Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/TIAA-Bank-FIeld-Renovation/i-f5WgMvr/0/f8ac3e05/L/Screenshot_20230613_075344_Chrome-L.jpg)
The Jacksonville Jaguars are promising not to displace Eastside residents as the team embarks on a massive renovation of TIAA Bank Field.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/jaguars-vow-to-protect-eastside-in-stadium-renovation/
I don't think we need to worry about a trickle effect into the Eastside causing property prices to skyrocket any time soon. We will all be in a box six feet under if that day ever comes, when you have an existing Downtown filled with abandoned/underutilized properties, brown fields and surface lots.
And speaking of surface lots, theres plenty of them for John Parker to take his gas guzzler to and tailgate if he can stomach walking an extra five minutes to the stadium 10 days a year. The diehard tailgaters are the last ones they should be listening to. Their money is already in the bank, its the family who might be hesitant to come to Jacksonville for a weekend or the couple who would rather go to the Beaches or STJC than Downtown.
If the Jags are successful in building out an "entertainment district" around the stadium, it will either kill Downtown's future for same (as Regency Square did for Downtown retail in the 1960's) or fail because Jax can't support three "entertainment districts" (the Stadium, Downtown and Town Center) simultaneously given its current demographics.
Anyone who thinks entertainment style development around the stadium will help Downtown anytime in the next 10 or 20 years is buying fools' gold. Thus, the City should not be a party to portion of the Jags plan at all. And, I don't think the odds are great that the Four Seasons makes it beyond 10 years, if that long, unless Khan supports it out of pride alone.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 13, 2023, 11:37:41 PM
If the Jags are successful in building out an "entertainment district" around the stadium, it will either kill Downtown's future for same (as Regency Square did for Downtown retail in the 1960's) or fail because Jax can't support three "entertainment districts" (the Stadium, Downtown and Town Center) simultaneously given its current demographics.
Anyone who thinks entertainment style development around the stadium will help Downtown anytime in the next 10 or 20 years is buying fools' gold. Thus, the City should not be a party to portion of the Jags plan at all. And, I don't think the odds are great that the Four Seasons makes it beyond 10 years, if that long, unless Khan supports it out of pride alone.
Considering everything that's been pissed away over the last 50 years trying to revive the downtown "core", I say onward with the Jags project. Or, we could just tell this new opportunity to pound sand because we like trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results. And let's face reality. The Town Center is absolutely not an entertainment district. It's an outdoor mall with a handful of restaurants, most of which are cheap chains. There's not a single bar or live music venue there. Top Golf is really the only entertainment option and that place will do just fine regardless of what happens downtown.
As long as it makes sense for taxpayers, development should be fine and desired in the sports district. We're still short on details of what is proposed for each parcel surrounding the stadium. I'm looking forward to learning more.
The fact that JLT used "fools gold" and called the Town Center an entertainment district shows that they are not at all the target demo for the stadium district. Retail is surviving at the Town Center, but anything oriented towards the after 8 pm crowd has shut down. One of the longest standing nightlife spots, Black Finn, is about to become a furniture store. Maybe the residents of the area congregate at Texas Roadhouse and I just wasn't aware, but nightlife at the town center is dead.
As for the sports district, people are already in the area over 200 days a year for events at the arena, Daily's, the baseball grounds, or the stadium. These developments are not going to fundamentally change the entertainment landscape or center of Jacksonville development as we know it. What it will do is give a better experience to the people already coming to the area as well as a living option for people who want a more active environment.
A UF campus would not be an entertainment element. I assume there will be some multifamily housing as well. While there will be entertainment oriented retail, dining and nightlife experiences, it all sounds more like a true mixed-use district and/or a rebirth of a walkable district that was razed decades ago. On the surface, that's a major plus over surface parking lots. The devil is in the details but if the Eastside community can be protected and be a true part of the economic development, this can be a great thing.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 13, 2023, 11:37:41 PM
If the Jags are successful in building out an "entertainment district" around the stadium, it will either kill Downtown's future for same (as Regency Square did for Downtown retail in the 1960's) or fail because Jax can't support three "entertainment districts" (the Stadium, Downtown and Town Center) simultaneously given its current demographics.
Agreed on that. Our entertainment scene in town is really spread out, with different ages seemingly going to completely different parts of town.
I do hope that their efforts here are genuine. IDK how you prevent gentrification of the Eastside with $2.5B+ of projects occurring in a hyper focused area. That's pretty huge locally. Especially if Springfield continues its trajectory. I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this one.
"Entertainment" can mean different things to different people. I am including dining and retail experiences as elements of same. Yes, there is a bar and music crowd, but there are plenty of others who like to eat and shop and are fine with spending a day or evening with that. Most likely that demographic skews older and includes people with more disposable income so they should not be overlooked.
I was also thinking more in comparison to Downtown's "dream" of creating a bar and music scene in the North Core. I don't see how that feasibly gets going if there is another such area by the stadium. At least, not for a very long time (i.e. in years to decades). The City needs to consider picking one horse at a time to ride, for now. It's a waste of taxpayer dollars to try and support more than one such area. Are we really ready to pick the stadium area as that horse?
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 14, 2023, 11:30:13 AM
"Entertainment" can mean different things to different people. I am including dining and retail experiences as elements of same. Yes, there is a bar and music crowd, but there are plenty of others who like to eat and shop and are fine with spending a day or evening with that. Most likely that demographic skews older and includes people with more disposable income so they should not be overlooked.
I was also thinking more in comparison to Downtown's "dream" of creating a bar and music scene in the North Core. I don't see how that feasibly gets going if there is another such area by the stadium. At least, not for a very long time (i.e. in years to decades). The City needs to consider picking one horse at a time to ride, for now. It's a waste of taxpayer dollars to try and support more than one such area. Are we really ready to pick the stadium area as that horse?
Some dreams are meant to die. When you consider all the time, money and energy spent trying to see the dream of an active Northbank take flight, it would be a complete disservice to the city to not objectively look at the situation and say "this ends now". If it's able to grow organically over the years, that would be awesome for sure. But enough already. It's also totally possible to have more than one entertainment district. Atlanta has what... a dozen or so clustered areas spread all over town? And have you been to the entertainment district built around the new(ish) Braves stadium? I have and it's a great experience. When you consider everything that happens here in the sports district on average each year, building out additional entertainment to compliment is a no brainer. So, if the numbers make sense, Donna needs to make sure this moves forward for the viability of Jacksonville.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 14, 2023, 11:30:13 AM
I was also thinking more in comparison to Downtown's "dream" of creating a bar and music scene in the North Core. I don't see how that feasibly gets going if there is another such area by the stadium. At least, not for a very long time (i.e. in years to decades). The City needs to consider picking one horse at a time to ride, for now. It's a waste of taxpayer dollars to try and support more than one such area. Are we really ready to pick the stadium area as that horse?
Better zoning, better pedestrian experience, and better utilization of city infrastructure will turn downtown around faster than money. For example, the APR district could be the new hot spot for nightlife in town, and all the city needs to do is let it. Pretty soon you'll have Manifest, the expanded That Bar, Intuition, the Bierhalle, and the Doro restaurant & bar within 3 blocks of each other on the APR corridor. Make the existing city parking infrastructure open and free on non arena event nights, don't bag the parking meters, and maybe even allow food trucks to park outside the Jumbo Shrimp stadium (gasp). You don't need more public investment. COJ just needs to get out of the way.
Jacksonville already has examples of dual nightlife areas flourishing in close proximity to each other: 5 Points vs King Street, Avondale vs Murray Hill, Jax Beach vs Beaches Town Center. I don't think Bay street has to lose for the stadium district to succeed and I think Bay street could benefit from another entertainment district nearby.
Lot J is farther from Myth Nightclub than 5 points is from King street, yet both riverside areas function at a much higher level than downtown. If the stadium district is built correctly, it will be a successful draw and could have spillover affects for the bay street district.
The predatory use, or lack of use, of alcohol licenses in JAX doesn't help any of these conversations either. I could be completely wrong as this is old info but last I heard it was $100k+ to get a full liquor license.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 14, 2023, 11:02:29 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 13, 2023, 11:37:41 PM
If the Jags are successful in building out an "entertainment district" around the stadium, it will either kill Downtown's future for same (as Regency Square did for Downtown retail in the 1960's) or fail because Jax can't support three "entertainment districts" (the Stadium, Downtown and Town Center) simultaneously given its current demographics.
Agreed on that. Our entertainment scene in town is really spread out, with different ages seemingly going to completely different parts of town.
I do hope that their efforts here are genuine. IDK how you prevent gentrification of the Eastside with $2.5B+ of projects occurring in a hyper focused area. That's pretty huge locally. Especially if Springfield continues its trajectory. I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this one.
I don't expect the Jags (or any other outside developer) to do much of anything to prevent gentrification in the Eastside. That's not their area of expertise. They aren't Eastsiders and definitely aren't engulfed in the culture to be able to lead solutions. However, they can assist and support the Eastside with anti-gentrification initiatives already underway. The Eastside actually wants development and economic development. It just doesn't want to be run over by it. To not run it over, we have to be intentional with our public policies to prevent it. In the past, (i.e. LaVilla and Brooklyn) we have not. We've actually encouraged the replacement of those communities.
Quote from: WarDamJagFan on June 14, 2023, 11:49:05 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 14, 2023, 11:30:13 AM
"Entertainment" can mean different things to different people. I am including dining and retail experiences as elements of same. Yes, there is a bar and music crowd, but there are plenty of others who like to eat and shop and are fine with spending a day or evening with that. Most likely that demographic skews older and includes people with more disposable income so they should not be overlooked.
I was also thinking more in comparison to Downtown's "dream" of creating a bar and music scene in the North Core. I don't see how that feasibly gets going if there is another such area by the stadium. At least, not for a very long time (i.e. in years to decades). The City needs to consider picking one horse at a time to ride, for now. It's a waste of taxpayer dollars to try and support more than one such area. Are we really ready to pick the stadium area as that horse?
Some dreams are meant to die. When you consider all the time, money and energy spent trying to see the dream of an active Northbank take flight, it would be a complete disservice to the city to not objectively look at the situation and say "this ends now". If it's able to grow organically over the years, that would be awesome for sure. But enough already. It's also totally possible to have more than one entertainment district. Atlanta has what... a dozen or so clustered areas spread all over town? And have you been to the entertainment district built around the new(ish) Braves stadium? I have and it's a great experience. When you consider everything that happens here in the sports district on average each year, building out additional entertainment to compliment is a no brainer. So, if the numbers make sense, Donna needs to make sure this moves forward for the viability of Jacksonville.
To be clear, my point about supporting limited numbers of "entertainment" districts relates to Jax's size. We are far smaller than Atlanta so I don't think that is a valid comparison. We also, surely, have a lot less visitors/tourists to support these areas. This may change one day but I don't think we are there anytime soon.
To me, fine, build an entertainment district at the Stadium, just realize it may have the undesirable consequence of holding back some possibilities for the North Core. Noting Captain's comments, I hope I am wrong but Downtown's track record isn't good. For once, it would be great to break the trend.
There's only so many Disney Worlds and amusement parks that can be supported. However, there's no limit on how many mixed-use neighborhoods can be built and supported. Probably just as many as the sprawling strip malls popping up all over the suburbs like Nocatee, CR 210, Durbin Park, Town Center, Oakleaf, RCM and SR 200 in Yulee.
Still waiting to hear details on what's actually proposed and where. Are we talking about 500,000 square feet or entertainment oriented uses or 50,000 square feet? Depending on the layout, both can qualify as "entertainment districts" however, the numbers have two different meanings when it comes to what can and can not be supported. Will there be 200 new multifamily units or 2,000? Will the UF campus be a commuter campus or will there be dorms? At this point, all I've heard is buzz words but not specifics.
We shall see how it plays out. This one is going to be hard to prevent.. well given the port's proximity and the Stadium's being built adjacent to it all. That specific area now has our lovely Ford Plant project & a future mega site from Southeast Toyota vacating. Not to mention everything else.
Luckily, we know what don't works. That's doing nothing to stop displacement....which actually ends up encouraging it. Brooklyn is a perfect local example of what not to do from that perspective.
We also know that areas that have slowed it down, have done things proactively to protect themselves. So I do love that the Eastside has got really proactive to implement policies, strategies and investments that have to intent to allow the community members to prosper in place, protect the built environment and have real opportunities to eat at the economic development table too. Vantage Point Coffee Company, a new Black-owned coffee roaster and coffeehouse going into the Union Terminal Warehouse project, is a great example.
Even the Ford plant demolition is an opportunity, assuming it ends up with a historical community employment generator like a shipyard or a maritime related industry that creates better paying jobs than low paying service jobs. A couple hundred decent paying jobs there will be better for that particular neighborhood than a soccer stadium. Same likely goes for Southeast Toyota. If they're leaving, I imagine Jaxport or a private shipping terminal operator will jump on that site.
Eastside is setting up to be a good local case study. It's exciting to see and witness.
What I am most interested in is to see what labor force is hired at those new port sites. What is their requirements & experience criteria? Those two sites alone could probably employ a significant % of that hyperlocal population.