Big new article in Florida Politics today.
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/616416-jags-stadium-cost/
Here's the critical part:
QuoteThe Jaguars and the Shahid Khan vehicle "Iguana Investments" envision a total investment that could cost as much as $2.068 billion, a number that could include stadium improvements costing between $1.2 and $1.4 billion, as well as between $550 and $668 million for development of a "sports district." That sports district essentially could be a reboot of the Lot J concept rebuffed by the City Council earlier this decade.
Overall, this would be a 50-50 cost share between the city and the team, according to a document dated May 11 — just days before the mayoral election.
The stadium cost would be largely shouldered by the city government, which could be on the hook for anywhere between $800 and $934 million — two-thirds of the overall price tag. The city share would be more than the $760 million Nashville is spending on its $2.1 billion domed stadium, with the state of Tennessee adding $500 million — an option the state of Florida will not offer.
It would include a presumably retractable roof that affords "sun protection on all seats (and) protection from rain and other severe weather conditions," as well as better elevators and escalators.
The sports district development, meanwhile, would be largely funded by Khan, with the city obligated to spend between $75 million and $100 million, just 14% of the overall project cost.
All told, the city might spend as little as $875 million, or as much as $1.034 billion. That would be a 50/50 cost split on the whole project with Khan, whose net worth of $11.4 billion is more than seven years of the city's general fund budget.
There's a lot more analysis and information in there, but that's probably the topline stuff.
Oh, almost forgot the other big thing, which I'll also post in its thread.
QuoteIn both documents, the Jaguars also hope to "bring the University of Florida graduate campus to the current Fairgrounds property." That location would unlock money from Tallahassee, which has already committed $75 million to the UF campus in the 2023 Session, sidestepping the state's unwillingness to contribute to stadium projects.
The Jaguars offer deal sweeteners in both documents, including $5 million to help meet the statutorily required local fundraising requirement, a donation of the 14-acre Fairgrounds to UF, and the creation of a "vibrant mixed-use neighborhood."
The May 24 document includes more aspirational language to "support development in the downtown core," including a so-called "barbell effect" with the proposed mixed-use Eastside development as a "catalyst" for westerly development downtown.
Meanwhile, both iterations enthuse about the Gator Bowl becoming part of the college football playoffs and continuation of the neutral-site Florida-Georgia game. The Gator Bowl is stressed as a reason to get the deal done "at least 12 months in advance" of the expiration of the TV deal and naming rights deal, which runs through the 2025 game.
Both the Gator Bowl and Florida-Georgia would relocate during 2026 and 2027 and return to Jacksonville in 2028 if this timeline holds.
1st DownTown will be unveiling the new stadium renderings tomorrow morning (June 7th) at 10am.
https://twitter.com/1stdowntownjax/status/1666086407025364996?s=20
Make it happen.
The combination of a new stadium, Lot J 2.0, UF at the Fairgrounds, and a long-term lease extension for $1 billion is a no brainer in my opinion.
Was honestly expecting over $850 million just for the stadium.
Swallow the frog, get it done in two years, and let the Jags grow the regional fanbase in Gville, Orlando, and Daytona.
Hoping we cap London home games at 1 per season, and don't let the overseas game become a stupid dealbreaker.
Personally if being picky, I'd want UF in center of the urban core, but its not a deal breaker to me if that absolutely has to be out east, I could concede that. Very much for this whole thing on the face of it. Nothing else is happening in DT Jacksonville of substance. It might even turn out rejecting Lot J the first time is a blessing as since the acquisition of the fairgrounds has also opened things up further.
Renderings, for once, will be very interesting in this city, as this actually has a reasonable chance provided politicians don't kill it. Very intrigued to see if they're going for the whole package at one time with the district/stadium or it'll just be the stadium on its own we see tomorrow.
Quote from: landfall on June 06, 2023, 01:39:27 PM
Personally if being picky, I'd want UF in center of the urban core, but its not a deal breaker to me if that absolutely has to be out east, I could concede that. Very much for this whole thing on the face of it. Nothing else is happening in DT Jacksonville of substance.
In a vacuum, I totally agree that the true urban core would be the best location for UF.
But ultimately, I think it has its best shot at success if Shad Khan has a vested interest in the project. If he's willing to donate the land, put up $5 million+ in private donations, and integrate the campus into his plans for the stadium district, I think I trust that more than letting the city figure out how to maybe, possibly combine it with FSCJ and JEA Utility parcels. I think it happens faster, on budget, and potentially with short-term financial support from the state and more long-term financial support from the Khans at the Fairgrounds.
We'll still have the same problems in the urban core that we've been unable to overcome for decades if the deal goes through, but man, when you talk about a new stadium, Lot J 2.0, a Four Seasons, UF, MOSH, Shipyards West park, and a refurbished Met Park and marina, Union Terminal Warehouse, and a potential soccer stadium, you've got the makings of a really, really interesting area starting to come together down by the sports district.
Something caught my eye from the article -
Quote
would include a presumably retractable roof
This is the first I've seen mention of a
retractable roof. How much does that add to the cost? Is that a potential negotiation point between the City and the Jags?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 06, 2023, 02:17:58 PM
Quote from: landfall on June 06, 2023, 01:39:27 PM
Personally if being picky, I'd want UF in center of the urban core, but its not a deal breaker to me if that absolutely has to be out east, I could concede that. Very much for this whole thing on the face of it. Nothing else is happening in DT Jacksonville of substance.
In a vacuum, I totally agree that the true urban core would be the best location for UF.
But ultimately, I think it has its best shot at success if Shad Khan has a vested interest in the project. If he's willing to donate the land, put up $5 million+ in private donations, and integrate the campus into his plans for the stadium district, I think I trust that more than letting the city figure out how to maybe, possibly combine it with FSCJ and JEA Utility parcels. I think it happens faster, on budget, and potentially with short-term financial support from the state and more long-term financial support from the Khans at the Fairgrounds.
We'll still have the same problems in the urban core that we've been unable to overcome for decades if the deal goes through, but man, when you talk about a new stadium, Lot J 2.0, a Four Seasons, UF, MOSH, Shipyards West park, and a refurbished Met Park and marina, Union Terminal Warehouse, and a potential soccer stadium, you've got the makings of a really, really interesting area starting to come together down by the sports district.
I'd imagine this could affect the future of FL/GA as UGA may not consider Jacksonville a true "neutral" site game with a UF campus immediately adjacent to the stadium.
Otherwise, for everything that's included I believe this is a no-brainer although the devil is always in the details and I hope both sides negotiate in good faith. A good first test for the Deegan administration
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 06, 2023, 02:57:37 PM
Quote
would include a presumably retractable roof
This is the first I've seen mention of a retractable roof. How much does that add to the cost? Is that a potential negotiation point between the City and the Jags?
The roof won't be retractable.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 06, 2023, 10:23:32 AM
1st DownTown will be unveiling the new stadium renderings tomorrow morning (June 7th) at 10am.
https://twitter.com/1stdowntownjax/status/1666086407025364996?s=20
I can't wait for the renderings, which likely change dramatically (and if past is prologue, not for the better)!
I'm interested to learn more about the potential of a community benefits agreement for the Eastside and plans for equitable economic development opportunities north of the expressway.
And for the love of God, take that barbell development nonsense out back and kill it for good. There's a good amount of development happening in the core of the Northbank now. It's not reliant on what takes place in the Eastside (i.e. Sports District). Nevertheless, no one is really going to complain about better using underutilized surface parking lots around the stadium. Hopefully, COJ sells the land around the stadium, so that the development ends up on the tax rolls.
Putting aside whether having the taxpayers pay $1 billion (that's about $1,000 for every man, woman and child in Jax, not counting interest on the likely bond debt) is fair and appropriate, I have to be convinced the final cost to taxpayers isn't going to be higher than the amount that is going to be arrived at via negotiations.
Like almost any large civic building project this City has ever been involved with, the original stadium was way over the budget promised taxpayers and I believe there is a good chance this will be too given its complexity and lengthy time frame. Deegan should insist on any agreed taxpayer contribution being capped and having the Jags take on the risk of any cost overruns, whether due to change orders, inflation, unforeseen circumstances, etc.
I expect that's the way the deal will be. Jags manage construction, COJ portion capped, Jags responsible for overages.
Every project Khan has done with the Jags here has been that way.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 07, 2023, 12:01:54 AM
Putting aside whether having the taxpayers pay $1 billion (that's about $1,000 for every man, woman and child in Jax, not counting interest on the likely bond debt) is fair and appropriate, I have to be convinced the final cost to taxpayers isn't going to be higher than the amount that is going to be arrived at via negotiations.
Like almost any large civic building project this City has ever been involved with, the original stadium was way over the budget promised taxpayers and I believe there is a good chance this will be too given its complexity and lengthy time frame. Deegan should insist on any agreed taxpayer contribution being capped and having the Jags take on the risk of any cost overruns, whether due to change orders, inflation, unforeseen circumstances, etc.
Your history lesson forgets that in the original 1993 stadium construction, the City's contribution was capped with the Jaguars covering any cost over runs. The subsequent 2004 renovation (for Super Bowl), 2013 and 2017 renovations also had that same provision. Kahn's own entirely self-financed upgrades in 2010 didnt have any taxpayer contributions. However, the construction of the Miller Performance Center set to open next month (on time and on budget) once again capped taxpayer contributions in the case of cost overruns. The 1993 stadium construction did not come in over budget, and the Jags had incentive sweeteners in previous construction projects to encourage cost management to be kept in check.
The initial pre-cast construction method based upon copying the West upper deck and subsequent incremental approach to enhancements over the last 30 years (which also produced an Ampitheater that the City had been unable to build going back to the massive Better Jacksonville Plan almost 25 years ago) has probably been one of the most fiscally prudent ways to have financed an NFL stadium in the entire league. In that same timeframe, some NFL cities have built two new stadiums or substantially upgraded newly constructed stadiums. Jax didn't follow those approaches. For the past 30 years, the stadium and surrounding developments have not caused a strain on the City budget, and for the most part the bonds have all been paid by specific user fees tied to the stadium and not from diverting funds that would otherwise be used all over the wider Duval County area. If you get beyond the rhetoric and people's personal bias about wealthy NFL owners, the actual stadium financing to date has been very sound.
Mike Weinstein, who was in charge of most of the previous stadium construction/renovation agreements, has been tasked to lead the new stadium development agreement on the City's behalf.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 06, 2023, 10:42:32 PM
I'm interested to learn more about the potential of a community benefits agreement for the Eastside and plans for equitable economic development opportunities north of the expressway.
And for the love of God, take that barbell development nonsense out back and kill it for good. There's a good amount of development happening in the core of the Northbank now. It's not reliant on what takes place in the Eastside (i.e. Sports District). Nevertheless, no one is really going to complain about better using underutilized surface parking lots around the stadium. Hopefully, COJ sells the land around the stadium, so that the development ends up on the tax rolls.
As soon as property values hit near Springfield levels (aka new construction is profitable) the Eastside should be able to revitalize fairly quickly given the of it size and how it is platted. Interesting to see how that is handled of course given the significant % of renters living here.
That last part I couldn't agree more. Didn't realize how much land COJ has even behind the JAGS stadium too. This is probably the time to let that go.. there is also a block size assemblage for sale one block from the JAGS stadium right now.. could be a DORO part 2. Lots of good RE activity going on here.. need to make sure locals aren't taken advantage of and displaced.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 07, 2023, 08:24:48 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 06, 2023, 10:42:32 PM
I'm interested to learn more about the potential of a community benefits agreement for the Eastside and plans for equitable economic development opportunities north of the expressway.
And for the love of God, take that barbell development nonsense out back and kill it for good. There's a good amount of development happening in the core of the Northbank now. It's not reliant on what takes place in the Eastside (i.e. Sports District). Nevertheless, no one is really going to complain about better using underutilized surface parking lots around the stadium. Hopefully, COJ sells the land around the stadium, so that the development ends up on the tax rolls.
As soon as property values hit near Springfield levels (aka new construction is profitable) the Eastside should be able to revitalize fairly quickly given the of it size and how it is platted. Interesting to see how that is handled of course given the significant % of renters living here.
That last part I couldn't agree more. Didn't realize how much land COJ has even behind the JAGS stadium too. This is probably the time to let that go.. there is also a block size assemblage for sale one block from the JAGS stadium right now.. could be a DORO part 2. Lots of good RE activity going on here.. need to make sure locals aren't taken advantage of and displaced.
New residential construction has been happening on the Eastside for several years now.
Quote from: fieldafm on June 07, 2023, 09:50:19 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 07, 2023, 08:24:48 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 06, 2023, 10:42:32 PM
I'm interested to learn more about the potential of a community benefits agreement for the Eastside and plans for equitable economic development opportunities north of the expressway.
And for the love of God, take that barbell development nonsense out back and kill it for good. There's a good amount of development happening in the core of the Northbank now. It's not reliant on what takes place in the Eastside (i.e. Sports District). Nevertheless, no one is really going to complain about better using underutilized surface parking lots around the stadium. Hopefully, COJ sells the land around the stadium, so that the development ends up on the tax rolls.
As soon as property values hit near Springfield levels (aka new construction is profitable) the Eastside should be able to revitalize fairly quickly given the of it size and how it is platted. Interesting to see how that is handled of course given the significant % of renters living here.
That last part I couldn't agree more. Didn't realize how much land COJ has even behind the JAGS stadium too. This is probably the time to let that go.. there is also a block size assemblage for sale one block from the JAGS stadium right now.. could be a DORO part 2. Lots of good RE activity going on here.. need to make sure locals aren't taken advantage of and displaced.
New residential construction has been happening on the Eastside for several years now.
My industry doesn't compare public-private partnerships to private enterprise. Just like the projects DT that have been going on for "decades."
Please tell me how you build new construction SFH's on the Eastside for profit? I'd love to hear.
The New Stadium video (couldn't figure out how to embed the vid)
https://youtu.be/h556-OxMSwA
^There's quite a few being built now. So much that we're trying to get a zoning overlay in place to better guide construction so that they won't destroy the sense of place and walkable fabric of the neighborhood.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 07, 2023, 10:31:14 AM
The New Stadium video (couldn't figure out how to embed the vid)
https://youtu.be/h556-OxMSwA
I'm publishing an article on this now that will include the video.
The renderings sure look great! But we all know how commonplace "Value Engineering" is in Jacksonville... We almost never end up with anything close to the original proposal.
I have to say that I'm impressed with the scale of the overall plans for the district, as well as the look of the stadium. WOW!!
QuoteA First Look at the Stadium of the Future
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/TIAA-Bank-FIeld-Renovation/i-JdWrh7t/0/c3a054b0/L/2023_0607_StadiumoftheFutureRendering-1-L.jpg)
A look at recently released plans for the stadium of the future for the Jacksonville Jaguars by 1st Downtown Jacksonville.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-first-look-at-the-stadium-of-the-future/
Quote from: thelakelander on June 07, 2023, 10:32:04 AM
^There's quite a few being built now. So much that we're trying to get a zoning overlay in place to better guide construction so that they won't destroy the sense of place and walkable fabric of the neighborhood.
They are either LISC or another state sponsored entity.
The only man in town that could do it is the owner of American Classic Homes. There have been 5 homes sold there in the last 5 years. The only true new construction homes have been built by him. I guarantee every single person in here can't replicate his costs. The facts he's only done 2-3 over the years demonstrates the lack of viable economics.. currently. That can change here soon.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 07, 2023, 10:32:04 AM
^There's quite a few being built now. So much that we're trying to get a zoning overlay in place to better guide construction so that they won't destroy the sense of place and walkable fabric of the neighborhood.
An Eastside overlay is needed.
Beautiful design, solves the shade problem, built with resiliency in mind.
Sign me up.
Initial thoughts
1. oooh shiny outside, kinda like the Chicago Bean (first VE victim)
2. are the north end zone pools gone?
3. "ground level" suites: which actually look to be below ground level - pay extra to see the backs of the players on (by) the benches?
I haven't seen a rendering with a swooping wave like structure that has made it past the original renderings. This reminds me of the Mosh 2.0 and the daily's place renderings that looked amazing but don't get build. I'm also expecting it with the American lions building.
I'm more interested in the development of the surrounding district and the thought of UF being on APR.
I think a more realistic approach for the reflective cladding would be a translucent material similar to what was placed on top of Daily's place. They could still incorporate the custom lighting and color-match the exterior of the stadium to the event being hosted, and it will integrate with Daily's. It will be a lot less impressive, but these renderings are not very realistic. We're in a world where we had to whack some simple curving balconies off of the 4 Seasons office building development, so color me very skeptical.
I have to agree with lakelander; I was hoping to see something about the surrounding development in this announcement.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 07, 2023, 10:46:29 AM
Initial thoughts
1. oooh shiny outside, kinda like the Chicago Bean (first VE victim)
2. are the north end zone pools gone?
3. "ground level" suites: which actually look to be below ground level - pay extra to see the backs of the players on (by) the benches?
1. We'll see.
2. Pools are still there if you look at the renderings. They are just more integrated into seating areas in the north end zone now.
3. Ground level suites are very common nowadays. Most new stadiums have a ground level club or suite area. Look at SoFi.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on June 07, 2023, 11:14:49 AM
I think a more realistic approach for the reflective cladding would be a translucent material similar to what was placed on top of Daily's place. They could still incorporate the custom lighting and color-match the exterior of the stadium to the event being hosted, and it will integrate with Daily's. It will be a lot less impressive, but these renderings are not very realistic. We're in a world where we had to whack some simple curving balconies off of the 4 Seasons office building development, so color me very skeptical.
I have to agree with lakelander; I was hoping to see something about the surrounding development in this announcement.
Yeah, this seems a little too conceptual to take seriously. Even So-Fi Stadium isn't that curvy. My engineering friends are confused about the idea of doing a flexible roof per the renderings. Personally I was expecting something a bit closer to maybe (a discount) Titans Stadium than something that looks straight out of Qatar.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 07, 2023, 11:20:12 AM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 07, 2023, 10:46:29 AM
Initial thoughts
1. oooh shiny outside, kinda like the Chicago Bean (first VE victim)
2. are the north end zone pools gone?
3. "ground level" suites: which actually look to be below ground level - pay extra to see the backs of the players on (by) the benches?
1. We'll see.
2. Pools are still there if you look at the renderings. They are just more integrated into seating areas in the north end zone now. ah, I see them now, missed them in the video
3. Ground level suites are very common nowadays. Most new stadiums have a ground level club or suite area. Look at SoFi. still doesn't make them 'make sense' to me, unless you are longing for your HS football days (real or imagined)
Interesting comments from Mark Lamping in the Business Journal. Looks like little of this is etched in stone at this point so not sure how they can reliably cost it out or commit to the renderings.
QuoteThat process involved the Haskell companies. There were five phases. They have completed almost two of those five phases. That first phase revealed that its possible to achieve that objective of having a stadium that will serve the needs of all the stakeholders for decades to come through a renovation. They came to that conclusion through their evaluation of the building systems, primarily the structural systems. ...They came back with a positive report. With that in mind, we know that its possible to renovate. We prefer renovation for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which is new stadium construction costs continue to escalate year after year and renovations are significantly less expensive. That is the preferred path.
As you talk about renovation, there is the question of where do you begin? We tried to explain that while we don't have a final plan of what the stadium of the future will look like – because we need to go through the process with all the stakeholders. It's not just the Jaguars stadium, the stadium belongs to the entire community. We do know there are a handful of things that absolutely need to be a part of the Stadium of the Future.
The reflective exterior will be a nice extension of the "Jax" installation at the new riverfront park. This is assuming neither will be value-engineered into oblivion (as is usually the case around these parts)
I like the one rendering with mountains and windmills in the distance
Quote from: Todd_Parker on June 07, 2023, 11:37:40 AM
The reflective exterior will be a nice extension of the "Jax" installation at the new riverfront park. This is assuming neither will be value-engineered into oblivion (as is usually the case around these parts)
No big shiny JAX at Riverfront Plaza. Something more cost conscious is being formulated.
That highly reflective exterior will be just a thrill for Arlington commuters - in the morning coming across the Mathews Bridge with the rising sun reflecting into your eyes, and the reverse heading back to Arlington. From my commuting days, the Wells Fargo and Bank of America buildings were enough of a thrill in the mornings during certain times of the year.
Nate Monroe's take on the Jags deal. Sorry that the article is behind the TU paywall
If you subscribe:
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2023/06/07/shad-khan-jaguars-owner-is-playing-hardball-with-jacksonville-nate-monroe/70296861007/?fbclid=IwAR1Jrb1jvbAMf1KiLqyMA3rlgiREa9I9y0HXkhrTzCwIc8L56S5vqzc_P4Y
Quote
Khan has asked much of the city, and much it has provided.
His net worth, $11.4 billion, has soared, as has the $3.4 billion value of the team, which he purchased in 2011 for less than $800 million. Much of that value accrued during a performance dark ages among the worst in the NFL's history. Even then, the city and its fans delivered.
There was no law that said Khan had to ask the city for $1 billion, nor any requirement he roll out this ask on the eve of a new mayor taking office. It's not written in stone that an NFL owner do everything within their power to increase and then exploit maximum leverage over their host. Those were choices Khan simply made. He has chosen to play hardball.
^Love Nate, but disagree with the premise that Shad Khan is playing hardball with Jacksonville.
Playing hardball would have involved asking for a brand new stadium under threat of relocation.
The Jags proactively recommended a major renovation of the existing facility.
The price tag to add a plethora of improvements to a city-owned facility that are genuinely needed - protection from the elements, heat reduction during early season months, wider concourses, resiliency measures, replacement of irrigation and electrical systems, etc - is $1.3 to $1.4 billion.
Bills stadium is $1.6 billion. Vegas is $2 billion. Nashville is $2.1 billion. Sofi was $5 billion.
Seems like a fairly good price tag for the stadium all things considered.
In terms of fleecing the taxpayer, I don't know if there's a city in the league that's put as little true public money (e.g. not bed taxes or facility fees/ticket surcharges) into their NFL franchise over the last 30 years as Jacksonville has. There are teams who will have built two brand new stadiums by the time ours potentially opens.
Would be it great if Shad Khan altruistically funded the entire project out of pocket? Of course. And yes, other owners have done so, but it hasn't been out of altruism. It's because those stadiums are in major top-10 markets on tap for Olympics, Super Bowls, major annual college football games, World Cup matches, and the biggest touring acts in the country. Jacksonville ain't Los Angeles or New York, where the stadium is going to be a cash cow for a private owner outside of the football season.
But it's just not realistic to want to remain an NFL city, but scoff at the idea of putting significant public investment behind your stadium and ancillary development that generates local revenue 365 days a year. It's the new norm in the NFL, for better or worse, and Jax isn't being singled out or mistreated any more than any other market. Like I said, we've probably gotten it better than many.
If you want to argue that we shouldn't be putting any public money into professional sports and should just let the Jags walk, that's a different argument that may have validity for many. And if you want to argue that no economic impact study has shown a positive ROI for pro sports, I think we're missing the entire quality of life element of these facilities and events dating all the way back to the Roman Empire. It's as much about creating a place where people want to live and stay as it is turning a profit on paper.
Sucks that Jacksonville won't be eligible for the same state funds as other markets, but that doesn't change the price tag. Also sucks that we have other underfunded needs as well, but as city, we can't expect to have both rock bottom taxes and nice things.
I don't even mind the London game if it's capped at one. We've got an extra home game every other year now anyway, it's become a bit of a tradition, it drives a lot of local revenue for the team that would otherwise manifest itself in higher ticket prices for local games, and - assuming our city leaders were able to capitalize on the synergy between the two cities beyond over-subsidizing a relocation that would have happened regardless - it is a great opportunity.
We had to know this day was coming. The overall city price tag is in line with what we should have expected if we read the room in other markets, and even the adjacent development is genuinely needed to complement other investment we've already made with the Four Seasons, MOSH, Shipyards West, Orleck, Baseball Grounds, etc.
Can't have our cake and eat it too.
A billion or slightly below to keep the team here through 2050+, massive improve the stadium experience, lure more events, stand up complementary entertainment at the sports complex, ain't a bad deal at ALL.
Totally agree. Could be worse. That Bills stadium is appalling. Imagine nearly a billion in public funds for an open air stadium out in St. John's or up by the airport surrounded by nothing but thousands of parking spaces with no spin off. Also the Bills used Austin, Texas for leverage! If we're going to give a fortune to an NFL or any pro team I want it to be in a walkable environment that can act as a springboard for further development and also benefit existing business, and I think Lamping and Khan get that.
Pick your poison. I want to be a pro town but I also want more than to just gift a team money for 10-12 dates per year.
Also on a side issue, I actually have no problem with games temporarily being played in Gainesville or Tallahassee. The team needs to become a regional attraction and that in turn will entice more visitors.
I'd like to see the case studies made for cities like St. Louis or Oakland compared to how those cities are fairing economically today. I bet the expectation didn't equate to the actual outcome.
I'd like to see the cost penalty for the "start-stop" construction option that allows the Jags, FL/GA, and the Gator Bowl, to play by stopping construction during football season. I'm sure it is steep, if it is even possible, given the extensive changes proposed.
Also, I haven't read every article about the upgrades, but I keep seeing "irrigation and electrical" but nothing about plumbing. It seems there have been chronic problems with this bit of the infrastructure.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 07, 2023, 10:28:36 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on June 07, 2023, 09:50:19 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 07, 2023, 08:24:48 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 06, 2023, 10:42:32 PM
I'm interested to learn more about the potential of a community benefits agreement for the Eastside and plans for equitable economic development opportunities north of the expressway.
And for the love of God, take that barbell development nonsense out back and kill it for good. There's a good amount of development happening in the core of the Northbank now. It's not reliant on what takes place in the Eastside (i.e. Sports District). Nevertheless, no one is really going to complain about better using underutilized surface parking lots around the stadium. Hopefully, COJ sells the land around the stadium, so that the development ends up on the tax rolls.
As soon as property values hit near Springfield levels (aka new construction is profitable) the Eastside should be able to revitalize fairly quickly given the of it size and how it is platted. Interesting to see how that is handled of course given the significant % of renters living here.
That last part I couldn't agree more. Didn't realize how much land COJ has even behind the JAGS stadium too. This is probably the time to let that go.. there is also a block size assemblage for sale one block from the JAGS stadium right now.. could be a DORO part 2. Lots of good RE activity going on here.. need to make sure locals aren't taken advantage of and displaced.
New residential construction has been happening on the Eastside for several years now.
My industry doesn't compare public-private partnerships to private enterprise. Just like the projects DT that have been going on for "decades."
Please tell me how you build new construction SFH's on the Eastside for profit? I'd love to hear.
I've worked in 'your industry' for more than two decades. JWB has built and is currently building new for-profit SFH in the Eastside neighborhood.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 07, 2023, 06:46:56 PM
^Love Nate, but disagree with the premise that Shad Khan is playing hardball with Jacksonville.
Playing hardball would have involved asking for a brand new stadium under threat of relocation.
The Jags proactively recommended a major renovation of the existing facility.
The price tag to add a plethora of improvements to a city-owned facility that are genuinely needed - protection from the elements, heat reduction during early season months, wider concourses, resiliency measures, replacement of irrigation and electrical systems, etc - is $1.3 to $1.4 billion.
Bills stadium is $1.6 billion. Vegas is $2 billion. Nashville is $2.1 billion. Sofi was $5 billion.
Seems like a fairly good price tag for the stadium all things considered.
In terms of fleecing the taxpayer, I don't know if there's a city in the league that's put as little true public money (e.g. not bed taxes or facility fees/ticket surcharges) into their NFL franchise over the last 30 years as Jacksonville has. There are teams who will have built two brand new stadiums by the time ours potentially opens.
Would be it great if Shad Khan altruistically funded the entire project out of pocket? Of course. And yes, other owners have done so, but it hasn't been out of altruism. It's because those stadiums are in major top-10 markets on tap for Olympics, Super Bowls, major annual college football games, World Cup matches, and the biggest touring acts in the country. Jacksonville ain't Los Angeles or New York, where the stadium is going to be a cash cow for a private owner outside of the football season.
But it's just not realistic to want to remain an NFL city, but scoff at the idea of putting significant public investment behind your stadium and ancillary development that generates local revenue 365 days a year. It's the new norm in the NFL, for better or worse, and Jax isn't being singled out or mistreated any more than any other market. Like I said, we've probably gotten it better than many.
If you want to argue that we shouldn't be putting any public money into professional sports and should just let the Jags walk, that's a different argument that may have validity for many. And if you want to argue that no economic impact study has shown a positive ROI for pro sports, I think we're missing the entire quality of life element of these facilities and events dating all the way back to the Roman Empire. It's as much about creating a place where people want to live and stay as it is turning a profit on paper.
Sucks that Jacksonville won't be eligible for the same state funds as other markets, but that doesn't change the price tag. Also sucks that we have other underfunded needs as well, but as city, we can't expect to have both rock bottom taxes and nice things.
I don't even mind the London game if it's capped at one. We've got an extra home game every other year now anyway, it's become a bit of a tradition, it drives a lot of local revenue for the team that would otherwise manifest itself in higher ticket prices for local games, and - assuming our city leaders were able to capitalize on the synergy between the two cities beyond over-subsidizing a relocation that would have happened regardless - it is a great opportunity.
We had to know this day was coming. The overall city price tag is in line with what we should have expected if we read the room in other markets, and even the adjacent development is genuinely needed to complement other investment we've already made with the Four Seasons, MOSH, Shipyards West, Orleck, Baseball Grounds, etc.
Can't have our cake and eat it too.
A billion or slightly below to keep the team here through 2050+, massive improve the stadium experience, lure more events, stand up complementary entertainment at the sports complex, ain't a bad deal at ALL.
Totally agree here!
I am going to play devil's advocate for a moment.
Not every citizen in Jax is convinced we need the Jags at any price or, some, even at all. Like anything, there are winners and losers with these issues. If you are not a diehard fan (and, for some, maybe if you are) and live in a part of town that has been denied decent services for decades or value more other quality of life issues, such as parks, culture, libraries, more public safety, better streets, sidewalks, bike paths and drainage, water and sewer services, etc., you may be a counterweight to many of the Jags positive comments here.
One could also argue the Jags are in Jax because the NFL recognized Jax as an up and coming city of the future (plus a sweetheart deal from the City) as opposed to the Jags bringing that growth to Jax. Just as Austin, Las Vegas, Nashville, Orlando, Salt Lake City, Portland and Charlotte were expanding/booming before, or without, an NFL team. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? We will probably never know for sure.
I am just saying this is not a black and white issue for our community as a whole and, politically, the Jags need to recognize that and accept that any mayor is limited to how far they can give in to the demands being made.
I also think the mayor needs to insure the Jags deliver what they are promising and don't water it down like Daily's Place or other projects have been. If the City pays top dollar it needs to insure world class value in return, no ifs, ands, or buts. Many of us are tired of Jax getting second class projects that don't stand the test of time or mark us as a distinctive location.
Lastly, many think the surrounding counties, particularly St. Johns and Nassau, should contribute to the cause as many Jags fans reside in those counties and their hotels greatly benefit from games in Jax. This should definitely be explored as probably 35 to 40% of the area population lives outside of Duval and, proportionately, maybe even a higher percentage of fans that attend the games.
QuoteLastly, many think the surrounding counties, particularly St. Johns and Nassau, should contribute to the cause as many Jags fans reside in those counties and their hotels greatly benefit from games in Jax.
This "many" must 100% live in Duval.
Quote from: fieldafm on June 07, 2023, 07:26:40 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 07, 2023, 10:28:36 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on June 07, 2023, 09:50:19 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 07, 2023, 08:24:48 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 06, 2023, 10:42:32 PM
I'm interested to learn more about the potential of a community benefits agreement for the Eastside and plans for equitable economic development opportunities north of the expressway.
And for the love of God, take that barbell development nonsense out back and kill it for good. There's a good amount of development happening in the core of the Northbank now. It's not reliant on what takes place in the Eastside (i.e. Sports District). Nevertheless, no one is really going to complain about better using underutilized surface parking lots around the stadium. Hopefully, COJ sells the land around the stadium, so that the development ends up on the tax rolls.
As soon as property values hit near Springfield levels (aka new construction is profitable) the Eastside should be able to revitalize fairly quickly given the of it size and how it is platted. Interesting to see how that is handled of course given the significant % of renters living here.
That last part I couldn't agree more. Didn't realize how much land COJ has even behind the JAGS stadium too. This is probably the time to let that go.. there is also a block size assemblage for sale one block from the JAGS stadium right now.. could be a DORO part 2. Lots of good RE activity going on here.. need to make sure locals aren't taken advantage of and displaced.
New residential construction has been happening on the Eastside for several years now.
My industry doesn't compare public-private partnerships to private enterprise. Just like the projects DT that have been going on for "decades."
Please tell me how you build new construction SFH's on the Eastside for profit? I'd love to hear.
I've worked in 'your industry' for more than two decades. JWB has built and is currently building new for-profit SFH in the Eastside neighborhood.
Who do you think has built a ton of homes for JWB? Lol.. And yeah 2-3 homes sold over the past 5 years really demonstrates the neighborhood can be built "for-profit." Maybe look into it a little bit more, before spouting a pretty hefty claim. The irony.. Mixon Town has 10x the New Construction the Eastside has.. oh and all for-profit. Maybe also understand that the economics JWB (aka American Classic Homes in many cases) can bring to the table is not anywhere near the economics 99.9% of builders can do locally. You'd understand that concept if you were in the biz. JWB has built a business around vertical integration and that's a great business model.
Also please provide resources for your claims on the "positive" economic impact the Jags leaving will have on Jacksonville relative to the $1B price tag... and the local economy while we're at it? You also seem to be an expert on economics too. I haven't seen a single study made for it in the last several years. I don't make claims on here about social issues, mainly because I lack the expertise to comment on them locally. It's hard being an expert in everything Field... Imagine all that new construction that would halt on the Eastside if they moved!
P.S. Hats off to LISC, hats off to the Eastside community leaders. They are getting the ball rolling and in a few years the Eastside SHOULD be a great community. PHX I hope is next.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 07, 2023, 06:46:56 PM
^Love Nate, but disagree with the premise that Shad Khan is playing hardball with Jacksonville.
Playing hardball would have involved asking for a brand new stadium under threat of relocation.
The Jags proactively recommended a major renovation of the existing facility.
The price tag to add a plethora of improvements to a city-owned facility that are genuinely needed - protection from the elements, heat reduction during early season months, wider concourses, resiliency measures, replacement of irrigation and electrical systems, etc - is $1.3 to $1.4 billion.
Bills stadium is $1.6 billion. Vegas is $2 billion. Nashville is $2.1 billion. Sofi was $5 billion.
This. What people forget is that all stadium deals and stadium leases have to get approved by 75% of NFL owners. The owners are the ones putting pressure on the team to get a favorable deal. In an act of good faith, Shad is trying to make it up to the city by agreeing to build other properties around the stadium at significant cost. He doesn't have to do that. Shad's doing what he can to make this palatable to the city, so hopefully the city plays ball.
Hefty price tag but a 50/50 split seems pretty reasonable. Will Kahn pay for overruns? This is the price we pay for NFL franchises...
It seems like a fair deal so long as the numbers provided are honest. If the surrounding area details mirror the earlier Lot J deal, suggesting costs of $1 million per hotel room et al, then we're back to the very same argument we had before. I'd like to think Khan and Lamping learned their lesson on transparency there. Lot J would have passed if the breadbox loan was eliminated, which would have resulted in about a 36/64 split between the city and the Jags. The 14/86 split proposed here is clearly an effort to soften the blow of the stadium ask.
The Jags don't need to threaten to leave, and they know it. We committed ourselves to this kind of project the day we brought an NFL franchise to town. If we can't or are unwilling to afford the upkeep on our fancy toy, then we must be willing to part with it -- but it won't be because Khan has offered up a raw deal in this case.
I'll say this much, I think your average Jaxson (even one skeptical of funding the stadium) will find it easier to support this project than moving the jail and retrofitting the Skyway.
The stadium is getting a roof to block the direct sunlight onto the stands. Then there is this feature:
Quote
The façade will raise at the northern and southern ends to promote airflow inside the stadium.
From Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timnewcomb/2023/06/08/design-direction-behind-jacksonville-jaguars-stadium-of-the-future/?sh=40bd82482c12
A couple of questions
1. Are there prevailing breezes that will flow through these openings to provide relief? My experience is that summer air in Jacksonville is pretty darn still - unless there is a thunderstorm.
2. Does this mean an AC system will be installed to cool the entire volume under the roof? Or are they relying on the non-existent breezes to provide cooling airflow? Who pays the electric bill to cool all that volume?
^ Trying to AC an open air stadium might cost more than the stadium ;D No way they can AC what will still amount to the great outdoors sans sun. The best they could do is have giant fans, maybe powered by jet engines. LOL.
I think they are counting on breezes resulting from being along side the river. Their biggest nightmare with this concept is a still summer night with a low of 85+ degrees at midnight and near 100% humidity. Nothing will make you feel good with that. I remember being at a Jumbo Shrimp game with such weather and it wasn't too fun.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 08, 2023, 05:11:22 PM
The stadium is getting a roof to block the direct sunlight onto the stands. Then there is this feature:
Quote
The façade will raise at the northern and southern ends to promote airflow inside the stadium.
From Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timnewcomb/2023/06/08/design-direction-behind-jacksonville-jaguars-stadium-of-the-future/?sh=40bd82482c12
A couple of questions
1. Are there prevailing breezes that will flow through these openings to provide relief? My experience is that summer air in Jacksonville is pretty darn still - unless there is a thunderstorm.
2. Does this mean an AC system will be installed to cool the entire volume under the roof? Or are they relying on the non-existent breezes to provide cooling airflow? Who pays the electric bill to cool all that volume?
Unsure on the first point, but as to the second, no a/c per the TU article:
QuoteThe most obvious difference is the addition of a roof that would protect fans from scorching sun in early-season games as well as rainstorms throughout the year. Broeder compared the "roof membrane" to the finish on sunglasses in how it will disperse sunlight throughout the interior of the stadium. It would be a fixed roof, not a roof that can be opened and closed.
The exterior of the stadium would be wrapped by a "first-of-its-kind mirrored material" that will provide an energy-efficient facade, according to the Jaguars. The stadium would not have air conditioning, but the material used in constructing the building would cut heat retention by 70% and lower temperatures by 10 to 15 degrees.
The reconstruction of the stadium also would open four corners of the building to create breezeways so more air can circulate through the stadium. Broeder said the construction will remove a large amount of the seating bowl "in a surgical fashion" for those four breezeways.
"We're going to be protecting from the sun and from the rain, but we're going to be maximizing air flow throughout the building," Broeder said.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/06/07/jacksonville-jaguars-show-plan-for-stadium-with-shade-cover/70296829007/ (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/06/07/jacksonville-jaguars-show-plan-for-stadium-with-shade-cover/70296829007/)
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 08, 2023, 05:41:33 PM
^ Trying to AC an open air stadium might cost more than the stadium ;D No way they can AC what will still amount to the great outdoors sans sun. The best they could do is have giant fans, maybe powered by jet engines. LOL.
I think they are counting on breezes resulting from being along side the river. Their biggest nightmare with this concept is a still summer night with a low of 85+ degrees at midnight and near 100% humidity. Nothing will make you feel good with that. I remember being at a Jumbo Shrimp game with such weather and it wasn't too fun.
That's why we don't go to events at Daily's Place in the warm months - that place is an oven, even at nighttime concerts. No airflow at all.
First Coast News is right next to the stadium. I am sure they have an onsite weather station. Surely, they have daily records of the winds and temperatures during the August to October (November?) months the last few years.
^ I recall they said they are trying to mimic SOFI stadium in LA but LA doesn't have our weather so not sure this is as good an idea here as it is there. Seems most newer southern stadiums are fully enclosed and air conditioned but haven't tallied them up. Maybe someone can take the time to do so.
Looks like there are other design differences between the Jags plan and SOFI plus SOFI benefits from cooler winds from the Pacific Ocean (not the warmer St. Johns River ;D ) per below. And, SOFI is about 100 feet into the ground so that may further help regulate temps.
QuoteThe design keeps fans cool
Which is a good thing, because the day's forecast for Inglewood is expected to produce the hottest Super Bowl on record. The roof of SoFi Stadium is open on three sides, allowing for a cooling breeze to flow through, courtesy of the Pacific Ocean, which is about 5 miles away.
The stadium's designers say the roof is "monumental" in other ways.
"We wanted this stadium to be a completely outdoor venue," Lance Evans, principal and senior designer at HKS, says in this video. "We want it to feel like you were embraced and enveloped in Southern California, but we knew we wanted to provide protection for all the kind of adverse climatic conditions that could happen."
That means the roof is made of panels that can slide open and closed based on conditions. The movement helps regulate temperature in the facility in a sustainable way, Evans notes.
https://www.wvxu.org/sports/2022-02-10/fun-facts-about-sofi-stadium-inglewood-california-super-bowl
Might be an unpopular opinion, but considering our citywide reluctance to raise taxes, and given our desire to:
- Build a world-class stadium tied to a long-term lease extension for the Jags
- Fulfill promises to underserved neighborhoods dating back to consolidation
- Move the prison out of downtown
- Build a convention center
- Stand-up a world class urban park system
- Reduce crime
- Shore up long-term pension liability
- Improve local infrastructure
The least painful, most plausible path forward may still be a sale of JEA.
Lots of drawbacks, don't get me wrong, but assuming we could still land a similar deal to the one proposed during the botched privatization a few years back, it's probably our best chance to dramatically push the city forward in an equitable way, pay off our existing municipal debt, and fund these major projects pay-go to save hundreds of millions - if not billions - in interest. With the least pain possible for the average citizen.
Funding through a JEA sale also passes some of the burden onto surrounding counties as well, rather than funding coming primarily from the Duval County tax base.
It's a shame the well has been so badly poisoned by Curry and Co. when it comes to this topic.
There's not a great alternate path to rock bottom taxes and nice, modern things for all.
If you bind it to a compelling list of uses, including setting aside a few billion in reserve to generate enough interest to offset losses to the general fund that typically come from JEA, I bet it's got a better chance of getting a yes-vote in a city wide referendum than a true tax increase.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 08, 2023, 09:25:02 AM
In an act of good faith, Shad is trying to make it up to the city by agreeing to build other properties around the stadium at significant cost. He doesn't have to do that.
Question - does Shad get the land for free? Who gets the revenues/profits from those properties?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 09, 2023, 10:44:36 AM
Might be an unpopular opinion, but considering our citywide reluctance to raise taxes, and given our desire to:
- Build a world-class stadium tied to a long-term lease extension for the Jags
- Fulfill promises to underserved neighborhoods dating back to consolidation
- Move the prison out of downtown
- Build a convention center
- Stand-up a world class urban park system
- Reduce crime
- Shore up long-term pension liability
- Improve local infrastructure
The least painful, most plausible path forward may still be a sale of JEA.
Lots of drawbacks, don't get me wrong, but assuming we could still land a similar deal to the one proposed during the botched privatization a few years back, it's probably our best chance to dramatically push the city forward in an equitable way, pay off our existing municipal debt, and fund these major projects pay-go to save hundreds of millions - if not billions - in interest. With the least pain possible for the average citizen.
Funding through a JEA sale also passes some of the burden onto surrounding counties as well, rather than funding coming primarily from the Duval County tax base.
It's a shame the well has been so badly poisoned by Curry and Co. when it comes to this topic.
There's not a great alternate path to rock bottom taxes and nice, modern things for all.
If you bind it to a compelling list of uses, including setting aside a few billion in reserve to generate enough interest to offset losses to the general fund that typically come from JEA, I bet it's got a better chance of getting a yes-vote in a city wide referendum than a true tax increase.
City leaders haven't been opposed to raising taxes when an effective narrative is used.
Quote from: fsu813 on June 09, 2023, 02:47:02 PM
City leaders haven't been opposed to raising taxes when an effective narrative is used.
This. The citizens and leadership of the City need to decide what is important and worth investing in. No such thing as a free lunch. Our taxes are not the highest so there is some room for an increase. Selling JEA would only be a stop gap measure and most of the items on Ken's list need continuous investment or are depreciating assets so a one-time shot in the arm is not going to sustain such projects forever like the JEA revenue stream does... and then what?
Pay as you go is the best policy. Per the Florida Dept. of Revenue stats, in 2022, Duval had about $90+ billion in taxable value. So a .25 mil increase will generate $22,500,000 (that's today, before increasing property values in the future due to inflation and growth). Bonded at 5% over 30 years, I calculate this will raise about $4.1 billion for capex. That should do nicely addressing many of the wishes of the citizenry for that time period. Double to .5 mil and raise $8.2 billion if we want to be more ambitious.
If worthy, you could bond, say .25 mils and use the other .25 mils for ongoing added expenses.
Every time I get salty that Shad Khan doesn't address the local media and public more frequently, he's handed a live mic and I'm reminded why he shouldn't.
What did he say?
Is this it?
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/sports/nfl/jacksonville-jaguars/are-you-negotiating-city-khan-reacts-question-about-5050-split-jags-stadium-deal/7QAEYND3IFHUBKWPFEE65GBEU4/
Quote
tofan: "How important is that 50/50 split? I mean, is there any wiggle room there in terms of the city?"
Khan: "Are you negotiating for the city?"
Stofan: "No, just asking -- "
Khan: "OK, so, end of question."
LOL....wow!
^ As a citizen, we are each entitled to "negotiate" for our City. Asking Khan the question is fair game just as having the press asking the mayor the same question.
The answer should be "Thank you for the question and I understand your concerns. Our negotiations will be complex as there are a lot of moving parts so it is premature to comment on the final structure of a deal. However, we expect, in the end, we will reach an agreement that will be fair and acceptable to all parties at the table so we can keep the Jags in Jax and build something everyone can be proud of. Next question, please..."
Interesting thread (https://twitter.com/caseyayers/status/1669114327687651329) from Casey Ayers about tonight's huddle. Some highlights:
QuoteLamping also said, "I assume that one of the things the city will want to negotiate is, 'What are your future plans in regard to London?'" He described the value it has offered as he has in the past, but acknowledged that the gap in revenue may be largely addressed in the build.
QuoteA few notes on the roof: the curvature is designed to force air currents in from the river and create flow for hotter air up to the roof. Lots of "that's the theory" to those descriptions, but, well, that's the theory.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FynqPH4WcAEbpN2?format=jpg&name=small)
QuoteThe temporary seating solution is really clever. 1,800 seats hide behind the east and west 400s. I believe those video screens are actually projected, although he only described them as "lightweight and flexible". Another 6k can be flattened into SEZ+NEZ walls like a gymnasium.
COJ spends millions and takes weeks to put up and take down temporary seating for the college games at present. This, combined with all-digital signage for branding, make it pretty rapidly turnkey as a venue at little marginal expense.
I've seen a lot of talk about the concept of getting surrounding counties to help pay for the stadium since so many Jaguars fans reside there and not in Duval, and Lamping was asked (https://twitter.com/caseyayers/status/1669149691320102913?s=20) about it:
QuoteLamping addressed a question about this, with the caveat that he isn't a public official. He mentioned things like a sales surtax in the stadium district or hospitality tax could capture some of this but something more direct requiring a vote would seem unlikely to pass anywhere.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 14, 2023, 08:03:21 PM
LOL....wow!
Mayor-Elect Deegan had a somewhat similar (if softer) response (https://floridapolitics.com/archives/618309-donna-deegan-anticipates-very-productive-jacksonville-jaguars-stadium-negotiation-process/) to a similar question.
Quote"I have had, already, a number of conversations with Shad Khan and with Mark Lamping. (Interim CFO) Mike Weinstein, as I said, has also been in contact with them. We've had good conversations, but look, I'm not even in office yet. These negotiations have not yet begun," Deegan said.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 14, 2023, 10:56:32 PM
I've seen a lot of talk about the concept of getting surrounding counties to help pay for the stadium since so many Jaguars fans reside there and not in Duval, and Lamping was asked (https://twitter.com/caseyayers/status/1669149691320102913?s=20) about it:
QuoteLamping addressed a question about this, with the caveat that he isn't a public official. He mentioned things like a sales surtax in the stadium district or hospitality tax could capture some of this but something more direct requiring a vote would seem unlikely to pass anywhere.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/240015/price-of-a-beer-in-the-national-football-league-by-team/
So instead of $10 beers, it'll be like $15. lol :/
The "air flow issue" is one that's been on my mind since first realizing there will be a full roof. My fear is that, without "air currents" the stadium will become a sauna.
My experience of living in Jacksonville for more than a few decades is that in hot months, the air is pretty stagnant. This includes about five home games (give or take one or two) No prevailing breezes, and the sea breeze doesn't come anywhere near the stadium. Do the stadium designers have any historic weather data for the stadium area to support their air-flow theories? I am willing to be that First Coast News, which is immediately adjacent to the stadium, has data from an onsite weather station going back decades. If only the (new) Mayor's Office had a connection to the weather department at FCN ...
We have stopped going to summer concerts at Daily's Place because it is an oven in the summer heat - and concerts start in the evening and continue into the night. I realize the geometry of Daily's is different from the stadium, in part because the stadium completely blocks the north face of Daily's, and the south side is blocked by the indoor practice field (do, or could, they open those large doors along Bay Street?), but the east-west sides are nearly completely open.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 15, 2023, 08:29:25 AM
The "air flow issue" is one that's been on my mind since first realizing there will be a full roof. My fear is that, without "air currents" the stadium will become a sauna.
My experience of living in Jacksonville for more than a few decades is that in hot months, the air is pretty stagnant. This includes about five home games (give or take one or two) No prevailing breezes, and the sea breeze doesn't come anywhere near the stadium. Do the stadium designers have any historic weather data for the stadium area to support their air-flow theories? I am willing to be that First Coast News, which is immediately adjacent to the stadium, has data from an onsite weather station going back decades. If only the (new) Mayor's Office had a connection to the weather department at FCN ...
We have stopped going to summer concerts at Daily's Place because it is an oven in the summer heat - and concerts start in the evening and continue into the night. I realize the geometry of Daily's is different from the stadium, in part because the stadium completely blocks the north face of Daily's, and the south side is blocked by the indoor practice field (do, or could, they open those large doors along Bay Street?), but the east-west sides are nearly completely open.
I mean, they did think of this. Did they get it right? Who knows - they'd likely have to build it.
That said, this has bene solved before. For example, the Lynch Building and Old Barnett Building are designed as a L and U shaped building, respectively. The idea is it forces air to circulate. It's certainly not air conditioning.
Additionally, the new renderings have seats removed in the corners, and my understanding was that was supposed to help with air flow.
I think we all agree we don't want a repeat of Daily's Place. The fans they added help, but it's still warm.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2023, 07:18:29 PM
Is this it?
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/sports/nfl/jacksonville-jaguars/are-you-negotiating-city-khan-reacts-question-about-5050-split-jags-stadium-deal/7QAEYND3IFHUBKWPFEE65GBEU4/
Quote
tofan: "How important is that 50/50 split? I mean, is there any wiggle room there in terms of the city?"
Khan: "Are you negotiating for the city?"
Stofan: "No, just asking -- "
Khan: "OK, so, end of question."
The same question was asked of Donna Deegan. Her response was slightly more diplomatic, but she was clearly exasperated/annoyed by the question. Not sure who is posing the question, but it seems like they've been doing it for some time and the respondents are not amused.
I don't know if this was ever addressed but have engineers dealt with the issue of condensation building up on the new see-through roof given the desire to hold future NCAA tournament games there? So-Fi stadium has a similar style roof but because of the issue of water building up and potentially dripping down on the basketball court, So-Fi is not even being considered for a Final 4 destination.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 15, 2023, 10:42:48 AM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2023, 07:18:29 PM
Is this it?
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/sports/nfl/jacksonville-jaguars/are-you-negotiating-city-khan-reacts-question-about-5050-split-jags-stadium-deal/7QAEYND3IFHUBKWPFEE65GBEU4/
Quote
tofan: "How important is that 50/50 split? I mean, is there any wiggle room there in terms of the city?"
Khan: "Are you negotiating for the city?"
Stofan: "No, just asking -- "
Khan: "OK, so, end of question."
The same question was asked of Donna Deegan. Her response was slightly more diplomatic, but she was clearly exasperated/annoyed by the question. Not sure who is posing the question, but it seems like they've been doing it for some time and the respondents are not amused.
I noted that earlier. At the end of the day, it does make sense that neither party to these negotiations wants to do that via the press, which as Deegan suggested benefits more from the conflict than from actually coming to a deal. Lot easier to do what will be necessary back-and-forth directly, especially since it seems both sides will have committed negotiators to come to a deal. Doesn't do anyone much good to establish red lines in the press right now.
I played football in my past life (not NFL lol) and my experience is that there is that there are levels to stadium design beyond 99% of people's comprehension besides those who are in the stadium industry. Stadiums every decade have significant improvements, that start at the NFL level and trickle down over time.
Jags stadium being designed in the early 90's makes it one of the oldest in the NFL believe it or not. There have been so many improvements made over the decades that I can think of, I can't imagine how many there actually are. I played in college stadiums that were much better designed to be honest.. You can feel the difference in the field temp and the wind when you are on the field.
I'm pretty confident that this redesign incorporates many of these improvements and they are likely utilizing the shell more than anything. Whatever issues SOFI has will likely be reincarnated with this one. I don't think there's an insane lack of wind with the project either.. when you go that high, wind factors exponentially increase.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2023, 07:18:29 PM
Is this it?
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/sports/nfl/jacksonville-jaguars/are-you-negotiating-city-khan-reacts-question-about-5050-split-jags-stadium-deal/7QAEYND3IFHUBKWPFEE65GBEU4/
Quote
tofan: "How important is that 50/50 split? I mean, is there any wiggle room there in terms of the city?"
Khan: "Are you negotiating for the city?"
Stofan: "No, just asking -- "
Khan: "OK, so, end of question."
If there's any reason for tax payers to take a moment to pause on this whole concept, this was it. The amount of condescension from Khan towards someone who's money Khan wants - aka taxpayer - was appalling. Would love for someone to address Lamping on this at the next public forum.
I'm curious about how the roof would stand up to hurricane force winds. If the stadium is designed to create an updraft it would seem that those panels would become kites in a hurricane. Maybe that's a design feature though. A stadium that can uproot and relocate itself Wizard of Oz style. lol.
I would not be at all surprised to see the roof panels go away as part of matching costs with funding realities. The main need is shade for fans. We can do without a Final 4, and Wrestlemania has been outside many times.
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 19, 2023, 03:30:06 PM
I would not be at all surprised to see the roof panels go away as part of matching costs with funding realities. The main need is shade for fans. We can do without a Final 4, and Wrestlemania has been outside many times.
I'm also not sure a Final Four would ever work in what would still be an outdoor stadium. I agree that temps are usually very nice in Early April here, and while the roof would certainly cover for rain it's still an outdoor facility.
That said, if the structure is needed anyway for the roof over the seats are you materially saving money there (Aside from hurricane issues)?
I am guessing the roof (1) is needed to prevent blowing/swirling winds in the stadium, some of which might carry rain in a storm to all the fans in seats, (2) is a factor in directing the crosswinds that are supposed to "cool" the stadium and (3) will be engineered to withstand a hurricane, probably a building code requirement regardless of costs.
It is just too obvious that #3 above is a minimum requirement for a roof nowadays, regardless of what is under it, to not design for that. Now, the question is how reliable will the engineering be in the real world. Let's hope we never have to find out :).
I might add that for some $1 billion of taxpayer's dollars, the Jags better not skimp and deliver on a world class stadium experience as promised. Removing the indicated/promised roof will offer negative optics in this regard possibly crimping fan support.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 19, 2023, 10:05:31 PM
I might add that for some $1 billion of taxpayer's dollars, the Jags better not skimp and deliver on a world class stadium experience as promised. Removing the indicated/promised roof will offer negative optics in this regard possibly crimping fan support.
100% here. Unless the bill goes down dramatically, there better not be a repeat of Daily's Place.
Realize I'm in the minority here, but I still contend that what we ended up with at Daily's Place was better, smarter, and more functional than what was originally proposed.
The original renderings were shinier, but they were ultimately just a private practice field for the Jags inside of a glass bubble, and an open lawn amphitheater covered with a wavy top.
(https://www.jacksonville.com/gcdn/authoring/2016/08/23/NFTU/ghows-LK-387165f3-708d-46d1-860a-9cd70cba9248-d7077827.jpeg)
(https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-gmg.s3.amazonaws.com/public/W4LURXC3FFHQBOKFA4FFMD4RCE.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7h3q4jfQ/Screen-Shot-2023-06-20-at-12-09-09-PM.png)
Daily's Place, heat aside, has legitimately great sight lines from every single seat in the house, integrates the practice field and amphitheater into the stadium for game day (and has cool views of the football field from Daily's Place), and pops on TV with the LED roof.
It's different than the initial design, yes, but for the public, it's a better end result, in my opinion.
(https://www.dailysplace.com/assets/img/DailysPlace_03-90d8799226.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DA4VdhGUMAAlw8Q.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5qX5JxF/118764503-1700966463398996-458742442213083241-n.jpg)
For some reason people always seem to forget about the intermediate renderings of Daily's Place that were shaped like what we got but with much more visual appeal:
(https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/5976239/Jax_rendering_0001_Jags-Amp-Renderings2B.0.jpg)
(https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/5976235/Jax_rendering_0003_Jags-Amp-Renderings1B.0.jpg)
(https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/5976237/Jax_rendering_0002_Jags-Amp-Renderings2.0.jpg)
This without the value engineering would have been great.
^I could be mistaken, but I think the pedestrian bridge was always positioned as a future Phase 2 addition to connect the sports district to Met Park over Bay Street.
I'm hoping when the City takes control over the flex field, the hanger doors are kept open more frequently.
The whole building looks so much better from street level when it's opened up.
Some additional details from today's huddle, via this thread (https://twitter.com/Demetrius82/status/1671170753050603520?s=20).
Congratulations Developer, here's (https://twitter.com/Demetrius82/status/1671183219264307200?s=20) your jail mention.
Comparison to Nashville's plans:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzE8vUhXgAQoteP?format=jpg&name=large)
Overall phasing plan:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzE9SBMXwAQJklB?format=jpg&name=large)
Stadium project timeline:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzE9cFvWIAAC3uY?format=jpg&name=large)
A "food district" concept for stadium dining:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzFGJJaXsAILs4k?format=jpg&name=large)
Really bad picture because it's lifted from a video but this is the comparison on what other stadiums are doing:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/1120795390850105364/Screenshot_2023-06-20_at_3.20.31_PM.png?width=1025&height=493)
A few other notes:
- Lamping notes they intentionally avoided endorsing or donating to any mayoral candidates to avoid a conflict, but have spoken to Mayor-elect Deegan twice since the election.
- Lamping says if the hotel is not a Four Seasons he will resign.
- The Jaguars are not interested in buying the stadium from the city.
- They hope to provide "market priced" food inside the stadium.
Quote from: Steve on June 20, 2023, 08:26:30 AM
100% here. Unless the bill goes down dramatically, there better not be a repeat of Daily's Place.
that's likely to happen anyway
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 20, 2023, 03:27:41 PM
Some additional details from today's huddle, via this thread (https://twitter.com/Demetrius82/status/1671170753050603520?s=20).
Congratulations Developer, here's (https://twitter.com/Demetrius82/status/1671183219264307200?s=20) your jail mention.
Comparison to Nashville's plans:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzE8vUhXgAQoteP?format=jpg&name=large)
Overall phasing plan:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzE9SBMXwAQJklB?format=jpg&name=large)
Stadium project timeline:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzE9cFvWIAAC3uY?format=jpg&name=large)
A "food district" concept for stadium dining:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzFGJJaXsAILs4k?format=jpg&name=large)
Really bad picture because it's lifted from a video but this is the comparison on what other stadiums are doing:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/1120795390850105364/Screenshot_2023-06-20_at_3.20.31_PM.png?width=1025&height=493)
A few other notes:
- Lamping notes they intentionally avoided endorsing or donating to any mayoral candidates to avoid a conflict, but have spoken to Mayor-elect Deegan twice since the election.
- Lamping says if the hotel is not a Four Seasons he will resign.
- The Jaguars are not interested in buying the stadium from the city.
- They hope to provide "market priced" food inside the stadium.
Lol, yay. I just think you gotta go all-in and connect the two hubs. Jacksonville could have luxury waterfront in its downtown.. which sounds like crazy talk with today's scene. Makes these other massive investments more worthwhile in the long run in my opinion.. but will hurt the checkbooks now.
What exactly is urban food?
No argument with Lamping's comment about walking a mile between downtown and the stadium district, which took out an adjacent neighborhood unrelated to downtown altogether. I'm really interested to see a site plan of the proposed mixed-use district surrounding the stadium. I eagerly await to see how A. Philip Randolph is treated. Hopefully, it is treated as a central element and front door to the district, as opposed to a back door.
If the Jag's bought the stadium, they might lose all those "hidden" taxpayer subsidies for maintenance, paying rent below a mortgage payment, the City's favorable tax-free bonding, depreciation, etc. More importantly, if the Jags owned the stadium, they would have to pay huge property taxes (10's of millions) that don't get paid now.
Lastly, it would surely make it very difficult to relocate the franchise, even in 30 more years, as the team would have to continually maintain the stadium in first class condition and then be stuck with a white elephant if they moved away.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2023, 06:10:44 PM
What exactly is urban food?
And where does pizza get categorized?
Is it urban or international?
These are questions we need answered.
The walk down Bay St is fine other than the fact there's nothing there of interest for half a mile between Liberty and APR. Monroe/Adams is a shit show though between the jail and Sulzbacher. Duval is practically an elevated expressway. If the city really wants to connect DT to the Sports District they need to start by getting those stupid ramps out of the way once Sulzbacher moves and fix the street grid through there. Then do something with Hogan's creek restoration.
Quote from: fsu813 on June 20, 2023, 10:46:54 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2023, 06:10:44 PM
What exactly is urban food?
And where does pizza get categorized?
Is it urban or international?
These are questions we need answered.
Urban...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 22, 2023, 10:31:21 AM
Quote from: fsu813 on June 20, 2023, 10:46:54 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2023, 06:10:44 PM
What exactly is urban food?
And where does pizza get categorized?
Is it urban or international?
These are questions we need answered.
Urban...
As in anything Urban Meyer might favor. LOL. Of course, that could be distasteful to the rest of us. Jags should have picked another term, it would appear, given the history here ;D.
Quote from: acme54321 on June 20, 2023, 11:10:37 PM
The walk down Bay St is fine other than the fact there's nothing there of interest for half a mile between Liberty and APR. Monroe/Adams is a shit show though between the jail and Sulzbacher. Duval is practically an elevated expressway. If the city really wants to connect DT to the Sports District they need to start by getting those stupid ramps out of the way once Sulzbacher moves and fix the street grid through there. Then do something with Hogan's creek restoration.
It's always going to be nuts that they decided to ramp the expressway to street level instead of just tearing it down and trucking it away. Surely the money they spent rebuilding that part could have paid to demolish the rest.
I wonder, are we federally committed to that structure now, like we are with the Skyway?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 22, 2023, 04:25:18 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on June 20, 2023, 11:10:37 PM
The walk down Bay St is fine other than the fact there's nothing there of interest for half a mile between Liberty and APR. Monroe/Adams is a shit show though between the jail and Sulzbacher. Duval is practically an elevated expressway. If the city really wants to connect DT to the Sports District they need to start by getting those stupid ramps out of the way once Sulzbacher moves and fix the street grid through there. Then do something with Hogan's creek restoration.
It's always going to be nuts that they decided to ramp the expressway to street level instead of just tearing it down and trucking it away. Surely the money they spent rebuilding that part could have paid to demolish the rest.
I wonder, are we federally committed to that structure now, like we are with the Skyway?
No, it just would be more cost - and I bet materially more cost because of the proximity to buildings and such. That said it's a dumb ramp.
That parking lot behind Maxwell House is an old railyard. It's probably more contamination they didn't want to deal with.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 22, 2023, 04:25:18 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on June 20, 2023, 11:10:37 PM
The walk down Bay St is fine other than the fact there's nothing there of interest for half a mile between Liberty and APR. Monroe/Adams is a shit show though between the jail and Sulzbacher. Duval is practically an elevated expressway. If the city really wants to connect DT to the Sports District they need to start by getting those stupid ramps out of the way once Sulzbacher moves and fix the street grid through there. Then do something with Hogan's creek restoration.
It's always going to be nuts that they decided to ramp the expressway to street level instead of just tearing it down and trucking it away. Surely the money they spent rebuilding that part could have paid to demolish the rest.
I wonder, are we federally committed to that structure now, like we are with the Skyway?
SR-228 over the Hart Bridge is apart of the National Highway System so I would bet that severing that connection in anyway to DT is likely against "the rules" somewhere.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 22, 2023, 05:18:52 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 22, 2023, 04:25:18 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on June 20, 2023, 11:10:37 PM
The walk down Bay St is fine other than the fact there's nothing there of interest for half a mile between Liberty and APR. Monroe/Adams is a shit show though between the jail and Sulzbacher. Duval is practically an elevated expressway. If the city really wants to connect DT to the Sports District they need to start by getting those stupid ramps out of the way once Sulzbacher moves and fix the street grid through there. Then do something with Hogan's creek restoration.
It's always going to be nuts that they decided to ramp the expressway to street level instead of just tearing it down and trucking it away. Surely the money they spent rebuilding that part could have paid to demolish the rest.
I wonder, are we federally committed to that structure now, like we are with the Skyway?
SR-228 over the Hart Bridge is apart of the National Highway System so I would bet that severing that connection in anyway to DT is likely against "the rules" somewhere.
When FDOT removed the elevated portion between A Philip Randolf and the Hart Bridge, the (probably) designated that stretch of Bay Street (formerly Gator Bowl Blvd.) as SR 228. There's no reason, if all the remaining elevated ramps were removed, they couldn't redesignate the appropriate surface streets to keep the connection.
Forsyth Street already carries SR 228 between Main and Liberty. Add Liberty between Forsyth and Bay, then Bay Street to join existing SR 228 on Bay at APR.
Coming off the Hart Bridge, stay on Bay Street to Ocean, and add the two blocks of Ocean between Bay and Adams, joining existing NB SR 228 on Ocean. Remove SR 228 from Adam, between Liberty (Hart Ramps) and Ocean.
There's some paperwork for FDOT to complete, and maybe a public hearing (although that might only apply to US numbered routes.
About a decade ago, FDOT removed US 17 / SR 228 from College and Post, from Riverside Ave. through Brooklyn, and Water Street, and moved them up to I-10 and I-95, then to the State/Union pair.
I think thelakelander's is correct about concerns over the potential for industrial contamination at the bases of all those bridge piers holding up the overpasses. I am surprised this wasn't a problem for the stretch along Bay Street.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 22, 2023, 09:30:12 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 22, 2023, 05:18:52 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 22, 2023, 04:25:18 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on June 20, 2023, 11:10:37 PM
The walk down Bay St is fine other than the fact there's nothing there of interest for half a mile between Liberty and APR. Monroe/Adams is a shit show though between the jail and Sulzbacher. Duval is practically an elevated expressway. If the city really wants to connect DT to the Sports District they need to start by getting those stupid ramps out of the way once Sulzbacher moves and fix the street grid through there. Then do something with Hogan's creek restoration.
It's always going to be nuts that they decided to ramp the expressway to street level instead of just tearing it down and trucking it away. Surely the money they spent rebuilding that part could have paid to demolish the rest.
I wonder, are we federally committed to that structure now, like we are with the Skyway?
SR-228 over the Hart Bridge is apart of the National Highway System so I would bet that severing that connection in anyway to DT is likely against "the rules" somewhere.
When FDOT removed the elevated portion between A Philip Randolf and the Hart Bridge, the (probably) designated that stretch of Bay Street (formerly Gator Bowl Blvd.) as SR 228. There's no reason, if all the remaining elevated ramps were removed, they couldn't redesignate the appropriate surface streets to keep the connection.
Forsyth Street already carries SR 228 between Main and Liberty. Add Liberty between Forsyth and Bay, then Bay Street to join existing SR 228 on Bay at APR.
Coming off the Hart Bridge, stay on Bay Street to Ocean, and add the two blocks of Ocean between Bay and Adams, joining existing NB SR 228 on Ocean. Remove SR 228 from Adam, between Liberty (Hart Ramps) and Ocean.
There's some paperwork for FDOT to complete, and maybe a public hearing (although that might only apply to US numbered routes.
About a decade ago, FDOT removed US 17 / SR 228 from College and Post, from Riverside Ave. through Brooklyn, and Water Street, and moved them up to I-10 and I-95, then to the State/Union pair.
I think thelakelander's is correct about concerns over the potential for industrial contamination at the bases of all those bridge piers holding up the overpasses. I am surprised this wasn't a problem for the stretch along Bay Street.
Are there not portions of that overpass that would just be rebuilt as another overpass given it goes over the creek, an underpass and some private property? I'm saying you can't sever the connection SR-228 has with DT from Gator Bowl Blvd & the Hart Bridge. Bay St. wouldn't qualify more than likely. Road width/use & the current overpass now restricting its height. Or are you saying abandon that ROW? Just trying to follow.
You can always do a jurisdictional transfer, if COJ and FDOT would agree.
My scenario is based on removing all of the Hart elevated ramps between Liberty Street and A. Philip Randolph - including the newly built structure at Bay and APR - and moving the SR-228 designation to the appropriate surface streets. I don't see why Bay Street wouldn't qualify to be a state road. Many streets in Jacksonville have lower capacity and design standards than Bay Street, either in its present configuration or the modifications that may come with the U2C project.
Once the Sulzbacher Center moves out to Golfair, it may be possible to connect Monroe Street across Hogan Creek - while giving consideration to the needs of the Emerald Necklace and McCoys Creek daylighting projects. This would improve connectivity between the Downtown Core and the Sports and Entertainment District.
The big question would be who would pay for removing approximately 9000 feet (~1.7 miles) of elevated roadway? This would not be cheap, especially considering the active uses adjacent to, and beneath, the structures, and the potential soil contamination issues.
Quote from: Steve on June 22, 2023, 04:27:47 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 22, 2023, 04:25:18 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on June 20, 2023, 11:10:37 PM
The walk down Bay St is fine other than the fact there's nothing there of interest for half a mile between Liberty and APR. Monroe/Adams is a shit show though between the jail and Sulzbacher. Duval is practically an elevated expressway. If the city really wants to connect DT to the Sports District they need to start by getting those stupid ramps out of the way once Sulzbacher moves and fix the street grid through there. Then do something with Hogan's creek restoration.
It's always going to be nuts that they decided to ramp the expressway to street level instead of just tearing it down and trucking it away. Surely the money they spent rebuilding that part could have paid to demolish the rest.
I wonder, are we federally committed to that structure now, like we are with the Skyway?
No, it just would be more cost - and I bet materially more cost because of the proximity to buildings and such. That said it's a dumb ramp.
Yeah, I get why they didn't do it then. Once Sulzbacher is gone though that changes.
Remove the ramps and put the blocks where they land back on the tax rolls. Realign Monroe. Convert the low lying areas along Hogan's green into park space witht he emerald trail.
Then there is the whole Jail/Communinty Transiston Center...
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 23, 2023, 09:12:18 AM
My scenario is based on removing all of the Hart elevated ramps between Liberty Street and A. Philip Randolph - including the newly built structure at Bay and APR - and moving the SR-228 designation to the appropriate surface streets. I don't see why Bay Street wouldn't qualify to be a state road. Many streets in Jacksonville have lower capacity and design standards than Bay Street, either in its present configuration or the modifications that may come with the U2C project.
Once the Sulzbacher Center moves out to Golfair, it may be possible to connect Monroe Street across Hogan Creek - while giving consideration to the needs of the Emerald Necklace and McCoys Creek daylighting projects. This would improve connectivity between the Downtown Core and the Sports and Entertainment District.
The big question would be who would pay for removing approximately 9000 feet (~1.7 miles) of elevated roadway? This would not be cheap, especially considering the active uses adjacent to, and beneath, the structures, and the potential soil contamination issues.
Oh I see. That's actually why I think it might not work, maybe they could re-assign the designation elsewhere. The National Highway System requires some obscure standards for national defense transit, which I don't really understand but I know exist.
The chokepoint of it all going to Bay St is what likely disqualifies this option given the capacity I would bet. Currently Gator Bowl is fed by several roads that share the designation depending on the direction of traffic. Eliminating that all together would I think would require additional time & effort is all I'm saying. Definitely possible, but you likely need to find another way of accessing Hart Bridge with a similar throughput.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on June 23, 2023, 12:33:27 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 23, 2023, 09:12:18 AM
My scenario is based on removing all of the Hart elevated ramps between Liberty Street and A. Philip Randolph - including the newly built structure at Bay and APR - and moving the SR-228 designation to the appropriate surface streets. I don't see why Bay Street wouldn't qualify to be a state road. Many streets in Jacksonville have lower capacity and design standards than Bay Street, either in its present configuration or the modifications that may come with the U2C project.
Once the Sulzbacher Center moves out to Golfair, it may be possible to connect Monroe Street across Hogan Creek - while giving consideration to the needs of the Emerald Necklace and McCoys Creek daylighting projects. This would improve connectivity between the Downtown Core and the Sports and Entertainment District.
The big question would be who would pay for removing approximately 9000 feet (~1.7 miles) of elevated roadway? This would not be cheap, especially considering the active uses adjacent to, and beneath, the structures, and the potential soil contamination issues.
Oh I see. That's actually why I think it might not work, maybe they could re-assign the designation elsewhere. The National Highway System requires some obscure standards for national defense transit, which I don't really understand but I know exist.
Charles Hunter is very very familiar! Moreso than anyone else on this board!
Stadium name being changed back to Everbank. Will be interesting to see how fast FDOT changes their exit signs.... seems they get priority over other signs ;D. You can tell who has clout.
Parking could end being a real hidden cost to this whole thing. The proposed plan wipes out a ton of spots. Lamping mentioned the potential need for parking garages and remote parking. I get the vibe that's not included in the price tag.
If there is a parking problem, I'm confident the private sector and market will respond to it. All of that mixed use development will have parking and private Eastside and Talleyrand property owners will benefit as well.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 23, 2023, 05:53:47 PM
Stadium name being changed back to Everbank. Will be interesting to see how fast FDOT changes their exit signs.... seems they get priority over other signs ;D. You can tell who has clout.
Interesting that the Jaguars themselves (https://www.jaguars.com/news/tiaa-bank-to-become-everbank-a-brand-built-on-legacy-partnership-and-forward-loo) seem to be the ones breaking the news on the bank's name change.
I know there has been a lot of convention center talk on here through the years but more fodder for discussion:
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/619360-dave-chauncey-a-game-changing-opportunity-maximizing-jacksonvilles-investments-at-tiaa-bank-field/
Interesting idea.
I'm not saying I totally dislike this, I just don't think it's going to go anywhere. I would not expect any substantial design changes to the stadium itself, just like the Miller Electric Center. Heck, even the Jaguars were more interested in the concept of adding a separate convention facility adjacent to the stadium than making the stadium itself the facility when they had the chance. I don't think that attitude has changed, and I doubt convention organizers are actually all that interested in the hypothetical opportunity enough to demand it instead of a custom facility for their needs.
Worth noting too that Lori Boyer has said in the past that meeting the market demand from that study apparently hinges on Lot J, which would happen under the new stadium proposal anyway.
^It's roughly the same, idea of adding an exhibition hall to the back of the Hyatt. What the Hyatt has, you'll have to invest in at the stadium, since the Four Seasons won't have that type of ballroom, meeting space or number of hotel room for people not in Khan's social class. On the other hand, at the Hyatt, you'll need to build the exhibition space.
I mean the difference here is that the Hyatt would love to get new exhibition space, I'm not convinced the Jaguars are especially interested in modifying their stadium design to accommodate convention uses or in building the number of hotel rooms that would be entailed (unless the city is paying $500k a key for it like the Loews hotel would have been).
Sorry, but I can't remember why the plans to add a convention center at the Hyatt never worked out.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 26, 2023, 08:24:39 PM
Sorry, but I can't remember why the plans to add a convention center at the Hyatt never worked out.
As always, $$$$$$$.
Not mentioned in the article is the stadium has, and/or will continue to accommodate, parking for thousands of cars. With little to no good Downtown public transit, hosting a big convention/event around the Hyatt would seem to be very difficult. Heck, I have attended numerous events at the Hyatt and they have run out of parking just for their current facilities. It's amazing how hotels can't accommodate all their guests that they are designed for.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 26, 2023, 10:22:15 PM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 26, 2023, 08:24:39 PM
Sorry, but I can't remember why the plans to add a convention center at the Hyatt never worked out.
As always, $$$$$$$.
Not mentioned in the article is the stadium has, and/or will continue to accommodate, parking for thousands of cars. With little to no good Downtown public transit, hosting a big convention/event around the Hyatt would seem to be very difficult. Heck, I have attended numerous events at the Hyatt and they have run out of parking just for their current facilities. It's amazing how hotels can't accommodate all their guests that they are designed for.
You know what building will never not have parking? The Jacksonville Tax Office on 400 W Bay. To the North we have a full city block of parking. To the west you have a massive parking garage spanning an entire city block. To the east, well you guessed it.. a large parking garage with surface parking on an entire block. Take a guess on what's South of it? Parking! We will never not have enough spaces to serve those audited or those lucky folks invited inside. Hotels? Entertainment? Pshh.
I've never had a problem parking at the Hyatt for a conference or event. However, I'm totally fine parking a block or two north and not in the hotel's garage. Jacksonville also isn't going to have the size of events hosted in major convention cities like Vegas, Orlando and Chicago. $$$$ isn't the issue as much as it not being a priority of the city's to resolve. $$$$ can never be the issue for a $50-$100 million investment when we're now talking about $400 million to move a jail and a $1 billion for stadium improvements. It's always been about priorities.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 26, 2023, 10:41:36 PM
I've never had a problem parking at the Hyatt for a conference or event. However, I'm totally fine parking a block or two north and not in the hotel's garage. Jacksonville also isn't going to have the size of events hosted in major convention cities like Vegas, Orlando and Chicago. $$$$ isn't the issue as much as it not being a priority of the city's to resolve. $$$$ can never be the issue for a $50-$100 million investment when we're now talking about $400 million to move a jail and a $1 billion for stadium improvements. It's always been about priorities.
^LOL. There was a time when people thought $50 to $100 million was a lot of dollars. Then came our $360 million courthouse and the $400 million AV project. Now, we give out tens or hundreds of millions for developer incentives and up to a billion to a billionaire. Heck, its only money. Someone in City leadership must think the City is sitting on oil fields rivalling Saudi Arabia or gold mines rivaling Alaska.
Meanwhile, we lack dollars for parks, septic tanks, street maintenance, public safety, drainage, historic preservation, quality mass transit, social services, etc.
So, we fully agree, its about priorities in the end.
Regarding Hyatt parking, more than once I had to hand my keys to the valet and say you find a place for me to park. Once, I returned later to find they parked my car by the front door! LOL.
I don't mind parking blocks away and, if the weather is good, I actually prefer it (I don't really like parking garages much). However, if you are dressed to the nines for a nice event, the weather isn't so great for how you are dressed, you didn't allow an extra 20 to 30 minutes or more to find alternative parking or you have someone physically limited, parking further away isn't always an option. While maybe it's somewhat imagined, some worry about parking further away due to safety concerns.
I believe if the Hyatt books all its hotel rooms and host meetings/events in all its venues, it could easily attract 3,000+ visitors at once. No way they handle parking for all of that. Maybe we don't have events for tens of thousands, but a decent convention center should at least handle 5,000 to 10,000 at once. Heck, the Times Union Center can handle close to 5,000 between its three theaters and Daily's hits that number too. So, that is not so special for Jax to hit.
Also, if there are competing events going on at the theaters, museums, bars/restaurants, events, etc. downtown, don't count on street parking also covering the Hyatt and a convention center.
^The easy answer is that if there is a demand, a garage can be built or off street parking can be handled in another fashion. Ultimately, adding parking isn't a stumbling block either, if that's a priority.
City Council hired NFL consultant Michael Huyghue to serve as their representative for the upcoming negotiations with the Jaguars.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/politics/government/2023/07/25/jacksonville-city-council-hires-consultant-for-jaguars-stadium-of-the-future-negotiations/70458455007/
Mayor Deegan has interviewed three firms to perform the negotiations on behalf of the city, which are expected to begin in late August.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 25, 2023, 11:35:29 PM
City Council hired NFL consultant Michael Huyghue to serve as their representative for the upcoming negotiations with the Jaguars.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/politics/government/2023/07/25/jacksonville-city-council-hires-consultant-for-jaguars-stadium-of-the-future-negotiations/70458455007/
Mayor Deegan has interviewed three firms to perform the negotiations on behalf of the city, which are expected to begin in late August.
Just quickly appreciating all of this:
QuoteJacksonville City Council agreed Tuesday to hiring own consultant to engage in upcoming Jaguars' stadium negotiations – which could start as early as August.
Council chose Michael Huyghue, a former Jaguars executive and current NFL consultant, to represent the council's interests in negotiations regarding stadium renovations.
"I think it's very important that the council have representation," City Council President Ron Salem said. Salem interviewed three candidates, he said, and brought Huyghue as the primary option to council.
The vote, passed 18-0 with Rory Diamond excused, was one of the first for the new council inaugurated July 1. Prior to the new members taking office, the council expressed skepticism about offering a direct contract without taking open bids for the process. The new council, however, supported Huyghue without criticism.
An open 'request for proposal' process, an alternative to the direct contract, could have taken upwards of three to four months to secure a contract, which Salem said would have taken too long given the Jaguars' desired time frame.
Delightfully hilarious that, with $1 billion on the line, we bring in a consultant with direct ties to the Jags and the NFL, and the City Council unanimously approves it (minus Rory Diamond, whose "military commitments" seem to have him out of the last 650 City Council meetings). We'd expand the search, but we have to abide by the Jags accelerated timeline.
What is going on in this city lately?!?!?
Half of the news articles these days read like parody.
^ Saw this and was struck with the same thoughts and questions. This doesn't look very "adversarial" for use in negotiations. I mean, the City needs a cold blooded killer negotiator for this deal, not a compromised rep. Counting on Deegan to do better.
Looks to me like the Council is setting up to insure the City gives Khan what he wants and plans to use this rep as their "excuse" to do so.
I mean it's absolutely insane as always but after realizing that COJ can't even fix a park in under 4 years and Khan has already poured slabs for a Four Seasons in the current middle of nowhere, at this point I'm just like give the man his money because he's the only one apparently able to actually do something.
Lol
Respect to Deegan and Salem for recognizing the need to bring in some outside talent to help with the negotiations. That is a fantastic idea and could have made Lot J go more smoothly. Beating a dead horse, but at the same time it's ridiculous to hire Huyghue. I get the need to hire someone quickly, but they could have gone to every major law firm in the state or country and found extremely competent and skilled negotiators that are unbiased. Hughue's rate of $325 an hour is very low for this level of practice, so I'm sure that is appealing, but this isn't a time to be cheap.
Also, Huyghue got swept up in the Nevin Shapiro fiasco back in 2011 and his career seems to have stalled a bit since then. IF the Shapiro story is true, who is to say he can't be compromised by a wealthy man with a lot to gain from the deal.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/6866006/ponzi-schemer-nevin-shapiro-says-provided-benefits-miami-athletes
QuoteYahoo! Sports reported that players got cash and benefits through Shapiro's partner, former NFL agent and current UFL commissioner Michael Huyghue.
Reached Tuesday by The Associated Press, Huyghue denied that story.
"It's just fantasy," Huyghue said. "He never had any role in my company."
Huyghue said he signed three Miami players in seven years. He said Shapiro was not a runner and he did not represent any players, but did invest $1.5 million in his agency in 2001 and that the two spoke only occasionally.
"He didn't have the acumen to represent players," Huyghue said.
Meanwhile, at least one player named by Shapiro said he did try to steer them toward agents.
"I know of (Shapiro)," said Hester, now with the Chicago Bears. "At the time I was going into the draft, he was like a runner for an agent. I had declared into the draft. He was one of the runners for one agent."
QuoteHey, Jacksonville, that's also known as a conflict of interest. How can Huyghue be expected to zealously represent the rights of the taxpayers of Jacksonville if he has a separate consulting relationship "with all 32 NFL teams and the commissioner"? The league's interests and the Jaguars interest when it comes to squeezing maximum public money for a renovated stadium are fully aligned. And now the City Council has now agreed to pay the proverbial fox a whopping $325 per hour to build a bigger henhouse.
More amazingly, Huyghue was approved by a unanimous vote. Which means that the Jacksonville City Council is either entirely oblivious or entirely unconcerned about the very clear disconnect between what the Jaguars/NFL want and what Jacksonville is willing/able to give.
https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/jacksonville-city-council-hires-former-jaguars-executive-michael-huyghue-as-stadium-consultant (https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/jacksonville-city-council-hires-former-jaguars-executive-michael-huyghue-as-stadium-consultant)
My assumption has been that Huyghue isn't actually doing the negotiation, just keeping Council separately updated on their progress and explaining whatever they don't understand. I would think whoever the Mayor hires would be the actual negotiator on behalf of the city. That could be a million-dollar contract, and probably should be, seeing as they'd be determining whether and how the city is going to spend a billion dollars.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 26, 2023, 12:41:20 PM
My assumption has been that Huyghue isn't actually doing the negotiation, just keeping Council separately updated on their progress and explaining whatever they don't understand. I would think whoever the Mayor hires would be the actual negotiator on behalf of the city. That could be a million-dollar contract, and probably should be, seeing as they'd be determining whether and how the city is going to spend a billion dollars.
Would any of this explaining to City Council possibly happen on a yacht, or in box seats come September? ;D
I jest -- kind of. I'm sure you're correct that Deegan's consultant will be the true negotiator, but Council has an important role to play, and the appearance of conflict does nothing to make a skeptical public think better of the process. I'll admit this one thing on its own probably wouldn't be all that concerning, but given our track record -- I think the question of "entirely oblivious or entirely unconcerned" is a fair one to ask.
^ I am happy to "re-explain" to the City Council any subject that the City has paid up to $2 million for someone to consult on for the compensation offered here 8).
My question is what is the need and motivation for the Council to do this if they aren't trying to undermine or negotiate on their own for this deal? Keep in mind the Council has to approve the deal so why would they not just have Deegan's team present to them. They can then express any concerns or questions at that time or earlier, since Deegan is likely to include reps of the Council in the inner circle of negotiations or at least run some major tenets by them to insure the Council is on board with a final deal.
I think there is a chance that Deegan negotiates a deal and the super partisan members of the Council pick it apart just to give her a hard time. Kind of like what they did during the election to LeAnna Cumber or with the judge in the redistricting case.
Yea I mean in fairness to this whole thing, this will be negotiated by the Mayor's office. Not by City Council.
Sure, it just begs the question:
Is this advisor in an important, consequential role? If so, we should seek someone who would unequivocally prioritize the City's interests. If not...what's the point?
City Council was ready to buy Lot J hook, line, and sinker on Curry and Khan's word until public pressure barely forced its defeat. Now they need their own consultant before Deegan has even selected a negotiator.
I don't mean to imply this is some massive conspiracy, I'm just really struggling to identify the objective value-add of this move.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on July 26, 2023, 07:54:43 PM
Sure, it just begs the question:
Is this advisor in an important, consequential role? If so, we should seek someone who would unequivocally prioritize the City's interests. If not...what's the point?
City Council was ready to buy Lot J hook, line, and sinker on Curry and Khan's word until public pressure barely forced its defeat. Now they need their own consultant before Deegan has even selected a negotiator.
I don't mean to imply this is some massive conspiracy, I'm just really struggling to identify the objective value-add of this move.
This is exactly why this hire IS so important.
City Council is ultimately the one who will have to vote yes or no on the stadium deal, and to your point, Lot J would have passed nearly unanimously had the public not become so vocal against it.
Yes, Donna will have her own negotiator, but this City Council liaison is ultimately going to be the person coloring City Council's perception of a complex multi-faceted $1 billion mixed use deal. And said liaison isn't a neutral party. They are a former executive for the business on the other end of the negotiating table, and someone with a vested interest in staying on the good side of the NFL.
If the end goal is to get the best deal possible for the City of Jacksonville, a hire like this is not just unnecessary, but also potentially dangerous.
18-0.
Wild.
Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/TIAA-Bank-FIeld-Renovation/i-BBBG77m/0/d4cef4a8/L/2023_0607_StadiumoftheFutureRendering-2rev-L.jpg)
City Council hires consultant as stadium talks near
The City Council will hire a consultant as stadium talks near.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/city-council-hires-consultant-as-stadium-talks-near/
The Deegan Administration has hired Chicago-based law firm Sidley Austin to represent the City of Jacksonville in its stadium deal negotiations with the Jaguars, which are set to begin by the end of the month.
https://twitter.com/NateMonroeTU/status/1691494742771609606?s=20
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/aug/15/city-chooses-sidley-austin-for-stadium-of-the-future-negotiations/
This attorney makes some excellent points about why the community should pause on giving big bucks to Khan for the stadium project. Whether pro or con (no pun intended 8) ), the community should take into account his 6 considerations in deciding how to proceed.
QuoteLocal attorney: Jaguars' stadium project a leadership moment for mayor, City Council
With all the discussions surrounding the "Stadium of the Future" announced by the Jacksonville Jaguars, here are six things Duval County citizens should know about the proposed project.
One, building a new stadium will have little economic impact on our city, no matter how much we love the Jaguars. Dozens of economic studies have confirmed that stadiums (and, for that matter, the presence of an NFL team) do not have any meaningful impact on jobs, economic activity, business relocations to the host city, property values or household income. Likewise, cities like San Diego and St. Louis losing NFL teams suffer little economic effect per those same studies.
Two, city funding for the stadium is an enormous wealth transfer to owner Shad Khan, as NFL teams are valued at 30 to 45 times EBITDA cash flow (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. A leaked investment proposal for the Washington Commanders suggests that a new stadium and a sportsbook — a company that accepts bets on sporting events — could add up to $80 million to $100 million to the Jaguars' annual cash flow.
Even at $50 million, the new stadium would increase the net worth of the team by $1.5 billion. That helps explain why the Chicago Bears are building a stadium at their own expense and suggests that Khan would still benefit even if he fully funded the new stadium.
Three, taxes raised to generate city funding for a new stadium have real economic consequences for the community. Any tax other than a ticket surcharge or in-stadium sales tax violates the benefit principle of taxation, meaning that the people paying the tax aren't the people benefiting from the stadium. Moreover, any tax reduces the disposable income of those paying the tax, reducing economic activity in the city.
Four, city funding for the stadium carries a significant opportunity cost. Jacksonville is burdened with pension debt and unfulfilled promises and seems unable to be able to even build a park or to open public pools in the dead of summer. We must rethink our priorities and make economically sound decisions if we want to be a great city.
Five, taxpayer-funded subsidies for billionaires are unjust and anti-capitalist, as libertarians and progressives generally agree. There are good reasons why our Florida and federal governments have moved away from subsidizing sports stadiums.
Six, politicians routinely ignore the economic data and succumb to the fancy renderings, exaggerated promotional studies and relocation threats by the NFL team (see Buffalo and Nashville).
This is a leadership moment for Mayor Donna Deegan and the City Council. I urge residents to share with them their views.
Daniel B. Nunn, Jr., is a Jacksonville-based attorney specializing in mergers and acquisitions.
This guest column is the opinion of the author and does not necessarily represent the views of the Times-Union. We welcome a diversity of opinions.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2023/09/03/khan-may-still-benefit-even-if-he-funds-jaguars-new-stadium-entirely/70707244007/
What about the development side of things? This editorial does not address that part. To me, that's something that this city should dig into for details as putting all that dead property back on the tax rolls and the job creation could be significant. While the stadium is the flashy thing, developing all those underutilized parking lots in the Sports District is that thing that really catches my eye as a taxpayer.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 03, 2023, 10:42:48 PM
This attorney makes some excellent points about why the community should pause on giving big bucks to Khan for the stadium project. Whether pro or con (no pun intended 8) ), the community should take into account his 6 considerations in deciding how to proceed.
QuoteLocal attorney: Jaguars' stadium project a leadership moment for mayor, City Council
With all the discussions surrounding the "Stadium of the Future" announced by the Jacksonville Jaguars, here are six things Duval County citizens should know about the proposed project.
One, building a new stadium will have little economic impact on our city, no matter how much we love the Jaguars. Dozens of economic studies have confirmed that stadiums (and, for that matter, the presence of an NFL team) do not have any meaningful impact on jobs, economic activity, business relocations to the host city, property values or household income. Likewise, cities like San Diego and St. Louis losing NFL teams suffer little economic effect per those same studies.
All the economics nerds (disclaimer: I myself am an economics nerd/data scientist by trade) look at these things purely in a vacuum.
Professional sports are as much an investment in quality of life and civic pride as they are an economic engine. It's stupid to look at the decision as purely an ROI calculation.
Further, Jacksonville isn't San Diego, or even St. Louis, for that matter. Both have multiple other major league professional sports franchises to fall back on, as well as other advantages that Jacksonville doesn't have.
It is INSANE to suggest that losing the Jags wouldn't have serious long-term consequences for Jacksonville.
We put tens of millions into the Zoo every few years, do we ask these same sterile questions about ROI?
QuoteTwo, city funding for the stadium is an enormous wealth transfer to owner Shad Khan, as NFL teams are valued at 30 to 45 times EBITDA cash flow (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. A leaked investment proposal for the Washington Commanders suggests that a new stadium and a sportsbook — a company that accepts bets on sporting events — could add up to $80 million to $100 million to the Jaguars' annual cash flow.
Even at $50 million, the new stadium would increase the net worth of the team by $1.5 billion. That helps explain why the Chicago Bears are building a stadium at their own expense and suggests that Khan would still benefit even if he fully funded the new stadium.
Three, taxes raised to generate city funding for a new stadium have real economic consequences for the community. Any tax other than a ticket surcharge or in-stadium sales tax violates the benefit principle of taxation, meaning that the people paying the tax aren't the people benefiting from the stadium. Moreover, any tax reduces the disposable income of those paying the tax, reducing economic activity in the city.
The author is effectively describing just about every single subsidy we give as a city.
You think the taxpayers are benefiting from the Laura Street Trio? Or Paycor? Or the District? Or the American Lions phantom tower at the Landing? It's just the nature of the beast.
Any comparisons to privately funded stadiums in Los Angeles, New York, or Chicago are absurd. These are World Cities routinely in play for the World Cup, Olympics, and major world tours. Privately building and owning a $1 billion+ stadium makes sense in these markets. It doesn't make sense in Jacksonville.
QuoteFour, city funding for the stadium carries a significant opportunity cost. Jacksonville is burdened with pension debt and unfulfilled promises and seems unable to be able to even build a park or to open public pools in the dead of summer. We must rethink our priorities and make economically sound decisions if we want to be a great city.
Strawman argument.
We're unable to build a park or open public pools because of INCOMPETENCE in leadership, not opportunity cost. The public pools are a drop in the bucket compared to the stadium, and the problem there was staffing and lack of care from the mayor's office. Even dating back to the original Metro Park, when the state was literally throwing money at us, we had no idea what we were doing. Curry put $100 million in the budget for parks. We still can't figure out how to open Friendship Park.
It's a bad faith argument to suggest that pools and parks are somehow being sacrificed in favor of the Jags.
There's plenty of room for both.
Look at ANY project the Jags have project managed (such as Four Seasons, which is months ahead of schedule of going vertical) and ANY project the city has managed (again, Friendship Park, which is three years behind schedule), and tell me where the problem is.
QuoteFive, taxpayer-funded subsidies for billionaires are unjust and anti-capitalist, as libertarians and progressives generally agree. There are good reasons why our Florida and federal governments have moved away from subsidizing sports stadiums.
The reason that Florida has moved away from subsidizing sports stadiums is because Ron DeSantis got upset that Tampa Bay Rays ownership had the AUDACITY to speak in favor of gun control on social media following mass shootings in Uvalde and Buffalo. The decision wasn't morally or economically motivated. It was pure politics.
QuoteSix, politicians routinely ignore the economic data and succumb to the fancy renderings, exaggerated promotional studies and relocation threats by the NFL team (see Buffalo and Nashville).
This is a leadership moment for Mayor Donna Deegan and the City Council. I urge residents to share with them their views.
To me, just a dumb, one-sided, incendiary column overall without a clear call to action. Where's the mention of positive externalities on the development or quality of life side? What is this guy asking people to do? Let the Jags walk? Refuse to subsidize improvements of the oldest stadium in the NFL?
Plenty of reasons to support or not support a new stadium in Jacksonville.
Don't find this piece particularly balanced or compelling.
As a younger resident of the city, I've only known a Jacksonville with the Jaguars and at least for the younger generation, the source of pride and community that the team brings is immense and probably can't be measured on paper. For my peers and I, the Jags have given us an opportunity to be vocally and visibly proud of our city in spite of all of the other things Jax lacks in comparison to other places.
As silly as it may sound, many of my peers have increased political and civic engagement due to the Jags. They go to the games and have to drive through Downtown and want to see the city do better and be better. When the Jags do good (rare), it increases pride and we want to see the rest of the city do good as well. With the recent success of the Jags, I've seen many friends who swore off Jacksonville in high school begin to trickle back in and look at the city in a new light. They've talked about moving back and starting a life here. For new residents, going to a game and getting to experience tailgating and the unabashedly Duval culture you get to experience at a home game has allowed for them to assimilate and be welcomed here.
And then for me personally, one of my earliest memories was Jaxson DeVille visiting me while I was in the hospital as a kid. Going to training camps and meeting players. As a current season ticket holder, I take every chance I get to bring someone new to a game, a chance to be surrounded by thousands of people who are proud of Jax and rooting for the team that represents our city, and after a game, finishing off at a bar or restaurant Downtown or 5 Points. It's always a great time and brings so much positive energy that currently isn't being replicated anywhere else in the city on such a massive scale.
I firmly believe the city should negotiate hard with the Jags and make sure the taxpayers get a fair deal but Ken is absolutely right that the quality of life and civic pride the Jags bring has to be a major part of the conversation as well
I have an econ degree. One thing I'll say is that this is a micro case-study. Macro factors really aren't a valid argument here.
Second is that our situation requires a deep analysis into the cost-benefit matrix. I can't imagine what would the expense & wasted opportunity cost would be if the Jags vacated 30+ acres in our DT. We can't get our ducts in a row with prime DT waterfront property. What would we do with a rotting stadium and new player facility?
Quote from: Jax_Developer on September 05, 2023, 09:50:55 AM
I can't imagine what would the expense & wasted opportunity cost would be if the Jags vacated 30+ acres in our DT. We can't get our ducts in a row with prime DT waterfront property. What would we do with a rotting stadium and new player facility?
Healthy Town 2, but this time with an athletic complex. The ultimate Healthy Town luxury amenity.
Outstanding points Ken fsu
Quote from: fsu813 on September 05, 2023, 02:13:07 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on September 05, 2023, 09:50:55 AM
I can't imagine what would the expense & wasted opportunity cost would be if the Jags vacated 30+ acres in our DT. We can't get our ducts in a row with prime DT waterfront property. What would we do with a rotting stadium and new player facility?
Healthy Town 2, but this time with an athletic complex. The ultimate Healthy Town luxury amenity.
Perfectly placed next to 100 year old brownfields, just like the previous rendition lolol
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 05, 2023, 02:33:55 PM
Outstanding points Ken fsu
Thanks!
With the necessary disclaimer that I was DRUNK AS A SKUNK after the LSU-FSU game when I posted this ;D
Was browsing the board the next day and thought, "I agree with a lot of this guy's points!"
By the end of the post I'm like, "Oh shit! This is me."
You know you're getting older when instead of waking up next to a stranger from a bar, you wake up to message board posts defending tax subsidies for a billionaire.
10/10 night; would do it again.
^ LOL. Sounds like a split personality. Glad you can see two sides to the coin. Will be interesting to see how the City balances competing viewpoints. I hope the Jags are somewhat negotiable. Ramming their leverage down the City's throats isn't going to win many brownie points, even from die hard fans. Be fair 8).
As an aside, Pete Prisco (former T-U sports columnist), is picking the Jags vs. the 49ers in the Super Bowl. If that comes true, the Jags will have even a tighter hold on the City. Here is the link: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-week-1-power-rankings-jaguars-49ers-set-to-meet-in-2024-super-bowl-thanks-to-talent-and-weak-divisions/
Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 05, 2023, 09:41:09 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 05, 2023, 02:33:55 PM
Outstanding points Ken fsu
Thanks!
With the necessary disclaimer that I was DRUNK AS A SKUNK after the LSU-FSU game when I posted this ;D
Was browsing the board the next day and thought, "I agree with a lot of this guy's points!"
By the end of the post I'm like, "Oh shit! This is me."
You know you're getting older when instead of waking up next to a stranger from a bar, you wake up to message board posts defending tax subsidies for a billionaire.
10/10 night; would do it again.
A 10/10 night?? Woohoo!
Action News Jax reported that the City and Jaguars held their first negotiation meeting at Everbank Stadium last Wednesday.
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/duval-county/city-jacksonville-jaguars-begin-negotiations-stadium-renovations-deal/5HGO2JR3SBB3JGOFK2VVAP5XME/
Similar themes here.....
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/38430468/report-rays-complete-deal-new-stadium-st-petersburg
^We'd do really well if we can get a CBA similar to the St. Petersburg deal.
In similar news, Oklahoma City is about to construct a $900 million arena for the NBA's Oklahoma City Thunder franchise:
https://www.okc.gov/Home/Components/News/News/4564/18
The Thunder will put up $50 million. OKC taxpayers will cover the rest.
Probably the most thoughtful local poll done on the subject yet.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/sep/18/poll-offers-insight-into-public-support-for-jaguars-stadium-renovations/
Percentage of locals who support spending $1 billion in public dollars on a new stadium for the Jags - 6%.
Percentage of locals who support spending $1 billion in public dollars on a new stadium for the Jags if NOT spending means the Jags leave the city - nearly 50%.
The first number is the one that the media always grasps onto when discussing public subsidies for the stadium.
The second number is the one that actually matters.
^ that's still underwater though - I don't see spending $1B of local tax dollars on the stadium alone as feasible. An overall investment of $1B for the stadium district as a whole is palatable though.
Isn't that essentially the ask? I thought the original proposal was something like $800 million of the $1.4 billion Stadium plus maybe $150 million for the district. It just seems to me like they're not saying much publicly about the district (which is probably smart, why bring much attention to a potentially contentious thing aside from the big contentious thing).
I think the public backing a stadium deal is much depending on play on the field. If the Jags are playing well, the support for funding the remodel will rise. However, if the offense plays like they did yesterday, support will fall. Surely, someone snuck quaaludes into the teams water bottles yesterday.
Wow the whole city of 900 plus thousand polled on the stadium and jail. Oh wait only 500 people were polled on both of those topics. Them putting out there that the entire population polled and agreed to those questions.
The devil is really in the details. Personally, I need to see more info about funding mechanisms, future liabilities created by the improvements, disaster resilience, and how this project benefits citizens outside of game day before I can pass judgement. For instance, I'm much more open to adding surcharges to ticket sales that the city taking on debt to pay for its share.
I was told by a city manager once that the key to negotiating is being willing to walk away from a deal to get what you need. So I would definitely play hardball. I'd force the Jags to justify every cent of public money and I'd get independent verification of all ROI figures presented. I really don't care about the deals other cities give to their sports teams except for the evidence of ROI we could expect from our investments and ideas that could be used to improve outcomes for our citizens.
Quote from: Skybox111 on September 18, 2023, 05:16:24 PM
Wow the whole city of 900 plus thousand polled on the stadium and jail. Oh wait only 500 people were polled on both of those topics. Them putting out there that the entire population polled and agreed to those questions.
Yep, that's kinda how polls work
Quote from: Skybox111 on September 18, 2023, 05:16:24 PM
Wow the whole city of 900 plus thousand polled on the stadium and jail. Oh wait only 500 people were polled on both of those topics. Them putting out there that the entire population polled and agreed to those questions.
500 is actually a fairly large sample size for a poll like this. As a fella who occasionally conducts surveys/polls, it would be obscenely expensive and logistically impossible to ask 900,000 people to complete a poll. It would never happen. So, instead, you administer the survey to a smaller, random sample of the larger population. The larger the sample, the more certain you can be that your findings are a close approximation to the sentiments of the full population. The margin of error on this particular survey was around 5%. So, technically, instead of knowing that 46% of locals sampled would support a $1 billion investment if it kept the team here, we actuallly know (with 95% certainty) that somewhere between 41% and 51% of the full population would feel the same way. It's not perfect, particularly if you don't use proper rigor when selecting your sample, but it's usually a good finger in the wind.
I'm excited about the mixed-use development surrounding the stadium, more so than the stadium itself. The development portion makes this potential deal a bit different than the average sports stadium deal of the past when discussing ROI.
I would love to see a poll that asks respondents to rank the proposed megaprojects by their preferred prioritization, as well as their levels of awareness and support for each project.
I doubt that anyone taking that survey understands they (the city of Jacksonville) owns the stadium. It is not owned by the Jaguars or Shad.
Came across this and thought I'd share.
While HOK ultimately won the contest to design the "Stadium of the Future," one of the apparent competitors, MEIS, has published their design:
https://meisstudio.com/tiaa-bank-field-1/rzuw6806w8nlkarjbi68u2z4gp8nom
QuoteDesign for a $1B transformation of TIAA Bank Stadium, home to the NFL's Jacksonville Jaguars. Originally built in the early 1990's this study anticipates a complete reimagining of the stadium model of this era.
The design employs the addition of a large structural ETFE clad shell whose shape recalls the claws of the Jaguar. Several variations were studied including a retractable ETFE "lens" to fully cover the field and removable turf. Concourses are widened and integrated with the surrounding landscape in a much more natural terraced configuration taking advantage of the lush Florida landscape. One unique feature of the design was an "occupied" video board that included VIP seating and supporting amenities. This video board becomes the Jacksonville equivalent of LA's famous Hollywood sign.
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/53d7de6ee4b072f44b8748e7/1689720194670-4FT7NJK54P873SHA0T6B/MEIS-JAGUARS-V01-AERIAL-EBC-FINALE-P-7K-V2.jpg?format=1000w)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/53d7de6ee4b072f44b8748e7/1689720144304-MKTESE0TFK7UMSYVC2WJ/MEIS-JAGUARS-V02-PROMENADE-FINAL.jpg?format=1000w)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/53d7de6ee4b072f44b8748e7/1689720170522-KB6XRPPQ6KSA2302S5YY/MEIS-JAGUARS-BOWL-FINAL_05.jpg?format=1000w)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/53d7de6ee4b072f44b8748e7/1689720075496-HR5AX119DSOMG2JTQD60/1_SIGN_AP_TS.png?format=1000w)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/53d7de6ee4b072f44b8748e7/1689720078172-IF5STV49CP95BMC6L4GF/3_NE+CONCOURSE_AP_TS.png?format=1000w)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/53d7de6ee4b072f44b8748e7/1689720118125-4AYXY3FESGBYR5BIPKG3/4_WEST+CONCOURSE_AP_TS.png?format=1000w)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/53d7de6ee4b072f44b8748e7/1689720097806-12GV4CXDNYX0ZVLLVJHZ/5_POOL_AP_TS.png?format=1000w)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/53d7de6ee4b072f44b8748e7/1689720169268-DCY8J3JAO12F27B510CJ/MEIS-JAGUARS-V03-CONCOURSE-FINAL.jpg?format=1000w)
Interesting. But in these renderings it kind of looks too "busy" to me. Eye candy on overdrive 8).
I would also think the maintenance of all the detail would be very expensive, especially in our climate. When the City negotiates with the Jags, the allocation of the maintenance and operational expenses need to be as much a part of the negotiations as the upfront costs. Over time, they are likely to be greater.
NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell was in town during Monday's game and met with city officials about the stadium plans.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/12/07/goodell-khan-and-jacksonville-city-leaders-talk-stadium-deal/71825177007/
Employee steals $22 million from Jags before they notice it ;D. Are we sure they need City dollars to balance their books?
QuoteFormer Jaguars employee accused of stealing millions from team used most of the money to gamble on sports, attorney says
The lawyer for a former financial planning manager for the Jacksonville Jaguars accused of stealing more than $22 million from the franchise said he spent most of that money gambling on sports.
In a news release Dec. 7, the attorney for Amit Patel said his client will plead guilty to the charges of wire fraud and making illegal transactions and that he checked into a rehabilitation center to treat his gambling addiction this spring.
Patel met with NFL officials in February who were investigating his gambling activities, primarily involving daily fantasy sports betting on websites like DraftKings and FanDuel.
Later that month, he was fired for using the Jaguars' money to fund his gambling addiction.
That attorney said 99% of the misappropriated money went to cover his gambling losses to win money back "with the anticipation he would repay the funds with the winnings and make the Jaguars whole."
According to this federal indictment, Patel used his responsibilities as a manager of financial planning and analysis for the Jacksonville Jaguars to spend the team's money on personal expenses.
Federal attorneys allege Patel spent more than $22 million of the company's money via their virtual credit card program on gambling, private jet rides and luxury hotels for himself and his friends, cryptocurrency, a country club membership, spa treatments, event tickets, furniture and luxury wristwatches including one that cost him, but really the Jags, more than $95,000....
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/dec/07/former-jaguars-employee-accused-of-stealing-millions-from-team-used-most-of-the-money-to-gamble-on-sports-attorney-says/
That's a crazy amount of money to steal and get away with it so long.
Seems like there should have been an obvious disconnect between this guys' salary and his lifestyle/trinkets.
Little more info from CNN on how he did it:
QuoteBetween September 2019 and February 2023 – when he was fired by the team – it's alleged that Patel created an elaborate scheme to siphon money while avoiding detection.
"For example, to hide his fraudulent VCC transactions, the defendant identified legitimate reoccurring VCC transactions, such as catering, airfare, and hotel charges, and then duplicated those transactions," according to the the court documents.
"He inflated the amounts of legitimate reoccurring VCC transactions; he entered completely fictious transactions that might sound plausible, but that never actually occurred; and he moved legitimate VCC charges from upcoming months into the month of the integration file that was immediately due to the accounting department."
Amounts to roughly $524k per month skimmed off the top, over the course of about three and a half years.
Even in the NFL, where annual operating expenses are over $400 million a year, that's a pretty big chunk of change to go missing each month with no one noticing.
You'd think the lavish lifestyle would have raised some red flags.
QuoteNegotiations for renovated Jaguars stadium described as puzzle with 15 moving pieces
A new long-term lease, a relocation contingency and agreements on parking revenue and a minimum number of home games are part of a lengthy list of elements under consideration for a complex deal between the city and the Jacksonville Jaguars on a renovated stadium for the NFL team, a lead adviser for Mayor Donna Deegan told the City Council.
"Fifteen pieces of this puzzle are all moving on their own schedule," said Mike Weinstein, who is part of Deegan's negotiating team. "Hopefully, they'll come together."
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/dec/14/negotiations-for-renovated-jaguars-stadium-described-as-puzzle-with-15-moving-pieces/
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 08, 2023, 12:00:10 AM
Employee steals $22 million from Jags before they notice it ;D. Are we sure they need City dollars to balance their books?
QuoteFormer Jaguars employee accused of stealing millions from team used most of the money to gamble on sports, attorney says
The lawyer for a former financial planning manager for the Jacksonville Jaguars accused of stealing more than $22 million from the franchise said he spent most of that money gambling on sports.
In a news release Dec. 7, the attorney for Amit Patel said his client will plead guilty to the charges of wire fraud and making illegal transactions and that he checked into a rehabilitation center to treat his gambling addiction this spring.
Patel met with NFL officials in February who were investigating his gambling activities, primarily involving daily fantasy sports betting on websites like DraftKings and FanDuel.
Later that month, he was fired for using the Jaguars' money to fund his gambling addiction.
That attorney said 99% of the misappropriated money went to cover his gambling losses to win money back "with the anticipation he would repay the funds with the winnings and make the Jaguars whole."
According to this federal indictment, Patel used his responsibilities as a manager of financial planning and analysis for the Jacksonville Jaguars to spend the team's money on personal expenses.
Federal attorneys allege Patel spent more than $22 million of the company's money via their virtual credit card program on gambling, private jet rides and luxury hotels for himself and his friends, cryptocurrency, a country club membership, spa treatments, event tickets, furniture and luxury wristwatches including one that cost him, but really the Jags, more than $95,000....
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/dec/07/former-jaguars-employee-accused-of-stealing-millions-from-team-used-most-of-the-money-to-gamble-on-sports-attorney-says/
Update on this at ESPN... Jags looking to FanDuel to refund the money... LOL. Good luck with that.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/39444143/jacksonville-jaguars-fanduel-amit-patel-stolen-millions (https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/39444143/jacksonville-jaguars-fanduel-amit-patel-stolen-millions)
QuoteJaguars asked FanDuel to return stolen $20M, source says
The Jacksonville Jaguars have asked FanDuel to reimburse them for some or all of the approximately $20 million in stolen proceeds a former employee lost on the site, but the company is unwilling to pay, a source familiar with the situation told ESPN.
Amit Patel, a midlevel finance manager, has pleaded guilty to stealing $22 million through a virtual credit card system the Jaguars used for expenses. Sources with knowledge of the case told ESPN that Patel lost about $20 million of the funds on daily fantasy and sports bets at FanDuel, which had assigned him a VIP host. He lost about $1 million on DraftKings, sources said.
Patel transferred money directly from the team VCC to FanDuel, sources said.
The source familiar with the situation said discussions are ongoing among FanDuel, the Jaguars and the NFL on what the source called "a settlement." However, the source said, "The way they see it ... we got this money fair and clear. It's not our problem that we have to forfeit it back to you."
"I would be gobsmacked if it happened," the source added.
FanDuel and the NFL declined to comment. The Jaguars did not respond to requests for comment.
Patel siphoned the funds over 3½ years, according to federal court documents. In December, he pleaded guilty to fraud charges in federal court in Jacksonville, Florida. He faces up to 30 years in prison and a $500,000 fine when he is sentenced March 12.
Sources said FanDuel alerted the NFL to Patel's betting in January 2023 after he placed traditional sports bets in Tennessee. The amounts and types of wagers that triggered the investigation are unknown. The Jaguars had no knowledge of the embezzlement scheme or Patel's extensive daily fantasy habit until they were notified by the NFL, team and league sources said.
It's not clear what recourse the Jaguars might have to recoup the losses. Under federal law, FanDuel has an obligation to make sure funds used for sports betting were legally obtained, but the regulations are murkier for daily fantasy.
"Gambling sites have a duty to perform 'Anti-Money Laundering' and 'Know Your Client' procedures to ensure they do not onboard funds of an illicit origin," said Stephen Bell, an attorney who practices in white-collar criminal cases. "Where the size of a customer's bets far outweighs their income, red flags are present and should require additional due diligence to confirm the funds are clean."
Online records show Patel was a high-stakes and high-volume daily fantasy player on FanDuel and DraftKings, both of which are official betting partners of the NFL. Patel played daily fantasy sports as far back as 2017, the records show, and his play escalated in 2021 and 2022. ESPN previously reported that Patel played daily fantasy under the username "ParlayPicker" and was believed to have racked up big losses playing against elite competition in contests with buy-ins upward of $24,000.
One veteran daily fantasy player told ESPN on condition of anonymity that they believe ParlayPicker is "the biggest loser ever on FanDuel."
"He was legendarily bad," the person said.
Federal authorities say Patel lived an extravagant lifestyle while employed with the Jaguars that included chartering private jets, reserving luxury hotels, acquiring multiple vehicles and purchasing cryptocurrency, a country club membership, spa treatments and a wristwatch that cost more than $95,000.
Co-workers assumed Patel's family was wealthy. One former team employee said they remember seeing Patel's lavish lifestyle on his social media accounts, which he has since deleted.
"I remember on Instagram he was taking baller-style trips all the time. In the Hamptons, Miami, living a large life. Bottle service at clubs," the former employee said. "There was no way he could have afforded the lifestyle based on the Jaguar salary."
In a Dec. 7 statement, Patel's attorney, Alex King, denied that Patel funded his lifestyle with the stolen money and said his home and car were bought with family or earned money.
"Mr. Patel did not use the Jaguars' VCC to fund his lifestyle, but in a horribly misguided effort to pay back previous gambling losses," King said.
Patel said during a December court appearance that he has a "gambling disorder" and is seeing a therapist weekly for treatment. He said he underwent treatment for alcohol and substance abuse from March to June last year.
Anyone have thoughts on the city's (early) idea to partner with the Police & Fire pension on stadium financing?
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2024/02/13/city-could-ask-pension-funds-to-be-investor-in-new-jaguars-stadium-deal/
I can see how it would be an attractive idea for the city, assuming a low enough interest rate that it's financially advantageous versus traditional bond financing. Seems like it'd be a tough sell to the Pension Board, however, who are rightfully motivated by getting the highest return possible vs. doing the city a solid (though I guess it would help with diversification). Will be interesting to see how this one plays out.
Also, it's starting to sound more and more like the stadium deal is going to be broken out separate from any surrounding sports district development. Doesn't sound like anything formal has been discussed at all in terms of what surrounding development may look like or entail, just purely stadium negotiations.
Others probably disagree, but I kind of hope we're able to negotiate them in tandem. Gives Shad more incentive to pay 85%+ of the cost of the surrounding development as originally stated if the city is willing to play ball on the stadium split.
Folks I've talked to are pretty pessimistic about this making sense for the pension funds, but they're also rather pessimistic on public expenditure for the NFL in general so maybe that's to be expected.
I guess it's worth asking, but like the article notes it still relies on the city having a way to pay the financiers back, and regardless of whether it's a pension loan or a bond that is going to be the glaring question.
Primary issue bond pricing is relatively straightforward. If the bond market would charge >6.5% yields to lend to the city, then the market views the bond issue as too risky for a 6.5% compensation in exchange for taking on that repayment risk. So why on earth would the pension fund accept a lower risk premium? I understand the argument that a fixed, guaranteed rate of return is attractive and minimizes their portfolio volatility, but the same can be achieved with any other bond purchase held to maturity. The pension fund isn't necessarily seeking the best possible return, but rather the best possible risk-adjusted return consistent with their stated 6.5% target. If the market thinks Jax city debt demands >6.5% yields, the implication would be that there are lower-risk investments available that meet the fund's 6.5% target RoR.
I'm not sure how a pension loan vs. bonding would affect the city's bonding capacity, but common sense would suggest that money borrowed by any other name is still debt, and no matter what you call it, the stadium funding will increase the city's riskiness in the eyes of investors for future lending unless it's backed by new, dedicated revenue streams.
The Trustees of any pension fund have a legal fiduciary responsibility to invest the fund in diverse and "arms-length" investments with risks appropriate for such funds (i.e, even at 1,000 to 1 odds, no placing bets at a horse track).
Financing the stadium likely doesn't qualify on any of these counts. If it is even $100 million, that is likely way too much for the fund's size to concentrate in a single investment. As Jaxonole notes, any interest rate below the market is suspect as to being at arms-length. As to risk, if the borrower or guarantor is the City (not the Jags), it is going to weigh on the City's total debt load and add to its financial risk. Add it all up, and this doesn't seem to fly or even get off the ground.
I suggest the City borrow the money from Shad Khan. He is worth a lot more than the pension fund, knowing the deal he won't ask for as much due diligence saving closing costs and speeding up things and he has a vested interest in the outcome. Maybe he can give the City a sweetheart (hey, it's Valentine's Day) deal.
Great article on Deadspin about the absurdity of having public funds spent on NFL stadiums. Hope Jax comes to its senses. Doubtful!
https://deadspin.com/kansas-city-royals-new-stadium-kauffman-stadium-1851261353 (https://deadspin.com/kansas-city-royals-new-stadium-kauffman-stadium-1851261353)
The big difference here is that the Jags aren't proposing to tear down an already vibrant district filled with businesses and historic buildings. Here, long vacant and underutilized surface parking lots are getting filled in. The Eastside is also likely getting millions in the form of a CBA to revitalize. However, the devil will be in the deal details.
Looks like the sports district is being separated from the stadium renovation.
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/659765-deegan-stadium/
Also, a note on the pension fund idea:
QuoteAs Florida Politics reported yesterday, Deegan in comments to WJCT seemed supportive of a Weinstein proposal to fund stadium renovation costs with pension fund assets, guaranteeing the city's eternally challenged retirement funds a AAA rated income stream. She said that would keep the financing "all in the family."
The Weinstein proposal assumes that interest rates will stay high, and he said that if rates declined, the city could simply refinance the debt on bond markets if that was a better deal.
An initial $10m spend by the city on design work for the stadium:
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2024/02/28/jacksonville-considers-10-million-in-preconstruction-spending-for-jaguars-everbank-stadium/72717111007/
Talks starting on environmental resource permitting.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2024/mar/11/stadium-of-the-future-takes-another-step-toward-development/
Also some mentions of timeline:
QuoteMayor Donna Deegan said Feb. 8 that her administration is on track to deliver the framework of a deal to renovate EverBank Stadium to the Jacksonville City Council by April or May.
[...]
Deegan said that once the framework is finalized, she plans to schedule public meetings for citizen input.
"I think it's going to be important to try to come up with a framework by April or May and try to bring that in for a landing before the fall," she said.
"The longer these things drag out, normally the more expensive they get and the more they go off the rails. And so I would really like to come to an agreement that everybody can feel good about and that we can move forward with sooner rather than later. And I think Council feels the same way."
First mention I've seen anywhere of a potential length of a new stadium lease.
30 years, per the JBJ.
Huge if true.
I honestly expected 20, maaayybe 25 max, with a refurb rather than ground-up new build.
Assuming it's accurate, that would keep the Jags in Jacksonville through 2058.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2024/05/01/jaguars-stadium-may-negotiations.html
^ Mayor Deegan was on First Coast Connect yesterday and was very positive about negotiations with the Jags indicating they were very accommodating to her non-financial priorities including support of the community. This was above her indicating the financial parts were also coming together better than most might think. Apparently, the entertainment district component is off the table with the stadium deal due to technical issues so that removes a chunk of money needs, I gather.
If I could read between the lines, the ask of the City may be a good bit under the $1 billion initially floated. Like all good negotiators, I am guessing the Jags put a much bigger ask out there than they really expected to get so that politicos will look good when a lower number is arrived at. That said, just as important, is who will be responsible for the inevitable cost overruns. The City needs to put that entirely on the Jags or the City will be exposed to much more than the initial ask. See JEA and its nuclear power plant deal debacle.
They did remove the Sports District from the proposal so that has to impacting the bottom-line figure they are getting. I expect it to be under $1B in that scenario.
Multiple outlets reporting a deal has been reached on stadium renovations and will be unveiled to City Council next week.
Here you go... this Tuesday at City Council:
QuoteThe Jaguars stadium renovation agreement will be presented at the next City Council meeting Tuesday.
Mayor Donna Deegan, lead negotiator Mike Weinstein and Jaguars President Mark Lamping will present the agreement at the beginning of the Tuesday meeting, according to a statement released from the city Wednesday.
"We have reached an agreement on the framework of a deal," Deegan said in a release. "The negotiating team is currently putting the final details on paper, and we will release that information as soon as it is available."...
....The $1.4 billion deal is not just one agreement, Weinstein told the Business Journal, it's eight or nine different agreements totaling 400 to 500 pages. Together those documents will comprise a 30-year agreement that lays out the financial obligations of both the city and the Jaguars, detail who is responsible for maintenance, insurance and security at the stadium and establish a community benefit agreement.
The community benefit agreement is something both the Jaguars and the city are interested in, negotiators say: While such agreements have been part of many NFL stadium agreements, Weinstein said he anticipates Jacksonville's being the largest in the NFL, setting the stage for the team to fund economic development outside of the stadium....
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2024/05/08/jaguars-stadium-agreement-ready.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=BN&utm_content=JA&ana=e_JA_BN&j=35308899&senddate=2024-05-08
^ How do you feel about a CBA being included?
Quote from: thelakelander on May 08, 2024, 12:48:04 PM
^ How do you feel about a CBA being included?
I think the devil will ultimately be in the details.
If the CBA mirrors that of other recent NFL agreements, it will likely be a $2-$3 million annual contribution by the team to a community benefit fund, overseen by a board made up of city officials, Jags officials, and community leaders. Some cities stipulate use for loans to small businesses, training programs, affordable housing initiatives, etc. Others leave it more vague, and hence, more easily manipulated by special interests.
Will be happy if it's truly used to build up the Eastside and benefit the local Jax community.
Will be less enthused if it's a promise to use DBE firms and pay workers $18/hour to build a luxury sports & entertainment district.
Either way, I hope City Council is savvy enough to know that a CBA isn't some altruistic idea the Jags came up with to help the community. Instead, it's become a standard part of nearly every single new stadium development asking for large amounts of public money. The Texans, Bills, Raiders, and Chiefs all have CBAs for their stadium projects. So do the Clippers, Bucks, etc.
^In this case, the push for a CBA came from the Eastside community. That push dates back to the Lot J days.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 08, 2024, 08:51:56 PM
^In this case, the push for a CBA came from the Eastside community. That push dates back to the Lot J days.
Will it include other areas such as the Northwest Quadrant where even larger areas are in need? There are such pockets all over Jax. Nothing against the Eastside and they clearly benefit being direct neighbors of the Jags so I get that. But, taxpayers all over Duval are chipping in so some funds should be spread about the entire county, it would seem.
Totally understand. I look forward to the resulting community dialogue next week.
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/jaguars-stadium-deal-framework-finalized-residents-concerned-impact-historic-neighborhoods/TOAUDF7RYJCIZNGHFWIBG3OD6A/
Some details starting to leak:
https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/breaking-sources-revealing-action-news-jaxs-ben-becker-details-jacksonvilles-stadium-deal/EWCBVOH3LZDSFBAT2I4QQ7FFDI/
QuoteThese include $625 million to be raised per side, for the City of Jacksonville and the Jaguars. Financing is still to be determined. $150 million will be in workforce money from the city geared toward the Eastside, with the Jaguars matching that figure.
One home game a year will remain in London with possibly two played every four years. NFL rules require every team to play one game overseas every four years. The rule right now is once every eight years, but it will go to every four years in 2025.
^ The math in this indicates this: $625 million x 2 = $1.25 billion, of which $150 million x 2, or $300 million, is "geared" for the Eastside, netting $950 million for the stadium.
With the original vision projected at $2 billion, not counting the Eastside, I take it an entertainment district would run $2 billion less $950 million for the stadium or another $1.05 billion. So, Khan wanted more for the entertainment district than the stadium? Lot J is looking like pocket change.
As noted before, my main concern is who is responsible for the inevitable cost overruns which can be substantial.
"Workforce money geared for the Eastside" sounds to me more like a guarantee that $300 million of the $1.25b will go to hiring workers from the Eastside for whatever stadium related projects they can work on, akin to how the Miller Electric Center work was handled.
The original estimates were for an up to $1.4 billion stadium plus an up to $668 million entertainment district, which is where $2b topline came from. But we will see tomorrow what the current picture looks like in terms of all that.
Will happily be proven wrong, but that $625 million 50/50 split seems highly implausible on the surface, particularly without a deal in place for a sports and entertainment district. If true without any weird strings attached, the city should sign it yesterday, as a true 50/50 public private split just hasn't happened with recent NFL stadium deals. Very curious to see what happens tomorrow.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 13, 2024, 07:45:58 PM
Will happily be proven wrong, but that $625 million 50/50 split seems highly implausible on the surface, particularly without a deal in place for a sports and entertainment district. If true without any weird strings attached, the city should sign it yesterday,
Plus tax.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 13, 2024, 07:26:36 PM
"Workforce money geared for the Eastside" sounds to me more like a guarantee that $300 million of the $1.25b will go to hiring workers from the Eastside for whatever stadium related projects they can work on, akin to how the Miller Electric Center work was handled.
No the CBA is much more than that. Hiring people at the stadium won't do much to combat displacement. The next few weeks will be entertaining.
As a side note, I have no real issue with them playing in Gainesville temporarily. The team and the city need to do a better job of promoting themselves as a regional attraction and this gives them a prime platform to do so.
I'm really hoping that all of the money & resources allocated to the Eastside won't be wasted with red tape. I understand the focus to lift up that area, but I feel like the billions of projects nearby will have more of a positive effect for the Eastside, than several Northside/Westside areas (that still don't have running water & sewer).
Our downtown is intended to be the economic powerhouse of our entire city.
^Keep in mind, the Eastside isn't downtown and has been redlined and disenfrachised dating back to a time when most of the city was still swamp and turpentine woods. It, along with NW Jax have gotten the short end of the investment stick in this town at a rate that no other community in this city can lay claim too.
Without intential Eastside investment and for specific strategic community elements, billions in random private investment by people who don't understand the community culture will simply displace and gentrify the neighborhood. They don't want to be another Brooklyn or LaVilla. What happened to those neighborhoods is not viewed as successful revitalization by long time Eastside residents. Thus, they are working to be proactive, which is something that's never really been done effectively in Jacksonville.
I suspect we're really going to find out what various council members and segments of the local population really think about investment in long disenfranchised communities within our city limits as opposed to the general lip service traditionally provided. Whatever happens, it will be interesting to see how this plays out. There's a chance that this could become a national model for withintrification and dealing with professional sports facilities and urban planning.
Quote from: landfall on May 13, 2024, 11:55:22 PM
As a side note, I have no real issue with them playing in Gainesville temporarily. The team and the city need to do a better job of promoting themselves as a regional attraction and this gives them a prime platform to do so.
I'm fine with any community, including Orlando. As long as they're locked into a longterm lease, its an opportunity to build the brand to a much larger population and future generation of fans.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 14, 2024, 11:12:06 AM
^Keep in mind, the Eastside isn't downtown and has been redlined and disenfrachised dating back to a time when most of the city was still swamp and turpentine woods. It, along with NW Jax have gotten the short end of the investment stick in this town at a rate that no other community in this city can lay claim too.
Without intential Eastside investment and for specific strategic community elements, billions in random private investment by people who don't understand the community culture will simply displace and gentrify the neighborhood. They don't want to be another Brooklyn or LaVilla. What happened to those neighborhoods is not viewed as successful revitalization by long time Eastside residents. Thus, they are working to be proactive, which is something that's never really been done effectively in Jacksonville.
I suspect we're really going to find out what various council members and segments of the local population really think about investment in long disenfranchised communities within our city limits as opposed to the general lip service traditionally provided. Whatever happens, it will be interesting to see how this plays out. There's a chance that this could become a national model for withintrification and dealing with professional sports facilities and urban planning.
Like I said, I hope it all works out to benefit the citizens there. My only
potential issue with the concept is that there are other parts of Jacksonville with plats, dating back to the 1910's & 1920's that still don't have basic city services. It's a question of priorities, in which all I want to highlight is that this plan can be used negatively if done without the proper checks & balances. It would be a disservice to the dozens of other areas that still require basic city services, within our city limits, for more than 100 years.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 14, 2024, 03:52:45 PM
Like I said, I hope it all works out to benefit the citizens there. My only potential issue with the concept is that there are other parts of Jacksonville with plats, dating back to the 1910's & 1920's that still don't have basic city services. It's a question of priorities, in which all I want to highlight is that this plan can be used negatively if done without the proper checks & balances. It would be a disservice to the dozens of other areas that still require basic city services, within our city limits, for more than 100 years.
I agree the other areas need help. In fact, they need more than $150-300 million. But I also acknowledge that it ain't all coming from this particular stadium project.
Drum roll...
Key point for me is Jags cover cost overruns. That could bring the deal back to 50/50 or better. No mention so far about the community funding.
Looks like construction starts by 2025 to finish in 4 years at 2028.
QuoteJaguars Stadium of the Future deal includes $775 million in public funding
...The framework of the deal, which Mayor Donna Deegan's office has been negotiating with the NFL team since August, includes a 50-50 split with the Jaguars for the estimated $1.25 billion cost of building the stadium. In addition, the city would provide $150 million for deferred maintenance and ongoing capital improvements.
The split for the total costs is 55%-45% with the city picking up the majority. The Jaguars will cover cost overruns.
Plans call for a four-year construction timeline with the stadium opening in 2028....
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2024/may/14/jaguars-stadium-of-the-future-deal-includes-775-million-in-public-funding/
Starting a new thread (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,37940.msg529117/topicseen.html?PHPSESSID=24f651fc68ece0459b1792604091a598#new) for the formal deal, since I figure we'll want to talk about it a bit more distinctly over the next few months from the previous discussions.