Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/JTA-U2C-LaVilla-Maintenance-Center/i-Xc6P3V5/0/ca8d58eb/L/JTA%20Jefferson%20Street%20Rendering-L.jpg)
Another high profile block in LaVilla is being targeted for infill development. At the intersection of Bay and Jefferson Streets, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority would like to construct and operations and maintenance building for the proposed U2C Bay Street Innovation Corridor project. Take a look at the plans recently submitted to the Downtown Development Review Board and let us know what you think!
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/jta-om-facility-proposed-for-lavilla/
So for an O&M building for something literally caledl an innovation corridor you design a tan box. You can't get any more unimaginative than that!
^Pretty much. This one needs some serious work. Don't care what the core use is. It definitely needs some interaction with Jefferson and Bay Streets.
That's going to be one stellar gateway corner, what with a gas station and this beauty.
Wow. A fence around the building? This couldn't be any worse in terms of street interaction. Why is this not incorporated into the regional transit center that's a quarter mile down the street? JTA knows absolutely nothing about creating a vibrant downtown. This whole U2C project is proof of that, but with each new component, they keep showing their lack of understanding.
It also seems a little premature to be tying up land for maintenance facilities when the technology still doesn't exist.
seriously....this is one of the worst projects I've seen in the core. I realize the Acosta Ramps and Skyway make this block weird, but this is effectively a warehouse.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on August 04, 2023, 09:28:59 AM
That's going to be one stellar gateway corner, what with a gas station and this beauty.
This LaVilla stuff is totally insane. This is what the community actually wants for Broad (especially Broad), Jefferson, Bay....
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/History/LaVilla-History/i-M2kx4v3/0/6ced1b86/L/Broad-Street-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/History/LaVilla-History/i-TswXjDT/0/182e2cd6/L/LaVilla%20-%20Library%20of%20Congress-L.jpg)
(https://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3497367791_z5HVZ6T-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/History/Railroad-Row-in-Color/i-xvXtQCm/0/16553502/L/Slide5-L.jpg)
^All of these are old photos of these corridors during LaVilla's heyday. Basically, the community wants just as much density and pedestrian interactivity on these streets as what was there before that was intentionally taken away from them and razed for today's moonscape.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/History/318-Broad-Street---January-2022/i-T3Hsq2F/0/213fe826/L/20220115_121205-L.jpg)
How we're going to get there? We're going to save, preserve, restore the historic building fabric that's left and ensure that all new infill is complimentary from a form-based perspective. In the end, this is what that plan ultimately looks like for downtown and LaVilla:
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Columbus---July-2023/i-jHP2LRG/0/2b908641/L/20230707_143359-L.jpg)
In short, this means the total opposite of what happened to Riverside Avenue in Brooklyn over the last decade. No parking lots and dead walls. If you have a project that's trying to force these things on this community, then be prepared to be up against a fight by community members to kill the project outright. If you are COJ, JTA, DIA, DDRB, etc., the same applies.
Why, we'd take one of the high traffic corners between LaVilla and Brooklyn (when there's a Whole Foods going up within close walking distance...so the market has already arrived) and kill their potential with this type of stuff is something that people really have a hard time understanding.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/JTA-U2C-LaVilla-Maintenance-Center/i-Xc6P3V5/0/ca8d58eb/XL/JTA%20Jefferson%20Street%20Rendering-XL.jpg)
If this is what we're going for, it's not appropriate at the current location. A site on a secondary street, the current Skyway O&M property or in a warehouse district would be more appropriate.
You know if we did really have a genuine need for this at this location (Assuming that all the U2C crap made complete sense and was unquestionably economically feasible), you could do this by putting this building closer to the center, then building out a mixed-use project, with retail facing the streets and such, perhaps even doing housing above it or something like that.
There are ways things like this could be acceptable. This is not one of them.
Without a doubt, this one is going to need some retail component along Jefferson and Bay. The suburban setback will have to go as well.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 04, 2023, 09:38:35 AM
JTA knows absolutely nothing about creating a vibrant downtown. This whole U2C project is proof of that, but with each new component, they keep showing their lack of understanding.
And to think they are basically in charge of the TOD overlay bill that was passed...they determine highest and best use in that bill. They are the gatekeepers for building the city up within the overlay. The "TOD overlay" also mostly references bus ("BRT") routes. LOL
Quote from: Steve on August 04, 2023, 10:34:51 AM
seriously....this is one of the worst projects I've seen in the core. I realize the Acosta Ramps and Skyway make this block weird, but this is effectively a warehouse.
I feel like it wouldn't actually be all that hard to come up with an activation for this area. All we have to do is look at RAM for inspiration on what to do under highway overpasses!
JTA outdoes themselves once again. Bravo.
Simms, JTA put that in their box so they can control the valves of who gets to do TOD's. To be fair, we have virtually no eligible sites given the eventual removal of the skyway. I don't really count BRT, but it's better than nothing. Still, those routes are not in the best residential zones.
Why can't this function be served in the existing Bus O&M Facility on Myrtle Avenue? If JTA is really going to construct satellite maintenance facilities for their buses, there will be plenty of room on Myrtle Avenue.
Maybe because the "automated" vehicles aren't going to go all the way over to Myrtle.
I wonder how much of the $57 million currently budgeted is just this building.
I do see in the staff report that they recommend getting rid of the equipment area facing Jefferson, so that might improve things somewhat.
My guess on why this is specifically here instead of at the JRTC or Myrtle or Skyway O&M is that they need some kind of facility for the Bay Street corridor and they don't want to make the vehicles go too far in non-revenue operation to reach said facility, and this spot, which is more likely to be
seen as useless because of the existing guideway seems good enough. I do wonder what happens if all their dreams come true and the Skyway is converted for U2C use, what happens with either this facility or Skyway O&M. Surely they're not keeping both so which gets abandoned? The facility attached to the JRTC ended up effectively abandoned after the O&M was built so in theory based on age that would lose but it also has a better connection to the elevated structure so who knows?
What I really find curious is why it seems this is such a self-contained facility. There's not much reason why the datacenter and operations rooms and offices actually have to be a brand new facility colocated with the maintenance center. JTA just built brand new offices, surely those can go in there, or to Armsdale, or to Myrtle. And then a smaller maintenance depot can go here or to another site. If Beep is presumably going to be handling some of their work from Lake Nona or Guident from Boca Raton anyway then it's not that big a deal to have offices literally on top of the maintenance center.
Quote from: simms3 on August 04, 2023, 12:10:43 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 04, 2023, 09:38:35 AM
JTA knows absolutely nothing about creating a vibrant downtown. This whole U2C project is proof of that, but with each new component, they keep showing their lack of understanding.
And to think they are basically in charge of the TOD overlay bill that was passed...they determine highest and best use in that bill. They are the gatekeepers for building the city up within the overlay. The "TOD overlay" also mostly references bus ("BRT") routes. LOL
Quote from: Steve on August 04, 2023, 10:34:51 AM
seriously....this is one of the worst projects I've seen in the core. I realize the Acosta Ramps and Skyway make this block weird, but this is effectively a warehouse.
I feel like it wouldn't actually be all that hard to come up with an activation for this area. All we have to do is look at RAM for inspiration on what to do under highway overpasses!
I mean personally from a zoning standpoint I'd count regular bus stops for TOD purposes, even if developers are obviously not going to build skyscrapers around the 23 Bus. But for better or worse JTA spent $140 million of mostly federal money on BRT infrastructure, we ought to have the land use framework to make use of that investment. However it is ludicrous that they would legally have any direct role in the TOD. Their job is to build transit, not real estate (or self-driving R&D projects). They should certainly help in making that transit work with prospective development but forcing themselves into the position of picking and choosing projects to call TOD is madness. The market knows more than them.
Lack of community engagement during the U2C planning process leads to a proposal to waste a valuable property with such a use. This U2C thing has so much tunnel vision, they've totally overlooked the real world around them. This one will likely result in a public fight bigger than the Daily's project. People, and in particular our public agencies, are going to learn the hard way, about what real inclusive community participation and engagement actually is.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 04, 2023, 08:36:57 AM
Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/JTA-U2C-LaVilla-Maintenance-Center/i-Xc6P3V5/0/ca8d58eb/L/JTA%20Jefferson%20Street%20Rendering-L.jpg)
Another high profile block in LaVilla is being targeted for infill development. At the intersection of Bay and Jefferson Streets, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority would like to construct and operations and maintenance building for the proposed U2C Bay Street Innovation Corridor project. Take a look at the plans recently submitted to the Downtown Development Review Board and let us know what you think!
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/jta-om-facility-proposed-for-lavilla/
(https://i.postimg.cc/85Rf54Pw/364-CBC48-E1-A0-426-E-A3-E1-7808-C9-B8-AD6-A.gif)
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 04, 2023, 06:05:18 PM
I wonder how much of the $57 million currently budgeted is just this building.
The JTA did present the U2C project to the heritage trail committee last fall. The building had a different design (I will see if I can find the rendering) back then. It was recommended that they attempt to mimic or play homage to Railroad Row's architectural styles and footprint, as this was the site of one of Jacksonville's first breweries (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/3-jacksonville-breweries-of-yesteryear/). My memory is pretty fuzzy on the cost but I believe it was in the $6 to $9 million range.
QuoteI do see in the staff report that they recommend getting rid of the equipment area facing Jefferson, so that might improve things somewhat.
They need on-the-ground pedestrian interaction and an architectural facade makeover that's consistent with LaVilla's character. As the area continues to redevelop, Jefferson Street is the only street where a pedestrian can cross the tracks on foot to access Brooklyn and the Whole Foods market currently under construction. We can't continue to allow pedestrian hostile design solutions for projects being proposed in the area.
QuoteMy guess on why this is specifically here instead of at the JRTC or Myrtle or Skyway O&M is that they need some kind of facility for the Bay Street corridor and they don't want to make the vehicles go too far in non-revenue operation to reach said facility, and this spot, which is more likely to be seen as useless because of the existing guideway seems good enough.
Something was said similar to this, as to why the selected the site. However, one could argue that the portion of the site that is not under the skyway, has just as much potential for other uses, as it does for the proposed operational center. Heck, a wholesale use like a craft brewery or a drive thru coffee shop/similar type of retail operation with a pedestrian edge on Jefferson, makes more sense from a context perspective.
QuoteI do wonder what happens if all their dreams come true and the Skyway is converted for U2C use, what happens with either this facility or Skyway O&M. Surely they're not keeping both so which gets abandoned? The facility attached to the JRTC ended up effectively abandoned after the O&M was built so in theory based on age that would lose but it also has a better connection to the elevated structure so who knows?
From a design perspective, it would be good to make sure that this building can easily be repurposed for something else. It's still a big stretch to believe this U2C thing will be around in the long run. So once this Bay Street experiment fails, leave some space for silos and outdoor dining that a craft brewpub, distillery, bakery, etc. may need.
This is one ugly building! Daily's looks like the Taj Mahal compared to it. The building is on par with a JEA electrical substation or sewer treatment facility, that is to say it's scraping the bottom of the barrel in aesthetic offensiveness. Another nail in Downtown's coffin (if it isn't already dead yet).
If the AV's can truly operate at ground level, why is it a stretch to bring them to the bus center on Myrtle, just 3 or 4 blocks away. And, doesn't the Skyway already have an elevated maintenance facility at the end for the track (although I am not seeing any connection in the renderings to the elevated track so not sure why it has to be in proximity to it)?
Where is DIA and the DDRB on this?
Just another log on the failing fires of this project and Downtown. Pure idiocy in leadership.
Just to compare, here is the cable car "operations facility"/museum in San Francisco. What a difference!
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/San_Francisco_Cable_Car_Museum_-_San_Francisco%2C_CA_-_DSC02375.jpg)
(https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/23/15/50/21813761/5/1200x0.jpg)
Quote
My guess on why this is specifically here instead of at the JRTC or Myrtle or Skyway O&M is that they need some kind of facility for the Bay Street corridor and they don't want to make the vehicles go too far in non-revenue operation to reach said facility, and this spot, which is more likely to be seen as useless because of the existing guideway seems good enough.
Not sure I understand this criticism. I thought the U2C was to run "revenue service" from the JRTC to the Sports District ("... and beyond!"). If so, using the Myrtle Avenue facility is appropriate. Also, as others have said, if the U2C is supposed to run on the elevated Skyway, its O&M facility in Brooklyn makes sense.
Quote
My guess on why this is specifically here instead of at the JRTC or Myrtle or Skyway O&M is that they need some kind of facility for the Bay Street corridor and they don't want to make the vehicles go too far in non-revenue operation to reach said facility, and this spot, which is more likely to be seen as useless because of the existing guideway seems good enough.
This site isn't useless, necessarily. It might make for small park for the area. FDOT worked with RAP to put to good use the land under the Fuller Warren in Riverside . Possibilities like a RAM, dog or skate park, art walk, sculpture garden, flower garden, passive park, fountain/water feature, etc. How about the future offices of Visit Jax given its at an entry point to Downtown from both the Southbank and I-10/I-95 visitors? That "creativity" could certainly work wonders here and would enhance Downtown vs. this dumpster fire.
The part of the site that is not covered by the skyway is more than enough for another use. I mean, they are proposing to stick a warehouse there. You could take that building's square footage and it would be perfect for a craft brewery, bakery, etc.
We were able to get this one deferred today. It was a weird meeting. JTA came with a bunch of new renderings and plans that no one (including the DDRB board and DIA staff) had seen and attempted to get conceptual approval....even though they admitted that many of the new changes were not budgeted for in their project and would come at a later undetermined date. We pushed to defer it. No reason to approve a concept when no one except JTA understood what the concept was. Hopefully, over the next few weeks, they will work with the LaVilla community on the actual design process prior to a workshop. I think this is the biggest lesson people are going to have to learn with LaVilla. Community engagement is not meeting with people once, but leaving them out of the actual design process. Also, while every project has its own internal goals, that doesn't mean we can totally ignore what's going on around it. In particular, it was mentioned that JTA has at least 8 sites evaluated for their O&M center and that they decided that this one would be the best location. Unfortunately, the community was not involved in that evaluation and it should have been.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/aug/10/downtown-development-review-board-defers-vote-on-jta-lavilla-project/
Thanks for the update. This one really doesn't make sense.