Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Transportation/JTA-Skyway/i-pm3qkwm/0/6e97a0cb/L/20210412_152602-L.jpg)
Six years after the Jacksonville Transportation Authority announced its proposal to replace the Skyway monorail with a fleet of driverless vehicles, reports are showing the required technology is still years if not decades away. It's time for Jacksonville leaders to cut bait on JTA's expensive fantasy and focus on proven forms of transit.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/time-to-cut-bait-on-jtas-driverless-skyway-replacement/
All great points. Now, to get the attention of the new administration.
Here, here! Great article. Only wish you added that JTA's apparent reason for incorporating a future plan built around the Skyway is not only self preservation of its executive team but also a false premise that abandoning the Skyway somehow results in a financial catastrophe courtesy of the Feds. Clearly, based on the letters posted by Marcus, this is not true and the credibility of JTA is made further suspect above and beyond the points in this article.
Time to clean house... either the JTA board and/or the JTA management... if they don't back down on this project ASAP.
Was wondering when this would go up here. Great article. Encouraging to see that some members (https://twitter.com/jimmyforjax/status/1697235893021450265?s=20) of City Council have already taken note.
With two manufacturers bankrupt, the rest overseas and unlikely to come to America, the project's executive gone, and the industry already starting a body count, it has never been clearer that now is the time to pull the plug. Give JTA credit if one wants for imagining the possibilities, but it's time to get serious about the future of this region's transit. We're too big to rely on buses alone, and our major destinations too far apart to settle for a slow downtown circulator alone. The board's mandate nearly 8 years ago was to keep, modernize, and expand. With that time passed, we need a serious evaluation of whether the APM Demonstration should be part of our options or allowed to sunset in favor of new, proven solutions, with whatever cost that entails. We either need to find a way to simplify the Bay Street project so we can use its funds for other improvements or give the feds their $12.5 million back.
However we can, it's time to change course for the sake of this city. If Nat Ford, his executive team and the mayoral JTA board appointees don't want to be part of that, they are welcome to walk.
^The council member is right. For those who want to talk AV innovation and want a public transportation agency to compete with Tesla instead of focusing on running quality public transit (the Skyway is abysmal these days and breaks down so much, even its unreliable to those who use it), you can still do that with the Bay Street project that already has funding. No need to blow an additional hundreds of millions of public money at this point.
I don't think wanting to utilize the existing Skyway structure is bad idea. The stations are in decent locations and having a grade-separated system is really priceless. JTA is just looking at the wrong technology.
Light rail is fine if done correctly but that's rarely the case in the US. At-grade light rail that gets stuck in the same traffic as cars won't convince anyone to use it. At the very least, it needs to be completely grade-separated in the urban areas. A streetcar similar to the ones in DC, Atlanta, or Charlotte isn't even worth looking into imo.
I'm going to once again mention that I think automated light metro is the way to go. JTA can continue to market it as driverless and innovative (at least it would be in the US). A big benefit with the driverless trains is the ability to have higher frequencies with no extra (labor) cost, something that's not possible with light rail. It's future-proofed by being grade separated; no need to worry about blocking intersections, capacity issues, etc as time goes on (Dallas is dealing with that now (https://www.dart.org/about/plans-projects-and-initiatives/expansion/d2-subway)).
Honolulu, a smaller city, recently opened their own system so it is possible. I hope it's also considered.
Quote from: iMarvin on September 05, 2023, 12:59:21 AM
I don't think wanting to utilize the existing Skyway structure is bad idea. The stations are in decent locations and having a grade-separated system is really priceless. JTA is just looking at the wrong technology.
Definitely agree. Something like a tram or light weight streetcar would work just fine utilizing the existing Skyway structure and dropping it down to grade at every terminus spot......except at Bay and Hogan.
QuoteLight rail is fine if done correctly but that's rarely the case in the US. At-grade light rail that gets stuck in the same traffic as cars won't convince anyone to use it. At the very least, it needs to be completely grade-separated in the urban areas. A streetcar similar to the ones in DC, Atlanta, or Charlotte isn't even worth looking into imo.
Anything that shares lanes with cars should be a non-starter. No matter the mode. The key, regardless of the technology is a mix of grade separation and dedicated transit right-of-way. So from that perspective, the Skyway structure is a positive public transit amenity that can't be built for an affordable price today. So there is value in keeping it.
QuoteI'm going to once again mention that I think automated light metro is the way to go. JTA can continue to market it as driverless and innovative (at least it would be in the US). A big benefit with the driverless trains is the ability to have higher frequencies with no extra (labor) cost, something that's not possible with light rail. It's future-proofed by being grade separated; no need to worry about blocking intersections, capacity issues, etc as time goes on (Dallas is dealing with that now (https://www.dart.org/about/plans-projects-and-initiatives/expansion/d2-subway)).
Honolulu, a smaller city, recently opened their own system so it is possible. I hope it's also considered.
If we're talking about expanding grade separation throughout the urban core, that's likely DOA when talking about attempting to expand into neighborhoods like Springfield and Riverside. Luckily, we may be 100 years away from being anywhere close to the size of the Metroplex.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2023, 08:27:11 AMIf we're talking about expanding grade separation throughout the urban core, that's likely DOA when talking about attempting to expand into neighborhoods like Springfield and Riverside. Luckily, we may be 100 years away from being anywhere close to the size of the Metroplex.
It would definitely be a challenge but I don't see how you can build a true car-alternative without it. Any dedicated transit lane in Riverside/Avondale is going to require a complete street makeover anyway, so you might as well just go all out imo.
I think grade separation becomes more popular once people realize it's either that or taking away parking and/or travel lanes. Personally, I'd say why not both (elevated viaduct down the median of Main Street with expanded sidewalks and protected bike lanes) but I won't push my luck.
^ Someone should study the street retail activity where the Skyway runs. I know when it was being built, it killed off most of the remaining retail in Downtown and I don't recall much retail returning along its arteries to this day. Maybe someone can double check my recall.
It seems to me there is a human aversion to "being under the tracks" Due to their scale, they do come across as "industrial" so maybe that is a big part of it. I do think running them slightly elevated on a berm with over/underpasses might me more acceptable.
Over on FB, JTA has made a self-congratulatory post on their AV program. It would be interesting to see how long a link to the "cut bait" article would last.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 05, 2023, 11:51:12 AM
^ Someone should study the street retail activity where the Skyway runs. I know when it was being built, it killed off most of the remaining retail in Downtown and I don't recall much retail returning along its arteries to this day. Maybe someone can double check my recall.
It seems to me there is a human aversion to "being under the tracks" Due to their scale, they do come across as "industrial" so maybe that is a big part of it. I do think running them slightly elevated on a berm with over/underpasses might me more acceptable.
I get it; most people think of the train lines in New York and Chicago when it comes to elevated tracks. But those were built 100 years ago... there's no need to build something like that anymore. I honestly don't know if there are any good US examples of an elevated line running through a historic/urban area.
I think Medellín (https://www.google.com/maps/@6.2441894,-75.571003,3a,75y,215.13h,97.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srpTrQAW0ef4zggZOgKKCOg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e2?entry=ttu) did a pretty good job. I'm sure there are more examples around the world.
Re: Honolulu, worth noting that despite Jacksonville having a larger population in both the city proper and metro area, Honolulu is about 4 times as dense a metro area. There would probably really need to be an obvious plan for serious upzoning around the stations for the federal government to support the cost of developing a similar system to Honolulu's. I agree that that a Skyline-style light metro would be the optimal choice for a region as geographically large as ours (or perhaps even something like the RRTS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi%E2%80%93Meerut_Regional_Rapid_Transit_System) in India). Now that those systems have already been built, we can take advantage of what they've learned to reduce the cost of building them here, especially if future extensions begin to reach towards more distant places like town center or the beach.
Leveraging the existing Skyway infrastructure seems to keep getting us into this strange cycle regarding the elevated guideway and its expansion that ultimately helped lead JTA to justify autonomous vehicles by requiring expansions to be at-grade. So either we need to figure out a way to build the guideway (especially one that can handle heavier trains) into those areas that they'll accept or decide now to skip them with it if they don't want it.
I know the idea of a lightweight tram has come up before, and it seems the feasibility of one has generally been questionable. I think the most visible study in the past on it has been this one (https://www.jtafla.com/media/hdlbt5gj/1_draft_skyway_technology_assessment_report_082015.pdf) from 2015. I wonder if it would be any help for the city or JTA to find someone to explicitly study the prospect of a conversion of that nature. Something like the Siemens LRVs being built for Cleveland and which already run in San Francisco, Calgary, and Edmonton could be a model to follow if we can figure out how to reconfigure the guideway to support their weight. Given the degree of reconstruction JTA suggested would be needed anyway for the U2C, it could be worth pursuing a fix for rail transit.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 05, 2023, 11:51:12 AM
^ Someone should study the street retail activity where the Skyway runs. I know when it was being built, it killed off most of the remaining retail in Downtown and I don't recall much retail returning along its arteries to this day. Maybe someone can double check my recall.
It seems to me there is a human aversion to "being under the tracks" Due to their scale, they do come across as "industrial" so maybe that is a big part of it. I do think running them slightly elevated on a berm with over/underpasses might me more acceptable.
I mean there's the U2C TOD study (https://online.flippingbook.com/view/657074596/).
Quote from: Charles Hunter on September 04, 2023, 04:53:07 PM
All great points. Now, to get the attention of the new administration.
They're aware of the different perspectives on this.
Interesting for this news to drop now.
https://www.jtafla.com/media-center/press-releases/jacksonville-transportation-authority-jta-and-florida-state-college-at-jacksonville-to-advance-autonomous-vehicle-innovation-with-new-service-on-fscj-downtown-campus/
What confuses me is that I thought the whole idea of the Agile projects was supposed to be a follow-on program to the U2C, taking the completed project downtown and applying its lessons to create dozens of new AV networks on campuses across the region. This is the first time I've heard of it proposed as part of the R&D (sorry, "Test & Learn") for the U2C itself.
More importantly, I don't really see how this would address any of the known challenges with the U2C. FSCJ isn't the size of a football stadium, it doesn't sound like this strays far away from the campus if at all, hasn't navigated any of the regulatory issues including the very low speed limit. What would this do that no other AV pilot has done? How would it be any better or different than the SWAN shuttle, or the runs in Gainesville, or any number of other previous AV pilot programs?
That's dumb. You could walk clear from one side of FSCJ's campus to the other in like 5 minutes.
For a pilot or innovation experiment, this is fine. We just need to stop talking like this is an alternative to mass transit solutions. It's simply a first, last mile option that can compliment mass transit.
JTA has quietly made some updates to the U2C website (https://u2c.jtafla.com).
The Bay Street Innovation Corridor section now notes that it was procured using a Progressive Project Delivery Agreement, and provides a timeline declaring that construction will begin in January 2024 and operations will commence in June 2025.
The Skyway Conversion section now specifies the funding made available by the LOGT (totaling $246.84 million), provides a timeline for their PD&E study procurement (set to complete sometime this fall), and most interestingly seems to suggest that the proposed O&M facility in LaVilla is part of that phase and not the BSIC. If this is not an error, I wonder if it might be because costs have continued to escalate for the BSIC to the point they need to draw from LOGT funds in order to pay for the facility.
There's also a new section for the RAISE Planning Grant received in FY 2021, which they are apparently still negotiating with USDOT, but plan to complete by the end of September 2026.
JTA today released a fourteen minute video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbKIoYCndj0) defending the U2C project and deriding its detractors. It includes the following quote:
QuoteLike anything new, autonomous technology has its detractors, most from those not involved in the transportation industry or who have worked with AVs in any way. But the public transit industry professionals who have been studying and testing it for several years, like those at the JTA and elsewhere in Florida, and the nearly 40 agencies across the United States, know that this technology works and is the future of transportation.
The video includes renderings of the proposed O&M facility in LaVilla (featuring a redesign) and also notes that JTA has failed to receive an FTA waiver from Buy America requirements and is now asking the city to allow for the establishment of dedicated lanes on Bay Street because they could cut travel time by half. It does not include a cost estimate of the project, although it does say that "cost projections have continued to change, due in part to supply chain issues and other factors."
So things are going great, clearly.
QuoteLike anything new, autonomous technology has its detractors, most from those not involved in the transportation industry or who have worked with AVs in any way. But the public transit industry professionals who have been studying and testing it for several years, like those at the JTA and elsewhere in Florida, and the nearly 40 agencies across the United States, know that this technology works and is the future of transportation.
When I read the bold phrase here, I thought it was an apt description of the JTA team, not the public ;D.
I would like JTA to cite those "industry professionals" and "agencies" who "know this technology works" for mass transit vehicles as JTA proposes. Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock....
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 13, 2023, 08:53:26 PM
JTA today released a fourteen minute video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbKIoYCndj0) defending the U2C project and deriding its detractors. It includes the following quote:
QuoteLike anything new, autonomous technology has its detractors, most from those not involved in the transportation industry or who have worked with AVs in any way. But the public transit industry professionals who have been studying and testing it for several years, like those at the JTA and elsewhere in Florida, and the nearly 40 agencies across the United States, know that this technology works and is the future of transportation.
The video includes renderings of the proposed O&M facility in LaVilla (featuring a redesign) and also notes that JTA has failed to receive an FTA waiver from Buy America requirements and is now asking the city to allow for the establishment of dedicated lanes on Bay Street because they could cut travel time by half. It does not include a cost estimate of the project, although it does say that "cost projections have continued to change, due in part to supply chain issues and other factors."
So things are going great, clearly.
Nothing screams security like attacking the critics personally instead of attacking the arguments.
Can't afford a simple, no-frills Skyway connection to Brooklyn using largely existing infrastructure but let's add dedicated clown car lanes on Bay Street now? Talk about throwing good money after bad.
Whole thing needs to be shut down.
Good video. It literally proves this transportation expert's points! What I've been saying for years are playing out exactly as predicted:
1. Larger vehicles are needed to increase capacity to make the expense worthwhile.
2. Regardless of rolling stock and/or technology, dedicated lanes and ROW is needed from a safety and reliability perspective.
3. I've always said, regardless of what people say locally, there are obstacles facing AVs outside of Jax's and JTA's control that still must be overcome.
Surprisingly, this video mentions one of them. We still need an AV manufacturer to build a plant in the U.S. Eventually, that will happen (or we'll change the law requiring this), but it won't before 2025.
Unfortunately, these issues will likely raise the overall costs of this thing, making it cost more than streetcar but with less overall capacity and ability to stimulate TOD. As for the people in the video, the lion's share are personally invested in the industry, pitch woo to JTA to get contracts or live off taxpayer funds. So they don't mean much to me. It would be different if this were a cross section of Jax's non AV/JTA-linked individuals.
The one new thing that caught my eye was the change in the design of the maintenance center in LaVilla. The design isn't there yet, but a little better than what was shown to me two weeks ago. .
When the project eventually goes belly up, this structure can be used for something that actually enhances street life and activity in LaVilla.
However, I'm not aware of a workshop with the LaVilla Heritage Trail & Gateway Committee taking place since the DDRB deferral last month. The video may be a bit misleading there.
From the T-U article, it sounds like the plan for dedicated U2C lanes involves removing all on-street parking from Bay Street.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/09/14/automated-shuttle-transit-corridor-will-cost-more-to-build-by-2025/70836746007/
That should be good for business.
^Basically shows the lack of true community engagement. I can't imagine any business owner in downtown is favor of removing on-street parking in front of their storefronts. Broad Street in LaVilla is a good example of this. Removing parallel parking to put in bus lanes has not led to one storefront opening on Broad.
I do agree that they need dedicated lanes. However, the solution must not sacrifice on street parking. It's going to have to involve removing a travel lane and narrowing down the rest. Since the ROW is constrained, this could mean that Bay Street isn't the right street for the U2C. Unfortunately, if there was true community engagement, we would have figured that out years ago.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 14, 2023, 01:56:42 PM
From the T-U article, it sounds like the plan for dedicated U2C lanes involves removing all on-street parking from Bay Street.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/09/14/automated-shuttle-transit-corridor-will-cost-more-to-build-by-2025/70836746007/
That should be good for business.
LOL, up to $65 million now?! Another prediction nailed here. The cost has risen again to the point where my most recent editorial about the U2C is already out of date. At what point do we start using common sense with this? There's still an opportunity to save face for JTA without lighting an additional hundreds of millions in local public tax money on fire.
It seems like JTA is intentionally creating sunk costs such that we get to a point where, politically, the city can't walk away from the project.
Why did the cost increase? Because of an entirely foreseeable situation where JTA face-palms and exclaims, "Gee, we can't use the Skyway O&M facility! Silly us, we forgot the Skyway had to continue operating! Oh well, we already have $49 million, what's $16M more?"
Why blow $65 million on a full build-out of an AV implementation on Bay Street without running any kind of pilot there? How much would it have cost to run a bus-based shuttle along the proposed route and stand up a few bare-bones stops to test the concept and demand for such a transit loop? Because...the BSIC isn't really meant to be true transit; it's just an extension of Armsdale, and $65 million in sunk costs means we're stuck with it. Also, by running a pilot, they might inadvertently prove that buses would be a highly cost-effective solution. Can't have that! Or worse still, that if buses aren't successful, maybe there's no demand for this route. Certainly if we can wait 10 years (2015-2025), we aren't desperate for a BSIC route.
Why not propose dedicated ROW from day 1? Certainly they knew it was preferable and would ease implementation. But then, they might not have gotten the support of Council if they realized the true scope of the tradeoffs. Surfacing these tradeoffs only after years of sunk time and cost into research and planning allows them to shrug and say, "Well, we've come this far...."
--
Regarding the video, it's hard not to laugh at the list of "experts" they use to prop up their argument that transit professionals "know this technology works." Who knows the technology works? Well, of course, all of those stakeholders whose livelihoods depend on it working! But don't just trust them--ask a few corporate reps who have everything to gain from JTA's reckless pursuit of AVs! They'll vouch for it! Meanwhile, JTA enthusiastically positions itself as the first penguin into the water.
Conspicuously lacking is even a single shred of data from the 8 years of "study" at JTA or anywhere else. If they had any interest in silencing their detractors, they would address head-on how they've solved for the well-known issues that plague AVs.
Just reading through the entire TU article:
Quote"For operational purposes, we're not there yet," Regional Transit System Director Jesus Gomez told the Gainesville Sun of the results. "There's a lot of things we'd need to change for it to become a regular transit option."
The Gainesville service generally got good reviews from riders, but motorists didn't like being behind slow-moving shuttles going 9 mph.
QuoteFord said it's an "apples to oranges" comparison between the vehicles used in pilot projects and the heightened specifications JTA will use for the U2C shuttles. For instance, he said the U2C shuttles will have multiple types of technology to guide them for different conditions. He said the will operate just as well in heavy rain as in sunshine. The shuttles will operate at speeds between 15 mph and 25 mph. The first phase will have 12 to 15 of the vehicles.
Only a fool would believe that something moving this slow in mixed traffic, won't frustrate the hell out of human drivers and lead to safety issues, as drivers speed around them in a downtown environment. It's really hard for me to understand how anyone using logic, can take this serious. No amount of sensors added are going to resolve this issue when operating in mixed traffic. Gainesville is literally telling us what will happen. Lake Nona is a good example too. There, people get frustrated and speed through crosswalks and four-way stops to get passed the slow moving AVs. So the human driver now manually moves the AV over to allow frustrated drivers to pass, when the back-up behind them gets long. No amount of testing in Armsdale is going to trump human behavior. This is a prime reason why dedicated lanes/ROW is critical.
Quote"They're going to hold us to the same standard running this operation with autonomous vehicles as they do with our fixed-route bus service," Gillis said. "That's why everyone is looking at us because when we make this work —and we will — all the other transit agencies will say, 'Okay, JTA wrote the playbook, we know how to put these into revenue service for ourselves.'"
People like looking as disasters in the making. Faces of Death made millions. Traffic backs up on the interstates all the time, only to find the congestion caused by people slowing down to look at wrecks on the side of the road. So, having everyone look at you isn't necessarily a good thing.
Unfortunately, the poor little taxpayer just wants transit that is reliable, works and is cost effective. From that perspective, it's okay if our transit agency focuses on running efficient, cost effective public transit, instead of trying to compete with Silicon Valley startups.
QuoteThe main reason for the latest increase in the cost of the first phase of the U2C down Bay Street is it will include building a new $9.4 operations and maintenance center for the system. JTA originally intended to use the existing Skyway operation center but needs to keep that operating for the Skyway so it can run while work occurs on the Bay Street corridor.
This doesn't make sense. The maintenance center was proposed a long time before this year. That can't account for the price jump between February 2023 and now.
QuoteShe said Bay Street willl be a "smart corridor" with intelligent transportation system technology for traffic signals, lighting and enhanced crosswalks. Eventually, the dedicated lanes for U2C shuttles could be used by other public transportation vehicles, bicycles and scooters.
Another idea that should be taken out back and quickly put to death. Bicycles and scooters should not share dedicated transit ROW. That's another disaster waiting to happen.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 14, 2023, 03:08:20 PMOnly a fool would believe that something moving this slow in mixed traffic, won't frustrate the hell out of human drivers and lead to safety issues, as drivers speed around them in a downtown environment. It's really hard for me to understand how anyone using logic, can take this serious. No amount of sensors added are going to resolve this issue when operating in mixed traffic.
This is already a REALLY dangerous stretch too thanks to the bizarre monstrosity the city has created to avoid fully removing the Hart Bridge flyover.
A series of like 60 weirdly timed red lights; blind traffic signals that you can't see until you're nearly off the ramps; I literally see accidents at least once a week coming off or leading up to the Hart Bridge.
Toss in clown cars going 10 mph (where are the 15 van-loads of paying customers looking for a 22-minute, $5 ride from LaVilla to the Stadium coming from?), it's a recipe for disaster.
Fully agree that Bay Street isn't the right spot for dedicated clowncar lanes either.
Man, talk about not learning from our transit mistakes.
Something like a street car system running from RAM or Five Points to the stadium, with routes into Springfield, the East Side, and San Marco would such a wiser investment, and would actually spur honest-to-God TOD.
But JTA is smarter than every city in America. No, smarter than just about every major city in the world.
They're all watching Jacksonville! Eyes fixed on 10 mph clown cars transporting businessmen with hobos in their laps from Captain Sandy's demolished restaurant to the Shipyards brownfields at a public cost of $8 million per ride.
Boy are they gonna have eggs on their faces.
Geez, you go to get groceries and this bomb drops. More than $20 million overbudget. And to have the
gall to tell us we don't know what we're talking about while this spirals out of control. What an upsetting read.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 14, 2023, 02:05:05 PM
I do agree that they need dedicated lanes. However, the solution must not sacrifice on street parking. It's going to have to involve removing a travel lane and narrowing down the rest. Since the ROW is constrained, this could mean that Bay Street isn't the right street for the U2C. Unfortunately, if there was true community engagement, we would have figured that out years ago.
Fundamentally the problem here is that JTA lied to themselves and everyone with their insistence that AV shuttles could work in mixed traffic. The ability to operate in mixed traffic was fundamentally part of the premise behind justifying autonomous vehicles over existing technology. It's good that they're finally admitting those limitations exist, but tragic that they've done so while insisting we should continue to trust that no really, this time they've got it and it'll be great.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 14, 2023, 02:05:05 PM
LOL, up to $65 million now?! Another prediction nailed here. The cost has risen again to the point where my most recent editorial about the U2C is already out of date. At what point do we start using common sense with this? There's still an opportunity to save face for JTA without lighting an additional hundreds of millions in local public tax money on fire.
I just think it's funny that the article still cites the $247 million estimate for the Skyway conversion.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on September 14, 2023, 02:55:09 PM
It seems like JTA is intentionally creating sunk costs such that we get to a point where, politically, the city can't walk away from the project.
Why did the cost increase? Because of an entirely foreseeable situation where JTA face-palms and exclaims, "Gee, we can't use the Skyway O&M facility! Silly us, we forgot the Skyway had to continue operating! Oh well, we already have $49 million, what's $16M more?"
You think?
QuoteFord said the technology for automated vehicles is the wave of the future and offers far more flexibility for tailoring routes and service options than putting transit on tracks. He said the Federal Transit Administration has awarded about $200 million in competitive grants to JTA since 2016 because it will "finish what we started and fulfill our commitments."
"I see that enthusiasm bubble being burst if we're not very careful," board member Ari Jolly said.
Also they've had that block at Bay and Jefferson marked for the AV O&M facility since at least 2019, so either they're telling now about a decision that was made 4 years ago or they made up a justification now.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on September 14, 2023, 02:55:09 PM
Why blow $65 million on a full build-out of an AV implementation on Bay Street without running any kind of pilot there? How much would it have cost to run a bus-based shuttle along the proposed route and stand up a few bare-bones stops to test the concept and demand for such a transit loop? Because...the BSIC isn't really meant to be true transit; it's just an extension of Armsdale, and $65 million in sunk costs means we're stuck with it. Also, by running a pilot, they might inadvertently prove that buses would be a highly cost-effective solution. Can't have that! Or worse still, that if buses aren't successful, maybe there's no demand for this route. Certainly if we can wait 10 years (2015-2025), we aren't desperate for a BSIC route.
It's especially worth remembering here that at this point over 60% of the funding is JTA/COJ money. As the article notes, the federal grant is only $12.5 million, matched by $13 million from FDOT. The remaining $39.5 million is local. I understand the concern that giving back the grant might cool future funding opportunities but there's no way the cost-benefit of going forward with this project is worth it for anyone other than the executives in charge of it.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 14, 2023, 04:10:27 PM
Fully agree that Bay Street isn't the right spot for dedicated clowncar lanes either.
Man, talk about not learning from our transit mistakes.
Something like a street car system running from RAM or Five Points to the stadium, with routes into Springfield, the East Side, and San Marco would such a wiser investment, and would actually spur honest-to-God TOD.
But JTA is smarter than every city in America. No, smarter than just about every major city in the world.
They're all watching Jacksonville! Eyes fixed on 10 mph clown cars transporting businessmen with hobos in their laps from Captain Sandy's demolished restaurant to the Shipyards brownfields at a public cost of $8 million per ride.
Boy are they gonna have eggs on their faces.
I think more recently the feds have cooled a bit on rail projects without more significant ridership potential (read: either serious TOD plans with the zoning to match or an existing served population that has a real chance of riding), so a streetcar might not make it into the Capital Improvement Grants program like it could have a decade ago, but $65 million (not to mention the additional $247 million already piling up in the bank) is more than enough to decide on and start implementing a real vision for not just downtown circulation but regional mass transit. We can't afford to keep spinning wheels the way we have for the last 8 years but we can't afford to blow hundreds of millions on Nat Ford's self-driving dream either.
It is beyond time for this city's leadership to take accountability and put an end to this experiment before we can't anymore.
Congrats, we will have driverless cars in a dedicated ROW moving on a fixed line. How impressive. Probably the most expensive form of fixed-route transit ever. In lieu of using these things called rails, we will use millions of dollars of imaging technology to do the exact same thing, with less capacity. We should really be celebrating this great (regressive) achievement.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 14, 2023, 04:10:27 PM
This is already a REALLY dangerous stretch too thanks to the bizarre monstrosity the city has created to avoid fully removing the Hart Bridge flyover.
correction - FDOT
I saw where the Mayor is proposing some new members to the JTA. Any idea where they stand on boondoggles?
Hoping they will at least clear out the big amount of rubber stamping on these boards. That alone will be a huge benefit for Jacksonville as a whole.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on September 14, 2023, 09:44:26 PM
I saw where the Mayor is proposing some new members to the JTA. Any idea where they stand on boondoggles?
I hadn't heard of the picks until some responses to my thread on Twitter (https://x.com/marcuscnelson/status/1702490712573415809?s=20) about this whole mess. I'm curious which current board members these two would be replacing. And it seems notable, perhaps questionable, that the current board decided to approve the Bay Street budget increase knowing that there might be replacements soon.
Someone noted (https://x.com/BlackKn74938916/status/1702686041810096297?s=20) that Megan Hayward was a Cumber backer (https://x.com/meganhayward32/status/1638217265089789952?s=20), which might indicate agreement with Hussein Cumber's known stance (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/2021/05/11/guest-column-skyway-doesnt-have-place-downtown/5021831001/) on the project. Pat Gillum Sams I frankly have no idea about, but I'd be careful knowing that JTA has attempted to argue before that AVs are the only way to provide transportation equity for minorities in underserved communities. Obviously that's not true, but they'd probably try to keep pushing that point.
Obviously, that's a lie. It seems like some are allowing people to believe whatever they want, as long as that belief makes them support blowing public money on this project.
This article has been significantly edited since the original version. I'm sure JTA must have called to do a bit of damage control with the first one. However, just when you think this plan can get any crazier, they find a way to up the ante!
If they can't get the clown cars they seek before 2025, the Plan B is spending $65 million for a fleet of vans (being driven by humans).
What exactly are we trying to prove with this again? It has to be more than simply being the first.
Quote"Made in America" requirement constrains vehicle choices
The model of automated vehicle most commonly associated with the U2C is shaped like a toaster with big windows for viewing and doors that open in the manner of an elevator for passengers. That might not be what's in place when the system starts, however, because the federal grant has a "Buy American" requirement and those kinds of vehicles are made abroad. The "plan B" is an American-made vehicle that looks more like an extended van that doesn't stand out more than any other vehicle in traffic.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/09/14/automated-shuttle-transit-corridor-will-cost-more-to-build-by-2025/70836746007/
FIrst, what kind of, and how many, "vans" are they buying for $65 million?
Second, has JTA ever claimed the U2C - either small AVs or driven vans - operate for special events in the Sports Complex? Is there any credibility there?
The Jacksonville Business Journal has an op-ed endorsing AVs and Innovation. Probably behind a paywall: https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2023/09/15/outside-voices-chang.html?ana=e_JA_me&j=32744717&senddate=2023-09-18
There are so many buzzwords in that op-ed I was afraid of getting stung.
The author is not a disinterested third party, having done work for JTA on the U2C
Quote
Matthew Chang is a professional engineer and founder of robotic systems engineering firm Chang Industrial and the Jacksonville Venture Competition. He served the JTA as the first team member of the autonomous vehicle practice.
^Can't take any op-ed that's written by someone that personally benefits from taxpayers spending money on AVs.
We don't have to blow $500 million (lion's share of local tax money) to play with AVs and Innovation. They (AVs, Skyway and public transit needs in Jax) are separate issues that are intentionally being linked to keep the gravy train growing.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on September 16, 2023, 08:17:44 AMSecond, has JTA ever claimed the U2C - either small AVs or driven vans - operate for special events in the Sports Complex? Is there any credibility there?
JTA's claims aside, the very idea seems to stretch credibility.
Using what we know about the system, and what we know about the existing technology, I think it's safe to assume that the Bay Street Corridor will employ:
- Approximately 10 AV clown cars
- With a capacity of approximately 10 clowns/car
- Going a max speed in mixed traffic of 10 mph
We also know that the loop is 3.2 miles long.
Which means that, with stops for loading and unloading, the U2C will probably average around 2 full loops per hour.
By my math, that gives the U2C as planned the ability to transport a scant 200 riders per hour, in a sports district that routinely hosts crowds of 65,000+.
By contrast, four standard JTA buses (65 capacity with standing room) doing the same loop at 30 mph, would probably average around 6 full loops per hour.
So, in the amount of time that it would take a fleet of clown cars to transport 200 people, four basic JTA buses could transport 1,560 passengers.
By my back of the napkin math, that's 680% more passengers moved per hour with four buses than with 10 clown cars.
If JTA were to run a SINGLE bus on the same 3.2 loop on gameday, it would take less than 20 minutes to fully move more passengers than an entire fleet of clown cars.
And that doesn't even account for the fact that the average bus costs around $500k, versus a network of clown cars tapped to cost literally one thousand times more ($500m+).
The very IDEA that this goofy system of microbuses classifies as "mass transportation" worthy of mass-transportation-like investment is utterly harebrained and delusional.
This system as designed couldn't even efficiently move attendees of a mid-sized conference at the Hyatt to the Sports District.
Everyone involved needs to be fired, and possibly institutionalized.
In that UNIVERSE does a quarter billion dollars in gas taxes come out of commuters pockets and go into funding a gaggle of half-baked JTA golf carts plodding between the brownfields, surface lots, grass fields, coffee factory, and prison.
In what fantasyland does this quote from JTA pass any kind of sanity test?
Quote"That's why everyone is looking at us because when we make this work —and we will — all the other transit agencies will say, 'Okay, JTA wrote the playbook, we know how to put these into revenue service for ourselves.'"
Revenue service???
Who's downloading an app, attaching their credit card, figuring out how to hail a clown car, waiting up to 20 minutes for it to plod down the street, climbing atop the drug dealer's lap, trudging down Bay Street at 10 mph while angry vehicles sharing the road honk at them, and paying $5+ for the experience? When they've already got Uber and Lyft on their phones. Where are these FIFTY MILLION RIDES necessary for this thing to make economic sense coming from?
Seriously, who is the end user? I don't think I've ever seen JTA directly address this. Where is the demand for this 3.2 mile clown car loop coming from? What problem is it trying to solve?
The whole thing is just so clearly and empirically stupid that it blows my mind that sanity hasn't won out yet and the U2C hasn't been scrapped.
Doesn't take a transportation expert to recognize that this is a historic boondoggle in the making.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on September 18, 2023, 09:56:47 AM
The Jacksonville Business Journal has an op-ed endorsing AVs and Innovation. Probably behind a paywall: https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2023/09/15/outside-voices-chang.html?ana=e_JA_me&j=32744717&senddate=2023-09-18
There are so many buzzwords in that op-ed I was afraid of getting stung.
The author is not a disinterested third party, having done work for JTA on the U2C
Quote
Matthew Chang is a professional engineer and founder of robotic systems engineering firm Chang Industrial and the Jacksonville Venture Competition. He served the JTA as the first team member of the autonomous vehicle practice.
JTA trotted out this guy two and a half years ago during the gas tax debate to say basically this same spiel.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/2021/05/15/guest-column-jobs-jax-investment-city/5081601001/
At this point, JTA needs to have a JEA-like fallout. Charges need to be seriously considered.
1). The TECHNOLOGY DOES NOT EXIST in 2018, and still in 2023. They claim it "does" (LOL).
2). The program has literally done zero. There is not a single deliverable from this project. Zero. The pilot program has had how much taxpayer $ flooded to it?
3). Is it "legal" to allow a public authority to employ individuals who are not qualified? (Not a single person in leadership at JTA with a real tech background let alone EV's).
4). All those studies to connected firms to Ford.
5). Absolutely zero progression on TOD's which was one of the original "goals" JTA had for the U2C.
6). Unable to procure a f'ing VEHICLE to utilize in more than 5 years (no, I dont care that companies went under in a VC space lololol not an excuse either)
Again, this is our transit authority.. lmfao. Take the BRT out of the equation, what has been actually done the last decade?
Before people say the technology exists, I don't count a 75% AV driving on a fixed course. That tech has been feasible for years.
Would love to see a cost and capacity analysis of the EXACT same proposed urban circulator system, only instead of using slow driverless AVs, it used a fleet of traditional shuttles/vans with salaried drivers and 5 minute headways.
Even if you had to pay like $2 million a year in driver salary, the overall cost and capacity would still have to be magnitudes cheaper.
Spot on Ken. Simple math proves your point, and I think they know it too on some level.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 18, 2023, 02:19:30 PM
Would love to see a cost and capacity analysis of the EXACT same proposed urban circulator system, only instead of using slow driverless AVs, it used a fleet of traditional shuttles/vans with salaried drivers and 5 minute headways.
Even if you had to pay like $2 million a year in driver salary, the overall cost and capacity would still have to be magnitudes cheaper.
Remember, this system will require attendants for the foreseeable future. And these require more staff per passenger than a regular bus. So you still have to pay that cost, but instead you'd go slower and pay for more salaries.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on September 18, 2023, 01:43:32 PM
At this point, JTA needs to have a JEA-like fallout. Charges need to be seriously considered.
1). The TECHNOLOGY DOES NOT EXIST in 2018, and still in 2023. They claim it "does" (LOL).
2). The program has literally done zero. There is not a single deliverable from this project. Zero. The pilot program has had how much taxpayer $ flooded to it?
3). Is it "legal" to allow a public authority to employ individuals who are not qualified? (Not a single person in leadership at JTA with a real tech background let alone EV's).
4). All those studies to connected firms to Ford.
5). Absolutely zero progression on TOD's which was one of the original "goals" JTA had for the U2C.
6). Unable to procure a f'ing VEHICLE to utilize in more than 5 years (no, I dont care that companies went under in a VC space lololol not an excuse either)
Again, this is our transit authority.. lmfao. Take the BRT out of the equation, what has been actually done the last decade?
Y'know I recall jaxlongtimer saying a lot of this a while ago. Interesting to see perhaps a growing consensus.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 18, 2023, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 18, 2023, 02:19:30 PM
Would love to see a cost and capacity analysis of the EXACT same proposed urban circulator system, only instead of using slow driverless AVs, it used a fleet of traditional shuttles/vans with salaried drivers and 5 minute headways.
Even if you had to pay like $2 million a year in driver salary, the overall cost and capacity would still have to be magnitudes cheaper.
Remember, this system will require attendants for the foreseeable future. And these require more staff per passenger than a regular bus. So you still have to pay that cost, but instead you'd go slower and pay for more salaries.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on September 18, 2023, 01:43:32 PM
At this point, JTA needs to have a JEA-like fallout. Charges need to be seriously considered.
1). The TECHNOLOGY DOES NOT EXIST in 2018, and still in 2023. They claim it "does" (LOL).
2). The program has literally done zero. There is not a single deliverable from this project. Zero. The pilot program has had how much taxpayer $ flooded to it?
3). Is it "legal" to allow a public authority to employ individuals who are not qualified? (Not a single person in leadership at JTA with a real tech background let alone EV's).
4). All those studies to connected firms to Ford.
5). Absolutely zero progression on TOD's which was one of the original "goals" JTA had for the U2C.
6). Unable to procure a f'ing VEHICLE to utilize in more than 5 years (no, I dont care that companies went under in a VC space lololol not an excuse either)
Again, this is our transit authority.. lmfao. Take the BRT out of the equation, what has been actually done the last decade?
Y'know I recall jaxlongtimer saying a lot of this a while ago. Interesting to see perhaps a growing consensus.
Where are they going to get these attendants?
JTA can't hire enough bus drivers right now to run the system. Why do you think the BRTs have been stuck at 30 minute frequencies?
If they really want an autonomous system then go with driverless trains. Spending so much on a system that has so many unanswered questions, with quite literally zero successful implementations anywhere in the world, makes no sense.
I think a lot of people that would normally express strong opinions about projects/issues in Jax have to hold back a bit due to conflicts or connections, so I really appreciate KenFSU absolutely letting it rip from time to time.
This has probably been discussed on here before, so forgive me, but has there been any talk about JTA running a pilot program along the route to you know, see how much demand there is to ride something like this? Obviously employing clown cars the whole way would be more convenient and efficient than having to make a connection. Not to mention in a dream world it will lead to TOD and increased future demand, but is there any appetite for people to currently ride this route?
West Palm Beach is currently doing a pilot program (Ride WPB) in Downtown that offers free rides from a variety of vehicle types and connects to Brightline and Tri-Rail and hits a lot of key areas. Plenty of other cities do things like this before making major capital expenditures. Not exactly an out there concept...
https://ridewpb.com/
With the amount of money being thrown around in Jax, why not do a pilot and see how well the routes work? We all know the answer to that question.
Quote from: CityLife on September 18, 2023, 04:58:35 PM
I think a lot of people that would normally express strong opinions about projects/issues in Jax have to hold back a bit due to conflicts or connections, so I really appreciate KenFSU absolutely letting it rip from time to time.
This has probably been discussed on here before, so forgive me, but has there been any talk about JTA running a pilot program along the route to you know, see how much demand there is to ride something like this? Obviously employing clown cars the whole way would be more convenient and efficient than having to make a connection. Not to mention in a dream world it will lead to TOD and increased future demand, but is there any appetite for people to currently ride this route?
West Palm Beach is currently doing a pilot program (Ride WPB) in Downtown that offers free rides from a variety of vehicle types and connects to Brightline and Tri-Rail and hits a lot of key areas. Plenty of other cities do things like this before making major capital expenditures. Not exactly an out there concept...
https://ridewpb.com/
With the amount of money being thrown around in Jax, why not do a pilot and see how well the routes work? We all know the answer to that question.
The JTA-AV response would be,
"Until the Four Seasons and the Stadium of the Future and Lot J 3.1 are up and running, you don't have a good test of what the huge demand will be."At one time, JTA
did run test routes before building a capital-intensive system. Back in the 1970s the had 3 Downtown Shuttle bus routes to demonstrate demand for a downtown circulator before building the People Mover (prior name of Skyway).
Oh, and iMarvin, we already have "driverless trains" - the existing Skyway.
Quote from: CityLife on September 18, 2023, 04:58:35 PM
I think a lot of people that would normally express strong opinions about projects/issues in Jax have to hold back a bit due to conflicts or connections, so I really appreciate KenFSU absolutely letting it rip from time to time.
This has probably been discussed on here before, so forgive me, but has there been any talk about JTA running a pilot program along the route to you know, see how much demand there is to ride something like this? Obviously employing clown cars the whole way would be more convenient and efficient than having to make a connection. Not to mention in a dream world it will lead to TOD and increased future demand, but is there any appetite for people to currently ride this route?
West Palm Beach is currently doing a pilot program (Ride WPB) in Downtown that offers free rides from a variety of vehicle types and connects to Brightline and Tri-Rail and hits a lot of key areas. Plenty of other cities do things like this before making major capital expenditures. Not exactly an out there concept...
https://ridewpb.com/
With the amount of money being thrown around in Jax, why not do a pilot and see how well the routes work? We all know the answer to that question.
I've said this before, but it's been obvious for a while (hell, even this new op-ed does it) that this project hasn't been about providing a transit service for the neighborhood or region since 2016. The U2C isn't a transit program, it's an
innovation program, and JTA themselves will tell you that. The problem has been that leadership both at JTA and the city don't give a damn about transit (because they're mostly well-to-do bankers and lawyers and nonprofit leaders who all drive anyway), so they're sellable on the concept espoused in the op-ed that an innovation project will somehow attract global attention and economic development.
Quote from: CityLife on September 18, 2023, 04:58:35 PM
I think a lot of people that would normally express strong opinions about projects/issues in Jax have to hold back a bit due to conflicts or connections, so I really appreciate KenFSU absolutely letting it rip from time to time.
This has probably been discussed on here before, so forgive me, but has there been any talk about JTA running a pilot program along the route to you know, see how much demand there is to ride something like this? Obviously employing clown cars the whole way would be more convenient and efficient than having to make a connection. Not to mention in a dream world it will lead to TOD and increased future demand, but is there any appetite for people to currently ride this route?
West Palm Beach is currently doing a pilot program (Ride WPB) in Downtown that offers free rides from a variety of vehicle types and connects to Brightline and Tri-Rail and hits a lot of key areas. Plenty of other cities do things like this before making major capital expenditures. Not exactly an out there concept...
https://ridewpb.com/
With the amount of money being thrown around in Jax, why not do a pilot and see how well the routes work? We all know the answer to that question.
I recommended this to Brad Thoburn and Richard Clark very early in their dive into AVs several years ago. I recommended they run a pilot down Park Street between the Skyway in LaVilla and Five Points. It could have operated like an extension of the Skyway, while connecting Brooklyn and Five Points to downtown. I expected that this would likely never happen because Jax would find out real quick what the problems are and that this is no mass transit solution. However, doing that also means that the gravy train of burning tax dollars on this stuff, ends up with a quick death.
Ironically, the state of Florida funded a pretty significant study to prove the benefits of driverless train technology available in 2021. When you consider the reduced cost of that solution (aka less labor), combined with the capacity... absolute no brainer IMO. The Skyway platform just needs to be brought to street level and expanded from the existing footprint to the Stadium, Springfield, Riverside and San Marco East Plaza. Let's just call it 10 miles. At $50M a mile, we magically get to $500M.
Yeah, I think I'd rather have that than an extremely inconvenient (& worse) uber.
The technical issue from the beginning with that has always been that you can't have a grade crossing of an automated guideway technology with something that isn't. For traditional steel rail-based systems that's a technical issue, but for the current Skyway technology that's a physical issue, because the beam physically cannot be crossed at grade level. As Lake has said before, the San Marco extension is probably feasible if one can get the beam under I-95 and then over or next to the FEC where it can then travel at grade to a station, but anything else would run into problems.
Given what we've seen and learned the last 7 years and the funding we know is available or could be made available it seems there are two broad courses of action that could be taken at this point if we choose to abort the U2C program in its current form:
- Modernize the existing Skyway with a standard technology and reexamine the preferred expansion alternatives. The ideal option would be figuring out as fast as possible how to convert the system to Miami's standards to enable a larger joint order for vehicles and systems. Once that's underway, decide independently whether to expand it as an elevated system for big things like the stadium district or perhaps as more of a Lymmo-style shuttle for things like the hospitals. Places in Asia have managed to run these as effectively full metro systems before so maybe the goal should move in that direction long-term. This fits the original mandate of "Keep, Modernize, Expand."
- Commit to running the Skyway until it physically cannot go on for operational or safety reasons, but in the meantime develop the plans to tear it down, payback any remaining federal obligations if required (but lobby via our legislative delegation for that to be reconsidered in light of the DPM program overall), and plan a new mass transit system without the burden of the Skyway legacy (but perhaps reuses its alignment if ideal).
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 19, 2023, 10:08:04 AM
The technical issue from the beginning with that has always been that you can't have a grade crossing of an automated guideway technology with something that isn't. For traditional steel rail-based systems that's a technical issue, but for the current Skyway technology that's a physical issue, because the beam physically cannot be crossed at grade level. As Lake has said before, the San Marco extension is probably feasible if one can get the beam under I-95 and then over or next to the FEC where it can then travel at grade to a station, but anything else would run into problems.
Given what we've seen and learned the last 7 years and the funding we know is available or could be made available it seems there are two broad courses of action that could be taken at this point if we choose to abort the U2C program in its current form:
- Modernize the existing Skyway with a standard technology and reexamine the preferred expansion alternatives. The ideal option would be figuring out as fast as possible how to convert the system to Miami's standards to enable a larger joint order for vehicles and systems. Once that's underway, decide independently whether to expand it as an elevated system for big things like the stadium district or perhaps as more of a Lymmo-style shuttle for things like the hospitals. Places in Asia have managed to run these as effectively full metro systems before so maybe the goal should move in that direction long-term. This fits the original mandate of "Keep, Modernize, Expand."
- Commit to running the Skyway until it physically cannot go on for operational or safety reasons, but in the meantime develop the plans to tear it down, payback any remaining federal obligations if required (but lobby via our legislative delegation for that to be reconsidered in light of the DPM program overall), and plan a new mass transit system without the burden of the Skyway legacy (but perhaps reuses its alignment if ideal).
But at $50M per mile, can't the current guideway be reused somehow? Is it really that undersized? I feel like tearing it down doesn't make sense, rather investing in making it usable. There are parts of town where an extension could hug existing freeways. The riverside corridor is the most unlikely given they aren't doing Brooklyn but even Brooklyn would be an improvement.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on September 18, 2023, 05:30:34 PMOh, and iMarvin, we already have "driverless trains" - the existing Skyway.
I meant a more standard technology. Something that would be able to be expanded outside of the urban core (or at the very least, outside of Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield). The current Skyway technology is too slow and small to ever be anything more than a glorified people mover. That's fine, I guess, but there's a better way to spend $500 million. Couple that with a potential federal + state match and there's enough money to build something very substantial.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on September 19, 2023, 10:47:40 AM
But at $50M per mile, can't the current guideway be reused somehow? Is it really that undersized? I feel like tearing it down doesn't make sense, rather investing in making it usable. There are parts of town where an extension could hug existing freeways. The riverside corridor is the most unlikely given they aren't doing Brooklyn but even Brooklyn would be an improvement.
Probably not if you're trying to build a practical rail transit system for a region of our size. The central issues would be both the weight the existing infrastructure can tolerate and the capacity in terms of station length for trains in the long run. One of the largest uses of this neighborhood of APM technology is Taipei's Wenhu line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenhu_line), and that only runs about 15 and a half miles on the edge of the region compared to the major trunk lines (Wenhu is the brown line on this map):
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/2023_Taipei_MRT_official_map.png)
All the major lines aside from brown use faster, heavier, steel-wheel rolling stock. For Jacksonville, if we're willing to make the investment both financially and from a zoning standpoint it would probably make more sense for how far apart things are (and yes, our lower density) to meet in about the middle with something akin to Vancouver's Skytrain (which uses the same technology as the Detroit People Mover, ironically) or Honolulu's Skyline, which also uses the same technology as the Circular (yellow) line in Taipei. We probably don't need anything like what New York or Washington or Atlanta have, but the Skyway's current technology and alignment limit it to around 35 miles per hour, and that's not going to competitive for trips to the further reaches of town.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on September 19, 2023, 10:47:40 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 19, 2023, 10:08:04 AM
The technical issue from the beginning with that has always been that you can't have a grade crossing of an automated guideway technology with something that isn't. For traditional steel rail-based systems that's a technical issue, but for the current Skyway technology that's a physical issue, because the beam physically cannot be crossed at grade level. As Lake has said before, the San Marco extension is probably feasible if one can get the beam under I-95 and then over or next to the FEC where it can then travel at grade to a station, but anything else would run into problems.
Given what we've seen and learned the last 7 years and the funding we know is available or could be made available it seems there are two broad courses of action that could be taken at this point if we choose to abort the U2C program in its current form:
- Modernize the existing Skyway with a standard technology and reexamine the preferred expansion alternatives. The ideal option would be figuring out as fast as possible how to convert the system to Miami's standards to enable a larger joint order for vehicles and systems. Once that's underway, decide independently whether to expand it as an elevated system for big things like the stadium district or perhaps as more of a Lymmo-style shuttle for things like the hospitals. Places in Asia have managed to run these as effectively full metro systems before so maybe the goal should move in that direction long-term. This fits the original mandate of "Keep, Modernize, Expand."
- Commit to running the Skyway until it physically cannot go on for operational or safety reasons, but in the meantime develop the plans to tear it down, payback any remaining federal obligations if required (but lobby via our legislative delegation for that to be reconsidered in light of the DPM program overall), and plan a new mass transit system without the burden of the Skyway legacy (but perhaps reuses its alignment if ideal).
But at $50M per mile, can't the current guideway be reused somehow? Is it really that undersized? I feel like tearing it down doesn't make sense, rather investing in making it usable. There are parts of town where an extension could hug existing freeways. The riverside corridor is the most unlikely given they aren't doing Brooklyn but even Brooklyn would be an improvement.
There is only one realistic solution which is the second option Marcus identifies... abandon the Skyway for good. Anything to keep it going is good money after bad. No private sector decision maker would keep this thing alive. Mark my words, one day the Skyway will be gone. It is just a matter of how long it takes for someone with common sense and authority to finally kill it. In the meantime, officials are just blowing taxpayer dollars... and the AV's is Exhibit A of this tendency.
It isn't just the dollars wasted... it is what you get in return. A slow moving, low volume, street killing, expensive to build and operate and ugly to look at project.... when new money could get us something so much more cost effective. Compute the cost per passenger mile and level of service and you cannot justify the Skyway vs. almost any alternative.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 19, 2023, 11:55:10 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on September 19, 2023, 10:47:40 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 19, 2023, 10:08:04 AM
The technical issue from the beginning with that has always been that you can't have a grade crossing of an automated guideway technology with something that isn't. For traditional steel rail-based systems that's a technical issue, but for the current Skyway technology that's a physical issue, because the beam physically cannot be crossed at grade level. As Lake has said before, the San Marco extension is probably feasible if one can get the beam under I-95 and then over or next to the FEC where it can then travel at grade to a station, but anything else would run into problems.
Given what we've seen and learned the last 7 years and the funding we know is available or could be made available it seems there are two broad courses of action that could be taken at this point if we choose to abort the U2C program in its current form:
- Modernize the existing Skyway with a standard technology and reexamine the preferred expansion alternatives. The ideal option would be figuring out as fast as possible how to convert the system to Miami's standards to enable a larger joint order for vehicles and systems. Once that's underway, decide independently whether to expand it as an elevated system for big things like the stadium district or perhaps as more of a Lymmo-style shuttle for things like the hospitals. Places in Asia have managed to run these as effectively full metro systems before so maybe the goal should move in that direction long-term. This fits the original mandate of "Keep, Modernize, Expand."
- Commit to running the Skyway until it physically cannot go on for operational or safety reasons, but in the meantime develop the plans to tear it down, payback any remaining federal obligations if required (but lobby via our legislative delegation for that to be reconsidered in light of the DPM program overall), and plan a new mass transit system without the burden of the Skyway legacy (but perhaps reuses its alignment if ideal).
But at $50M per mile, can't the current guideway be reused somehow? Is it really that undersized? I feel like tearing it down doesn't make sense, rather investing in making it usable. There are parts of town where an extension could hug existing freeways. The riverside corridor is the most unlikely given they aren't doing Brooklyn but even Brooklyn would be an improvement.
There is only one realistic solution which is the second option Marcus identifies... abandon the Skyway for good. Anything to keep it going is good money after bad. No private sector decision maker would keep this thing alive. Mark my words, one day the Skyway will be gone. It is just a matter of how long it takes for someone with common sense and authority to finally kill it. In the meantime, officials are just blowing taxpayer dollars... and the AV's is Exhibit A of this tendency.
It isn't just the dollars wasted... it is what you get in return. A slow moving, low volume, street killing, expensive to build and operate and ugly to look at project.... when new money could get us something so much more cost effective. Compute the cost per passenger mile and level of service and you cannot justify the Skyway vs. almost any alternative.
I've said it on here before... doing a rebrand of the Skyway with automated light metro (similar to the systems Marcus listed in another post) would be incredible. It would completely change the city.
I don't know why we continue to pursue projects that have no real benefit... JTA needs to be stopped immediately.
Quote from: iMarvin on September 19, 2023, 12:50:19 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 19, 2023, 11:55:10 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on September 19, 2023, 10:47:40 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 19, 2023, 10:08:04 AM
The technical issue from the beginning with that has always been that you can't have a grade crossing of an automated guideway technology with something that isn't. For traditional steel rail-based systems that's a technical issue, but for the current Skyway technology that's a physical issue, because the beam physically cannot be crossed at grade level. As Lake has said before, the San Marco extension is probably feasible if one can get the beam under I-95 and then over or next to the FEC where it can then travel at grade to a station, but anything else would run into problems.
Given what we've seen and learned the last 7 years and the funding we know is available or could be made available it seems there are two broad courses of action that could be taken at this point if we choose to abort the U2C program in its current form:
- Modernize the existing Skyway with a standard technology and reexamine the preferred expansion alternatives. The ideal option would be figuring out as fast as possible how to convert the system to Miami's standards to enable a larger joint order for vehicles and systems. Once that's underway, decide independently whether to expand it as an elevated system for big things like the stadium district or perhaps as more of a Lymmo-style shuttle for things like the hospitals. Places in Asia have managed to run these as effectively full metro systems before so maybe the goal should move in that direction long-term. This fits the original mandate of "Keep, Modernize, Expand."
- Commit to running the Skyway until it physically cannot go on for operational or safety reasons, but in the meantime develop the plans to tear it down, payback any remaining federal obligations if required (but lobby via our legislative delegation for that to be reconsidered in light of the DPM program overall), and plan a new mass transit system without the burden of the Skyway legacy (but perhaps reuses its alignment if ideal).
But at $50M per mile, can't the current guideway be reused somehow? Is it really that undersized? I feel like tearing it down doesn't make sense, rather investing in making it usable. There are parts of town where an extension could hug existing freeways. The riverside corridor is the most unlikely given they aren't doing Brooklyn but even Brooklyn would be an improvement.
There is only one realistic solution which is the second option Marcus identifies... abandon the Skyway for good. Anything to keep it going is good money after bad. No private sector decision maker would keep this thing alive. Mark my words, one day the Skyway will be gone. It is just a matter of how long it takes for someone with common sense and authority to finally kill it. In the meantime, officials are just blowing taxpayer dollars... and the AV's is Exhibit A of this tendency.
It isn't just the dollars wasted... it is what you get in return. A slow moving, low volume, street killing, expensive to build and operate and ugly to look at project.... when new money could get us something so much more cost effective. Compute the cost per passenger mile and level of service and you cannot justify the Skyway vs. almost any alternative.
I've said it on here before... doing a rebrand of the Skyway with automated light metro (similar to the systems Marcus listed in another post) would be incredible. It would completely change the city.
I don't know why we continue to pursue projects that have no real benefit... JTA needs to be stopped immediately.
Can this solution be explained as to why it doesn't work? From the neighborhoods I mentioned, the system would be like 5 miles from extreme ends of one another. To me, that doesn't seem like it requires a heavy transit solution. As far as the practicality of it, Im saying Id rather do this and upzone/TOD's than do JTA uber.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 19, 2023, 10:08:04 AM
The technical issue from the beginning with that has always been that you can't have a grade crossing of an automated guideway technology with something that isn't. For traditional steel rail-based systems that's a technical issue, but for the current Skyway technology that's a physical issue, because the beam physically cannot be crossed at grade level. As Lake has said before, the San Marco extension is probably feasible if one can get the beam under I-95 and then over or next to the FEC where it can then travel at grade to a station, but anything else would run into problems.
Given what we've seen and learned the last 7 years and the funding we know is available or could be made available it seems there are two broad courses of action that could be taken at this point if we choose to abort the U2C program in its current form:
- Modernize the existing Skyway with a standard technology and reexamine the preferred expansion alternatives. The ideal option would be figuring out as fast as possible how to convert the system to Miami's standards to enable a larger joint order for vehicles and systems. Once that's underway, decide independently whether to expand it as an elevated system for big things like the stadium district or perhaps as more of a Lymmo-style shuttle for things like the hospitals. Places in Asia have managed to run these as effectively full metro systems before so maybe the goal should move in that direction long-term. This fits the original mandate of "Keep, Modernize, Expand."
- Commit to running the Skyway until it physically cannot go on for operational or safety reasons, but in the meantime develop the plans to tear it down, payback any remaining federal obligations if required (but lobby via our legislative delegation for that to be reconsidered in light of the DPM program overall), and plan a new mass transit system without the burden of the Skyway legacy (but perhaps reuses its alignment if ideal).
There's a third option that most people ignore because of continued attempts to make the Skyway and its infrastructure something it was never intended to be. The system is a downtown circulator. It doesn't serve the same role as everything else (LRT, streetcar, heavy rail, etc.) people compare it with, and it was never intended to do it. Unfortunately, what JTA wants to do is costing taxpayers just as much as those other systems, without the benefits that come with them.
The third option is to upgrade and maintain the Skyway as is
(the first option you mentioned) and focus on a different system altogether that plays the role that system is supposed to play. That system can link with the Skyway at the JRTC and those who want to get to DT stops will have to transfer to the Skyway, in the same way that its Miami Metromover sibling plays with Metrorail.
With this scenario, we don't owe the FTA a dime and we can spend our local money on getting a more extensive, complimentary transit project off the ground. Some don't like the idea of transferring between different modes but that's a reality with every major city's public transit network.
^ To me, your third option is functionally the same as my first option. If you're already committed to a standard modernization and then an independent (but inclusive) consideration of the proper mode for things like a stadium connection vs linking the hospitals and it emerges that a separate system for those things proves to be the best alternative that's perfectly reasonable within the realm of possibilities.
What inclines me to look at Option 2 is the suggestion that we've just never been particularly interested since the initial plans in the actual concept of a downtown APM, given the constant complaints of "why doesn't it go to X," and that its continued existence serves as such a frustration to other transit efforts which might lead one to conclude that ultimately we should let it go in order to enable those efforts. Plus just the additional political and operational challenges of trying to build and operate both a downtown people mover (even if expanded) and a larger regional transit system.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on September 19, 2023, 02:49:22 PM
Can this solution be explained as to why it doesn't work? From the neighborhoods I mentioned, the system would be like 5 miles from extreme ends of one another. To me, that doesn't seem like it requires a heavy transit solution. As far as the practicality of it, Im saying Id rather do this and upzone/TOD's than do JTA uber.
Well, is that the maximum extent of a proposed system? People have asked for decades now why they can't take the Skyway to the beach or the airport or New Town, are you proposing
now to have a separate system for that? You can, but you just need to really be clear about that, which is in essence what my Option 1 is about. Decide what exactly you want from the Skyway if you're going to modernize it.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 19, 2023, 05:04:10 PM
^ To me, your third option is functionally the same as my first option. If you're already committed to a standard modernization and then an independent (but inclusive) consideration of the proper mode for things like a stadium connection vs linking the hospitals and it emerges that a separate system for those things proves to be the best alternative that's perfectly reasonable within the realm of possibilities.
The major difference is the shift from the Skyway to a complete focus on a real public mass transit solution. It's accepting that this isn't a one-size-fits-all situation and not tying the Skyway's future into an area of public transit where it doesn't belong. I believe they are two separate conversations that need to be addressed locally.
QuoteQuoteWhat inclines me to look at Option 2 is the suggestion that we've just never been particularly interested since the initial plans in the actual concept of a downtown APM, given the constant complaints of "why doesn't it go to X," and that its continued existence serves as such a frustration to other transit efforts which might lead one to conclude that ultimately we should let it go in order to enable those efforts. Plus just the additional political and operational challenges of trying to build and operate both a downtown people mover (even if expanded) and a larger regional transit system.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on September 19, 2023, 02:49:22 PM
Can this solution be explained as to why it doesn't work? From the neighborhoods I mentioned, the system would be like 5 miles from extreme ends of one another. To me, that doesn't seem like it requires a heavy transit solution. As far as the practicality of it, Im saying Id rather do this and upzone/TOD's than do JTA uber.
Well, is that the maximum extent of a proposed system? People have asked for decades now why they can't take the Skyway to the beach or the airport or New Town, are you proposing now to have a separate system for that? You can, but you just need to really be clear about that, which is in essence what my Option 1 is about. Decide what exactly you want from the Skyway if you're going to modernize it.
What inclines me to not go down the path of Option 2 is because the Skyway should not be linked into figuring out if LRT, streetcar, BRT, commuter rail, etc. is feasible along any corridor in town or the greater metropolitan area. We should maintain what we already have, as its an amenity paid for with federal dollars. Paying anyone back anything should be a nonstarter. Instead, we need to focus on what we haven't done, which in turn, will simply help all of our existing transit offerings (BRT and regular bus routes too) by feeding riders into them.
I should have clarified it earlier regarding the Skyway, but it ain't going to the beach and neither is anything else set up to run on its infrastructure.
On these forums, we all know it, but most of the town is clueless to this issue. I think JTA had done a horrible job of explaining how different forms of transit work, how the Skyway plays into that and what the Skyway infrastructure can and can't do. People are so confused in this town and it only leads to JTA bleeding the public dry by pushing a very impractical and expensive product, all looped into this fallacy that we have to pay the FTA back if we don't go with the U2C. Only in Jax will we propose taking down the house because the manufacturer of our 30 year old broken refrigerators manufacturer is out of business. I believe its time to replace the refrigerator (something very standard) and move onto building the garage we need. Instead, it seems we're trying to make the new refrigerator be a new house, store food, do laundry and park cars.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2023, 05:42:09 PM
What inclines me to not go down the path of Option 2 is because the Skyway should not be linked into figuring out if LRT, streetcar, BRT, commuter rail, etc. is feasible along any corridor in town or the greater metropolitan area. We should maintain what we already have, as its an amenity paid for with federal dollars. Paying anyone back anything should be a nonstarter. Instead, we need to focus on what we haven't done, which in turn, will simply help all of our existing transit offerings (BRT and regular bus routes too) by feeding riders into them.
The Skyway isn't something we can just put in a vacuum though, is it? Any conversation about broader regional transit that might go to or near downtown is going to start with asking about how the Skyway fits into it, because a transit system is supposed to work together, not be silos that happen to intersect sometimes. And that in part seems to have kept us going in circles for some time. If ultimately we like Option 1 better and feel it's possible to conclude that effort with a clear and demonstrated intent to focus on a new regional system that's fine, but it doesn't seem out of the question to consider the perception issue.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2023, 09:28:15 PM
I should have clarified it earlier regarding the Skyway, but it ain't going to the beach and neither is anything else set up to run on its infrastructure.
On these forums, we all know it, but most of the town is clueless to this issue. I think JTA had done a horrible job of explaining how different forms of transit work, how the Skyway plays into that and what the Skyway infrastructure can and can't do. People are so confused in this town and it only leads to JTA bleeding the public dry by pushing a very impractical and expensive product, all looped into this fallacy that we have to pay the FTA back if we don't go with the U2C. Only in Jax will we propose taking down the house because the manufacturer of our 30 year old broken refrigerators manufacturer is out of business. I believe its time to replace the refrigerator (something very standard) and move onto building the garage we need. Instead, it seems we're trying to make the new refrigerator be a new house, store food, do laundry and park cars.
Right, it makes zero sense for people to have to sit on a 35mph monorail along roads with 45+mph speed limits (and probably faster drivers) trundling towards the edges of town. That's a waste of everyone's time and money. But it is worth reevaluating whether it still makes sense for a place like Jacksonville to invest (or really
reinvest) in a downtown circulator at all, as opposed to plenty of other cities that have instead chosen systems designed to go
through downtown and to neighborhoods further beyond it. In 2015 it might have made enough sense to say that we should Keep, Modernize, & Expand, but is that still true 8 years later? Would it still be true by the time we actually got around to putting new trains up there? If we go on to try and build a light rail or light metro or whatever else, how many times are we going to keep coming up against the question of how it's supposed to work with the concept of a downtown circulator as already laid out?
To use your household example, I would look at it like this: We don't have a freezer, but our rent-to-own mini fridge is breaking down. The mini fridge manufacturer is out of business, but the store's rent-to-own policy means you have to pay them the remaining value of the fridge (maybe). Our spouse wants to
insist that we try this new "floating quantum cool-pod" that their coworker keeps talking about. But the options I've presented are that we either get a new mini-fridge and try to then buy a standalone freezer to stack on top of it, or we throw out the thing, deal with the policy and try to buy a normal refrigerator.
Yeah, I just don't know if investing more in a downtown circulator makes sense all things considered. You'd need various extensions in multiple directions before it starts to become useful and how much would that cost vs a larger system that reaches more people?
It would be nice to have both, similar to what's in Miami (Metromover, Metrorail, PLUS Tri-Rail) but it all comes down to getting the best bang for your buck imo.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 19, 2023, 10:47:43 PM
The Skyway isn't something we can just put in a vacuum though, is it?
In the grand scheme of things, what makes it any different than BRT, local bus, intercity rail, etc., in terms of them needing to be coordinated into a regional system. Without a doubt, all modes should converge at the JRTC, which places them in downtown. From the JRTC, the Skyway will play its role as being a downtown circulator, like its siblings in Miami and Detroit or the Lymmo in Orlando. Like Metrorail, Tri-Rail, Brightline, Amtrak, etc. in South Florida and Sunrail, Lynx, Amtrak, Brightline, MCO airport peoplemover, etc. in Orlando, other forms of transit will need to invested in at some point in time to better serve the neighborhoods and suburbs in NE Florida best suited for them. I believe, we're making the mistake of trying to make the U2C/Skyway or whatever also be LRT, streetcar, BRT and other types of systems it was never intended to be.
QuoteAny conversation about broader regional transit that might go to or near downtown is going to start with asking about how the Skyway fits into it, because a transit system is supposed to work together, not be silos that happen to intersect sometimes.
This is where JTA has failed the community. This conversation doesn't need to start with the Skyway. It should start with a broader understanding of how different types of public transit systems are best suited to serve certain type of densities, infrastructure, etc. and how this plays into our region's landscape and existing infrastructure network. Parameters on what things can and can't do, need to set early on to keep things from becoming a circus. When it comes to the Skyway modernization effort, it started out okay but the hell or highwater push with AVs and the U2C have turned everything into a carnival.
QuoteAnd that in part seems to have kept us going in circles for some time. If ultimately we like Option 1 better and feel it's possible to conclude that effort with a clear and demonstrated intent to focus on a new regional system that's fine, but it doesn't seem out of the question to consider the perception issue.
We can't blow $500 million on perception. Facts need to be introduced for good guidance and sound decision making with public dollars. Right now, the opposite is happening. Some city officials are literally under the impression that this mess is going to reach neighborhoods as far out as Argyle in five years. Completely insane stuff.
QuoteRight, it makes zero sense for people to have to sit on a 35mph monorail along roads with 45+mph speed limits (and probably faster drivers) trundling towards the edges of town. That's a waste of everyone's time and money. But it is worth reevaluating whether it still makes sense for a place like Jacksonville to invest (or really reinvest) in a downtown circulator at all, as opposed to plenty of other cities that have instead chosen systems designed to go through downtown and to neighborhoods further beyond it.
This mixes and forces the Skyway into something it isn't. We should be exploring a ton of transit options and modes, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we have to force the Skyway to play a role it was never intended to be designed for.
There are only three cities (four if we count Morgantown, WV) that have urban people movers. We're the only one that can't figure out how to maintain, operate it and coordinate it with supportive land use policies and downtown development patterns. Yet, the others have already given us the path of how to proceed. We're just continuing to ignore it.
Detroit is a decent example. They didn't tear down the people mover or extend it to New Center to connect with Amtrak. Instead they used a complimentary modern streetcar line to serve that role. Miami didn't destroy the metromover. Instead, they've invested in several other technologies that play their particular role in the region and all of them converge with metromover at Government Center station in downtown. They also got pretty aggressive with form-based code and TOD 20 years ago. As a result, Metromover has become a well used part of their overall transit center.
I'm of the belief that we need to first reevaluate our own inconsistent decision making before having discussions of tearing down infrastructure assets and paying money back because we can't get our own act together.
QuoteIn 2015 it might have made enough sense to say that we should Keep, Modernize, & Expand, but is that still true 8 years later? Would it still be true by the time we actually got around to putting new trains up there? If we go on to try and build a light rail or light metro or whatever else, how many times are we going to keep coming up against the question of how it's supposed to work with the concept of a downtown circulator as already laid out?
Detroit and Miami both give us the path to proceed and follow. Have we ever asked ourselves why they haven't blown up their systems for LRT, streetcar, heavy rail, AVs, etc.?
[/quote]
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 19, 2023, 10:47:43 PM
To use your household example, I would look at it like this: We don't have a freezer, but our rent-to-own mini fridge is breaking down. The mini fridge manufacturer is out of business, but the store's rent-to-own policy means you have to pay them the remaining value of the fridge (maybe). Our spouse wants to insist that we try this new "floating quantum cool-pod" that their coworker keeps talking about. But the options I've presented are that we either get a new mini-fridge and try to then buy a standalone freezer to stack on top of it, or we throw out the thing, deal with the policy and try to buy a normal refrigerator.
All of these point to replacing old rolling stock (the mini fridge) with new rolling stock (a normal refrigerator). They aren't proposals to replace the kitchen with a cold storage warehouse.
Quote from: iMarvin on September 19, 2023, 11:29:04 PM
Yeah, I just don't know if investing more in a downtown circulator makes sense all things considered. You'd need various extensions in multiple directions before it starts to become useful and how much would that cost vs a larger system that reaches more people?
Do we really need major extensions though? I can easily argue there's no real need to expand it other than a less than 1/2 mile stretch to San Marco and sticking a station at the Brooklyn maintenance yard. Outside of that, there are other logical solutions to reach other areas. If you want to get from downtown to the beach, that's likely BRT or spending more than $1 billion on LRT, which would be ridiculous given the low density on the Southside.
If you're wanting to get to Clay, buying the CSX A line and throwing a DMU on it would at least give you a hybrid commuter rail/LRT-like service linking the Rail Yard District/North Riverside, Riverside, Murray Hill, Ortega, NAS Jax, Orange Park, etc. It may cost you $500-$700 million or so, but at least we'd connect downtown with an adjacent county and spur TOD all along the route. However, it still wouldn't be logical to extend it on downtown streets. With St. Augustine and St. Johns County, given the river crossing, some form of commuter rail/DMU/intercity rail on the FEC still makes more sense than AVs, streetcar or LRT.
As we go through this exercise, it becomes pretty clear that there is no one mode that is best suited to serve every part of the city and region. But that's okay, as there is no one-size fits all solution anywhere in this country.
The best thing for us to do would be to look at things on a much larger, regional level and being open minded that we may be looking at different modes to serve different areas, than primarily focusing first on downtown and the Skyway. We've wasted more than 20 years talking about this, so its logical now to maintain what we already have because nothing else is coming down the pipeline soon, outside of some opportunities to leverage intercity rail better than what we do today. But at this rate, we're more likely to end up with nothing once the U2C blows up for good.
QuoteIt would be nice to have both, similar to what's in Miami (Metromover, Metrorail, PLUS Tri-Rail) but it all comes down to getting the best bang for your buck imo.
Definitely agree. To figure that out, we've got to zoom out way past the Skyway and downtown.
Still wild to think that Jacksonville once had 40+ miles of streetcar serving 14 million passengers annually.
Bumping this article, because it's an all-timer:
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-ruins-of-jacksonville-the-streetcar-system
Old alignments:
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Riverside/i-cwsRwtm/0/L/870229069_PPoFr-L-L.jpg)
^It's a damn shame, but it did happen to most cities. For those who want to make the Skyway something it has never been, the conversion of it into some form of light weight streetcar or tram is about as good of an alternative option that we'll get. Like the U2C, it would also need to run in dedicated lanes or ROW at street level to be most efficient and reliable. However, even it won't be a solution to get to Town Center, Roosevelt Square, Gateway, the airport, etc.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2023, 12:08:01 AM
^It's a damn shame, but it did happen to most cities. For those who want to make the Skyway something it has never been, the conversion of it into some form of light weight streetcar or tram is about as good of an alternative option that we'll get. Like the U2C, it would also need to run in dedicated lanes or ROW at street level to be most efficient and reliable. However, even it won't be a solution to get to Town Center, Roosevelt Square, Gateway, the airport, etc.
Others might disagree, but I personally think that an easily accessible at-grade urban streetcar line would be the smartest transportation investment possible, and something that truly could be a bit of a silver bullet for downtown Jacksonville.
Assuming that the new stadium deal is approved with mixed use, and assuming the Four Seasons now under construction is completed, and assuming that MOSH 2.0 moves forward with their plans on the Northbank, and assuming that the Shipyards East park under design is competed, and assuming that something happens at Ford on Bay, and assuming that Riverfront Plaza comes to fruition, and assuming that the multi block Pearl project is completed and some of the NoCo projects are built, and assuming that the new McCoys Creek Park/Whole Foods/Mixed Use development is completed, and assuming the RAM Expansion/Skate Park gets built, and assuming the Related/Restaurant project is completed, and assuming that someone at City Hall notices that Friendship Park has been closed since the failed assassination attempt on President Reagan, and assuming RiversEdge continues through to completion, and assuming UF builds a campus, you've got a lot of potential development connected by nothing but surface lots and grass fields.
Having a cohesive streetcar system providing a link from the CBD to the stadium, or from Whole Foods to the Southbank apartments, or from Noco to Shipyards East, or from Springfield/Brooklyn to Riverfront Park, or from Four Seasons to Five Points, would really start to create some synergy and encourage infill development/TOD in ways that the existing Skyway or Clown Car Alley never will for logistical or perception-based reasons.
People love streetcar. I genuinely believe they'd use it and it would spur additional development if the plan was right.
For better or worse, it feels like the bloom has been off the rose for the existing Skyway for decades, and the average Jaxon (and average downtown worker) views it as a sad, dirty, failed meme and just isn't ever going to use it, no matter what changes are made to it.
^Then a conversion of the Skyway into a light weight streetcar or tram would be worth considering instead of the U2C or else it's never getting across the river and over any freight railroad tracks at grade, for anything close to a respectable cost. If that were on the table instead of the U2C, without a doubt, I do believe more of the city would be in support. Something proven that costs the same (or less) than the U2C, but moves more people and stimulates TOD. However, the reality is, even then, we've only addressed downtown and have still ignored the lion's share of the city and urban core, meaning it would also suffer from low ridership for the foreseeablefuture, just like most of the newer streetcar lines in the country.
Metromover and Metrorail were both viewed in a similar negative fashion in Miami. Metrorail used to be called Metrofail. Getting aggressive with TOD around their existing transit stations since 2000 have been game changers for both of those systems. They'll never have a city wide at grade streetcar or LRT, but that's okay. They've learned to utilize their existing assets.
Same goes for Charlotte, San Diego and St. Louis. Those are cities that implemented starter LRT lines along old freight rail corridors. What we see in those systems now, is the result of what took place 15 to 30 years since their initial implementation. So if we took their approach, we'd be looking at a starter LRT segment along the S-Line (ripping out and rebuilding multiuse trail) or a DMU-type line along the CSX A or FEC. Something totally different from the Skyway and low ridership small complimentary streetcar lines (excluding San Diego, which runs heritage trolleys on their LRT lines and LRT/DMUs on active freight lines) these cities have also built.
Jax's physical layout presents us with some challenges that many cities we compare ourselves with (Charlotte, OKC, Houston, etc.) don't have. Crossing the river and getting up over the FEC are two of them. Not being able to get dedicated ROW on FDOT maintained streets are another. On the other hand, we do have some infrastructure assets that most also don't have. Our rail network and Skyway structure are two of them.
I do believe JTA got off on the right track, when looking into the Skyway modernization effort years ago. The support was there at the time. They've just settled on the one silly thing (the U2C) that will possibly ruin all future transit investment locally for decades to come.
Thanks for the insight everyone. I tend to agree with Lake on the idea that the existing Skyway system really doesn't need a crazy expansion to it to make it exponentially more functional as a downtown people mover.. of course this requires upzoning but I believe that the upzoning could be justified with a DT transit option moving forward. The only other extension I would add Lake is maybe to the stadium area. I feel like that could function better than the current bus shuttle method they have now. People would pay higher fares for Jags games, concerts, and Jumbo Shirmp/Ice Men games. Logistics wise this might be impossible though.
To clarify though Marcus, I think the skyway needs to be brought to Brooklyn, and San Marco proper to make it much more practical. I live right by a station, and it really doesn't offer any advantages as-is and I have tried to use it when it makes sense to. I don't think the existing skyway should ever connect to a greater system outside of downtown. I have always thought to myself that we need an expanded skyway to tie into regional transit stations. (Beach Line & St. Augustine Line for example). It seems impossible (for many reasons) to have all the regional rail lines feed into Osborne in the medium-term as much as I want to see it happen.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on September 20, 2023, 09:20:12 AM
Thanks for the insight everyone. I tend to agree with Lake on the idea that the existing Skyway system really doesn't need a crazy expansion to it to make it exponentially more functional as a downtown people mover.. of course this requires upzoning but I believe that the upzoning could be justified with a DT transit option moving forward. The only other extension I would add Lake is maybe to the stadium area. I feel like that could function better than the current bus shuttle method they have now. People would pay higher fares for Jags games, concerts, and Jumbo Shirmp/Ice Men games. Logistics wise this might be impossible though.
I agree that something needs to go to the stadium. The Skyway could be an option. However, getting to the stadium may not mean going down Bay Street at grade. I think we have to be open to looking into other alignments that also work best for the downtown businesses that can't afford to lose on-street parking.
QuoteTo clarify though Marcus, I think the skyway needs to be brought to Brooklyn, and San Marco proper to make it much more practical. I live right by a station, and it really doesn't offer any advantages as-is and I have tried to use it when it makes sense to. I don't think the existing skyway should ever connect to a greater system outside of downtown. I have always thought to myself that we need an expanded skyway to tie into regional transit stations. (Beach Line & St. Augustine Line for example). It seems impossible (for many reasons) to have all the regional rail lines feed into Osborne in the medium-term as much as I want to see it happen.
San Marco and Brooklyn are the two most logical expansions. Brooklyn is a no brainer that should have been done a decade ago. You really need it to get over the tracks in San Marco. That's the most cost effective grade separated solution we can do to better connect that neighborhood with downtown. We've known this for +20 years now. Nothing in this town (i.e. the location of the river and FEC railroad tracks) is changing that won't require bridges to get around these barriers. So the Skyway is an asset, no matter what people think about its image. Those two segments are so short that they won't cost anywhere close to what JTA is going to attempt taxpayers to pay for the U2C.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2023, 11:40:12 PM
Quote from: iMarvin on September 19, 2023, 11:29:04 PM
Yeah, I just don't know if investing more in a downtown circulator makes sense all things considered. You'd need various extensions in multiple directions before it starts to become useful and how much would that cost vs a larger system that reaches more people?
Do we really need major extensions though? I can easily argue there's no real need to expand it other than a less than 1/2 mile stretch to San Marco and sticking a station at the Brooklyn maintenance yard. Outside of that, there are other logical solutions to reach other areas. If you want to get from downtown to the beach, that's likely BRT or spending more than $1 billion on LRT, which would be ridiculous given the low density on the Southside.
If you're wanting to get to Clay, buying the CSX A line and throwing a DMU on it would at least give you a hybrid commuter rail/LRT-like service linking the Rail Yard District/North Riverside, Riverside, Murray Hill, Ortega, NAS Jax, Orange Park, etc. It may cost you $500-$700 million or so, but at least we'd connect downtown with an adjacent county and spur TOD all along the route. However, it still wouldn't be logical to extend it on downtown streets. With St. Augustine and St. Johns County, given the river crossing, some form of commuter rail/DMU/intercity rail on the FEC still makes more sense than AVs, streetcar or LRT.
As we go through this exercise, it becomes pretty clear that there is no one mode that is best suited to serve every part of the city and region. But that's okay, as there is no one-size fits all solution anywhere in this country.
The best thing for us to do would be to look at things on a much larger, regional level and being open minded that we may be looking at different modes to serve different areas, than primarily focusing first on downtown and the Skyway. We've wasted more than 20 years talking about this, so its logical now to maintain what we already have because nothing else is coming down the pipeline soon, outside of some opportunities to leverage intercity rail better than what we do today. But at this rate, we're more likely to end up with nothing once the U2C blows up for good.
The smaller San Marco and Brooklyn extensions should've happened years ago, I agree. I mainly was talking about getting to the stadium as the major extension. In that case, any plan would hopefully include future plans to connect to Arlington via the Mathews (decades away, I know) and the Skyway is obviously not the best mode for a route like that.
I think when looking at a more regional plan, the easiest corridor to start with is the S-Line. City-owned ROW through a neglected part of town with tons of areas for redevelopment potential. No major outside parties to deal with. Could potentially be the cheapest option as well. Convincing CSX to sell the A-Line or waiting for FEC to allow JTA to use their tracks is going to slow down the process.
Matthews & Hart Bridge make me oof.. do all that work for such a long span and only make it 4 lanes wide.. no forward thinking there.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2023, 11:32:17 PM
This mixes and forces the Skyway into something it isn't. We should be exploring a ton of transit options and modes, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we have to force the Skyway to play a role it was never intended to be designed for.
There are only three cities (four if we count Morgantown, WV) that have urban people movers. We're the only one that can't figure out how to maintain, operate it and coordinate it with supportive land use policies and downtown development patterns. Yet, the others have already given us the path of how to proceed. We're just continuing to ignore it.
Detroit is a decent example. They didn't tear down the people mover or extend it to New Center to connect with Amtrak. Instead they used a complimentary modern streetcar line to serve that role. Miami didn't destroy the metromover. Instead, they've invested in several other technologies that play their particular role in the region and all of them converge with metromover at Government Center station in downtown. They also got pretty aggressive with form-based code and TOD 20 years ago. As a result, Metromover has become a well used part of their overall transit center.
I'm of the belief that we need to first reevaluate our own inconsistent decision making before having discussions of tearing down infrastructure assets and paying money back because we can't get our own act together.
QuoteIn 2015 it might have made enough sense to say that we should Keep, Modernize, & Expand, but is that still true 8 years later? Would it still be true by the time we actually got around to putting new trains up there? If we go on to try and build a light rail or light metro or whatever else, how many times are we going to keep coming up against the question of how it's supposed to work with the concept of a downtown circulator as already laid out?
Detroit and Miami both give us the path to proceed and follow. Have we ever asked ourselves why they haven't blown up their systems for LRT, streetcar, heavy rail, AVs, etc.?
You bring up an interesting point with Detroit, but the important distinction is the physical state of their system compared to the Skyway. If the time comes for Detroit to reevaluate that system's usefulness at its end of life, are they really going to recapitalize it to the tune of tens of millions? Or, assuming by then that their federal obligation has concluded, will they instead consider the prospect of ultimately replacing it with something more suited to the city's needs at that point (perhaps something bidirectional)?
To see perhaps a possible vision of the future, I look east, to Toronto in Canada. Scarborough's Line 3 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_3_Scarborough), opened a few years before the Skyway, used the same technology as Detroit (and Vancouver), and stretched just 4 miles from the Line 2 subway through several suburban neighborhoods. It actually had more than three times the Skyway's ridership just months before its shutdown. Line 3's history parallels the Skyway, in that its choice of APM technology over standard light rail was firmly pushed by higher level mandates and grant money.
But by 2019, as that system was reaching its end of life, the government ultimately decided that instead of spending millions to replace the trains and overhaul its guideway to support expansion as they originally planned, they would instead shut down Line 3 and replace it with an extension of the Line 2 subway through that area, with a bus service filling the gap once it emerged that the APM system would fail before the subway was complete. It just so happened that a derailment back in July was substantial enough and close enough to the planned shutdown that they simply chose not to reopen the line. So now they have that bus bridge, but the under-construction plan is to ultimately replace that service with higher capacity transit that goes much further. So at least in North America, there's another city that seems to have not figured out how to run an urban people mover, and has instead made a larger investment in broader regional transit.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2023, 09:33:38 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on September 20, 2023, 09:20:12 AM
Thanks for the insight everyone. I tend to agree with Lake on the idea that the existing Skyway system really doesn't need a crazy expansion to it to make it exponentially more functional as a downtown people mover.. of course this requires upzoning but I believe that the upzoning could be justified with a DT transit option moving forward. The only other extension I would add Lake is maybe to the stadium area. I feel like that could function better than the current bus shuttle method they have now. People would pay higher fares for Jags games, concerts, and Jumbo Shirmp/Ice Men games. Logistics wise this might be impossible though.
I agree that something needs to go to the stadium. The Skyway could be an option. However, getting to the stadium may not mean going down Bay Street at grade. I think we have to be open to looking into other alignments that also work best for the downtown businesses that can't afford to lose on-street parking.
QuoteTo clarify though Marcus, I think the skyway needs to be brought to Brooklyn, and San Marco proper to make it much more practical. I live right by a station, and it really doesn't offer any advantages as-is and I have tried to use it when it makes sense to. I don't think the existing skyway should ever connect to a greater system outside of downtown. I have always thought to myself that we need an expanded skyway to tie into regional transit stations. (Beach Line & St. Augustine Line for example). It seems impossible (for many reasons) to have all the regional rail lines feed into Osborne in the medium-term as much as I want to see it happen.
San Marco and Brooklyn are the two most logical expansions. Brooklyn is a no brainer that should have been done a decade ago. You really need it to get over the tracks in San Marco. That's the most cost effective grade separated solution we can do to better connect that neighborhood with downtown. We've known this for +20 years now. Nothing in this town (i.e. the location of the river and FEC railroad tracks) is changing that won't require bridges to get around these barriers. So the Skyway is an asset, no matter what people think about its image. Those two segments are so short that they won't cost anywhere close to what JTA is going to attempt taxpayers to pay for the U2C.
If we are ultimately choosing Option 1, then maybe we should be deciding whether it makes enough sense to simply do what was originally considered and construct an elevated Skyway line down Bay Street to the stadium. You'd lose a few parking spaces or maybe one vehicle lane if constructed like Hogan, but you could build at least more capacity than anything at-grade would be. Or maybe figure out how to build a parking lot or garage somewhere close (because we somehow don't have enough of those) as a compromise.
I don't think I've been trying to suggest that the Skyway itself should be what goes to the beach or St. Augustine, although Lake is right that a great many people have been mislead that it could, or have ignored previous insistences that it can't (I know I've seen at least one older article about JTA trying to stress that the Skyway is a circulator and not a transit line). And putting away the effects of the Skyway's limitations on public support for transit development, any fixed transit system to the further east or southwest (not close to the river like the CSX line is) is not going to be able to rely on an existing rail corridor for a DMU service, and therein lines the challenge, especially when we already know from the First Coast Flyer that BRT is too slow and perhaps unassuming for the size of this city.
Quote from: iMarvin on September 20, 2023, 10:37:18 AM
The smaller San Marco and Brooklyn extensions should've happened years ago, I agree. I mainly was talking about getting to the stadium as the major extension. In that case, any plan would hopefully include future plans to connect to Arlington via the Mathews (decades away, I know) and the Skyway is obviously not the best mode for a route like that.
Yes, which is why I think it's bad to focus so much on the Skyway and forcing it to be something it isn't intended to be.
At some point, the Mathews will need to be replaced and that will be an opportunity to get a new river crossing for transit. Something like BRT or LRT will make a lot more sense there, then anything related to the Skyway. This suggests that if we were to look at a regional system, we may need to coordinate that corridor into a potential alignment instead of force feeding the Skyway down Bay.
QuoteI think when looking at a more regional plan, the easiest corridor to start with is the S-Line. City-owned ROW through a neglected part of town with tons of areas for redevelopment potential. No major outside parties to deal with. Could potentially be the cheapest option as well.
Having dedicated ROW for most of that corridor is a definite plus. The neigborhoods are also dense and transit dependent. Major challenges would be ripping up the S-Line trail, systemic local bias about the Northside neigborhoods and the corridor being in an area where the development patterns aren't being served. It could a situation where it becomes a part of a larger starter line.
QuoteConvincing CSX to sell the A-Line or waiting for FEC to allow JTA to use their tracks is going to slow down the process.
There are some different options here. The CSX A, south of Palatka was recently purchased by Amtrak. Maybe it's time to make CSX an offer they can't refuse for the remaining Jax to Palatka segment and still allow them track access rights to ship freight to the mill, coal plant and other industries around Palatka. That may be the easiest way to get some DMU-type service between DT and Clay. Now you're not only hitting places like Riverside and Murray Hill. You're also aligning with growth patterns and providing an alternative to traffic congestion on Blanding and US 17. While a purchase may cost a lot, much of the infrastructure is already in place, so it could easily end up costing less than building something from scratch.
Another route is working with intercity rail expansion where Amtrak or Brightline expansion could also be designing to allow for commuter rail-like services at a fraction of the amount of local money needed for a JTA ran commuter rail service. Brightline/Amtrak are options for the FEC. Amtrak would be the intercity option for the CSX A.
Ah my misunderstanding Marcus. I'm glad we all agree on something more concrete! The U2C bugs me lol.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 20, 2023, 01:38:07 PM
You bring up an interesting point with Detroit, but the important distinction is the physical state of their system compared to the Skyway. If the time comes for Detroit to reevaluate that system's usefulness at its end of life, are they really going to recapitalize it to the tune of tens of millions? Or, assuming by then that their federal obligation has concluded, will they instead consider the prospect of ultimately replacing it with something more suited to the city's needs at that point (perhaps something bidirectional)?
The Skyway's rolling stock may need to be replaced, as any system's would after 30 years in operation, but the system's infrastructure isn't falling down. The river crossing opened in 1998 and the Southbank leg opened in 2000. From that perspective, it's not at the end of its life. We just need to decide on what the new rolling stock will be. I really do believe we'd be fools to knock down its infrastructure. With that said, the infrastructure isn't going to be suitable for some of the other technologies that many want to see. Even so, that's okay, it's still an asset we have to work with.
QuoteTo see perhaps a possible vision of the future, I look east, to Toronto in Canada. Scarborough's Line 3 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_3_Scarborough), opened a few years before the Skyway, used the same technology as Detroit (and Vancouver), and stretched just 4 miles from the Line 2 subway through several suburban neighborhoods. It actually had more than three times the Skyway's ridership just months before its shutdown. Line 3's history parallels the Skyway, in that its choice of APM technology over standard light rail was firmly pushed by higher level mandates and grant money.
But by 2019, as that system was reaching its end of life, the government ultimately decided that instead of spending millions to replace the trains and overhaul its guideway to support expansion as they originally planned, they would instead shut down Line 3 and replace it with an extension of the Line 2 subway through that area, with a bus service filling the gap once it emerged that the APM system would fail before the subway was complete. It just so happened that a derailment back in July was substantial enough and close enough to the planned shutdown that they simply chose not to reopen the line. So now they have that bus bridge, but the under-construction plan is to ultimately replace that service with higher capacity transit that goes much further. So at least in North America, there's another city that seems to have not figured out how to run an urban people mover, and has instead made a larger investment in broader regional transit.
If we already had a subway, LRT or something else, and the system didn't have to cross the St. Johns River, the conversation would possibly be different. If we had higher capacity rolling stock and dedicated lanes/or ROW (basically a more controlled environment for the system), even AVs may not be so bad. The type of technology isn't our major challenge. Everything from JTA leadership over the years to COJ struggling with DT revitalization and transit supportive land uses are. If we don't fix that element, I'm very fearful that every other mode will struggle just the same. It's one of the reasons that I'm not a fan of JTA doing commuter rail at this point. They haven't demonstrated that they can run any type of rail system.
Ennis, great job during your appearance on First Coast Connect today to talk about this subject. As usual, you were very diplomatic and gracious in making your points. I am not sure I wouldn't be a lot more blunt 8). Hope this is a first effort in stepping up presenting the concerns about this project and JTA on the Jaxson to a wider community and the decision makers.
For those who missed his masterful presentation, catch Ennis here: https://news.wjct.org/show/first-coast-connect/2023-09-21/first-coast-connect-autonomous-vehicles-fscj-artist-series
Thanks! I could have been a lot more critical. I tried to use the time to talk logic, regardless of technology. So I stuck with cost, what the Skyway/U2C is and what it isn't, and the challenges that must be overcome with operating AVs in a human environment (i.e. capacity, vehicle speeds and need for dedicated lanes/ROW).
In your opinion what would be an ideal route for a trolley or light rail line? From RAM to the stadium down Riverside Ave and Bay St.? Or a loop down Bay St to the stadium then back along Duval St.? Or is there something else that makes sense? I feel like refurbishing the sky way and having a second loop would be wonderful.
IMO, the routes are the same as we thought they were, back in the early 2000s when we were fighting JTA's original BRT plan, which was a lot more comparable to LRT than the current Skyway/U2C talk. We ended up with the First Coast Flyer and it's clear that this version of BRT-lite was everything we said it would be......which is regular bus service in a major city and not a replacement for LRT or a stimulator of TOD (despite the overselling by JTA back in the day).
To be honest, I don't know if building LRT from scratch makes sense with our low population density. You do LRT to connect DT with the Airport, Orange Park, Town Center, Beaches, etc., not just to hit a few neighborhoods immediately adjacent to downtown.
If we're talking streetcar, then scrap the U2C AV rolling stock and put a light weight streetcar or tram on the Skyway infrastructure for the starter segment and then extend at grade into Springfield (extend north through FSCJ's campus), Brooklyn (Riverside Av/Forest/Park to Five Points) and San Marco (elevate over FEC and drop to grade near Southern Grounds and Atlantic Blvd). The U2C Bay Street corridor thing screws up seamless connectivity to the stadium down Bay, so another alignment make make more sense there. Either way, we'd make this investment for quality of life sake and stimulating TOD to enhance our tax rolls and revitalize urban districts.
If we're talking something with reach to a larger population, the CSX A as a starter DMU line makes most sense. Yeah, you'd have to pay CSX A butt load of money (heck, it may be the same as the U2C the way AV estimates keep increasing), but you'd end up with something that could be operated like LRT and be supplemented intercity rail. That corridor would easily serve urban districts like Riverside, Murray Hill, etc., key employment destinations like NAS Jax and growing bedroom communities like Orange Park, Fleming Island and Palatka.
Intercity rail works better than other options on the FEC to me. The beaches and town center are so far away, that's a long term expansion project one some starter lines are up and running. If something ever does go to the beaches, the JTB corridor makes most sense. Going north, the S-Line is the easiest way to do it.
Great interview, Lake!
JTA hires new "VP of Major Projects to Fail ";D:
QuoteTaking over as vice president for automation and innovation is Kiet Dinh, who will head up everything involving the Ultimate Urban Circulator, while overseeing the Skyway and its maintenance.
He most recently worked as the project delivery manager with the Regional Transportation Commission of Southern Nevada.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2023/09/28/jta-names-three-to-leadership-roles.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=me&utm_content=JA&ana=e_JA_me&j=32858092&senddate=2023-09-28&empos=p2
Interesting. The new PIO should have experience explaining to the public why expensive techy stuff isn't working as promised, and why more money will make it "all better" -
QuoteFilling an empty communications role is Anthony Junco, who will be the authority's new public information officer. He is familiar with Jacksonville already, having served as the public affairs officer for the Navy's Littoral Combat Ship Squadron 2.
Saw this in my FB feed today
https://techxplore.com/news/2023-09-planet-warmer-gondola-maker-urban.html
Quote
Austrian company Doppelmayr is well known for making gondolas for ski resorts, but its workshop is increasingly building cable cars for congested cities as climate change has opened up new markets.
A growing number of urban areas are adopting the cleaner, space-saving mode of transport: Doppelmayr's cable cars now glide over London, Mexico City and La Paz.
Some updates:
JTA re-uploaded their video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng14lp8SyfY) defending the U2C program, adding the following slides. Congratulations to Jax_Developer for making what is looking like an increasingly likely guess as to the vehicle choice, given the legal constraints JTA is under:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/1159312124342972497/Screenshot_2023-10-04_at_10.10.15_PM.png?ex=6530908d&is=651e1b8d&hm=0444d12fa206df0ad46013bfb755e86f3ae255cff4f274415bc8f917c618005f&=&width=1030&height=579)
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/1159312124884025394/Screenshot_2023-10-04_at_10.10.37_PM.png?ex=6530908d&is=651e1b8d&hm=2a74ab585391563bccac644add07e4aba549e015a3b2e1c2a91cfc96d2904e9c&=&width=1030&height=579)
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/1159312125404123206/Screenshot_2023-10-04_at_10.11.12_PM.png?ex=6530908d&is=651e1b8d&hm=535d5aa56c20fcf547c2bbec9deb728da42615694c463875123b71fb8b3fbf1f&=&width=1030&height=579)
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/1159312125790007376/Screenshot_2023-10-04_at_10.11.25_PM.png?ex=6530908d&is=651e1b8d&hm=d4bf7ffaeee4bc913dcd465bc769f6e02e9e0d5069a290db5232e6396638f5d5&=&width=1030&height=579)
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/1159312126310088784/Screenshot_2023-10-04_at_10.11.34_PM.png?ex=6530908d&is=651e1b8d&hm=c60197840eb5fca5f0da32ba5d8c82ab98bec331cf550996c72e8265452d2420&=&width=1030&height=579)
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/1159312126779854868/Screenshot_2023-10-04_at_10.11.45_PM.png?ex=6530908e&is=651e1b8e&hm=27797e5c6eb4648f6794616e07cc1200fd856df7d14013ea208ff17643013ef1&=&width=1030&height=579)
As the slides flash, Bill Milnes can be heard saying the following:
QuoteJTA continues to work with federal officials on a resolution to the autonomous vehicle Buy America issue for its U2C project. The Authority also has a Plan B and Plan C option if a timely agreement cannot be reached to meet the USDOT mandated launch date for the project's revenue service.
Also today, JTA held its second (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqn7DyfhgBA) Autonomous Mobility webinar episode. This time with autonomous accessibility advocate Ron Brooks (who also spoke at the National Autonomous Vehicle Day event), Texas Southern University official Gwendolyn C. Goodwin, and Mayo Clinic executive Neal Morgan. I started watching a bit late so I'm not sure what was said for the whole video, but there's at least a portion of Brooks insisting that detractors need to be more constructive.
And yesterday, JTA received some coverage (https://www.masstransitmag.com/alt-mobility/autonomous-vehicles/article/53072596/jta-fscj-are-looking-to-the-future-with-av-partnership) in Mass Transit Mag on the U2C and the authority's work with FSCJ.
^Those "autonomous" vehicles look like they have driver's seats.
So $500 million for vans? Why are we doing this again? A $60 million experiment down Bay Street is one thing. Blowing another $440 million to put vans on the Skyway is complete foolishness. What's next? Renderings of vans being driven by human drivers on the Skyway? Btw, how do you get those things up there at Bay & Hogan again?
Quote from: Tacachale on October 04, 2023, 11:52:38 PM
^Those "autonomous" vehicles look like they have driver's seats.
Those are for the robot drivers!
Wow!
Nice, one more step in my plan has been released.. yeah this entire thing is hilarious. Incredible someone hasn't made a damaging piece on this nationally yet... I'm sure it will come.
I didn't think Matthew was being sarcastic, but maybe he is with that statement.. IDK. I'm a big fan of the recent advancements of JSU & UNF, but it's extremely fair to say that these universities won't be breaking the AV barrier. Neither will JTA. We should be looking for ways to better utilize existing technology...
P.S. Jax is not a "tech" hub and that narrative is simply misleading. FinTech is widely regarded as not being "Tech" in the industry sense. Makes 0 sense for us to be an AV hub, nationally or globally.. LOL.
From a capacity and speed perspective, vans > clown cars, so this is a...win? ???
Now we just need someone like Bernie Mac to negotiate pricing for us, Ocean's 11 -style.
^Why this shaping up to be a $60 million version of the PCT that used to drive people around downtown? Is the plan to also put vans on the Skyway infrastructure? I'd rather keep the Skyway as a monorail system and find a new operator.
They uploaded the video again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8faFvZ6X9cw). I'm not sure why.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 05, 2023, 01:46:18 PM
^Why this shaping up to be a $60 million version of the PCT that used to drive people around downtown? Is the plan to also put vans on the Skyway infrastructure? I'd rather keep the Skyway as a monorail system and find a new operator.
I
think the idea is that they just use the vans for the Bay Street portion since they're under the gun of the federal deadline, and then by the time the Skyway conversion happens, ZF/ARAIV and Holon would have US factories to order shuttles from. It's unclear to me when/how they'd go about dealing with the vans at that point, possibly either shuffling them to an "Agile Project" in another part of town or Beep sending them elsewhere, since I see Beep branding on the Ford van rendering. Now, why this would mean that Bay Street will cost about twice as much as any First Coast Flyer corridor, I'm not sure.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on October 05, 2023, 02:10:23 PM
I think the idea is that they just use the vans for the Bay Street portion since they're under the gun of the federal deadline, and then by the time the Skyway conversion happens, ZF/ARAIV and Holon would have US factories to order shuttles from.
It even gives me more pause. After all these years of talking and planning, we still don't have our stuff together. We can't even figure out something as basic as the rolling stock we'll be going with. We still don't know how those little pods and now vans, will ramp up to the Skyway infrastructure along Bay Street. We still don't know if it is possible to get dedicated ROW, when everyone knows that it will be a disaster running these things in mixed traffic
(that will be fine if we have people driving vans.....but that defeats the whole purpose of this project). Playing around and changing videos every other week, points to some major PR scrambling. All of this should be major red flags for anyone paying attention, when there's a desire to spend 1/2 billion in tax money on something.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on October 05, 2023, 02:10:23 PM
They uploaded the video again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8faFvZ6X9cw). I'm not sure why.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 05, 2023, 01:46:18 PM
^Why this shaping up to be a $60 million version of the PCT that used to drive people around downtown? Is the plan to also put vans on the Skyway infrastructure? I'd rather keep the Skyway as a monorail system and find a new operator.
I think the idea is that they just use the vans for the Bay Street portion since they're under the gun of the federal deadline, and then by the time the Skyway conversion happens, ZF/ARAIV and Holon would have US factories to order shuttles from. It's unclear to me when/how they'd go about dealing with the vans at that point, possibly either shuffling them to an "Agile Project" in another part of town or Beep sending them elsewhere, since I see Beep branding on the Ford van rendering. Now, why this would mean that Bay Street will cost about twice as much as any First Coast Flyer corridor, I'm not sure.
Just adds further incompetency to the list of JTA's mishaps. Seriously, imagine how stupid you'd have to be to wait on a foreign manufacturer setting up shop in the states, before an already funded public transit project?
There's a reason why these solutions don't exist in the US... it doesn't make sense in our market. They are novelty items for campuses.
It looks like there's finally another transit agency willing to throw money at a similar concept to the U2C.
The Contra Costa Transportation Authority near San Francisco, California has announced (https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/autonomous-shuttle-service-contra-costa-county/3336161/) their plans to establish a 28-mile system (https://x.com/FinnleyRyan/status/1710857231351320818?s=20) of dedicated guideways to operate 4-passenger autonomous shuttles built and operated by Glydways, the same company discussing plans to develop an airport connector in San Jose. A cost estimate for this system was not provided, with a timeline for implementation of "3 to 5 years".
Relevantly, the Executive Director of the CCTA, Tim Haile, appeared on the first episode (https://youtu.be/oatqbWa4XAI?list=PL34GzYWMCnn-YBCJGUkQ-sG8To_3XCh6W) of the Autonomous Mobility webinar (https://go.jtafla.com/autonomousmobility) hosted by JTA a few weeks ago.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on October 08, 2023, 12:54:16 AM
It looks like there's finally another transit agency willing to throw money at a similar concept to the U2C.
The Contra Costa Transportation Authority near San Francisco, California has announced (https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/autonomous-shuttle-service-contra-costa-county/3336161/) their plans to establish a 28-mile system (https://x.com/FinnleyRyan/status/1710857231351320818?s=20) of dedicated guideways to operate 4-passenger autonomous shuttles built and operated by Glydways, the same company discussing plans to develop an airport connector in San Jose. A cost estimate for this system was not provided, with a timeline for implementation of "3 to 5 years".
Relevantly, the Executive Director of the CCTA, Tim Haile, appeared on the first episode (https://youtu.be/oatqbWa4XAI?list=PL34GzYWMCnn-YBCJGUkQ-sG8To_3XCh6W) of the Autonomous Mobility webinar (https://go.jtafla.com/autonomousmobility) hosted by JTA a few weeks ago.
Seems to be a big difference between the CCTA and JTA proposals, in the form of "dedicated guideways" versus mixed traffic or an 'AV Only' lane, well, "AV and Bike Only" lane that will probably have cars using it anyway (see the "Bus Only/Right Turn Only" lanes on Broad and Jefferson).
4 person vehicles over a 28 mile path? Seems like a waste of money. I would love to see what their cost estimate is for this, in comparison with JTA's U2C. Having dedicated ROW is great. If JTA could secure dedicated ROW/guideways and larger vehicles, I would be a lot more supportive.
Yeah the problem here is the cost. How much more expensive is this than the ReadiRide? I'm pretty sure its something like 100x. Effectively the same thing.
https://www.jtafla.com/ride-jta/bus-schedules-and-services/readiride/
Yes, when you start approaching the cost range of streetcar, LRT, BRT, etc., it's time to reconsider.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 08, 2023, 09:52:07 AM
4 person vehicles over a 28 mile path? Seems like a waste of money. I would love to see what their cost estimate is for this, in comparison with JTA's U2C. Having dedicated ROW is great. If JTA could secure dedicated ROW/guideways and larger vehicles, I would be a lot more supportive.
I don't think they've made a cost estimate publicly available yet. The specific cost estimates for the San Jose Airport (https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/transportation/transit/airport-connector) project that Glydways is also involved in aren't clear either. Although some documents (https://sanjose.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=11829325&GUID=6738A9F0-AA2D-4A92-9471-3EB11B18750F) mention a $500 million budget for the overall project, the company claims that:
QuoteThe SJCP team is confident that our proposed APT system can be successfully delivered for substantially less than the $500 Million maximum project cost requirement.
To provide some comparison, the 2.4 mile Heathrow Airport system near London, which uses similarly sized vehicles and seems to be what Glydways is essentially proposing, cost about $50 million in today's money. If you take that number and extrapolate it to the proposed CCTA system's length, that comes out to... about $588 million. I suppose it's possible that they've somehow found a way to substantially decrease the cost of a fully dedicated alignment, but of course we'd have to let them prove it and hope they're not wrong.
More of the company's claims here (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/glydways-announces-56-million-series-b-round-with-new-science-ventures-acs-group-khosla-ventures-and-gates-frontier-301949910.html):
QuoteThe CAPEX requirements for the Glydways system is a fraction of the cost to build rail or bus lanes, and because the system is on-demand, its OPEX is also significantly smaller too.
California's DMV announced (https://www.vice.com/en/article/4a3ba3/california-dmv-suspends-cruises-self-driving-car-license-after-pedestrian-injury) today that they would indefinitely suspend Cruise's license to operate self-driving vehicles. The decision comes after the state learned that the company withheld footage of their vehicle dragging an injured pedestrian twenty feet during an attempt to pull over. In a statement (https://email.dmvonline.ca.gov/t/y-e-xnltyk-dythvudjl-m/), the DMV declared that "the manufacturer's vehicles are not safe for the public's operation."
Cruise has now announced it will suspend (https://x.com/Cruise/status/1717707808932597910?s=20) all driverless operations and return to on-board supervision.
Is JTA's leadership ready to face the consequences of blindly misleading the metro & wasting a ton of money? Probably not.
Nope. They already plan to have human drivers (attendants) for the foreseeable future.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2023, 03:06:04 PM
Nope. They already plan to have human drivers (attendants) for the foreseeable future.
Which (for anyone not connecting the dots) really fundamentally defeats the point of this whole frenzied drive towards autonomous vehicles. Once you need more, smaller vehicles with attendants who have to be able to drive the vehicles anyway, and you need larger smaller vehicles because too many people attend football games, and you need dedicated lanes after all because headways are twice as long without them, then what do you really gain by doing this as opposed to a standard bus or the actually automated system that the existing Skyway is?
Anyone?
Lol Lake.. as expected I'm sure. I'm looking forward to those Ford Vans!
Hopes & Dreams Marcus. I'm surprised the someone federally hasn't stepped in. Aren't they funding this experiment portion? Im not a transit engineer, but the basic idea is hard to argue against.
^The Skyway was mostly federal money. The federal money is a small drop in the bucket for the U2C. Most of this U2C experiment is being funded with local money. One could argue that this is an indictment on the project.
Perhaps I am being too suspicious, but could JTA be envisioning U2C pods scuttling around on the Emerald Trail?
https://jaxtoday.org/2023/10/26/emerald-trail-agreement-pushes-project-forward/
Quote
Emerald Trail agreement pushes project forward
By Will Brown
Published on October 26, 2023 at 6:21 pm
The city of Jacksonville, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority and Groundwork Jacksonville celebrated their collaboration Thursday on the Emerald Trail project in the shadows of the Cummer Museum of Arts & Gardens.
The agreement between Groundwork, JTA and the city states the authority will take the lead in applying for federal dollars to augment the local funding and private donations.
JTA CEO Nathaniel Ford Sr. touted that the organization has won more than $200 million in federal grant funding over the past six years.
"We saw, even going back to the pandemic, the gaps in terms of transportation for certain members of our community," Ford said. "This trail will help with connectivity, mobility, economic vitality (and) health care. So, why wouldn't the JTA be a part of that?"
^Isn't this because City Council took the funding JTA originally wanted for U2C expansion and redirected it to the Emerald Trail? And still required JTA to oversee it?
Lol Marcus, what you just said makes so little sense but at the same time it does.. how is it that JTA has their hands in everything?? Truly unheard of lol. We got JTA implementing ground-breaking technology, overseeing public trails, and spending $5-10M annually on experimental projects.. I'm starting to think JTA is just a publicly funded basket of whatever.
(And we do Buses on the side.)
Quote from: marcuscnelson on October 30, 2023, 11:12:13 AM
^Isn't this because City Council took the funding JTA originally wanted for U2C expansion and redirected it to the Emerald Trail? And still required JTA to oversee it?
Yes. This is the reason for JTA's role.
The city spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on the Chamber's annual "learning from" trips. What city did we learn about the U2C from? None of our peer cities or aspirational cities have wasted time and money on this, so why are we? I think a group from the chamber is in charlotte right now. Hopefully somebody notices the light rail and what it has done for their urban neighborhoods.
Was going to ask, what city were they traveling to this year. Charlotte has heavily invested in LRT and modern streetcar in recent years. Not sure if anyone from JTA is going but I do wonder if anyone on the trip will make a comparison of the U2C to Charlotte's transit system. Other than that, we're largely two different environments at this point. Hard to make apples to apples links after they've been hitting home runs that last 30 years, while we've been selling popcorn in the stands. The best thing to take away from them is the concept of the 3Cs. Everything in Uptown is clustered together pretty well. Same goes for TOD around the transit stops. One thing to not take away from them is how to combat gentrification. They have been pretty bad at it, imo.
I have been to South End a few times, but there was a ten year gap in between. I was there most recently this July and it was completely changed. It was full of mixed use multifamily and office space. Even if Brooklyn completely filled in with mid-rise mixed use, it would be smaller and less dense than south end. Charlotte is more comparable to Austin and Nashville than Jax. Maybe in 10 years we can reach the vibrancy that Charlotte has today.
Unfortunately, we were larger than Austin, Nashville and Charlotte in 1990. Now we aren't in their league. Downtown has potential. They show what can happen here by 2050, if we don't let local politics become a market obstacle.
^I happened to be talking with some friends about Charlotte a few nights ago, and even just looking at Google Maps we were impressed by the degree to which the city has grown up just since the 2000s. Really shows what can happen if leadership pushes the ship in the right direction.
On a relevant note, JTA put out an RFI this morning on behalf of the Florida Public Transportation Association for the autonomous vehicle industry to demonstrate its capabilities to operate Level 4 vehicles in public. To use their words:
QuoteThe goal of this RFI is to inform the FPTA on the capability maturity of the AV industry, and particular vendors, as it relates to a transit service operational model and their compliance with Buy America rolling stock regulations. This information will help the State plan future AV deployments by matching capability maturity with operational design domain (ODD) requirements, including route selection, service model, and operations and maintenance activities.
As of when I checked it before sending this, only Beep had examined the RFI solicitation.
Another interesting quote:
QuoteThe capability of emerging technologies like automated vehicles (AVs) are maturing, with pilot and small-scale deployments occurring across the State of Florida, nationwide, and globally; however, challenges remain based on the maturity of the technology, and a lack of specific physical and potential digital infrastructure. Automated vehicles that operate within a mixed-traffic environment with human roadway users must contend with their unpredictable behavior, which is especially important when interacting with vulnerable road users. Other challenges are posed by temporary changes in the environment like work zones or incidents that modify the availability or configuration of travel lanes, for example.
These are things we say when we're ready to spend half a billion dollars, right?
It is literally a pilot, in that the push here is largely centered around being the first to put AVs into transit revenue service. Once you take the "first" away from the decision making process, nothing else makes sense from a logic and financial perspective, IF the core purpose is serving transit riders. You literally are better off running a bus or PCT down these routes and addressing the Skyway's future separately.
The New York Times reporting (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/technology/cruise-general-motors-self-driving-cars.html?unlocked_article_code=1.7kw.gWvz.u6AL3lb0Qas4&smid=url-share) today on Cruise's challenges in getting self driving to work after $9 billion spent:
QuoteG.M. has spent an average of $588 million a quarter on Cruise over the past year, a 42 percent increase from a year ago. Each Chevrolet Bolt that Cruise operates costs $150,000 to $200,000, according to a person familiar with its operations.
Half of Cruise's 400 cars were in San Francisco when the driverless operations were stopped. Those vehicles were supported by a vast operations staff, with 1.5 workers per vehicle. The workers intervened to assist the company's vehicles every 2.5 to 5 miles, according to two people familiar with is operations. In other words, they frequently had to do something to remotely control a car after receiving a cellular signal that it was having problems.
Big mess but don't worry, JTA has it figured out! GM.....Shmee...em.
Those guys and their billions burned have nothing on what what's being cooked up off Armsdale Road. Stay tuned!
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 03, 2023, 01:46:17 PM
The New York Times reporting (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/technology/cruise-general-motors-self-driving-cars.html?unlocked_article_code=1.7kw.gWvz.u6AL3lb0Qas4&smid=url-share) today on Cruise's challenges in getting self driving to work after $9 billion spent:
QuoteG.M. has spent an average of $588 million a quarter on Cruise over the past year, a 42 percent increase from a year ago. Each Chevrolet Bolt that Cruise operates costs $150,000 to $200,000, according to a person familiar with its operations.
Half of Cruise's 400 cars were in San Francisco when the driverless operations were stopped. Those vehicles were supported by a vast operations staff, with 1.5 workers per vehicle. The workers intervened to assist the company's vehicles every 2.5 to 5 miles, according to two people familiar with is operations. In other words, they frequently had to do something to remotely control a car after receiving a cellular signal that it was having problems.
So on average, every loop driven around the Bay Street corridor route will require a human interaction. That's some bleeding-edge autonomy!
It would be massively ironic, yet bitterly satisfying, if the autonomous, driverless* U2C had to be scaled back or rethought because of staffing shortages.
What is the staff-to-passenger capacity ratio of a bus, even including O&M? Sorry, I'm trying to stop beating dead horses.
*
Feature release date unknown, but definitely going to happen, we swear
To add another log on this fire, here is CNBC's take on AV's in San Francisco not working out. Includes a video:
Quote....But the launch has been plagued by problems. The cars have driven into firefighting scenes, caused construction delays, impeded ambulances and even meandered into active crime scenes.
"There have been 75 plus incidents," said San Francisco fire chief Jeanine Nicholson. "It's like playing Russian roulette. It's impacting public safety and that's what we need to fix."
San Francisco city attorney David Chiu said, "there are still some glitches that need to be worked out."
"And this is with only a few hundred vehicles," Chiu said. "The idea that thousands of vehicles could be hitting our streets in short order is what gives us concern."...
....Cruise had been quickly expanding to other cities, including Phoenix, Austin, Dallas, Houston and Miami, but the company paused driverless operations nationwide following the California suspension. Waymo is still operating robotaxis in San Francisco....
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/04/why-san-franciscos-robotaxi-rollout-has-been-such-a-mess.html
Kyle Vogt, the CEO of Cruise, has resigned (https://x.com/kvogt/status/1726428099217400178?s=20).
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 19, 2023, 09:57:51 PM
Kyle Vogt, the CEO of Cruise, has resigned (https://x.com/kvogt/status/1726428099217400178?s=20).
I posted this on another thread this week but want to add to this one too:JTA COO now departing and, apparently, taking a pay cut to do so. Rats off a sinking ship?
QuoteJTA COO leaving post to become chief at Chattanooga transit authority
The Jacksonville Transportation Authority is losing its chief operating officer, as Charles Frazier has been hired as executive director job of the Chattanooga Area Regional Transportation Authority in Tennessee.
This is the third departure of a JTA leader in recent months. Bernard Schmidt left as vice president of automation and innovation in July, and former Chief Financial Officer Greg Hayes departed his position in September.
Frazier joined JTA in 2021, taking on the responsibility for "the safety, productivity, and accountability of transit operations" related to JTA's transit systems. He came to the Jacksonville agency after four years as the CEO of the Rock Region Metropolitan Transit Authority, which provides public transportation in Pulaski County, Arkansas.
According to Chattanoogan.com, Frazier was unanimously selected for the position, which he'll take over in January. The position pays $235,000, with a relocation budget of $26,000. He'll be eligible for an annual performance-based bonus, along with a car allowance. He presently makes $255,000 annually at JTA.
During his time at JTA, Frazier headed up oversight and strategic planning for the First Coast Flyer network, the St. Johns River Ferry, fixed bus routes, paratransit, regional and alternative mobility services, and the agency's service planning and vehicle maintenance departments.
One of the notable accomplishments during Frazier's time at JTA was assisting with the development of MOVE 2027, with the acronym standing for Mobility Optimization through Vision and Excellence.
"It's a bold, strategic plan, (spread over) five years," Frazier said. "There's seven initiative, 39 strategies and 100 tactics. That working document was a huge accomplishment, just working with the community and the board and our employees."
He also noted several programs and partnerships from the perspective of community impact.
"One of those is called Read USA," Frazier said. "They're a nonprofit, and they hire tutors and seniors in high school to tutor elementary school students, and they utilize the JTA's ReadiRide service to get those students to and from the elementary schools, and then home. That's a project I'm really proud of. It's a pilot program that we're about 10 weeks into."
Among efforts he won't be able to see through to completion is everything going into the Ultimate Urban Circulator, including the Bay Street Innovation Corridor.
"It really has put Jacksonville on an international stage, and so I wish I could be here to see that," Frazier said.
JTA announced in September the hiring of former Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority CFO Raj Srinath to fill the role left by Hayes, while Kiet Dinh, who came to Jacksonville after being the project delivery manager with the Regional Transportation Commission of Southern Nevada, is the new vice president of automation and innovation.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2023/11/17/frazier-jta-coo-leaving.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=me&utm_content=JA&ana=e_JA_me&j=33403147&senddate=2023-11-17&empos=p4
The plug on Cruise is starting to pull.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/cruise-gm-investments-mary-barra-18521623.php
GM's CEO told investors (https://investor.gm.com/static-files/a712bd54-4a00-436b-a2c3-6482b81cc546) this morning that spending on the autonomous vehicle startup would be "substantially lower" in 2024 than 2023. It does appear that billions of dollars in previous investment have not borne the anticipated fruit in safety on the road, requiring the company to "rebuild trust with regulators at the local, state and federal levels, as well as with the first responders and the communities in which Cruise will operate."
This comes after Cruise suspended operations following an incident where the company failed to disclose one of its vehicles dragging a pedestrian.
We recently took the Brightline from Orlando to Ft Lauderdale and man Jax just keeps slipping further and further down the list of "top" cities in the state. It's been said countless times on this site, but the leadership in Jacksonville hasn't been fit for office for decades. It's truly astounding how bad and stagnant things have been up there.
Anyyyways, back on topic... Ft Lauderdale, West Palm, Boca, Miami, etc, etc have teamed up with "Circuit". The easiest way to describe it is a driver-based EV version of what U2C was proposed to be. Immediately after you step out of the train station they have customer service agents there who explain that it's a free-to-use service funded by the city and there are no strings attached. They will take you anywhere within a 5 mile radius. Once you enter one of the vehicles (they're kind of like mini bus golf carts), the driver will explain how it works, where you can go, and give you info about the city, things to do, and events happening. The best part about it is you can use their app to schedule pick-up in advance OR you can just wave one of them down like a NYC cab. The app is stupid simple to use and the only limiting factor we faced was weekday hours (we're night owls).
Someone needs to throw all of JTA's leadership into one of their outdated buses and force them to take notes on the entire trip via bus to Orlando. Hold their hands to get them through the "super-advanced" train station and settle them into their seat on the train with some prune juice and Ritz crackers. Once they get to South Florida and are helped to the exit, Circuit can drive them around the cities to their hearts content. HOPEFULLY they write competent legible notes for the interns who change their diapers and actually make the decisions back home.
It's not that hard. The city doesn't need to swing for the fences. There are working solutions out there that require 0 multimillion dollar "studies", extremely limited changes to infrastructure, are easy for even the technological uninclined to use, gives visitors some usable info, and makes it safe for them to get from point a-b without having to walk through 10 homeless encampments and past 6 blocks of empty and closed store fronts.
If that fails at least it's not $100's of millions flushed down the drain from conception to implementation. In the 8 years that they've accomplished literally nothing, they could have implemented something like that for the same amount that's been wasted on countless studies, travel, meetings, etc and at least they'd have something to say, "see we did something semi useful during our term".
It's not rocket science that if you do something like that and it's successful, THEN, maybe then, you can justify spending a little more on the next thing. Once you get some real-world data on hot routes, expected vs provided radius, peak hour usage, etc you'll have some real-world evidence of where to put that extra money. That is the logical thing to do over lighting millions on fire for an money grubbing firm to give you a new paper weight book full of useless, outdated info that probably recommends you use their partners expensive services.
If anyone responsible for managing anything at JTA has made read this far please, for the love of God, just use some common sense and look at what other cities around Jax are doing. Just stop whatever you're doing and take a few weeks to vacation in other Florida cities. Force yourself to use their public transit. If you like something, note it. If you don't like something, note it. Take those notes and attempt to put some time on the other cities Transit Authority's calendars. Revisit them, even the ones you don't like. Talk to the people who pay for the system, maintain the system and people who actually use the system. I'm sure they all can tell you what they did right, what they would've done different, and what's on the table for the next discussion about improvements.
No city is perfect and shooting for the stars sounds great, but it means nothing if you can't even afford to pull the trigger.
Yours Truly,
Born and Raised, Long Time Jax (former) Resident Who Cares Way Too Much About Their Old Home Town
^ Excellent!
In the meantime....
Quote$50 million proposed to speed up high-speed rail service from Orlando to Tampa
"Advancing structure improvements within the I-4 Corridor will accelerate the passenger rail connection from Tampa to the Orlando International Airport, West Palm Beach, Boca Raton, Fort Lauderdale, Aventura and Miami," the request form said. "Upon completion of this effort, it will provide access to nearly 16 million Florida citizens and 118 million visitors throughout the service area."
QuoteAmong the other big-ticket proposals already submitted:
A $43 million proposal (House Form 2447), filed by Rep. Wyman Duggan, R-Jacksonville, to develop a riverfront plaza project in Jacksonville.
A $40.2 million proposal (House Form 1862), filed by Duggan, for a construction project at the University of North Florida.
A $40 million proposal, filed by Rep. Chase Tramont, R-Port Orange, for a project on West International Speedway Boulevard in Volusia County.
A pair of $36 million proposals (Senate Form 1116 and House Form 1998), filed by Sen. Jason Brodeur, R-Sanford, and Rep. David Smith, R-Winter Springs, to build a new workforce training building at Seminole State College of Florida.
A $25.65 million proposal (Senate Form 1112), filed by Sen. Shevrin Jones, D-Miami Gardens, that would help Florida Atlantic University with issues such as increasing enrollment at its medical school.
A $25 million proposal (Senate Form 1186) by Sen. Jay Collins, R-Tampa, to help Tampa General Hospital with the cost of a 160-unit housing development for health-care workers.
A $20 million proposal (Senate Form 1145) by Sen. Jim Boyd, R-Bradenton, for land acquisition and development at SeaPort Manatee.
https://www.theledger.com/story/news/state/2023/11/29/lawmaker-proposes-speeding-up-high-speed-rail-through-polk/71727852007/
Quote
It's not that hard. The city doesn't need to swing for the fences. There are working solutions out there that require 0 multimillion dollar "studies", extremely limited changes to infrastructure, are easy for even the technological uninclined to use, gives visitors some usable info, and makes it safe for them to get from point a-b without having to walk through 10 homeless encampments and past 6 blocks of empty and closed store fronts.
Just build the Brooklyn Skyway station... That could have been finished 3 years ago. Will it transform the entire NEFL area? No. Is it less than a million dollars, easy to do, and a marked improvement over the current system. YES. Just do it.
I've been looking back the last few weeks over the history of the U2C program and it really reinforces what has been said repeatedly: the goal has not been to deliver an effective mass transit system for a
long time, if ever even. It's immensely frustrating how an obsession with chasing the future has spiraled into sucking all the oxygen out of the city's transit development.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 29, 2023, 08:03:37 PM
Anyyyways, back on topic... Ft Lauderdale, West Palm, Boca, Miami, etc, etc have teamed up with "Circuit". The easiest way to describe it is a driver-based EV version of what U2C was proposed to be. Immediately after you step out of the train station they have customer service agents there who explain that it's a free-to-use service funded by the city and there are no strings attached. They will take you anywhere within a 5 mile radius. Once you enter one of the vehicles (they're kind of like mini bus golf carts), the driver will explain how it works, where you can go, and give you info about the city, things to do, and events happening. The best part about it is you can use their app to schedule pick-up in advance OR you can just wave one of them down like a NYC cab. The app is stupid simple to use and the only limiting factor we faced was weekday hours (we're night owls).
This is just Go Tuk'n (https://gotukn.com/jacksonville-transportation/jacksonville-shuttle-service/). We already have this. JTA already sponsors it. It also doesn't run late enough, in part because you need economy of scale to make transit cheap to run and small vehicles that go door to door are
incredibly bad at doing that at scale, which is why JTA and others have chased autonomous vehicles as a cheat code to the geometry problem.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 29, 2023, 08:03:37 PM
Someone needs to throw all of JTA's leadership into one of their outdated buses and force them to take notes on the entire trip via bus to Orlando. Hold their hands to get them through the "super-advanced" train station and settle them into their seat on the train with some prune juice and Ritz crackers. Once they get to South Florida and are helped to the exit, Circuit can drive them around the cities to their hearts content. HOPEFULLY they write competent legible notes for the interns who change their diapers and actually make the decisions back home.
This is an issue very similar to the discussions of Nat Ford's compensation. It would not be considered a big deal for him and other city/city-adjacent officials (like those at the Chamber) to receive substantial compensation for their work and travel if it demonstrated results. But we've seen these officials jet off for other cities, other states, other
continents for decades now and bring little, if any, practical knowledge back to actually implement, which is what gets people upset. Even the rare wins we do see (such as the Emerald Trail) end up being led by people outside those spheres of influence anyway.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 29, 2023, 08:03:37 PM
If anyone responsible for managing anything at JTA has made read this far please, for the love of God, just use some common sense and look at what other cities around Jax are doing. Just stop whatever you're doing and take a few weeks to vacation in other Florida cities. Force yourself to use their public transit. If you like something, note it. If you don't like something, note it. Take those notes and attempt to put some time on the other cities Transit Authority's calendars. Revisit them, even the ones you don't like. Talk to the people who pay for the system, maintain the system and people who actually use the system. I'm sure they all can tell you what they did right, what they would've done different, and what's on the table for the next discussion about improvements.
Anyone reasonable enough to be reading this isn't allowed to be in JTA management. The video segment rebuffing detractors of the U2C and declaring it the future of transportation based on their own experience is proof of that. Unfortunately, we are far past the point where JTA is going to turn to common sense by itself, which is where city leadership
has to step up. The fact that JTA has spent seven years chasing autonomous vehicles as the industry burns to the ground is proof of that.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on November 30, 2023, 10:41:48 AM
Quote
It's not that hard. The city doesn't need to swing for the fences. There are working solutions out there that require 0 multimillion dollar "studies", extremely limited changes to infrastructure, are easy for even the technological uninclined to use, gives visitors some usable info, and makes it safe for them to get from point a-b without having to walk through 10 homeless encampments and past 6 blocks of empty and closed store fronts.
Just build the Brooklyn Skyway station... That could have been finished 3 years ago. Will it transform the entire NEFL area? No. Is it less than a million dollars, easy to do, and a marked improvement over the current system. YES. Just do it.
What appears to have happened at this point is that costs went up during the pandemic and once they got LOGT funding in hand for the Skyway Conversion (which includes AVs to Brooklyn) they decided to not bother expanding the existing system.
"Let's rezone Brooklyn for High Density Mixed-Use Residential and we'll justify it because we are building a skyway station"
- Builds 100du/acre High Density Mixed-Use
- Doesn't build the station
Classic.
In related news, New Zealand-based autonomous vehicle firm Ohmio (https://ohmio.com), which earlier this year made an unsolicited bid to JTA for a lease of its Lift shuttles, has announced (https://www.masstransitmag.com/alt-mobility/autonomous-vehicles/news/53079437/ca-autonomous-electric-shuttle-maker-ohmio-moving-hq-to-riverside) that it will relocate its global headquarters to Riverside, California. This is after the city of Riverside planned to spend just $2.5 million both leasing Lift shuttles and buying the supplies and staff to operate them.
This represents another loss for JTA's promises of the U2C program, in which reports from the authority had claimed that the program would attract firms to locate operations and manufacturing in Jacksonville. Yet JTA is still struggling to convince the FTA to allow them to use foreign-built shuttles or more conventional vans to operate the Bay Street Innovation Corridor, with a federally-imposed deadline now less than two years away.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on November 30, 2023, 01:41:32 PM
"Let's rezone Brooklyn for High Density Mixed-Use Residential and we'll justify it because we are building a skyway station"
- Builds 100du/acre High Density Mixed-Use
- Doesn't build the station
Classic.
I mean there is the Flyer Orange Line on Park Street. But I guess a bus every 30 minutes isn't particularly inspiring from a TOD standpoint.
I've been saying this for years, but I finally put some math to it.
- A basic Tesla 3 costs $38,000. If you purchased 50 of them you'd probably get a discount, but we'll just stick with the base price. Total cost, $1.9M
- For now you can hire 100 drivers to assist with operation of the cars throughout the week. As automation improves, drivers are gone. Total Cost, $4.5M
- Hire 8 managers at a cost of $110k. Generous, but JTA loves those high salaried employees. Total cost, $880k
- Hire 8 back office support staff with salaries averaging $75k. Total cost, $600k
- Hire a team of 4 mechanics with $60k salaries. Teslas don't even really need mechanics, but just in case. Total cost, $240k
- Hire a VP of the automation division and pay them a cush salary of $200k because why not?
- Hire 2 software coders to help with updates to the cars. Pay them each $90k. I don't think they'd be needed, but just in case. Total cost, $180k
- Finally, build a $5M facility for parking cars while not in use, repairs, back office facilities, and driver break rooms, training rooms, etc.
This can all be implemented for $5M in start up costs and annual labor costs of $6.4M. You could move over 1,000 people an hour (this is almost as much as all of JTA moves throughout the day based on the News4Jax piece. Apparently ridership is 20k a day). Add in 10 of the forthcoming tesla delivery vans for hauling people with large packages... add bike racks to all cars... cross train drivers to handle the vans.... $3M for a washing facility... Quadruple the budget and it still makes so much more sense than U2C.
Edit: This could be scaled up to replace JTA entirely, but for now it's just U2C. Factor in tax breaks for an all electric fleet and baby, we've got a stew going.
Interesting, Captain. I think you are underpaying your drivers. Pretty sure they make more than $21/hour.
Action News broadcast their next installment of their look at JTA yesterday
Quote
We talked to industry expert, Dr. Ruth Steiner about that bus service and its annual report to the Florida Transportation Commission, or FTC. She is a professor and director at the Center for Health and The Built Environment at University of Florida and said JTA's own numbers show it's falling short.
Turner asked her, "When you have a system that delivers this kind of service are they (JTA) letting that group of people down?"
Steiner's answer was a resounding, "Absolutely! This is a transit agency that's facing challenges that's potentially in, in sort of, in this, in what is called ... the downward spiral."
INVESTIGATES: How much time is JTA's CEO spending in the office?
The Jacksonville Transportation Authority reports its operational metrics to the FTC every year. CEO Nat Ford was out of town, again, for this presentation, but sent Executive Vice President Cleveland Ferguson in his place. In the meeting, Ferguson admitted, "We are down in some of our on-time performance ... we are down in terms of service reliability and so forth."
For a bus system that gets an operations budget of almost $138 million taxpayer dollars a year, and more than $16 million of that from our local option gas tax, Steiner said the metrics paint a very clear picture of a bus system in the red in almost every way measurable. When asked how she would grade JTA's metrics, she said, "It's probably an E or an F."
Here's why: In the last three years, JTA's bus operating expenses jumped by almost $7 million while doing less work.
...
According to the FTC's draft report:
-the system moves fewer people: -1,785,591 annual passenger trips
-covers fewer miles showing: -13,607,275 annual passenger miles and -228,362 total revenue miles
-operates three fewer vehicles for fewer hours: -6,957 total revenue hours
-and runs less frequently: +17.3 minutes, average headway than it did just three years ago
...
That "decline in performance" doesn't end there. The local option gas tax Jacksonville voters approved in 2021 came with promises of more jobs and new roads and, thankfully, an accountability page.
We checked that page. Of the more than $18 million received so far, only about $1.5 million of that has been spent, creating a whopping eight of the 1,541 jobs it promised and zero of 153 roadways.
While JTA has less than stellar reviews when it comes to services and delivering on gas tax promises, Nat Ford's report card is stellar. JTA's "independent" board gave the CEO a four-out-of-four "exceeds expectations" rating on his annual evaluation. That evaluation is directly tied to his almost $90,000 bonus, which last year he received in full.
Current Board Chair, Debbie Buckland, said, "Mr. Ford's performance for fiscal year ending in 9/30/2022 exceeds expectations. Leading an organization as complex as JTA requires not just exemplary executive leadership skills but focus and attention to many minute details."
Draft FTC Accountability Report: https://www.scribd.com/document/688703971/DRAFT-2022-Transit-Authority-Report#from_embed
Gas Tax Dashboard:
https://www.jobsforjax.net/dashboard/
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/investigates/action-news-jax-investigates-uncovered-major-declines-jtas-service-promises/CKDVZI3J5ZGOPCO6UMGLKP7QGM/
Quote from: Captain Zissou on December 01, 2023, 10:51:46 AM
I've been saying this for years, but I finally put some math to it.
- A basic Tesla 3 costs $38,000. If you purchased 50 of them you'd probably get a discount, but we'll just stick with the base price. Total cost, $1.9M
- For now you can hire 100 drivers to assist with operation of the cars throughout the week. As automation improves, drivers are gone. Total Cost, $4.5M
- Hire 8 managers at a cost of $110k. Generous, but JTA loves those high salaried employees. Total cost, $880k
- Hire 8 back office support staff with salaries averaging $75k. Total cost, $600k
- Hire a team of 4 mechanics with $60k salaries. Teslas don't even really need mechanics, but just in case. Total cost, $240k
- Hire a VP of the automation division and pay them a cush salary of $200k because why not?
- Hire 2 software coders to help with updates to the cars. Pay them each $90k. I don't think they'd be needed, but just in case. Total cost, $180k
- Finally, build a $5M facility for parking cars while not in use, repairs, back office facilities, and driver break rooms, training rooms, etc.
This can all be implemented for $5M in start up costs and annual labor costs of $6.4M. You could move over 1,000 people an hour (this is almost as much as all of JTA moves throughout the day based on the News4Jax piece. Apparently ridership is 20k a day). Add in 10 of the forthcoming tesla delivery vans for hauling people with large packages... add bike racks to all cars... cross train drivers to handle the vans.... $3M for a washing facility... Quadruple the budget and it still makes so much more sense than U2C.
Edit: This could be scaled up to replace JTA entirely, but for now it's just U2C. Factor in tax breaks for an all electric fleet and baby, we've got a stew going.
Literally. The idea of working with some no name EV company and building it's operations locally is so uneconomical it is hilarious. Tesla, a US manufacturer, has the best EV's on the market & not once has there been any consideration of Tesla. That's rich.
Charles, that piece is interesting. I'm looking up this video now.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 01, 2023, 11:48:19 AM
Interesting, Captain. I think you are underpaying your drivers. Pretty sure they make more than $21/hour.
Action News broadcast their next installment of their look at JTA yesterday
Quote
We talked to industry expert, Dr. Ruth Steiner about that bus service and its annual report to the Florida Transportation Commission, or FTC. She is a professor and director at the Center for Health and The Built Environment at University of Florida and said JTA's own numbers show it's falling short.
Turner asked her, "When you have a system that delivers this kind of service are they (JTA) letting that group of people down?"
Steiner's answer was a resounding, "Absolutely! This is a transit agency that's facing challenges that's potentially in, in sort of, in this, in what is called ... the downward spiral."
INVESTIGATES: How much time is JTA's CEO spending in the office?
The Jacksonville Transportation Authority reports its operational metrics to the FTC every year. CEO Nat Ford was out of town, again, for this presentation, but sent Executive Vice President Cleveland Ferguson in his place. In the meeting, Ferguson admitted, "We are down in some of our on-time performance ... we are down in terms of service reliability and so forth."
For a bus system that gets an operations budget of almost $138 million taxpayer dollars a year, and more than $16 million of that from our local option gas tax, Steiner said the metrics paint a very clear picture of a bus system in the red in almost every way measurable. When asked how she would grade JTA's metrics, she said, "It's probably an E or an F."
Here's why: In the last three years, JTA's bus operating expenses jumped by almost $7 million while doing less work.
...
According to the FTC's draft report:
-the system moves fewer people: -1,785,591 annual passenger trips
-covers fewer miles showing: -13,607,275 annual passenger miles and -228,362 total revenue miles
-operates three fewer vehicles for fewer hours: -6,957 total revenue hours
-and runs less frequently: +17.3 minutes, average headway than it did just three years ago
...
That "decline in performance" doesn't end there. The local option gas tax Jacksonville voters approved in 2021 came with promises of more jobs and new roads and, thankfully, an accountability page.
We checked that page. Of the more than $18 million received so far, only about $1.5 million of that has been spent, creating a whopping eight of the 1,541 jobs it promised and zero of 153 roadways.
While JTA has less than stellar reviews when it comes to services and delivering on gas tax promises, Nat Ford's report card is stellar. JTA's "independent" board gave the CEO a four-out-of-four "exceeds expectations" rating on his annual evaluation. That evaluation is directly tied to his almost $90,000 bonus, which last year he received in full.
Current Board Chair, Debbie Buckland, said, "Mr. Ford's performance for fiscal year ending in 9/30/2022 exceeds expectations. Leading an organization as complex as JTA requires not just exemplary executive leadership skills but focus and attention to many minute details."
Draft FTC Accountability Report: https://www.scribd.com/document/688703971/DRAFT-2022-Transit-Authority-Report#from_embed
Gas Tax Dashboard:
https://www.jobsforjax.net/dashboard/
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/investigates/action-news-jax-investigates-uncovered-major-declines-jtas-service-promises/CKDVZI3J5ZGOPCO6UMGLKP7QGM/
This. And they haven't even tacked on the ridiculous U2C project yet. Someone needs to encourage them to keep investigating to the end!
We went through a good decade hearing (being sold) about how the First Coast Flyer would be like LRT but better. Haven't really heard a peep on performance or ridership growth since its completion. This would explain why. History is now repeating itself with the U2C.
JTA's Board Meeting was on Thursday.
Lot of praise for Nat Ford and the future of transportation. Included some slides on their initiatives:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/994396497883963402/1184936389016551514/Screenshot_2023-12-14_at_2.13.38_PM.png)
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/994396497883963402/1184941436060315718/Screenshot_2023-12-14_at_2.33.44_PM.png)
Quote from: thelakelander on December 02, 2023, 05:06:00 PM
We went through a good decade hearing (being sold) about how the First Coast Flyer would be like LRT but better. Haven't really heard a peep on performance or ridership growth since its completion. This would explain why. History is now repeating itself with the U2C.
They continue to mention the prospect of eventually expanding the U2C to the proposed 10-mile length, as well as how "even more advanced transit" will eventually develop along the Flyer corridors. I have a list myself of improvements I've thought of to encourage ridership but I don't think that's what they have in mind. Their (outgoing) COO did talk about a ride he took with Chairwoman Buckland using the new mobile app, which is something I guess. But as I've said before, I question the real institutional commitment to actually running transit as opposed to becoming a tech firm in the image of Nat Ford.
On a very related note: the latest episode of Making Moves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ8zrD4HI-Y&t=97s&pp=ygUGanRhZmxh) also came out on Thursday. It is
also chock-full of praise for Nat Ford and
insistence that autonomous vehicles are ready and the future. It also includes this quote from Greer Johnson-Gillis, given during a talk at the APTA Expo:
QuoteYou see at the JTA, we don't consider ourselves as just a public transportation agency, we are mobility integrators.
Whatever that means.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on December 01, 2023, 10:51:46 AM
I've been saying this for years, but I finally put some math to it.
- A basic Tesla 3 costs $38,000. If you purchased 50 of them you'd probably get a discount, but we'll just stick with the base price. Total cost, $1.9M
- For now you can hire 100 drivers to assist with operation of the cars throughout the week. As automation improves, drivers are gone. Total Cost, $4.5M
- Hire 8 managers at a cost of $110k. Generous, but JTA loves those high salaried employees. Total cost, $880k
- Hire 8 back office support staff with salaries averaging $75k. Total cost, $600k
- Hire a team of 4 mechanics with $60k salaries. Teslas don't even really need mechanics, but just in case. Total cost, $240k
- Hire a VP of the automation division and pay them a cush salary of $200k because why not?
- Hire 2 software coders to help with updates to the cars. Pay them each $90k. I don't think they'd be needed, but just in case. Total cost, $180k
- Finally, build a $5M facility for parking cars while not in use, repairs, back office facilities, and driver break rooms, training rooms, etc.
This can all be implemented for $5M in start up costs and annual labor costs of $6.4M. You could move over 1,000 people an hour (this is almost as much as all of JTA moves throughout the day based on the News4Jax piece. Apparently ridership is 20k a day). Add in 10 of the forthcoming tesla delivery vans for hauling people with large packages... add bike racks to all cars... cross train drivers to handle the vans.... $3M for a washing facility... Quadruple the budget and it still makes so much more sense than U2C.
Edit: This could be scaled up to replace JTA entirely, but for now it's just U2C. Factor in tax breaks for an all electric fleet and baby, we've got a stew going.
This is just ReadiRide, AKA "microtransit." A lot of transit agencies have fallen for this idea of simply making their transit system into Uber (including JTA themselves!), but the fundamental problem has always been one of geometry. Basing your transit system around smaller vehicles that someone has to drive means that costs escalate
rapidly with scale unlike traditional transit which often becomes more efficient. On top of that, because they're just cars, they use up a ton more space. If you're somewhere that population is declining, or where literally no matter what you do people will simply not use transit except as a last resort, this is fine.
But what almost
always happens is that as soon as microtransit is convenient for people, too many people try to use it, and it quickly becomes more expensive than simply running normal transit. As Nat Ford himself mentioned at Thursday's meeting with ReadiRide, this forces operators to make it
harder to use, which means either raising prices or limiting access. In theory, autonomous vehicles are a solution to this by eliminating the driver which helps reduce operating costs, but that still requires the vehicle to take up space on roads, and being bookable means that more likely than not they simply act like cars, with a single occupant wanting to go from point to point. Unless you limit this, you actually can't carry anywhere near 1,000 people per hour, which is exactly what JTA already figured out with the Bay Street Innovation Corridor but doesn't publicly discuss. The Skyway costs a few million more a year to run than your idea and yet can carry far more people if they were to board.
You're not the first person to fall into the trap, but it
is a trap. Just build transit.
I note that neither of the slides below discuss how many riders JTA is, or plans, to transport in a given time frame. What transit evaluation doesn't include those statistics as a benchmark for operational success? JTA Board doesn't seem to have learned any lessons from JEA's Board and the Zahn fiasco.
Train bus/AV wreck on the way.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on December 16, 2023, 10:19:40 PM
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/994396497883963402/1184936389016551514/Screenshot_2023-12-14_at_2.13.38_PM.png)
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/994396497883963402/1184941436060315718/Screenshot_2023-12-14_at_2.33.44_PM.png)
Maybe the measurement is, "Column inches in transit, planning, and AV -oriented publications."
Those numbers don't say much of anything. Has ridership gone up since the implementation of the FCF? How does it compare apples to apples with other BRT and BRT-lite projects in peer communities over the same period of time? Would love to see the metrics compared to the Richmond and St Pete projects. I mean, we know tax money was spent and that that JTA staff, consulting firms, construction jobs and bus manufacturing jobs, etc. we're supported. So the investment numbers on those slides don't carry much weight. Heck, Tri-Legacy created jobs with their failed Shipyards investment 20 years ago. Where's the meat in this presentation?
What I'm looking for is where do we lack and where can we improve in areas that out peers have excelled at? I was around in the smoke selling days of BRT. FCF is no where close to what was promised and shown on slick renderings at the time. The public was promised "like LRT but more flexible and cheaper". What I see looks and smells like a bus. Definitely no real TOD stimulated. Judging from the mostly empty bus stops, I question how ridership has performed?
The most backward agency I've seen. Imagine praising this crap. Really shows how low the bar is.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 17, 2023, 12:11:51 AM
I note that neither of the slides below discuss how many riders JTA is, or plans, to transport in a given time frame. What transit evaluation doesn't include those statistics as a benchmark for operational success? JTA Board doesn't seem to have learned any lessons from JEA's Board and the Zahn fiasco. Train bus/AV wreck on the way.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 17, 2023, 08:57:29 AM
Those numbers don't say much of anything. Has ridership gone up since the implementation of the FCF? How does it compare apples to apples with other BRT and BRT-lite projects in peer communities over the same period of time? Would love to see the metrics compared to the Richmond and St Pete projects. I mean, we know tax money was spent and that that JTA staff, consulting firms, construction jobs and bus manufacturing jobs, etc. we're supported. So the investment numbers on those slides don't carry much weight. Heck, Tri-Legacy created jobs with their failed Shipyards investment 20 years ago. Where's the meat in this presentation?
What I'm looking for is where do we lack and where can we improve in areas that out peers have excelled at? I was around in the smoke selling days of BRT. FCF is no where close to what was promised and shown on slick renderings at the time. The public was promised "like LRT but more flexible and cheaper". What I see looks and smells like a bus. Definitely no real TOD stimulated. Judging from the mostly empty bus stops, I question how ridership has performed?
The COO did discuss ridership improving over last year, but did not list these statistics visually. Action News notes (https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/investigates/action-news-jax-investigates-uncovered-major-declines-jtas-service-promises/CKDVZI3J5ZGOPCO6UMGLKP7QGM/) their overall performance issues, and during the meeting Ford led a discussion of his efforts to change the metrics by which JTA is reviewed by the Florida Transportation Commission. Some quotes of that included "When you're missing the metric by 300% that means the metric is wrong," "...so we need to set realistic goals," and "You can't lump all of us into one set of metrics and have that work." There was a claim that the metrics don't account for the existence of Uber and other rideshare companies, suggesting that perhaps they think that Jacksonville is uniquely impacted by this compared to other Florida cities.
Just in general, I watched a deep-seated rejection of the indication the authority wants to act like a public transit agency, and instead a wish to simply change the scoring so that the numbers are fine as-is and they can continue roleplaying as a tech conglomerate. Frankly I become concerned by the sheer volume of praise everyone from the board to executives insists on heaping upon Nat Ford specifically. It strains credibility. The Making Moves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ8zrD4HI-Y&t=97s&pp=ygUGanRhZmxh) episode is completely ridiculous.
I've said before, but personally I think a glaring issue is that there don't appear to be any real capital plans beyond the U2C. Commuter rail is technically on there but we've seen it largely serve as spinning wheels for more studies, there is a "BRT" map that they have demonstrated no progress on. The ferry is perhaps the one positive point. They understandably mentioned during the meeting that nearly half of their operators have less than two years of experience and are prioritizing safety over schedules, but that should indicate the need to improve infrastructure so that they
can drive safely. Instead there's been this
seething hatred of the 40-foot bus, including during the meeting itself. How can you run a transit agency that hates buses?
Safety vs Schedules - I read that as "schedule adherence" or "on-time performance."
If the schedule consistently cannot be met, that means the service planners need to evaluate the time allotted in the schedule and (in most cases) add time to the schedule. For example, if the schedule allows 30 minutes to get from the downtown terminal to the end-of-the-line, and drivers are consistently 7 minutes late - it's time to change the schedule to allow 37 minutes to make the trip. Of course, this messes with the desire to have "clock-face" schedules - leaves DT on the hour, reaches the suburban end at the half-hour, returns DT on the hour - but it reflects what the drivers can safely perform. Another option, especially if management is married to clock-faces, is to revise the route to match the desired travel time. Of course, this probably means you omit some parts of the route, but if you have data on where boardings occur (and the electronic fareboxes can provide it), you may be able to adjust the route without too much passenger pain. This isn't hard.
On the other hand, if only certain drivers are having trouble meeting the schedule, they may need more training, or "counseling" to understand the importance of keeping a schedule.
Based on your report Marcus, it sounds like JTA's way of scoring things is if they lost a football game, the winning score would be the lowest score, not the highest. But, if they win a game, it is back to the highest score. So, their team is always undefeated.
"Stupid is as stupid does" should be the theme of the JTA leadership, board included.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 17, 2023, 06:42:25 PM
Based on your report Marcus, it sounds like JTA's way of scoring things is if they lost a football game, the winning score would be the lowest score, not the highest. But, if they win a game, it is back to the highest score. So, their team is always undefeated.
I'd say more, they want it to be okay if they lose the football game because they want to play quidditch instead, and since quidditch isn't on par with the NFL "yet" but it's "the future of sports" they're at the head of that pack while everyone watches with bewilderment at what the heck the football team is doing spending so much money on quidditch.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on December 01, 2023, 10:51:46 AM
I've been saying this for years, but I finally put some math to it.
- A basic Tesla 3 costs $38,000. If you purchased 50 of them you'd probably get a discount, but we'll just stick with the base price. Total cost, $1.9M
- For now you can hire 100 drivers to assist with operation of the cars throughout the week. As automation improves, drivers are gone. Total Cost, $4.5M
- Hire 8 managers at a cost of $110k. Generous, but JTA loves those high salaried employees. Total cost, $880k
- Hire 8 back office support staff with salaries averaging $75k. Total cost, $600k
- Hire a team of 4 mechanics with $60k salaries. Teslas don't even really need mechanics, but just in case. Total cost, $240k
- Hire a VP of the automation division and pay them a cush salary of $200k because why not?
- Hire 2 software coders to help with updates to the cars. Pay them each $90k. I don't think they'd be needed, but just in case. Total cost, $180k
- Finally, build a $5M facility for parking cars while not in use, repairs, back office facilities, and driver break rooms, training rooms, etc.
This can all be implemented for $5M in start up costs and annual labor costs of $6.4M. You could move over 1,000 people an hour (this is almost as much as all of JTA moves throughout the day based on the News4Jax piece. Apparently ridership is 20k a day). Add in 10 of the forthcoming tesla delivery vans for hauling people with large packages... add bike racks to all cars... cross train drivers to handle the vans.... $3M for a washing facility... Quadruple the budget and it still makes so much more sense than U2C.
Edit: This could be scaled up to replace JTA entirely, but for now it's just U2C. Factor in tax breaks for an all electric fleet and baby, we've got a stew going.
Had similar thoughts a few months back, but with buses instead of Teslas.
Different concept, but 1,000% same conclusion:
It is categorically INSANE that anyone finds a $500 million+, low-capacity, low-speed, pie-in-the-sky "transit network" to be a cost-efficient way of moving riders.
It's the transit equivalent of the guy at the college party who drops acid and then rambles incoherently about his plan to solve the conflict in the Middle East.
Some real Beautiful Mind bullshit.
QuoteQuote from: Ken_FSU on September 18, 2023, 01:06:37 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on September 16, 2023, 08:17:44 AMSecond, has JTA ever claimed the U2C - either small AVs or driven vans - operate for special events in the Sports Complex? Is there any credibility there?
JTA's claims aside, the very idea seems to stretch credibility.
Using what we know about the system, and what we know about the existing technology, I think it's safe to assume that the Bay Street Corridor will employ:
- Approximately 10 AV clown cars
- With a capacity of approximately 10 clowns/car
- Going a max speed in mixed traffic of 10 mph
We also know that the loop is 3.2 miles long.
Which means that, with stops for loading and unloading, the U2C will probably average around 2 full loops per hour.
By my math, that gives the U2C as planned the ability to transport a scant 200 riders per hour, in a sports district that routinely hosts crowds of 65,000+.
By contrast, four standard JTA buses (65 capacity with standing room) doing the same loop at 30 mph, would probably average around 6 full loops per hour.
So, in the amount of time that it would take a fleet of clown cars to transport 200 people, four basic JTA buses could transport 1,560 passengers.
By my back of the napkin math, that's 680% more passengers moved per hour with four buses than with 10 clown cars.
If JTA were to run a SINGLE bus on the same 3.2 loop on gameday, it would take less than 20 minutes to fully move more passengers than an entire fleet of clown cars.
And that doesn't even account for the fact that the average bus costs around $500k, versus a network of clown cars tapped to cost literally one thousand times more ($500m+).
The very IDEA that this goofy system of microbuses classifies as "mass transportation" worthy of mass-transportation-like investment is utterly harebrained and delusional.
This system as designed couldn't even efficiently move attendees of a mid-sized conference at the Hyatt to the Sports District.
Everyone involved needs to be fired, and possibly institutionalized.
It's no longer about cost efficiency. That was an early selling point until it was proven beyond a doubt to be an inaccurate assumption. Now the sales pitch has shifted to being innovative and the first to achieve something most people could give two craps about, regardless of expense and benefits to transit users. The majority of people know it doesn't make sense. Its just a matter of time when you what, will hit the fan.
For the record, Tesla this past week recalled nearly every Tesla on the road over its glitches with being autonomous. But, JTA has it all figured out. Elon needs to give them a call. Meanwhile, the JTA board "fiddles while Rome burns."
QuoteTesla Recalls 2 Million Vehicles Over Autopilot Issue. Here's What You Need to Know
The most significant recall in company history affects almost every Tesla produced since 2012.
....Over many years, cars have been gaining features that automate certain driver tasks, from cruise control to lane correction and automatic emergency braking. Futurists, including Tesla chief Elon Musk, have long envisioned cars that are fully self-driving. But despite notable proofs of concept -- in early pilot projects and more-recent limited-use cases -- the challenge is a complex one with many hard issues still to be resolved. Tesla's Autopilot feature falls short of being fully autonomous....
....That's nearly all the cars Tesla has sold in the US, according to The Washington Post....
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-recalls-2-million-vehicles-over-autopilot-issue-heres-what-you-need-to-know/
Tesla's suffering from recalls, Cruise has basically been vaporized, it turns out Beep pulled its shuttle from Orlando (https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2023/12/19/orlando-driverless-shuttle-crash-disappears-maxwell/) after the crash in August, and Waymo cars are trying to cut each other off (https://youtu.be/kN0MLclnWa0?si=TsodslfzLXoKMdmn).
The Bay Street Innovation Corridor is supposed to open in eighteen months.
Some more info and pictures of the Orlando incident here. It didn't take long. I wonder why no mention of this locally?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12443601/Moment-Orlandos-self-driving-shuttle-bus-CRASHES-just-two-days-launch.html
The crash video:
https://www.tiktok.com/@samorlando220/video/7270201217303792938
Quote from: thelakelander on December 22, 2023, 06:28:02 AM
Some more info and pictures of the Orlando incident here. It didn't take long. I wonder why no mention of this locally?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12443601/Moment-Orlandos-self-driving-shuttle-bus-CRASHES-just-two-days-launch.html
I think a lot of local media don't know that JTA is working with Beep, so if they're not looking for this stuff they're just not going to be aware of the connection.
I'm just surprised there's not much of a look into AVs outside of what JTA says. The local transit agency has proposed something that we can Google to see what other cities have done. There is nothing being tested locally that hasn't been tried elsewhere. Hoping more instigative reporting is coming in the near future.
There is a strange degree of local deference as to the technical validity of the project. This weird general assumption that if the agency is pushing for it then it must work. I guess because surely the transit agency would not propose transit that doesn't work? Why would they lie?
Nationally I think the issue is just Jacksonville not being a big transit city where one would pay attention to this stuff. Something like 2% of the city rides transit every day, how much is that worth covering compared to the NY MTA or a similarly large agency?
Their track record is pretty bad (aka..the Skyway implementation). All the wolf ticket selling and hot air blowing locally isn't going to make a technology work that isn't working as promised internationally. However, for most, we have larger fish to fry. Eventually, the plug will get pulled on some of the nonsense as there's enough rope to where they will hang themselves with the first phase of the U2C. I think we're seeing the same thing playing out with the Trio right now and the pushback against the current financing proposal.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on December 22, 2023, 12:29:33 AM
The Bay Street Innovation Corridor is supposed to open in eighteen months.
So that means seventeen months until Nat Ford announces that he's leaving JTA for a similar position elsewhere.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on December 22, 2023, 11:27:43 PM
There is a strange degree of local deference as to the technical validity of the project. This weird general assumption that if the agency is pushing for it then it must work. I guess because surely the transit agency would not propose transit that doesn't work? Why would they lie?
Nationally I think the issue is just Jacksonville not being a big transit city where one would pay attention to this stuff. Something like 2% of the city rides transit every day, how much is that worth covering compared to the NY MTA or a similarly large agency?
The downtown agencies and supporters would never criticize something that is "pushing downtown forward". There's a weird echo chamber where everyone presents every project as awesome, regardless of its actual merits. COJ, DIA, DVI, JTA, BUD, Jessie Ball Dupont Fund....etc. Nobody presents a contrasting viewpoint to anything for fear of being seen as anti-progress. Somebody from DIA should have chained themselves to the bulldozers at the Landing and somebody should oppose the "moving the jail will fix everything" rhetoric that's going around now.
^ agreed - there have been /are definitely some proposed projects downtown that would / will not help the overall value proposition of the area.
^ Doesn't help that many our the "boards" are stacked with financial and legal minds, not people living in the real world. Many also come from the major chamber companies which often have executives that are not born and raised in Jax but moved here from somewhere else, often not that many years ago, so they have don't have the same investment in the long term consequences of their actions.
It would be interesting to poll how many "board" and "commission" members were raised in Jax.
I'm sure JTA staff were instrumental in developing this tech, right?
Quote
Engineers have turned an otherwise unnoteworthy stretch of road in downtown Detroit into what's being hailed as the first wireless-charging public road in the United States.
Massive copper coils, much like the scaled-down ones inside your wireless phone charger, are hidden beneath the surface to charge EVs while they're stationary, idling, or even driving.
In a demonstration, a modified Ford E-Transit van that was outfitted with special receivers got as much as 19 kilowatts of power while driving down the road, albeit for only a short time.
But while the technology, developed by Israel-based wireless charging company Electreon, has already been shown to work, we're likely still many years out before it can be implemented at a much larger scale, especially considering the significant inefficiencies and costs involved.
...
Instead of converting stretches of highway, Electreon is focusing on wirelessly charging stationary vehicles at bus stops or city intersections since the prolonged proximity between coil and receiver makes the process more efficient.
https://futurism.com/the-byte/new-street-charges-electric-vehicles-drive
^ I hope this tech only charges the vehicles and not their occupants ;D. Given all the conspiracy theories about various cell and microwave towers, I can't imagine what will come along with these.
In just a few minutes, JTA is launching a pilot shuttle service at FSCJ Downtown, using the Olli shuttle from defunct Local Motors and operated by Beep:
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2024/02/20/jta-debuts-first-autonomous-vehicle-on-fscjs-downtown-campus/
I know many, many people who work and live downtown.
Have quietly been doing my own polling, and I literally can't find a single human being who thinks the U2C is a good idea or thinks they would use it if built.
I mean, literally, not one person.
Who in their right mind dedicates half a billion dollars, in Florida, to a mode of transport that literally cannot operate in the rain. That's 112 days a year here in Jax. Ditto fog. Whole thing just shuts down in inclement weather apparently.
I happened to be looking into some files yesterday and found that JTA's own BUILD grant application (https://www.jtafla.com/media/pukn41o5/bay-street-innovation-corridor-build-grant-application-july-19-2018.pdf) projected that only 2,500 people would ride the Bay Street Innovation Corridor per day.
2,500 riders per day, on a project that connects to a 68,000 seat football stadium, 15,000 seat area, and 11,000 seat ballpark.
^Its basically a pilot project, IMO. Not real transit.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on February 20, 2024, 02:25:28 PM
I happened to be looking into some files yesterday and found that JTA's own BUILD grant application (https://www.jtafla.com/media/pukn41o5/bay-street-innovation-corridor-build-grant-application-july-19-2018.pdf) projected that only 2,500 people would ride the Bay Street Innovation Corridor per day.
2,500 riders per day, on a project that connects to a 68,000 seat football stadium, 15,000 seat area, and 11,000 seat ballpark.
I'd be very surprised if it gets anywhere close to that number. Currently, the skyway is averaging about half that a day. Why would the strip just along Bay St have twice the ridership as the entire skyway? Crazy when you start thinking about cost/passenger.
^They're probably just adding up the max capacity of the number of vehicles that can run during operating hours.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on February 20, 2024, 02:25:28 PM
I happened to be looking into some files yesterday and found that JTA's own BUILD grant application (https://www.jtafla.com/media/pukn41o5/bay-street-innovation-corridor-build-grant-application-july-19-2018.pdf) projected that only 2,500 people would ride the Bay Street Innovation Corridor per day.
Also notes a conversion of the existing superstructure, rather than the rebuild now being discussed.
(https://snipboard.io/Y9eUKg.jpg)
^That's the crazy thing about this project. Go back to the beginning of the Skyway modernization talk. Its a completely different product, conversation and purpose now.
Channel 4 uploaded the full 40 minute event:
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2024/02/20/jta-debuts-first-autonomous-vehicle-on-fscjs-downtown-campus/
Update after watching most of it:
After 8 years of "testing & learning," the $322,000 pilot funded by JTA still cannot operate at night or in the rain, still requires an attendant on each vehicle (who must be capable of driving it), and uses a vehicle that is a technological dead-end because no more can be built.
They intend to break ground on Bay Street within 60 days.
It's really... Theranos-esque.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on February 20, 2024, 06:08:50 PM
Update after watching most of it:
After 8 years of "testing & learning," the $322,000 pilot funded by JTA still cannot operate at night or in the rain, still requires an attendant on each vehicle (who must be capable of driving it), and uses a vehicle that is a technological dead-end because no more can be built.
They intend to break ground on Bay Street within 60 days.
It's really... Theranos-esque.
Haha. Absolutely Theranos-esque. Looking forward to the Hulu series in 8 years. Press conference has some gems (quotes are nearly verbatim):
FSCJ's President: "think about how cool it is to have autonomous vehicles transporting students around our campus. We're also excited because FSCJ is currently the only higher education institution in the country developing a deployed autonomous vehicle on their campus".
Nat Ford: "in this future, what I see is a Jacksonville, where those with mobility needs will be able to regain their independence through the use of these vehicles."
"Not only has FSCJ become the first Florida campus to receive autonomous shuttles, but this AV pilot will help us prepare for the big project, the Bay Street Innovation Corridor and our U2C program. Bay Street is scheduled to launch in 2025."
"Let me say this.
At the JTA we drive very hard. Because its so important to this community, the better we move, the greater our community will become. The JTA is not for the faint of heart. We drive hard, we have bold visions, we work tirelessly, we are courageous, but for the right reasons. And the right reason is to help our people thrive in this community".
JTA Chair Debbie Buckland:"we see a lot of renderings here in Jacksonville. I know I get a little bit tired of seeing them and when we have something that actually comes to fruition, we've had two recently, we had the fountain come to life and now look at this.
Look at we are doing here at FSCJ. It's real. Here it is.""yes it's bold and it's one that is filled with unique challenges, but there is also so much potential as we seek to make Jacksonville a hub for the autonomous vehicle industry.
And that's important for you members of the media to remember, we're going to be famous for this one day and you'll be thanking us.""If you take only one thing away from this, I hope it would be an understanding that this initiative is about so much more than autonomous vehicles. It's about job creation. It's about nurturing a better connected community. And most importantly, it's about creating a tool that enables residents here in Jacksonville we serve to achieve their own success both now and for decades to come."
^ She forgot to include "the troops" in the list of things it's about.
There are a lot of crazy things with JTA's autonomous efforts, and one of them is that FSCJ's campus is .4 miles across from it's widest possible boundaries. For reference, this is about the same distance from Hyatt to TUPAC. It's probably the smallest and most compact "campus" in Florida. Most people are within a few hundred feet of their destination when they park.
Much like the U2C system, it doesn't solve an existing issue. It is merely being used as a pilot to see if the Bay Street project can become viable in the next year. The problem is, during Q/A, the FSCJ President said it can't operate at night due to safety concerns. He also said they had to find a route that avoids the main pedestrian paths on campus due to safety concerns. Oh and btw, they are only deploying 2 clown cars. Basically it's a test track on a short route that nobody will use and will not interface with pedestrians. Cool.
Lol...based off these quotes and last few posts, everything we said was a challenge that JTA would not overcome......five years ago....is still a challenge today. Shame on these people for acting like this gimmick is big news. Feel free to test, but we still need real mass transit solutions and projects in this town.
Need to recruit all people who dressed up like clowns for the Jags games to stand outside JTA in their get ups to protest of the clown cars.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on February 21, 2024, 05:09:32 PM
Need to recruit all people who dressed up like clowns for the Jags games to stand outside JTA in their get ups to protest of the clown cars.
Or see how many clowns fit inside a clown car ...
Maybe 6-8 sitting comfortably in those minivans. Anything more will require sacrificing some personal space. All bets are off if a bike or wheelchair is included.
Quote from: CityLife on February 20, 2024, 06:56:26 PM
JTA Chair Debbie Buckland:
"yes it's bold and it's one that is filled with unique challenges, but there is also so much potential as we seek to make Jacksonville a hub for the autonomous vehicle industry. And that's important for you members of the media to remember, we're going to be famous for this one day and you'll be thanking us."
This is an
insane thing to say. Genuine delusion on Chair Buckland's part. Really gives the whole game away on the idea of this being about personal glory for cheerleaders and not about public transportation.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 20, 2024, 10:15:03 PM
Lol...based off these quotes and last few posts, everything we said was a challenge that JTA would not overcome......five years ago....is still a challenge today. Shame on these people for acting like this gimmick is big news. Feel free to test, but we still need real mass transit solutions and projects in this town.
Yep, the same problems and technical shortfalls that existed in 2017 when the first EasyMile shuttle ran near the Shipyards continue to exist now, despite billions of dollars and years of R&D by the self-driving industry. JTA used to mention their "Golden 20" set of requirements that the shuttles needed to meet in order to satisfy project objectives, but that's clearly fallen by the wayside in the interest of meeting deadlines imposed by the BUILD Grant. Whether it works has become incidental to getting to say "we did it!"
And this desperate drive for glory has come at the cost of not just future transit planning, but the transit system itself (https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/investigates/investigates-whistleblower-passengers-say-jta-buses-regularly-run-late-sometimes-dont-show-up/3OX4SJPW55HGZGZL7AI4BDBTAU/).
What does JTA have on its board members that they simply rubber stamp anything the executives bring to them? Is it a requirement to not make waves to get appointed? Where did that get some former JEA board members? I smell a JEA-type scandal one day in the future if the board doesn't begin doing its own due diligence and living up to its fiduciary responsibilities.
I suspect a lot of the problem is that no one on that board is a person who rides transit, much less depends on it, much less understands the fundamentals of building it well. So for them, JTA is a cool project that justifies a bunch of travel and being wowed by stuff. And so when your charming CEO with such illustrious credentials comes to you and says this is feasible, it's innovative, it's gonna make everyone famous, he takes you to meet a bunch of people who tell you that you're doing a great job and showing leadership and this will be your wonderful legacy on the city, why wouldn't you be on board?
A professor calls this (https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/investigates/investigates-fdot-district-secretary-hasnt-been-jta-board-meeting-over-5-years/2JK5FWNNOBE5NLQIVCNZECQH5I/) a "democratic accountability problem with a series of what economists would call 'principal-agent problems'"
Quote from: marcuscnelson on February 22, 2024, 03:27:38 PM
I suspect a lot of the problem is that no one on that board is a person who rides transit, much less depends on it, much less understands the fundamentals of building it well.
I also think this is the big challenge. I don't believe the board has any ill intent. However, it isn't comprised of actual users of the system or professionals in the field either.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 22, 2024, 04:10:36 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on February 22, 2024, 03:27:38 PM
I suspect a lot of the problem is that no one on that board is a person who rides transit, much less depends on it, much less understands the fundamentals of building it well.
I also think this is the big challenge. I don't believe the board has any ill intent. However, it isn't comprised of actual users of the system or professionals in the field either.
I can't cut the board this much slack. The board has a fiduciary responsibility to perform adequate oversight and due diligence and not rubber stamp staff.
If they aren't up to the task, they shouldn't accept the appointment. But, if they do accept, they are effectively agreeing to bone up on the agency's activities, ask hard questions, do their homework, demand solid and appropriate support for presentations, bring in outside experts to help educate them and/or have third party consultants/experts assist in independent audits and evaluations. JEA's board failed in all these ways and JTA's board is now doing the same.
There are no excuses for not doing the job right. Disqualify yourself if you can't live up to your responsibilities or prepare to be embarrassed and shamed at some point as JEA board members learned the hard way.