Anyone know what's going on?
I know they took out the pedestal for the confederate monument over the weekend, but most of the park is blocked off this morning with "James Weldon Johnson Renovation" signs, including the section adjacent to the library, and there's some fairly significant work going on.
I know there's a few million set aside for renovations, but I haven't seen or heard of any final plans.
Well I hope they replace the obelisk + statue with an exact replica of someone deemed "ok" by today's standards, and fast, or replace with something equally beautiful, and monumental.
I will puke all over Lenny Curry's desk if they replace it with contemporary art/"art in public places" crap. I don't know the guy's history, really didn't know who it was before all the hoopla, but because they made these changes the way they did, I will always still call it "Hemming Plaza". JWJ has his own park being built in LaVilla and I think it's shaping up to be quite cool.
Who wants to place bets on when the administration comes for the Andrew Jackson statue in the middle of a weekend night? He would be considered the devil by today's woke standards. We should rename our city as well, I suppose.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 15, 2023, 09:13:32 AM
Anyone know what's going on?
I know they took out the pedestal for the confederate monument over the weekend, but most of the park is blocked off this morning with "James Weldon Johnson Renovation" signs, including the section adjacent to the library, and there's some fairly significant work going on.
I know there's a few million set aside for renovations, but I haven't seen or heard of any final plans.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/05/14/remains-of-a-confederate-monument-removed-from-jacksonville-city-park/70216009007/
Nothing so far.. still some parties in debate it seems about it.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on May 15, 2023, 09:13:32 AM
Anyone know what's going on?
I know they took out the pedestal for the confederate monument over the weekend, but most of the park is blocked off this morning with "James Weldon Johnson Renovation" signs, including the section adjacent to the library, and there's some fairly significant work going on.
I know there's a few million set aside for renovations, but I haven't seen or heard of any final plans.
I know Walter Hood has been hired to redesign the park. However, that process hasn't been completed, so I have no idea why its being fenced off this early.
Aside from a walkthrough through the middle, the majority of the park is closed off for "COJ's JWJ Renovation Project."
Library side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zM1ZN63/0430557-B-D1-B9-404-A-A3-A4-CDE44305-BAE8.jpg)
Courthouse side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1QyRTcy/A360-CA85-5698-4982-908-D-12-D40-E46-E329.jpg)
Certainly hope this doesn't end up like the Friendship Park fiasco, where a perfectly good, serviceable park is closed prematurely while the city twiddles its thumbs for years about next steps.
Quote from: simms3 on May 15, 2023, 09:33:26 AM
Well I hope they replace the obelisk + statue with an exact replica of someone deemed "ok" by today's standards, and fast, or replace with something equally beautiful, and monumental.
I will puke all over Lenny Curry's desk if they replace it with contemporary art/"art in public places" crap. I don't know the guy's history, really didn't know who it was before all the hoopla, but because they made these changes the way they did, I will always still call it "Hemming Plaza". JWJ has his own park being built in LaVilla and I think it's shaping up to be quite cool.
Who wants to place bets on when the administration comes for the Andrew Jackson statue in the middle of a weekend night? He would be considered the devil by today's woke standards. We should rename our city as well, I suppose.
To me, you kind of need to take these things on a case-by-base basis, accounting for their context.
In this specific case, it feels fairly common sense that a statue clearly celebrating the Confederacy has no business being the centerpiece of a public plaza opening up to City Hall and the Federal Courthouse.
Would you want to be a minority walking into court or into a City Council meeting beneath a monument celebrating "Our Heroes" who fought to maintain slavery, with a message to them saying "Your Glory Shall not be Forgotten."
Sends the totally wrong signal that the city implicitly supports Confederate ideals, and as Ennis has pointed out over the years, doesn't even do a great job matching the true historical context of Jacksonville.
Where it does belong is in a museum, alongside the full context.
In terms of potential replacements, I would absolutely love something like the Wichita lunch counter/sit-in statue, commemorating Ax Handle Saturday. Would love a Jake Godbold statue too.
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5f479a7f606ac249e937abb1/t/601d4e55eadfc50c311fc9d3/1612537396585/Dockum+Sculpture.png)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5c9bc910d74562cd70664fab/1616519828512-X175YS0BX3SX8PTPRJNE/2000---Wichita.jpg)
^That's a pretty cool sculpture. With JWJ Park, the real JWJ would roll over in his grave to think that we'd named this space after him. It will be interesting to see what they do here. I just hope that it doesn't take away from LaVilla's place in history and LEVS Park itself.
Furthermore, I'd hope as a part of the redesign, we'd invest a significant part of this time redesigning the outer square. No matter what is done with this park, it won't achieve a great level of vibrancy until it is reintegrated with the surrounding land uses and closed off storefronts (now being used for ground level office space).
Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2023, 10:38:04 AM
^That's a pretty cool sculpture.
What I love about it is that it's interactive and sparks important conversation.
Instead of just passively looking up at something, the statue invites you (and your friends/family) to sit down at the empty stools and put yourself into the shoes of those participating in the sit-in.
Lots of really powerful historic imagery from Jax sit-ins that could be used.
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/0775cf_c559703e1c6342aabc52099f766a183f~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_560,h_400,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/0775cf_c559703e1c6342aabc52099f766a183f~mv2.jpg)
(https://snipboard.io/Po7gE8.jpg)
Speaking strictly about this specific statue, I don't think it's a coincidence that one of the ugliest, most shameful days in city history took place under the same statue.
(https://snipboard.io/4AlFXW.jpg)
(https://snipboard.io/DvzP2W.jpg)
Nor do I think it's coincidence that - despite being front-page news in the New York Times and getting significant coverage in the LA Times and Life Magazine - a city proudly bearing a Confederate statute in front of its courthouse and city hall would bury coverage of the story locally and fail to meaningfully bring anyone to justice for the atrocities.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/history/2020/08/21/ax-handle-saturday-front-page-news-new-york-times-but-not-times-union/5620461002/
Does Jacksonville need to be renamed? Of course not.
Is it overly "woke" to suggest that maybe such a statue is in conflict with what we want to be as a city and the true inclusion and equity we want to provide to all citizens? I don't buy that.
Common sense on this one.
^The park is a good place to commemorate 1960s civil rights history. Moreso that than JWJ. Probably the most direct link to JWJ and that park is his dad once being employed at the hotel overlooking the park. But not sold that memorializing servitude is the way to go.
Per park staff, they're doing some fairly significant renovations to the fountains over the next two weeks.
Which would seem to suggest that the fountains are staying in the redesign?
Quote from: simms3 on May 15, 2023, 09:33:26 AMWho wants to place bets on when the administration comes for the Andrew Jackson statue in the middle of a weekend night? He would be considered the devil by today's woke standards. We should rename our city as well, I suppose.
Both of these should happen. Immediately.
And no, I'm not joking.
Quote from: iMarvin on May 16, 2023, 12:28:37 AM
Quote from: simms3 on May 15, 2023, 09:33:26 AMWe should rename our city as well, I suppose.
[This] should happen. Immediately.
And no, I'm not joking.
To me, the meaning and power of language has the ability to evolve far beyond its original etymology. Yes, the city was named after Andrew Jackson. But if you say "Jacksonville, Florida" to 100 random people on the streets, what's the first image that pops to mind? The second? The third? The hundredth? I virtually guarantee it's not the man that the city was arbitrarily named after 201 years ago. Collectively, the word "Jacksonville" has established its own meaning and identity over the centuries, far outside of Andrew Jackson, to the point that - besides in the history books - the namesake and the city are almost completely divorced. It's like an Atomic Fireball. What kid pops an atomic fireball in their mouth and thinks, "man, it feels wrong to eat this cinnamon candy because the product was launched in the 1950s in the wake of the bombing of Hiroshima?" Should the candy be renamed? Probably. But its developed its own identity divorced from the etymology.
In the same way, in a perfect world, would the city be named after a dude who has such a shithead to Native Americans? Of course not. But is it worth flushing 201 years of collective identity and history as a city down the drain to correct something that maybe 1% of the population even actively thinks about on an annual basis? I'd argue that's like curing a common cold with an atomic weapon.
From a purely pragmatic standpoint, 13 years later, our city hasn't even figured out how to properly renamed FCCJ. The absolutely colossal undertaking that would be involved to change every street sign, postal address, letterhead, school and public facility name, etc. would set us back 20 years. From a budget perspective, it would make jail relocation seem cheap.
All that said, in regards to the statue, that's a different thing. You see the statue, you immediately think of Andrew Jackson. It has no other meaning. It's a statue celebrating Andrew Jackson. That one is much more open to debate, in my opinion.
I think it wouldn't be too difficult to rename Jacksonville to Jax. If you write 'Jax, FL' on a letter, it will still be sent to Jacksonville. Businesses could still be named after Jacksonville, similar to how businesses name themselves Cowford. 'Jax' is far enough from 'Jacksonville' that it would appease people who don't like the name, yet close enough for a smooth transition. I've also met people from all over the country who recognize the region as 'Jax', especially truckers, pilots, and friends who work in logistics.
My only problem with the name 'Jacksonville' is that there are around 20 other Jacksonvilles in the county. In my opinion, it's not worth the effort, but I believe it's doable.
Quote from: iMarvin on May 16, 2023, 12:28:37 AM
Quote from: simms3 on May 15, 2023, 09:33:26 AMWho wants to place bets on when the administration comes for the Andrew Jackson statue in the middle of a weekend night? He would be considered the devil by today's woke standards. We should rename our city as well, I suppose.
Both of these should happen. Immediately.
And no, I'm not joking.
I know your type exists and is growing rapidly in numbers. Nothing is outrageous, considered hyperbole, or off the table anymore, which is why those of us opposed to your viewpoints should be just as vocal as y'all are.
Whatever the city does, it should be a vote. The way Lenny did his thing by mandate and in the dead of night was just not cool. The way they handled the renaming of Lee High to Riverside High was actually a very good and fair process. It's hard to dispute an outcome forever and ever if it is handled well and the actual constituents are consulted.
Removing things and renaming prominent things in the "heat of the mob" moment without letting a conversation happen just creates bitterness and cynism (as if there isn't already enough). It doesn't "heal wounds" but rather creates new ones or deepens existing ones.
The people that scream the loudest about being offended today don't provide any evidence that they wouldn't have been part of the mob on the wrong side of history in prior generations. There's a lack of knowledge of history and a lack of deep thinking that exists with today's outrage mentality. We shouldn't ever reward this mentality or inferior culture we have going today with rash decisions, but instead should be even more guarded against making rash decisions, really beckoning rational and reasonable conversation (of all sides) instead.
I've been pretty vocal about the Confederate monuments, but I never cared about most of the other statues, names, etc. The issue is that Confederate stuff is exclusively a product of Jim Crow. It has little to do with the Civil War; they were all established decades after the war specifically to celebrate the Confederate myth as a symbol of segregation and repression. Regardless of what anyone thinks about them, or how artistically valuable they are, that's their real history.
This is different than most other commemorations. Those are largely put up because the subject had some actual significance, generally local significance. I'm not interested in going on a crusade to rid the city of mentions of every ostensible bad guy from history, and I doubt many other people are either. Andrew Jackson is a bit different as his legacy is so horrible. But even there, we don't have schools and statues dedicated to him because he was horrible, we have them because he's who the city was named after.
I'm so confused about what's going on at JWJ.
It sure looks like (and sounds like) the fountains are being ripped out entirely.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qvwKfcm/93-BA9-C47-673-F-4-BC1-88-F4-F181525-C3-E8-E.jpg)
Aren't there renovation plans available to the public?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on May 22, 2023, 01:28:35 PM
Aren't there renovation plans available to the public?
I've heard so many conflicting things.
Fountains are being repaired vs. fountains are being ripped out.
Park design is in progress vs. park design is complete.
Even the park staff seem confused.
Crazy that nothing has been directly communicated to the public about the closure of a major downtown park/plaza.
^ Wouldn't plans for this be public record via the bidding process, if not elsewhere?
Great planning, but typical, James Weldon Johnson Park, Friendship Park, and Lenny's Lawn will all be closed for construction at the same time. Perhaps the Fountain will open in July (but not for the Independence Day fireworks and festivities), but when will Phase 2 start?
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on May 22, 2023, 05:33:26 PM
^ Wouldn't plans for this be public record via the bidding process, if not elsewhere?
Could the plans have been BID by the committee's given oversight of the projects? (If within their own funds?) Given it's smaller size? That is odd.
Perhaps the journalism arm of The Jaxson could pursue the search for plans.
And while they're at it, plans for the Latham project at the beach.
Fountain that's been there since before Reagan was elected now totally gone.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVdgJGrL/449203-C4-14-C5-4-C3-F-A1-DF-0087-F086-A44-D.jpg)
Wild that the city has essentially closed JWJ, the oldest and most historic park in the city, with no public notice or details.
https://jamesweldonjohnsonpark.org/news/fojwjpk-strategic-plan/
From 7/2022 but kind of interesting language used. Almost implied they have control over the future of the site. Not sure if anyone attended these or know anything more recent than this, but thought this was kind of interesting.. and I'm guessing where to start for answers.
^ I surfed their website reasonably well and not only did not find any outcome of their "strategic plan" posted but also no mention whatsoever of substantial construction going on at the park even though they have a page devoted to "news."
Further, it looks like they have scheduled events almost daily with no mention of interference from construction. Wonder how the jazz festival crowd will impact the area this weekend.
While it may be a nonprofit responsible for the park, as a public property they should still have to share better what they are up to. I notice their board includes at least one public official, the head of parks.
I guess someone needs to post something on Twitter and have the usual Jaxpol reporters promote it. Seems to be the only way to get answers about anything being done locally in this city.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2022/jul/27/nonprofit-group-completes-plan-for-james-weldon-johnson-park/
Perhaps a follow up with Mike Mendenhall if anyone knows of how to reach him. He reported on the same press release back in 2022.
I have a feeling that the grant that was given to this organization is paying for the renovation, and where ever that grant was given (I can't find it) probably has the plans & overall project. For those more savvy at grant finding, maybe that's how to find it online.
Has anyone seen a plan yet by any chance?
I continue to be dumbfounded by this one.
The most scenic part of the existing park/plaza, the fountains and planters, were ripped out, filled in, and replaced with sod surrounded by chain-linked fence.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 06, 2023, 01:07:41 PM
Has anyone seen a plan yet by any chance?
I continue to be dumbfounded by this one.
The most scenic part of the existing park/plaza, the fountains and planters, were ripped out, filled in, and replaced with sod surrounded by chain-linked fence.
I have been told there will be an opportunity for the public to contribute to the long-term vision very soon. The current changes fit with the general vision that was developed a few years ago.
What was the vision developed a few years ago?
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 26, 2023, 09:36:32 AM
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2022/jul/27/nonprofit-group-completes-plan-for-james-weldon-johnson-park/
Perhaps a follow up with Mike Mendenhall if anyone knows of how to reach him. He reported on the same press release back in 2022.
I have a feeling that the grant that was given to this organization is paying for the renovation, and where ever that grant was given (I can't find it) probably has the plans & overall project. For those more savvy at grant finding, maybe that's how to find it online.
I was on the African-American Cultural and Historical Grant review panel. I don't recall this application having any plans in our review material last January/February. The COJ application was for funding to assist with the planning of revamping this park, not funds for construction of a plan already developed.
At the time, there was $30 million or so in this grant program that would be split among the top applicants. So only the top #54 applications were awarded funds. Originally, this park project (Ranked #104) did not make the cut. However, another $30 million was later added to this grant program (COVID money). So this park planning process ended up getting funded, along with several other projects across the state.
Here are the local projects that made the first cut. This article also has the full list of projects, their rank and funding request:
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/historic-sites-awarded-restoration-funds/
Did they start restoration on the Stanton ?
Quote from: thelakelander on July 06, 2023, 10:23:21 PM
What was the vision developed a few years ago?
one where people said they wanted grassy areas - of course that was in place of some of the hardscape pavers, not the fountains :)
Is anyone (Jax Today?) pursuing a Public Records Request for the plans?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 07, 2023, 11:28:36 AM
Is anyone (Jax Today?) pursuing a Public Records Request for the plans?
I'd imagine you can simply speak with Friends of JWJ and they'll tell you. These aren't state secrets.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 07, 2023, 10:36:43 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 06, 2023, 10:23:21 PM
What was the vision developed a few years ago?
one where people said they wanted grassy areas - of course that was in place of some of the hardscape pavers, not the fountains :)
Was there a concept plan created?
Quote from: fsu813 on July 07, 2023, 03:36:29 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 07, 2023, 11:28:36 AM
Is anyone (Jax Today?) pursuing a Public Records Request for the plans?
I'd imagine you can simply speak with Friends of JWJ and they'll tell you. These aren't state secrets.
I've tried.
Based on the conflicting answers I get depending on the day and the person, I don't get the sense that most of the staff has a clue about the big picture.
It may not be a state secret, but the whole thing has just been handled so strangely. Oldest park in the city undergoing major changes with no public announcements. Friends of JWJ haven't even acknowledged the changes on their website or social platforms.
It's not minor work either.
The fountains, maybe the most prominent features of the park, and features that have literally been there for 50 years, were demolished without a peep and replaced with fenced-off leftover scraps from Lenny's Lawn. Whole thing has just been bizarre. Wouldn't particularly care if not for the fact that it's made the only staffed downtown park actively worse for no clearly understandable reason.
How about talking with one of the contractors on site and working backwards from there? Who hired them and is directing them? How can you contact that person(s)?
Alternative, how about calling the head of the parks department if this is considered a park?
Follow the yellow (red?) brick road to the wizard behind the changes 8).
Quote from: simms3 on May 17, 2023, 05:23:08 PM
The people that scream the loudest about being offended today don't provide any evidence that they wouldn't have been part of the mob on the wrong side of history in prior generations.
This has to be, without a doubt, the single stupidest thing I've read all year.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 07, 2023, 09:13:00 AM
Did they start restoration on the Stanton ?
They put a new roof on the building a few months ago.
Contacted my CM asking for info and if it could be publicized. Hopefully they'll respond
Quote from: fsu813 on July 07, 2023, 03:36:29 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 07, 2023, 11:28:36 AM
Is anyone (Jax Today?) pursuing a Public Records Request for the plans?
I'd imagine you can simply speak with Friends of JWJ and they'll tell you. These aren't state secrets.
Talked with Friends of JWB. A pot of money had to be used by X date, so they used it to remove the fountains and replace with grass. Fountains were expensive to maintain, weren't thought to be in the parks future. Fencing will leave soon, after grass establishes itself a bit. No final design has been decided upon.
LOL, that's not a good way to plan public spaces.....
Pot of money + maintenance required = demolish
Quote from: thelakelander on July 10, 2023, 12:29:16 PM
LOL, that's not a good way to plan public spaces.....
"We are required to spend this pot of money by X date despite the lack of sufficient planning" has blown up everything from park projects to California's high speed rail project. Awful.
Quote from: fsu813 on July 10, 2023, 12:01:21 PM
Talked with Friends of JWB. A pot of money had to be used by X date, so they used it to remove the fountains and replace with grass. Fountains were expensive to maintain, weren't thought to be in the parks future. Fencing will leave soon, after grass establishes itself a bit. No final design has been decided upon.
I will say that this doesn't seem all that bad to me. The space, being as constrained as it is, is probably better utilized for more active uses, there can be fountains at other urban parks.
That is truly strange logic.
Quote from: Steve on July 10, 2023, 01:32:11 PM
That is truly strange logic.
How so?
Final plan isn't set yet. They know the fountains will be gone. They have $ to spend by X date. They're spending it on removing the fountains now, in lieu of waiting on the final design to be announced. Dirt and sod are cheap to install, easily changed to whatever the final design calls for.
Quote from: fsu813 on July 10, 2023, 02:25:42 PM
Quote from: Steve on July 10, 2023, 01:32:11 PM
That is truly strange logic.
How so?
Final plan isn't set yet. They know the fountains will be gone. They have $ to spend by X date. They're spending it on removing the fountains now, in lieu of waiting on the final design to be announced. Dirt and sod are cheap to install, easily changed to whatever the final design calls for.
Thanks for the info!
My issue with the removal of the fountains is the same issue I have with numerous downtown projects.
The fountains were in place, functional, had been there for 50 years, and were a serving a purpose in beautifying the park.
And now, they have been cheaply grassed over, removing an amenity from the urban fabric for a lengthy period of time
before a final plan is in place for how to replace them.
See:
- Removing the Landing and its 30 small businesses years before necessary, with no plan in place for the site.
- Removing the Courthouse and Annex 5 years ago to make way for development of the site; it's still a grass lawn
- Allowing River City Brewing to be demolished without a development agreement for the site in place; still no concrete plan for replacement
- Allowing the unchecked demolition of the old Greyhound station without a concrete plan in place; will be a surface parking lot for years
- Allowing Welcome to Rockville to leave Jacksonville in 2019 to make way for Lot J construction; still no deal in place
- Allowing Captain Sandy to demolish historic building stock in LaVilla for a speculative new restaurant; building is gone, restaurant will never materialize
- Allowing the full demolition of the Ford plant without an agreed upon plan on what will replace it; building gone
- Gutting and closing Friendship Park OVER FOUR YEARS AGO with no plan on how to quickly reopen it and no budget for St. Johns Park
- Ripping the bandshell down in Metro Park because budget allowed and effectively closing the park to the public; still no formal plan for Met Park
They're only fountains, maybe I'm an isolated use case of a guy who enjoyed sitting near them multiple times a week to work, and in a vacuum, it's not the biggest deal in the world. My personal beef is that it's just part of a much larger city pattern of taking amenities offline and preventing taxpayers from enjoying them, often for years at a time, without a plan for improvement. Our downtown would be significantly more vibrant if we simply waited until a final plan was in place and ready to roll before making way for the wrecking ball. The fountains were nice, the patchy grass looks cheap and goofy with or without a fence and a downgrade to the space, and I'll happily eat my laptop if we're not stuck looking at said grass for years to come while a final plan is decided upon.
Would have rather seen JWJ invest those surplus dollars into a short-term improvement to the park, rather than rushing to demolish an existing feature, even if it wasn't a part of the long-term plans.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 11, 2023, 09:16:16 AM
- Removing the Landing and its 30 small businesses years before necessary, with no plan in place for the site.
- Removing the Courthouse and Annex 5 years ago to make way for development of the site; it's still a grass lawn
- Allowing River City Brewing to be demolished without a development agreement for the site in place; still no concrete plan for replacement
- Allowing the unchecked demolition of the old Greyhound station without a concrete plan in place; will be a surface parking lot for years
- Allowing Welcome to Rockville to leave Jacksonville in 2019 to make way for Lot J construction; still no deal in place
- Allowing Captain Sandy to demolish historic building stock in LaVilla for a speculative new restaurant; building is gone, restaurant will never materialize
- Allowing the full demolition of the Ford plant without an agreed upon plan on what will replace it; building gone
- Gutting and closing Friendship Park OVER FOUR YEARS AGO with no plan on how to quickly reopen it and no budget for St. Johns Park
- Ripping the bandshell down in Metro Park because budget allowed and effectively closing the park to the public; still no formal plan for Met Park
This needs to be projected on the side of city hall. Demo permits need to be tied to construction permits. If you don't have a plan, you can't level the site and let it sit for years. It's been proposed before that fees need to be imposed on these projects that just let the property sit for years and I agree.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 10, 2023, 01:30:40 PM
Quote from: fsu813 on July 10, 2023, 12:01:21 PM
Talked with Friends of JWB. A pot of money had to be used by X date, so they used it to remove the fountains and replace with grass. Fountains were expensive to maintain, weren't thought to be in the parks future. Fencing will leave soon, after grass establishes itself a bit. No final design has been decided upon.
I will say that this doesn't seem all that bad to me. The space, being as constrained as it is, is probably better utilized for more active uses, there can be fountains at other urban parks.
The same was said about destroying Kids Kampus because of maintenance costs. +10 years have passed and still dreaming of a replacement. Don't get suckered in by traditional downtown Jax revitalization excuse making! :-)
Quote from: thelakelander on July 11, 2023, 12:52:37 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 10, 2023, 01:30:40 PM
Quote from: fsu813 on July 10, 2023, 12:01:21 PM
Talked with Friends of JWB. A pot of money had to be used by X date, so they used it to remove the fountains and replace with grass. Fountains were expensive to maintain, weren't thought to be in the parks future. Fencing will leave soon, after grass establishes itself a bit. No final design has been decided upon.
I will say that this doesn't seem all that bad to me. The space, being as constrained as it is, is probably better utilized for more active uses, there can be fountains at other urban parks.
The same was said about destroying Kids Kampus because of maintenance costs. +10 years have passed and still dreaming of a replacement. Don't get suckered in by traditional downtown Jax revitalization excuse making! :-)
Don't get me wrong here. Kids Kampus was a lot more than a fountain, and more active than the idea of an event lawn that was to replace it. But we absolutely should get a move on with a real improvement plan for JWJ, and funding for it and the other urban parks. I'm curious what that might actually look like since it was a big mention during the mayor's campaign.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 11, 2023, 10:34:32 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 11, 2023, 09:16:16 AM
- Removing the Landing and its 30 small businesses years before necessary, with no plan in place for the site.
- Removing the Courthouse and Annex 5 years ago to make way for development of the site; it's still a grass lawn
- Allowing River City Brewing to be demolished without a development agreement for the site in place; still no concrete plan for replacement
- Allowing the unchecked demolition of the old Greyhound station without a concrete plan in place; will be a surface parking lot for years
- Allowing Welcome to Rockville to leave Jacksonville in 2019 to make way for Lot J construction; still no deal in place
- Allowing Captain Sandy to demolish historic building stock in LaVilla for a speculative new restaurant; building is gone, restaurant will never materialize
- Allowing the full demolition of the Ford plant without an agreed upon plan on what will replace it; building gone
- Gutting and closing Friendship Park OVER FOUR YEARS AGO with no plan on how to quickly reopen it and no budget for St. Johns Park
- Ripping the bandshell down in Metro Park because budget allowed and effectively closing the park to the public; still no formal plan for Met Park
This needs to be projected on the side of city hall. Demo permits need to be tied to construction permits. If you don't have a plan, you can't level the site and let it sit for years. It's been proposed before that fees need to be imposed on these projects that just let the property sit for years and I agree.
But yes, absolutely. That is also a fair point that they could have used the money for other improvements instead of removing the fountain, and I wonder if there's a particular reason why the fountains were the top choice here.
I believe with proper planning, things like removing a fountain without public input.......because it is too expensive to maintain, is a horrible way to plan and implement. It suggests we're flying by the seat of our pants, as opposed to having a cohesive vision and making sure that everything we do is an incremental step in achieving that vision.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 11, 2023, 09:16:16 AM
Quote from: fsu813 on July 10, 2023, 02:25:42 PM
Quote from: Steve on July 10, 2023, 01:32:11 PM
That is truly strange logic.
How so?
Final plan isn't set yet. They know the fountains will be gone. They have $ to spend by X date. They're spending it on removing the fountains now, in lieu of waiting on the final design to be announced. Dirt and sod are cheap to install, easily changed to whatever the final design calls for.
Thanks for the info!
My issue with the removal of the fountains is the same issue I have with numerous downtown projects.
The fountains were in place, functional, had been there for 50 years, and were a serving a purpose in beautifying the park.
And now, they have been cheaply grassed over, removing an amenity from the urban fabric for a lengthy period of time before a final plan is in place for how to replace them.
See:
- Removing the Landing and its 30 small businesses years before necessary, with no plan in place for the site.
- Removing the Courthouse and Annex 5 years ago to make way for development of the site; it's still a grass lawn
- Allowing River City Brewing to be demolished without a development agreement for the site in place; still no concrete plan for replacement
- Allowing the unchecked demolition of the old Greyhound station without a concrete plan in place; will be a surface parking lot for years
- Allowing Welcome to Rockville to leave Jacksonville in 2019 to make way for Lot J construction; still no deal in place
- Allowing Captain Sandy to demolish historic building stock in LaVilla for a speculative new restaurant; building is gone, restaurant will never materialize
- Allowing the full demolition of the Ford plant without an agreed upon plan on what will replace it; building gone
- Gutting and closing Friendship Park OVER FOUR YEARS AGO with no plan on how to quickly reopen it and no budget for St. Johns Park
- Ripping the bandshell down in Metro Park because budget allowed and effectively closing the park to the public; still no formal plan for Met Park
They're only fountains, maybe I'm an isolated use case of a guy who enjoyed sitting near them multiple times a week to work, and in a vacuum, it's not the biggest deal in the world. My personal beef is that it's just part of a much larger city pattern of taking amenities offline and preventing taxpayers from enjoying them, often for years at a time, without a plan for improvement. Our downtown would be significantly more vibrant if we simply waited until a final plan was in place and ready to roll before making way for the wrecking ball. The fountains were nice, the patchy grass looks cheap and goofy with or without a fence and a downgrade to the space, and I'll happily eat my laptop if we're not stuck looking at said grass for years to come while a final plan is decided upon.
Would have rather seen JWJ invest those surplus dollars into a short-term improvement to the park, rather than rushing to demolish an existing feature, even if it wasn't a part of the long-term plans.
This is a huge problem and one of the largest reasons for downtown's slow revitalization. How much public money has been spent with many of these demolitions? How much foot traffic and jobs have we lost because of these demolitions? Sometimes, it's just better to do nothing, if you don't know what you're doing. At least, these spaces would be there for someone who would know what they are doing.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 11, 2023, 10:34:32 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 11, 2023, 09:16:16 AM
- Removing the Landing and its 30 small businesses years before necessary, with no plan in place for the site.
- Removing the Courthouse and Annex 5 years ago to make way for development of the site; it's still a grass lawn
- Allowing River City Brewing to be demolished without a development agreement for the site in place; still no concrete plan for replacement
- Allowing the unchecked demolition of the old Greyhound station without a concrete plan in place; will be a surface parking lot for years
- Allowing Welcome to Rockville to leave Jacksonville in 2019 to make way for Lot J construction; still no deal in place
- Allowing Captain Sandy to demolish historic building stock in LaVilla for a speculative new restaurant; building is gone, restaurant will never materialize
- Allowing the full demolition of the Ford plant without an agreed upon plan on what will replace it; building gone
- Gutting and closing Friendship Park OVER FOUR YEARS AGO with no plan on how to quickly reopen it and no budget for St. Johns Park
- Ripping the bandshell down in Metro Park because budget allowed and effectively closing the park to the public; still no formal plan for Met Park
This needs to be projected on the side of city hall. Demo permits need to be tied to construction permits. If you don't have a plan, you can't level the site and let it sit for years. It's been proposed before that fees need to be imposed on these projects that just let the property sit for years and I agree.
Agreed! I'm still FLOORED that we allowed Captain Sandy to come in and buy some very difficult restoration project sight unseen, then complain it's too difficult and "need to demolish it", get those permits. And the worst part about it, is you're right, we'll never see her restaurant there, ever. I mean it's surrounded by other buildings surrounded by concertina wire, and a big ass hulking courthouse. It's her fault if that was the first place she looked and she truly bought it sight unseen. She should have had a better broker (or one at all), or talked to someone to figure out where she might have better luck opening a fancy yacht-themed restaurant.
Good Lord. One day that building was going to be justified. Far from today, now never. We've got like 3 original buildings left in LaVilla.
Meanwhile, over in Avondale I've got about three REAL teardowns on my block that the crazies won't let even so much as a fly land on, so they'll just remain looking like s**t and dragging down our property values (and knocking these three crackhouses down won't endanger the population of "historic" 1930s-1950s homes in the area). It's amazing the difference - this city and certain organizations within it punish the hell out of residential homeowners, but treat commercial investors completely opposite in downtown by letting them knock down truly historic and unique "fabric making/identity making" buildings for lowest and worst use replacements.
^^^
Simms3 can you post a picture of these three teardowns?
Quote from: vicupstate on July 12, 2023, 06:31:44 AM
^^^
Simms3 can you post a picture of these three teardowns?
This should be good.
I stand corrected.
Big upgrade to the existing 50-year old fountains.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpH570j6/FA5-CC362-62-B5-4468-B44-A-C071-C817-C034.jpg)
Can't you just smell the vibrancy and the focused, incremental progress that can only come from having a unified plan?
We're all playing checkers.
The city is playing chess.
^Lol.....what is this?!
How did we end up with a vacant lot in a public park? How many years are we out from an actual park renovation? Is it in the CIP yet?
That looks terrible. I'll never understand how this city keeps making the same mistakes.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2023, 02:02:58 PM
How many years are we out from an actual park renovation? Is it in the CIP yet?
There's $5 million in the CIP for FY 26-27 to "provide a redesign of the park." That's it.
Low budget for a space that size, unless its going to be something basic and not on the level of what our peer cities have been spending in their downtown spaces. So we're likely looking at this vacant patch of grass for the next four to five years. I'd rather them heavily landscape it, as it would look better than a lawn. However, that would mean we'd have to maintain the landscaping.
Is the $5M just for the design or the construction? That's nothing for construction.
Says construction in the CIP. Design was $500,000 in a "Prior FY Budget" (in addition to $750,000 in construction), with another $1,000,000 in construction beyond 5 years.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 25, 2023, 01:04:46 PM
I stand corrected.
Big upgrade to the existing 50-year old fountains.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpH570j6/FA5-CC362-62-B5-4468-B44-A-C071-C817-C034.jpg)
Can't you just smell the vibrancy and the focused, incremental progress that can only come from having a unified plan?
We're all playing checkers.
The city is playing chess.
:o ??? ::) ;D Rofl... this is SOOOOO Jacksonville ... :-[ :'( :-\ >:( :(
Sad; so, so very very sad. And yes, SO Jacksonville. No organization, planning, or even thought.
The caterpillar sculpture rivals Derp in magnificence!
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 25, 2023, 02:19:26 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2023, 02:02:58 PM
How many years are we out from an actual park renovation? Is it in the CIP yet?
There's $5 million in the CIP for FY 26-27 to "provide a redesign of the park." That's it.
That can very easily change.
Quote from: fsu813 on July 25, 2023, 08:04:15 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 25, 2023, 02:19:26 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2023, 02:02:58 PM
How many years are we out from an actual park renovation? Is it in the CIP yet?
There's $5 million in the CIP for FY 26-27 to "provide a redesign of the park." That's it.
That can very easily change.
RiversEdge Park -> Supposed to open in 2022; delayed to December 2024
Friendship Fountain -> Closing in on four years fenced off; no funding for actual park
Musical Heritage Park -> Designs in hand since 2017; no progress on park
Riverfront Plaza -> DIA already letting us know that the two year estimate for Phase 1 construction may be a smite too aggressive
Lift Every Voice and Sing Park -> behind schedule
RAM Skate Park -> behind schedule
Met Park -> effectively closed for years
Main Street Pocket Park -> LOL
I'll believe it when I see it.
We need to have some damn pride in our city.
I mean, this is right on the front steps of City Hall. Perhaps the most important block in the city.
Would Savannah allow something like this? St. Augustine? Nashville? Charlotte?
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpH570j6/FA5-CC362-62-B5-4468-B44-A-C071-C817-C034.jpg)
^ Growing up in Jax, aside from the statue and calling it Hemming Park, I always thought the design from the 1960's was decent. Never understood why they ripped up the green spaces and paved over everything multiple times. Maybe we just need to stop being so fancy and go back to simpler times. Those days, the park had a certain "center of a small town" feel to it that was very approachable. Biggest issue I recall was a large population of pigeons :).
Pictures are below are from various time periods to give you a feel for the ambiance that made it into the 60's which appears, to me, to be the first, and maybe, second pictures. The aerial in the third picture claims to be from the 1950's.
(https://www.jacksonville.com/gcdn/authoring/2016/08/28/NFTU/ghows-LK-41f073b4-6159-48e6-9bd5-46d9e70ce81f-9eb64029.jpeg)
(https://jaxpubliclibrary.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/api/singleitem/image/p15240coll4/37/default.jpg)
(https://vintagejacksonville.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/000233Web.jpg)
(https://fcit.usf.edu/florida/photos/cities/jax/jax1/photos/jax125.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cb/04/0a/cb040adb0f4f81116cbfdde35efa9631.jpg)
(https://www.floridamemory.com/fpc/postcard/pc0052a.jpg)
(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/KD6KGX/delius-lived-in-jacksonville-when-young-skyline-and-hemming-park-from-KD6KGX.jpg)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52d412ade4b0a11bd9e7a808/1391611772824-CH8RYJIDS6VSBRJ4HZZR/Hemming+Plaza+LOC.jpg)
^Great photos!
And great point about Hemming, at the time, having that "center of a small town" feel.
That's another thing that we're really kind of failing to consider when we talk about downtown redevelopment.
Where do we envision our central civic space being amongst all these downtown plans?
Hemming served this purpose in past decades, playing host to multiple presidents and acting as our city's central town square.
(https://www.floridamemory.com/fpc/reference/rc19366.jpg)
(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2022/05/05/_141442430250yearsJohnson_t1100.jpg)
(https://snipboard.io/M5IZ2P.jpg)
Once the Landing was built, the Landing's perfectly located riverfront central courtyard effectively became our new "town square." It's where major political speeches took place. It's where the 1996 Olympic Torch came through on its way to Atlanta. It's where people celebrated holidays and huge city milestones like the city being awarded an NFL franchise.
(https://www.jacksonville.com/gcdn/authoring/2017/06/22/NFTU/ghows_image-LK-e3db37d4-4719-4e0b-be91-e7c9f4d4fe5d.jpeg)
(https://snipboard.io/8Pgzca.jpg)
(https://snipboard.io/PeE9JV.jpg)
Where will our central civic space be in five years when all of this work is (hopefully) completed? Does the city know? Does the DIA know? Is the necessary infrastructure being put in place to accommodate it?
P.S. Another semi-iconic piece of James Weldon Johnson park removed because it didn't fit the mysterious "long-term vision" that someone or another has for James Weldon Johnson Park, but hasn't shared with the public.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/07/26/mosh-museum-mouth-sculpture-moves-to-wayne-woods-jacksonville-home/70470984007/
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 25, 2023, 09:07:55 PM
RiversEdge Park -> Supposed to open in 2022; delayed to December 2024
Friendship Fountain -> Closing in on four years fenced off; no funding for actual park
Musical Heritage Park -> Designs in hand since 2017; no progress on park
Riverfront Plaza -> DIA already letting us know that the two year estimate for Phase 1 construction may be a smite too aggressive
Lift Every Voice and Sing Park -> behind schedule
RAM Skate Park -> behind schedule
Met Park -> effectively closed for years
Main Street Pocket Park -> LOL
I'll believe it when I see it.
We need to have some damn pride in our city.
I mean, this is right on the front steps of City Hall. Perhaps the most important block in the city.
Would Savannah allow something like this? St. Augustine? Nashville? Charlotte?
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpH570j6/FA5-CC362-62-B5-4468-B44-A-C071-C817-C034.jpg)
No. No serious city would allow any of this. We treat this city and its public spaces like our country currently treats our border (that is to say no self-respecting country would allow to happen what we are doing there).
Goes to my lengthy post earlier - I hate saying this and believing this, but I think our wealthy donor class / business leader class in the *private* sector, especially those FROM here and entrenched here, have less pride in this city than their peers do in their other respective cities. I'm shocked the business community allows this to even happen. I can see why the greater F500 business community in this country would want cheap labor through illegal immigration to replace higher waged actual citizens, however, down at the city level I don't understand why they would want to live/operate in a city that looks like crap everywhere. I mean, they did privately spruce up the parks in their own neighborhood (Stockton Park and Baker Point), but downtown? Who goes downtown?
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 25, 2023, 10:33:12 PM
^ Growing up in Jax, aside from the statue and calling it Hemming Park, I always thought the design from the 1960's was decent. Never understood why they ripped up the green spaces and paved over everything multiple times. Maybe we just need to stop being so fancy and go back to simpler times. Those days, the park had a certain "center of a small town" feel to it that was very approachable. Biggest issue I recall was a large population of pigeons :).
Pictures are below are from various time periods to give you a feel for the ambiance that made it into the 60's which appears, to me, to be the first, and maybe, second pictures. The aerial in the third picture claims to be from the 1950's.
Love these pictures. Reminds me of the central plazas you can find at the heart of any Latin American city, big or small. St Augustine's Plaza de la Constitución is a good local example.
Just recreate that and I'd be satisfied.
There are apparently open house events later this week to discuss a Master Plan Update for Jacksonville Parks, "including the next steps for" James Weldon Johnson Park. Thursday afternoon and Friday morning at the Main Library.
https://twitter.com/JWJParkJax/status/1688641550467715072?s=20
Quote from: Tacachale on July 14, 2023, 01:32:57 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on July 12, 2023, 06:31:44 AM
^^^
Simms3 can you post a picture of these three teardowns?
This should be good.
I'm just now seeing this. I don't have an image hosting service any longer, and I don't want to give away my own home, but what what I can tell you is that I live in a boundary between Talbot and Rensselaer and between Park and Randall, which is admittedly not a small area (12 blocks), but y'all can go poke around in there and I'll tell you that on my block (meaning one block long, both sides of road) alone there are 3 easy tear downs, and there are certainly quite a few more in that area. One of these is inhabited by the family of previous owners, passed down, and they're not going anywhere (unfortunately). Another is a rental that is unkempt and the renter is allegedly a drug dealer (we all take turns mowing the lawn and edging). The third I'll explain further down....
Not everything is worth saving and we'd like to see some go. In fact, on my block there is a double lot housing a historic two-story wooden home right now that was taken off the market altogether and is now trying to rent (and having trouble). It's such a disastrous floorplan, and even though it's historic, it would be nice for everyone on the street to have a clean slate, someone with money come in, and build something nice and new that could resell. The whole double lot isn't sodded and mowed, so it's a sea of weeds in there on half of it.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 08, 2023, 05:24:49 PM
There are apparently open house events later this week to discuss a Master Plan Update for Jacksonville Parks, "including the next steps for" James Weldon Johnson Park. Thursday afternoon and Friday morning at the Main Library.
https://twitter.com/JWJParkJax/status/1688641550467715072?s=20
I stopped by this afternoon. There are like a million different options to select from. Hopefully, they have them digitally available soon.
^ was really impressed by the options.
Banding, 99 Trees, and Allee are my 3 favorite concepts.
Not a huge fan of the gigantic led screen on the skyway station, personally.
The recent activity on the Friendship Fountain thread brought this topic back to my mind -- did they ever share the options presented at the open house? I have not been able to find them.
Apparently, there are Open House meetings tonight (Monday 11/6) and tomorrow on the new JWJ Park master plan. However, I can't find anything about either the meeting or the plan online, even on the JWJ Park website.
The city posted (https://x.com/cityofjax/status/1721877042243801193?s=46&t=vkOnzVgzGQzmKS--73ASSg) about yesterday's meeting on Twitter, which you can see some of the proposals from, upon my asking for an uploaded version they responded:
QuoteBoth JWJ Park and the designer are discussing those details. When and if they do get posted, we will be sure to share them with everyone. Thanks!
^What's the timeline on this study's completion? I assume this isn't in the CIP, so any actual changes may be years away still?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on November 07, 2023, 09:19:53 AM
The city posted (https://x.com/cityofjax/status/1721877042243801193?s=46&t=vkOnzVgzGQzmKS--73ASSg) about yesterday's meeting on Twitter, which you can see some of the proposals from, upon my asking for an uploaded version they responded:
QuoteBoth JWJ Park and the designer are discussing those details. When and if they do get posted, we will be sure to share them with everyone. Thanks!
Considering that this is probably the most iconic, historic park/square in the entire city, it's pretty wild that there isn't widespread community and media involvement like there was with Riverfront Plaza. Almost feels like these workshops are being done just to check a box. I work a block away and keep missing these because they're not communicated out properly.
Thanks for posting, Marcus!
Here are a couple of the boards from the tweet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dthG0f3j/F-VWCs0-Wk-AAnp1-H.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcSvmpz0/F-VWCs0-Xw-AAQt-z.jpg)
I actually quite like the LCD board fronting the Skyway Station. It's an easy way to regularly activate the park at night with movies, sporting events, etc. A lot of cities (Miami most recently) are using in-park LCD boards as digital billboards during certain hours of the day, and using the ad revenue exclusively for park upkeep and programming. I'm sure the idea would have detractors, but every single one of these new parks we develop should have mechanisms in place to fund upkeep.
In terms of the above designs, would love to pop in and take a closer look (or have Friends of JWJ share them out, it shouldn't be an "if"), but as I've been saying for years, the absolute best model in the world for this space would be Bryant Park in New York. Active uses on the perimeter, flexible green space in the center that's regularly and seasonally programmed. When you're bounded by the St. James building, Synder Memorial, the Main Library, the Western Union Telegraph building, the Federal Courthouse, the Seminole Building, the Skyway, etc., you don't need to overdesign. Add a real stage, permanent food and beverage options at the north end, open up the retail bays in the Main Library to the street, activate Snyder, and make it a true open gathering spot, versus repeating the mistakes of the past and making it a walkthrough plaza.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 07, 2023, 10:48:29 AM
^What's the timeline on this study's completion? I assume this isn't in the CIP, so any actual changes may be years away still?
No idea on the timeline, details haven't been shared publicly, but nothing in the short term CIP that I know of. $5 million tentatively allocated for 2026/2027.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 07, 2023, 11:00:15 AM
Considering that this is probably the most iconic, historic park/square in the entire city, it's pretty wild that there isn't widespread community and media involvement like there was with Riverfront Plaza. Almost feels like these workshops are being done just to check a box. I work a block away and keep missing these because they're not communicated out properly.
Thanks for posting, Marcus!
Looking at the number of graphics, there's been no expense spared. Hopefully, something good is eventually settled on and is built before 2030.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 07, 2023, 11:15:25 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 07, 2023, 11:00:15 AM
Considering that this is probably the most iconic, historic park/square in the entire city, it's pretty wild that there isn't widespread community and media involvement like there was with Riverfront Plaza. Almost feels like these workshops are being done just to check a box. I work a block away and keep missing these because they're not communicated out properly.
Thanks for posting, Marcus!
Looking at the number of graphics, there's been no expense spared. Hopefully, something good is eventually settled on and is built before 2030.
Fingers crossed!
I believe the study itself had a budget of $1.25 million.
Found another tweet (https://x.com/JWJParkJax/status/1721881494585590271?s=20) from the JWJ Park account with more photos.
some of these renderings and models were available at a parks open house at the library a few months ago - looks like they've expanded some since
Swung by today.
There are only three versions to choose from moving forward, which combined popular aspects of the previous drafts shown in the photo above. All look good, my favorite is Circuit (different than the old version pictured above).
Personally, not a fan of a new, large digital billboard dominating the park and city hall, as depicted. A toned down version could do the job, be a great compliment.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 07, 2023, 11:00:15 AM
In terms of the above designs, would love to pop in and take a closer look (or have Friends of JWJ share them out, it shouldn't be an "if"), but as I've been saying for years, the absolute best model in the world for this space would be Bryant Park in New York. Active uses on the perimeter, flexible green space in the center that's regularly and seasonally programmed. When you're bounded by the St. James building, Synder Memorial, the Main Library, the Western Union Telegraph building, the Federal Courthouse, the Seminole Building, the Skyway, etc., you don't need to overdesign. Add a real stage, permanent food and beverage options at the north end, open up the retail bays in the Main Library to the street, activate Snyder, and make it a true open gathering spot, versus repeating the mistakes of the past and making it a walkthrough plaza.
This! Bryant Park is a great model. Sadly, I don't think JWJ is large enough to pull that off. However, Bryant could be a model for a larger park along the river. Just another reason why we need larger park parcels!
About Bryant Park:
QuoteOccupying 9.6 acres in midtown Manhattan, this park was originally a potter's field. Between 1839 and 1900, it was the site of the Croton Reservoir and Reservoir Square, renamed Bryant Park in honor of William Cullen Bryant in 1884.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on November 08, 2023, 12:09:56 AM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on November 07, 2023, 11:00:15 AM
In terms of the above designs, would love to pop in and take a closer look (or have Friends of JWJ share them out, it shouldn't be an "if"), but as I've been saying for years, the absolute best model in the world for this space would be Bryant Park in New York. Active uses on the perimeter, flexible green space in the center that's regularly and seasonally programmed. When you're bounded by the St. James building, Synder Memorial, the Main Library, the Western Union Telegraph building, the Federal Courthouse, the Seminole Building, the Skyway, etc., you don't need to overdesign. Add a real stage, permanent food and beverage options at the north end, open up the retail bays in the Main Library to the street, activate Snyder, and make it a true open gathering spot, versus repeating the mistakes of the past and making it a walkthrough plaza.
This! Bryant Park is a great model. Sadly, I don't think JWJ is large enough to pull that off. However, Bryant could be a model for a larger park along the river. Just another reason why we need larger park parcels!
About Bryant Park:
QuoteOccupying 9.6 acres in midtown Manhattan, this park was originally a potter's field. Between 1839 and 1900, it was the site of the Croton Reservoir and Reservoir Square, renamed Bryant Park in honor of William Cullen Bryant in 1884.
I was in New York again for a couple of days last week and worked a morning or two from Bryant Park, and I really think the model could work and would be the ideal usage for what is perhaps Jacksonville's single most important block.
When you think of a block bound by City Hall, the Public Library, the Skyway, and the Federal Courthouse, and how it could have managed to fail for the past 50 years despite having the best surrounding context in the city, it's because we've treated it as a passthrough plaza, versus a truly civic space designed to get the community to gather and spend time together.
That's why it's disheartening that there's been so little mass public involvement with the redesign, and also why it's disheartening that nearly all of the final design choices don't really treat JWJ as the gathering spot that has made it iconic dating back to the Civil War. Rather, most of the design choices seem to be centered on a place to walk laps, commemorate, or reflect, as shown below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcSvmpz0/F-VWCs0-Xw-AAQt-z.jpg)
On Bryant Park specifically, for years, every time I'm up there, I just can't help notice all the similarities between Bryant and JWJ. The layout. The history of blight. The similarities with the surrounding context. Both fronted by their city's main public library on one end, and a mass transit stop on the other.
A quick note on the size differences. Even though James Weldon Johnson Park has maybe 2.2 acres of space if you recapture the on-street parking on the south, east, and west sides of the park, and Bryant Park is listed as 9.6 acres:
1) The massive New York Public Library and is entrance is considered to be part of the park, and counts toward that acreage
2) With the differences in population and density, you just wouldn't need the same scale, particularly on the perimeters and with the central lawn.
For context, here's JWJ's size overlayed on Bryant Park:
(https://snipboard.io/C5apjt.jpg)
Totally think you could scale down the concept of what makes Bryant Park a great gathering spot and apply it to James Weldon Johnson park in a way that makes the space relevant and unique 365 days a year.
To me, I'd lay it out like this:
(https://snipboard.io/PDcGly.jpg)
Some notes, Bryant vs. JWJ Park:
Main Library Frontage/Outdoor Reading Room/Restored Retail Bays(https://snipboard.io/hPreRX.jpg)
The City and Friends of JWJ should look closely at how Bryant Park partners with the New York Public Library main branch to truly make the park an extension of the neighboring library. The sidewalks in front of our Main Library are so wide and sprawling that it would not be difficult at all to open the library to the street adjacent to the park, add seating, and feature seasonally curated book racks that can be read freely by those using the park. Like everything else in the park (or any park), the city should look for a corporate sponsor for the area. Here's Bryant Park's outdoor reading area, in conjunction with the NY Public Library:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ee_AY0lWoAEd2Ub.jpg)
For larger events, like readings, the larger park could be leveraged:
(https://bryantpark.org/images/cache/assets/uploads/images/general/BookClub8.26.21creditAngelitoJusay_.18-900x600.jpg)
There's just so much untapped opportunity to strengthen that partnership between JWJP and the Public Library, better program the larger park area, and help enrich our culture, literacy, and appreciation of our shared history.
Additionally, with limited acreage within the park, there's absolutely no reason that any redesign of James Weldon Johnson Park shouldn't include reactivating the Main Street Library's two retail bays fronting the park and exploring every opportunity to turn Snyder Memorial into an active use (bar, restaurant, live music venue, etc.).
Perimeter Gate, Art(https://snipboard.io/DKXzei.jpg)
In terms of creating a physical boundary surrounding the park, others might disagree, but I think it's brilliant how Bryant Park is above grade, and enclosed by a (nice) gate around the perimeter. Not only does it give the park a sense of being its own place (rather than a walkthrough), but it also allows the park to be better secured and closed off if need be.
Here she is last week:
(https://snipboard.io/G9pDSc.jpg)
(https://snipboard.io/w0gBDx.jpg)
I don't think the park necessarily needs to be elevated like Bryant Park, but I do think something as simple as having a perimeter gate puts you in a better position to secure the park and, even more importantly, allows you to fund its continued upkeep by giving you the ability to close it off for occasional private events.
I'm also a sucker for having some sort of central art piece or fountain at the front entrance to the park as well.
Here's Bryant Park's fountain:
(https://snipboard.io/zU1qGk.jpg)
Friends of Hemming Park got absolutely dragged through the mud back in like 2018 for suggesting an expensive antique carousel as a long-term goal, but I thought the idea was brilliant.
Central Flex Space(https://snipboard.io/EG2awl.jpg)
Unlike the rigid designs featured in many of the proposed revamps for JWJ, in the interest of making the park a true civic gathering spot, as appropriate for a Presidential speech as it is for a spring farmer's market as it is for sunbathing in the summer as it is for a concert in the fall as it is for ice skating in the winter, I really think we should rebuild the park with maximum flexibility in mind.
We don't need the full scale of the Bryant Park central lawn to recognize what a key part it plays in the park's success.
Here it was last week:
(https://snipboard.io/Zt1vny.jpg)
Here it is on a random day with light-weight movable furniture in place:
(https://bryantpark.org/images/cache/assets/uploads/images/general/General_and_hort_-_2016-05-18_-_Angelito_Jusay_Photography_104-1200x800.jpg)
Here it is for a movie night:
(https://offloadmedia.feverup.com/secretnyc.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/25093508/bryparkmovies1-1024x683.jpg)
I just don't see the same flexibility with a lot of these designs proposed and reviewed in a handful of poorly advertised public workshops (during working hours):
(https://snipboard.io/Oltqr5.jpg)
Instead, they're rigid and fixed.
Sponsored Stage, Semi-Permanent Food and Beverage Spaces(https://snipboard.io/zi3eTV.jpg)
Another thing that Friends of Hemming Park (the original incarnation) really got right was the need for a permanent, sponsored stage. They had a $100k commitment in place from Community First before we canceled the whole idea because they were courting sponsors at Black Sheep. Again, this not only provides a permanent amenity that you can program around, but opens the door for limited revenue generation as well.
Here's Bryant Park's stage in the spring:
(https://cms.prod.nypr.digital/images/330746/fill-1200x800%7Cformat-webp%7Cwebpquality-85/)
(https://snipboard.io/zZRNyo.jpg)
Doesn't need to be large enough to host the Stones or Taylor Swift, but if you could bring in acts comparable to what the Landing was doing, or host the symphony, or have an annual local battle of the bands, or whatever, it's consistent programming getting people excited about the park and breathing life deep into the heart of the CBD.
Similarly, having semi-permanent food and beverage options in the park (like the OG Friends of Hemming Park were working on with the Black Sheep group) would go a long way toward establishing the park as an anchor civic space where you can always count on certain things being there. Wouldn't need to be elaborate, expensive, or large.
Here are some examples from Bryant Park:
(https://snipboard.io/8ESi3y.jpg)
(https://snipboard.io/MKYHhm.jpg)
Similar to what we're talking about with the Riverwalk, this would also present the opportunity to serve alcohol, in branded cups, in an enclosed area, with a portion of proceeds being pumped right back into keeping the park clean and programming it regularly.
Seating/Retail Bays:
(https://snipboard.io/KxDABa.jpg)
Even though Jacksonville's central business district is not Midtown Manhattan, like Bryant Park, JWJP should serve as the area's town square.
Whether it be food trucks or relatively low-cost stalls like the ones at Bryant Park below that you could rent out on the cheap for arts markets, farmers markets, seasonal concessions, special events, etc, just having that continuous, dependable, rotating retail presence (particularly on weekends) gives people a reason to come back. Look at how successful Riverside Arts Market has become. A huge part of that simply comes down to locals knowing that, without fail, they can go down to RAM on a Saturday morning and have plenty of choices available to them.
(https://snipboard.io/ZbiptP.jpg)
In terms of seating, I also love how Bryant Park has the combination of branded shaded tables to lend to that sense of place (Hemming Park had quite a few of these years ago but moved away from them) and lightweight movable furniture for flexibility based on what's going on in the park.
(https://bryantpark.org/images/cache/assets/uploads/images/general/1168-2_GameSocials_5-11-2016_AngelitoJusay-790x598.jpg)
(https://snipboard.io/WXiMjO.jpg)
All of this is just a needlessly long way of saying that:
1) We should think of James Weldon Johnson Park as what it truly is, and has been historically - Jacksonville's town square
2) Thus, JWJP's central purpose shouldn't be for commemorating, or reflecting, or wandering through gardens alone with our thoughts
3) Instead, JWJP should be redesigned with one concrete purpose in mind - to provide a compelling reason for locals to gather in the heart of the city, 365 days a year, and engage with each other in meaningful activity and discourse
Bryant Park is such a great model for this.
And, like anything else, we get exactly one chance to get it right.
Deeply upsets me how badly the general public has been iced out of the discussions.
Great post! Would you mind if we packaged this up as a front page Jaxson Jax Today editorial?
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2023, 08:16:22 PM
Great post! Would you mind if we packaged this up as a front page Jaxson Jax Today editorial?
Thanks Lake!
Package away!
Just saw this in a Scenic Jax Facebook post. This is TOMORROW (Wednesday, April 3)
Quote
James Weldon Johnson Park
·
This Wednesday join the Jacksonville Parks Department and James Weldon Johnson Park for another open house at the Main Branch of the Jacksonville Public Library to see and share the latest updates for the planned redesign of James Weldon Johnson Park.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 02, 2024, 06:16:34 PM
Just saw this in a Scenic Jax Facebook post. This is TOMORROW (Wednesday, April 3)
Quote
James Weldon Johnson Park
·
This Wednesday join the Jacksonville Parks Department and James Weldon Johnson Park for another open house at the Main Branch of the Jacksonville Public Library to see and share the latest updates for the planned redesign of James Weldon Johnson Park.
Was anyone able to make it to this?
I wasn't able to make it. Other than this post, I didn't see any promotion. I look forward to hearing the opinion of someone who was able to attend.
Here's the Action News story - https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/duval-county/jacksonvilles-james-weldon-johnson-park-being-remodeled-after-47-years/UGPBJJVLEBGCLD73NYJSWFB6QM/
Below is the 60% Design Schematic that was presented at the meeting, with additional renderings available in the News4Jax gallery here: https://www.news4jax.com/community/2024/04/04/james-weldon-johnson-park-to-get-a-new-look-for-the-first-time-since-1977
(https://res.cloudinary.com/graham-media-group/image/upload/f_auto/q_auto/c_scale,w_1200/v1/media/gmg/ONG2WSGRDJGYZLSEDBXUTUYJV4.jpeg?_a=AJFJtWIA)
I deeply admire the passion and hard work from the group working on this, while still strongly believing that the 9-square concept severely limits the flexibility and enforceability of the park. The design will obviously continue to evolve, it's ultimately the city's decision, and programming is a huge, vitally important, yet unknown aspect, but there's just a certain sense of gravitas missing from the renderings.
That feeling you get when you walk through Savannah's Squares. Or when you walk through a place like Bryant Park, or Memorial Park in Riverside.
What's presented is a beautiful park, no doubt. But this is our city's oldest, most hallowed public space.
There's also the question of value proposition.
As in, if you're a family looking to spend the afternoon in one of Jacksonville's downtown parks, what is JWJP's hook, as presented in the renderings? Riverfront Plaza has the water, the children's playground, and the cafe/restaurant. RiversEdge will be focused on health and exercise. Artist's Walk will feature the largest public skate park in the city. Friendship Park will have the massive fountain and, eventually, the children's pirate ship/splash zone. Shipyards West will have an artificial beach, recreational activities, and a food hall.
Based on the renderings, what is the it-factor that can only be experienced at JWJP? Are any of the individual nodes strong enough to act as a magnet, drawing people away from the riverfront and into the central city?
Broken record, but to me, that it-factor comes from maximizing flexibility, seasonal programming, and returning JWJP/Hemming/City Park to its rightful place as Jacksonville's central civic gathering spot. Not sure how you do that with a quarter of an acre surrounded by pocket biomes.
No public restrooms or food and beverage component?
"Pine Trees"?!?! At least there are no Palm Trees
Only 3 (or so) Flowering Trees?
I see the key for "brise soleil walls" (which I had to look up*), but I don't see that symbol within the park.
Is the Water Garden located directly across the street from the main entrance to City Hall as a way to limit or control demonstrations at the front door?
Did other renderings at the meeting show seating - type, quantity, location?
Quote
* - Brise soleil, sometimes brise-soleil, is an architectural feature of a building that reduces heat gain within that building by deflecting sunlight. The system allows low-level sun to enter a building in the mornings, evenings and during winter but cuts out direct light during summer. Wikipedia
Wonder if it would be feasible to close the sections of Duval and Monroe streets bypassing the park? Would enlarge the park but also enhance its pedestrian ambiance given it isn't all that big of an area to begin with. Monroe already is an impaired pathway with the courthouse and Duval is heavily confined in front of City Hall so wouldn't think it would disrupt vehicle flow that much. Could save the street paving for food trucks or event kiosks/tents too.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 06, 2024, 07:18:27 AM
No public restrooms or food and beverage component?
There are restrooms are at the Skyway stop, plan is to make those public. And I believe some part of the park is supposed to be food truck compatible.
Feels like it's trying to be too many things in too small of a space.
As others have said, just shamelessly rip off Bryant Park and call it a day.
This is one rendering I hope doesn't come to fruition, as is.
Hopefully, no one is taking food truck talk seriously, as a form of activation or improvement. Those can be pulled up on the street now. The place (downtown in general) really needs every day economic activity. Hopefully, they can get those Skyway stop restrooms open now, as opposed to waiting for a few million to upgrade the park.
For years, I was the "vagrancy is an exaggerated problem downtown" guy.
There had always been transient folk downtown, but I was never personally approached and they just seemed to mind their own business.
I've mentioned it over the last six months or so, but there's just something different and unhinged in the air lately. Feels like a crapshoot sometimes as to whether or not you're going to have your life threatened when walking through the park or by the main library, particularly in the early morning or early evening. Same thing on Hogan Street.
Very few police to be seen, people constantly screaming at each other and passersby, just feels like we're on the verge of something tragic happening.
There's so little vibrancy on the streets these days that the whole vibe can come across Walking Dead-ish, like the CBD has been abandoned to the vagrants. Guitar dude singing to the clouds. Sidewalk lady sprawled out unconscious. Fentanyl guy staggering down Duval Street into traffic. Racist catcalls flying in every direction, toward every group.
An unpoliceable passive park with limited flexibility, no permanent economic activity, and a million hiding spots is going to be like pouring gasoline onto the fire. There's just no universe where this new design concept - which does almost nothing to attempt to draw the outside community in - isn't overtaken by vagrants almost immediately.
I continue to strongly believe that the best way to combat this issue and return JWJ Park to its rightful spot as our city's key civic space is to design a park that is lively, active, flexible, regularly programmed, has fixed restaurant/retail/restroom features, is easily policeable via clear sightlines, is built with revenue-generation in mind, and has some form of light physical barriers to allow opening and closing of the park and to keep those who break the rules out.
The site is truly ground zero if we want to turn downtown around, but it feels like an afterthought to the riverfront parks that exist largely in isolation.
Truly on the verge of another 50-year mistake with this one.
How does this new design drive revenue? How does it foster a sense of security for patrons? What's there's to do 365 days a year if someone decides to drop in? What makes it unique from any other park in the city? How do you keep proven bad actors out?
This space should be puling in thousands of people a week and catalyzing surrounding business and development.
I just don't see anything in the new design that does this.
I was thinking the same thing Ken. I don't work or live in downtown. I do however live and work very close to downtown and frequent regularly (although definitely less than a few years ago). I looked over this plan and there is not one thing in the plan that would make me want to visit, I can't imagine how it would draw someone that is an infrequent visitor.
I'm sure my opinion is looked at negatively, but I do live downtown & there really isn't any lack of park or open space. There's a lack of safe urban space, and it makes many of this cities best assets unvisited. I'm critical of the large emphasis we have on new park spaces in downtown, when much of our downtown is literally vacant. I personally think most of it will be pointless. Even the Riverwalk struggles at times to remain safe.
Quote from: CG7 on May 03, 2024, 10:03:22 AM
I was thinking the same thing Ken. I don't work or live in downtown. I do however live and work very close to downtown and frequent regularly (although definitely less than a few years ago). I looked over this plan and there is not one thing in the plan that would make me want to visit, I can't imagine how it would draw someone that is an infrequent visitor.
Even though it's green, it's almost feels more like the failed plaza-style design (meant to be walked through or to serve as a quick break between places) than a destination park.
If you overlay the design on top of the existing space, you can really see how crowded and inflexible it all becomes in practice.
(https://snipboard.io/ytdbks.jpg)
Isolating the "Great Lawn" demonstrates just how little of the park will be available for events or programming.
(https://snipboard.io/PVp3Eu.jpg)
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 03, 2024, 10:24:29 AM
I'm sure my opinion is looked at negatively, but I do live downtown & there really isn't any lack of park or open space. There's a lack of safe urban space, and it makes many of this cities best assets unvisited. I'm critical of the large emphasis we have on new park spaces in downtown, when much of our downtown is literally vacant. I personally think most of it will be pointless. Even the Riverwalk struggles at times to remain safe.
What makes JWJ different though is that it's not surrounded by vacancy. In terms of surrounding context, it's easily the best location in the urban core in terms of building an active, vibrant park, with surrounding uses feeding into the park, and the park feeding into surrounding uses.
Right, but was it really worth the effort of closing & revamping this park when DT's issue are much more pressing than revitalizing park space? It's a waste of money, focus & effort that could be used elsewhere.
Where's the retail/cafe component? If there isn't one inside the space bounded by the surrounding streets, then the park plan should be expanded to include the outer square of spaces facing it. As for the park plan itself, it has a ton of things trying to be squeezed into it. Perhaps keeping it simple is the best approach.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 03, 2024, 10:37:12 AM
Right, but was it really worth the effort of closing & revamping this park when DT's issue are much more pressing than revitalizing park space? It's a waste of money, focus & effort that could be used elsewhere.
I couldn't disagree with this more. Downtown isn't perfect, but that doesn't mean we put park designs on hold until it is. We can hopefully walk and chew gum at the same time. We have more than enough resources to both renovate and revitalize this space as well as addressing other problems in the core. Moreover, a well done park with activation around it will be part of the solution to improve downtown.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 03, 2024, 11:59:29 AM
Where's the retail/cafe component? If there isn't one inside the space bounded by the surrounding streets, then the park plan should be expanded to include the outer square of spaces facing it. As for the park plan itself, it has a ton of things trying to be squeezed into it. Perhaps keeping it simple is the best approach.
I believe food trucks are supposed to be able to gather at the southwest corner, unless I'm mistaken.
Totally agree - a simple, classic, traditional design would be appropriate for the literal town square surrounded by formal buildings. Feels like a good park, wrong place.
But then again, I'm not Walter Hood.
Food trucks are not an answer. That's an activation cope out, imo. If we're dropping big bucks on spaces like this, I'm a believer of applying best practices.
I thought the park was supposed to extend to the Library/MOCA block face, with the cafe spaces extending onto the sidewalks.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 03, 2024, 04:18:22 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 03, 2024, 10:37:12 AM
Right, but was it really worth the effort of closing & revamping this park when DT's issue are much more pressing than revitalizing park space? It's a waste of money, focus & effort that could be used elsewhere.
I couldn't disagree with this more. Downtown isn't perfect, but that doesn't mean we put park designs on hold until it is. We can hopefully walk and chew gum at the same time. We have more than enough resources to both renovate and revitalize this space as well as addressing other problems in the core. Moreover, a well done park with activation around it will be part of the solution to improve downtown.
That's fine. In reality, we don't have unlimited resources, and our infrastructure is evidence of that. Man hours & a lot of money are being spent for these "world-class" park spaces that were already functioning city assets. People are more concerned with park design & flow, than the actual issues of what's going on DT. Blight can take over the most amazing park space in the world. We still have zero activation (restaurants, food huts, etc.) in all of our DT parks... simple opportunities being wasted. We don't need a study to conclude that.
Like all renderings, everything is made to look wonderful. If I were the City planner, I would want to see successful examples of the features in this park.
Right off the bat, I notice that the Children's Garden isn't fenced. What playground today doesn't have a fence around it, especially a smaller space abutting busy streets and sidewalks with "strangers" passing by? I don't know many mom's - or dads - that would feel good with a wide open space like this and little kids running wild.
While I love the vegetation, it appears much of it, along with the raised mounds, could provide cover for "lurkers," especially at night. Again, I would think especially women would feel uncomfortable walking through these areas alone.
And those gaming chairs... how long before they disappear. Sad to say, but the only likely durable seating would be low level "retaining walls" wide enough to sit on. I didn't see any of these in the renderings.
Other than some scattered trees, I don't see any small shelter for someone to dodge a short summer shower or temporarily get relief from the hot sun. And, if there are no public restrooms nearby, the surrounding businesses are going to be pestered by bathroom users or people are going to excrete somewhere in the park.
Just seems much of this concept needs to be "road tested" with real world users including the pathways. I remember visiting one Florida university campus that waited to put sidewalks in on their new "greens" for a few months to see what walk paths students created. They then went back and poured sidewalks where the lawn was worn. That told me that no matter the best of intentions, there is nothing like observing actual human behavior when building something out like this.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 06, 2024, 01:54:33 AM
There's also the question of value proposition.
As in, if you're a family looking to spend the afternoon in one of Jacksonville's downtown parks, what is JWJP's hook, as presented in the renderings? Riverfront Plaza has the water, the children's playground, and the cafe/restaurant. RiversEdge will be focused on health and exercise. Artist's Walk will feature the largest public skate park in the city. Friendship Park will have the massive fountain and, eventually, the children's pirate ship/splash zone. Shipyards West will have an artificial beach, recreational activities, and a food hall.
Based on the renderings, what is the it-factor that can only be experienced at JWJP? Are any of the individual nodes strong enough to act as a magnet, drawing people away from the riverfront and into the central city?
Broken record, but to me, that it-factor comes from maximizing flexibility, seasonal programming, and returning JWJP/Hemming/City Park to its rightful place as Jacksonville's central civic gathering spot. Not sure how you do that with a quarter of an acre surrounded by pocket biomes.
This exactly. I understand from a functional perspective for daily downtown users that the walk-through Plaza we had didn't enliven the space, but I enjoyed the fountains and uniqueness when we'd travel downtown for an event.
If I want a nature trail experience, I'm not headed downtown. There are far bigger, more natural, more convenient, and
safer opportunities throughout the city to enjoy a leisurely stroll or nature walk. For downtown residents, the Emerald Trail will offer a more robust product to fulfill that recreation.
Some of the ideas floated, like an LED board, signature fountain, food/retail bays participating in the specialty zone, and integration with the library would be unique and cool and make spending an hour or two worthwhile.
That's also a whole lotta pine trees. Likely desirable for their fast growth, but not (in my opinion) very attractive trees outside of a large forest. They're disease-prone and messy.
Of all the parks in progress, I'm most excited for the Shipyards and Friendship Park. I agree that JWJ as envisioned is unlikely to induce us to wander away from the riverfront on its own merits.
Finally, several comments here are mentioning safety. There is no proactive policing or security downtown unless there's a large formal event. Even a bustling area like Five Points was basically the wild west until things got so bad they had to reactively step up a police presence. My limited dealings with JSO have led me to believe they are primarily reactive call-takers and report-writers (if they show up at all!), and this is not going to be effective downtown.