to the stadium not really anything there and intuition ale is leaving so dead zone. Also if they add any food there in the parks probably not appealing to many and doubt mosh will have actual food there.

Quote from: Skybox111 on May 28, 2025, 07:59:25 PM
Riverfront parks now is asking to make tower parcel green space or low rise commercial on riverfront plaza. so now they will advocate all riverfront to be just park and no high rises that will help populate the area with people utilizing the park no office hotel residential commercial retail just a type of restaurant that many probably won't care about and some trees here and there and stupid art.  wow as if we don't have trees everywhere and parks in this city surrounded by national parks and homes filled with so much dense canopy and grass plants and shrubs. People can just stay where they are and enjoy the peace. No taxpayer is going to want to drive all the way downtown to see some park that is filled with trees unlike other major cities our city is mostly suburbs which contains more nature. And who is going to fund those parks like gateway said the hotel will add surcharge to help fund maintenance for the park. East bay street from berkman all the way to the stadium not really anything there and intuition ale is leaving so dead zone. Also if they add any food there in the parks probably not appealing to many and doubt mosh will have actual food there.

There isn't a national park anywhere near here. 

Quote from: Skybox111 on May 28, 2025, 07:59:25 PM
Riverfront parks now is asking to make tower parcel green space or low rise commercial on riverfront plaza. so now they will advocate all riverfront to be just park and no high rises that will help populate the area with people utilizing the park no office hotel residential commercial retail just a type of restaurant that many probably won't care about and some trees here and there and stupid art.  wow as if we don't have trees everywhere and parks in this city surrounded by national parks and homes filled with so much dense canopy and grass plants and shrubs. People can just stay where they are and enjoy the peace. No taxpayer is going to want to drive all the way downtown to see some park that is filled with trees unlike other major cities our city is mostly suburbs which contains more nature. And who is going to fund those parks like gateway said the hotel will add surcharge to help fund maintenance for the park. East bay street from berkman all the way to the stadium not really anything there and intuition ale is leaving so dead zone. Also if they add any food there in the parks probably not appealing to many and doubt mosh will have actual food there.

Hurray for Riverfront Parks!  I have been supporting this approach consistently. This is not about just bringing in people from the burbs to Downtown.  It is about attracting residents and tourists to Downtown.  Just like suburbanites want parks and green spaces, they are necessary to grow Downtown (even Nocatee, Wildlight and other mega-developers voluntarily provide these spaces, knowing the value they create). 

These residents and tourists will provide the vibrancy and the increased demand for Downtown will raise property values and the associated tax base to allow dollars to maintain the parks and more. 

Money for parks is not an issue, it is that our elected officials drain available funds for stupid pet projects, incentives for projects by their developer campaign donors, or by grandstanding to "reduce taxes" so they can get re-elected (just see their fear of raising the garbage tax for over a decade costing the City tens of millions).

Putting aside land for parks needs to be done before the demand is created or otherwise the land becomes unattainable, either due to cost or due to being diverted for other uses.  It takes vision and planning, not looking at what is today, but would could be tomorrow and for generations to come.

As I have stated before, most any city in the world would love to have the opportunities for public space along our riverfront that our City is, perversely, paying developers to take off our hands.  Ass backwards!

Instead of "investing" in developer incentives, plow those dollars back into infrastructure, including parks, and the developers will come begging to take advantage, no incentives necessary.  Jax has had it upside down for decades and will not move forward until it changes its tack.

Meant state parks but we do have national parks here fort Caroline national memorial and castillo de san marcos also timucuan preserve

Absolutely classic Jacksonville.

Step 1 - Spend years, and millions of dollars, RFPing Riverfront Plaza as a park, supported by integrated private development on a fraction of the northeastern portion of the park. Bring in a world class design firm to build a park around the idea of having a private development pad.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NFMkd5GT/Screen-Shot-2025-05-28-at-11-03-58-PM.png)

Step 2 - Plan park construction in two phases, with private development happening alongside Phase 2. Which again, occupies very little of the actual property.

(https://i.postimg.cc/63Hd4tVQ/f1a09d65-d5d4-401d-85c2-b449fbf57ebc-1920x1080.jpg)

Step 3 - After the first RFP for private development bears no fruit, the developer of Tampa's transformational Water Street falls into Jacksonville's lap, helps recruit UF, and launches the first vertical construction in the CBD in roughly 250 years as part of a billion dollar development. He owns a key piece of property necessary to launch a $500 million UF graduate campus that will revitalize LaVilla and transform the Prime Osborne, has a good relationship with the DIA, and works in good faith to come up with a win-win deal for Gateway and the city.

Step 4 - He works with the DIA and says, "Hey, you can have my property for UF, and we'll activate the northeast corner of the new park with hotel, residential, and retail. We won't ask for a penny more than $20 million in completion grants (below market rate for Jax these days), we'll work with you to phase construction alongside Phase 2 of the park, we'll build in a mechanism that will pump $700k in upkeep and programming into the park each year, and if it doesn't work out, no hard feelings, you can have the land back, and we'll give you the Interline building at a discount."

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wzh0MCSw/80727858007-gateway-jax-riverfront-plaza-rendering-png.webp)

Step 5 - We're handed the easiest, biggest no-brainer of the last 20 years. Jacksonville wins, getting the Interline building for 0 dollars and locking in UF during a time of economic uncertainty and leadership change at UF. We avoid another lengthy RFP, partnering with a proven, vested developer that has offered guaranteed timelines and incentive caps. We fulfill our end of the CBA with the Jags by delivering Riverfront Plaza on time. We get a healthy annual endowment to maintain Riverfront Plaza. And we get an active use, taking up very little space at the park, that provides restaurants, retail, and a sky deck, while ensuring enough 24/7 pedestrian density at the park to prevent it from becoming yet another homeless camp.

An absolute, slam dunk for the city, that checks ten boxes at once.

And what do we do?

Step 6 - We try to snag defeat from the jaws of victory once again by having every lunatic with some depressing axe to grind come out of the woodwork and act like they're smarter than the DIA and the only proven outside developer we have investing in Downtown Jax at the moment. Actively trying to kill the land swap, and if they're not careful, sour relationships with Gateway and UF as well.

The VERY LAST THING we need is dead greenspace surrounded by unactivated, M-F office towers. It's a recipe for disaster. Not sure if anyone remembers, but Riverfront Plaza was passive greenspace for a few years after the Landing was demolished. A few random events aside, you know who used it during the week and on weekends? A half dozen office workers kicking a soccer ball, and about 300 fentanyl addicts. You know who's using the greenspace at Ford on Bay? No one. Metro Park died because it was an island with no amenities. The most successful urban park in our city's history - Memorial Park in Riverside - only works because it is bordered on all sides by active uses.

We need to start taking advantage of these layups when they fall in our laps instead of having 50 special interests always wanting to slow things down. Or conduct another study. Or lobby to have yet another parcel in Downtown Jacksonville remain undeveloped.

There simply aren't tens of thousands of people in Jacksonville desperate to enjoy 100 acres of greenspace on the river just because they exist. We need to give them additional reasons to come, play, and stay on the river.

But, by all means, let's table everything, tell Gateway no, figure out UF later, delay Phase 2 of Riverfront Plaza for YEARS while we figure out a Plan B, piss off the Jags, jeopardize the CBA, pay for park maintenance from the general fund, and hand an empty Riverfront Plaza over to the meth heads to practice their murders, just so Ron Salem can run for Mayor on a platform of saving $1 million on a land deal (depending on which of the 40 required appraisals you use) and just so Riverfront Parks Now can prevent that awkward 10% of the park in the corner from becoming something that people actually want to use.

Self-defeating madness all around.

Here is the reasoning offered by the counterpointers...

QuoteFormer DIA chair, pro-parks group come out against Riverfront Plaza land swap
Jim Citrano Jr. calls for completion of an "optimal use study" for the site, while Riverfront Parks Now suggests a new option.

....Both Citrano and Riverfront Parks Now support the outright purchase option.

Concerns about cost

Citrano, who served on the DIA board from March 2020 through January 2025, said the Plaza redevelopment parcel poses challenges for builders.

In a May 27 email to Council members, DIA CEO Lori Boyer, current DIA board Chair Patrick Krechowski and others, he questions whether Gateway Jax's proposed tower could be built with $20 million in completion grants, the amount at which those incentives would be capped under city legislation.

Citrano said he believes there is "considerable risk that the final cost to taxpayers could exceed this figure substantially" due to the complexities of developing on the site.

Among those, he said the property offers limited size relative to the conceptual project's scale. Utilities would need to be moved, he said, and the pad's proximity to the Main Street Bridge also presents complications to construction.

Citrano said that under a master plan for Riverfront Plaza, developed by Chicago designer Perkins & Will, there would be coordinated development of the pad and the east portion of the plaza park. A tower and a beer garden in Perkins & Will's plan would include a shared retaining wall for instance.

Whether the tower and park can be built in concert is unclear, considering that the city has yet to fund the construction of the east half of the park. The west half is under construction.

"These factors make the parcel's development highly complicated and necessitate coordinated construction timelines with Phase II of the park," he wrote. "In real estate development, 'complicated' often translates to 'expensive.'"

More study needed

Citrano, the DIA board's president from July 2023 to June 2024, said the complexities of the site were evident when the DIA received only one response to its original request for proposals from developers for the property. That respondent was New York-based American Lions, which later withdrew after determining that its proposed 44-story residential tower was not feasible.

"Recognizing the need for flexibility, the DIA subsequently hired a consultant to explore interim uses for the site, anticipating that synchronization between park development and private construction might not proceed as planned," Citrano wrote.

"Simultaneously, the DIA was receiving growing community feedback, advocating for alternative uses — ranging from lower-density commercial buildings to full integration of the space into expanded parkland."

The DIA hired the consultant referenced by Citrano in the fall of 2024 to perform an "optimal use study" for properties in and around Riverfront Plaza.

"This effort appears to have been abandoned in favor of the current land swap proposal. Why?" Citrano wrote.

"The DIA should continue with the optimal use study, prioritize community input, and thoroughly assess all potential alternatives for the development of the northeast corner parcel. Doing so may require a redesign of Phase II of the park, but it could better align with the long-term public interest, community sentiment, and potentially reduce the city's financial obligations."

Citrano concludes that if the study found that a tower project was the best option, the property should go back out for proposals from developers so that competing offers could be fully scrutinized.

"This should include thorough due diligence into each developer's background, experience, and financial capacity," he wrote. "An RFP is always in the best interest of taxpayers, whom the City and DIA are duty-bound to represent."

In an interview, Citrano said he initially had not planned to address the situation publicly but changed his mind after the Council Committee of the Whole discussed the land swap during a May 21 meeting.

That day, Council member Chris Miller said he had been hearing only from supporters of the swap and that he would be interested in learning counterpoints.

Citrano said that given his experience on the board and his knowledge of the situation, he felt compelled to speak out.

He emphasized that his opinions were not directed at Gateway Jax but on the plaza properties. He said he is a strong supporter of Gateway Jax, which is moving forward on a Downtown development that comprises 25 city blocks across 32 acres if fully realized.

Citrano demonstrated his support of Gateway Jax as a DIA board member, voting for incentives for the development.

Coming forward

Like Citrano, the steering committee of Riverfront Parks Now said it was reluctant to publicly discuss the issue but had "been encouraged to share our perspective in keeping with our role as a civic advocacy group."

In an email to Council members and members of Mayor Donna Deegan's administration, the group offers a third option that includes a low-rise building with a multilevel restaurant and retail space.

"Tampa's riverfront offers a proven model, with places like the two-story Armature Works and one to three-story Sparkman Wharf that draw people in and energize the area," the email states.

"These vibrant spaces thrive without towers — offering public benefits without costly city-funded financial incentives."

Riverfront Parks now offers another example closer to home, The HUB Brooklyn multiuse restaurant, office and event space under construction at 400 Riverside Ave. The HUB will be anchored by Southern Grounds, the Sky Bar and Alder & Oak.

"This type of structure could allow the City to retain long-term control and ownership of the land while providing leased space for restaurants and rooftop dining that integrate seamlessly into the park," the group wrote, adding that the smaller-scale approach satisfies public interest in riverside dining options while fitting with the character of the park.

Other benefits

The group says its approach could save the city tens of millions of dollars in incentives and utility relocation costs over a tower, requires less parking and promotes a pedestrian-friendly space.

The project would generate tax revenue and, through contributions from occupants of the spaces, could help pay for park maintenance.

"Riverfront Parks Now respectfully recommends the City retain ownership of the back corner of the Landing and lease it to partners who will help create a vibrant, welcoming park in the heart of downtown—delivering the energy of a whole park as soon as possible," the email says. "We urge you to consider this appealing less costly, faster, more park-forward alternative!"

Signees are chair Natalie Rosenberg and members Susan Caven, Barbara Ketchum, Michael Kirwan, Jimmy Orth, Ted Pappas and Nancy Powell

On its website, Riverfront Parks Now describes itself as a coalition of nonprofit organizations working with city leaders, the business community and residents to foster development of parks and green spaces Downtown....

[Low rise images:]

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2025/05/28/Sparkman_Wharf_2_t850.jpeg?94beabde1e982a4eee8f83697e93b1d92468de7c)

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2025/05/28/Sparkman_Wharf_1_t850.jpeg?94beabde1e982a4eee8f83697e93b1d92468de7c)

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2025/may/28/former-dia-chair-pro-parks-group-come-out-against-riverfront-plaza-land-swap/

They are acting like the hub is already completed and people are flocking there and tampa has a bunch of residential and hotel towers all nearby waterfront parks that's why Tampa waterfront works that way is because people are living in towers proximity to the parks. Convention center hotels and museums on Tampa's waterfront Jacksonville does not we have no parks right now and no residential towers nearby to help that area there's really no one living near where those parks will be cbd is all empty office.  so any residents living in close range to that park. that is why gateway wants to put a tower there because there's no-one living there to help contribute at that place. Tampa has shorten parks where buildings are also on the waterfront convention center Marriott hotel apartment tower restaurants all tying together it's not all parks on the waterfront. We can also have buildings and towers that mingle with these parks doesn't have to be all green space need something that's gonna entertain people.

https://floridayimby.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/101_099-300-w-tyler-st-david-allen-productions-scaled.jpg (https://floridayimby.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/101_099-300-w-tyler-st-david-allen-productions-scaled.jpg)

https://media.istockphoto.com/id/1479018139/photo/downtown-tampa-during-sunrise.jpg?s=1024x1024&w=is&k=20&c=C7IndrRwGzoCV91l5N9fCvNw74EV9ATQUl-6ckvEmx0= (https://media.istockphoto.com/id/1479018139/photo/downtown-tampa-during-sunrise.jpg?s=1024x1024&w=is&k=20&c=C7IndrRwGzoCV91l5N9fCvNw74EV9ATQUl-6ckvEmx0=)

Quote from: Skybox111 on May 28, 2025, 10:59:42 PM
Meant state parks but we do have national parks here fort Caroline national memorial and castillo de san marcos also timucuan preserve

None of those are national parks.

I thought the park was fully designed, but not funded for the second half. Not really sure how this pad would change the design. Either the building fits on the pad or it doesn't. Am I missing something?
Also, I would have much more faith that Gateway would make something happen then putting out for bid again. This never seems to work in our favor.

Completely agree Ken, if City Council votes against the land swap deal it would be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Citrano is acting in bad faith with his concerns about the costs. The costs to City are capped at $20,000,000. Furthermore, the ROI is projected to be the best ROI for the City out of any of its recent development. If, for whatever reason, Gateway cannot build the Tower with $20,000,000 in incentives from the City, the City can buy the property back from Gateway for less than the City is selling it for, which guarantees the City can realistically buy the property back. Also, the fear that Gateway can't get this Tower off the ground runs against the reality that they are the only group to start vertical construction for a tower in the Urban Core in the past what, 30 years?

As for all of the Park Lovers. I hope they all realize that Phase II of the Riverfront Plaza is currently not funded. There is a snow balls chance in hell that the City will fund Phase II without a private developer lined up to build on Parcel B. Another reality is that there are no other private developers to build on Parcel B as demonstrated by a failed RFP a few years ago. So, if Gateway doesn't get this property, what the Park Lovers are going to get is a half-built park with 50 percent fenced off and left to rot, just like Friendship Fountian for years. Way to go guys.

Also, If Gateway couldn't make it work, couldn't just be scaled back from 17 to 10 stories, ect.? Also, hasn't Salem been in council through all the past failures: American Lions, Barlow, Ford on Bay, etc. etc.?
I feel like an outside developer, meaning one not currently working with the city, is just going to propose something way over the top and not find it feasible in the end. This cycle will just go on for another 50 years.

City's looking for ways to fumble once again.

Technically yes they are not national parks but are part of the national park service of 11 national parks in florida

Quote from: Des on May 29, 2025, 12:30:09 PM
City's looking for ways to fumble once again.

Not all the city. Hold fast.

With respect to all detractors--because I do think the arguments have merit--this feels a lot like letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. We have been debating, studying, RFPing, re-RFPing, re-studying, canceling, wait-and-seeing, and otherwise screwing around for decades with our riverfront property. Pausing forward momentum again, at this point, will push Phase II back by years and simultaneously limit activation of phase I.

It would in fact be ideal to have a world-class contiguous riverfront park system that draws in organic, unsubsidized* demand for dense CBD development. The sea change that's required in our local politics and priorities, coupled with the historical decisions already being executed, just don't support this happening in the current generation.

*a bit of semantics, but spending hundreds of millions on park amenities could arguably be considered a subsidy in itself

Surely RPN isn't going to win out on this one. It's too much of a no-brainer. I am technically a "member" of RPN and attend meetings occasionally.

One of the first things that I noticed was that many of the most influential figures there have a different idea of what a "park" should be versus what has been successful in the last 2 decades in revitalization projects in the USA. There is an obsession with "green space" as an end to itself. Every park that we love has some type of nature or green space, but the scope of what a destination park is has changed dramatically. Hotels, residential, bars, restaurants, attractions, are now core to what make these urban parks thrive.

Sometimes it seems like the driving force for many in the RPN world is refraining from development whenever possible, or prioritizing nature in a spot that hasn't truly been "natural" for 100+ years. There are places where prioritizing green space above all else make sense. This isn't one of them. Have the big central lawn for sure, but without complementing uses, attractions, destinations, it will fail and look even dumber when compared to the landing.

Also, unironically I wish we were building the Lerp statue.

Unbelievable. I sometimes get the feeling that there is a "tug of war" and power struggle going on in City Hall; and it's not being perpetrated by Mayor Deegan, but certain "you know who's" that don't like her for whatever reason. Salem, Citrano, and others behind the scenes are very hard workers; working hard for their own interests (whatever that might be) and working hard (again for whatever reason) to undermine and destroy Mayor Deegan's image and/or what she is trying so hard to accomplish. If this land swap deal is shot down, I recommend doing away with consolidation, shrink Jacksonville's limits/boundaries back to 1967/68; why? Because our city, because of certain small-minded people in power, think on the level of a 30k (or slightly more I guess) population city rather than a city of 1.08 million people (last estimate). No, towers, tall buildings do not make a city or a great City, people do; but if you say or present yourself as a major city, then start thinking, behaving, and showing yourself as one!!! (I LOVE JAX!)

^ I am not sure it is fair to put Citrano in the same boat with Salem.  Salem is clearly out to frustrate Deegan, no matter what and for his own selfish reasons such as being a want-to-be future mayor.

I am giving Citrano the benefit of the doubt that he genuinely believes his position is best for the future of Downtown. Just because some here see it differently, they shouldn't diss him by comparing him to Salem.

Let's have respect for even those we disagree with.  A diversity of ideas is sorely needed in this City and singlemindedness exists way too much here.

The prevailing view, whatever it might be, should be stress tested to at least ensure that it gets a better outcome than not, because no one challenged its possible defects.  If a position can't hold up to scrutiny, then maybe that isn't the right or best answer.

In my lifetime, I have found that naysayers, cynics and skeptics in this town have a pretty good batting average as projects play out, or don't.  Many of this City's problems today are pretty good evidence of that.

I have absolutely no doubt that if this park is not activated by adjacent development of some description, that it will fail. And the ONLY option for that is within the footprint of the park itself, because there is no other option.

As far as some of the talking points, wouldn't utilities have to be moved whether it was a 1-3 story building going up or a 40 story one? If so, then that is a moot point. Also, while a high rise may require more incentives (and let's be honest, $20mm is chump change compared to what JAX has done for past projects) whereas a 1-3 story project would not, the smaller version would also pay a fraction of the taxes than the larger one.

Given his background I tend to want to give Citrano the benefit of the doubt, but is it possible his name will be prominent in a potential Ron Salem administration?     

Quote from: vicupstate on May 31, 2025, 10:47:01 AM
a potential Ron Salem administration?     

Just the sound of this makes me nauseous

Crane is up at Pearl Street!

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Cnv83WS/Pearl-Street-Crane.jpg)

Quote from: Zac T on June 04, 2025, 01:22:03 PM
Crane is up at Pearl Street!

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Cnv83WS/Pearl-Street-Crane.jpg)

Another crane in downtown?! I'm not crying, you're crying!

#DonnaGetsItDone

Is the crane for the tower?

Quote from: Zac T on June 04, 2025, 01:22:03 PM
Crane is up at Pearl Street!

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Cnv83WS/Pearl-Street-Crane.jpg)

I saw this yesterday and I was like "Yup it's happening!" Downtown Jax Baby!

I don't think it's for the high-rise tower; it's for one of the lower rise residential. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I believe the high-rise tower is next (3rd building) to go up (N8 I believe?), and will be the tallest at 275 feet; N9 will supposedly be 200 feet, or thereabouts in height.

Something really needs to be done about the old JEA/Independent Life Tower. It is quickly becoming a dilapidated eye sore. Anyone heard anything more relative to development of this building? I am hoping, and praying that Bryan Moll decides, for whatever reason to include it in his "Pearl Square" chest.

It's tied up in a few lawsuits. Gateway acquired the block across the street, which is where it's parking deck was supposed to be constructed. So that site is pretty much boxed in. So regardless of what happens and/or who owns it, Gateway will be in the mix.

Quote from: heights unknown on June 04, 2025, 08:58:04 PM
I don't think it's for the high-rise tower; it's for one of the lower rise residential. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I believe the high-rise tower is next (3rd building) to go up (N8 I believe?), and will be the tallest at 275 feet; N9 will supposedly be 200 feet, or thereabouts in height.

You are correct. The crane is for Block N11. Block N9 is no longer planned to be a highrise but rather a "boutique" office building as pictured below. Block N8 and the garage behind The Ambassador are scheduled to break ground in the fall. I haven't read anything regarding whether or not the Ambassador garage will include ground floor retail space but hopefully it does

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD0SxjHx/Pearl-Square.jpg)

Quote from: Zac T on June 06, 2025, 02:02:39 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on June 04, 2025, 08:58:04 PM
I don't think it's for the high-rise tower; it's for one of the lower rise residential. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I believe the high-rise tower is next (3rd building) to go up (N8 I believe?), and will be the tallest at 275 feet; N9 will supposedly be 200 feet, or thereabouts in height.

You are correct. The crane is for Block N11. Block N9 is no longer planned to be a highrise but rather a "boutique" office building as pictured below. Block N8 and the garage behind The Ambassador are scheduled to break ground in the fall. I haven't read anything regarding whether or not the Ambassador garage will include ground floor retail space but hopefully it does

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD0SxjHx/Pearl-Square.jpg)

Awesome; totally frickin awesome.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCUJune-2025/i-PrpJ3Gg/0/KvJrFZBTmJdTJpcVHRcZxBwVmjskPbvRtH9jtG5NQ/X2/20250606_094413-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCUJune-2025/i-7rJ4FHq/0/LNmSJvGWHVjtcshDRL9cPPdG36h9ghwdWzQPbnM9q/X2/20250606_185145-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCUJune-2025/i-sHLVRx6/0/KPWz6WsbMb8RBd8W2hjWgBhb6vNkFDP5vt8fWn8J5/X2/20250606_185152-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCUJune-2025/i-pn4Z8Sz/0/LJJMKMdxV35FMzjDFJjLBKgTLwFG6VDhR6nMmQGPF/X2/20250606_185320-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCUJune-2025/i-qPLVwRZ/0/K5GrSCg8sf4BVDHvNVgcG7t3N3bJFcKtKTKSwf7qX/X2/20250606_185352-X2.jpg)

Hard the believe.  Gotta give these guys kudos for getting this much off the ground when no one else has even come close.

Yes and I agree; many KUDOS to them for shooting their rocket(s) off to the moon. BTW...that crane looks good but sure looks real skinny. I hope it's secured really good and deep into the ground.

Those brown apartments in back of the crane (the old St. Johns Apartments (don't know what it is now called)), needs to be painted either white or off white to blend in with the buildings in and around Pearl Square. Sarasota skyline is an excellent example of most of the towers blending in together "color wise" so that there won't be a clash of colors of the buildings. I know this is a small and minute thing but believe me it works relative to "eye pleasing" to attract people to certain areas.

Great update photos, @Lakelander

Quote from: heights unknown on June 07, 2025, 10:20:38 AM
Yes and I agree; many KUDOS to them for shooting their rocket(s) off to the moon. BTW...that crane looks good but sure looks real skinny. I hope it's secured really good and deep into the ground.

It's a self erecting crane.  There is nothing in the ground like there would be for a more traditional tower crane.  These are more portable and easier to assemble for use on smaller jobs.

Quote from: acme54321 on June 08, 2025, 10:41:04 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on June 07, 2025, 10:20:38 AM
Yes and I agree; many KUDOS to them for shooting their rocket(s) off to the moon. BTW...that crane looks good but sure looks real skinny. I hope it's secured really good and deep into the ground.

It's a self erecting crane.  There is nothing in the ground like there would be for a more traditional tower crane.  These are more portable and easier to assemble for use on smaller jobs.

The Doro is using a similar, but slightly larger, crane.  The office crane has come down at the Shipyards, but the two hotel cranes are still going strong. 

A few more from driving by today.

(https://i.postimg.cc/G3kt2YVq/IMG-6545.avif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/90jfbFRd/IMG-6546.avif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyjRrnm6/IMG-6547.avif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tT6TFVTR/IMG-6548.avif)

Any updates on the Related project near the Friendship Fountain?

Good question.... Last i heard the related group is supposed to break ground before end of summer.... Late July/early August. Not sure how true that is..

Aren't most high rises built with steel framing?  Or, could Related use moving concrete forms?  If the former, I wonder how Trump's tariffs on steel and so much more will impact building costs?  Plus, the reduction of the labor pool due to the immigration crackdowns?  I also don't see interest rates dropping much, if at all.  Doesn't seem like a great time to build over the coming months or more.

According to the last Daily Record article I found, final designs were supposed to be completed last month and construction is supposed to be completed no later than April 30, 2029. They are still well within their timeline

QuoteUnder the term sheet, the new proposal would include eight floors of luxury units including studios and 1-, 2- and 3-bedroom apartments. The project would include a 550-space parking garage with 30 spaces reserved for visitors to the Museum of Science & History.

Related also would manage and execute improvements to the Riverwalk and would deed a 4,200-square-foot parcel to the city to permit expansion of St. Johns River Park and Friendship Fountain.

Terms call for final design to be completed by May 30, 2025, and for construction to be completed by April 30, 2029.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2024/may/06/the-related-groups-residential-tower-project-resurfaces-along-southbank/

Quote
Terms call for final design to be completed by May 30, 2025

Did they meet this deadline? Have they submitted final plans to the DIA?

Rad new art installations going up in front of the Courthouse.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1C8GTPEPJo/

Love it!

The renderings... ;D ;) :o...show an access road right in front of the courthouse? Be good to have something in the space, but why is so hard for Jacksonville folks get renderings correct?

I think they're planning on adding the road.

"Reconnecting" Monroe Street has been a topic of discussion since the Courthouse was plopped down across it.  I had hoped it was permanently put to bed, but, apparently not.

Interesting. I did not recall that being a thing. I agree with the above, not a fan.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 19, 2025, 09:24:35 AM
"Reconnecting" Monroe Street has been a topic of discussion since the Courthouse was plopped down across it.  I had hoped it was permanently put to bed, but, apparently not.

I believe a requirement of the art installation was that it not impede the potential road. That said, in today's world, an open public road that close to a courthouse should be a non-starter.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 20, 2025, 12:09:18 PM

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 19, 2025, 09:24:35 AM
"Reconnecting" Monroe Street has been a topic of discussion since the Courthouse was plopped down across it.  I had hoped it was permanently put to bed, but, apparently not.

I believe a requirement of the art installation was that it not impede the potential road. That said, in today's world, an open public road that close to a courthouse should be a non-starter.

Although a road there could be seen as a way to constrain public protests. Much smaller lawn and it is against the law to block public roads (to say nothing of the 'free shot' the Gov DuhSatan gave to motorists 'confronted' by demonstrators).

Quote from: Gambit80 on June 19, 2025, 09:34:01 AM
Interesting. I did not recall that being a thing. I agree with the above, not a fan.

This has been ongoing since 2007, really even before that if you consider that the Courthouse designs from 1999/2000 originally didnt envision leveling almost six city blocks and settling on the ugly waste of space that was built.

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-dec-duval-county-courthouse-renderings (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-dec-duval-county-courthouse-renderings)


They have wanted to continue Monroe Street throughout the grid because back during the River City Rennaissance plan that leveled LaVilla... a new highway ramp was constructed, alongside the I-95/I-10 reconstruction, at Monroe Street.  The RCR plan 'envisioned' that Monroe Street would be grand entrance into Downtown by getting rid of the 'slums' and constructing a new three-lane tree-lined street.

The problem is that the sprawling building design that was ultimately selected literally cut off that grid.

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2006-nov-downtown-frankenstein-lavilla-style (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2006-nov-downtown-frankenstein-lavilla-style)
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4640-p1090989.JPG)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Development/Duval-County-Courthouse-Plaza/i-jPN3bWK/0/NTZjGQNPCjshD6NGq9pzxQRc7J6GHQwXZ4PGBXXGW/O/Slide27.jpg)

When the Courthouse was tens of millions (really hundreds of millions) over budget, former City officials tried to sweep up the public art money set aside (required by ordinance) and instead use that to fund this weird street redesign that would have continued Monroe Street in a long, sweeping two lane road located about 15 feet from the two-lane Adams Street in between the Courthouse and the Courthouse parking garage.

This site has been the leading voice advocating for a proper public square in place of that ridiculous roadway.

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-mar-peyton-struggles-the-truth-about-the-courthouse (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-mar-peyton-struggles-the-truth-about-the-courthouse)

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-feb-why-monroe-street-should-not-be-rebuilt (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-feb-why-monroe-street-should-not-be-rebuilt)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Development/Duval-County-Courthouse/i-cMxdGLj/0/MLv78NVcXPsWfFC6jjvJgnG6HZRM9VpR4c5dmDPL9/L/dec_08_ddrb_agenda_for_web_page_32-L.jpg)

While 'successful', and that success included protecting the public art funds now being used to create art installations in the public space (at one point the chief judge wanted to use that money instead to paint portraits of judges to hang in their offices), those efforts came with a compromise. The compromise was that any public plaza had to be designed to preserve a potential Monroe Street ROW being constructed in the future.  My sincere hope is that this roadway never breaks ground before those that have been pushing for Monroe Street to be extended, pass on to the next world. so that this ridiculous idea can also be put to eternal rest.  I hope those individuals continue to live very long and happy lives... but they are long in the tooth now, so the longer that roadway can be delayed, the better.

Wood frame now going up on Block N11 in Pearl Square

(https://i.postimg.cc/SKkd48Vf/Block-N11.jpg)

Quote from: fieldafm on June 20, 2025, 01:04:40 PM
My sincere hope is that this roadway never breaks ground before those that have been pushing for Monroe Street to be extended, pass on to the next world. so that this ridiculous idea can also be put to eternal rest.  I hope those individuals continue to live very long and happy lives... but they are long in the tooth now, so the longer that roadway can be delayed, the better.

What should help is that FDOT will be minimizing the Monroe Street off-ramp from I-95 as part of an upcoming project

There's already a weird lane drop heading eastbound at the Emerald Trail now. This little road idea should be taken out back and shot for good.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 24, 2025, 12:48:29 PM

Quote from: fieldafm on June 20, 2025, 01:04:40 PM
My sincere hope is that this roadway never breaks ground before those that have been pushing for Monroe Street to be extended, pass on to the next world. so that this ridiculous idea can also be put to eternal rest.  I hope those individuals continue to live very long and happy lives... but they are long in the tooth now, so the longer that roadway can be delayed, the better.

What should help is that FDOT will be minimizing the Monroe Street off-ramp from I-95 as part of an upcoming project

LOL, I remember when the City designated the Monroe Street exit from I-95 as the premier/gateway exit to Downtown.  Fixed it up and landscaped it with plenty of "Florida palm trees."  And, shortly thereafter, they plopped the Courthouse in the middle of it.  Just another example of a lack of a master plan or any plan, for that matter, for Downtown.  Pure stupidity.

Ironic, to see the Beaver Street project being designated as "Gateway."  Definitely makes more sense vs. Monroe.  4 lane, U.S. 90.  Takes private developers to fill the planning void the City has created.

Anyone know where Corner Lot's Jones on Hogan is now? I believe permits have been issued a few months ago.

Work has started on the Jones Brothers Furniture building. They are currently working on the interior of that structure.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 27, 2025, 11:05:14 AM
Work has started on the Jones Brothers Furniture building. They are currently working on the interior of that structure.

Great news. I wonder when that project, as a whole will be completed?

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Pearl-Street-District-October-2023/i-MN3RXXc/0/LSgpdZKHsG5vbqQXT54mJDqRC4Zm96Q5cQvcMMt23/X5/IMG_20250627_193615-X5.jpg)

Should be topped out in 2-3 weeks.

It looks like they prefab some sections... is this the key to speeding up the project?  Do they at least precut the lumber pieces?  Looks like that would make sense given the repeating patterns in the picture and likely the same floor plan for each floor.

Always love watching carpenters at work... the real workhorses to getting many buildings built  ;D.

Man; they sure don't build them or make them like they used to. Whenever I see a lot of wood or lumber like that, it brings to mind two things: 1) match sticks; 2) popsicle sticks. Just saying.

I'm relatively new with posting on this forum, but how do you upload pictures on here?

I tried using the "add attachment" feature, but I haven't had much success with it.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 27, 2025, 11:09:24 PM
It looks like they prefab some sections... is this the key to speeding up the project?  Do they at least precut the lumber pieces?  Looks like that would make sense given the repeating patterns in the picture and likely the same floor plan for each floor.

Those are probably mock ups for the crew to reference

Quote from: Jones518 on June 28, 2025, 01:15:06 PM
I'm relatively new with posting on this forum, but how do you upload pictures on here?

I tried using the "add attachment" feature, but I haven't had much success with it.

You can use https://postimages.org/ and upload the picture on there. It'll then give you a direct link that you can paste into the "Insert Image" button on here

Quote from: heights unknown on June 28, 2025, 10:27:54 AM
Man; they sure don't build them or make them like they used to. Whenever I see a lot of wood or lumber like that, it brings to mind two things: 1) match sticks; 2) popsicle sticks. Just saying.

These buildings actually have very strict codes that they must follow and when all the fire suppression systems are in place and activated, it's very easy to contain fires and prevent them from spreading. That is why despite the proliferation of wood-frame construction apartments, we don't see many of them burning down. Case in point, there was a fire at the Lofts at Jefferson last week but you would never know because it was very easily contained to the unit where it began.

In the case of RISE Doro, none of the fire suppression systems were active yet.

Quote from: Zac T on June 29, 2025, 12:28:19 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on June 28, 2025, 10:27:54 AM
Man; they sure don't build them or make them like they used to. Whenever I see a lot of wood or lumber like that, it brings to mind two things: 1) match sticks; 2) popsicle sticks. Just saying.

These buildings actually have very strict codes that they must follow and when all the fire suppression systems are in place and activated, it's very easy to contain fires and prevent them from spreading. That is why despite the proliferation of wood-frame construction apartments, we don't see many of them burning down. Case in point, there was a fire at the Lofts at Jefferson last week but you would never know because it was very easily contained to the unit where it began.

In the case of RISE Doro, none of the fire suppression systems were active yet.

Thanks Zac. I now understand that just because construction is of mostly wood, don't mean that it will blow over or kerosene explode.

Quote from: heights unknown on June 28, 2025, 10:27:54 AM
Man; they sure don't build them or make them like they used to. Whenever I see a lot of wood or lumber like that, it brings to mind two things: 1) match sticks; 2) popsicle sticks. Just saying.

The wood buildings have been around for a long time!

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/San-Diego-March-2018/i-ZbtSKwz/0/L4qDQNb8hRsCgRZf9tmpQfVcPCDKxvXhqWBMCjZFx/L/20180319_154016-L.jpg)


Throughout history, every now and then, some of our largest just burned down 100 years ago!

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4235122594_HGfdMZ2-800x1000.jpg)

 https://m.youtube.com/@stevecameronbennett5821 (https://m.youtube.com/@stevecameronbennett5821)

Not sure if it's been mentioned here before, but worth a look as Steve takes vids of downtown projects with his drone and gives a brief description of the project and showcases the progress thus far. Followed by final product/ artist renderings. He used to post evey couple of weeks.

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on June 30, 2025, 03:00:20 PM
https://m.youtube.com/@stevecameronbennett5821 (https://m.youtube.com/@stevecameronbennett5821)

Not sure if it's been mentioned here before, but worth a look as Steve takes vids of downtown projects with his drone and gives a brief description of the project and showcases the progress thus far. Followed by final product/ artist renderings. He used to post evey couple of weeks.

I've been looking for a channel like this, thanks!!

Here's a really cool site a friend of mine produces which shows 360 tours of different downtown developments.  Great Pearl Square, Doro, and Four Seasons drone shots. 

https://developjacksonville.com/category/360-tours/

Riverfront Plaza starting to take shape.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VN4HYkbD/IMG-9089.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/633bTxrw/IMG-9090.jpg)

Will be glad see this one finished!

Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

Sure feels like poor form given the rush to get the land swaps approved.

But the Fall semester is days away, the Fall 2025 timeline always felt a little ambitious, and I'm not reading anything to it.

Hopefully it sets UF up for a more successful launch a year from now.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on August 02, 2025, 09:22:11 AM

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

Sure feels like poor form given the rush to get the land swaps approved.

But the Fall semester is days away, the Fall 2025 timeline always felt a little ambitious, and I'm not reading anything to it.

Hopefully it sets UF up for a more successful launch a year from now.

It's disappointing but it makes sense. UF was always clear (including publicly to City Council) the goal was to get possession of the building to renovate it so several programs could be there for fall 2026, with the possibility Architecture could move in this fall. Apparently they've decided it makes more sense to do the whole building at once. The Architecture lab will still be Downtown in the meantime.

I have a family member that is chief legal counsel for a top 25 national university. Was talking with them a few months back about Vanderbilt's campus in WPB and UF's Jax campus. They said that virtually every higher education institution is putting a pause on major expansion due to federal funding uncertainty. They said they would be shocked if either campus started soon, as everyone is still in wait and see mode.

I'm sure the complexity and timing of the land swap didn't help, but if I had to guess UF's inner turmoil with their presidency/deans and the federal funding was a bigger factor.

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

?????????? WHY? I don't get it. How does this affect the swap? (the swap was done right?)

Quote from: heights unknown on August 02, 2025, 02:00:14 PM

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

?????????? WHY? I don't get it. How does this affect the swap? (the swap was done right?)

It doesn't affect the swap, which approved at the city level and moving forward later this month. They were always going to have to do interior buildout before most of the building was ready in 2026. See below:

Quote from: Tacachale on August 02, 2025, 11:34:57 AM

It's disappointing but it makes sense. UF was always clear (including publicly to City Council) the goal was to get possession of the building to renovate it so several programs could be there for fall 2026, with the possibility Architecture could move in this fall. Apparently they've decided it makes more sense to do the whole building at once. The Architecture lab will still be Downtown in the meantime.

Quote from: Tacachale on August 02, 2025, 02:57:15 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on August 02, 2025, 02:00:14 PM

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

?????????? WHY? I don't get it. How does this affect the swap? (the swap was done right?)

It doesn't affect the swap, which approved at the city level and moving forward later this month. They were always going to have to do interior buildout before most of the building was ready in 2026. See below:

Quote from: Tacachale on August 02, 2025, 11:34:57 AM

It's disappointing but it makes sense. UF was always clear (including publicly to City Council) the goal was to get possession of the building to renovate it so several programs could be there for fall 2026, with the possibility Architecture could move in this fall. Apparently they've decided it makes more sense to do the whole building at once. The Architecture lab will still be Downtown in the meantime.

Thanks Takachale ("T").

Quote from: heights unknown on August 02, 2025, 02:00:14 PM

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

?????????? WHY? I don't get it. How does this affect the swap? (the swap was done right?)

Their timeline to move into the building always seemed completely unrealistic. I think they were just leveraging it to get the deals done.  They have to do a complete interior build out, you can't reasonably do that in a few months.

Quote from: acme54321 on August 02, 2025, 09:02:14 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on August 02, 2025, 02:00:14 PM

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

?????????? WHY? I don't get it. How does this affect the swap? (the swap was done right?)

Their timeline to move into the building always seemed completely unrealistic. I think they were just leveraging it to get the deals done.  They have to do a complete interior build out, you can't reasonably do that in a few months.

Should be in there in part by January 2026. Won't be long.

Other than the architecture program that has been here all along, what new programs will be started in 2026?  I haven't seen much on the specifics of what's next, program-wise?  That seems odd at this point in time.

I'm not complaining trust me; but.......WHO the HELL told downtown Jacksonville to start waking up? Keep shaking her shoulders. Get her up and running!!!

This project hints at another building going up in the heart of Downtown... a 500 vehicle parking garage expansion for a developer owning a nearby vacant lot that says stay tuned...

QuoteCity issues permit for Amkin's $13 million Downtown garage expansion
The addition will add 500 spaces to the 1,000-spot facility at Bay and Pearl streets.

...Driver, McAfee, Hawthorne & Diebenow attorney Staci Rewis, who represented Amkin on the project, told the board the garage owner has "some future development plans" near the site but did not provide further details....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2025/oct/03/city-issues-permit-for-amkins-13-million-downtown-garage-expansion/

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2023/04/06/301_Bay_Garage_Expansion_map_t850.jpg?94beabde1e982a4eee8f83697e93b1d92468de7c)

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2025/10/03/Amkin_Garage_spex_t850.jpeg?94beabde1e982a4eee8f83697e93b1d92468de7c)

How will construction affect the operations of the existing garage? Can they build the new portion, then tie it to the existing garage incrementally? The garage serves the adjacent Marriot Hotel, as well for events at the Performing Arts Center - what is utilization during weekdays?

On a typical weekday, the first couple of floors are reserved for hotel use. Starting from the third floor (I believe), the rest is occupied by staff from the EverBank building, along with the old Greyhound station parking lot. I'm not sure about the other nearby buildings.

It'll be interesting to see what ends up being proposed for that old Greyhound lot. A co-working/residential development would make a lot of sense in that area. I don't really see another hotel going there, since the area feels more like a business district — but I could be wrong. An overflow garage might also be a smart addition, depending on what's planned. Just thinking out loud.

Brickell in Miami, for example, is mostly residential now, and Amkin has ties to Related Group out of Miami. Whatever ends up being developed, I'm hoping it becomes Jacksonville's tallest tower. Curious to hear what others think.

On another note, now that he's acquired more land near Talleyrand and starting work on the garage, I wonder if we'll start seeing some movement around Friendship Fountain as well?

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on October 04, 2025, 01:22:55 PM
On a typical weekday, the first couple of floors are reserved for hotel use. Starting from the third floor (I believe), the rest is occupied by staff from the EverBank building, along with the old Greyhound station parking lot. I'm not sure about the other nearby buildings.

It'll be interesting to see what ends up being proposed for that old Greyhound lot. A co-working/residential development would make a lot of sense in that area. I don't really see another hotel going there, since the area feels more like a business district — but I could be wrong. An overflow garage might also be a smart addition, depending on what's planned. Just thinking out loud.

Brickell in Miami, for example, is mostly residential now, and Amkin has ties to Related Group out of Miami. Whatever ends up being developed, I'm hoping it becomes Jacksonville's tallest tower. Curious to hear what others think.

On another note, now that he's acquired more land near Talleyrand and starting work on the garage, I wonder if we'll start seeing some movement around Friendship Fountain as well?

Not too long ago (wish I could find it), someone, from Miami/South Florida I believe, did give a proposal for a tower on that site not too long after the property was razed. I too hope a nice tall tower, residential, goes on that site (y'all know me LOL). Why doesn't Ergisi look at that site or does Amkin basically has that property locked??

Amkin owns that parking lot and he was the one who proposed a 54 story tower and i hope it gets built or make it taller and have that ergisi tower built as well.

I'm pretty sure his tower "proposal" was just fluff so he could get away with razing the Greyhound station for an illegal surface parking lot with no penalty. Doubt we see any serious development on that site or any of the other properties he owns but I would love to be wrong

Quote from: Zac T on October 04, 2025, 10:54:52 PM
I'm pretty sure his tower "proposal" was just fluff so he could get away with razing the Greyhound station for an illegal surface parking lot with no penalty. Doubt we see any serious development on that site or any of the other properties he owns but I would love to be wrong

Bingo.

Quote from: Zac T on October 04, 2025, 10:54:52 PM
I'm pretty sure his tower "proposal" was just fluff so he could get away with razing the Greyhound station for an illegal surface parking lot with no penalty. Doubt we see any serious development on that site or any of the other properties he owns but I would love to be wrong

Very high possibility you are correct Zac; but....not to disrespect but I too hope you are wrong. It seems, or appears, that suddenly many people, outsiders included, are seeing the immense potential in downtown Jacksonville and its urban core. And I believe most want in on "the best kept secret" that is no longer being silent. We shall soon see (I believe). There's many hints, here and there going around.

It was back in 2019 when this proposal was let out of the bag. It's been 6 years and 2025 is almost done; AND NOTHING HAS HAPPENED. Though I still hope and have pipe dreams, I doubt that anything serious is being proposed or envisioned for that site. Click on the link below to view news media:

https://dia.jacksonville.gov/news/developer-floats-idea-to-build-downtown-s-tallest-tower

Does anyone know what's up with Maxwell house? Seems like the demo a building on the east side late last week. Now an explosion in the factory today?

No idea, but was really hoping they would do a street level little coffee shop & a factory tour for a little tiny attraction to compliment Shipyards West park.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jacksonville-firefighters-respond-explosion-downtown-maxwell-house-plant-no-one-injured/Z4F4V54IJJFF5JOONEB6OC6RLA/

Sad to see one of the few remaining turn-of-the-century warehouses from the East Bay Street warehouse district being torn down. I have no idea what Maxwell House is going to put there but I'd be surprised if its something other than more asphalt for truck parking.

Perfect opportunity for them to make a cool little coffee shop outside their factory. It's an opportunity to engage someone who isn't 67 years old into the Maxwell House Faithful.

Did anyone know about this? This was obviously, in accordance with this article, quietly done on or about January 17, 2026. I don't remember anyone in the forum posting anything about this. It appears that Related Group's Southbank Development has received final approval from Jax City Council. Check out the below article:

https://www.herejacksonville.com/jacksonville-residential-tower-approved/

HU

Quote from: heights unknown on January 31, 2026, 07:41:34 PM
Did anyone know about this? This was obviously, in accordance with this article, quietly done on or about January 17, 2026. I don't remember anyone in the forum posting anything about this. It appears that Related Group's Southbank Development has received final approval from Jax City Council. Check out the below article:

https://www.herejacksonville.com/jacksonville-residential-tower-approved/

HU

Yes! Good stuff.

It was brought up. I believe I posted about it on a different thread... I'm hopeful, but I'll be happy once I see Related Group break group and get cranes in the air... allegedly they are supposed to brake ground sometime this month... fingers crossed ...we will see...

Quote from: heights unknown on January 31, 2026, 07:41:34 PM
Did anyone know about this? This was obviously, in accordance with this article, quietly done on or about January 17, 2026. I don't remember anyone in the forum posting anything about this. It appears that Related Group's Southbank Development has received final approval from Jax City Council. Check out the below article:

https://www.herejacksonville.com/jacksonville-residential-tower-approved/

HU

Quote from: Jones518 on February 03, 2026, 01:20:15 AM
It was brought up. I believe I posted about it on a different thread... I'm hopeful, but I'll be happy once I see Related Group break group and get cranes in the air... allegedly they are supposed to brake ground sometime this month... fingers crossed ...we will see...

Quote from: heights unknown on January 31, 2026, 07:41:34 PM
Did anyone know about this? This was obviously, in accordance with this article, quietly done on or about January 17, 2026. I don't remember anyone in the forum posting anything about this. It appears that Related Group's Southbank Development has received final approval from Jax City Council. Check out the below article:

https://www.herejacksonville.com/jacksonville-residential-tower-approved/

HU

I hear you, and I definitely feel you. Our track record is poor to nil in that regard.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 26, 2026, 02:59:03 PM
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jacksonville-firefighters-respond-explosion-downtown-maxwell-house-plant-no-one-injured/Z4F4V54IJJFF5JOONEB6OC6RLA/

Sad to see one of the few remaining turn-of-the-century warehouses from the East Bay Street warehouse district being torn down. I have no idea what Maxwell House is going to put there but I'd be surprised if its something other than more asphalt for truck parking.

Crazy part is that space would yield maybe 8-10 additional semis. It's not a big space. My thought is they would try and make that an entrance to their lot because their current entrance tends to flood when the tides/weather push in.

Looks like some type of major foundation work has started beside the Ambassador?

(https://i.postimg.cc/8cbQ58mb/IMG-0274.jpg)

Foundations for the garage.  They've been at it for a few weeks.

Yes, the garage work is underway. Work on the Ambassador should begin soon as well.

Boutique Hotel...The Ambassador; gotta come downtown and stay there sometimes. I have history in the old Ambassador. Any word on what they will do with the Basement? It was a bar and liquor store back in the day.

Does anyone consult the DIA, DDRB, city planning, or the ADA before slapping an enormous statue down that totally obstructs the Laura Streer sidewalk?

Meandering, short-sighted planning in a vacuum with no consideration to the park, library, pedestrian experience, etc.

(https://i.postimg.cc/J0sncdhh/IMG-5226.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/76shzyqJ/IMG-5227.jpg)

Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 25, 2026, 05:15:28 PMDoes anyone consult the DIA, DDRB, city planning, or the ADA before slapping an enormous statue down that totally obstructs the Laura Streer sidewalk?

Meandering, short-sighted planning in a vacuum with no consideration to the park, library, pedestrian experience, etc.

(https://i.postimg.cc/J0sncdhh/IMG-5226.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/76shzyqJ/IMG-5227.jpg)

Yes, this was included in the budget last year (though it ended up being funded privately if I recall correctly). This is the location that was worked out between the city, the museum and the Frank Stella estate.

It is a Frank Stella! I believe it was the last piece he worked on.

But why planted in the middle of the sidewalk on Laura Street, which we hope to eventually be a high-traffic corridor? While squeezing scooter and pedestrian traffic together into a tight bottleneck? I'm all for public art, just seems like a bizarre and obstructive place to drop it.

It seems like it will take up less space when it's finished.

I note it is in line with a row of trees so may not be much more restrictive than what is already there.

The foundation is making it look bigger than it is.

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on March 26, 2026, 07:39:35 AMThe foundation is making it look bigger than it is.

I actually talked to the construction crew this morning to get more details, and you're right. Won't be as large as it appears at the moment. Footprint will be smaller, and it's more of a vertical structure. A better use of the wide sidewalk here than say outdoor seating for Setlan/MOCA's restaurant? I'd argue no. But there will be more space than I initially feared.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 25, 2026, 06:10:55 PMBut why planted in the middle of the sidewalk on Laura Street, which we hope to eventually be a high-traffic corridor? While squeezing scooter and pedestrian traffic together into a tight bottleneck? I'm all for public art, just seems like a bizarre and obstructive place to drop it.

As far as ADA goes, the requirement is 4' of clear space - most are aiming for 5' these days - and there appears to be far more than that here.

Good lord, man.

Another grant falls through because Jax failed to follow through on the paperwork.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/jacksonville-loses-1-million-grant-james-weldon-johnson-park-upgrades/77-79082c6b-ffbf-4597-a2d2-01a6cd76468b#

Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 30, 2026, 11:02:08 PMGood lord, man.

Another grant falls through because Jax failed to follow through on the paperwork.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/jacksonville-loses-1-million-grant-james-weldon-johnson-park-upgrades/77-79082c6b-ffbf-4597-a2d2-01a6cd76468b#

In reading the full article, it appears the State sent a letter saying the extension that cost the City the grant wasn't needed.  Two sides to the coin here.  Rory Diamond desperate for finding faults under Deegan.  Where was he and his ilk when Curry was mayor?

Quote...Mayor Donna Deegan's office said the grant manager at the Dept. of State told the city's parks department grant manager she would not need to request another deadline extension.

Emails between the city's parks department and the state department dated July 2024 show the city's grant manager asking if a contract extension would need to be completed since the city was waiting on legislative approval for a final piece of the grant. The Department of State said an extension should not be needed as long as the expenditures were paid out...

I was a state's grant review panelist for this particular grant program. $60 million in AACH grants were awarded statewide.

Some other local projects awarded include Old Stanton School (window replacement now happening), Mount Zion AME (stained glass window restoration now complete), CWM (restoration of Eartha White's house off Moncrief Rd) and Debs Store (completed last year). Here's a link to an article I wrote about this back in 2022:

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/historic-sites-awarded-restoration-funds

Seems there's probably more to the story. The contract and any amendments would be where the rubber meets the road. Emails don't mean much.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 31, 2026, 12:51:41 AM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on March 30, 2026, 11:02:08 PMGood lord, man.

Another grant falls through because Jax failed to follow through on the paperwork.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/jacksonville-loses-1-million-grant-james-weldon-johnson-park-upgrades/77-79082c6b-ffbf-4597-a2d2-01a6cd76468b#

In reading the full article, it appears the State sent a letter saying the extension that cost the City the grant wasn't needed.  Two sides to the coin here.  Rory Diamond desperate for finding faults under Deegan.  Where was he and his ilk when Curry was mayor?

Quote...Mayor Donna Deegan's office said the grant manager at the Dept. of State told the city's parks department grant manager she would not need to request another deadline extension.

Emails between the city's parks department and the state department dated July 2024 show the city's grant manager asking if a contract extension would need to be completed since the city was waiting on legislative approval for a final piece of the grant. The Department of State said an extension should not be needed as long as the expenditures were paid out...

Not pointing fingers at anyone specifically. Like with the lost Emerald Trail grant, there are probably five sides to the story. Self-defeating losses like this are just too common here historically.

The executed contract would be the only thing that's legally valid but its not mentioned in the article. Just a bunch of typical heresay and political potshots we tend to hear locally.

Those grants are typically dispersed in draws, so I'm not completely understanding why we'd spend $1 million up front before getting a few draws. But the article overlooks that and the quotes provided don't align with that typical disbursement process.

In a weird twist of fate, Jax shouldn't have gotten the grant to begin with. So its probably a bit of karma.

Originally, the state allocated $30 million to the grant program. The JWJ Park ranked well below that threshold. It likely would not have even been eligible for the program if it had not been recently renamed after an African American (who would roll over in his grave if he knew his name was attached to it).

Then there was the issue with a city that has a $2 billion annual budget and resources competing for funds geared towards small organizations like Historic Stanton or projects intended for historic Black communities like Debs Store (its hard to stretch $30 million statewide when those with the economic means are eating $1 million chunks). These were two reasons it didn't score nearly as well as some of the other local projects in AA neighborhoods with real AA history like Mt. Zion AME or Debs.

After the review and project rankings were finalized, the federal government ended up doubling the total program amount to $60 million, which got the JWJ Park project funded (it came in around the $55 million mark).

Locally, when it comes to downtown and JWJ Park, I get the frustration. Some where in there, the grant administration part of the project fell apart. No doubt about that. The grant application came during the Curry administration, so I'm not sure how staff turnover would have impacted the Jax side over time.

The funds were supposed to be used in a year, so the several extensions would also be a concern I'd have. Debs got a $1 million from the same program and their project was completed a year or two ago.

But looking at the overall picture and intent of that program from a perspective of someone who had to review, grade and rank every application statewide, Jax should have spent that $1 million on itself anyway. So I'm not necessarily disappointed.

That's simply not what happened, and at least the current version of the article makes that clear. After a couple of extensions, the city was still awaiting the state legislature's final approval of the grant and it was clear the last deadline would be passed again. The city grants administrator asked the state if they should file another extension, and the state said it wasn't necessary, which makes sense as the holdup was on the state's end. But then the next year they come back and say they won't approve the grant reimbursement... because the deadline was passed.

It doesn't slow anything down as this was going to be a reimbursement and the park is already in the CIP, but it's unfortunate. Diamond should really quit talking out out of his ass like this, but personally I'm glad he doesn't because it's revealing of his character.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/jacksonville-loses-1-million-grant-james-weldon-johnson-park-upgrades/77-79082c6b-ffbf-4597-a2d2-01a6cd76468b#

QuoteThat $1 million has already been spent by the city, though, for some of the initial design work and to remove a confederate monument, and the city will no longer be reimbursed for that money.

The Confederate monument was removed in 2020, two years before the AACH grant program. DHR grants don't generally allow for reimbursement for funds spent before being awarded. If DHR was reimbursing funds like this, then we really have a big problem in Tallahassee (and maybe we do). My memory may be fuzzy and a little off but I generally remember this application being used to fund the park's redesign but not physical construction. Glad the park is already in the CIP but sorry about the pettiness Diamond keeps up.

The sculpture was starting to go up this morning in front of MOCA.

(https://i.postimg.cc/PJTFQD7h/Screenshot-2026-04-08-at-10-44-04-AM.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHdGC2pp/IMG-6373.avif)

@heights unknown  Here the moment you've been waiting for!

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/apr/08/mayor-donna-deegan-related-groups-tower-set-for-may-groundbreaking-in-downtown-jacksonville/

QuoteMayor Donna Deegan: Related Group's tower set for May groundbreaking in Downtown Jacksonville
Six years in the making, the South Bank Residences are planned on the site of the demolished River City Brewing Co.

Good. Hopefully we make to groundbreaking before Trump destroys the world.

440 W. Beaver

"Moll said horizontal construction has begun for the proposed 22-story building. Plans for the estimated $145.21 million project include 526 multifamily units and 28,000 square feet of retail space."

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 09, 2026, 11:31:28 AM440 W. Beaver

"Moll said horizontal construction has begun for the proposed 22-story building. Plans for the estimated $145.21 million project include 526 multifamily units and 28,000 square feet of retail space."

What article are you quoting?  I saw this phrase used in an article from a year ago and I believe that project is already a few stories tall at this point.

Today's JDR article about Gateway Jax

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/apr/09/gateway-jax-on-the-rise/

All the way at the bottom of the page

QuoteMoll said Gateway is finalizing a design to reduce Beaver Street to one lane in each direction with a middle turn lane, a landscaped median, bicycle lanes, widened sidewalks and a larger tree canopy, plus raised intersections at prominent locations.

Also from that article. That seems like a major update.

Can someone tomorrow see if n8 site is active with vehicles and equipment.

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on April 08, 2026, 03:38:08 PM@heights unknown  Here the moment you've been waiting for!

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/apr/08/mayor-donna-deegan-related-groups-tower-set-for-may-groundbreaking-in-downtown-jacksonville/

QuoteMayor Donna Deegan: Related Group's tower set for May groundbreaking in Downtown Jacksonville
Six years in the making, the South Bank Residences are planned on the site of the demolished River City Brewing Co.

Ah yeah! Let's go, let's get going; it's about time...and as y'all know, NOT TALL ENOUGH! (JUST PLAYING LOL).

Quote from: Skybox111 on April 10, 2026, 12:50:17 AMCan someone tomorrow see if n8 site is active with vehicles and equipment.

Correct me please if I am wrong; but isn't N8 the 22 story monolith on Beaver and Pearl? I don't think anythings going vertical there yet; someone said "horizontal," in which I don't know what that means...unless it means site prep. Please advise; thanks!

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on April 08, 2026, 03:38:08 PM@heights unknown  Here the moment you've been waiting for!

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/apr/08/mayor-donna-deegan-related-groups-tower-set-for-may-groundbreaking-in-downtown-jacksonville/

QuoteMayor Donna Deegan: Related Group's tower set for May groundbreaking in Downtown Jacksonville
Six years in the making, the South Bank Residences are planned on the site of the demolished River City Brewing Co.

LOL...y'all can say what you want about me, but this I know: "ALL OF YOU ARE CLOSET SKYSCRAPER HEIGHT FREAKS."

Quote from: Skybox111 on April 10, 2026, 12:50:17 AMCan someone tomorrow see if n8 site is active with vehicles and equipment.

I'll try on my way home from work

There's a porta-potty on the site.

https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2026/01/11/South_Bank_Residences_1_t1100.jpeg?31a214c4405663fd4bc7e33e8c8cedcc07d61559

Looks like Riveplace Blvd/ Museum Circle will end at the roundabout, current rendering shows building coming really close to Prudential/Haskell building

Quote from: JaGoaT on April 10, 2026, 11:52:26 AMhttps://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2026/01/11/South_Bank_Residences_1_t1100.jpeg?31a214c4405663fd4bc7e33e8c8cedcc07d61559

Looks like Riveplace Blvd/ Museum Circle will end at the roundabout, current rendering shows building coming really close to Prudential/Haskell building

No, the roads are all staying the same.  The roundabout you see in that rendering is the one at the dead end of San Marco Blvd at the fountain.

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 10, 2026, 10:21:27 AM

Quote from: Skybox111 on April 10, 2026, 12:50:17 AMCan someone tomorrow see if n8 site is active with vehicles and equipment.

I'll try on my way home from work

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 10, 2026, 10:21:27 AM

Quote from: Skybox111 on April 10, 2026, 12:50:17 AMCan someone tomorrow see if n8 site is active with vehicles and equipment.

I'll try on my way home from work

They did some site work a few months about but it's been quiet since.  No equipment or anything on site.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 10, 2026, 10:43:38 AMThere's a porta-potty on the site.

Holy Crap.

There was some light site work this afternoon.

Struggling to get this site going. Hope they really start work on it. 

QuoteGateway Jax's Block N8 cleared for $145 million construction Downtown

The city issued a permit April 14 for Downtown's Gateway Jax Pearl Square development called Block N8 at a project cost of almost $145.21 million.

PCL Construction LLC is the contractor for the project to include short-term rentals, apartments, retail and restaurant space, a gym, parking and more.

Block N8 is at 440 W. Beaver St., bounded clockwise from the north by Beaver, Pearl, Ashley and Clay streets.

Plans specify a 22-story building connected with what appears to be a 13-story building and a three-story structure, totaling 198,181 square feet of space.

The 537 rentals comprise 394 apartments and the 143 short-term units. The latter are designed to attract tenants in town for area business, including education and health care.

"They are short-term rental units, not a hotel as you'd typically think of one," said Gateway Jax CEO Bryan Moll by email in May 2025.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/apr/15/gateway-jaxs-block-n8-cleared-for-145-million-construction-downtown/

So; how long will it take for the permit to get through approved?

Sounds like it was just issued yesterday

Yes, I believe it was submitted or issued yesterday; so now, how long, at an average, will it take to go through or get approved?

The permit is already approved. They got it yesterday.

Quote from: sean27 on April 15, 2026, 02:10:33 PMThe permit is already approved. They got it yesterday.

Thanks. Cranes, cranes, cranes, and more cranes; haven't see that since many minutes.

I think it would be cool if the forum had another photo update on current construction. Some of our out-of-town folks might be pleasantly surprised. I can snag some photos soon and post if there isn't already one in the pipeline.

Quote from: heights unknown on April 15, 2026, 02:21:09 PM

Quote from: sean27 on April 15, 2026, 02:10:33 PMThe permit is already approved. They got it yesterday.

Thanks. Cranes, cranes, cranes, and more cranes; haven't see that since many minutes.

Have you been east of Hogan's Creek?  At one point there were 3 tower cranes for Four Seasons and the office building, plus 6 more cranes at the stadium....

I want to see Cranes for Gateway N8 (Mixed Use Development/Hotel), cranes for Gateway N6 (Publix/Mixed Use Development), Cranes for Laura Street Trio, Cranes for the new skyscraper on the east pad at Riverfront Plaza (Gateway), Cranes for Related Group Development Tower on Southbank, Cranes for the Fleet Landing Senior Residential Tower. The cranes for the Four Seasons and the Stadium is Khan's cranes; but IMO when we see cranes in the Urban Core, North and Southbank, IMO THAT'S progress!
 ;D

Quote from: heights unknown on April 15, 2026, 04:15:21 PMI want to see Cranes for Gateway N8 (Mixed Use Development/Hotel), cranes for Gateway N6 (Publix/Mixed Use Development), Cranes for Laura Street Trio, Cranes for the new skyscraper on the east pad at Riverfront Plaza (Gateway), Cranes for Related Group Development Tower on Southbank, Cranes for the Fleet Landing Senior Residential Tower. The cranes for the Four Seasons and the Stadium is Khan's cranes; but IMO when we see cranes in the Urban Core, North and Southbank, IMO THAT'S progress!
 ;D

Wow.  That's some blatant crane-discrimination. #AllCranesMatter.

Here are some on this site:

https://www.jacksonville.gov/mayor/initiatives/i-dig-jax

Sorry son't know how to make it a link.

Some equipment by related tower site. Not sure if it is to tear down mosh.

In regards to Gateway/Pearl Street, It appears that N6, N7, and N8 will all be rising at the same time, with CRANES in the air for each. N6 will be the shortest and will top out first, followed by N7, and then N8. Man, all of this activity is making me dizzy and giving me a headache; where's the smelling sauce? Still not tall enough though; that's coming and will be revealed very soon right on the riverfront; think I'm joking? Watch! And no, I don't have proof; just got that feeling. I smell "tall and slender" in the air, rivaling Independent Square building, and standing tall with #1 (BOA) and of course #2 Independent Square. It's a little way off, but not too far away. Just stand by and have the faith.

I dunno;  :o Just call me CRANEZY.

I wish they would add more height for n6 maybe add residential on top of it and n10 would have twin towers and not 7 to 10 story buildings also maybe a tower next to ambassador and some towers next to the rosa parks station give us more height like Tampa's water street. Also wish n7 would have had twin towers on that site like they did  for tampa's publix.

Don't want to take away from this thread because it's something I deeply care about -the success of DT. Im invested in it - I live fairly close 15 min bike ride and work DT. 

I hate talking politics, party affiliation I can care less. What I do care about is the message, and I think Ron is gaining a lot of followers and I fear that he will undo all the great work that's in there process of turning this city around. His message is to take Jacksonville back to the ice age!

Forget our current trajectory under his leadership. No draft or Super Bowl in the foreseeable future.

Quote from: heights unknown on April 16, 2026, 08:48:21 PMIn regards to Gateway/Pearl Street, It appears that N6, N7, and N8 will all be rising at the same time, with CRANES in the air for each. N6 will be the shortest and will top out first, followed by N7, and then N8. Man, all of this activity is making me dizzy and giving me a headache; where's the smelling sauce? Still not tall enough though; that's coming and will be revealed very soon right on the riverfront; think I'm joking? Watch! And no, I don't have proof; just got that feeling. I smell "tall and slender" in the air, rivaling Independent Square building, and standing tall with #1 (BOA) and of course #2 Independent Square. It's a little way off, but not too far away. Just stand by and have the faith.

I believe you're confusing Block N6 with one of the other projects. N6 is the parking garage between Julia and Hogan Street and will not need a crane as they are simply adding a strip of retail along Beaver Street

Ron Salem? Really? He would get wiped.

Would like to see n9 have residential sitting on top of the office and two towers next to ambassador garage and the building next to the hotel that will be demolished also n2 with towers

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 17, 2026, 08:28:21 PMRon Salem? Really? He would get wiped.

Ron Armstrong

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on April 17, 2026, 09:02:47 PM

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 17, 2026, 08:28:21 PMRon Salem? Really? He would get wiped.

Ron Armstrong

Probably worth a separate thread if we're talking mayoral elections. He's doing very well as a relative nobody with the, "I'm just asking questions..." gambit but if he gains real traction, he'll have to prove he has a real agenda and real leadership capability versus just being contrarian. Otherwise he's more of a Rory Diamond figure.

Relevant to this thread, it's clear he's against downtown incentives and the not-so-subtle suggestion is that our citywide infrastructure is crumbling and needs to be maintained and fixed before we do ANYTHING new ANYWHERE. While there's an element of truth to that, to suggest we can't fix what's neglected while also pursuing growth is nonsense. In fact Deegan has done a great job, with boring stuff like city mowing crews keeping right-of-ways far more maintained, all while negotiating big-ticket downtown items. And I'm not even a Democrat.

^ If Salem & Co. really wanted to address "crumbling citywide infrastructure" they would stop cutting back the millage rate.  All they really want is votes for lowering taxes - service levels and City investment be damned.  many of the people who support their campaigns live in Nassau, St. Johns, Clay or elsewhere and could care less about Duval infrastructure.  What they do care about is riding on the back of Duval taxpayers to enrich their businesses and personal pocketbooks. 

Who mostly pays for the stadium, arena, baseball grounds, airport, riverfront parks and other regional amenities vs. who benefits from them?  Would be interesting to see where the developers who get City incentives live.  In Duval or elsewhere?  They fund campaigns to get Duval benefits but don't hang around for the consequences.

We should maybe have a policy that City benefits first go to those who live in Duval.  Just like beach communities giving free access to their beaches to their residents and charging everyone else.

Quote from: Zac T on April 17, 2026, 06:55:01 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on April 16, 2026, 08:48:21 PMIn regards to Gateway/Pearl Street, It appears that N6, N7, and N8 will all be rising at the same time, with CRANES in the air for each. N6 will be the shortest and will top out first, followed by N7, and then N8. Man, all of this activity is making me dizzy and giving me a headache; where's the smelling sauce? Still not tall enough though; that's coming and will be revealed very soon right on the riverfront; think I'm joking? Watch! And no, I don't have proof; just got that feeling. I smell "tall and slender" in the air, rivaling Independent Square building, and standing tall with #1 (BOA) and of course #2 Independent Square. It's a little way off, but not too far away. Just stand by and have the faith.

I believe you're confusing Block N6 with one of the other projects. N6 is the parking garage between Julia and Hogan Street and will not need a crane as they are simply adding a strip of retail along Beaver Street

My Bad; you're correct (I think); I'll look into it.

Quote from: heights unknown on April 18, 2026, 07:59:40 AM

Quote from: Zac T on April 17, 2026, 06:55:01 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on April 16, 2026, 08:48:21 PMIn regards to Gateway/Pearl Street, It appears that N6, N7, and N8 will all be rising at the same time, with CRANES in the air for each. N6 will be the shortest and will top out first, followed by N7, and then N8. Man, all of this activity is making me dizzy and giving me a headache; where's the smelling sauce? Still not tall enough though; that's coming and will be revealed very soon right on the riverfront; think I'm joking? Watch! And no, I don't have proof; just got that feeling. I smell "tall and slender" in the air, rivaling Independent Square building, and standing tall with #1 (BOA) and of course #2 Independent Square. It's a little way off, but not too far away. Just stand by and have the faith. FYI, here is the latest conceptual placing/rendering of the Pearl District (latest); enjoy. https://dtjax.com/poi/pearl-square/

I believe you're confusing Block N6 with one of the other projects. N6 is the parking garage between Julia and Hogan Street and will not need a crane as they are simply adding a strip of retail along Beaver Street

My Bad; you're correct (I think); I'll look into it.

You were right Zac; N6 is the Parking Garage. So I believe, and y'all correct me, N9, N8 and N7 will possibly have cranes (though N9 will be short in height so a crane may not be needed). At any rate, in the future, there will be cranes possibly all around that area as they vacuum suck more properties and they are developed. I could be wrong and this is a hunch, but I believe that Bryan Moll/Gateway will at some point in the future buy out City Place Apartments (formerly St. Johns Apartments...to me it just doesn't fit in the way it now is, and, when I was young, I had friends that lived there and the apartments were "Munchkin small"), probably tear it down OR give it a major renovation. If they tear it down, look for a signature skyscraper (high-rise or tall) in its place (we can dream can't we?).

FYI, here is the latest conceptual placing/rendering of the Pearl District (latest); enjoy. https://dtjax.com/poi/pearl-square/

Looks nice. Looks like the two towers they mentioned will be about ten stories(ish). I wonder what is going on with the Corner Lot rehab? There has never been movement on this.

Don't know maybe the project fell through and with riverside as well didn't see any rendering for their headquarters for that hotel and maybe why they are moving on to bay street. Found out also that live oak development in downtown fort pierce had defaulted after missing a critical milestone and had faced years of delays since it's inception in 2019 something to watch out for.

Quote from: Skybox111 on April 19, 2026, 12:24:52 PMDon't know maybe the project fell through and with riverside as well didn't see any rendering for their headquarters for that hotel and maybe why they are moving on to bay street. Found out also that live oak development in downtown fort pierce had defaulted after missing a critical milestone and had faced years of delays since it's inception in 2019 something to watch out for.

Aren't they running/directing development of the old JEA Headquarters on Church Street? THAT is bad news about Fort Pierce and the City/DIA really need to keep tabs on that development (Old JEA Building). There is NO activity at that site and hasn't been for some years now; I think 2023 (early) is when I last seen workers doing something, anything in and around that building (Old JEA). I know Gateway has its hands full, but I wish they would take that over (old JEA) once they get the Pearl District fully humming and running.

Which "Old JEA Building"? The one that used to be Independent Life, at Duval and Julia, or the one that used to be the Universal Marion Building, at Church and Main?

No, the old JEA Building that was originally and historically the "Independent Life" Building. The 19 story one adjacent to the old Ambassador Hotel Building.

[/quote]
Aren't they running/directing development of the old JEA Headquarters on Church Street? THAT is bad news about Fort Pierce and the City/DIA really need to keep tabs on that development (Old JEA Building). There is NO activity at that site and hasn't been for some years now; I think 2023 (early) is when I last seen workers doing something, anything in and around that building (Old JEA). I know Gateway has its hands full, but I wish they would take that over (old JEA) once they get the Pearl District fully humming and running.
[/quote]



Yes the old jea building and they were the ones going to buy the laura trio but pulled out.

Quote from: heights unknown on April 18, 2026, 07:18:52 PMFYI, here is the latest conceptual placing/rendering of the Pearl District (latest); enjoy. https://dtjax.com/poi/pearl-square/

I think this gives you a better picture of what to expect on the ground level - specifically pg 5.

https://www.655pearl.com/uploads/1/5/4/9/154961106/pearl_square_brochure_2026_web.pdf

(https://i.postimg.cc/TYyzVY2p/IMG-1058.jpg)

Quote from: heights unknown on April 19, 2026, 04:04:11 PMNo, the old JEA Building that was originally and historically the "Independent Life" Building. The 19 story one adjacent to the old Ambassador Hotel Building.

That was Augustine Development. Live Oak submitted the recent bid for the Universal Marion Building at Church and Main. Different JEA towers

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on April 19, 2026, 10:17:26 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on April 18, 2026, 07:18:52 PMFYI, here is the latest conceptual placing/rendering of the Pearl District (latest); enjoy. https://dtjax.com/poi/pearl-square/

I think this gives you a better picture of what to expect on the ground level - specifically pg 5.

https://www.655pearl.com/uploads/1/5/4/9/154961106/pearl_square_brochure_2026_web.pdf

(https://i.postimg.cc/TYyzVY2p/IMG-1058.jpg)

The one thing that excites me the most about Pearl Square and subsequent Gateway Jax developments is the long needed addition of shopping destinations Downtown. Publix is huge (especially the pharmacy) but basic things like clothing stores, electronic stores like AT&T, dry cleaners, etc are all pivotal pieces that would help make Downtown a much more livable neighborhood for residents

Quote from: heights unknown on April 18, 2026, 07:18:52 PMFYI, here is the latest conceptual placing/rendering of the Pearl District (latest); enjoy. https://dtjax.com/poi/pearl-square/

In that image there is a building shown next to the Rosa Parks station (just North of N7). Is there information out on this building from Gateway, or is it basically there to make the rendering look better?

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on April 19, 2026, 10:17:26 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on April 18, 2026, 07:18:52 PMFYI, here is the latest conceptual placing/rendering of the Pearl District (latest); enjoy. https://dtjax.com/poi/pearl-square/

I think this gives you a better picture of what to expect on the ground level - specifically pg 5.

https://www.655pearl.com/uploads/1/5/4/9/154961106/pearl_square_brochure_2026_web.pdf

(https://i.postimg.cc/TYyzVY2p/IMG-1058.jpg)

Awesome; great stuff; ooh I love it.

Quote from: Zac T on April 20, 2026, 12:07:38 AM

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on April 19, 2026, 10:17:26 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on April 18, 2026, 07:18:52 PMFYI, here is the latest conceptual placing/rendering of the Pearl District (latest); enjoy. https://dtjax.com/poi/pearl-square/

I think this gives you a better picture of what to expect on the ground level - specifically pg 5.

https://www.655pearl.com/uploads/1/5/4/9/154961106/pearl_square_brochure_2026_web.pdf

(https://i.postimg.cc/TYyzVY2p/IMG-1058.jpg)

The one thing that excites me the most about Pearl Square and subsequent Gateway Jax developments is the long needed addition of shopping destinations Downtown. Publix is huge (especially the pharmacy) but basic things like clothing stores, electronic stores like AT&T, dry cleaners, etc are all pivotal pieces that would help make Downtown a much more livable neighborhood for residents

IMO it has to be that way, all of the amenities needed to make the Neighborhood liveable, or else no one will want to live there, or, if they live there and don't have those amenities, people/residents will start to leave and/or relocate elsewhere in droves. And don't forget gas stations. IMO, very very soon Downtown will be more than ripe and ready for a Wawa, and IMO, 2 Wawa's, at some point, once all of this residential placement stuff finally smooths and irons itself out.

Quote from: heights unknown on April 20, 2026, 12:53:19 PM

Quote from: Zac T on April 20, 2026, 12:07:38 AM

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on April 19, 2026, 10:17:26 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on April 18, 2026, 07:18:52 PMFYI, here is the latest conceptual placing/rendering of the Pearl District (latest); enjoy. https://dtjax.com/poi/pearl-square/

I think this gives you a better picture of what to expect on the ground level - specifically pg 5.

https://www.655pearl.com/uploads/1/5/4/9/154961106/pearl_square_brochure_2026_web.pdf

(https://i.postimg.cc/TYyzVY2p/IMG-1058.jpg)

The one thing that excites me the most about Pearl Square and subsequent Gateway Jax developments is the long needed addition of shopping destinations Downtown. Publix is huge (especially the pharmacy) but basic things like clothing stores, electronic stores like AT&T, dry cleaners, etc are all pivotal pieces that would help make Downtown a much more livable neighborhood for residents

IMO it has to be that way, all of the amenities needed to make the Neighborhood liveable, or else no one will want to live there, or, if they live there and don't have those amenities, people/residents will start to leave and/or relocate elsewhere in droves. And don't forget gas stations. IMO, very very soon Downtown will be more than ripe and ready for a Wawa, and IMO, 2 Wawa's, at some point, once all of this residential placement stuff finally smooths and irons itself out.

Would love to see DT get to a point that it can support something similar to the Wawa on University Ave in Gainesville

(https://i.postimg.cc/4xGTdz6m/Wawa-Gainesville.png)

Quote from: Nmhatt on April 20, 2026, 08:02:53 AM

Quote from: heights unknown on April 18, 2026, 07:18:52 PMFYI, here is the latest conceptual placing/rendering of the Pearl District (latest); enjoy. https://dtjax.com/poi/pearl-square/

In that image there is a building shown next to the Rosa Parks station (just North of N7). Is there information out on this building from Gateway, or is it basically there to make the rendering look better?

From the recent Daily Record article

QuoteGateway Jax is performing due diligence on a ground lease with the Jacksonville Transportation Authority for property east of the Rosa Parks Transit Station where the developers plan a multifamily building with workforce housing.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/apr/09/gateway-jax-on-the-rise/

Ambassador Garage is going vertical, not sure if I missed it in here or if they just starting putting it up in the last couple of days.

Get an urban Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, Costco, BJ's, or Sams and you know you have it made  ;D .

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 21, 2026, 12:04:37 AMGet an urban Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, Costco, BJ's, or Sams and you know you have it made  ;D .

I wholeheartedly agree. That vacant spot of land in Springfield, on 8th and Hubbard I believe (where there used to be a grocery store), or, someplace in LaVilla in the Beaver and Davis area going west near I-95, these would be great. I don't think they would have to be overly big/giant either. There are other areas east of Main Street going towards the stadium (north of Stadium) that could be good as well. I don't think it's time yet for these, but if downtown gets a population, say in the 12,000 plus range, you really need to be thinking about luring some of these to the Urban Core area or periphery.

It is truly amazing to me the level of investment being made in the North core by Gateway JAX. To say they have been a savior of DT JAX would be an understatement. They are building a massive number of apartments in a virtually brand new market. 100,000 SF of new office space when the vacancy rate is so high and lease rates so low is also pioneering. Albeit 100k isn't a vast amount.

So many projects have died on the vine in this very same area, yet they are not even completing one project before launching several others.

I suppose the incentives and cheap structured parking make it all work. First Baptist scaling back their campus might be the best catalyst for DT ever.   

Quote from: vicupstate on April 22, 2026, 09:41:42 AMIt is truly amazing to me the level of investment being made in the North core by Gateway JAX. To say they have been a savior of DT JAX would be an understatement. They are building a massive number of apartments in a virtually brand new market. 100,000 SF of new office space when the vacancy rate is so high and lease rates so low is also pioneering. Albeit 100k isn't a vast amount.

So many projects have died on the vine in this very same area, yet they are not even completing one project before launching several others.

I suppose the incentives and cheap structured parking make it all work. First Baptist scaling back their campus might be the best catalyst for DT ever. 

IRT First Baptist, the "scaling back" was inevitable (I think). They had inner tubes around their neck gasping for air and had to sell some of those properties; just as you said, a good thing I think. I believe that Developers nationwide are watching what Moll/Gateway have done (Tampa, Washington D.C.), and are doing now in Jax. The Moll/Gateway model, I believe, might soon catch cold and be dispersed nationwide. A super model to follow for cities such as say: New Orleans, Norfolk, Cleveland, Detroit, Little Rock, Oklahoma City, Birmingham, St. Louis, Tulsa, etc. (and more); cities whose downtowns are in the tank and needs Moll's/Gateway's model to bring them back to life. I too am mesmerized, especially of late of what Moll/Gateway has done, and last year when they were bringing all of these to life out of the renderings, I couldn't help but wonder why those other Developers, over the decades and years, couldn't do the same thing; however, Jax had a lot to do with the past failures as well. There just wasn't the right people in City Government, and/or the right Developers that were truly willing to take that chance on Jax, and if they did, they used us, made promises, and then left us disappointed. My hat(s) off to Moll and Company!!!

^You're witnessing how a team that's done real development at a much larger scale nationally, does their work, compared to a traditional list of entities that have not (e.g. we have a local tradition of a lot of pie-in-the-sky stuff being proposed by novices, which leads to disappointment when they fail to come to fruition). Throw in getting those FBC garages, securing contiguous urban properties at a reduced price (e.g. compared to similar settings in other cities) plus COJ incentives and the proformas start working. You're now watching the 3C's we've long advocated for here, play out in real life. Sit back and enjoy the show.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 22, 2026, 05:28:12 PM^You're witnessing how a team that's done real development at a much larger scale nationally, does their work, compared to a traditional list of entities that have not (e.g. we have a local tradition of a lot of pie-in-the-sky stuff being proposed by novices, which leads to disappointment when they fail to come to fruition). Throw in getting those FBC garages, securing contiguous urban properties at a reduced price (e.g. compared to similar settings in other cities) plus COJ incentives and the proformas start working. You're now watching the 3C's we've long advocated for here, play out in real life. Sit back and enjoy the show.

Amen. Believe me I am (where's the popcorn?). It can only get better and Gateway has barely started from what I can decipher. Now if we can hold the Russkies and the Chinese at bay, maybe we'll finally get somewhere. Lastly, what Gateway is doing is more than 1 or 2 building developments, what they're doing is "en masse" so to speak, conglomerated developments at a time with retail, restaurants/dining, residential, etc. and more. Aside from me being a height freak, I LOVE THIS!

Ditto all the accolades.  My concern is that without the rest of Downtown following along and connecting, Gateway won't reach its full potential. 

Wasting hundreds of millions on the stupid U2C while not building a robust inner core bus network is just one example of the City continuing to go off in crazy directions that lead to nothing but failure.  Add the crazy amount of waterfront development incentives instead of plowing those dollars in to upgrading streetscapes, green spaces and interactive street facings and other amenities that urban dwellers crave, and you have another misdirection of investment.

By now, there are so many successful examples of City planning in this country and around the world, big cities and small towns, I just don't get why we are still dragging our feet through mud.  Are things better than under Curry? Absolutely.  But, we have much further to go to be assured of a successful downtown and I worry too many "details" are still being overlooked.  Just compare Gateway's detailing within its scope to that of the City's elsewhere.  Day and night.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 22, 2026, 05:28:12 PM^You're witnessing how a team that's done real development at a much larger scale nationally, does their work, compared to a traditional list of entities that have not (e.g. we have a local tradition of a lot of pie-in-the-sky stuff being proposed by novices, which leads to disappointment when they fail to come to fruition). Throw in getting those FBC garages, securing contiguous urban properties at a reduced price (e.g. compared to similar settings in other cities) plus COJ incentives and the proformas start working. You're now watching the 3C's we've long advocated for here, play out in real life. Sit back and enjoy the show.

As we've always said, none of this is rocket science. There's nothing intrinsic to Jacksonville holding us back, except inertia and bad leadership. Get some better leadership and break through the inertia a bit, and Jacksonville is able to pull off things any city of this size -- and many much larger -- would kill for.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 22, 2026, 09:37:21 PMDitto all the accolades.  My concern is that without the rest of Downtown following along and connecting, Gateway won't reach its full potential. 

Wasting hundreds of millions on the stupid U2C while not building a robust inner core bus network is just one example of the City continuing to go off in crazy directions that lead to nothing but failure.  Add the crazy amount of waterfront development incentives instead of plowing those dollars in to upgrading streetscapes, green spaces and interactive street facings and other amenities that urban dwellers crave, and you have another misdirection of investment.

By now, there are so many successful examples of City planning in this country and around the world, big cities and small towns, I just don't get why we are still dragging our feet through mud.  Are things better than under Curry? Absolutely.  But, we have much further to go to be assured of a successful downtown and I worry too many "details" are still being overlooked.  Just compare Gateway's detailing within its scope to that of the City's elsewhere.  Day and night.

What Gateway's able to do comes down to assembling contiguous properties and working with the city on things like planning and urban design. It's not happening in isolation. Elsewhere in Downtown (and other areas) we're also plowing through improvements that were held back for years with things like the two-way street conversions, context sensitive streets and actually funding and building the parks. We still have a long way to go, especially as we were starting off in a worse place than we'd been 10 years before. But in just a few years we've got more going than there's been since the Better Jacksonville Plan. That's nothing to dismiss.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 22, 2026, 09:37:21 PMDitto all the accolades.  My concern is that without the rest of Downtown following along and connecting, Gateway won't reach its full potential. 

Wasting hundreds of millions on the stupid U2C while not building a robust inner core bus network is just one example of the City continuing to go off in crazy directions that lead to nothing but failure.  Add the crazy amount of waterfront development incentives instead of plowing those dollars in to upgrading streetscapes, green spaces and interactive street facings and other amenities that urban dwellers crave, and you have another misdirection of investment.

JTA's inability to fight against implementing common sense solutions for the greater good is a concern, but Gateway's work isn't the only thing happening in the Northbank. There's a lot more in the works with other development parties and initiatives that will complement their investment. However, I do see the need to make sure we continue taking steps forward and not doing something dump, that blows a lot of public resources, making us take a few steps back again.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2026, 01:31:45 AM

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 22, 2026, 09:37:21 PMDitto all the accolades.  My concern is that without the rest of Downtown following along and connecting, Gateway won't reach its full potential. 

Wasting hundreds of millions on the stupid U2C while not building a robust inner core bus network is just one example of the City continuing to go off in crazy directions that lead to nothing but failure.  Add the crazy amount of waterfront development incentives instead of plowing those dollars in to upgrading streetscapes, green spaces and interactive street facings and other amenities that urban dwellers crave, and you have another misdirection of investment.

JTA's inability to fight against implementing common sense solutions for the greater good is a concern, but Gateway's work isn't the only thing happening in the Northbank. There's a lot more in the works with other development parties and initiatives that will complement their investment. However, I do see the need to make sure we continue taking steps forward and not doing something dump, that blows a lot of public resources, making us take a few steps back again.

I was watching a "video interview"  with Bryan Moll that was done a few weeks ago, and the interviewer was showering him with accolades, and he was quick to not take all of the "pats on the back," he wasn't exact or detailed but he alluded to the fact (hinted) that there was more that was happening and that would happen in the future to complement what he and Gateway are doing. So there are things happening, behind the scenes I think, that we at present are unaware of. Lake knows more than we do, but I would guess there might be some surprises in the offing; things that have not been shown or announced but when the cake is done, it will be out of the oven in the form of a big surprise or even surprises (just hoping and hunching my shoulders LOL).

The fact that city council may not be on board with giving a few million dollars of incentives to redevelop and activate a prominent corner of Downtown across from JWJ and Library, but give away much larger amounts for projects on the outskirts of Downtown, is frustrating.

Did anyone ever figure out what happened with the Pearl? One of the stranger stories of the year. The RiversEdge public parks were built around a centerpiece art installation. The city and developer were obligated under the incentives agreement to co-fund the sculpture. It was permitted. And then it just totally disappeared into thin air. I feel like there's gotta be a story there. 

Quote from: fsu813 on April 24, 2026, 09:40:57 AMThe fact that city council may not be on board with giving a few million dollars of incentives to redevelop and activate a prominent corner of Downtown across from JWJ and Library, but give away much larger amounts for projects on the outskirts of Downtown, is frustrating.

The amount of homeless that congregate on that specific corner every day is a black eye on DT and definitely a deterrent for visitors looking to go to Chamblins, the library, MOCA, etc. It seems to be getting worse every week. Renovating those buildings and activating that corner should be a big priority for the city

Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 28, 2026, 10:48:56 AMDid anyone ever figure out what happened with the Pearl? One of the stranger stories of the year. The RiversEdge public parks were built around a centerpiece art installation. The city and developer were obligated under the incentives agreement to co-fund the sculpture. It was permitted. And then it just totally disappeared into thin air. I feel like there's gotta be a story there. 

Great question.  It would be very Jacksonville if that part disappears. 

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/apr/28/jacksonville-city-council-oks-353-million-in-loans-for-downtown-revitalization-projects/

QuoteOn April 28, Council approved a combined $3.53 million in largely forgivable loans for renovations of the former Mag's Cafe property at 231 N. Laura St. and for the adjacent property at 38 W. Monroe St...
The approval came one week after Council committees were split over the loans, with the Finance Committee voting 5-1 to recommend approval and the Neighborhoods, Community Services, Public Health and Safety Committee voting 4-3 against it.

Well there you go

Curious what the read is on the progress of Springfield?

Grabbed lunch at Crispy's today and noticed quite a few more empty storefronts on Main than I saw the last time I came down this way (it's been a minute).

Same commercial rent pressure as everywhere else, or something else?

That sculpture that I complained about in front of MOCA, clogging the sidewalk? I think I love it now  :o I walk by it each day and just look up at it all, "Now that's a great piece of public art." I sent my Mom a picture of it with the subject line, "Check out this sculpture!" Still in a strange spot, but I'm glad she's there.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 30, 2026, 01:16:06 PMCurious what the read is on the progress of Springfield?

Grabbed lunch at Crispy's today and noticed quite a few more empty storefronts on Main than I saw the last time I came down this way (it's been a minute).

Same commercial rent pressure as everywhere else, or something else?

I believe there have been 3 closures along Main in the past ~6 months: Social Grounds Coffee, which closed due a dispute with the landlord that's been documented in media, an odd clothing/cafe space next to The Block, which never paid rent, and a hair salon on W.8th near Main where the owner had personal life issues.

During that same ~6 months , a cigar bar opened on W. 8th near Main St, a plant store opened on W.7th near Main, a vape shop opened on Main, a bagel shop opened on Main, a barber shop opened on Main, an animal clinic opened on Main (with an adjacent dog-friendly bar + outdoor play area being developed now). Karpeles Grand opened a couple blocks away from Main.

Dance Trance also announced a location on Main, next to Juice. Naked Kitchen has their soft opening at PHX, a few blocks away from Main, on May 20th.

In general, Main Street just a very long commercial district compared to 5 Points, San Marco Sq, Edgewood Ave, Park & King, or Shoppes of Avondale. If all the businesses in Springfield were clustered to a contiguous 6 block area, similar to those other successful historic commercial districts, it would feel similarly vibrant and full. But there's a lot more space to fill, which as you mentioned, has the same market pressures as anywhere else.

Prior to the multifamily new build market slumping, I think we were planning to see numerous new multifamily developments along Main and 8th to provide density and fill many of those gaps. I expect we'll see that again when the market conditions turn again. The single family housing market is relatively healthy in Springfield.

The new Multi-family development Main & 8th or whatever it's called is really cool. They did a good job on design and I love that it sort of marks a stake in the ground of where "springfield" commercial district begins. I think it's gonna be really popular.

Any idea why DVI randomly decided to cancel Sip and Stroll through September? Feels like a popular event that always draws good foot traffic for local businesses. The DIA pushed through open container regulations for it. We finally have the riverfront parks open. Perfect time of year with schools out and daylight until 8:00 pm. Very hard to build momentum with start and stop on these things.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/may/14/downtown-vision-incs-sip-stroll-event-to-go-on-summer-break/

Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 14, 2026, 12:44:46 PMAny idea why DVI randomly decided to cancel Sip and Stroll through September? Feels like a popular event that always draws good foot traffic for local businesses. The DIA pushed through open container regulations for it. We finally have the riverfront parks open. Perfect time of year with schools out and daylight until 8:00 pm. Very hard to build momentum with start and stop on these things.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/may/14/downtown-vision-incs-sip-stroll-event-to-go-on-summer-break/

They've done this the past 2 years as well. Severe weather + extreme heat made it difficult to continue in the summer months and turnout wasn't always great so they decided to focus on fall, winter, and spring when the weather is more cooperative

Quote from: Jankelope on May 14, 2026, 09:16:41 AMThe new Multi-family development Main & 8th or whatever it's called is really cool. They did a good job on design and I love that it sort of marks a stake in the ground of where "springfield" commercial district begins. I think it's gonna be really popular.

What new 8th and Main project?

Sorry Corner on Main. Not 8th and Main. The big multi-family project.

Quote from: Zac T on May 14, 2026, 01:16:41 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 14, 2026, 12:44:46 PMAny idea why DVI randomly decided to cancel Sip and Stroll through September? Feels like a popular event that always draws good foot traffic for local businesses. The DIA pushed through open container regulations for it. We finally have the riverfront parks open. Perfect time of year with schools out and daylight until 8:00 pm. Very hard to build momentum with start and stop on these things.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/may/14/downtown-vision-incs-sip-stroll-event-to-go-on-summer-break/

They've done this the past 2 years as well. Severe weather + extreme heat made it difficult to continue in the summer months and turnout wasn't always great so they decided to focus on fall, winter, and spring when the weather is more cooperative

I feel like some of the design firms that have created our public spaces still think of shade as secondary or optional. Shade is pretty much *required* for any outdoor public space to be easily used 33% of the year.

Quote from: fsu813 on May 14, 2026, 06:59:33 PM

Quote from: Zac T on May 14, 2026, 01:16:41 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 14, 2026, 12:44:46 PMAny idea why DVI randomly decided to cancel Sip and Stroll through September? Feels like a popular event that always draws good foot traffic for local businesses. The DIA pushed through open container regulations for it. We finally have the riverfront parks open. Perfect time of year with schools out and daylight until 8:00 pm. Very hard to build momentum with start and stop on these things.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/may/14/downtown-vision-incs-sip-stroll-event-to-go-on-summer-break/

They've done this the past 2 years as well. Severe weather + extreme heat made it difficult to continue in the summer months and turnout wasn't always great so they decided to focus on fall, winter, and spring when the weather is more cooperative

I feel like some of the design firms that have created our public spaces still think of shade as secondary or optional. Shade is pretty much *required* for any outdoor public space to be easily used 33% of the year.

I feel like that number is creeping up to 40%

Good news for a big one:

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2026/05/19/pearl-square-update-may-2026.html

Demo expected on the Gateway Jax Publix site next month.

Quote from: Jankelope on May 19, 2026, 10:39:42 AM

Quote from: fsu813 on May 14, 2026, 06:59:33 PM

Quote from: Zac T on May 14, 2026, 01:16:41 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 14, 2026, 12:44:46 PMAny idea why DVI randomly decided to cancel Sip and Stroll through September? Feels like a popular event that always draws good foot traffic for local businesses. The DIA pushed through open container regulations for it. We finally have the riverfront parks open. Perfect time of year with schools out and daylight until 8:00 pm. Very hard to build momentum with start and stop on these things.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/may/14/downtown-vision-incs-sip-stroll-event-to-go-on-summer-break/

They've done this the past 2 years as well. Severe weather + extreme heat made it difficult to continue in the summer months and turnout wasn't always great so they decided to focus on fall, winter, and spring when the weather is more cooperative

I feel like some of the design firms that have created our public spaces still think of shade as secondary or optional. Shade is pretty much *required* for any outdoor public space to be easily used 33% of the year.

I feel like that number is creeping up to 40%

I was understating it, lol.

Quote from: Steve on May 19, 2026, 12:08:00 PMGood news for a big one:

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2026/05/19/pearl-square-update-may-2026.html

Demo expected on the Gateway Jax Publix site next month.

Timely follow through is the antidote to pessimism and cynicism. Bravo.

it is kind of crazy to me because Gateway, although probably really great at what they do...is just what a normal developer should be doing.

When a developer ACTUALLY wants to build something in order to make money, they move heaven and earth to make it happen on time, or even ahead of schedule. And we have such a shortage of that kind of developer.

I am so grateful for their "get up and go" which has "got up and went" for many of our other developers.

So i was right gateway jax wants to start construction of riverfront tower at end of 2027 when maybe by time when phase 2 finishes and is talking with three hotel groups seeking to be tenants and he said demo of auditorium will start in june when he said back then that demo would start in april or may now pushed to june and that they are still discussing a incentive for it so it sounds like construction maybe end of this year to next year. N8 tower still looked like it hasn't done anything and struggling with it so related group is the clear winner of starting construction of a high rise. So all three of those buildings won't be done till 2029 to maybe 2030.

^ I've been tracking the permit. It's not quite yet approved. Interesting that they'll be shovels in the ground. 
So let the race begin? Though I'm betting on Related tu finish first. Experienced in high rise in major markets, more prominent location. Both designs are mediocre, but better than nothing.

Would be interested to see if Related knock out both simultaneously of in a phased approach. Podium structure first to get leasing going then tower while podium is halfway or topped. Considering what GWJ has done, topping takes 5-8 months?

Related Permit Status (https://jaxepics.coj.net/Permit/View/421a00)

2029-2030 is the really exciting moment when you have new towers, new attractions, the Riverfront Parks done, food halls, riverfront dining, New Stadium, Four Seasons, Laura Street Trio (maybe), Gateway Jax all kicking.

^
^ yep can't wait for that topping out moment with related and seeing more cranes at a high point in the sky.

^ will be a great moment in time for us. Just imagine if we had all of the projects under construction in this year or next year 22 story tower, publix and tower, riverfront plaza tower, related tower, culinary hotel, baptist hotel, fleet landing tower or towers, and if balanky had bought dcps site and also started building twin towers there we would see 9 to 10 good height cranes.

Yes, I am also excited to see our skyline change for once!


This is a great time to be in downtown Jax!

If the stars align we may have four residential towers going up at once downtown (Related, Fleet Landing, Gateway N8 and Publix).  That would be something.

^If that happens, we'd begin to look a little more like Florida's other major downtown right now.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 21, 2026, 09:03:58 AM^If that happens, we'd begin to look a little more like Florida's other major downtown right now.

Gainesville?

Lol, I'd say the metros of +1 million.

First segments of the new roof support structure are starting to go up.

(https://snipboard.io/AcxVEJ.jpg)

Might be for the roof longterm, but I'm guessing those are for the lights.

They were removed in early construction and now rest on 400 sections on pallets.

Live Cam of EverBank Stadium (https://www.jaguars.com/stadiumofthefuture/livecam)

Happened to go to the pano, and the workers were attaching it to the crane.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BvKKbsNw/IMG-1384.png)

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on June 16, 2026, 12:57:03 PMMight be for the roof longterm, but I'm guessing those are for the lights.

They were removed in early construction and now rest on 400 sections on pallets.

Live Cam of EverBank Stadium (https://www.jaguars.com/stadiumofthefuture/livecam)

Happened to go to the pano, and the workers were attaching it to the crane.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BvKKbsNw/IMG-1384.png)

Yep! Looking at all photos, I think you're right! Lights, not roof.

I drive by the stadium about once a week. I honestly don't know how they are going to play games there this fall. The playoff game was a logistical nightmare. I can't imagine how bad this season will be.

Yep. Need lights for MNF against the Steelers

Those are for the roof (and lights eventually).  See where the lights are now.  Thats where they will be for this season.

Looking at this, Jun 17 at 8:03am they are testing the lights sitting at the bottom of the 400 level.
Panorama (https://share.earthcam.net/tJ90CoLmq7TzrY396Yd88FXRdqnl2E_hRnTePevFrzI.tJ90CoLmq7TzrY396Yd88Ozh_sI-uA4OSFl5tymLFSs__/jacksonville_jaguars/camera_1/panorama)

Quote from: Lostwave on June 17, 2026, 10:17:25 AMThose are for the roof (and lights eventually).  See where the lights are now.  Thats where they will be for this season.

Looking at this, Jun 17 at 8:03am they are testing the lights sitting at the bottom of the 400 level.
Panorama (https://share.earthcam.net/tJ90CoLmq7TzrY396Yd88FXRdqnl2E_hRnTePevFrzI.tJ90CoLmq7TzrY396Yd88Ozh_sI-uA4OSFl5tymLFSs__/jacksonville_jaguars/camera_1/panorama)

Noticed the lights in the 400 level when I drove by this morning.

Cool to see the transformation going on at the stadium.

Also, does anyone know the status of the Cafe shell building at Riverfront Plaza?

The RFP has been closed for a couple of months now, and I haven't heard anything about who put in a submittal, who won, and what a timeframe for opening might be.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 17, 2026, 10:26:36 AMAlso, does anyone know the status of the Cafe shell building at Riverfront Plaza?

The RFP has been closed for a couple of months now, and I haven't heard anything about who put in a submittal, who won, and what a timeframe for opening might be.

I believe a quality local restaurateur is in the drivers seat. Should be good.

Quote from: fsu813 on June 17, 2026, 10:41:47 AM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 17, 2026, 10:26:36 AMAlso, does anyone know the status of the Cafe shell building at Riverfront Plaza?

The RFP has been closed for a couple of months now, and I haven't heard anything about who put in a submittal, who won, and what a timeframe for opening might be.

I believe a quality local restaurateur is in the drivers seat. Should be good.

Great news! Fingers crossed!

^ from what I hear, they expect the space to be occupied by the fall

Seems to be work of some type picking back up at the Independent Life building this week.

Following Wells Fargo, I see that they are renaming the Bank of America tower to a generic name as BoA has reduced footprint and not interested in retaining naming rights.  I recall the building at 70% occupancy was cited.  So much available space in downtown towers today.  I recall the Everbank building was hovering toward 24% or so if they move out.

Scary to think about the dwindling office population going away. Building owners need to seriously consider renovating in this period of downward spiral of the old buildings rate decline and improving to class a.

The market is there for class a newer buildings with open floor plans and collab spaces - the jags and gateway are proving it. BoA tower is nice and adding restaurants outside not sure what they've done to the interior lately. Also didn't help they invested a ton into their Southside location. 

But I think once the residential population grows(desperately needs), and downtown feels more lively then you'll see more business attracted and moving back downtown. They need things to do after work, and to feel "safe".

The parks are all wonderful, but for an office worker, you want quick happy hour with colleagues after a long day or maybe a bite, then the late night crowd comes in you have a few check it out and call it. It's very limited downtown compared to let's say the Southside. Town Center feels more like downtown than downtown feels like downtown. Pearl square can't get online fast enough. 

^ 90% of St. Johns Town Center is suburban sprawl. Only the original core strip is urban/walkable. That said, everyone gets your point re: level of activity.

Quote from: fsu813 on June 19, 2026, 07:58:46 AM^ 90% of St. Johns Town Center is suburban sprawl. Only the original core strip in urban/walkable. That said, everyone gets your point re: level of activity.

Correction lol! 100% of SJTC is suburban sprawl. Its just as urban and walkable as the Avenues or Orange Park Mall. The main strip is a mall without a roof.

....my bad. Apologies to the Avenues and Orange Park Mall. Both are slightly more walkable....because they have air conditioning, which is pretty nice during the summer months!

Another positive sign - the Aldi downtown opened yesterday - they did a great job with the store renovation (should have considering how long it took).

Note that it is slightly larger than most Aldi stores - and there is still about 5,000 sq ft that will be available for lease on the Beaver Street side.

How many of the separated spaces from Winn Dixie to Aldi conversions remain empty? Fort Caroline is still empty after almost a year.

Quote from: copperfiend on June 20, 2026, 07:20:54 PMHow many of the separated spaces from Winn Dixie to Aldi conversions remain empty? Fort Caroline is still empty after almost a year.

I don't go by that center often, but it's not the only vacancy in that center, is it?

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on June 18, 2026, 11:25:49 PMTown Center feels more like downtown than downtown feels like downtown. Pearl square can't get online fast enough.
 

Quote from: fsu813 on June 19, 2026, 07:58:46 AM^ 90% of St. Johns Town Center is suburban sprawl. Only the original core strip is urban/walkable. That said, everyone gets your point re: level of activity.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2026, 08:04:16 AMCorrection lol! 100% of SJTC is suburban sprawl. Its just as urban and walkable as the Avenues or Orange Park Mall. The main strip is a mall without a roof.

....my bad. Apologies to the Avenues and Orange Park Mall. Both are slightly more walkable....because they have air conditioning, which is pretty nice during the summer months!

Ultimately semantics in terms of "feels more like downtown than Downtown Jacksonville," but I do also see the point that MDTJGA was making and think the urban crowd is far too dismissive of the Town Center when there are plenty of opportunities to learn from what they're doing right. Particularly when the Town Center keeps exploding outward while the CBD continues to implode from the inside.

The CBD would kill for the residential and and hotel units that the Town Center area has been producing since it opened, and the Town Center area has absolutely been eating the lunch of the urban core in terms of attracting the target demographic needed for downtown to thrive. Might be suburban, but the day-to-day pedestrian activity, vibrancy, retail stability, and tenant quality mops the floor with Downtown Jacksonville. Absent massive population influx, retail activity and residential occupancy is a zero-sum game. And the type of folks who spend weekends at the Town Center are the same types of folks that we'll need to attract downtown to make it successful.

Might be the lack of mentally unstable homeless people on every other corner.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 20, 2026, 08:30:22 PM

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on June 18, 2026, 11:25:49 PMTown Center feels more like downtown than downtown feels like downtown. Pearl square can't get online fast enough.
 

Quote from: fsu813 on June 19, 2026, 07:58:46 AM^ 90% of St. Johns Town Center is suburban sprawl. Only the original core strip is urban/walkable. That said, everyone gets your point re: level of activity.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2026, 08:04:16 AMCorrection lol! 100% of SJTC is suburban sprawl. Its just as urban and walkable as the Avenues or Orange Park Mall. The main strip is a mall without a roof.

....my bad. Apologies to the Avenues and Orange Park Mall. Both are slightly more walkable....because they have air conditioning, which is pretty nice during the summer months!

Ultimately semantics in terms of "feels more like downtown than Downtown Jacksonville," but I do also see the point that MDTJGA was making and think the urban crowd is far too dismissive of the Town Center when there are plenty of opportunities to learn from what they're doing right. Particularly when the Town Center keeps exploding outward while the CBD continues to implode from the inside.

The CBD would kill for the residential and and hotel units that the Town Center area has been producing since it opened, and the Town Center area has absolutely been eating the lunch of the urban core in terms of attracting the target demographic needed for downtown to thrive. Might be suburban, but the day-to-day pedestrian activity, vibrancy, retail stability, and tenant quality mops the floor with Downtown Jacksonville. Absent massive population influx, retail activity and residential occupancy is a zero-sum game. And the type of folks who spend weekends at the Town Center are the same types of folks that we'll need to attract downtown to make it successful.

From my view, they're apples and oranges markets, so there's not much to learn unless the goal is to want downtown to have the same tenants as a typical modern shopping mall, context and demographics. If so, downtown revitalization efforts (if that were the unified community vision for downtown) will struggle another 100 years because that's not its market, property ownership pattern, urban core demographic base, etc.

SJTC is what Avenues was in the 1990s, Regency/Arlington in the 1980s and Orange Park Mall in the 1970s. Its also a good 40-50 years in the making. As the metropolitan area continues to expand out, retail trends change and apartment age, another area will replace the SJTC area in prominence for that type of development. Most likely that spot will emerge somewhere in Northern St. Johns County.

The urban core is a different ballgame altogether. It history, density, surrounding context, politics, land ownership, ethnic and economic demographics are totally different and all of that plays a significant impact on development...especially when compared to suburban development patterns and trends. Even more successful downtowns like Atlanta, Tampa, Charlotte, Orlando, St. Petersburg, etc. don't have the same type of tenant mix or development mix as SJTC and other malls in their regions.

With that said, there's more new stuff going in now (e.g. retail, F&B, hotel, etc.), than what downtown has witnessed in decades....but things take years to materialize (Gateway Jax's is coming along nicely though and I'm excited about what Beaver Street will resemble in five years). Nevertheless, we do have some challenges to overcome like....still not having a unified community vision for downtown's future, making strategic short term investments to keep existing businesses open, and dealing with a shifting post pandemic office and F&B market.

Quote from: acme54321 on June 20, 2026, 08:33:13 PMMight be the lack of mentally unstable homeless people on every other corner.

This definitely has to be addressed!

Not to mention all the failed malls that opened in cities hoping to bring the mall experience to their downtowns. Landing is an example. I can think of 10 others off the top of my head. I feel a successful downtown would look more like 5-points than SJTC. I guess there are exceptions like 5th Ave in NY or Oxford in London, but those cities are on another level than most.

I've said it before... Downtown needs only a few basics and none of them involve throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at developers.

1. Develop a coherent and reasonable community based master plan for Downtown and the rings around it and consistently and reliably adhere to its implementation over many years.
2. Change zoning to require near continuous retail/interaction along street level facings.
3. Have robust inner city mass transit that connects with surrounding urban neighborhoods and makes it easy to move about Downtown.
4. Increase green public spaces and maximize public access to the river which should be the focal point and character-making of Downtown.
5. Make streetscapes more pedestrian friendly and keep them clean and well maintained.
6. Increase visibility of JSO to make Downtown civilians feel safer.

Whether a small, medium or large city, most or all of these elements are common to all that are robust.  Do the above and developers will be knocking our doors down.  Our insistence on chasing pots of gold at the end of a rainbow isn't going to get us there.  So frustrating to see the lack of focus on the above vs. chasing developers.  We have it backwards.

^Investment in those no frills, non-headline popping quality-of-life elements are essential but have been long overlooked and ignored over the years. In recent years, we've began making investment in green spaces but it will take some time for the benefits of these public improvements to come online. We're still struggling big time with the others areas pointed out.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2026, 09:20:26 PM

Quote from: acme54321 on June 20, 2026, 08:33:13 PMMight be the lack of mentally unstable homeless people on every other corner.

This definitely has to be addressed!

I don't know how the Gateway Jax team isn't pushing the city hard on this considering their proximity to the Clara White and Trintity Rescue missions.  That immediate area is out of control. 

I drove by there with a bunch of coworkers last week and it was embarrassing for the city.  Most of them live in the burbs, Clay, or St Johns.  How are we supposed to convince people to come downtown when that is the first thing they encounter getting off of 95.

Good news is that Sulzbacher's new campus is moving along.

Quote from: acme54321 on June 22, 2026, 06:59:19 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2026, 09:20:26 PM

Quote from: acme54321 on June 20, 2026, 08:33:13 PMMight be the lack of mentally unstable homeless people on every other corner.

This definitely has to be addressed!

I don't know how the Gateway Jax team isn't pushing the city hard on this considering their proximity to the Clara White and Trintity Rescue missions.  That immediate area is out of control. 

I know how the Gateway Jax team is doing this: firmly but very quietly. ;)

Was downtown most of the week for the first time this summer. Broken record, but I remain deeply concerned with our lack of a municipal plan for the CBD. We're investing heavily in Riverfront Plaza, which is awesome. Gateway Jax is building up Pearl Square with public incentives, which is awesome. But the 30 blocks in between are falling into such deep blight that we risk both evolving as standalone destinations, versus pieces of a successful, cohesive downtown.

Bread and Board, Bellwether, Jumpin Jax, Happy Grilled Cheese, Estrella Cocina, and Peterbrooke all remain unoccupied after closing. Starbucks was supposed to start construction a year ago. Still not open. It was announced at a Council meeting two months ago that a tenant for the Riverfont Plaza cafe space would be named by May 15th, with the cafe open by Fall. No visible progress. Bums everywhere. Office tenants moving out. Miracle plan for the Laura Street Trio vanished. 

We desperately need a block-by-block plan and intense investment strategy for the stretch between Riverfont Plaza and the proposed Publix. Starting with Laura, Hogan, and Adams. Take that $30 million we are dangling to the CIA and invest it into incentivizing office towers to open to the streets, expanded outdoor seating, more streetscaping and shade, attracting destination retail to vacant storefronts, office-to-residential conversion grants, and consistent, year-round programming.

Will say it till the cows come home - despite being perpetually treated like a second-class citizen, JWJP remains the single best opportunity to bridge that gap between the riverfront and Pearl Square. Investing in making this park (and the surrounding periphery) a 365-day a year destination at the very heart of the CBD would transform the entire Northbank core.

A lot of people are working too hard, and investing too much, to not have a clear, actionable picture on a city level of what success looks like.

I taught at Moca last semester and would go for a walk everyday after teaching. Besides Riverfront Park and Gateway, downtown has never looked so dismal. Without a serious masterplan, I can't see things moving forwards and getting better.

Yep. I was at a corporate event inside the Vystar building. Complete ghost town around it. It is depressing.

The North Bank really doesn't offer many reasons for the rest of Jacksonville residents to visit other than a few sporting events. The area is walled off on the west by the freeways, the south and east by the river. The north is poorly connected and should have kept the streetcars that were replaced by buses. The homeless and drug addicts roam freely through the area which scares families from visiting the parks, library and museums. The landscaping and street layout is scary and blighted. The city has the habit of blowing things up and leaving moonscapes. People from out of town still ask me what happened to the Landing, they can't find it. There is no cohesive master plan, it is just a patchwork of different projects hear and there. Design rules are optional. A lot of the taxpayer's money has already been wasted, let private investors spend their own for a change. More money should be spent fixing or upgrading infrastructure and utilities in underserved areas.

I don't agree with the council on pulling incentives, but not providing much of a counter argument without a plan. We need to have incentive prioritization areas. If you propose something out of the direct core, incentives go down. Only A master plan will do this. The downtown boundaries are too big and it would take 250 years to fill in at this rate.

If someone looks at Downtown Jacksonville on Google Maps Terrain View and compare it with the rest of the city, they will see a giant heat island from all of the exposed concrete and asphalt. Even if we make the streets more walkable, it is too damn hot to be out there in the middle of the day for half of the year. The sabal palms are native to north Florida, but it is the wrong choice for street trees here. We need to replace them with native trees that provide adequate shade along the sidewalks and gathering areas. What is needed downtown are more businesses willing to move in and use existing vacant buildings. Provide them with financial incentives. Downtowns need to evolve with changing needs or else it suffers from urban decay.

On a positive note for Laura Street, Starbucks is actively being built out and just applied for sign permits. Oak Steakhouse is actively being built out and just put up new signage. Permits have been applied for the build out of the stairs leading to the new basement speakeasy under Oak Steakhouse. Avant will start rehabbing Mag's Cafe and the adjacent 2 buildings in the next few months which will yield multiple new restaurant and retail spaces plus residential.

Arriete is still planning to move forward on their fine-dining restaurant concept in the BOA Tower as well as a possible deli concept where Akel's used to be. Becovic Management applied for permits for a coffee concept in The Barnett. They assumed the mortgage for the Laura Trio and are awaiting the outcome of the city's foreclosure suit and have active plans for multiple other prominent buildings in the area. Not sure what's up with Snyder but they were supposed to be moving forward with a pre-disposition phase as of February.

There's no doubt that 2023-2026 will be remembered as really bleak years for Downtown with a plethora of retail/restaurant closures and job losses but I think 2027-2030 will portray a different picture (at least for Laura Street) based on what is actively under construction and permitted right now

^Promises, promises as the song goes. Downtown has been on the cusp of great things for generations now.  Proof is in the pudding.  But, without a coherent master plan, incentives for street level retail/restaurants, robust connected and internal mass transit routes, better sense of security, improved streetscapes, etc. I don't see anything being sustainable over the long haul.  Downtown just keeps treading water.  All the places going out of business Downtown in the last few years also thought Downtown was on the cusp of great things and... it didn't happen and they lost their investment in Downtown's false starts, once again.

Private sector can only do so much.  Giving incentives to private developers won't address what only the City can and needs to do.  I have said it before... if we took a chunk of incentive dollars and had the City use those funds for its responsibilities and leadership, Downtown would be way ahead of where it is now and most incentives would not be necessary.  The ROI would have been many times higher.  Incentives just are not going to get it done alone.

While I'm incredibly proud of what's been accomplished Downtown by Mayor Deegan's team, DIA, Gateway, etc. in the last several years, the sad reality is that we're starting from less than zero. Years of self-inflicted damage and terrible decisions by the Curry admin will take years to recover from. The other tough reality is that there's no coming back from it without more investment to recover what's been lost. That can be a tough sell for those who saw all the money wasted on demolitions and bad projects.

The good news is that none of this is rocket science, good design principles and investments really work and the proof is in the recovery you can see in dozens of cities that have been in our position or worse. In fact, it is working - the projects that are coming online now are already paying off - not only are people coming back to the places where new parks have opened, but there's more private investment than there's been in probably 20 years. And the more people see it happening, the more and better they demand.

Looks like it's public now: European Street Cafe will be opening at the Riverfront Plaza playground space. It will be a different, more simple concept than their other restaurants.

Agree the incentives are probably more important now than anytime. I'm afraid council is going to cut investment as things pick up. Many on council are not so great. Not a party thing, they just are inept. They are just like Curry. Many don't even know how great cities function. Not talking about everyone, but enough to make a negative impact. A focused plan and priority areas would help. People on here know what is what, but when listening to council members talk about downtown, it is frightening how little they know. That is what is scary to me. If they cut incentives for Gateway before things are realized, it could halt everything rather fast.

We need a good analogy to illustrate the folly of ending incentives too soon, and maybe another for using incentives in the wrong place.

My stabes at it
Ending incentives for Gateway because "they are doing well" would be like, during a 3-hour operation, discontinuing anesthesia at 90 minutes because the "patient and surgeon are doing well."

Something sports-related might resonate.

A great downtown master plan is dynamic. The people that have any say in what that entails need to have a good overall vision for the development of the area and its interaction with the rest of the city and surroundings. Jacksonville is perceived as a working class city. There is no shame in that. Also, it can't become a tourist destination like the other major cities in Florida. I lived in Baltimore for a few years and find Jacksonville mirrors its identity. Both have a long maritime history with both having former shipyards. Both demolished their riverfront shopping and restaurant complex(Harborplace and Jacksonville Landing). Both currently struggling to revive their downtown area. Both have world class specialized medical care. Both love their professional sports teams. That being said, downtown should focus on what the rest of the city wants but doesn't currently have. For example, does it want world class entertainment, dining, health spa or shopping? I personally would like to see a metro rail system like the one in Baltimore, but that would need to be considered in the master plan.

One thing that comes to mind is how certain council members began questioning giving incentives to Gateway for projects that will almost definitely happen if incentivized and then pass an emergency ordinance to provide 35 million for the half-baked CIA proposal. It would be great if CIA came to JAX, but this proposal stinks like all the other (pie-in-the-sky) proposals that fizzled over the years. We all know these guys have no vision, but a master plan would keep things focused.

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 04, 2026, 09:11:36 PM.....but a master plan would keep things focused.

This is it. When there's no unified vision, people's thoughts and perspectives end up being all over the play. This ultimately ends up with a lot of public money being wasted with little forward progress to show. It all results in some pretty valid reasons for naysayers to shoot down the entire thought of public investment in downtown. With that said, I do believe we have turned the corner and at least the mayors office and DIA are aware of the importance for a unified vision and are working to make this long delayed necessity a reality.

This would be a win. More traffic and family friendly. Only downside is if it requires a drive thru. But let's hope the word gets out.

Chick-fil-A testing downtown Jacksonville market with Bank of America tower pop-up (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2026/07/06/chick-fil-downtown-market-test.html?csrc=6398&link_source=ta_first_comment&taid=6a4bf4460dad8b00012a7e2a)

QuoteA national fast food brand is testing the market in downtown Jacksonville with a pop-up in one the city center's tallest towers.
For the week of July 6 to 10, Chick-fil-A Inc. is doing a pop-up inside Jax Tower located at 50 N. Laura St.
Cushman & Wakefield handles leasing for the tower.

"Bringing nationally-recognized brands downtown is an important part of creating a vibrant business district. This pop-up gives Chick-fil-A the opportunity to experience the market firsthand while demonstrating the demand for more dining options that serve downtown employees, residents and visitors," Sarah Teagle, senior associate at Cushman & Wakefiled said to the Business Journal via text. "The goal of the pop up is to test the market and evaluate the potential for a permanent location. Jax Tower is the perfect venue being in the heart of downtown's central business district."

About six months ago, I put together yet another article about applying the Bryant Park model to James Weldon Johnson Park, but life got busy and I never followed up. It was very similar to other articles I've written over the years, with a core thesis that successful revitalization is almost always sparked by consistent, dependable activity, not concrete and steel.

Jacksonville has historically put an outsized focus on capital improvements, while underinvesting in the operations and programming necessary to bring life to the streets. Huge part of why downtown hasn't been more successful is that we tend to treat things like programming, management, security and marketing as optional overhead, versus core infrastructure.

James Weldon Johnson Park, sitting at the geographic and civic heart of downtown, is our highest and best opportunity to create a catalytic space that is always-on.

Key points from the now somewhat-outdated article below, with a warning that AI was used for quick n' dirty visualizations, in case you're triggered by such things.

Key Point 1. Very little of our current investment is in the blocks that are struggling the worst.
(https://i.postimg.cc/02Rndm77/1.png)

Key Point 2. James Weldon Johnson is the historical civic heartbeat of Downtown Jacksonville. It's surrounded by our key cultural and government institutions, and its current neglect and shoestring budget results in a climate where rather than raising adjacent property values, a staggering $64 million in cash from the general fund is necessary just to develop nearby it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FsyZPRZv/2.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4N658d5X/3.png)

Key Point 3. There is an insane amount of precedent out there in terms of how a space just like JWJP can become the economic redevelopment engine for a CBD.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsyZPRZR/4.png)

Key Point 4. To Bill's point, none of this is rocket science. And it won't cost $35 million and a recurring endowment, like the Culinary Institute of America. It's spending $10 million to restore James Weldon Johnson Park back into a flexible civic-square style park, and then spending $3 million a year to aggressively program it with a combination of small daily events, dependable weekly events, and tentpole seasonal events. If RAM can create the most vibrant space in the city underneath a highway overpass, certainly we can do the same in a block where those positive externalities will spill out in every direction where they are needed the most.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KvSfrLt5/5.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQTgh6Cy/6.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/CLT7HDbm/7.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/HsDz45bz/8.png)

Key Point 5. By investing heavily in activating the edges, we can create an authentic, organic mini-district using existing assets and historical fabric, versus building from the ground-up. And we can create a space that pulls people into the city from the river on a daily basis, attracts visitors in from Pearl Square, produces more natural surveillance and deters crime, and creates more demand for residential and office occupancy.

Examples might include things like turning Synder into JWJP's signature restaurant; partnering with the Main Library on an outdoor reading room; opening Setlan to the park (might be harder now with the sculpture); leveraging MOCA's retail storefront for a City of Jax/Museum gift shop; closing certain streets adjacent to the park; adding an outdoor game room; retrofitting rooftop spaces overlooking the park that can be activated for events, etc.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbSkKH4Y/Screenshot-2026-07-06-at-4-34-11-PM.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/2SKVhstW/Screenshot-2026-07-06-at-4-34-18-PM.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/TYNrNDDQ/10.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4N2z299P/11.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/yYpFpZZT/12.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/yY8mTPkv/13.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qMvsGLz1/14.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/c4kQknnR/15.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/q7NQGdMX/Screenshot-2026-07-06-at-4-43-08-PM.png)

tl;dr - Heavily investing in a flexible JWJP redesign paired with aggressive programming of the park and activated edges creates an always-on, vibrant hub of activity right in the heart of the city; bridges the gap between Riverfront Plaza and Pearl Square; improves security, real and perceived; drives demand for living and working in the CBD; and provides constant foot traffic to the downtown storefronts that are struggling just to stay afloat.

I like.

Whats the latest with JWJ Park? Was a plan and cost ever settled on from the concepts Walter Hood's group produced?

Makes sense. And it would be easy to get the ball rolling. Tomorrow, The City could start to organize and pay for multiple events at JWJ with its current layout and open space. If the events became a hit, it could be easier for the City to find a partner to turn Snyder into a tavern, etc., and activate the edges.

Eventually the City could redesign JWJ into a proper flex space, but they really could start programming in the park much sooner. The only regular event I know of is Art Walk. 

Ken FSU, great article and concepts!  I brought up Bryant Park a long time ago on a post in another thread I believe (no easy way to search Jaxson posts so relying on a shaky memory  8)).  Like so much of what Downtown could do, there are many successful models found around the US and the world.  I don't understand why it is so hard for Jax to copy and paste... no consultants needed.

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on July 06, 2026, 02:53:09 PMThis would be a win. More traffic and family friendly. Only downside is if it requires a drive thru. But let's hope the word gets out.

Chick-fil-A testing downtown Jacksonville market with Bank of America tower pop-up (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2026/07/06/chick-fil-downtown-market-test.html?csrc=6398&link_source=ta_first_comment&taid=6a4bf4460dad8b00012a7e2a)

QuoteA national fast food brand is testing the market in downtown Jacksonville with a pop-up in one the city center's tallest towers.
For the week of July 6 to 10, Chick-fil-A Inc. is doing a pop-up inside Jax Tower located at 50 N. Laura St.
Cushman & Wakefield handles leasing for the tower.

"Bringing nationally-recognized brands downtown is an important part of creating a vibrant business district. This pop-up gives Chick-fil-A the opportunity to experience the market firsthand while demonstrating the demand for more dining options that serve downtown employees, residents and visitors," Sarah Teagle, senior associate at Cushman & Wakefiled said to the Business Journal via text. "The goal of the pop up is to test the market and evaluate the potential for a permanent location. Jax Tower is the perfect venue being in the heart of downtown's central business district."

They sold out twice today. If they proceed with a brick and mortar, I doubt it would be a stand alone location with a drive-thru which would only work on the State and Union corridor. Something similar to the CFA locations in Downtown Mobile or Birmingham come to mind. Considering the pop-up is in the BOA Tower, the old Akel's deli space on the corner is likely the leading candidate and would be a great location in the heart of the CBD

Quote from: Zac T on July 07, 2026, 06:58:21 PM

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on July 06, 2026, 02:53:09 PMThis would be a win. More traffic and family friendly. Only downside is if it requires a drive thru. But let's hope the word gets out.

Chick-fil-A testing downtown Jacksonville market with Bank of America tower pop-up (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2026/07/06/chick-fil-downtown-market-test.html?csrc=6398&link_source=ta_first_comment&taid=6a4bf4460dad8b00012a7e2a)

QuoteA national fast food brand is testing the market in downtown Jacksonville with a pop-up in one the city center's tallest towers.
For the week of July 6 to 10, Chick-fil-A Inc. is doing a pop-up inside Jax Tower located at 50 N. Laura St.
Cushman & Wakefield handles leasing for the tower.

"Bringing nationally-recognized brands downtown is an important part of creating a vibrant business district. This pop-up gives Chick-fil-A the opportunity to experience the market firsthand while demonstrating the demand for more dining options that serve downtown employees, residents and visitors," Sarah Teagle, senior associate at Cushman & Wakefiled said to the Business Journal via text. "The goal of the pop up is to test the market and evaluate the potential for a permanent location. Jax Tower is the perfect venue being in the heart of downtown's central business district."

They sold out twice today. If they proceed with a brick and mortar, I doubt it would be a stand alone location with a drive-thru which would only work on the State and Union corridor. Something similar to the CFA locations in Downtown Mobile or Birmingham come to mind. Considering the pop-up is in the BOA Tower, the old Akel's deli space on the corner is likely the leading candidate and would be a great location in the heart of the CBD

Before they did freestandings with drive thrus Chick Fil-A was a mainstay of mall food courts. I think they've got a downtown Jax with 10,000+ residents written all over them. And after CFA more chains will come, leasing space.

Is there still a CFA in Baptist on the Southbank?

Downtown losing one of its champions.  If it is on the cusp of great things, seems the timing is unusual, especially with no mention of next plans.  Is DVI all that relevant presently to Downtown's future?  It also notes the impending vote on property taxes which I gather could impact taxing districts like DVI's Downtown?

QuoteDowntown Vision Inc. CEO Jake Gordon stepping down
After 11 years at the nonprofit, he departs Sept. 30 with COO Eric Miller stepping in as interim CEO.

The head of Downtown Vision Inc. is leaving the organization.

On July 7, CEO Jake Gordon said he would step down effective Sept. 30 after 11 years leading the nonprofit that supports Downtown Jacksonville.

In a phone interview, Gordon described his departure as part of a "natural process."

"I've kind of lived my job, and I think it's the right time right now for me to step away and for the organization to get some fresh perspective and do a lot of planning and discussing about the future and what's happening with Downtown," he said. "I think that's a natural process. I have been telling a couple people, I am very proud of the progress we made. We really worked hard over the last 11 years and did a lot of amazing things, but at some point it's always the right time to step away, right?"

Gordon said DVI Chief Operating Officer Eric Miller would step in as interim CEO beginning Oct. 1. The board has not decided on a process to find a long-term successor, he said.

Gordon said that during his time at DVI, the organization has grown from a budget of about $1 million to about $5 million. In 2021, Jacksonville City Council expanded DVI's district from 0.5 square mile to 1.3 square miles, a 160% increase in territory.

His departure comes amid discussion of again expanding DVI's district as far west as LaVilla, to include the site of the University of Florida graduate campus, and as far east as the Four Seasons Hotel and Residences under construction in the Shipyards area.

Asked if the proposed expansion factored into his decision to step down, he said the organization's evolution helped lead him to believe it was time for a change.

"You can't do this job halfway, and I do think the organization is going to expand," he said. "I think we have a phenomenal team and we've grown a ton, and I just think, for me personally, it's just my time. I personally see it as a positive and I'm excited to watch the organization grow."

Gordon's departure will come weeks before a statewide vote in November on whether to increase Florida's homestead exemption on property taxes. Council auditors say the increase would reduce the city's tax revenue by more than $300 million by fiscal year 2029. Downtown advocates, including Mayor Donna Deegan, say passage of the constitutional amendment would cripple the city's ability to incentivize Downtown redevelopment.

"I think that's unfortunate, and we see a lot of people talking about it," Gordon said.

Gordon said that when he arrived in Jacksonville, Downtown and the community at large were still dealing with effects of the 2008 recession.

"There was almost no interest in Downtown development generally," he said. "When people found out that I kind of moved here for love — because my wife is from Gainesville and she wanted to move to Florida — they were, like, 'Oh, that makes more sense now.' It's funny, because I don't think it was a time when there were a lot of people relocating to Jacksonville."

Looking back on Downtown development since then, Gordon pointed to a number of projects and events that have been established. Among them are the Riverfront Plaza park on the site of the demolished Jacksonville Landing, the UF campus project, the Sip & Stroll event series on the Southbank Riverwalk and the discontinued Jax River Jams concert series.

"I really do think Downtown Vision is in a better place, and Downtown Jacksonville is in a better place" than it was in 2015, he said. "I believe in leaving a place better than you found it, and I really think we did that with the organization and also with Downtown."

Gordon has been a visible leader of DVI, appearing at Downtown events, speaking at Council meetings and representing Jacksonville at conferences in other cities.

He is known partly for his style of dress, which includes sneakers with suit jackets.

The announcement of his departure is the second significant personnel change for DVI and its 13-member staff in recent months. In April, Laura Phillips Edgecombe joined the organization as vice president of urban systems.

Edgecombe's previous roles included principal for Downtown open spaces at the Jessie Ball duPont Fund and co-founder of Build Up Downtown. She is the immediate past president of the JAX Chamber Downtown Council board and a member of The Florida Theatre's board.

Hired in 2015 after a national search, Gordon came to Jacksonville after serving in economic development roles in New Jersey. Before that, he was an associate attorney for the O'Melveny & Myers LLP law firm in Los Angeles.

At DVI, he oversaw an organization that promotes and advocates politically for Downtown while also facilitating events, producing research and providing maintenance, beautification, security and hospitality through its Downtown Ambassador program.

DVI is funded primarily by Downtown property owners through a property tax self-assessment. Established by City Council in 2000, DVI is a 501(c)6 nonprofit business association and a 501(c)3 charitable organization.

Gordon said he had not determined his next step beyond DVI.

"I knew it was the right time for me right now, but there's a little bit of bittersweetness that I can't be around for all this stuff," he said, referring to openings of projects on the horizon. "I think I'm going to really appreciate seeing it every time a big project opens Downtown. It's just so great to see."

He said he viewed his departure "like a baton I'm passing off to the next person that's going to take it to the next level up."

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/jul/07/downtown-vision-inc-ceo-jake-gordon-stepping-down/

Quote from: Aristocles on July 07, 2026, 08:22:48 PMAnd after CFA more chains will come, leasing space.

Eventually, if things break right, we could be worthy of a Jersey Mikes. Goals.

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/jersey-mikes-dethrones-chick-fil-a-americas-favorite-fast-food-chain-new-ranking.amp

Quote from: thelakelander on July 07, 2026, 09:30:17 PMIs there still a CFA in Baptist on the Southbank?

I believe so.

2. Change zoning to require near continuous retail/interaction along street level facings.
3. Have robust inner city mass transit that connects with surrounding urban neighborhoods and makes it easy to move about Downtown.

As a downtown resident, these are my two biggest needs! It would help alot to have resturants and stores (Honestly more nationwide brand options) that are open on the weekends and past 2pm during the week. It's nice for the workers, but I would like to come home after work and be able to grab something to eat that is not a pizza or cookies after 3pm. Also, eventhough I walk to the surrounding neighborhoods like Riverside and San Marco (To go to the places that are actually open with regular hours), it would be great to just hop on something that would allow me to shop and not be concerned with how to carry my groceries over bridges or riverwalks. Weren't they suppose to open the station for the Skyway in Riverside?

Quote from: fsu813 on July 08, 2026, 12:19:31 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on July 07, 2026, 09:30:17 PMIs there still a CFA in Baptist on the Southbank?

I believe so.

That location closed like 5 years ago and was replaced by Firehouse Subs.

Quote from: fsu813 on July 08, 2026, 12:16:01 AM

Quote from: Aristocles on July 07, 2026, 08:22:48 PMAnd after CFA more chains will come, leasing space.

Eventually, if things break right, we could be worthy of a Jersey Mikes. Goals.

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/jersey-mikes-dethrones-chick-fil-a-americas-favorite-fast-food-chain-new-ranking.amp

We have one in Brooklyn now!

Quote from: soepic on July 09, 2026, 04:37:52 AM2. Change zoning to require near continuous retail/interaction along street level facings.
3. Have robust inner city mass transit that connects with surrounding urban neighborhoods and makes it easy to move about Downtown.

As a downtown resident, these are my two biggest needs! It would help alot to have resturants and stores (Honestly more nationwide brand options) that are open on the weekends and past 2pm during the week. It's nice for the workers, but I would like to come home after work and be able to grab something to eat that is not a pizza or cookies after 3pm. Also, eventhough I walk to the surrounding neighborhoods like Riverside and San Marco (To go to the places that are actually open with regular hours), it would be great to just hop on something that would allow me to shop and not be concerned with how to carry my groceries over bridges or riverwalks. Weren't they suppose to open the station for the Skyway in Riverside?

Yes but then JTA went in head over heels with trying to force NAVI onto everyone and abandoned that Skyway expansion plan.

Ten years ago, I was in Bill Killingsworth's office, a train went by, and I said, "Nice, that's a great view. Too bad the skyway is pretty useless." He then told us a story about how there were plans to expand the skyway into Arlington along Union St, as well as a Springfield expansion, back in the day. However, First Baptist Church sued the city because they didn't want the city to build more tracks next to their building, and the expansion plans were dropped. I've never found any information to corroborate that, though. But Bill is a pretty knowledgeable guy, and I don't see why he would make that up.

The Springfield one I've heard before. Arlington seems like a stretch as how are you crossing the river?

We have the old maps. It wasn't going to Arlington. There were two lines. One running from Riverside to the stadium. The other was proposed from UF Health Jax, paralleling Hogans Creek in Hansontown, to San Marco.

So it's safe to say that First Baptist has stifled much of DT Jax growth?

Quote from: JaGoaT on July 09, 2026, 11:19:11 AMSo it's safe to say that First Baptist has stifled much of DT Jax growth?

That's the feeling (and likely reality) for many in the City that have been around for a long time.  Especially alleged they fought any kind of entertainment or night life that was contrary to their conservative (e.g. no alcoholic beverages, nothing remotely sexual, including dancing, or LGBGTQ, etc.) lifestyle.  Pretty much eliminated most non-office related possibilities.

Some good news for Downtown... but with no details on time or amount of space going forward.

QuoteEverBank renews lease to keep HQ Downtown
"Downtown makes the most sense to us," said a company executive to the Downtown Investment Authority in February.

Without disclosing full details, Jacksonville-based EverBank has decided to keep its headquarters space Downtown, but has not confirmed for how long.

"I can confirm that we have signed a renewal of our lease on West Bay Street," said Michael Cosgrove, senior vice president of corporate communications, July 9, referring to EverBank Center at 301 W. Bay St.

Asked for the size of the space involved, the length of the lease terms and the status of a rejected incentives request to the city to stay Downtown, Cosgrove replied: "We're not discussing any of the terms."

A second-quarter office market report by real estate company CBRE referred to key lease transactions that included EverBank as a renewal of 174,000 square feet of space at the 30-story Downtown tower.

The report gave no indication whether the lease was for the short term, which is considered two to four years in the market for a tenant that size, or for a longer term.

"We are happy that EverBank continues to be in downtown today and we'll do everything we can to keep them here," said city Chief Communications Officer Phil Perry in a July 9 email.

"Beyond that, we don't have any updates and refer you to the company for specifics."

Incentive request rejected

On Feb. 18, the Downtown Investment Authority board voted 7-2 against recommending approval of $9.8 million over 10 years to entice EverBank to stay at its offices at 301 W. Bay St.

EverBank said it requested the incentives to offset a cost differential in operating Downtown versus in a suburban office location.

The bank said it approached Mayor Donna Deegan's administration during 2025 as it began deciding whether to renew its 10-year lease in the Bay Street building, prompting negotiations that led to the proposed incentives.

DIA board members who voted against the recommendation expressed concern that it would create a precedent that would prompt other Downtown employers and property owners to request public assistance to stay Downtown.

The DIA board vote came on Resolution 2026-02-09, which called for the city to enter a Conditional Grant Agreement with EverBank to provide $980,000 annually to the financial institution over the 10-year term of the deal.

The funding would not be offered under a DIA redevelopment program, but rather would be drawn from the city general fund. Because a grant from the city fund would require Jacksonville City Council approval, several DIA board members said they did not believe the DIA's recommendation was necessary or appropriate.

That legislation was not filed with Council.

Terms of the deal included EverBank retaining a minimum of 139,000 square feet of leased and occupied space and investing $7 million in its space for tenant improvements.

In addition, the building owner would have been required to invest $7 million in EverBank's space and an additional $5 million in the remainder of the building for security, systems, amenities and site improvements.

Miami-based Amkin West LLC owns the building. It paid $47.4 million for the property in 2014.

Supporters of EverBank's request said the retention grant was needed to maintain the momentum of Downtown redevelopment.

DIA CEO Colin Tarbert said losing the bank's roughly 800-member workforce based Downtown would be a setback amid completion of such projects as riverfront parks and substantial progress on private developments such as the Four Seasons Hotel and Private Residences, the Whole Foods-anchored One Riverside mixed-use project in Brooklyn and Gateway Jax's $750 million-plus Pearl Square district in the North Core area north and west of City Hall.

During a discussion at a Feb. 9 meeting of the Council Special Committee on the Future of Downtown, committee members voiced opposing views, with some agreeing with DIA board members that the incentive would set a precedent in which other Downtown employers would seek public funding to stay put.

Downtown office vacancy

Downtown's office vacancy rate was 25% as of the second quarter of 2026, CBRE found in its market report. The Northbank, which includes EverBank Center, was 26.2% while the Southbank was 21.6%.

The suburban rate was 23.1%.

DIA board members questioned whether the property owner offered a competitive lease rate to EverBank, considering the high vacancy overall, the difference between rates Downtown and in the suburbs, and that a relocation by EverBank would leave the building more than 90% vacant.

Oliver Barakat, a former DIA board member who is senior vice president of CBRE, said in February that the property owner factored in the higher cost of building operations in Downtown compared with the suburbs, costs of the agreement and contributions for building improvements. The negotiated amount, he said, was competitive with other Downtown buildings.

Citizens Property Insurance Corp., which moved about 1,000 employees into the EverBank Center in 2015, is relocating to the former Florida Coastal School of Law building at 8787 Baypine Road in Baymeadows.

Mike Weinstein, Deegan's chief administrative officer, said in February that the mayor and administration "really wish we didn't have to do this," but felt offering the incentive was necessary.

"I think it's a very different picture five years from now," he said. "The parks will be done, the stadium will be done, some of the projects that you're wanting to do will be done."

A DIA analysis projected that EverBank's 800 employees would spend $1.66 million per year Downtown, based on an assumption that employees would work at least four days per week Downtown and would spend an average of $40 on goods and services there weekly. Over 10 years, the annual spending would amount to $16.64 million.

During the Feb. 9 meeting of the Council Special Committee, an EverBank representative said the bank determined that the annual cost of operating Downtown is $1.4 million higher than in a suburban commercial property.

Lawyer Steve Diebenow, of the Driver, McAfee, Hawthorne & Diebenow firm, said then that the proposed $9.8 million incentive was the product of negotiations between the bank and Deegan's office.

He said parking and security costs contributed to the differential.

Diebenow said EverBank employed seven security personnel Downtown. With a move to the suburbs, he said, the bank would likely only need to split the costs for one security guard with other tenants.

'Strong preference' Downtown

During the Feb. 18 DIA board meeting, EverBank executive Mark Gordon said the bank's "strong preference" would be to remain Downtown.

He said factors in that preference included EverBank's ties to the community, its proximity to the majority of its employees' homes and its connection to EverBank Stadium, the Jacksonville Jaguars' home stadium.

"Downtown makes the most sense to us," he said.

Responding to a question from DIA board member Sondra Fetner, Gordon said EverBank explored other offices Downtown but found them insufficient. Some fell short because of older infrastructure that would increase the bank's build-out costs, he said, and some had layouts that would require the bank to spread its staff across more floors when it wants to consolidate into a more contiguous stack.

EverBank moved its headquarters to 501 Riverside Ave. in 2006.

Six years later, EverBank Financial Corp. became the Bay Street building's anchor tenant and put its name at the top of what became EverBank Center.

After being acquired by TIAA Bank and then sold to a group of investment funds in 2022, EverBank's signage returned to the building in 2023.

In August of that year, the Jacksonville Jaguars stadium was named EverBank Stadium.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/jul/09/everbank-renews-lease-to-keep-hq-downtown/

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 09, 2026, 11:51:05 AM

Quote from: JaGoaT on July 09, 2026, 11:19:11 AMSo it's safe to say that First Baptist has stifled much of DT Jax growth?

That's the feeling (and likely reality) for many in the City that have been around for a long time.  Especially alleged they fought any kind of entertainment or night life that was contrary to their conservative (e.g. no alcoholic beverages, nothing remotely sexual, including dancing, or LGBGTQ, etc.) lifestyle.  Pretty much eliminated most non-office related possibilities.

Didn't know that but it wouldn't surprise me. I think, though, those days are either over or close to ending. There seems to be a big cultural shift in Jax over the last few years that's much more favorable for downtown development.

Quote from: Aristocles on July 09, 2026, 06:48:49 PM

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 09, 2026, 11:51:05 AM

Quote from: JaGoaT on July 09, 2026, 11:19:11 AMSo it's safe to say that First Baptist has stifled much of DT Jax growth?

That's the feeling (and likely reality) for many in the City that have been around for a long time.  Especially alleged they fought any kind of entertainment or night life that was contrary to their conservative (e.g. no alcoholic beverages, nothing remotely sexual, including dancing, or LGBGTQ, etc.) lifestyle.  Pretty much eliminated most non-office related possibilities.

Didn't know that but it wouldn't surprise me. I think, though, those days are either over or close to ending. There seems to be a big cultural shift in Jax over the last few years that's much more favorable for downtown development.

As an example, when the "Best Little Whorehouse In Texas" Broadway hit show came to the Performing Arts Center, there was an outcry from that corner of town about the language being on the marquee outside the building.  They wanted the City to remove it but it turned out they couldn't due to the contract with the show so it stayed on.

I would imagine FBC will sell off most of their buildings to Gateway in the next few years.

I'm glad that EverBank renewed their lease downtown (and without incentives), but they are singing an entire different tune from 6 months ago....


They cited "safety concerns" as an issue downtown.... Or was that more of a negotiation tactic for incentives ($$)? 🤨


or has the momentum downtown from the new riverfront parks, investments like gateway Jax, UF campus, street level improvements moving forward, and recent activity changed the company's outlook?


Either way, it's encouraging to see a major employer recommit to downtown.


I also hope EverBank maintains its policy requiring office employees to work in person full-time, as that will maximize the economic impact and presence of EverBank in downtown.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 09, 2026, 09:52:58 PM

Quote from: Aristocles on July 09, 2026, 06:48:49 PM

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 09, 2026, 11:51:05 AM

Quote from: JaGoaT on July 09, 2026, 11:19:11 AMSo it's safe to say that First Baptist has stifled much of DT Jax growth?

That's the feeling (and likely reality) for many in the City that have been around for a long time.  Especially alleged they fought any kind of entertainment or night life that was contrary to their conservative (e.g. no alcoholic beverages, nothing remotely sexual, including dancing, or LGBGTQ, etc.) lifestyle.  Pretty much eliminated most non-office related possibilities.

Didn't know that but it wouldn't surprise me. I think, though, those days are either over or close to ending. There seems to be a big cultural shift in Jax over the last few years that's much more favorable for downtown development.

As an example, when the "Best Little Whorehouse In Texas" Broadway hit show came to the Performing Arts Center, there was an outcry from that corner of town about the language being on the marquee outside the building.  They wanted the City to remove it but it turned out they couldn't due to the contract with the show so it stayed on.

Best Little Whorehouse - interesting. The reporter in the story, Marvin Zindler, was actually a real-life newscaster in the town I went to law school in. He was known for reporting on all the local restaurants that failed their health department inspections. He would always report on findings of "SLIIIIIIIIIIME IN THE ICE MACHINE!!!!!!!!"

It seems like Jacksonville's history is somewhat like Tampa's. Tampa's development was stifled for decades from 1940 until 1987 because Hillsborough County was controlled by the Mafia. The Trafficante family, led by Santo Trafficante Sr. and Santo Jr., basically had final say over economic activity there during that period. Santo Jr. died in 1987 and the descendants, though they still live in the Tampa Bay area, all have legit jobs now outside of the mob. So the Mafia doesn't control much there anymore.
It sounds like the church was essentially Jax's equivalent of Tampa's Mafia, having sway over what got developed. And, like what happened in Tampa, the church is losing its influence over Jax as time goes on.

Anyone thoughts on this demo? I'm skeptical of "investing" in any demo given our track record of redeveloping these spaces and surplus of vacant lots, but also don't know enough about this space to have a strong opinion.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/jul/15/downtown-investment-authority-board-votes-to-demolish-sax-seafood-building/

I don't have a problem with it.  The place is an eyesore and is probably trashed anyway. 

Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 15, 2026, 08:37:59 PMAnyone thoughts on this demo? I'm skeptical of "investing" in any demo given our track record of redeveloping these spaces and surplus of vacant lots, but also don't know enough about this space to have a strong opinion.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/jul/15/downtown-investment-authority-board-votes-to-demolish-sax-seafood-building/

I walked through it once after it was closed with a potential investor and it was a mess then, years ago.  I actually ate there when it first opened but didn't feel it was worth returning to.  Biggest location problem was it was literally an island by itself between two busy streets.  Great example of the benefits of clustering. 

Would be interesting if Gateway or others could move out the homeless shelter and extend its style of development  down Beaver to I-95 one day.  That is what it might take to make this location work best.

This one hurts more.

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8ffrQMs/IMG-6410.jpg)

Adventure Landing is so sad to drive br these days too.

^ Any effort to save the mural wall? 

When I look around most of Jacksonville's commercial areas today, I am hard pressed to find remnants of anything older than 30 years, often less.  Malls and strip shopping centers, government buildings, historic buildings, bank branches, entertainment venues, corner gas stations, restaurants, etc. gradually disappearing before our very eyes.

Not just downtown.  Drive down any state road (Roosevelt, San Jose, A1A, University, Emerson, US1, Blanding, Kings Rd, Main, Southside Blvd, 103rd, Normandy, etc.) and most sections are unrecognizable from 30 or less years ago.

Anyone who left Jax just a few years ago may feel lost returning now.

I think the transformation in modern times is unparalleled with our past.  Clearly related to our growth, but also our lack of tolerating the status quo, preservation or history.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 15, 2026, 10:46:11 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 15, 2026, 08:37:59 PMAnyone thoughts on this demo? I'm skeptical of "investing" in any demo given our track record of redeveloping these spaces and surplus of vacant lots, but also don't know enough about this space to have a strong opinion.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/jul/15/downtown-investment-authority-board-votes-to-demolish-sax-seafood-building/

I walked through it once after it was closed with a potential investor and it was a mess then, years ago.  I actually ate there when it first opened but didn't feel it was worth returning to.  Biggest location problem was it was literally an island by itself between two busy streets.  Great example of the benefits of clustering. 

Would be interesting if Gateway or others could move out the homeless shelter and extend its style of development  down Beaver to I-95 one day.  That is what it might take to make this location work best.

No way you ate there. The building was never completed. Are you taking about the restaurant that was open for a hot second in the Urban League building across the street?

Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 15, 2026, 08:37:59 PMAnyone thoughts on this demo? I'm skeptical of "investing" in any demo given our track record of redeveloping these spaces and surplus of vacant lots, but also don't know enough about this space to have a strong opinion.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/jul/15/downtown-investment-authority-board-votes-to-demolish-sax-seafood-building/

I don't have a problem with it. Whatever goes on that site needs to have some density.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 16, 2026, 12:44:30 AM

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 15, 2026, 10:46:11 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 15, 2026, 08:37:59 PMAnyone thoughts on this demo? I'm skeptical of "investing" in any demo given our track record of redeveloping these spaces and surplus of vacant lots, but also don't know enough about this space to have a strong opinion.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/jul/15/downtown-investment-authority-board-votes-to-demolish-sax-seafood-building/

I walked through it once after it was closed with a potential investor and it was a mess then, years ago.  I actually ate there when it first opened but didn't feel it was worth returning to.  Biggest location problem was it was literally an island by itself between two busy streets.  Great example of the benefits of clustering. 

Would be interesting if Gateway or others could move out the homeless shelter and extend its style of development  down Beaver to I-95 one day.  That is what it might take to make this location work best.

No way you ate there. The building was never completed. Are you taking about the restaurant that was open for a hot second in the Urban League building across the street?

Rethinking it, I may have looked at it with a potential investor and either didn't eat there, just sat inside, or maybe, had a sample meal there by the owner to demonstrate their planned menu.  Too many years since to recall exactly.  Needless to say, the investor passed on it and the rest is history.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 09, 2026, 11:51:05 AM

Quote from: JaGoaT on July 09, 2026, 11:19:11 AMSo it's safe to say that First Baptist has stifled much of DT Jax growth?

That's the feeling (and likely reality) for many in the City that have been around for a long time.  Especially alleged they fought any kind of entertainment or night life that was contrary to their conservative (e.g. no alcoholic beverages, nothing remotely sexual, including dancing, or LGBGTQ, etc.) lifestyle.  Pretty much eliminated most non-office related possibilities.

IMO their biggest impact was buying up 11 blocks of Downtown, making most of it dead space and empty most of the time. Their political influence was real but the amount they actively held back downtown growth is overstated. The rumor was that they bought up liquor licenses so bars and restaurants couldn't get them, but it was just an urban legend. They were more a boogeyman for the bigger things and bad leadership that held us back.

First Baptist went into a tailspin several years ago, and sold off most of its property, with Gateway and its constituent investors picking up the blocks. I believe they just own 3 blocks of property now, and a lot of that is empty and likely to be sold in the coming years. One of the buildings had their high school, which never had many students and I'm pretty sure doesn't even exist anymore.

At any rate, the stuff coming on line in those blocks now is really a return to the kind of thing that was there before the church campus, with a lot more residential this time.

Putting this here as it doesn't fit nearly elsewhere:

I had no idea that WJCT had such a sweetheart deal with the city. 100-year lease, on city-owned land, for $1 per year. Extending through 2076. Was curious about the $30k lease subsidy in the 26/27 budget and read up on the deal.

Interesting to me that we talk a lot about DCPS keeping prime riverfront property off the tax rolls, or the jail being a missed opportunity, but we don't really discuss WJCT. Seems like it could be some pretty valuable land once Met Park is revamped and the stadium and Four Seasons projects wrap.

Think we'll ever try to negotiate a move off the river for WJCT?

Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 21, 2026, 09:46:11 PMPutting this here as it doesn't fit nearly elsewhere:

I had no idea that WJCT had such a sweetheart deal with the city. 100-year lease, on city-owned land, for $1 per year. Extending through 2076. Was curious about the $30k lease subsidy in the 26/27 budget and read up on the deal.

Interesting to me that we talk a lot about DCPS keeping prime riverfront property off the tax rolls, or the jail being a missed opportunity, but we don't really discuss WJCT. Seems like it could be some pretty valuable land once Met Park is revamped and the stadium and Four Seasons projects wrap.

Think we'll ever try to negotiate a move off the river for WJCT?

In fairness, when WJCT built a state of the art station/studio there, they were almost entirely surrounded by industrial facilities, a declining Colosseum and Gator Bowl .  That area had near zero appeal for anything else.  WJCT also produced the Jazz Festival for many years at the pavilion stage in adjacent Metro park that was, as I recall, built out around the same time as WJCT moved there from its original digs on North Main Street.  They recorded the festival and it was nationally broadcast some years on PBS which promoted Jax to a nationwide audience.

With the loss of Federal and State funding, I don't see WJCT moving anywhere (just like MOSH shouldn't have been moved).  And, no way the City has the resources to spend, likely, tens of millions to move them out.  FYI, they rent out excess office space to a number of area nonprofits, not unlike the Jessie building downtown.

Lots of nonprofit (e.g. WJCT, YMCA, Episcopal High, Bishop Kenny, MOSH, etc.) and government buildings (e.g. school board, courthouse, city hall) have been built over the decades on riverfront land or near it because those areas were industrial, brownfields or unappealing otherwise in the day and the land was dirt cheap.  They shouldn't all be penalized for being the tip of the spear for the development that finally comes around today.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 21, 2026, 11:10:48 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 21, 2026, 09:46:11 PMPutting this here as it doesn't fit nearly elsewhere:

I had no idea that WJCT had such a sweetheart deal with the city. 100-year lease, on city-owned land, for $1 per year. Extending through 2076. Was curious about the $30k lease subsidy in the 26/27 budget and read up on the deal.

Interesting to me that we talk a lot about DCPS keeping prime riverfront property off the tax rolls, or the jail being a missed opportunity, but we don't really discuss WJCT. Seems like it could be some pretty valuable land once Met Park is revamped and the stadium and Four Seasons projects wrap.

Think we'll ever try to negotiate a move off the river for WJCT?

In fairness, when WJCT built a state of the art station/studio there, they were almost entirely surrounded by industrial facilities, a declining Colosseum and Gator Bowl .  That area had near zero appeal for anything else.  WJCT also produced the Jazz Festival for many years at the pavilion stage in adjacent Metro park that was, as I recall, built out around the same time as WJCT moved there from its original digs on North Main Street.  They recorded the festival and it was nationally broadcast some years on PBS which promoted Jax to a nationwide audience.

With the loss of Federal and State funding, I don't see WJCT moving anywhere (just like MOSH shouldn't have been moved).  And, no way the City has the resources to spend, likely, tens of millions to move them out.  FYI, they rent out excess office space to a number of area nonprofits, not unlike the Jessie building downtown.

Lots of nonprofit (e.g. WJCT, YMCA, Episcopal High, Bishop Kenny, MOSH, etc.) and government buildings (e.g. school board, courthouse, city hall) have been built over the decades on riverfront land or near it because those areas were industrial, brownfields or unappealing otherwise in the day and the land was dirt cheap.  They shouldn't all be penalized for being the tip of the spear for the development that finally comes around today.

Really interesting context, historically and on the non-profit side! Thanks for sharing, JLT!

^ Ken, glad to assist.  I should also add that some TV, commercial, movie, recording and other media projects done in Jax have used WJCT's sound stage and other facilities for their productions.  Like many things, more there than meets the eye  8).

When it comes to WJCT, I don't see them moving unless some developer REALLY wants the property. I think we're a ways off for that.

Laura Trio going up for auction August 5th

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/jul/22/foreclosure-auction-of-laura-street-trio-set-for-aug-5/

QuoteThe next step toward a change of ownership of the Laura Street Trio is set to occur Aug. 5 with a court-ordered auction of the historic buildings in Downtown Jacksonville.

On July 8, the Duval County Clerk of the Courts filed notice of the sale, which stems from a foreclosure suit filed by the city of Jacksonville in November 2024 against Laura Trio LLC and Red Oak Capital Fund II LLC.

The city alleged Laura Trio LLC, which is affiliated with Trio owner SouthEast Development Group, owed $827,500 in fines for municipal code violations.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 22, 2026, 01:32:42 PM^ Ken, glad to assist.  I should also had that some TV, commercial, movie, recording and other media projects done in Jax have used WJCT's sound stage and other facilities for their productions.  Like many things, more there than meets the eye  8).

Pippi Longstocking!

Quote from: Josh on July 23, 2026, 10:03:44 AM

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 22, 2026, 01:32:42 PM^ Ken, glad to assist.  I should also had that some TV, commercial, movie, recording and other media projects done in Jax have used WJCT's sound stage and other facilities for their productions.  Like many things, more there than meets the eye  8).

Pippi Longstocking!

Today I learned that Tony Khan uses WJCT's studios to film television shows for Ring of Honor wrestling (AEW's minor league).

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCl8CgDEssLLoI2y6CYh7VZ3SBL8cBTQ-1mF8OSevXzhx5ee2oBBVGCss&s=10)

Re: Downtown office occupancy. Hate to say it, but I don't think it's a coincidence that Bank of America is scaling down their downtown footprint and forfeiting naming rights from the BOFA Tower at the same time they're investing $200 million into their Southside campus. Not sure what their exact headcount is downtown right now, but I'd be really worried about losing what remains when the lease comes up for renewal in 2028.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on August 10, 2026, 07:21:43 PMRe: Downtown office occupancy. Hate to say it, but I don't think it's a coincidence that Bank of America is scaling down their downtown footprint and forfeiting naming rights from the BOFA Tower at the same time they're investing $200 million into their Southside campus. Not sure what their exact headcount is downtown right now, but I'd be really worried about losing what remains when the lease comes up for renewal in 2028.

From my conversations with bankers, most want an office of some sort downtown, mostly for local commercial bankers and wealth managers.  BofA wealth management is now mostly under the Merrill Lynch banner and they have consolidated that office with the bankers.  This said, all of it is a fraction of the employees and spaces that were once filled with lower level and supporting functions and other services.  Those have been either moved to the suburbs (like BofA) and/or consolidated in other cities (like Wells Fargo).  Locally HQ'd Everbank and Vystar are all that are left.

Losing bankers is a big hit to Downtown.  I think the next run out from Downtown could be the legal community.  When the new courthouse was built, City leaders were convinced law firms would surround it and reinvigorate that corner of Downtown.  Never happened.  And, today, most legal actions/filings/transactions can/are done electronically.  I bet most non-trial, non-criminal lawyers haven't been in the Courthouse in years so why stay Downtown?

Without lawyers, bankers and insurance (that mostly left years ago), government entities are the last significant holdouts. 

This is why residential, retail and tourism are the best opportunities to save Downtown.  Creating an ecosystem that caters to all 3 of these is critical.  As I have noted many times, this includes enlarged and more green spaces and playing more to the riverfront, upgraded security, improved streetscapes (more shade trees, wider, cleaner and better maintained sidewalks, public art, wayfinding maps and signage, etc.), zoning specific features such as requiring increased street facing activities, urban core mass transit (that is mostly nonexistent today as still can't live or visit without a car), historic preservation to add character, major support of Downtown cultural institutions and activities (not just events in the somewhat detached stadium district), weekend street closures to encourage walkability, and far better promotion locally and elsewhere of how to spend a full day or more "enjoying" Downtown. 

For the cost of several recent large incentive packages to developers, most of the above could be done and incentives would no longer be necessary while the greater public interests would be better served.

Downtown's need office & big business to thrive... otherwise downtown just becomes an expensive place to live. That all wraps back around to a city needing big business to sustain Top of the Market Lease Rates/Prices. Even the most Residential focused downtowns have substantially more big business than Jacksonville does.

Jacksonville would have that big business too, but consolidation and buyouts have largely reversed that & BOA moving to the suburbs is the ultimate representation of that. There's no need for the same staffing needs, as an HQ, at a branch location intentionally operated to run under the national average.

Barnett Bank sold for $15.5B in 1997... just think about that number in today's context. That is, by far, larger than any Fortune 500 locally in 2026, inflation adjusted of course.

Quote from: Jax_Developer on August 11, 2026, 12:48:39 PMBarnett Bank sold for $15.5B in 1997... just think about that number in today's context. That is, by far, larger than any Fortune 500 locally in 2026, inflation adjusted of course.

Is it?  CSX?  FIS?

Quote from: acme54321 on August 12, 2026, 11:46:55 AM

Quote from: Jax_Developer on August 11, 2026, 12:48:39 PMBarnett Bank sold for $15.5B in 1997... just think about that number in today's context. That is, by far, larger than any Fortune 500 locally in 2026, inflation adjusted of course.

Is it?  CSX?  FIS?

Look up the value of Barnett bank compared to the major banks at the time & you'll have your answer. CSX is the last man standing really..

So BOA moved a large portion of employees to a 10 story box in Southside. What would have made them happy to stay DT, and not consider leaving? Sorry for the ignorance, I don't come from real estate.

It's the last step in the progression from HQ to Satellite Branch. They likely are running core functions here that would otherwise cost more to operate in other markets.

This is now an efficiency model rather than a competition model.

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on August 12, 2026, 12:55:37 PMSo BOA moved a large portion of employees to a 10 story box in Southside. What would have made them happy to stay DT, and not consider leaving? Sorry for the ignorance, I don't come from real estate.

My take:

Paying higher rents for support people that mostly work virtually from either the office or from home doesn't make sense.  Add, from a recruiting standpoint, many support people, with lower incomes, can't afford to pay for downtown parking, etc. so they would prefer the suburbs.  They may also trend younger meaning they have young kids that they want to be closer to for their schools and where they live.

Higher paid, customer facing executives, probably lean older and with higher incomes so working Downtown isn't as much of an issue and makes more sense when interacting with customers at a high level.

I think these same dynamics work for a HQ's.  HQ's tend to have larger numbers at the upper levels of a company's payroll and personnel so more likely to populate a Downtown building.

Quote from: Jax_Developer on August 12, 2026, 12:39:00 PM

Quote from: acme54321 on August 12, 2026, 11:46:55 AM

Quote from: Jax_Developer on August 11, 2026, 12:48:39 PMBarnett Bank sold for $15.5B in 1997... just think about that number in today's context. That is, by far, larger than any Fortune 500 locally in 2026, inflation adjusted of course.

Is it?  CSX?  FIS?

Look up the value of Barnett bank compared to the major banks at the time & you'll have your answer. CSX is the last man standing really..

Good point. Just on purely inflation alone using the CPI, $15.5 billion is $30.6 billion now. That's a larger market cap than FIS ($22 billion). But like you said, banks have far outperformed inflation in that time. Chase is up 20x, BOA 10x, Wells 9x, US Bank 7x, and Citi 3.6x. 

Barnett was bought up by BOA. We can't assume it would have gone up 10x since 1997 like BOA did, but based on all the other banks, it's likely that it would have done much more than just doubled through inflation. Barnett had 20% of all deposits in Florida in 1997. Had it stayed the Publix of Florida banking, it likely would have grown substantially as the state has become even more populated and received a substantially higher number of well off residents. It would have also be a major prestige company in Jax too.

Haven't really thought of Barnett in a long time, but you are right that it was a huge loss.

There's been a lot of talk on MJ about the lack of historic preservation greatly hurting Downtown (and rightly so), but probably not enough about the loss of major corporate anchors downtown. The City got absolutely brutalized by banking and insurance mergers, and other closures. If you have all the below companies in their prime, fundraising for the new MOSH would have been a cakewalk, the downtown office market is strong, downtown restaurant/entertainment scene is more vibrant, urban core neighborhoods stronger. Basically, it's a different city.


-Barnett (built the Barnett building in 1990 as Jax's signature building). Had they stayed, would they have ultimately built another signature tower? At minimum, they are filling the current Barnett building with tons of high paying employees, and been a massive corporate benefactor.
-Charter Company (#61 in Fortune 500 in 1984) was in the JEA Building (Universal-Marion Building)
-Independent Life who built Independent Life Building in 1974. Sold in 1995 and operations moved to Nashville.
-Atlantic National Bank
-Florida National Bank
 -Stein Mart

Then you have Southern Bell and Prudential also downsizing their downtown operations.

^ Add SWD (Top 5 U.S. mortgage bankers, real estate, insurance (and their spin off, Computer Power, formerly Alltel, and now known as Black Knight/ICE), Independent Life, Gulf Life, American Heritage/Allstate (one of the early movers from Downtown), Florida Title, Duval, Fidelity and First Federal Savings and Loans, Brockway Glass, Interline/HD Supply, some other niche title and insurance companies, etc.

We also use to host regional offices for Fortune 500 companies like IBM (now the Suddath building), Southern Bell/Bellsouth and Prudential (as you noted) that actually got involved in Jax civic affairs as major employers here.  Today, we either have lost those regional offices to consolidations, often to Atlanta, or, if still here, they just don't participate locally like they used to.

And, the State consolidating all its Jax regional offices off Davis Street.  Now, JSO and JTA are on the edges of the core, too.

Death by a thousand knife cuts.

Spot on JLT... when you add that list to CL's list, it paints a picture of a hollowed out the big business community is. Imagine the sheer spending those businesses would bring today.

Barnett Bank is a crazy what if... In 2026, we are seeing insane growth from big banks in big Florida cities. Imagine how 'Florida's Bank' would have been positioned (if they survived 08). Even removing them, theres about a dozen players that also sold out to larger regional companies over a 20-year period.

I wonder: what primarily fills up downtown Savannah and downtown Charleston, which never tore down large numbers of buildings in urban renewal the way lots of cities including Jax did? My impression, with all their low buildings, is it isn't major offices of banks and corporations. Those are probably in suburban office parks in those markets. I also get the idea downtown living is in demand, because Gateway Jax never would've gotten financing to build Pearl Street if it weren't. And look at all the apartments going up, particularly in Brooklyn. So why is it in demand?
Answers to those questions are key to figuring out what will turn downtown Jacksonville into a great place. Also, I think key to rebuilding downtown is U of Florida Jax, in LaVilla.

Quote from: Aristocles on August 12, 2026, 06:40:46 PMI wonder: what primarily fills up downtown Savannah?

SCAD's presence is massive, and cannot be understated in regards to downtown Savannah's vibrancy. Versus being a standalone thing, their campus is embedded deeply into the entire historic district. 70 historic structures. Have done a lot of work with them over the years, and it's incredible to see how much they activate that city. Film fest. Fashion week. Constant events. Would be a VERY different city without them.

Quote from: Aristocles on August 12, 2026, 06:40:46 PMI wonder: what primarily fills up downtown Savannah and downtown Charleston, which never tore down large numbers of buildings in urban renewal the way lots of cities including Jax did? My impression, with all their low buildings, is it isn't major offices of banks and corporations. Those are probably in suburban office parks in those markets. I also get the idea downtown living is in demand, because Gateway Jax never would've gotten financing to build Pearl Street if it weren't. And look at all the apartments going up, particularly in Brooklyn. So why is it in demand?
Answers to those questions are key to figuring out what will turn downtown Jacksonville into a great place. Also, I think key to rebuilding downtown is U of Florida Jax, in LaVilla.

My old man called the the Charleston strategy of urban development - you go through a lengthy period of torpor in an area where you aren't getting new uses coming in... but you also aren't tearing things down. If you hold out until all the old buildings move past being "outdated" and "decrepit" to where they're perceived to be "historic" and "valuable", you can make that part of your identity. It worked out for Riverside-Avondale for years and it's working in Springfield now. Even in our Downtown there are more historic bones than in some other places like Charlotte or Orlando. Our bigger issue has been lack of followthrough and vision holding Downtown back.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on August 12, 2026, 08:25:03 PM

Quote from: Aristocles on August 12, 2026, 06:40:46 PMI wonder: what primarily fills up downtown Savannah?

SCAD's presence is massive, and cannot be understated in regards to downtown Savannah's vibrancy. Versus being a standalone thing, their campus is embedded deeply into the entire historic district. 70 historic structures. Have done a lot of work with them over the years, and it's incredible to see how much they activate that city. Film fest. Fashion week. Constant events. Would be a VERY different city without them.

My wife's cousin is at SCAD now. It's incredible to see how much of an impact they have on the historic district - and to do it with buildings scattered throughout it rather than gobbling the whole place up like a lot of colleges do.

Oh the things you can do when you charge $45k a year for tuition!

Quote from: Tacachale on August 12, 2026, 09:31:32 PMMy old man called the the Charleston strategy of urban development - you go through a lengthy period of torpor in an area where you aren't getting new uses coming in... but you also aren't tearing things down. If you hold out until all the old buildings move past being "outdated" and "decrepit" to where they're perceived to be "historic" and "valuable", you can make that part of your identity. It worked out for Riverside-Avondale for years and it's working in Springfield now. Even in our Downtown there are more historic bones than in some other places like Charlotte or Orlando. Our bigger issue has been lack of follow through and vision holding Downtown back.

Bingo! Neither Savannah nor Charleston underwent the level of late 20th century urban renewal that Jax's core did. Both were economically in the dumps during that period of time.  Both were still super dense in the 1980s when I was growing up. They both were also the hood. You didn't see many white people walking around on the streets back in those days swiping credit cards on overpriced goods and services without worrying about the balance. Forsythe Park wasn't a spot where tourist frolic and SCAD kids play pick up soccer games. You were more likely to get robbed than purchase crafts from a weekend arts market.

LaVilla and Springfield had a similar vibe back then, during the height of the crack cocaine epidemic. I remember a time when you didn't want to stop at the light at 8th and Main. Unfortunately, LaVilla got knocked down in the mid-1990s as people, a few years before the movement back to urban cores across the country really heated up.  Much of the downtown core also fell to the wrecking ball during the 70s, 80s and 90s. Springfield survived and has become popular once again.

Gentrification over the past 30 years has made both Savannah and Charleston popular tourist destinations, which fuels their service industries (neither has much of a corporate central business district). I'd argue they both basically resemble what Jacksonville would have possibly become if much of that building stock that lasted into the early 1990s would have made it to the 21st century.

Quote from: CityLife on August 12, 2026, 01:48:31 PMThere's been a lot of talk on MJ about the lack of historic preservation greatly hurting Downtown (and rightly so), but probably not enough about the loss of major corporate anchors downtown. The City got absolutely brutalized by banking and insurance mergers, and other closures. If you have all the below companies in their prime, fundraising for the new MOSH would have been a cakewalk, the downtown office market is strong, downtown restaurant/entertainment scene is more vibrant, urban core neighborhoods stronger. Basically, it's a different city.


-Barnett (built the Barnett building in 1990 as Jax's signature building). Had they stayed, would they have ultimately built another signature tower? At minimum, they are filling the current Barnett building with tons of high paying employees, and been a massive corporate benefactor.
-Charter Company (#61 in Fortune 500 in 1984) was in the JEA Building (Universal-Marion Building)
-Independent Life who built Independent Life Building in 1974. Sold in 1995 and operations moved to Nashville.
-Atlantic National Bank
-Florida National Bank
 -Stein Mart

Then you have Southern Bell and Prudential also downsizing their downtown operations.

The Jaxson owners were talking about this some time ago, but it must have not been on the forum (or I can't find it). This is one of the biggest drags on Downtown today. All these office buildings were constructed for big companies that later left, so we've got a lot more office space than we can fill easily. The same problem is a drag even on places like Orlando despite how vibrant their downtown is in other ways, so it's easy to see how it can hold a place like DT Jax back.

Converting some to residential will help, but that isn't easy.

We wrote about this as early as 2010.....16 years ago!!!

https://archive.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-oct-an-empty-feeling-inside-the-walls-of-downtown

There are more old articles! I just can't remember the titles at the moment to find them.

Another one from 2015. Its been over a decade since this editorial was written. The problem is still the same. At some point, there needs to be some real strategy implemented to address the issue:

Quote(https://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4284505824_dGHS2BC-800x1000.jpg)

During the late 20th century, changes in the nation's business policies and practices dramatically impacted our central business districts. Some, like Charlotte and Houston, came out as winners. Others like New Orleans and Jacksonville were dealt blows they're still working hard to overcome today. Ever wonder why Downtown Jacksonville has too much office space on its hands? Believe it or not, it has nothing to do with local leadership or the popularity of our rapidly growing suburbs.

https://archive.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-aug-seven-decisions-that-killed-downtown

Quote from: Tacachale on August 12, 2026, 09:31:32 PM

Quote from: Aristocles on August 12, 2026, 06:40:46 PMI wonder: what primarily fills up downtown Savannah and downtown Charleston, which never tore down large numbers of buildings in urban renewal the way lots of cities including Jax did? My impression, with all their low buildings, is it isn't major offices of banks and corporations. Those are probably in suburban office parks in those markets. I also get the idea downtown living is in demand, because Gateway Jax never would've gotten financing to build Pearl Street if it weren't. And look at all the apartments going up, particularly in Brooklyn. So why is it in demand?
Answers to those questions are key to figuring out what will turn downtown Jacksonville into a great place. Also, I think key to rebuilding downtown is U of Florida Jax, in LaVilla.

My old man called the the Charleston strategy of urban development - you go through a lengthy period of torpor in an area where you aren't getting new uses coming in... but you also aren't tearing things down. If you hold out until all the old buildings move past being "outdated" and "decrepit" to where they're perceived to be "historic" and "valuable", you can make that part of your identity. It worked out for Riverside-Avondale for years and it's working in Springfield now. Even in our Downtown there are more historic bones than in some other places like Charlotte or Orlando. Our bigger issue has been lack of followthrough and vision holding Downtown back.

^ This!  Charleston, Savannah... Add Asheville, same story. (Only big company I noticed in Asheville is the Biltmore Companies.)  Everything else is Art Deco revival. Locally, I would add the Rail Yard District to Riverside and Springfield.  At this point, maybe even San Marco.  At the beach, Atlantic Beach.  Communities that still have most of their "old time" character.

I could name a hundred other "once overlooked" towns and cities of all sizes where they got locked in a time warp and now, having historic character, are charming and popular places to both live and visit.  Arguably, closer to home, you could say that about Fernandina and St. Augustine.  I've been to countless small towns that are booming for the same reasons.

Jax was an overlooked city but we messed up by tearing down our history, trying to be a wannabe Atlanta or even New York.  Just crazy.

I wonder if we didn't have consolidation, and the urban core suffered economically as time passed by, if, today, most of our historic buildings would still be around.  All the post-consolidation "urban renewal" did little to grow Downtown.  Most of the "new investment" was by existing Downtown companies, not ones from the outside world.  The tortoise and the hare... maybe the tortoise would have been the long time winner.

Unlike Savannah and Charleston, both of which have annexed quite a bit of suburban land, its highly likely that if consolidation did not happen and if we maintained our 30-square-mile developed limits, the city would have eventually fallen into the economic fall that a Detroit, Youngstown, OH experienced. We'd have more historic building stock, but not the resources or tax base to do much about it.

Before I retired, I did business in both Savannah and Charleston at least twice a month. Yes, SCAD in Savannah and tourism in both are big employment drivers in the DT areas. I was surprised when many young, employed people said they preferred Jax DT. It was real DT with office buildings and "real jobs". Surprisingly a lot of Savannah and Charleston residents did not like the tourism (short term rentals being a huge problem). I agree recruiting more business DT is the best approach. Corp and regional HQ may be difficult being in the same state as Miami. Small, medium sized and our own suburban companies need to be targeted. Stop supporting the suburbs completely. Most of those businesses would move or build without the support. We need to press forward with the current plan to make DT a safe, clean, well maintained and enjoyable place to live and visit.

Met Park Marina is now open, with the restaurant and Marina Shop looking to be getting close as well:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/aug/12/met-park-marina-opens-expanding-boat-access-to-downtown-near-everbank-stadium/

Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2026, 11:39:56 PMAnother one from 2015. Its been over a decade since this editorial was written. The problem is still the same. At some point, there needs to be some real strategy implemented to address the issue:

Quote(https://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4284505824_dGHS2BC-800x1000.jpg)

During the late 20th century, changes in the nation's business policies and practices dramatically impacted our central business districts. Some, like Charlotte and Houston, came out as winners. Others like New Orleans and Jacksonville were dealt blows they're still working hard to overcome today. Ever wonder why Downtown Jacksonville has too much office space on its hands? Believe it or not, it has nothing to do with local leadership or the popularity of our rapidly growing suburbs.

https://archive.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-aug-seven-decisions-that-killed-downtown

Great article. Thanks for linking.

Thanks! When you look at the skyline, the impact of the loss of large companies locally headquarters is clearly visible. We went from a rapidly growing skyline to one frozen in the 1990s as mergers and acquisitions sent our jobs and civic pride to cities like Houston and Charlotte. Now we have an increasing glut of aging buildings and space we need to backfill.

Continuing about downtown Charleston and Savannah, what I noticed about both is the continuity of neighborhood through the areas considered to be downtown. Meaning, you go from what would definitely be considered a neighborhood to what's definitely considered downtown without crossing an obvious fault line of abandoned properties bordering the downtown like in Jax. In Charleston you're definitely downtown when you're on King Street, and in Savannah when you're on Broughton. But then, as you head further away from those streets, when do you "leave downtown"? Maybe there's technically a block you enter or street you cross when you're not considered in downtown anymore, but otherwise you'll never know it. The streets are all densely developed with houses, stores and other uses so you have the sense that the whole inner city is being used and lived in, rather than abandoned. This isn't to say that there aren't blocks that are mostly offices and very empty at night, but they tend to be small areas like that here and there, not block after block after block of office buildings and parking lots like we have in downtown here.
Also, an observation about Atlanta, a much larger city and one with a big corporate community in downtown and midtown. For years it had parking lots all over much of downtown and midtown, like Jax. But they became filled in with multifamily housing to the point that, especially on the east side of Midtown by Piedmont Avenue, you get the continuity of neighborhood that you get in Charleston and Savannah. As you go east of Peachtree towards and then across Piedmont the high density downtown-type of development slowly gets lower and eventually fades into the single family home neighborhood of Virginia Highland, with perfect continuity.
Now, what's the policy implication for Jax? Identify the areas around the downtown that are underdeveloped and try to fill them with the urban style development that will allow the downtown to blend with the areas around it. Actually this is already being done, particularly by Gateway Jax.
One more thing: it may be emotionally hard to take, but don't worry about what the skyline looks like. Make the downtown good, not tall. In fact, tall buildings can be bad in many cases. They require large amounts of parking and utilities, are expensive to construct, and aren't feasible in any except the most in demand locations. Instead, try to fill up downtown with buildings that look like Vandeveer and you'll get a place that's much better.
 

Quote from: Aristocles on August 15, 2026, 02:35:20 PMContinuing about downtown Charleston and Savannah, what I noticed about both is the CONTINUITY OF NEIGHBORHOOD through the areas considered to be downtown. Meaning, you go from what would definitely be considered a neighborhood to what's definitely considered downtown without crossing an obvious fault line of abandoned properties bordering the downtown like in Jax. In Charleston you're definitely downtown when you're on King Street, and in Savannah when you're on Broughton. But then, as you head further away from those streets, when do you "leave downtown"? Maybe there's technically a block you enter or street you cross when you're not considered in downtown anymore, but otherwise you'll never know it. The streets are all densely developed with houses, stores and other uses so you have the sense that the whole inner city is being used and lived in, rather than abandoned. This isn't to say that there aren't blocks that are mostly offices and very empty at night, but they tend to be small areas like that here and there, not block after block after block of office buildings and parking lots like we have in downtown here.

This is the physical impact of those cities being economically stagnant during the second half of the 20th century. Much of the urban renewal that booming Sunbelt cities like Jacksonville experienced, did not take place as much in the stagnant cities. Locally, we lost significant building stock in all of the neighborhoods surrounding downtown...LaVilla, Hansontown, Cathedral District, East Jacksonville, Brooklyn, etc. These are areas where infill is needed (already underway in LaVilla and Brooklyn). Minneapolis, Houston, and Charlotte are all decent examples for Jax to follow, as they experienced a similar amount of urban renewal but have been very successful at turning those 1970s and 1980s blocks of surface parking lots into vibrant mixed-use neighborhoods on the edge of the their traditional business districts. 

QuoteNow, what's the policy implication for Jax? Identify the areas around the downtown that are underdeveloped and try to fill them with the urban style development that will allow the downtown to blend with the areas around it. Actually this is already being done, particularly by Gateway Jax.

Its really easy since we have an economy. Have a coordinated plan for the future, linked to funding for incremental public infrastructure investment and stick to it. This should also involve being more intentional to save and incorporate unique elements of our remaining built environment, which ultimately results in vibrant settings that have a unique sense of place. Pearl Square by Gateway Jax is an example of this. I'd also throw in being strategic with the incentives process to take advantage of opportunities to boost the vision and overall market.

Many people talk about how downtown Detroit has changed over the last 20 years. While they had a plan, it was boosted by key local companies investing by relocating their corporate headquarters from the burbs, back to that city's core, which helped the market for infill and adaptive reuse for lodging, housing, retail, dining, etc. They also got strategic with incentives and essentially paid professionals to move to the core.

QuoteOne more thing: it may be emotionally hard to take, but don't worry about what the skyline looks like. Make the downtown good, not tall. In fact, tall buildings can be bad in many cases. They require large amounts of parking and utilities, are expensive to construct, and aren't feasible in any except the most in demand locations. Instead, try to fill up downtown with buildings that look like Vandeveer and you'll get a place that's much better.

Yes, if we focus on mastering the basics, the skyline will take care of itself.

So gets us back to the original point: is investing in housing and amenities DT worth it, or should we incentivize businesses to locate DT from SS or outside the city. I really think the loss of a corporate workforce downtown sucks, but it is a national reality. I still read Philly and Pittsburgh news since my family is there and they suffer it too, but if DT is not (a location), who would want their company there, especially if the cost and convenience is better in the suburbs. It's just business. The ones that stay are locals that want to support DT, but why would BOA care? Boosting residential units downtown will also bring the amenities and sense of place. When that happens, businesses won't even need the incentives. If you get a large HQ relocation, so be it.
I also bring this up because it is the rationale for many on City Council. Some even compared areas around the Town Center not asking for incentives for housing. It is a stupid comparison, but that is how they think.

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on August 15, 2026, 03:31:18 PMSo gets us back to the original point: is investing in housing and amenities DT worth it, or should we incentivize businesses to locate DT from SS or outside the city.

^This is where the master plan no one wants to do is needed. This town has no real unified community vision for what it wants downtown to be. Without vision, we'll keep spinning in circles and waste a ton of public money in the process. When there's a visioning process that includes real community involvement and consensus building, we'll be able to develop a targeted strategy to turn the vision into reality.

QuoteI really think the loss of a corporate workforce downtown sucks, but it is a national reality. I still read Philly and Pittsburgh news since my family is there and they suffer it too, but if DT is not (a location), who would want their company there, especially if the cost and convenience is better in the suburbs. It's just business.

Can't speak to Philly and Pittsburgh or the private sector but the city can make sure its public jobs stay in the core. This means not only keeping entities like DCPS in downtown, but also getting strategic around where to place them. From a private perspective, this is what Dan Gilbert did with his own business empire in downtown Detroit.

QuoteThe ones that stay are locals that want to support DT, but why would BOA care?

Perhaps some strategy should go into investing in and building up your own local companies. Just like the Independent Life, Gulf Life, Barnett Bank, etc., they'll care more because this is their home. You can still see this today with EverBank, FIS, CSX, and VyStar.

QuoteSome even compared areas around the Town Center not asking for incentives for housing. It is a stupid comparison, but that is how they think.

Very stupid because the construction of highways like Butler Blvd and I-295 East Beltway to create economic development opportunities is the exact definition of public incentives. Town Center is still a cow pasture today if billions in public funds aren't used to make that land more accessible.

QuotePerhaps some strategy should go into investing in and building up your own local companies. Just like the Independent Life, Gulf Life, Barnett Bank, etc., they'll care more because this is their home. You can still see this today with EverBank, FIS, CSX, and VyStar

This is interesting. I would love a story on this, or what a Masterplan should look include to make it watertight. What needs to be included. My fear is that once companies get big enough, they fold into a more powerful company and relocate. How is this built into the incentives? Would a Masterplan address this?

Quote from: Aristocles on August 15, 2026, 02:35:20 PMContinuing about downtown Charleston and Savannah, what I noticed about both is the continuity of neighborhood through the areas considered to be downtown. Meaning, you go from what would definitely be considered a neighborhood to what's definitely considered downtown without crossing an obvious fault line of abandoned properties bordering the downtown like in Jax.

I totally agree with your observation, Aristocles.  Unfortunately, I think Downtown has two issues to overcome in this regard (as there are many others as frequently discussed on the Jaxson):

(1) Geography.  The core is surrounded by the river on two sides, Hogan's creek mostly to the north and I-95 to the west.  Finding more ways to connect past these points needs to looked at.  More watertaxi crossings for the river, improved street, pedestrian and bicycle paths north and west (and, for the latter two, over the river also).  Some of this is being addressed with the Emerald Trail and the Fuller Warren multiuse path now in place but more may be needed.

(2) Downtown Connectivity.  Aside from (1) above, the Core is poorly connected to surrounding areas due to little or no real robust mass transit connecting the innards of the greater urban core and virtually no effort by the likes of DIA and Downtown Vision to "invite" surrounding areas to participate in the Core.  They are too inward focused and appear to totally ignore areas on the fringe of their "jurisdictions."  This makes the Core essentially an island that stands or falls on its own merits, not one that collaborates with others in the greater urban area to make 1 + 1 = 3 or more.

No one thinks of the issues like this because we have no overall strategy and no master plan.  We just randomly ping pong about town, usually chasing one-off projects, without thinking much about such synergies.

I don't think geography and downtown connectivity are problems in Jax. Neither Savannah nor Charleston have much mass transit and Charleston with its rivers has about the worst connectivity imaginable this side of Manhattan (which I might add is a pretty vibrant downtown ;D ). About Lakelander saying Charleston and Savannah didn't participate in urban renewal because they were stagnant, maybe this is true and maybe not - I don't have the data. Lots of cities that are stagnant now participated in urban renewal but when urban renewal was going on (1949 until 1973) they may not have been (e.g., Youngstown, Dayton, Flint, etc.). But I'm wondering if this is a side issue because my understanding was Charleston and Savannah were ideologically opposed to urban renewal while most other cities weren't, with this opposition allowing them to dodge the bullet that hit so many other places.
Anyway, a huge problem is we subsidize urban fringe development. Lakelander has it absolutely right when he says that if we didn't subsidize projects like 295E Town Center would still be pasture. Subsidies like these encourage businesses to take advantage of them by leaving congested cores for pastures made greener at taxpayer's expense. I'm not opposed to urban fringe development, but if you want to do it, pay the freight. Don't sit there building 600 home subdivisions with one access point onto two lane arterials and then say "people neeeeeeeed another $700 million in tax money to widen these arterials because of the crazy traffic". If the people doing the building were more responsible for the costs of doing it, inner city locations would become more advantageous costwise with less outflow of business from the center of town. And for crying out loud, design things more in a grid. I know everyone wants to live on his very own cul de sac but I'm sick of big subdivisions having one access point out to the same stinking road everyone else has to use, so you end up having to wait through three cycles of the light just to make it through the intersection. Street grids help alleviate this by giving drivers alternative routes.
Meanwhile, notwithstanding the losses there still seems to be a lot in downtown Jax that could provide demand for the Vandeveer-type buildings. FSCJ, FIS, City of Jax, Duval County and Federal Courthouses, State of Florida offices, U of Jax Law School, the three hospitals (UF, St. Vincent, Baptist), DCPS, and the future U of F Jax campus could all be demand generators. Young professionals would primarily be the tenants, as well as people at the other end of their careers (e.g., Ashley Street senior citizen housing). While many people in the middles of their careers tend to get married, have families and want more space and therefore might not be good as a market for high-density downtown housing, when they eventually become empty nesters they might want to move back into town. Also for people wanting to live downtown but wanting home ownership, the apartment buildings could be converted into condominiums to the extent the market demands.
Everybody's talking about the need for a downtown plan. Agreed, and I feel like I'm writing some of its policies here.

^Youngstown, Dayton and Flint (at least those three), were economically sound until the steel and auto industries started shutting down their plants and mills in the late 1970s and 80s. Youngstown is well known for Black Monday in 1977 when Youngstown Sheet and Tube abruptly closed, laying off thousands at once. Another 50,000 manufacturing jobs went away in that city over the next 5 years. Michael Moore has a pretty good documentary about GM's 1980s closings in Flint and their failed revitalization attempts from that era. Those three cities in particular, were peers of Jax through the 1960s. Savannah and Charleston had already been surpassed decades earlier. Savannah and Charleston have a different story than the rust belt cities.

IMO, a big factor that has hurt Jacksonville's shift to recreation is largely because our downtown is set back pretty far from the Beaches (unlike other FL & SE downtowns). The River is certainly a working waterfront and I believe this effect is understated in these conversations.

Savannah is similar sure but they also have a top 3 US port... so the economic conversation is apples & oranges.

^Downtown Norfolk is a decent comparable to downtown. Its a similar distance from Virginia Beach, as DT Jax is to Jax Beach. Its been a few years since I was there but its downtown was more compact and active at the time. It had a decent amount of well maintained waterfront parks as well. Here are a few pictures from July 2023:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-bWQZHMn/0/Nd69F8XX8rF79LZ93wsBQpHMH9STFtVmLR7FMjs75/X2/20230714_174938-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-FMNSsZQ/0/K2vWq7gCQ72t2HCPLPGG9bPDHkcXJ6pQzdHP3xQmz/X2/20230714_175242-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-mf65GLF/0/Ks5pSr5QJZnDXf2bBQmPLzvhrtBqbt7cJVNwS5QgF/X2/20230714_191653-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-cHPBLv4/0/KFbjN25FnjSzChHFchJKj4SmcGCsNQ7KjkCxB29r8/X2/20230714_191852-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-qJTVtPb/0/MXHz6n4tRrjGDpvFvHtf2wVX4FWzChgntQCLfbLXs/X2/20230714_191843-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-wbVHxz5/0/M7p8krqL8KsmRZn66tBMvg3dTdJTNbJJ68K3nVCzf/X2/20230714_191914-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-mGmGw3F/0/KF2qbSVQtw4GCNdGbFmwqrZtHnKQPvKtTFjd3JQdH/X2/20230714_192850-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-Xnjb8XF/0/MP8v8RvW63kSXqj87LQCdD3rzjq2bfKgCWJWz5vrv/X2/20230714_193239-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-zBz3Dp2/0/LXBjfdfj7TDwQ9ZzVF5bcJmQsQWfRmK9WCB95KpJ3/X2/20230714_193355-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-2qdtRsB/0/MDBqxWcb9nMQ6HFzfxswHzsj88TDjV5GQSDW7c7s4/X2/20230714_220520-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-TRZpg5X/0/KKMkDMDdn8VKrNVw5zLddFXhwtrTncXs7hD8hZvTj/X2/20230716_122727-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-4ZG4hzD/0/KdxjBwpmmvtXCGhCwpczRs3v2HpPqTcBBVbp2BDvM/X2/20230716_123711-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Norfolk---July-2023/i-3wQjnmx/0/Kq4qFdHwpCjWjfM2ckGFH3pmkcDVLh4x6tSz4SXxf/X2/20230717_151522-X2.jpg)

Ironically, another military/logistics hub. Just a brief look at the two... they have a lot of similarities. Their biggest local company being Norfolk Southern lol.

Looks like Becovic just bought 11 East and the Carling:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/aug/16/vestcor-confirms-downtown-sale-of-11-east-and-the-carling-to-becovic/

Quote from: Steve on August 17, 2026, 08:33:15 AMLooks like Becovic just bought 11 East and the Carling:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2026/aug/16/vestcor-confirms-downtown-sale-of-11-east-and-the-carling-to-becovic/

What is the general confidence level in Becovic? I was looking at their portfolio earlier, and it really doesn't seem like they have much prior experience with historic buildings or high-rises, for that matter. It is somewhat concerning to me that an increasing number of our notable historic buildings are being acquired by them despite the lack of an obvious track record of success with this type of work.

I am willing to admit my ignorance regarding the company, and I would be interested in hearing what the rest of you—particularly those who may have more knowledge of Becovic—think about the situation.

I believe the Becovic Group is working with Avant Construction. Avant Construction has done a lot of historic redevelopment projects in downtown, including the Greenleaf & Crosby building and the Federal Reserve building. I'd say they have the right experience, I just hope they have the right amount of money.

I'm getting frustrated and even angry. I sense some people nailing two pieces of wood together so they can crucify Gateway Jax on it. There are news stories about how "good an investment for the taxpayers" the project will be. They're bringing up all kinds of nonsense about "time value of money" and "property values aren't going to increase as much as Bryan Moll anticipates".
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/buyer-beware-or-good-deal-new-questions-emerge-over-publix-anchored-pearl-square-development/ITECYN3GNJBCVK7I6PON3JE7X4/
This is a bogus analysis. Gateway Jax will cause downtown property values to skyrocket and increase the city's tax base ridiculously - if, of course, it's allowed to be built. There's no way Gateway Jax would've gotten the private sector financing for it if it wasn't a good project. As for the government funding component, all similar projects not just in Jacksonville but in cities everywhere use the same thing. It's just being used as an excuse to kill this project because it's a good one.
I also predicted - somewhat facetiously - that Rory Diamond would oppose Gateway Jax. Well now it looks like I was right, he has. 
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/well-be-choosing-between-kids-programs-giving-money-publix-push-back-28m-incentive/4ICUJA7OTJHGJKJOO

Anyone want to know why Jacksonville is really the city of renderings? Because it seems like renderings are all anyone allows around here. They do a hatchet job on the projects when someone tries to make them reality.
If the naysayers kill Gateway Jax, this city will suck as a second rate town for eternity.
You want a good Jacksonville? Don't be envy ridden. This is a good project. Let it get built. Put away the hatchet.

Just watched it. It tells a fraction of the story. Really bad reporting. I would also give incentives to a developer who is finally making things happen vs. the CIA, which as it stands seems to be your typical (pie in sky) development that never materializes. Pull the CIA off the hotel and find some of the many empty spaces downtown, Lavilla, etc. It shows how double-faced council can be, especially when it is a pet project.

^ more seemingly "pie in the sky" proposed projects are on the way. Everything is possible with gap funding/incentives.

Probably not long until the next Kahn asks after they wrap up the hotel. We will see where council stands.

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on August 20, 2026, 09:04:31 AMProbably not long until the next Kahn asks after they wrap up the hotel. We will see where council stands.

Ah, you mention Kahn. As in Shad?
I have a theory about what's going on. I don't want to wrongly implicate anyone who is innocent, so I'll stand corrected if need be. However, I think Shad Khan doesn't like Gateway Jax because it's not in his neck of the woods. He wants the action not in NoDo but in Lot J near the stadium. Okay, if anyone were him, who wouldn't? The problem though is he's probably falling for a fallacy, that it's a zero sum game, it's either Gateway Jax or Lot J. Jax isn't big enough for both.
Not true. In fact, Kahn and Lot J would benefit tremendously if Gateway Jax were built. What Gateway Jax would do is make downtown a more valuable location, maybe to the point that it would become much more expensive. If developers were looking at that point for a cheaper site that would pencil out, that's when Lot J - cheaper because it's out several blocks from the center of the action - becomes attractive. That's when Shad will make the big bucks from Lot J. But kill the downtown now and Lot J never amounts to anything. I could see Shad making this mistake, even pretty innocently. After all, if Donald Trump, a developer extraordinaire for 40+ years, could be fool enough to think he'll lower home prices by making renting single family homes illegal, Shad could fall for the zero sum game error.
As for the CIA, I think it's a good project. But it could end up on the chopping block too. Don't let Saul Alinsky fool you into thinking, when the bad guys isolate their target, they don't have new ones in mind once they take out the current one.
There is definitely a pattern. There were recently stories about how Gateway Jax "won't have housing for the whole community", and then there was the needless flap over the property swap, thank you councilman Salem. This is just the latest.
I have some suspicions over who's the top dog on all this. I've heard there are some people at UNF who are very opposed to gentrification, and I suspect they're throwing sand in the gears here, getting Salem, Diamond, Truth in Accounting, etc. and maybe even Shad, all riled up to kill Gateway Jax. I don't think they'll be successful, because Gateway Jax's underwriters probably anticipated this stuff and still lent the money.

I say this all the time, Jacksonville can't be great because the residents don't want it to be great.

When you have folks like Rory Diamond, Ron Salem, etc in leadership......we constantly shoot ourselves in the foot.


Then you have people like Ron Armstrong who are gaining traction for the mayoral's race by spreading lies and misinformation about downtown development.


It's just a constant political battle which is why downtown Jacksonville continues to lack....

When everyone can get on the same page about downtown, things will come together cohesively

Quote from: Aristocles on August 19, 2026, 10:06:49 PMAnyone want to know why Jacksonville is really the city of renderings? Because it seems like renderings are all anyone allows around here. They do a hatchet job on the projects when someone tries to make them reality.
If the naysayers kill Gateway Jax, this city will suck as a second rate town for eternity.
You want a good Jacksonville? Don't be envy ridden. This is a good project. Let it get built. Put away the hatchet.

^Arist
I don't know if it is that layered. I just don't think they know how cities function. They also lack creativity, taking all queues from Trump and DeSantis. Most just take these positions to climb the MAGA rainbow.

Quote from: Jones518 on August 20, 2026, 07:54:59 PMI say this all the time, Jacksonville can't be great because the residents don't want it to be great.

When you have folks like Rory Diamond, Ron Salem, etc in leadership......we constantly shoot ourselves in the foot.


Then you have people like Ron Armstrong who are gaining traction for the mayoral's race by spreading lies and misinformation about downtown development.


It's just a constant political battle which is why downtown Jacksonville continues to lack....

When everyone can get on the same page about downtown, things will come together cohesively

Quote from: Aristocles on August 19, 2026, 10:06:49 PMAnyone want to know why Jacksonville is really the city of renderings? Because it seems like renderings are all anyone allows around here. They do a hatchet job on the projects when someone tries to make them reality.
If the naysayers kill Gateway Jax, this city will suck as a second rate town for eternity.
You want a good Jacksonville? Don't be envy ridden. This is a good project. Let it get built. Put away the hatchet.

There are enough people fighting for progress that it is attainable. All it takes is breaking the fever and staying at it rather than just calling it a day. I haven't been this optimistic in years!

I don't discount conspiracies when it comes to decisions by our City government starting with certain City council members and a former mayor who obviously work for themselves and pay-to-play friends, not the citizens of Jacksonville.

That said, this is compounded by the lack of a long term, community developed, long range plan for Downtown and the consistent adherence to the plan over long periods of time.  The lack of a "best practice" planning process supports ping pong decisions about the "projects of the day" and gives cover to those elected officials above to promote what benefits them the most.  Meanwhile, increasingly scarce public dollars are invested inconsistently, and perhaps unfairly and/or unnecessarily, without a coherent plan and prioritization/ranking ROI process for both infrastructure and developer driven projects.

And, people wonder why government involvement often makes for poor outcomes in such cases.

Sounds like a long shot, but love the idea of DCPS in LaVilla.

https://jaxtoday.org/2026/08/20/regency-square-eyed-duval-schools-headquarters/

Here we go again. DT is hemorrhaging office workers to the burbs and hybrid employment opportunities. For anyone interested in seeing downtown revitalization happen, there are some industries and institutional anchors we have to ensure don't leave as the market continues to change. Local government and public sector entities are one of those institutional anchors we can control at the local level. But when our own local entities fly the coup, its foolish the fault the private sector for doing the same thing.

Isn't our Downtown office Vacancy rate like 26%? Why are we building buildings downtown?

^Great question....

This is only my guess. But from the sounds of it, they are always looking to buy and own rather than lease. Cheaper that way in the long term - same as renting vs buying a house. If they could buy a vacant office building DT, then that would be the way to go imo. I'm just not sure there is any that fits the space, parking, auditorium space, breakdowns etc what they require - you guys would know.