Metro Jacksonville

QuoteA look at five Downtown projects under construction and four facing an uncertain future.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/sep/29/downtown-development-update-whats-rising-whats-not/

Sounds like the American Lions plan is dead, the city doesn't have money in the CIP for the second phase of Riverfront Park, and any centerpiece sculpture at the site will need to privately funded.

Another well executed plan.

Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now? We all knew Curry and Hughes were lying their butts off years ago. Said then that a "regular" urban park that size would be over $50 million without the promised bells and whistles. American Lions was never a viable project. People hate hearing reality but there's a reason no skyscraper has been built in the Northbank in 33 years. At this point, pad that parcel as a green space that would be a part of the park (not the vacant lot it is right now) and beg Sleiman (lol) to bring back some of the viable mixed use components of the plan developed during the Brown administration. Your real life model to follow is Columbus Commons in Downtown Columbus, OH.

The One Riverside project being delayed due to the City's inability to execute on their piece of the project as promised is another interesting tidbit. It sounds like that one might have the potential to cost the city more if the developer incurs overruns due to the city's failure to perform?

Re: American Lions, is the Deegan administration's opposition to funding the construction loan being driven by the lack of confidence in the estimated construction cost? It makes sense that the CIP would not include phase 2 funding if the administration doesn't believe the tower development will happen as planned. This project could still happen in some form, though: I liked the idea of a renderings graveyard for the signature art piece. How many "Landings" can you install on the civic steps?

Interesting to see the Daily Review doing an update.

The Four Seasons seems to be happening which is good. Hopefully it'll help lay out some commitment so that the final stadium deal isn't too bad.

The Trio seems to be suffering as a project, and it doesn't strike me as especially feasible at this point. Council has to decide if they want to go ahead for the sake of getting the building done or let it get pushed to an indeterminate future.

Johnson Commons and the park seem to be going alright. It'll always be a shame that they didn't win over Vestcor in the beginning and avoid the delay but what's done is done, it's happening.

Doro is closing in on completion, shame it couldn't go anywhere else but again, what's done is done.

Curious what delays FDOT caused with McCoys Creek that have affected One Riverside, and why.

The Southbank project doesn't give me much confidence. A $15 million gap seems pretty concerning. Not to mention the park construction next to it has been effectively dormant.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now? We all knew Curry and Hughes were lying their butts off years ago. Said then that a "regular" urban park that size would be over $50 million without the promised bells and whistles. American Lions was never a viable project. People hate hearing reality but there's a reason no skyscraper has been built in the Northbank in 33 years. At this point, pad that parcel as a green space that would be a part of the park (not the vacant lot it is right now) and beg Sleiman (lol) to bring back some of the viable mixed use components of the plan developed during the Brown administration. Your real life model to follow is Columbus Commons in Downtown Columbus, OH.

It sounds to me like altogether it's something in the $70-80 million range now. If I recall correctly the second phase is supposed to cost about the same as the first, with the statue another several million on top of that, but also that doesn't really factor for apparently needing the tower as part of the structure for the park. I would expect that Sleiman's proposal was fully based on the political and economic environment of 2015, and that given the pandemic and inflation and interest rates that have come into play since wouldn't pencil out anymore without a near-equivalent incentive anyway. Not to mention probably just not wanting to stick his head out downtown after what happened to Brown, even with ultimately making money getting out of the Landing.

Quote from: jaxoNOLE on September 29, 2023, 12:29:25 PM
The One Riverside project being delayed due to the City's inability to execute on their piece of the project as promised is another interesting tidbit. It sounds like that one might have the potential to cost the city more if the developer incurs overruns due to the city's failure to perform?

Reason number xxxx why Jacksonville has a bad wrap for big development. You get a big one actually moving forward, and you fumble the bag. Crazy. I'd be salty.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

Would that $50MM include the pedestrian ramp up to the Main Street Bridge? If I remember correctly, the private developer was supposed to build some or all of that structure/embankment.

Not looking too good for the park kinda stupid not to allow the loan and work with the developer because no one lenders banks are going to fund any developer in Jacksonville or other cities like Tampa. there're also having problems with getting materials and financing. Noco area jones project and a few others are struggling a bit too. If we dont help out with lions even though the are financial capable the still need loans and they leave then we are back to the drawing board with bids for that pad and phase two doesn't happen because it also would have to be redone. So a park that may sit for 5 to 7 more years. Deegan wants to fund more for downtown especially green parks but doesn't want to pay for a good chunk of that money for parks like plaza and shipyards. since shipyards and maybe plaza they said that the parks wont be fully covered with stuff for people to do like pickleball and stuff so alot of things not to be fully built out and water it down. Deegan said she wants more parks and infrastructure to help lower costs of future incentive packages but if you are not funding plaza then that would contradict her words of funding parks to help deals later on. So it is better to work with them and get this done asap instead of collapsing this whole project and loan that was part of that deal otherwise we would look again like jackasses to they rest of developers eyes where they may not want to develop downtown seeing that we can't fund projects.

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:25:14 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/

$200 million for a park is a lot of money. However, when we're talking about transformational spaces, they cost a pretty penny. Otherwise, what we're currently investing will make the existing spaces better. But they won't result in the type of quality or economic payoff that most proponents have advocated for. To get there simply cost money and requires a will to invest in the infrastructure. Eventually, we'll get there with these spaces. However, getting there will take a decade plus more, than if we just had stayed the course back in 2014. Even then, we're not promised that the final product will attract more people to this space than a Landing on its last legs did. So it will be important to plan from a holistic perspective moving forward.

Quote from: Skybox111 on September 29, 2023, 05:27:56 PM
Not looking too good for the park kinda stupid not to allow the loan and work with the developer because no one lenders banks are going to fund any developer in Jacksonville or other cities like Tampa. there're also having problems with getting materials and financing. Noco area jones project and a few others are struggling a bit too. If we dont help out with lions even though the are financial capable the still need loans and they leave then we are back to the drawing board with bids for that pad and phase two doesn't happen because it also would have to be redone. So a park that may sit for 5 to 7 more years.

Perhaps there's no market for a 44-story tower in this space, irresponsible to put taxpayer money into a losing proposition and/or there are better things with a higher ROI worth investing public money into at the moment.

QuoteDeegan wants to fund more for downtown especially green parks but doesn't want to pay for a good chunk of that money for parks like plaza and shipyards. since shipyards and maybe plaza they said that the parks wont be fully covered with stuff for people to do like pickleball and stuff so alot of things not to be fully built out and water it down. Deegan said she wants more parks and infrastructure to help lower costs of future incentive packages but if you are not funding plaza then that would contradict her words of funding parks to help deals later on. So it is better to work with them and get this done asap instead of collapsing this whole project and loan that was part of that deal otherwise we would look again like jackasses to they rest of developers eyes where they may not want to develop downtown seeing that we can't fund projects.

I think our reality is, that there's only so much money you can give away. So some prioritization is needed. Jags want one billion, Gateway wants $135 million, Trio wants millions, RCB wants millions, everybody wants public money. Our reality is that we can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. We can't go back and correct the mistakes of the past, but we can learn from other cities on how to develop first tier public spaces. We're going to have to phase the implementation and be really smart and intentional about it.  If we can do that, when the market improves, we'll be in a better position for more market rate infill development.

I'm over any new Riverfront park space. There are ways to implement greenery within private use spaces. It's called covenants & restrictions to deed. Pretty simple. We also have already dedicated like 80% of the Northbank's riverfront space to "parks" when DT is a ghost town. Nobody talks about the upkeep costs of several dozen acres of Riverfront space. Going to be a financial nightmare until DT reaches critical mass to not make these homeless camps.

Again, nobody cares to question why downtown is a pit of money & how we can change that. Gateway is a silver bullet right now... it'd look pretty bleak otherwise.

The maintenance of green space is a big concern of mine. JTA improved sidewalks along Jefferson,  Broad, Bay, Forsyth, etc. about a decade ago and all of those corridors look pretty shabby now. There are weeds growing in the sidewalk cracks, shoddy looking grass, etc. If we can't maintain and landscape our sidewalks on gateway corridors into downtown, I really wonder about out ability to landscape and maintain our parks.

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:25:14 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/

I'm from Sarasota, went to Junior High and High School there, joined the Navy from there and made it a career, and moved back there in 2004 and lived there until March of 2021. I now am back in North Florida living on 4 acres in Suwannee Valley in Suwannee County. I know all of that area well. Used to fish there and play there when I was a kid, and performed in plays in the purple building in the rendering which is Van Wezel Performing Arts Hall, constructed in 1969 I believe, the same year me and my Parents moved to Sarasota. No comparison. Especially within the last 30 years. I just visited Sarasota twice in the last week and it is totally unrecognizable; money, money, money, you can see it in everything around that City. I started my Agency in 2004, a Social Service Agency I still run. I started the Agency from that Park in the rendering, my first clients, displaced, homeless, etc., were from that area and that Park. So much for the destitute and the vagrants as some call them (disrespectful) who hung out and camped in this Park for decades; where will they go. Sarasota is now a town of about 70,000 people (in the incorporated area), but  there's lots of unincorporated areas around Sarasota and I would guess realistically Sarasota is a City of about 100,000 people now. The skyline, though graced with many 100 to 170 foot skyscrapers, believe it or not, IMO, puts Jax to shame; and don't even get me started on density and "things to do" downtown. Comparing Jax and Sarasota is like comparing a shiny, juicy red delicious apply to a withered, wrinkled dried up prune. There's no comparison. It's obvious the City Leaders in "Sara" gets the job done unlike in our City Jax. Yes, money talks, and bulls**t walks, so true; but, you've got to correctly manage and make do with what you've got, and Jax just doesn't seem to know how to do that. This massive park they're building and renovating on the Bayfront, once it's done, will be something to enjoy and behold, this I can tell. 10 years? I'm 67 now, so I might not be around to see it; you guys might. I'm holding up good, maybe I will. I just wish, and pray that Jax would get it together. I'm rooting for Jax so hard, and have been since my youth when I grew up here. But it seems to be the same old same old; nothing gets done. Renderings, renderings, renderings and nothing gets built. Proposals out the "ying yang," but they never leave the paper or plans and materialize into fruition. Well, I'm tired of waiting. While Jax yawns and sleeps, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Sarasota, Fort Lauderdale, St. Petersburg, and even Tallahassee and Gainesville (and other smaller cities), are leaving Jax in the dust. I guess I'll just go along with the fact that Jax will always, even after I am gone, not ever be the City that it could be or wants and yearns to be. I love Jax. Always will. Had fun times here in my youth after joining the Navy. Fun times. I hope something happens before I leave this Earth and report to Beulah Land. That's all. That's enough now.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 06:02:42 PM
The maintenance of green space is a big concern of mine. JTA improved sidewalks along Jefferson,  Broad, Bay, Forsyth, etc. about a decade ago and all of those corridors look pretty shabby now. There are weeds growing in the sidewalk cracks, snappy looking grass, etc. If we can't maintain and landscape our sidewalks on gateway corridors into downtown, I really wonder about out ability to landscape and maintain our parks.

This is true city-wide. Road projects costing tens to hundreds of millions are completed, landscaping put in...and in 3 months it's all completely overgrown. What a difference merely mowing and weed spraying can make in the perception of an area.

Quote from: heights unknown on September 29, 2023, 09:38:16 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:25:14 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/

I'm from Sarasota, went to Junior High and High School there, joined the Navy from there and made it a career, and moved back there in 2004 and lived there until March of 2021. I now am back in North Florida living on 4 acres in Suwannee Valley in Suwannee County. I know all of that area well. Used to fish there and play there when I was a kid, and performed in plays in the purple building in the rendering which is Van Wezel Performing Arts Hall, constructed in 1969 I believe, the same year me and my Parents moved to Sarasota. No comparison. Especially within the last 30 years. I just visited Sarasota twice in the last week and it is totally unrecognizable; money, money, money, you can see it in everything around that City. I started my Agency in 2004, a Social Service Agency I still run. I started the Agency from that Park in the rendering, my first clients, displaced, homeless, etc., were from that area and that Park. So much for the destitute and the vagrants as some call them (disrespectful) who hung out and camped in this Park for decades; where will they go. Sarasota is now a town of about 70,000 people (in the incorporated area), but  there's lots of unincorporated areas around Sarasota and I would guess realistically Sarasota is a City of about 100,000 people now. The skyline, though graced with many 100 to 170 foot skyscrapers, believe it or not, IMO, puts Jax to shame; and don't even get me started on density and "things to do" downtown. Comparing Jax and Sarasota is like comparing a shiny, juicy red delicious apply to a withered, wrinkled dried up prune. There's no comparison. It's obvious the City Leaders in "Sara" gets the job done unlike in our City Jax. Yes, money talks, and bulls**t walks, so true; but, you've got to correctly manage and make do with what you've got, and Jax just doesn't seem to know how to do that. This massive park they're building and renovating on the Bayfront, once it's done, will be something to enjoy and behold, this I can tell. 10 years? I'm 67 now, so I might not be around to see it; you guys might. I'm holding up good, maybe I will. I just wish, and pray that Jax would get it together. I'm rooting for Jax so hard, and have been since my youth when I grew up here. But it seems to be the same old same old; nothing gets done. Renderings, renderings, renderings and nothing gets built. Proposals out the "ying yang," but they never leave the paper or plans and materialize into fruition. Well, I'm tired of waiting. While Jax yawns and sleeps, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Sarasota, Fort Lauderdale, St. Petersburg, and even Tallahassee and Gainesville (and other smaller cities), are leaving Jax in the dust. I guess I'll just go along with the fact that Jax will always, even after I am gone, not ever be the City that it could be or wants and yearns to be. I love Jax. Always will. Had fun times here in my youth after joining the Navy. Fun times. I hope something happens before I leave this Earth and report to Beulah Land. That's all. That's enough now.

I am with you, Heights.  I recently was in Sarasota and was blown away by their skyline and waterfront.  And, the nonprofit "park", Selby Gardens.  I note that all the high rises are well back from the waterfront and separated by US 41 and more, giving a really nice panoramic view of the area.  Almost all their waterfront seemed to be public access. 

To add, even "exclusive" locations like Long Boat Key and Anna Marie Island had long and frequent street-end public accesses to the beaches in the midst of highly developed areas, unlike our beaches.

I am not with others on this thread. I think parks and greenspace are critical components to promoting development.  People today cannot easily connect with the outdoors.  It is a long commute to reach out beyond the suburbs for an opportunity to commune with nature, which is proven to be good for mental health.  Not to mention exercise for your physical health.  Downtown dwellers will greatly value large greenspaces for walking, jogging, bicycling, dog walking, game playing, meditating, accessing the waterfront and more.  Every major city and more that I have visited provides this.

The American Lions Tower, to me, is a nice building but in the wrong spot.  It looks crammed into that spot and would be jarring to look at, IMHO.  And, in support of my above comment, I don't want to see something like that on publicly owned riverfront land.  Build it back one block and it will do fine.  As such, not unhappy they can't move forward presently.

Watching One Riverside rise, as I expressed previously, looks way too close to the river for its height and size.  This should not be repeated with other developments.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 29, 2023, 11:53:23 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on September 29, 2023, 09:38:16 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:25:14 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 29, 2023, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2023, 11:04:21 AM
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/

I'm from Sarasota, went to Junior High and High School there, joined the Navy from there and made it a career, and moved back there in 2004 and lived there until March of 2021. I now am back in North Florida living on 4 acres in Suwannee Valley in Suwannee County. I know all of that area well. Used to fish there and play there when I was a kid, and performed in plays in the purple building in the rendering which is Van Wezel Performing Arts Hall, constructed in 1969 I believe, the same year me and my Parents moved to Sarasota. No comparison. Especially within the last 30 years. I just visited Sarasota twice in the last week and it is totally unrecognizable; money, money, money, you can see it in everything around that City. I started my Agency in 2004, a Social Service Agency I still run. I started the Agency from that Park in the rendering, my first clients, displaced, homeless, etc., were from that area and that Park. So much for the destitute and the vagrants as some call them (disrespectful) who hung out and camped in this Park for decades; where will they go. Sarasota is now a town of about 70,000 people (in the incorporated area), but  there's lots of unincorporated areas around Sarasota and I would guess realistically Sarasota is a City of about 100,000 people now. The skyline, though graced with many 100 to 170 foot skyscrapers, believe it or not, IMO, puts Jax to shame; and don't even get me started on density and "things to do" downtown. Comparing Jax and Sarasota is like comparing a shiny, juicy red delicious apply to a withered, wrinkled dried up prune. There's no comparison. It's obvious the City Leaders in "Sara" gets the job done unlike in our City Jax. Yes, money talks, and bulls**t walks, so true; but, you've got to correctly manage and make do with what you've got, and Jax just doesn't seem to know how to do that. This massive park they're building and renovating on the Bayfront, once it's done, will be something to enjoy and behold, this I can tell. 10 years? I'm 67 now, so I might not be around to see it; you guys might. I'm holding up good, maybe I will. I just wish, and pray that Jax would get it together. I'm rooting for Jax so hard, and have been since my youth when I grew up here. But it seems to be the same old same old; nothing gets done. Renderings, renderings, renderings and nothing gets built. Proposals out the "ying yang," but they never leave the paper or plans and materialize into fruition. Well, I'm tired of waiting. While Jax yawns and sleeps, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Sarasota, Fort Lauderdale, St. Petersburg, and even Tallahassee and Gainesville (and other smaller cities), are leaving Jax in the dust. I guess I'll just go along with the fact that Jax will always, even after I am gone, not ever be the City that it could be or wants and yearns to be. I love Jax. Always will. Had fun times here in my youth after joining the Navy. Fun times. I hope something happens before I leave this Earth and report to Beulah Land. That's all. That's enough now.

I am with you, Heights.  I recently was in Sarasota and was blown away by their skyline and waterfront.  And, the nonprofit "park", Selby Gardens.  I note that all the high rises are well back from the waterfront and separated by US 41 and more, giving a really nice panoramic view of the area.  Almost all their waterfront seemed to be public access. 

To add, even "exclusive" locations like Long Boat Key and Anna Marie Island had long and frequent street-end public accesses to the beaches in the midst of highly developed areas, unlike our beaches.

I am not with others on this thread. I think parks and greenspace are critical components to promoting development.  People today cannot easily connect with the outdoors.  It is a long commute to reach out beyond the suburbs for an opportunity to commune with nature, which is proven to be good for mental health.  Not to mention exercise for your physical health.  Downtown dwellers will greatly value large greenspaces for walking, jogging, bicycling, dog walking, game playing, meditating, accessing the waterfront and more.  Every major city and more that I have visited provides this.

The American Lions Tower, to me, is a nice building but in the wrong spot.  It looks crammed into that spot and would be jarring to look at, IMHO.  And, in support of my above comment, I don't want to see something like that on publicly owned riverfront land.  Build it back one block and it will do fine.  As such, not unhappy they can't move forward presently.

Watching One Riverside rise, as I expressed previously, looks way too close to the river for its height and size.  This should not be repeated with other developments.

Yes "Jax," I agree; I am a skyscraper fan; but when you're dealing with urbanesque on the water, they should be pushed back at least a thousand feet from the water (IMHO). I for one hope some way, some how the American Lions building gets built, but I agree also, not in that spot. There's lots of other places, a thousand feet or so from the River where it could go. One block/parcel, whatever that comes to mind is that empty lot, now used as a parking lot, next to the Mariott (Omni) and the Enterprise Center (IMO) and my recommendation; it would go good there complementing the Bank of America. They might have to scale the base down from the flaring out, and maybe even make it taller, but that would be an excellent spot in my opinion. Regarding Sarasota, it is jaw dropping and chain pulling what has happened to that place. We moved there in 1969 and it was a sleepy, quiet city of about 30,000, with an extremely "small town feel" outside of winter, with one or two 120 foot scrapers; now it fries the brain to see at least 30 or so 100 to 200 feet mid rise scrapers with packed in your gahunna density and 24/7 things to do, buzz, outside cafes, and entertainment and shopping going on downtown, even on saturdays (and sundays shame on them). But, what can Jax do? There's nothing really I can say or recommend for Jax.

^ Heights, glad to have your agreement  8).

This picture below says it all.  The wood-stick construction is much higher since it was taken, topping out at the top of the garage and stairwells.  You can see just how close the building is to the water.  30 or 40 foot setbacks, as I am guessing, at most, from the picture, are nothing in this scale of construction.  Just a shame this City prostitutes' itself to the whims of every developer that drops by.  And, to think we also have the taxpayers contributing to these ugly projects. 

And, virtually no setback from the side property lines to allow for a substantive vegetative buffer.

To add, I wonder if the City factors in airflows created by these structures.  A strong south wind hitting the face of this structure could have some impacts on the riverwalk in front.  Next door, Haskell at least had the good sense to terrace their building back from the riverfront. Maybe they know something about better design.  Hello?!... Shouldn't the City take a lesson from that?

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2023/09/27/One_Riverside_September_r800x500.jpg?6282b40b45fc69feef75f6b5ff7b0f3040c2c9b4)

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 30, 2023, 01:01:03 PM
^ Heights, glad to have your agreement  8).

This picture below says it all.  The wood-stick construction is much higher since it was taken, topping out at the top of the garage and stairwells.  You can see just how close the building is to the water.  30 or 40 foot setbacks, as I am guessing, at most, from the picture, are nothing in this scale of construction.  Just a shame this City prostitutes' itself to the whims of every developer that drops by.  And, to think we also have the taxpayers contributing to these ugly projects. 

And, virtually no setback from the side property lines to allow for a substantive vegetative buffer.

To add, I wonder if the City factors in airflows created by these structures.  A strong south wind hitting the face of this structure could have some impacts on the riverwalk in front.  Next door, Haskell at least had the good sense to terrace their building back from the riverfront. Maybe they know something about better design.  Hello?!... Shouldn't the City take a lesson from that?

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2023/09/27/One_Riverside_September_r800x500.jpg?6282b40b45fc69feef75f6b5ff7b0f3040c2c9b4)

Yes they should learn a lesson from that.......but they won't take notice or listen.

On the other hand...no answer for me right now LOL. We'll see what doesn't happen next for downtown.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 30, 2023, 01:01:03 PM
^ Heights, glad to have your agreement  8).

This picture below says it all.  The wood-stick construction is much higher since it was taken, topping out at the top of the garage and stairwells.  You can see just how close the building is to the water.  30 or 40 foot setbacks, as I am guessing, at most, from the picture, are nothing in this scale of construction.  Just a shame this City prostitutes' itself to the whims of every developer that drops by.(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2023/09/27/One_Riverside_September_r800x500.jpg?6282b40b45fc69feef75f6b5ff7b0f3040c2c9b4)

Eloquently said. Larger setbacks from the river are something Riverfront Parks Now + Scenic Jacksonville has pushed for continuously with little buy in from COJ or your average developer leadership. It's extremely frustrating to visit other cities that do have higher standards for themselves and see the results. Le sigh.

That thing is like a wall now on the Riverwalk.  Might turn out cool, might not.

I walked by it earlier today. I'd like to see what the feel is when the restaurant and outdoor cafe-style seating are in place.

Don't see much of a problem with it being close. Miami towers all right up to waterfront and doesn't really bother many and its still successful with many hotels and restaurants right there with many people walking and jogging plus many don't look at the buildings next to them some do to look up at a tall tower for a wow but majority look at other the other side to see things like anyone walking by our huge wide river will look at the other side of the river at the skyline. A great view from both sides.  With a wide river a tower wouldn't be close to the other side because its far away. Looking from the Southbank in different areas the distance to the northbank can be 1500 to 2000 ft across.

Quote from: Skybox111 on October 01, 2023, 01:16:13 AM
Don't see much of a problem with it being close. Miami towers all right up to waterfront and doesn't really bother many and its still successful with many hotels and restaurants right there with many people walking and jogging plus many don't look at the buildings next to them some do to look up at a tall tower for a wow but majority look at other the other side to see things like anyone walking by our huge wide river will look at the other side of the river at the skyline. A great view from both sides.  With a wide river a tower wouldn't be close to the other side because its far away. Looking from the Southbank in different areas the distance to the northbank can be 1500 to 2000 ft across.

100% agree.. I really don't understand the narrative around the river setbacks being such a necessity. Building close to the water can be done right as well. If we had more demand DT for dining & entertainment, the proximity of structures to the river can be done in a way that would make the riverfront parks look like a mistake. This is also DT land we are talking about, and the idea of implementing mandatory green space setbacks from the river is a little silly to me. Don't we want our DT land to be dense? Why not allow developers to be creative with the green space requirements... after all... if people are doing their jobs right, a plan with a poor green space detail shouldn't be passed.

We have a chicken & egg predicament... we want developers to go above & beyond the minimum requirements, but we also reduce the economic potential of these same sites. There has to be another, less rigid, solution.

https://floridayimby.com/2023/01/site-plans-filed-for-33-acre-mixed-use-waterfront-development-ybor-harbor-in-tampa.html

Using creative means to create connected green space.

Nows that something i would love to see here shame shipyards couldn't be implemented to that degree instead of all park have residential office hotels and restaurants integrated with it.

Just saw an article in the Daily Record that Cinco de Mayo which was at the Landing will be opening in the old Olio space by year end.

That quote about being kicked out of Landing is horrible. So glad, the people behind that type of foolishness are out of city hall. Kudos to this business for overcoming a business killing situation to take another chance on downtown. It's the small businesses like this that should be getting incentives or help for being forced to close over local petty politics.

This is a nice get for Downtown actually. Inexpensive Mexican right by a large hotel and open dinner hours? Perfect.

And yes, let's kick a business out of the Landing so Curry can play God. Super terrific idea there.

^It's a perfect fit for East Bay Street. I wish they would have been open over the last month. Attended two 1,000 person conferences at the Hyatt and people were looking for food options around the hotel.

Great get for downtown.

Hoping that a solid, lunch time and late-night pizza spot follows soon behind it.

Quote from: Jax_Developer on October 01, 2023, 09:17:07 AM
https://floridayimby.com/2023/01/site-plans-filed-for-33-acre-mixed-use-waterfront-development-ybor-harbor-in-tampa.html

I grew up in Central Florida and have a soft spot in my heart for the what's left of the old school working Channel District waterfront that disappearing. Do you know if that shipyard (International Ship Repair & Marine Services) is relocating or closing?

Update

I found the answer:

QuoteFor years, one of the most closely watched plots of land between Ybor City and Tampa's Channel District has been a privately held 25-acre ship repair site at the north end of Port Tampa Bay, directly south of the Lee Roy Selmon Expressway.

The site may finally have a buyer — and it's a familiar one.

Darryl Shaw, the veterinary entrepreneur turned Ybor City real estate investor, has a deal in place to purchase the land occupied by International Ship Repair and Marine Services, a spokesperson said Wednesday.

The three-parcel property would be purchased in two phases over the next five years. The first, encompassing the north and west sides of the ship repair yard in Ybor Channel, could close in late 2023. The second will take a few more years as International Ship Repair looks to relocate its operations, including 300 employees. Terms of the agreement were not disclosed.

QuoteThe land is owned by a corporation controlled by longtime International Ship Repair owner and influential port figure George Lorton, who died in July; the sale is being managed by a trust in his name. A representative from the trust did not return requests for comment Wednesday afternoon.


The hurdles to moving the ship repair business would be significant, said International Ship Repair senior vice president Hugo Ortiz.

"It's not a matter of saying we will relocate," Ortiz said. "Who will pay for the relocation? Who will find a cheap place to move? Also, the Tampa Port Authority needs to be involved. So there are several factors. It's not (possible) to come with this kind of news to say, 'OK, we want to take over.'"

QuoteOrtiz said it was always Lorton's intent to keep the company at Port Tampa Bay, but it would have to work with the port to find enough available berths along a deep enough channel for relocation. If a channel had to be dredged to get that depth, it would require federal approval.

"Those permits take one year, two years, three years," Ortiz said. "Then you talk about the environmental aspects; that can be another challenge. So it's not easy to say, in two, three years, it's going to be done."

QuoteIt's a historic piece of land. International Ship Repair has operated there for some 40 years, acquiring most of the property in 1995 and 2004 for about $15.6 million, according to Hillsborough Records. The eastern side of the property covered in the sale's second phase once housed Tampa Marine, which built many ships during World War II, said Rodney Kite-Powell of the Tampa Bay History Center.

"Not battleships, more ancillary ships like tenders that were still a very important part of the war effort," he said.

The western part of the property along Channelside was once part of Tampa's banana docks, where longshoremen unloaded bananas from ships to be sent by train and truck to other cities, Kite-Powell said. The docks dated back to the late 1920s and became a sort of tourist attraction, with people gathering to watch the hub of activity there.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/business/2022/08/31/darryl-shaw-to-buy-develop-25-acres-between-ybor-city-port-tampa-bay/#:~:text=The%20first%2C%20encompassing%20the%20north,its%20operations%2C%20including%20300%20employees.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 02, 2023, 07:40:49 PM

Quote from: Jax_Developer on October 01, 2023, 09:17:07 AM
https://floridayimby.com/2023/01/site-plans-filed-for-33-acre-mixed-use-waterfront-development-ybor-harbor-in-tampa.html

I grew up in Central Florida and have a soft spot in my heart for the what's left of the old school working Channel District waterfront that disappearing. Do you know if that shipyard (International Ship Repair & Marine Services) is relocating or closing?

Update

I found the answer:

QuoteFor years, one of the most closely watched plots of land between Ybor City and Tampa's Channel District has been a privately held 25-acre ship repair site at the north end of Port Tampa Bay, directly south of the Lee Roy Selmon Expressway.

The site may finally have a buyer — and it's a familiar one.

Darryl Shaw, the veterinary entrepreneur turned Ybor City real estate investor, has a deal in place to purchase the land occupied by International Ship Repair and Marine Services, a spokesperson said Wednesday.

The three-parcel property would be purchased in two phases over the next five years. The first, encompassing the north and west sides of the ship repair yard in Ybor Channel, could close in late 2023. The second will take a few more years as International Ship Repair looks to relocate its operations, including 300 employees. Terms of the agreement were not disclosed.

QuoteThe land is owned by a corporation controlled by longtime International Ship Repair owner and influential port figure George Lorton, who died in July; the sale is being managed by a trust in his name. A representative from the trust did not return requests for comment Wednesday afternoon.


The hurdles to moving the ship repair business would be significant, said International Ship Repair senior vice president Hugo Ortiz.

"It's not a matter of saying we will relocate," Ortiz said. "Who will pay for the relocation? Who will find a cheap place to move? Also, the Tampa Port Authority needs to be involved. So there are several factors. It's not (possible) to come with this kind of news to say, 'OK, we want to take over.'"

QuoteOrtiz said it was always Lorton's intent to keep the company at Port Tampa Bay, but it would have to work with the port to find enough available berths along a deep enough channel for relocation. If a channel had to be dredged to get that depth, it would require federal approval.

"Those permits take one year, two years, three years," Ortiz said. "Then you talk about the environmental aspects; that can be another challenge. So it's not easy to say, in two, three years, it's going to be done."

QuoteIt's a historic piece of land. International Ship Repair has operated there for some 40 years, acquiring most of the property in 1995 and 2004 for about $15.6 million, according to Hillsborough Records. The eastern side of the property covered in the sale's second phase once housed Tampa Marine, which built many ships during World War II, said Rodney Kite-Powell of the Tampa Bay History Center.

"Not battleships, more ancillary ships like tenders that were still a very important part of the war effort," he said.

The western part of the property along Channelside was once part of Tampa's banana docks, where longshoremen unloaded bananas from ships to be sent by train and truck to other cities, Kite-Powell said. The docks dated back to the late 1920s and became a sort of tourist attraction, with people gathering to watch the hub of activity there.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/business/2022/08/31/darryl-shaw-to-buy-develop-25-acres-between-ybor-city-port-tampa-bay/#:~:text=The%20first%2C%20encompassing%20the%20north,its%20operations%2C%20including%20300%20employees.

I personally really like the plan. Great location of course. It would be nice if Jax had more marina-incorporated projects. I'm not entirely sure why we don't other than I guess demand.

It may be decades away from fruition but it looks similar to the early 2000s version of the Shipyards.

Most recent DIA documents reveal that One Riverside has been significantly delayed (likely one year, plus or minus a few months). Phase 1 completion not required until Sept. 2026. Restaurant is included in that timeline.

(https://dia.coj.net/getattachment/41e4242d-c6f6-4ca8-a079-67a040060804/.aspx)

Where is this restaurant by the fountain supposed to be going?

Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2024, 10:25:05 AM
Most recent DIA documents reveal that One Riverside has been significantly delayed (likely one year, plus or minus a few months). Phase 1 completion not required until Sept. 2026. Restaurant is included in that timeline.

(https://dia.coj.net/getattachment/41e4242d-c6f6-4ca8-a079-67a040060804/.aspx)

Does anyone know any specifics about what happened to delay/extend the McCoys Creek Improvement project?

I believe the hold up here with the Whole Foods and restaurant is that McCoys Creek was supposed to be finished in October 2023, but now isn't scheduled to be completed until the end of 2025.

Force majeure delays, as noted in the above, seem to suggest something wildly unexpected happening. Did it?

Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 06, 2024, 02:14:18 PM

Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2024, 10:25:05 AM
Most recent DIA documents reveal that One Riverside has been significantly delayed (likely one year, plus or minus a few months). Phase 1 completion not required until Sept. 2026. Restaurant is included in that timeline.

(https://dia.coj.net/getattachment/41e4242d-c6f6-4ca8-a079-67a040060804/.aspx)

Does anyone know any specifics about what happened to delay/extend the McCoys Creek Improvement project?

I believe the hold up here with the Whole Foods and restaurant is that McCoys Creek was supposed to be finished in October 2023, but now isn't scheduled to be completed until the end of 2025.

Force majeure delays, as noted in the above, seem to suggest something wildly unexpected happening. Did it?

COJ probably happened

Quote from: acme54321 on May 06, 2024, 03:38:46 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 06, 2024, 02:14:18 PM

Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 06, 2024, 10:25:05 AM
Most recent DIA documents reveal that One Riverside has been significantly delayed (likely one year, plus or minus a few months). Phase 1 completion not required until Sept. 2026. Restaurant is included in that timeline.

(https://dia.coj.net/getattachment/41e4242d-c6f6-4ca8-a079-67a040060804/.aspx)

Does anyone know any specifics about what happened to delay/extend the McCoys Creek Improvement project?

I believe the hold up here with the Whole Foods and restaurant is that McCoys Creek was supposed to be finished in October 2023, but now isn't scheduled to be completed until the end of 2025.

Force majeure delays, as noted in the above, seem to suggest something wildly unexpected happening. Did it?

COJ probably happened

That's right based on what I was told. The city didn't file in time for their ERP permit, and it held up some of the site work.

The One Riverside restaurant isn't located near the creek. I can't imagine it being held up by creek construction.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2024, 04:18:05 PM
The One Riverside restaurant isn't located near the creek. I can't imagine it being held up by creek construction.

Was the retail (restaurant) permit ever issued? I think it's tied up in the FDEP Permit somehow (proximity to the River? or because of the lack of Phase 2 apartments). The project is so delayed beyond its current capacity, because the site was only confirmed by FDEP 2/26/2024. Meaning... they couldn't pull any permits that had any footprint in any environmental area. Add on the current FDEP/USACOE stuff, it seems more complex than what meets the eye.

The restaurant is built into one of the apartment buildings. The shell of it is almost complete. I can't imagine build out of the restaurant is held up by the creek.

Now the Whole Foods doesn't have a lot of activity yet.

That part (Whole Foods) is held up by the reconstruction of the creek.

I might be wrong, but I believe I heard that Whole Foods can't break ground because of delays on the city's end with the creek project (as others noted above), and that the restaurant isn't dependent on the creek project, but is instead dependent on the projected foot traffic from the delayed retail component.

That makes sense. Although, even the Phase 1 apartments seemed delayed (intentionally or not, IDK).

Quote from: thelakelander on May 06, 2024, 04:18:05 PM
The One Riverside restaurant isn't located near the creek. I can't imagine it being held up by creek construction.

The restaurant may be getting a redesign.  I heard that they designed the space without consulting a restaurateur and that it's pretty unusable from a service perspective. 

The creek and section relying on that work — the retail — is what's delayed. That was connected to a permitting issue with FDOT, which has obviously been resolved as the work has been progressing. There's no delay on the rest of it including the residential as that didn't rely on moving the creek.

Will TheJaxsonMag post another downtown/urban development/construction update anytime soon? I would love to see another, it's such a great concise way to see progress downtown.

Yes! We're long overdue. Plan to get one up before the end of the month.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 09, 2024, 09:26:41 AM
Yes! We're long overdue. Plan to get one up before the end of the month.

Wooo! Great!

^I noticed last week that Jersey Mike's is opening up shop in Brooklyn.

Next to Vale.

Jacksonville Coffee Company (which has a few locations scattered around Jax) is apparently opening near Bay & Main in the next month or two.

-

Per the T-U, the DIA really wants to put their muscle into Laura Street, which is awesome.

Sounds like Snyder Memorial will be getting around $4 million in investment (a FANTASTIC idea).

Sounds like the DIA is going to take responsibility for funding a good portion ($12 million) of any completion grant Gateway Jax would need to make their tower on the Landing private development pad work (also fantastic, given the current state of the general fund, and the pushback that vital project would probably get if those dollars were coming out of the city budget).

The one thing I was bummed to hear was that the $1 million set aside for the riverfront restaurant at Riverfront Plaza was moved into Snyder, and that project is on the back burner as the result of pushback from the Council about building and operating the restaurant. Not the end of the world if the Gateway Jax project happens, but really believe that you need as much activation as possible within the park to make it a draw, and the restaurant would have been a big piece of making the park a vibrant and safe space after dark.

Bill, any idea if the same pause in plans applies to the proposed Friendship Fountain restaurant as well?

--

Anyone know what's going on with the Related project on the Southbank? I believe I heard that, if it happens, the completion grant would be paid s they go in chunks, versus as a lump sum at the end. Felt like a very different request than we typically see.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 16, 2025, 10:16:31 AM
Anyone know what's going on with the Related project on the Southbank? I believe I heard that, if it happens, the completion grant would be paid s they go in chunks, versus as a lump sum at the end. Felt like a very different request than we typically see.

The agrement said that they had to be done with final design by 5/30/25.  I think the expectation was a start in 26.  I think the bulkhead work has wrapped up and that had to be completed first.

Quote from: acme54321 on April 16, 2025, 11:54:06 AM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 16, 2025, 10:16:31 AM
Anyone know what's going on with the Related project on the Southbank? I believe I heard that, if it happens, the completion grant would be paid s they go in chunks, versus as a lump sum at the end. Felt like a very different request than we typically see.

The agrement said that they had to be done with final design by 5/30/25.  I think the expectation was a start in 26.  I think the bulkhead work has wrapped up and that had to be completed first.

Thanks for the info!

Quote from: Skybox111 on September 29, 2023, 05:27:56 PM
Not looking too good for the park kinda stupid not to allow the loan and work with the developer because no one lenders banks are going to fund any developer in Jacksonville or other cities like Tampa. there're also having problems with getting materials and financing. Noco area jones project and a few others are struggling a bit too. If we dont help out with lions even though the are financial capable the still need loans and they leave then we are back to the drawing board with bids for that pad and phase two doesn't happen because it also would have to be redone. So a park that may sit for 5 to 7 more years. Deegan wants to fund more for downtown especially green parks but doesn't want to pay for a good chunk of that money for parks like plaza and shipyards. since shipyards and maybe plaza they said that the parks wont be fully covered with stuff for people to do like pickleball and stuff so alot of things not to be fully built out and water it down. Deegan said she wants more parks and infrastructure to help lower costs of future incentive packages but if you are not funding plaza then that would contradict her words of funding parks to help deals later on. So it is better to work with them and get this done asap instead of collapsing this whole project and loan that was part of that deal otherwise we would look again like jackasses to they rest of developers eyes where they may not want to develop downtown seeing that we can't fund projects.

Jackassville?

Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 16, 2025, 10:16:31 AM
Jacksonville Coffee Company (which has a few locations scattered around Jax) is apparently opening near Bay & Main in the next month or two.

-

Per the T-U, the DIA really wants to put their muscle into Laura Street, which is awesome.

Sounds like Snyder Memorial will be getting around $4 million in investment (a FANTASTIC idea).

Sounds like the DIA is going to take responsibility for funding a good portion ($12 million) of any completion grant Gateway Jax would need to make their tower on the Landing private development pad work (also fantastic, given the current state of the general fund, and the pushback that vital project would probably get if those dollars were coming out of the city budget).

The one thing I was bummed to hear was that the $1 million set aside for the riverfront restaurant at Riverfront Plaza was moved into Snyder, and that project is on the back burner as the result of pushback from the Council about building and operating the restaurant. Not the end of the world if the Gateway Jax project happens, but really believe that you need as much activation as possible within the park to make it a draw, and the restaurant would have been a big piece of making the park a vibrant and safe space after dark.

Bill, any idea if the same pause in plans applies to the proposed Friendship Fountain restaurant as well?

--

Anyone know what's going on with the Related project on the Southbank? I believe I heard that, if it happens, the completion grant would be paid s they go in chunks, versus as a lump sum at the end. Felt like a very different request than we typically see.

Southbank still ago. It won't be affected by what's happening with the Landing, which is down to all the moving parts in that deal. Hopefully, the land swap gets through Council and the Landing restaurant can get moving again before too long. If Council decides to do a purchase instead of a land swap, it'll delay things more (and require us to spend millions from the reserves), but either way the hope is to get back to it as soon as feasible.

Quote from: Tacachale on April 17, 2025, 09:24:31 AM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 16, 2025, 10:16:31 AM
Jacksonville Coffee Company (which has a few locations scattered around Jax) is apparently opening near Bay & Main in the next month or two.

-

Per the T-U, the DIA really wants to put their muscle into Laura Street, which is awesome.

Sounds like Snyder Memorial will be getting around $4 million in investment (a FANTASTIC idea).

Sounds like the DIA is going to take responsibility for funding a good portion ($12 million) of any completion grant Gateway Jax would need to make their tower on the Landing private development pad work (also fantastic, given the current state of the general fund, and the pushback that vital project would probably get if those dollars were coming out of the city budget).

The one thing I was bummed to hear was that the $1 million set aside for the riverfront restaurant at Riverfront Plaza was moved into Snyder, and that project is on the back burner as the result of pushback from the Council about building and operating the restaurant. Not the end of the world if the Gateway Jax project happens, but really believe that you need as much activation as possible within the park to make it a draw, and the restaurant would have been a big piece of making the park a vibrant and safe space after dark.

Bill, any idea if the same pause in plans applies to the proposed Friendship Fountain restaurant as well?

--

Anyone know what's going on with the Related project on the Southbank? I believe I heard that, if it happens, the completion grant would be paid s they go in chunks, versus as a lump sum at the end. Felt like a very different request than we typically see.

Southbank still ago. It won't be affected by what's happening with the Landing, which is down to all the moving parts in that deal. Hopefully, the land swap gets through Council and the Landing restaurant can get moving again before too long. If Council decides to do a purchase instead of a land swap, it'll delay things more (and require us to spend millions from the reserves), but either way the hope is to get back to it as soon as feasible.

Great to hear, thanks Bill!

I am praying that this land swap goes through.

I love the recent land disposition for the Cathedral District affordable housing project, and executing a swap for Riverfront Plaza at $0 expense to the general fund over the next 2-3 years feels like an absolute no-brainer.

On Salem's side, you've got:

1. Paying $6 million out of our cash-strapped general fund to try to force downtown's best private partner out of a property they purchased fair and square (ironically, this is the exact same thing we did to Toney Sleiman, and look how well that one turned out).
2. Saying no to a proven, willing developer with a stake in the game, while kicking the can on private development at Riverfront Plaza years down the road, after the first RFP failed to bear any realistic fruit
3. Causing needless, potentially risky delays to UF's plans to launch a graduate campus, during a time of much economic uncertainty.

On the DIA/Gateway/Mayor's side, you've got:

1. A plan to activate both UF and Riverfront Plaza simultaneously, with $0 short-term hit to the general fund.
2. The ability to hit play NOW on UF, versus waiting to see what happens with government funding and the economy.
3. A reputable developer with a fantastic track record and projects underway elsewhere downtown, eager and ready to tackle private development at the Landing, and willing to give the private development pad back at cost if they don't turn dirt in a reasonable amount of time.
4. A hard cap on cash incentives ($20 million, which is significantly lower than the American Lions project that fell apart).
5. An identified funding source for the majority of the incentives (at least $12 million from the DIA).
6. A built-in source of revenue for upkeep, programming, and improvements at the park by way of fees assessed at the private development (I haven't once heard Ron Salem mention how much it's going to cost to publicly maintain the park vs. baking in fees for hotel guests and/or residential tenants).

Could think of nothing more arrogant and foolish than deciding that the best course of action is stealing $6 million from the general fund to tell downtown's premier development partner "Naw, we got this, but we'll take your property," versus paying $0 to give them a risk-free shot and jump start courses at UF.

Salem should be chased out of town if he gets his way with this one. It's putting his own political interests ahead of the city's.

Where does the talk of a second land swap for John Rood and Vestcor fit into all of this? Whatever direction is taken with Gateway should also set the precedence for the Vestcor parcel behind the terminal.

My main issue with the land swap is I don't think any such buildings should be built on the Landing land.  It should all be public greenspace with amenities appropriate for it.  Putting up incentives for Gateway to build on it is salt in the wound for me.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 17, 2025, 11:37:47 AM
My main issue with the land swap is I don't think any such buildings should be built on the Landing land.  It should all be public greenspace with amenities appropriate for it.  Putting up incentives for Gateway to build on it is salt in the wound for me.

With all due respect, that ship appears to have sailed some time ago. The park's design (especially factoring the need to raise the ground up to meet the bridge level, and the amenities planned for that side of the park) is built around including the mixed use element, and the expectation of buildings on the north side has been in the cards since the beginning with Curry's drawing. Throwing everything out to come up with a new design (and still needing to address the JEA line anyway) at full cost to taxpayers doesn't really seem worth the benefit of the possible slight addition of extra space next to the bridge. It's not like the Gateway proposal is completely devoid of green space either:

(https://www.jacksonville.com/gcdn/authoring/authoring-images/2025/02/27/NFTU/80727858007-gateway-jax-riverfront-plaza-rendering.png?crop=882,497,x0,y0)

Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2025, 11:02:47 AM
Where does the talk of a second land swap for John Rood and Vestcor fit into all of this? Whatever direction is taken with Gateway should also set the precedence for the Vestcor parcel behind the terminal.

It doesn't strike me as ideal to be spending tons of money on just land as opposed to that money going to actually incentivize construction instead of land banking.

I believe the swap would be for two development pads....east and west of the Main Street Bridge. I'm not opposed to a land swap but can see how someone else who wants the land or a deal would be against it.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2025, 04:23:39 PM
I believe the swap would be for two development pads....east and west of the Main Street Bridge. I'm not opposed to a land swap but can see how someone else who wants the land or a deal would be against it.

Totally see how other developers could be against it, but still seems like a reasonably fair proposal to me.

I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that the East development pad would almost be treated like an incentive/completion grant for the West pad, versus an outright gift.

From my understanding:

1) Once development of the West pad is complete, Gateway would have an exclusive option to acquire the East pad at market or reduced rate. The option would have an expiration date, and if the pad wasn't developed within five years, they'd lose it.

2) What is also interesting to me is that, in the agreement, Gateway would assume the costs of demolition for the Main Street Bridge ramps going over the East property.

A few other notes:

- Gateway estimates that room taxes and HOA fees rendered for the tower could pump $300,000 a year into a programming and maintenance fund for Riverfront Plaza park. Assuming that NOT choosing Gateway Jax pushes the project back five years, which feels like it might even be conservative given our track record with riverfront RFPs, that's $1.5 million in cost savings alone right there.

- Further, I'd LOVE for someone to do an economic impact study laying out the cost of building out Phase 2 of Riverfront Plaza & the private development simultaneously vs. building out Phase 2 of the park, and then closing the east end of the park for two years for construction of the private development.

I drove past Pearl Street earlier today. They appear to be on the second floor of that one now! I'm confident Gateway would get both of those parcels done. Obviously, there's some haters out there. But whatever, let's get this stuff done.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 17, 2025, 09:25:54 PM
1) Once development of the West pad is complete, Gateway would have an exclusive option to acquire the East pad at market or reduced rate. The option would have an expiration date, and if the pad wasn't developed within five years, they'd lose it.

2) What is also interesting to me is that, in the agreement, Gateway would assume the costs of demolition for the Main Street Bridge ramps going over the East property.

I assume the use of the plural "ramps" is a typo, and only the ramp toward Newnan Street will be removed when the East Parcel is developed. I can't see the Ocean Street ramp being removed, as that would leave nowhere for northbound traffic to go. FDOT does not have the reconfiguration of Main Street to 2-way in their budget.

Will development of the East parking lot (between the Main Street Bridge and the Hyatt) be part of Phase 2 of the Riverfront Plaza project? The potential of offering Parcel 2 to Gateway as an incentive for completion of Parcel 1 implies to me that it will not be simultaneous with developing the Plaza west of the bridge. If so, will it continue to be a parking lot, or will it be a staging area for work to the west? And that means all access to the parking lot will be via Coastline Drive.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2025, 11:10:15 PM
I drove past Pearl Street earlier today. They appear to be on the second floor of that one now! I'm confident Gateway would get both of those parcels done. Obviously, there's some haters out there. But whatever, let's get this stuff done.

You wouldn't be talking about someone whose last name begins with the letter "S" would you?

The second building in Pearl Square is set to break ground this month

QuoteGroundbreaking is scheduled for the second project in the Gateway Jax development in Downtown Jacksonville.

The Gateway Jax partnership announced May 15 that work would begin May 29 on 425 Beaver Street, a mixed-use building that will include 286 multifamily units, nearly 20,000 square feet of retail space and a parking garage.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2025/may/15/groundbreaking-for-second-gateway-jax-project-set-for-may-29/

Wow groundbreaking was supposed to happen back in April. I guess uf campus is moving slow too

The UF logo could go up as soon as this year on an existing office building on West Bay Street that would be the starting point for the campus. The construction of new campus buildings would have its first grand opening by 2030 or 2031, a second building would open by 2035 and other work does not have any specific dates.

The city would give a 2.36 acre parcel and a 1.22 acre parcel to UF this year for the buildings.
After getting the property, UF would have 24 to 30 months to start construction on the larger parcel and another three years to finish it, according to a memo by Downtown Investment Authority CEO Lori Boyer summarizing the agreement. That would put the grand opening of that building in 2030 or 2031.
UF would have up to seven years to begin construction on the second parcel and would have to finish that building by 2035.

I wouldn't get overly concerned about a groundbreaking being delayed a month...

Yeah. They are actually moving pretty quick. The Trio would have been done a decade ago if it moved at the same speed.

Maybe someone should talk Moll/Gateway into taking on the Trio? But he's got so much on his plate right now, but, it appears that Moll/Gateway can more than walk and chew gum. I applaud and am proud of what Moll/Gateway are doing at this juncture (Pearl Street Square); now, they also need to work on the pad on the old Landing site (I hope they come up with something more appealing and taller), and that smaller piece of land to the east of the Landing site. We'll see what happens. But...I am overly pleased and proud of Moll/Gateway.

I'd imagine if the city is successful in foreclosing on the Trio and auctioning it off that we would see a bid from Gateway Jax. It's right across the street from Gateway's offices and JWB's future HQ and they seem focused on helping the DIA activate Laura Street

Quote from: Zac T on May 19, 2025, 11:14:24 PM
I'd imagine if the city is successful in foreclosing on the Trio and auctioning it off that we would see a bid from Gateway Jax. It's right across the street from Gateway's offices and JWB's future HQ and they seem focused on helping the DIA activate Laura Street

Wow...that's good to know and hear, and, I hope THAT'S what happens if the Trio is foreclosed on by the City. We shall see, "Que sera, sera."

Laura Street Trio, if it had opened in literally 2021 as initially planned, and then 2024 as then planned...would have been such an incredible gem to have open alongside the new landing park, possible gateway tower, friendship fountain park, etc.

City leaders don't have to make every little decision well, but they need to make ALL the big decisions well. They made some bad big decisions in the past 10 years with that property.

Can go back even further. If we had worked with Sleiman on the last Landing renovation plan, it would have been finished almost a decade ago. We'd have significantly higher ped foot traffic in the urban core by now and all the public money spent on the Riverfront Plaza park under construction could have been spent elsewhere, over the last decade, leveraging a lot more than what we see today. That one was a generational setback. We'll overcome it but the process to overcome will be longer than 10 years.

I could make a similar argument for City Hall Annex (demolished), and the Hyatt/convention center talk. Poor decisions made all around on each of these public sites years ago that will take additional years and public money to work themselves out. At this point, we can't get back the past, but we can learn from our mistakes and not make the same ones again.

Despite the setbacks, I do feel we are taking "3 steps forward, 2 steps back" or some similar ratio lol. I still feel that the energy is different, the projects with shovels in the ground ARE there, and thank goodness for Gateway Jax, who has the potential to near single-handedly be the spark that drives in-fill development from the river to Springfield downtown.

Also very grateful for VyStar, and despite the controversy...Khan and his companies. There's a few big players that are doing almost everything. Without them, we would be still at square one.

I have a 2 and a 4 year old. We visited Friendship Fountain when the new playground opened, and it just became clear to me how wonderful of an asset this is. All we have to do is follow through with botanical gardens, the rooftop bar/restaurant, the bathrooms, and the Related Tower...and you'll be in really great shape. If only it was combined with the MOSH renovation, which could have already been done!

Looking towards the stadium, the ballpark renovations were great and are already finished. That in tandem with the Zombie DORO apartments, Shipyards West Park, MOSH, Four Seasons, Met Park, and New Stadium is a monumental amount of great things happening on that half of downtown.

I personally do not share the urgency to move the jail. I just do not feel like it is actually a factor on people not going downtown. It will cost so much to move and build a new one. Would you rather spend $1 billion replacing a functional jail to a better location, or spend $1 billion on incentivizing a dozen other complimentary projects? Seems like a no brainer to me.

Lastly, the Emerald Trail and it's connections are transformative and game changing and we HAVE to finish them, even if it means playing hardball with JTA, who have been given so much leeway to go down weird R&D paths that have yet to return anything on their investment.

UF Campus too. Gotta tie that in with new train station and bringing Brightline and Amtrak DOWNTOWN.

Quote from: Zac T on May 19, 2025, 11:14:24 PM
I'd imagine if the city is successful in foreclosing on the Trio and auctioning it off that we would see a bid from Gateway Jax. It's right across the street from Gateway's offices and JWB's future HQ and they seem focused on helping the DIA activate Laura Street

I believe there are other interested parties with credibility, as well.

Quote from: fsu813 on May 24, 2025, 08:28:04 PM

Quote from: Zac T on May 19, 2025, 11:14:24 PM
I'd imagine if the city is successful in foreclosing on the Trio and auctioning it off that we would see a bid from Gateway Jax. It's right across the street from Gateway's offices and JWB's future HQ and they seem focused on helping the DIA activate Laura Street

I believe there are other interested parties with credibility, as well.

There'll be a good amount of serious interest, absolutely. The current ownership is 100% of the problem.

Quote from: Jankelope on May 23, 2025, 01:42:43 PM
Despite the setbacks, I do feel we are taking "3 steps forward, 2 steps back" or some similar ratio lol. I still feel that the energy is different, the projects with shovels in the ground ARE there, and thank goodness for Gateway Jax, who has the potential to near single-handedly be the spark that drives in-fill development from the river to Springfield downtown.

Also very grateful for VyStar, and despite the controversy...Khan and his companies. There's a few big players that are doing almost everything. Without them, we would be still at square one.

I have a 2 and a 4 year old. We visited Friendship Fountain when the new playground opened, and it just became clear to me how wonderful of an asset this is. All we have to do is follow through with botanical gardens, the rooftop bar/restaurant, the bathrooms, and the Related Tower...and you'll be in really great shape. If only it was combined with the MOSH renovation, which could have already been done!

Looking towards the stadium, the ballpark renovations were great and are already finished. That in tandem with the Zombie DORO apartments, Shipyards West Park, MOSH, Four Seasons, Met Park, and New Stadium is a monumental amount of great things happening on that half of downtown.

I personally do not share the urgency to move the jail. I just do not feel like it is actually a factor on people not going downtown. It will cost so much to move and build a new one. Would you rather spend $1 billion replacing a functional jail to a better location, or spend $1 billion on incentivizing a dozen other complimentary projects? Seems like a no brainer to me.

Lastly, the Emerald Trail and it's connections are transformative and game changing and we HAVE to finish them, even if it means playing hardball with JTA, who have been given so much leeway to go down weird R&D paths that have yet to return anything on their investment.

UF Campus too. Gotta tie that in with new train station and bringing Brightline and Amtrak DOWNTOWN.

One thing that's been great about working in the current mayor's administration is seeing how much just changes in perspective and focus can have huge results. Seeing things through now from how they were when we were writing about the various mistakes and hurdles a few years ago is like night and day. There is much more to be done, but it's a great reminder that when we simple commit to doing and finishing key things, the results are palpable. Just shows the truth that none of this stuff is rocket science, it just takes the right people and the right vision.

^ Can you get the mayor to change her opinion on U2C?  That would add to the transformation legacy she is building  8).

Riverfront parks now is asking to make tower parcel green space or low rise commercial on riverfront plaza. so now they will advocate all riverfront to be just park and no high rises that will help populate the area with people utilizing the park no office hotel residential commercial retail just a type of restaurant that many probably won't care about and some trees here and there and stupid art.  wow as if we don't have trees everywhere and parks in this city surrounded by national parks and homes filled with so much dense canopy and grass plants and shrubs. People can just stay where they are and enjoy the peace. No taxpayer is going to want to drive all the way downtown to see some park that is filled with trees unlike other major cities our city is mostly suburbs which contains more nature. And who is going to fund those parks like gateway said the hotel will add surcharge to help fund maintenance for the park. East bay street from berkman all the way to the stadium not really anything there and intuition ale is leaving so dead zone. Also if they add any food there in the parks probably not appealing to many and doubt mosh will have actual food there.

Quote from: Skybox111 on May 28, 2025, 07:59:25 PM
Riverfront parks now is asking to make tower parcel green space or low rise commercial on riverfront plaza. so now they will advocate all riverfront to be just park and no high rises that will help populate the area with people utilizing the park no office hotel residential commercial retail just a type of restaurant that many probably won't care about and some trees here and there and stupid art.  wow as if we don't have trees everywhere and parks in this city surrounded by national parks and homes filled with so much dense canopy and grass plants and shrubs. People can just stay where they are and enjoy the peace. No taxpayer is going to want to drive all the way downtown to see some park that is filled with trees unlike other major cities our city is mostly suburbs which contains more nature. And who is going to fund those parks like gateway said the hotel will add surcharge to help fund maintenance for the park. East bay street from berkman all the way to the stadium not really anything there and intuition ale is leaving so dead zone. Also if they add any food there in the parks probably not appealing to many and doubt mosh will have actual food there.

There isn't a national park anywhere near here. 

Quote from: Skybox111 on May 28, 2025, 07:59:25 PM
Riverfront parks now is asking to make tower parcel green space or low rise commercial on riverfront plaza. so now they will advocate all riverfront to be just park and no high rises that will help populate the area with people utilizing the park no office hotel residential commercial retail just a type of restaurant that many probably won't care about and some trees here and there and stupid art.  wow as if we don't have trees everywhere and parks in this city surrounded by national parks and homes filled with so much dense canopy and grass plants and shrubs. People can just stay where they are and enjoy the peace. No taxpayer is going to want to drive all the way downtown to see some park that is filled with trees unlike other major cities our city is mostly suburbs which contains more nature. And who is going to fund those parks like gateway said the hotel will add surcharge to help fund maintenance for the park. East bay street from berkman all the way to the stadium not really anything there and intuition ale is leaving so dead zone. Also if they add any food there in the parks probably not appealing to many and doubt mosh will have actual food there.

Hurray for Riverfront Parks!  I have been supporting this approach consistently. This is not about just bringing in people from the burbs to Downtown.  It is about attracting residents and tourists to Downtown.  Just like suburbanites want parks and green spaces, they are necessary to grow Downtown (even Nocatee, Wildlight and other mega-developers voluntarily provide these spaces, knowing the value they create). 

These residents and tourists will provide the vibrancy and the increased demand for Downtown will raise property values and the associated tax base to allow dollars to maintain the parks and more. 

Money for parks is not an issue, it is that our elected officials drain available funds for stupid pet projects, incentives for projects by their developer campaign donors, or by grandstanding to "reduce taxes" so they can get re-elected (just see their fear of raising the garbage tax for over a decade costing the City tens of millions).

Putting aside land for parks needs to be done before the demand is created or otherwise the land becomes unattainable, either due to cost or due to being diverted for other uses.  It takes vision and planning, not looking at what is today, but would could be tomorrow and for generations to come.

As I have stated before, most any city in the world would love to have the opportunities for public space along our riverfront that our City is, perversely, paying developers to take off our hands.  Ass backwards!

Instead of "investing" in developer incentives, plow those dollars back into infrastructure, including parks, and the developers will come begging to take advantage, no incentives necessary.  Jax has had it upside down for decades and will not move forward until it changes its tack.

Meant state parks but we do have national parks here fort Caroline national memorial and castillo de san marcos also timucuan preserve

Absolutely classic Jacksonville.

Step 1 - Spend years, and millions of dollars, RFPing Riverfront Plaza as a park, supported by integrated private development on a fraction of the northeastern portion of the park. Bring in a world class design firm to build a park around the idea of having a private development pad.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NFMkd5GT/Screen-Shot-2025-05-28-at-11-03-58-PM.png)

Step 2 - Plan park construction in two phases, with private development happening alongside Phase 2. Which again, occupies very little of the actual property.

(https://i.postimg.cc/63Hd4tVQ/f1a09d65-d5d4-401d-85c2-b449fbf57ebc-1920x1080.jpg)

Step 3 - After the first RFP for private development bears no fruit, the developer of Tampa's transformational Water Street falls into Jacksonville's lap, helps recruit UF, and launches the first vertical construction in the CBD in roughly 250 years as part of a billion dollar development. He owns a key piece of property necessary to launch a $500 million UF graduate campus that will revitalize LaVilla and transform the Prime Osborne, has a good relationship with the DIA, and works in good faith to come up with a win-win deal for Gateway and the city.

Step 4 - He works with the DIA and says, "Hey, you can have my property for UF, and we'll activate the northeast corner of the new park with hotel, residential, and retail. We won't ask for a penny more than $20 million in completion grants (below market rate for Jax these days), we'll work with you to phase construction alongside Phase 2 of the park, we'll build in a mechanism that will pump $700k in upkeep and programming into the park each year, and if it doesn't work out, no hard feelings, you can have the land back, and we'll give you the Interline building at a discount."

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wzh0MCSw/80727858007-gateway-jax-riverfront-plaza-rendering-png.webp)

Step 5 - We're handed the easiest, biggest no-brainer of the last 20 years. Jacksonville wins, getting the Interline building for 0 dollars and locking in UF during a time of economic uncertainty and leadership change at UF. We avoid another lengthy RFP, partnering with a proven, vested developer that has offered guaranteed timelines and incentive caps. We fulfill our end of the CBA with the Jags by delivering Riverfront Plaza on time. We get a healthy annual endowment to maintain Riverfront Plaza. And we get an active use, taking up very little space at the park, that provides restaurants, retail, and a sky deck, while ensuring enough 24/7 pedestrian density at the park to prevent it from becoming yet another homeless camp.

An absolute, slam dunk for the city, that checks ten boxes at once.

And what do we do?

Step 6 - We try to snag defeat from the jaws of victory once again by having every lunatic with some depressing axe to grind come out of the woodwork and act like they're smarter than the DIA and the only proven outside developer we have investing in Downtown Jax at the moment. Actively trying to kill the land swap, and if they're not careful, sour relationships with Gateway and UF as well.

The VERY LAST THING we need is dead greenspace surrounded by unactivated, M-F office towers. It's a recipe for disaster. Not sure if anyone remembers, but Riverfront Plaza was passive greenspace for a few years after the Landing was demolished. A few random events aside, you know who used it during the week and on weekends? A half dozen office workers kicking a soccer ball, and about 300 fentanyl addicts. You know who's using the greenspace at Ford on Bay? No one. Metro Park died because it was an island with no amenities. The most successful urban park in our city's history - Memorial Park in Riverside - only works because it is bordered on all sides by active uses.

We need to start taking advantage of these layups when they fall in our laps instead of having 50 special interests always wanting to slow things down. Or conduct another study. Or lobby to have yet another parcel in Downtown Jacksonville remain undeveloped.

There simply aren't tens of thousands of people in Jacksonville desperate to enjoy 100 acres of greenspace on the river just because they exist. We need to give them additional reasons to come, play, and stay on the river.

But, by all means, let's table everything, tell Gateway no, figure out UF later, delay Phase 2 of Riverfront Plaza for YEARS while we figure out a Plan B, piss off the Jags, jeopardize the CBA, pay for park maintenance from the general fund, and hand an empty Riverfront Plaza over to the meth heads to practice their murders, just so Ron Salem can run for Mayor on a platform of saving $1 million on a land deal (depending on which of the 40 required appraisals you use) and just so Riverfront Parks Now can prevent that awkward 10% of the park in the corner from becoming something that people actually want to use.

Self-defeating madness all around.

Here is the reasoning offered by the counterpointers...

QuoteFormer DIA chair, pro-parks group come out against Riverfront Plaza land swap
Jim Citrano Jr. calls for completion of an "optimal use study" for the site, while Riverfront Parks Now suggests a new option.

....Both Citrano and Riverfront Parks Now support the outright purchase option.

Concerns about cost

Citrano, who served on the DIA board from March 2020 through January 2025, said the Plaza redevelopment parcel poses challenges for builders.

In a May 27 email to Council members, DIA CEO Lori Boyer, current DIA board Chair Patrick Krechowski and others, he questions whether Gateway Jax's proposed tower could be built with $20 million in completion grants, the amount at which those incentives would be capped under city legislation.

Citrano said he believes there is "considerable risk that the final cost to taxpayers could exceed this figure substantially" due to the complexities of developing on the site.

Among those, he said the property offers limited size relative to the conceptual project's scale. Utilities would need to be moved, he said, and the pad's proximity to the Main Street Bridge also presents complications to construction.

Citrano said that under a master plan for Riverfront Plaza, developed by Chicago designer Perkins & Will, there would be coordinated development of the pad and the east portion of the plaza park. A tower and a beer garden in Perkins & Will's plan would include a shared retaining wall for instance.

Whether the tower and park can be built in concert is unclear, considering that the city has yet to fund the construction of the east half of the park. The west half is under construction.

"These factors make the parcel's development highly complicated and necessitate coordinated construction timelines with Phase II of the park," he wrote. "In real estate development, 'complicated' often translates to 'expensive.'"

More study needed

Citrano, the DIA board's president from July 2023 to June 2024, said the complexities of the site were evident when the DIA received only one response to its original request for proposals from developers for the property. That respondent was New York-based American Lions, which later withdrew after determining that its proposed 44-story residential tower was not feasible.

"Recognizing the need for flexibility, the DIA subsequently hired a consultant to explore interim uses for the site, anticipating that synchronization between park development and private construction might not proceed as planned," Citrano wrote.

"Simultaneously, the DIA was receiving growing community feedback, advocating for alternative uses — ranging from lower-density commercial buildings to full integration of the space into expanded parkland."

The DIA hired the consultant referenced by Citrano in the fall of 2024 to perform an "optimal use study" for properties in and around Riverfront Plaza.

"This effort appears to have been abandoned in favor of the current land swap proposal. Why?" Citrano wrote.

"The DIA should continue with the optimal use study, prioritize community input, and thoroughly assess all potential alternatives for the development of the northeast corner parcel. Doing so may require a redesign of Phase II of the park, but it could better align with the long-term public interest, community sentiment, and potentially reduce the city's financial obligations."

Citrano concludes that if the study found that a tower project was the best option, the property should go back out for proposals from developers so that competing offers could be fully scrutinized.

"This should include thorough due diligence into each developer's background, experience, and financial capacity," he wrote. "An RFP is always in the best interest of taxpayers, whom the City and DIA are duty-bound to represent."

In an interview, Citrano said he initially had not planned to address the situation publicly but changed his mind after the Council Committee of the Whole discussed the land swap during a May 21 meeting.

That day, Council member Chris Miller said he had been hearing only from supporters of the swap and that he would be interested in learning counterpoints.

Citrano said that given his experience on the board and his knowledge of the situation, he felt compelled to speak out.

He emphasized that his opinions were not directed at Gateway Jax but on the plaza properties. He said he is a strong supporter of Gateway Jax, which is moving forward on a Downtown development that comprises 25 city blocks across 32 acres if fully realized.

Citrano demonstrated his support of Gateway Jax as a DIA board member, voting for incentives for the development.

Coming forward

Like Citrano, the steering committee of Riverfront Parks Now said it was reluctant to publicly discuss the issue but had "been encouraged to share our perspective in keeping with our role as a civic advocacy group."

In an email to Council members and members of Mayor Donna Deegan's administration, the group offers a third option that includes a low-rise building with a multilevel restaurant and retail space.

"Tampa's riverfront offers a proven model, with places like the two-story Armature Works and one to three-story Sparkman Wharf that draw people in and energize the area," the email states.

"These vibrant spaces thrive without towers — offering public benefits without costly city-funded financial incentives."

Riverfront Parks now offers another example closer to home, The HUB Brooklyn multiuse restaurant, office and event space under construction at 400 Riverside Ave. The HUB will be anchored by Southern Grounds, the Sky Bar and Alder & Oak.

"This type of structure could allow the City to retain long-term control and ownership of the land while providing leased space for restaurants and rooftop dining that integrate seamlessly into the park," the group wrote, adding that the smaller-scale approach satisfies public interest in riverside dining options while fitting with the character of the park.

Other benefits

The group says its approach could save the city tens of millions of dollars in incentives and utility relocation costs over a tower, requires less parking and promotes a pedestrian-friendly space.

The project would generate tax revenue and, through contributions from occupants of the spaces, could help pay for park maintenance.

"Riverfront Parks Now respectfully recommends the City retain ownership of the back corner of the Landing and lease it to partners who will help create a vibrant, welcoming park in the heart of downtown—delivering the energy of a whole park as soon as possible," the email says. "We urge you to consider this appealing less costly, faster, more park-forward alternative!"

Signees are chair Natalie Rosenberg and members Susan Caven, Barbara Ketchum, Michael Kirwan, Jimmy Orth, Ted Pappas and Nancy Powell

On its website, Riverfront Parks Now describes itself as a coalition of nonprofit organizations working with city leaders, the business community and residents to foster development of parks and green spaces Downtown....

[Low rise images:]

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2025/05/28/Sparkman_Wharf_2_t850.jpeg?94beabde1e982a4eee8f83697e93b1d92468de7c)

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2025/05/28/Sparkman_Wharf_1_t850.jpeg?94beabde1e982a4eee8f83697e93b1d92468de7c)

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2025/may/28/former-dia-chair-pro-parks-group-come-out-against-riverfront-plaza-land-swap/

They are acting like the hub is already completed and people are flocking there and tampa has a bunch of residential and hotel towers all nearby waterfront parks that's why Tampa waterfront works that way is because people are living in towers proximity to the parks. Convention center hotels and museums on Tampa's waterfront Jacksonville does not we have no parks right now and no residential towers nearby to help that area there's really no one living near where those parks will be cbd is all empty office.  so any residents living in close range to that park. that is why gateway wants to put a tower there because there's no-one living there to help contribute at that place. Tampa has shorten parks where buildings are also on the waterfront convention center Marriott hotel apartment tower restaurants all tying together it's not all parks on the waterfront. We can also have buildings and towers that mingle with these parks doesn't have to be all green space need something that's gonna entertain people.

https://floridayimby.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/101_099-300-w-tyler-st-david-allen-productions-scaled.jpg (https://floridayimby.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/101_099-300-w-tyler-st-david-allen-productions-scaled.jpg)

https://media.istockphoto.com/id/1479018139/photo/downtown-tampa-during-sunrise.jpg?s=1024x1024&w=is&k=20&c=C7IndrRwGzoCV91l5N9fCvNw74EV9ATQUl-6ckvEmx0= (https://media.istockphoto.com/id/1479018139/photo/downtown-tampa-during-sunrise.jpg?s=1024x1024&w=is&k=20&c=C7IndrRwGzoCV91l5N9fCvNw74EV9ATQUl-6ckvEmx0=)

Quote from: Skybox111 on May 28, 2025, 10:59:42 PM
Meant state parks but we do have national parks here fort Caroline national memorial and castillo de san marcos also timucuan preserve

None of those are national parks.

I thought the park was fully designed, but not funded for the second half. Not really sure how this pad would change the design. Either the building fits on the pad or it doesn't. Am I missing something?
Also, I would have much more faith that Gateway would make something happen then putting out for bid again. This never seems to work in our favor.

Completely agree Ken, if City Council votes against the land swap deal it would be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Citrano is acting in bad faith with his concerns about the costs. The costs to City are capped at $20,000,000. Furthermore, the ROI is projected to be the best ROI for the City out of any of its recent development. If, for whatever reason, Gateway cannot build the Tower with $20,000,000 in incentives from the City, the City can buy the property back from Gateway for less than the City is selling it for, which guarantees the City can realistically buy the property back. Also, the fear that Gateway can't get this Tower off the ground runs against the reality that they are the only group to start vertical construction for a tower in the Urban Core in the past what, 30 years?

As for all of the Park Lovers. I hope they all realize that Phase II of the Riverfront Plaza is currently not funded. There is a snow balls chance in hell that the City will fund Phase II without a private developer lined up to build on Parcel B. Another reality is that there are no other private developers to build on Parcel B as demonstrated by a failed RFP a few years ago. So, if Gateway doesn't get this property, what the Park Lovers are going to get is a half-built park with 50 percent fenced off and left to rot, just like Friendship Fountian for years. Way to go guys.

Also, If Gateway couldn't make it work, couldn't just be scaled back from 17 to 10 stories, ect.? Also, hasn't Salem been in council through all the past failures: American Lions, Barlow, Ford on Bay, etc. etc.?
I feel like an outside developer, meaning one not currently working with the city, is just going to propose something way over the top and not find it feasible in the end. This cycle will just go on for another 50 years.

City's looking for ways to fumble once again.

Technically yes they are not national parks but are part of the national park service of 11 national parks in florida

Quote from: Des on May 29, 2025, 12:30:09 PM
City's looking for ways to fumble once again.

Not all the city. Hold fast.

With respect to all detractors--because I do think the arguments have merit--this feels a lot like letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. We have been debating, studying, RFPing, re-RFPing, re-studying, canceling, wait-and-seeing, and otherwise screwing around for decades with our riverfront property. Pausing forward momentum again, at this point, will push Phase II back by years and simultaneously limit activation of phase I.

It would in fact be ideal to have a world-class contiguous riverfront park system that draws in organic, unsubsidized* demand for dense CBD development. The sea change that's required in our local politics and priorities, coupled with the historical decisions already being executed, just don't support this happening in the current generation.

*a bit of semantics, but spending hundreds of millions on park amenities could arguably be considered a subsidy in itself

Surely RPN isn't going to win out on this one. It's too much of a no-brainer. I am technically a "member" of RPN and attend meetings occasionally.

One of the first things that I noticed was that many of the most influential figures there have a different idea of what a "park" should be versus what has been successful in the last 2 decades in revitalization projects in the USA. There is an obsession with "green space" as an end to itself. Every park that we love has some type of nature or green space, but the scope of what a destination park is has changed dramatically. Hotels, residential, bars, restaurants, attractions, are now core to what make these urban parks thrive.

Sometimes it seems like the driving force for many in the RPN world is refraining from development whenever possible, or prioritizing nature in a spot that hasn't truly been "natural" for 100+ years. There are places where prioritizing green space above all else make sense. This isn't one of them. Have the big central lawn for sure, but without complementing uses, attractions, destinations, it will fail and look even dumber when compared to the landing.

Also, unironically I wish we were building the Lerp statue.

Unbelievable. I sometimes get the feeling that there is a "tug of war" and power struggle going on in City Hall; and it's not being perpetrated by Mayor Deegan, but certain "you know who's" that don't like her for whatever reason. Salem, Citrano, and others behind the scenes are very hard workers; working hard for their own interests (whatever that might be) and working hard (again for whatever reason) to undermine and destroy Mayor Deegan's image and/or what she is trying so hard to accomplish. If this land swap deal is shot down, I recommend doing away with consolidation, shrink Jacksonville's limits/boundaries back to 1967/68; why? Because our city, because of certain small-minded people in power, think on the level of a 30k (or slightly more I guess) population city rather than a city of 1.08 million people (last estimate). No, towers, tall buildings do not make a city or a great City, people do; but if you say or present yourself as a major city, then start thinking, behaving, and showing yourself as one!!! (I LOVE JAX!)

^ I am not sure it is fair to put Citrano in the same boat with Salem.  Salem is clearly out to frustrate Deegan, no matter what and for his own selfish reasons such as being a want-to-be future mayor.

I am giving Citrano the benefit of the doubt that he genuinely believes his position is best for the future of Downtown. Just because some here see it differently, they shouldn't diss him by comparing him to Salem.

Let's have respect for even those we disagree with.  A diversity of ideas is sorely needed in this City and singlemindedness exists way too much here.

The prevailing view, whatever it might be, should be stress tested to at least ensure that it gets a better outcome than not, because no one challenged its possible defects.  If a position can't hold up to scrutiny, then maybe that isn't the right or best answer.

In my lifetime, I have found that naysayers, cynics and skeptics in this town have a pretty good batting average as projects play out, or don't.  Many of this City's problems today are pretty good evidence of that.

I have absolutely no doubt that if this park is not activated by adjacent development of some description, that it will fail. And the ONLY option for that is within the footprint of the park itself, because there is no other option.

As far as some of the talking points, wouldn't utilities have to be moved whether it was a 1-3 story building going up or a 40 story one? If so, then that is a moot point. Also, while a high rise may require more incentives (and let's be honest, $20mm is chump change compared to what JAX has done for past projects) whereas a 1-3 story project would not, the smaller version would also pay a fraction of the taxes than the larger one.

Given his background I tend to want to give Citrano the benefit of the doubt, but is it possible his name will be prominent in a potential Ron Salem administration?     

Quote from: vicupstate on May 31, 2025, 10:47:01 AM
a potential Ron Salem administration?     

Just the sound of this makes me nauseous

Crane is up at Pearl Street!

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Cnv83WS/Pearl-Street-Crane.jpg)

Quote from: Zac T on June 04, 2025, 01:22:03 PM
Crane is up at Pearl Street!

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Cnv83WS/Pearl-Street-Crane.jpg)

Another crane in downtown?! I'm not crying, you're crying!

#DonnaGetsItDone

Is the crane for the tower?

Quote from: Zac T on June 04, 2025, 01:22:03 PM
Crane is up at Pearl Street!

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Cnv83WS/Pearl-Street-Crane.jpg)

I saw this yesterday and I was like "Yup it's happening!" Downtown Jax Baby!

I don't think it's for the high-rise tower; it's for one of the lower rise residential. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I believe the high-rise tower is next (3rd building) to go up (N8 I believe?), and will be the tallest at 275 feet; N9 will supposedly be 200 feet, or thereabouts in height.

Something really needs to be done about the old JEA/Independent Life Tower. It is quickly becoming a dilapidated eye sore. Anyone heard anything more relative to development of this building? I am hoping, and praying that Bryan Moll decides, for whatever reason to include it in his "Pearl Square" chest.

It's tied up in a few lawsuits. Gateway acquired the block across the street, which is where it's parking deck was supposed to be constructed. So that site is pretty much boxed in. So regardless of what happens and/or who owns it, Gateway will be in the mix.

Quote from: heights unknown on June 04, 2025, 08:58:04 PM
I don't think it's for the high-rise tower; it's for one of the lower rise residential. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I believe the high-rise tower is next (3rd building) to go up (N8 I believe?), and will be the tallest at 275 feet; N9 will supposedly be 200 feet, or thereabouts in height.

You are correct. The crane is for Block N11. Block N9 is no longer planned to be a highrise but rather a "boutique" office building as pictured below. Block N8 and the garage behind The Ambassador are scheduled to break ground in the fall. I haven't read anything regarding whether or not the Ambassador garage will include ground floor retail space but hopefully it does

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD0SxjHx/Pearl-Square.jpg)

Quote from: Zac T on June 06, 2025, 02:02:39 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on June 04, 2025, 08:58:04 PM
I don't think it's for the high-rise tower; it's for one of the lower rise residential. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I believe the high-rise tower is next (3rd building) to go up (N8 I believe?), and will be the tallest at 275 feet; N9 will supposedly be 200 feet, or thereabouts in height.

You are correct. The crane is for Block N11. Block N9 is no longer planned to be a highrise but rather a "boutique" office building as pictured below. Block N8 and the garage behind The Ambassador are scheduled to break ground in the fall. I haven't read anything regarding whether or not the Ambassador garage will include ground floor retail space but hopefully it does

(https://i.postimg.cc/mD0SxjHx/Pearl-Square.jpg)

Awesome; totally frickin awesome.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCUJune-2025/i-PrpJ3Gg/0/KvJrFZBTmJdTJpcVHRcZxBwVmjskPbvRtH9jtG5NQ/X2/20250606_094413-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCUJune-2025/i-7rJ4FHq/0/LNmSJvGWHVjtcshDRL9cPPdG36h9ghwdWzQPbnM9q/X2/20250606_185145-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCUJune-2025/i-sHLVRx6/0/KPWz6WsbMb8RBd8W2hjWgBhb6vNkFDP5vt8fWn8J5/X2/20250606_185152-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCUJune-2025/i-pn4Z8Sz/0/LJJMKMdxV35FMzjDFJjLBKgTLwFG6VDhR6nMmQGPF/X2/20250606_185320-X2.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCUJune-2025/i-qPLVwRZ/0/K5GrSCg8sf4BVDHvNVgcG7t3N3bJFcKtKTKSwf7qX/X2/20250606_185352-X2.jpg)

Hard the believe.  Gotta give these guys kudos for getting this much off the ground when no one else has even come close.

Yes and I agree; many KUDOS to them for shooting their rocket(s) off to the moon. BTW...that crane looks good but sure looks real skinny. I hope it's secured really good and deep into the ground.

Those brown apartments in back of the crane (the old St. Johns Apartments (don't know what it is now called)), needs to be painted either white or off white to blend in with the buildings in and around Pearl Square. Sarasota skyline is an excellent example of most of the towers blending in together "color wise" so that there won't be a clash of colors of the buildings. I know this is a small and minute thing but believe me it works relative to "eye pleasing" to attract people to certain areas.

Great update photos, @Lakelander

Quote from: heights unknown on June 07, 2025, 10:20:38 AM
Yes and I agree; many KUDOS to them for shooting their rocket(s) off to the moon. BTW...that crane looks good but sure looks real skinny. I hope it's secured really good and deep into the ground.

It's a self erecting crane.  There is nothing in the ground like there would be for a more traditional tower crane.  These are more portable and easier to assemble for use on smaller jobs.

Quote from: acme54321 on June 08, 2025, 10:41:04 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on June 07, 2025, 10:20:38 AM
Yes and I agree; many KUDOS to them for shooting their rocket(s) off to the moon. BTW...that crane looks good but sure looks real skinny. I hope it's secured really good and deep into the ground.

It's a self erecting crane.  There is nothing in the ground like there would be for a more traditional tower crane.  These are more portable and easier to assemble for use on smaller jobs.

The Doro is using a similar, but slightly larger, crane.  The office crane has come down at the Shipyards, but the two hotel cranes are still going strong. 

A few more from driving by today.

(https://i.postimg.cc/G3kt2YVq/IMG-6545.avif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/90jfbFRd/IMG-6546.avif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyjRrnm6/IMG-6547.avif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tT6TFVTR/IMG-6548.avif)

Any updates on the Related project near the Friendship Fountain?

Good question.... Last i heard the related group is supposed to break ground before end of summer.... Late July/early August. Not sure how true that is..

Aren't most high rises built with steel framing?  Or, could Related use moving concrete forms?  If the former, I wonder how Trump's tariffs on steel and so much more will impact building costs?  Plus, the reduction of the labor pool due to the immigration crackdowns?  I also don't see interest rates dropping much, if at all.  Doesn't seem like a great time to build over the coming months or more.

According to the last Daily Record article I found, final designs were supposed to be completed last month and construction is supposed to be completed no later than April 30, 2029. They are still well within their timeline

QuoteUnder the term sheet, the new proposal would include eight floors of luxury units including studios and 1-, 2- and 3-bedroom apartments. The project would include a 550-space parking garage with 30 spaces reserved for visitors to the Museum of Science & History.

Related also would manage and execute improvements to the Riverwalk and would deed a 4,200-square-foot parcel to the city to permit expansion of St. Johns River Park and Friendship Fountain.

Terms call for final design to be completed by May 30, 2025, and for construction to be completed by April 30, 2029.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2024/may/06/the-related-groups-residential-tower-project-resurfaces-along-southbank/

Quote
Terms call for final design to be completed by May 30, 2025

Did they meet this deadline? Have they submitted final plans to the DIA?

Rad new art installations going up in front of the Courthouse.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1C8GTPEPJo/

Love it!

The renderings... ;D ;) :o...show an access road right in front of the courthouse? Be good to have something in the space, but why is so hard for Jacksonville folks get renderings correct?

I think they're planning on adding the road.

"Reconnecting" Monroe Street has been a topic of discussion since the Courthouse was plopped down across it.  I had hoped it was permanently put to bed, but, apparently not.

Interesting. I did not recall that being a thing. I agree with the above, not a fan.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 19, 2025, 09:24:35 AM
"Reconnecting" Monroe Street has been a topic of discussion since the Courthouse was plopped down across it.  I had hoped it was permanently put to bed, but, apparently not.

I believe a requirement of the art installation was that it not impede the potential road. That said, in today's world, an open public road that close to a courthouse should be a non-starter.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 20, 2025, 12:09:18 PM

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 19, 2025, 09:24:35 AM
"Reconnecting" Monroe Street has been a topic of discussion since the Courthouse was plopped down across it.  I had hoped it was permanently put to bed, but, apparently not.

I believe a requirement of the art installation was that it not impede the potential road. That said, in today's world, an open public road that close to a courthouse should be a non-starter.

Although a road there could be seen as a way to constrain public protests. Much smaller lawn and it is against the law to block public roads (to say nothing of the 'free shot' the Gov DuhSatan gave to motorists 'confronted' by demonstrators).

Quote from: Gambit80 on June 19, 2025, 09:34:01 AM
Interesting. I did not recall that being a thing. I agree with the above, not a fan.

This has been ongoing since 2007, really even before that if you consider that the Courthouse designs from 1999/2000 originally didnt envision leveling almost six city blocks and settling on the ugly waste of space that was built.

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-dec-duval-county-courthouse-renderings (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-dec-duval-county-courthouse-renderings)


They have wanted to continue Monroe Street throughout the grid because back during the River City Rennaissance plan that leveled LaVilla... a new highway ramp was constructed, alongside the I-95/I-10 reconstruction, at Monroe Street.  The RCR plan 'envisioned' that Monroe Street would be grand entrance into Downtown by getting rid of the 'slums' and constructing a new three-lane tree-lined street.

The problem is that the sprawling building design that was ultimately selected literally cut off that grid.

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2006-nov-downtown-frankenstein-lavilla-style (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2006-nov-downtown-frankenstein-lavilla-style)
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/unity-plaza-retail-site-listed-for-sale-page-2/)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4640-p1090989.JPG)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Development/Duval-County-Courthouse-Plaza/i-jPN3bWK/0/NTZjGQNPCjshD6NGq9pzxQRc7J6GHQwXZ4PGBXXGW/O/Slide27.jpg)

When the Courthouse was tens of millions (really hundreds of millions) over budget, former City officials tried to sweep up the public art money set aside (required by ordinance) and instead use that to fund this weird street redesign that would have continued Monroe Street in a long, sweeping two lane road located about 15 feet from the two-lane Adams Street in between the Courthouse and the Courthouse parking garage.

This site has been the leading voice advocating for a proper public square in place of that ridiculous roadway.

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-mar-peyton-struggles-the-truth-about-the-courthouse (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-mar-peyton-struggles-the-truth-about-the-courthouse)

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-feb-why-monroe-street-should-not-be-rebuilt (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-feb-why-monroe-street-should-not-be-rebuilt)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Development/Duval-County-Courthouse/i-cMxdGLj/0/MLv78NVcXPsWfFC6jjvJgnG6HZRM9VpR4c5dmDPL9/L/dec_08_ddrb_agenda_for_web_page_32-L.jpg)

While 'successful', and that success included protecting the public art funds now being used to create art installations in the public space (at one point the chief judge wanted to use that money instead to paint portraits of judges to hang in their offices), those efforts came with a compromise. The compromise was that any public plaza had to be designed to preserve a potential Monroe Street ROW being constructed in the future.  My sincere hope is that this roadway never breaks ground before those that have been pushing for Monroe Street to be extended, pass on to the next world. so that this ridiculous idea can also be put to eternal rest.  I hope those individuals continue to live very long and happy lives... but they are long in the tooth now, so the longer that roadway can be delayed, the better.

Wood frame now going up on Block N11 in Pearl Square

(https://i.postimg.cc/SKkd48Vf/Block-N11.jpg)

Quote from: fieldafm on June 20, 2025, 01:04:40 PM
My sincere hope is that this roadway never breaks ground before those that have been pushing for Monroe Street to be extended, pass on to the next world. so that this ridiculous idea can also be put to eternal rest.  I hope those individuals continue to live very long and happy lives... but they are long in the tooth now, so the longer that roadway can be delayed, the better.

What should help is that FDOT will be minimizing the Monroe Street off-ramp from I-95 as part of an upcoming project

There's already a weird lane drop heading eastbound at the Emerald Trail now. This little road idea should be taken out back and shot for good.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 24, 2025, 12:48:29 PM

Quote from: fieldafm on June 20, 2025, 01:04:40 PM
My sincere hope is that this roadway never breaks ground before those that have been pushing for Monroe Street to be extended, pass on to the next world. so that this ridiculous idea can also be put to eternal rest.  I hope those individuals continue to live very long and happy lives... but they are long in the tooth now, so the longer that roadway can be delayed, the better.

What should help is that FDOT will be minimizing the Monroe Street off-ramp from I-95 as part of an upcoming project

LOL, I remember when the City designated the Monroe Street exit from I-95 as the premier/gateway exit to Downtown.  Fixed it up and landscaped it with plenty of "Florida palm trees."  And, shortly thereafter, they plopped the Courthouse in the middle of it.  Just another example of a lack of a master plan or any plan, for that matter, for Downtown.  Pure stupidity.

Ironic, to see the Beaver Street project being designated as "Gateway."  Definitely makes more sense vs. Monroe.  4 lane, U.S. 90.  Takes private developers to fill the planning void the City has created.

Anyone know where Corner Lot's Jones on Hogan is now? I believe permits have been issued a few months ago.

Work has started on the Jones Brothers Furniture building. They are currently working on the interior of that structure.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 27, 2025, 11:05:14 AM
Work has started on the Jones Brothers Furniture building. They are currently working on the interior of that structure.

Great news. I wonder when that project, as a whole will be completed?

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Pearl-Street-District-October-2023/i-MN3RXXc/0/LSgpdZKHsG5vbqQXT54mJDqRC4Zm96Q5cQvcMMt23/X5/IMG_20250627_193615-X5.jpg)

Should be topped out in 2-3 weeks.

It looks like they prefab some sections... is this the key to speeding up the project?  Do they at least precut the lumber pieces?  Looks like that would make sense given the repeating patterns in the picture and likely the same floor plan for each floor.

Always love watching carpenters at work... the real workhorses to getting many buildings built  ;D.

Man; they sure don't build them or make them like they used to. Whenever I see a lot of wood or lumber like that, it brings to mind two things: 1) match sticks; 2) popsicle sticks. Just saying.

I'm relatively new with posting on this forum, but how do you upload pictures on here?

I tried using the "add attachment" feature, but I haven't had much success with it.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 27, 2025, 11:09:24 PM
It looks like they prefab some sections... is this the key to speeding up the project?  Do they at least precut the lumber pieces?  Looks like that would make sense given the repeating patterns in the picture and likely the same floor plan for each floor.

Those are probably mock ups for the crew to reference

Quote from: Jones518 on June 28, 2025, 01:15:06 PM
I'm relatively new with posting on this forum, but how do you upload pictures on here?

I tried using the "add attachment" feature, but I haven't had much success with it.

You can use https://postimages.org/ and upload the picture on there. It'll then give you a direct link that you can paste into the "Insert Image" button on here

Quote from: heights unknown on June 28, 2025, 10:27:54 AM
Man; they sure don't build them or make them like they used to. Whenever I see a lot of wood or lumber like that, it brings to mind two things: 1) match sticks; 2) popsicle sticks. Just saying.

These buildings actually have very strict codes that they must follow and when all the fire suppression systems are in place and activated, it's very easy to contain fires and prevent them from spreading. That is why despite the proliferation of wood-frame construction apartments, we don't see many of them burning down. Case in point, there was a fire at the Lofts at Jefferson last week but you would never know because it was very easily contained to the unit where it began.

In the case of RISE Doro, none of the fire suppression systems were active yet.

Quote from: Zac T on June 29, 2025, 12:28:19 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on June 28, 2025, 10:27:54 AM
Man; they sure don't build them or make them like they used to. Whenever I see a lot of wood or lumber like that, it brings to mind two things: 1) match sticks; 2) popsicle sticks. Just saying.

These buildings actually have very strict codes that they must follow and when all the fire suppression systems are in place and activated, it's very easy to contain fires and prevent them from spreading. That is why despite the proliferation of wood-frame construction apartments, we don't see many of them burning down. Case in point, there was a fire at the Lofts at Jefferson last week but you would never know because it was very easily contained to the unit where it began.

In the case of RISE Doro, none of the fire suppression systems were active yet.

Thanks Zac. I now understand that just because construction is of mostly wood, don't mean that it will blow over or kerosene explode.

Quote from: heights unknown on June 28, 2025, 10:27:54 AM
Man; they sure don't build them or make them like they used to. Whenever I see a lot of wood or lumber like that, it brings to mind two things: 1) match sticks; 2) popsicle sticks. Just saying.

The wood buildings have been around for a long time!

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/San-Diego-March-2018/i-ZbtSKwz/0/L4qDQNb8hRsCgRZf9tmpQfVcPCDKxvXhqWBMCjZFx/L/20180319_154016-L.jpg)


Throughout history, every now and then, some of our largest just burned down 100 years ago!

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4235122594_HGfdMZ2-800x1000.jpg)

 https://m.youtube.com/@stevecameronbennett5821 (https://m.youtube.com/@stevecameronbennett5821)

Not sure if it's been mentioned here before, but worth a look as Steve takes vids of downtown projects with his drone and gives a brief description of the project and showcases the progress thus far. Followed by final product/ artist renderings. He used to post evey couple of weeks.

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on June 30, 2025, 03:00:20 PM
https://m.youtube.com/@stevecameronbennett5821 (https://m.youtube.com/@stevecameronbennett5821)

Not sure if it's been mentioned here before, but worth a look as Steve takes vids of downtown projects with his drone and gives a brief description of the project and showcases the progress thus far. Followed by final product/ artist renderings. He used to post evey couple of weeks.

I've been looking for a channel like this, thanks!!

Here's a really cool site a friend of mine produces which shows 360 tours of different downtown developments.  Great Pearl Square, Doro, and Four Seasons drone shots. 

https://developjacksonville.com/category/360-tours/

Riverfront Plaza starting to take shape.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VN4HYkbD/IMG-9089.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/633bTxrw/IMG-9090.jpg)

Will be glad see this one finished!

Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

Sure feels like poor form given the rush to get the land swaps approved.

But the Fall semester is days away, the Fall 2025 timeline always felt a little ambitious, and I'm not reading anything to it.

Hopefully it sets UF up for a more successful launch a year from now.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on August 02, 2025, 09:22:11 AM

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

Sure feels like poor form given the rush to get the land swaps approved.

But the Fall semester is days away, the Fall 2025 timeline always felt a little ambitious, and I'm not reading anything to it.

Hopefully it sets UF up for a more successful launch a year from now.

It's disappointing but it makes sense. UF was always clear (including publicly to City Council) the goal was to get possession of the building to renovate it so several programs could be there for fall 2026, with the possibility Architecture could move in this fall. Apparently they've decided it makes more sense to do the whole building at once. The Architecture lab will still be Downtown in the meantime.

I have a family member that is chief legal counsel for a top 25 national university. Was talking with them a few months back about Vanderbilt's campus in WPB and UF's Jax campus. They said that virtually every higher education institution is putting a pause on major expansion due to federal funding uncertainty. They said they would be shocked if either campus started soon, as everyone is still in wait and see mode.

I'm sure the complexity and timing of the land swap didn't help, but if I had to guess UF's inner turmoil with their presidency/deans and the federal funding was a bigger factor.

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

?????????? WHY? I don't get it. How does this affect the swap? (the swap was done right?)

Quote from: heights unknown on August 02, 2025, 02:00:14 PM

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

?????????? WHY? I don't get it. How does this affect the swap? (the swap was done right?)

It doesn't affect the swap, which approved at the city level and moving forward later this month. They were always going to have to do interior buildout before most of the building was ready in 2026. See below:

Quote from: Tacachale on August 02, 2025, 11:34:57 AM

It's disappointing but it makes sense. UF was always clear (including publicly to City Council) the goal was to get possession of the building to renovate it so several programs could be there for fall 2026, with the possibility Architecture could move in this fall. Apparently they've decided it makes more sense to do the whole building at once. The Architecture lab will still be Downtown in the meantime.

Quote from: Tacachale on August 02, 2025, 02:57:15 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on August 02, 2025, 02:00:14 PM

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

?????????? WHY? I don't get it. How does this affect the swap? (the swap was done right?)

It doesn't affect the swap, which approved at the city level and moving forward later this month. They were always going to have to do interior buildout before most of the building was ready in 2026. See below:

Quote from: Tacachale on August 02, 2025, 11:34:57 AM

It's disappointing but it makes sense. UF was always clear (including publicly to City Council) the goal was to get possession of the building to renovate it so several programs could be there for fall 2026, with the possibility Architecture could move in this fall. Apparently they've decided it makes more sense to do the whole building at once. The Architecture lab will still be Downtown in the meantime.

Thanks Takachale ("T").

Quote from: heights unknown on August 02, 2025, 02:00:14 PM

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

?????????? WHY? I don't get it. How does this affect the swap? (the swap was done right?)

Their timeline to move into the building always seemed completely unrealistic. I think they were just leveraging it to get the deals done.  They have to do a complete interior build out, you can't reasonably do that in a few months.

Quote from: acme54321 on August 02, 2025, 09:02:14 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on August 02, 2025, 02:00:14 PM

Quote from: Skybox111 on August 02, 2025, 12:02:19 AM
Well uf just postponed using interline building until fall 2026

?????????? WHY? I don't get it. How does this affect the swap? (the swap was done right?)

Their timeline to move into the building always seemed completely unrealistic. I think they were just leveraging it to get the deals done.  They have to do a complete interior build out, you can't reasonably do that in a few months.

Should be in there in part by January 2026. Won't be long.

Other than the architecture program that has been here all along, what new programs will be started in 2026?  I haven't seen much on the specifics of what's next, program-wise?  That seems odd at this point in time.

I'm not complaining trust me; but.......WHO the HELL told downtown Jacksonville to start waking up? Keep shaking her shoulders. Get her up and running!!!

This project hints at another building going up in the heart of Downtown... a 500 vehicle parking garage expansion for a developer owning a nearby vacant lot that says stay tuned...

QuoteCity issues permit for Amkin's $13 million Downtown garage expansion
The addition will add 500 spaces to the 1,000-spot facility at Bay and Pearl streets.

...Driver, McAfee, Hawthorne & Diebenow attorney Staci Rewis, who represented Amkin on the project, told the board the garage owner has "some future development plans" near the site but did not provide further details....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2025/oct/03/city-issues-permit-for-amkins-13-million-downtown-garage-expansion/

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2023/04/06/301_Bay_Garage_Expansion_map_t850.jpg?94beabde1e982a4eee8f83697e93b1d92468de7c)

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2025/10/03/Amkin_Garage_spex_t850.jpeg?94beabde1e982a4eee8f83697e93b1d92468de7c)

How will construction affect the operations of the existing garage? Can they build the new portion, then tie it to the existing garage incrementally? The garage serves the adjacent Marriot Hotel, as well for events at the Performing Arts Center - what is utilization during weekdays?

On a typical weekday, the first couple of floors are reserved for hotel use. Starting from the third floor (I believe), the rest is occupied by staff from the EverBank building, along with the old Greyhound station parking lot. I'm not sure about the other nearby buildings.

It'll be interesting to see what ends up being proposed for that old Greyhound lot. A co-working/residential development would make a lot of sense in that area. I don't really see another hotel going there, since the area feels more like a business district — but I could be wrong. An overflow garage might also be a smart addition, depending on what's planned. Just thinking out loud.

Brickell in Miami, for example, is mostly residential now, and Amkin has ties to Related Group out of Miami. Whatever ends up being developed, I'm hoping it becomes Jacksonville's tallest tower. Curious to hear what others think.

On another note, now that he's acquired more land near Talleyrand and starting work on the garage, I wonder if we'll start seeing some movement around Friendship Fountain as well?

Quote from: MakeDTjaxGre@tAgain on October 04, 2025, 01:22:55 PM
On a typical weekday, the first couple of floors are reserved for hotel use. Starting from the third floor (I believe), the rest is occupied by staff from the EverBank building, along with the old Greyhound station parking lot. I'm not sure about the other nearby buildings.

It'll be interesting to see what ends up being proposed for that old Greyhound lot. A co-working/residential development would make a lot of sense in that area. I don't really see another hotel going there, since the area feels more like a business district — but I could be wrong. An overflow garage might also be a smart addition, depending on what's planned. Just thinking out loud.

Brickell in Miami, for example, is mostly residential now, and Amkin has ties to Related Group out of Miami. Whatever ends up being developed, I'm hoping it becomes Jacksonville's tallest tower. Curious to hear what others think.

On another note, now that he's acquired more land near Talleyrand and starting work on the garage, I wonder if we'll start seeing some movement around Friendship Fountain as well?

Not too long ago (wish I could find it), someone, from Miami/South Florida I believe, did give a proposal for a tower on that site not too long after the property was razed. I too hope a nice tall tower, residential, goes on that site (y'all know me LOL). Why doesn't Ergisi look at that site or does Amkin basically has that property locked??

Amkin owns that parking lot and he was the one who proposed a 54 story tower and i hope it gets built or make it taller and have that ergisi tower built as well.

I'm pretty sure his tower "proposal" was just fluff so he could get away with razing the Greyhound station for an illegal surface parking lot with no penalty. Doubt we see any serious development on that site or any of the other properties he owns but I would love to be wrong

Quote from: Zac T on October 04, 2025, 10:54:52 PM
I'm pretty sure his tower "proposal" was just fluff so he could get away with razing the Greyhound station for an illegal surface parking lot with no penalty. Doubt we see any serious development on that site or any of the other properties he owns but I would love to be wrong

Bingo.

Quote from: Zac T on October 04, 2025, 10:54:52 PM
I'm pretty sure his tower "proposal" was just fluff so he could get away with razing the Greyhound station for an illegal surface parking lot with no penalty. Doubt we see any serious development on that site or any of the other properties he owns but I would love to be wrong

Very high possibility you are correct Zac; but....not to disrespect but I too hope you are wrong. It seems, or appears, that suddenly many people, outsiders included, are seeing the immense potential in downtown Jacksonville and its urban core. And I believe most want in on "the best kept secret" that is no longer being silent. We shall soon see (I believe). There's many hints, here and there going around.

It was back in 2019 when this proposal was let out of the bag. It's been 6 years and 2025 is almost done; AND NOTHING HAS HAPPENED. Though I still hope and have pipe dreams, I doubt that anything serious is being proposed or envisioned for that site. Click on the link below to view news media:

https://dia.jacksonville.gov/news/developer-floats-idea-to-build-downtown-s-tallest-tower

Does anyone know what's up with Maxwell house? Seems like the demo a building on the east side late last week. Now an explosion in the factory today?

No idea, but was really hoping they would do a street level little coffee shop & a factory tour for a little tiny attraction to compliment Shipyards West park.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jacksonville-firefighters-respond-explosion-downtown-maxwell-house-plant-no-one-injured/Z4F4V54IJJFF5JOONEB6OC6RLA/

Sad to see one of the few remaining turn-of-the-century warehouses from the East Bay Street warehouse district being torn down. I have no idea what Maxwell House is going to put there but I'd be surprised if its something other than more asphalt for truck parking.

Perfect opportunity for them to make a cool little coffee shop outside their factory. It's an opportunity to engage someone who isn't 67 years old into the Maxwell House Faithful.

Did anyone know about this? This was obviously, in accordance with this article, quietly done on or about January 17, 2026. I don't remember anyone in the forum posting anything about this. It appears that Related Group's Southbank Development has received final approval from Jax City Council. Check out the below article:

https://www.herejacksonville.com/jacksonville-residential-tower-approved/

HU

Quote from: heights unknown on January 31, 2026, 07:41:34 PM
Did anyone know about this? This was obviously, in accordance with this article, quietly done on or about January 17, 2026. I don't remember anyone in the forum posting anything about this. It appears that Related Group's Southbank Development has received final approval from Jax City Council. Check out the below article:

https://www.herejacksonville.com/jacksonville-residential-tower-approved/

HU

Yes! Good stuff.

It was brought up. I believe I posted about it on a different thread... I'm hopeful, but I'll be happy once I see Related Group break group and get cranes in the air... allegedly they are supposed to brake ground sometime this month... fingers crossed ...we will see...

Quote from: heights unknown on January 31, 2026, 07:41:34 PM
Did anyone know about this? This was obviously, in accordance with this article, quietly done on or about January 17, 2026. I don't remember anyone in the forum posting anything about this. It appears that Related Group's Southbank Development has received final approval from Jax City Council. Check out the below article:

https://www.herejacksonville.com/jacksonville-residential-tower-approved/

HU

Quote from: Jones518 on February 03, 2026, 01:20:15 AM
It was brought up. I believe I posted about it on a different thread... I'm hopeful, but I'll be happy once I see Related Group break group and get cranes in the air... allegedly they are supposed to brake ground sometime this month... fingers crossed ...we will see...

Quote from: heights unknown on January 31, 2026, 07:41:34 PM
Did anyone know about this? This was obviously, in accordance with this article, quietly done on or about January 17, 2026. I don't remember anyone in the forum posting anything about this. It appears that Related Group's Southbank Development has received final approval from Jax City Council. Check out the below article:

https://www.herejacksonville.com/jacksonville-residential-tower-approved/

HU

I hear you, and I definitely feel you. Our track record is poor to nil in that regard.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 26, 2026, 02:59:03 PM
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jacksonville-firefighters-respond-explosion-downtown-maxwell-house-plant-no-one-injured/Z4F4V54IJJFF5JOONEB6OC6RLA/

Sad to see one of the few remaining turn-of-the-century warehouses from the East Bay Street warehouse district being torn down. I have no idea what Maxwell House is going to put there but I'd be surprised if its something other than more asphalt for truck parking.

Crazy part is that space would yield maybe 8-10 additional semis. It's not a big space. My thought is they would try and make that an entrance to their lot because their current entrance tends to flood when the tides/weather push in.

Looks like some type of major foundation work has started beside the Ambassador?

(https://i.postimg.cc/8cbQ58mb/IMG-0274.jpg)

Foundations for the garage.  They've been at it for a few weeks.

Yes, the garage work is underway. Work on the Ambassador should begin soon as well.

Boutique Hotel...The Ambassador; gotta come downtown and stay there sometimes. I have history in the old Ambassador. Any word on what they will do with the Basement? It was a bar and liquor store back in the day.